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Old 09-02-2006, 12:45 AM   #1
Skywalker
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Default ISH Debate Tourney- Round 1: HALL and OATES vs. hot sizzle

These two are debating what is more important to a team? Big time perimeter scorers or shutdown perimeter defenders?

Side debating perimter defenders are more important
In the nba today, there are a lot of scorers and players that can put the ball in hole, however defense is lacking. Everything starts with defense, whether it’s making a steal or contesting a shot. Being able to shut down your opposition gives you great leverage in getting better opportunities for your team and getting more chances on the offensive end.

In terms of winning, having a perimeter player who can shut down the opposition is more important than having a swingman that can score:

*Defending the perimeter doesn’t just prevent points to the other team, it disrupts passing lanes, changes the flow the game, and provides for key fastbreak points.
*Offense can come and go, but defense is constant as long as the player tries.
*Defense will generate offense and having a perimeter shutdown player will provide for more efficient offense.
*Defense calls for instincts and passion while by practicing.. a ball player can become a decent scorer.
*Defensive players are rare
*A defensive player can often shut down a big time scorer, and disrupt the opponent’s gameplan.
*A defensive player often has a pretty good feel for the game and is fundamentally sound.


Side debating perimeter scorers are more important
Perimeter scorers are more valuable then a shut down perimeter defenders. Why you ask? Well for one How many guys are able to go out on the court and hit shots like nothing compared to good perimeter defenders? About equal but the part that makes the perimeter scorers more important is they can change the face of the game within a matter of seconds.
Don’t believe me? I have a name for you …Tracy McGrady. He can take the offensive load by himself and shoot over the best defenders the league has to offer. Lets remember back about a year ago when Houston was in a was behind in a big game and who comes to there rescue? Tracy McGrady . The man took control of the game because he can shoot from the perimeter at a high percentage and did it over one of the best perimeter defenders our game has to offer. He shook Bruce Bowen time and time again even forcing him to have a help defender to help every time (Tim Duncan/Tony Parker). So proving even the best can’t handle a great shooter. Tracy really opened up so many more options for players by hitting a few shots.
Ok pretend the whole NBA had a mock draft and you could choose between any great perimeter defenders or shooters to have on your team. Any GM would take there great perimeter shooters first. Ray Allen or Bruce Bowen? Kobe Bryant or Raja Bell? Chauncey Billups or Steve Nash. I mean that basically what we are comparing.

Another reason why a great perimeter defender isn’t as important as a great shooter is because today’s game is more about team defense and not individual defense. Ask any of the great coaches. Look at the Phoenix Suns, they have one of the great perimeter defenders in Raja Bell, but can he stop the whole team by himself? Nope. The most important fact on my side of the argument is the hand checking rule that is in place now. This rule enables players to swipe or rest one arm on a shooter while guarding making it much harder to stop shooters. That’s why you need good big man help defenders. Not so much great perimeter because even they are prown to getting snubbed by the new rule, making there defensive less of a importance. Man to Man defensive was much more important 8-10 years ago, but now it isn’t so much because it’s been learned through so many teams that if your frontcourt defenders aren’t great then you team won’t be a good defensive team. That’s why we see so many bad defensive teams today. Because of this, so in able to have a good defensive team you have to have good defenders all around not just one superior one
If any defender on a team is important it is the low post defenders or defenders in the paint. Look at the Pistons and what they did when Ben Wallace was peaking at his prime. Defense starts from the inside. If you have poor inside defenders then what’s the since in having a good perimeter defender. The Bulls proved that last year in the playoffs

Lets not just focus on the individual part of a player’s perimeter game but rather its affect on the team. A great perimeter defender gives your big men rest and lets the others sit back while the great perimeter defender stops the great shooter. That’s cool but back on the other side where’s the offense from this player? Is he worn out or is it that he just can’t plain shoot? Probably both. Sorry to say but history shows that great perimeter players don’t nearly amount as much on the offensive side as the defensive side. Bowen, Rodman, Debusschere all had a poor offensive game .They all had poor free throw shooting throw out there whole careers.
Perimeter scorers are superstars. They are the ones that team pay big bucks for not great perimeter defenders. Teams are throwing large contracts to any player that can shoot the all. Guys like Bowen, Battier and A. Griffin not so much . Even a guy like say Josh Howard will get paid more because he is a good perimeter defender but he would get more if he developed a better perimeter game rather then perimeter defense.
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Old 09-02-2006, 01:10 AM   #2
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when do we start debating???
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Old 09-02-2006, 02:24 AM   #3
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whenever you want. now.
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:02 AM   #4
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In terms of winning, having a perimeter player who can shut down the opposition is more important than having a swingman that can score



^^^

Just one defender won't cut it son. A good shooter can light up a game within a matter of a few postions more then one player that tries to play good defense.

Quote:
*Defending the perimeter doesn’t just prevent points to the other team, it disrupts passing lanes, changes the flow the game, and provides for key fastbreak points.


Again that good and all but what if you're other perimeter defender bites the big one and lets someone by? It then relys on the big men to help out. Big men playing solid defense on the inside makes a hole lot more difference then perimeter defenders on the outside. Where do most points come from? The inside.

Quote:
Offense can come and go, but defense is constant as long as the player tries.


Having one good defender isn't isn't going to change much. The Pistons for example or spurs have a couple of good or great perimeter defenders not just one.

[quote]Defense will generate offense and having a perimeter shutdown player will provide for more efficient offense. [quote]


Agreed there but great offense is just as good because it allows players to get back on defense to.


Quote:
A defensive player can often shut down a big time scorer, and disrupt the opponent’s gameplan.


Name one defensive player that can do this night in and night out just as much as Kobe Bryant scoring 30 nightly or even Lebron James. You can't. Even Bruce Bowen has nights where the scorer is just to great for him to contend with especially with the new hand checking rule.


Quote:
A defensive player often has a pretty good feel for the game and is fundamentally sound.


This statement to me kind of is irrelevant because often a defensive player doesn"t have a fundametally sound game. Jesus Christ Bruce Bowen can only hit open threes and thats about it on offense , no fundamentals used there.

Last edited by HALLandOATES : 09-02-2006 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:03 AM   #5
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got off to a slow start but it was jus the opening statement..here we go.

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Perimeter scorers are more valuable then a shut down perimeter defenders. Why you ask? Well for one How many guys are able to go out on the court and hit shots like nothing compared to good perimeter defenders? About equal but the part that makes the perimeter scorers more important is they can change the face of the game within a matter of seconds
.

Defensive players are a lot more rare..you don’t see many ron artests, bruce Bowens. Moreover, how many PGs do you see that are like kirk hinrich/Jason Kidd…

Quote:
Don’t believe me? I have a name for you …Tracy McGrady. He can take the offensive load by himself and shoot over the best defenders the league has to offer. Lets remember back about a year ago when Houston was in a was behind in a big game and who comes to there rescue? Tracy McGrady . The man took control of the game because he can shoot from the perimeter at a high percentage and did it over one of the best perimeter defenders our game has to offer. He shook Bruce Bowen time and time again even forcing him to have a help defender to help every time (Tim Duncan/Tony Parker). So proving even the best can’t handle a great shooter. Tracy really opened up so many more options for players by hitting a few shots.

That is one situation. I have a counter example. Back in 2002, Kobe Bryant had an amazing streak of 40 point games (9 in a row)..then came some called Ron Artest who held Kobe to 17 or 19 points something like that and pacers won the game. Artest’s determination along with his tenacious perimeter defense was able to bug Kobe in every way.

Quote:
Ok pretend the whole NBA had a mock draft and you could choose between any great perimeter defenders or shooters to have on your team. Any GM would take there great perimeter shooters first. Ray Allen or Bruce Bowen? Kobe Bryant or Raja Bell? Chauncey Billups or Steve Nash. I mean that basically what we are comparing.

Well ok, kobe Bryant going up against Raja bell isn’t a fair comparison. Kobe was all nba 1st defensive team and all nba 1st team while raja was on none. Steve nash is not a big time scorer but rather a prolific pure PG...ill give you ray ray over bowen but anyways if there is a draft held, players like kobe,bron,wade,tmac will be picked up first yes, but they do a lot more than score..they are all well rounded..in any case scenario when you put up a well rounded player like kobe,tmac,bron against a one dimensional player in raja…of course any sane person would take the former.

Quote:
Another reason why a great perimeter defender isn’t as important as a great shooter is because today’s game is more about team defense and not individual defense. Ask any of the great coaches. Look at the Phoenix Suns, they have one of the great perimeter defenders in Raja Bell, but can he stop the whole team by himself? Nope.

Raja cant stop a whole team by himself, but he can stop a perimeter scorer by himself. He gives Pheonix Suns a chance at a rebound and a fastbreak opportunity which they thrive on. True, that team defense is more important than individual defense but that’s not the argument here. Having a player that can shut down opposing players and play tough defense will provide for your team as a whole and makes it easier on your big men.

Quote:
The most important fact on my side of the argument is the hand checking rule that is in place now. This rule enables players to swipe or rest one arm on a shooter while guarding making it much harder to stop shooters. That’s why you need good big man help defenders. Not so much great perimeter because even they are prown to getting snubbed by the new rule, making there defensive less of a importance. Man to Man defensive was much more important 8-10 years ago, but now it isn’t so much because it’s been learned through so many teams that if your frontcourt defenders aren’t great then you team won’t be a good defensive team. That’s why we see so many bad defensive teams today. Because of this, so in able to have a good defensive team you have to have good defenders all around not just one superior one

The handchecking rule that’s in place now actually favors my argument. By today’s rules, its a lot easier for a perimeter player to put up points…hell, there was 10 players last year averaging 25+ pts..all of them are perimeter oriented. The new rules make it so defenders are less favored, making it that much harder to find a tenacious hard nosed defensive player…

Quote:
If any defender on a team is important it is the low post defenders or defenders in the paint. Look at the Pistons and what they did when Ben Wallace was peaking at his prime. Defense starts from the inside. If you have poor inside defenders then what’s the since in having a good perimeter defender. The Bulls proved that last year in the playoffs. Lets not just focus on the individual part of a player’s perimeter game but rather its affect on the team. A great perimeter defender gives your big men rest and lets the others sit back while the great perimeter defender stops the great shooter. That’s cool but back on the other side where’s the offense from this player? Is he worn out or is it that he just can’t plain shoot? Probably both. Sorry to say but history shows that great perimeter players don’t nearly amount as much on the offensive side as the defensive side. Bowen, Rodman, Debusschere all had a poor offensive game .They all had poor free throw shooting throw out there whole careers.

Players like rodman and bowen were key players in helping their respective teams to win. You talked about how it helps the team as a whole. When you have one dedicated player that plays hard tenacious defense and takes the role of guarding superstar players…your offensive players dont have to work as much thus being more effective. Moreover, a defensive player will disrupt passing lanes, create steals/blocks, change the tempo of the game and always gives your team that mental edge…opposition knows they will have a tough matchup and always has that certain player on their mind. you cant see this on the box score but its there..
Quote:
Perimeter scorers are superstars. They are the ones that team pay big bucks for not great perimeter defenders. Teams are throwing large contracts to any player that can shoot the all. Guys like Bowen, Battier and A. Griffin not so much . Even a guy like say Josh Howard will get paid more because he is a good perimeter defender but he would get more if he developed a better perimeter game rather then perimeter defense

Perimeter scorers are superstars because most of them do more than score and because fans came to see points being scored anyways. They didn’t come to see someone D up and prevent points. Any championship team has a tenacious perimeter defender but nor every championship team has a big time perimeter scorer…see pistons, spurs

I think you're missing a point here...theres a difference between perimeter scorers and perimeter superstars. perimtere scorers solely score the ball in bunches and are less rounded. players like ray allen, jason richardson, michael redd..those are scorers. moreover, the league is full of average defenders or poor defenders, most of your points are suggesting that any defender will do...we're talkin about shut down defenders here

An important point here that I would like to discuss, perimeter scorers may seem more important than perimeter defenders but you have to realize players like guys like allen,jrich,redd and even guys like kobe,tmac,bron can score that much because there isn’t that many good perimeter players in the league. The league is lacking good perimeter defensive players and the handcheckin rule isn’t helping. you average swingman today gives you 22,23 pts..

You can still see the effects of the great perimeter defensive players today...ron artest carryin the kings on his back and pretty much causing havoc to any scorer he goes up against, bruce bowen give spurs a lift with his defense i.e. holding kobe to a bad FG%..etc. the problem is there aren’t that many good perimeter defensive players that we often forget how important defense really is and how rare…

Last edited by hotsizzle : 09-02-2006 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 04:22 AM   #6
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Yea I posted alot for the first topic but basically I just let everything out right there which kind of gives you the advantage.If my style of writing gets to confusing just let me know sizzle and Ill change it .

Quote:
Defensive players are a lot more rare..you don’t see many ron artests, bruce Bowens. Moreover, how many PGs do you see that are like kirk hinrich/Jason Kidd

Yes they are I'll agree on that. But that still doesn't make them more important than a guy who score 30 points per game at any given time from behind the line or back 17 feet from the basket.



Quote:
That is one situation. I have a counter example. Back in 2002, Kobe Bryant had an amazing streak of 40 point games (9 in a row)..then came some called Ron Artest who held Kobe to 17 or 19 points something like that and pacers won the game. Artest’s determination along with his tenacious perimeter defense was able to bug Kobe in every way.


True . We could use examples all night long until Shogun looses his virginity.Point proven there but there are justas many if not more examples of offensive machines lighting up a game rather defensive players stopping a game.

One example being Lebron James scoring 44 points on Bowen.Another example being the guy he supposivly shuts down. Ray had a game where he had about 35 points in a win verse the Spurs. So you can go back and forth all night on players best defensive or offensive nights.


Quote:
Well ok, kobe Bryant going up against Raja bell isn’t a fair comparison. Kobe was all nba 1st defensive team and all nba 1st team while raja was on none. Steve nash is not a big time scorer but rather a prolific pure PG...ill give you ray ray over bowen but anyways if there is a draft held, players like kobe,bron,wade,tmac will be picked up first yes, but they do a lot more than score..they are all well rounded..in any case scenario when you put up a well rounded player like kobe,tmac,bron against a one dimensional player in raja…of course any sane person would take the former.



Raja has some offensive game , a little more then avg. I would say and Kobe, Wade and Tmac probably have a little better defense then a average player. So I would say they match up pretty well. Offense is looked upon as more valuable in todays NBA where fewer points are scored. Sorry to get off topic because it seems like we arguing which is better offense or Defense. Let me ask you this Sizz , Do you think Perimeter defenders are more important then Inside Defenders? I mean once you get past the first line of defense you have to have someone who can stop that person.

Quote:
Raja cant stop a whole team by himself, but he can stop a perimeter scorer by himself. He gives Pheonix Suns a chance at a rebound and a fastbreak opportunity which they thrive on. True, that team defense is more important than individual defense but that’s not the argument here. Having a player that can shut down opposing players and play tough defense will provide for your team as a whole and makes it easier on your big men.


Same goes for a Offensive perimeter player . Him scoring points lets the other players get back on defensive without using much energy on the offensive side. I know its not the argument that team defense is more improtant then indivdiual offense but lets compare because this can be worked into the equation.

Team Defense is better then a individuals abitlty to play defense thats a known fact but When it comes to Team Offense or Perimeter Offense a player can make up for that whole offense .....So what I'm saying is Team Offense = A individual offense sometimes because that one player has the skills to take over the whole game from outside. That player is not required to maybe guard 2 players out on the perimeter which can be impossible but he can shoot over numerous good perimeter defenders with ease there .Get what I'm saying here a little bit? A players Perimeter offense can take control of the game more so then a perimeter defenders defense.



Quote:
The handchecking rule that’s in place now actually favors my argument. By today’s rules, its a lot easier for a perimeter player to put up points…hell, there was 10 players last year averaging 25+ pts..all of them are perimeter oriented. The new rules make it so defenders are less favored, making it that much harder to find a tenacious hard nosed defensive player…



No it doesn't when you think about it as a whole. The argument that inside defenders are more valuable then perimeter defenders comes into because inside defenders make perimeter defenders less important because they are the last line of defense and basically guard where most of the points in a game are scored. So it basically just takes away the vaule of a perimeter defender. The hand checking rule makes perimeter defenders less valuable .The hand checking rule now basically defines whether you are a good defender or not. Man to man (without help d) defense really doesn't do all that much for teams now because of the rule.

Last edited by HALLandOATES : 09-02-2006 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 04:48 AM   #7
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Players like rodman and bowen were key players in helping their respective teams to win. You talked about how it helps the team as a whole. When you have one dedicated player that plays hard tenacious defense and takes the role of guarding superstar players…your offensive players dont have to work as much thus being more effective. Moreover, a defensive player will disrupt passing lanes, create steals/blocks, change the tempo of the game and always gives your team that mental edge…opposition knows they will have a tough matchup and always has that certain player on their mind. you cant see this on the box score but its there..





Yes but virtaully having a great perimeter scorer also does alot of the same things for the other end of the floor but doesn't have to endure as much energy because the offensive side takes less energy but is in a alot of cases harder to obtain( Having a good perimeter offense game rather then good perimeter defense).




Quote:
Perimeter scorers are superstars because most of them do more than score and because fans came to see points being scored anyways. They didn’t come to see someone D up and prevent points. Any championship team has a tenacious perimeter defender but nor every championship team has a big time perimeter scorer…see pistons, spurs

I think you're missing a point here...theres a difference between perimeter scorers and perimeter superstars. perimtere scorers solely score the ball in bunches and are less rounded. players like ray allen, jason richardson, michael redd..those are scorers. moreover, the league is full of average defenders or poor defenders, most of your points are suggesting that any defender will do...we're talkin about shut down defenders here

An important point here that I would like to discuss, perimeter scorers may seem more important than perimeter defenders but you have to realize players like guys like allen,jrich,redd and even guys like kobe,tmac,bron can score that much because there isn’t that many good perimeter players in the league. The league is lacking good perimeter defensive players and the handcheckin rule isn’t helping. you average swingman today gives you 22,23 pts..

You can still see the effects of the great perimeter defensive players today...ron artest carryin the kings on his back and pretty much causing havoc to any scorer he goes up against, bruce bowen give spurs a lift with his defense i.e. holding kobe to a bad FG%..etc. the problem is there aren’t that many good perimeter defensive players that we often forget how important defense really is and how rare…



The part where you said the Spurs and Pistons don't have big perimeter scorers is wrong. The Pistons rely on Billups and Hamiton outside shots . The Spurs have Ginobli who is a big time perimeter scorer , he gets alot of points from the inside but a majority of them come behind the foul line and the 3 point line. Perimeter Scorers are more important also because they are the Stars. They are made into stars because they can shoot from the perimeter. Stars aren;t Bruce Bowen or James Posey. There abilities on defense just don't match and don't have the affect as what Kobe or Tmac Perimeter Offense do on the the other side.

Good hard nosed defenders ? Never seen one on a nightly basis in my entire life but I have seen guys like Kobe, Allen that go for 20-30 pts nightly basis.
Well great perimeter defenders might be rare but they are not needed in this age when the handchecking rule lets great scorers by pass people.Great perimeter defender or not you are not going to stop KOBE , LEBRON,R. ALLEN in all 3 games you play them maybe 1 or if you're lucky enough 2 but never 3, the offense gifted player is much more likely to score his points rather then you stopping him.

Last edited by HALLandOATES : 09-02-2006 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 07:20 AM   #8
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Writing Style is fine man, can fully understand.

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Raja has some offensive game , a little more then avg. I would say and Kobe, Wade and Tmac probably have a little better defense then a average player. So I would say they match up pretty well. Offense is looked upon as more valuable in todays NBA where fewer points are scored. Sorry to get off topic because it seems like we arguing which is better offense or Defense. Let me ask you this Sizz , Do you think Perimeter defenders are more important then Inside Defenders? I mean once you get past the first line of defense you have to have someone who can stop that person.

Thing is Tmac, wade, kobe will always always have the upper hand on raja because of how well rounded they are, they don’t just score..so any sane person would choose them over raja. Now if we match raja against a player who purely scores, then that would be a fair comparison. Perimeter defenders are more important than inside defenders imo…because the game today is dominated by perimeter players who have been given free spirit with the handchecking rules and once the perimeter defender gets beaten, the opposing player has many options…dish it out, drive the lane, or get to the foul line…moreover, inside defenders can get into foul trouble. Perimeter defenders can also dictate game tempo and disrupt passing lanes…but anyways the argument here isn’t inside vs. outside…

Quote:
Same goes for a Offensive perimeter player my friend. Him scoring buckets lets the other players get back on defensive without using much energy on the offensive side. I know its not the argument that team defense is more improtant then indivdiual offense but lets compare because this can be worked into the equation.

Team Defense is better then a individuals abitlty to play defense thats a known fact but When it comes to Team Offense or Perimeter Offense a player can make up for that whole offense .....So what I'm saying is Team Offense = A individual offense sometimes because that one player has the skills to take over the whole game from outside. That player is not required to maybe guard 2 players out on the perimeter which can be impossible but he can shoot over numerous good perimeter defenders with ease there .Get what I'm saying here a little bit? A players Perimeter offense can take control of the game more so then a perimeter defenders defense.

Ok, let me use an example here. Say you have a player like raja bell and the opposition is dwyane wade. Raja is doing a great job on wade, gettin in his face on every shot, staying in front of him..etc, this will supply phx with great oppurtunites for rebounds/fastbreak points and will prevent miami from functioning well. Now lets say wade is serving raja up, buckets after buckets…phx offense will come down and do what it does best and score. Why? Because miami may not have a shut down perimeter defender they can fall back to…

Quote:
No it doesn't when you think about it as a whole. The argument that inside defenders are more valuable then perimeter defenders comes into because inside defenders make perimeter defenders less important because they are the last line of defense and basically guard where most of the points in a game are scored. So it basically just takes away the vaule of a perimeter defender. The hand checking rule makes perimeter defenders less valuable .The hand checking rule now basically defines whether you are a good defender or not. Man to man (without help d) defense really doesn't do all that much for teams now because of the rule.

The handchecking rules makes shutdown perimeter defenders rarer because not many players can shut you down with the new rules that are implemented. The less of something there is, the more valuable it becomes. Besides, there are a lot of big time scorers today..the league needs more perimeter defenders. Swingmen that can score are pretty much found on every team. The lack of perimeter defenders allows for this trend of perimeter scoring to continue and the handchecking rules aren’t helping the issue.

Quote:
Yes but virtaully having a great perimeter scorer also does alot of the same things for the other end of the floor but doesn't have to endure as much energy because the offensive side takes less energy but is in a alot of cases harder to obtain( Having a good perimeter offense game rather then good perimeter defense).

Teams need to put up points to win obviously but it is often key defensive plays that decide the outcome. If you need a player to get you 25 pts a night..thats easy nowadays, but having someone like artest, bowen is rare…having someone that can step in and face the opposition is better than having someone try to outscore the opposition. For example, having a dude like artest play lebron straight up (offense vs. defense) is usually better for your team than having a lebron/tmac go at it point by point..sure its more exciting for the fans, but shutting down a big time scorer disrupts their whole team offensively whereas scoring in bunches may be countered.

Quote:
The part where you said the Spurs and Pistons don't have big perimeter scorers is wrong. The Pistons rely on Billups and Hamiton outside shots . The Spurs have Ginobli who is a big time perimeter scorer , he gets alot of points from the inside but a majority of them come behind the foul line and the 3 point line.

Top playoff scorers

2003 Spurs

Duncan 24.7
Parker 14.7
S. Jackson 12.8
Manu 9.4


2005 Spurs

Duncan 23.6
Manu 20.8
Parker 17.2


2004 Pistons

Richard Hamilton 21.6
Chauncey Billups 16.4


Now, the backcourt may combine for a lot of points but the points each scorer aren’t considered “big time”…big time scorers are around 24+ imo but if you remember, what was the one constant in all those teams Defense…


Quote:
Perimeter Scorers are more important also because they are the Stars. They are made into stars because they can shoot from the perimeter. Stars aren;t Bruce Bowen or James Posey. There abilities on defense just don't match and don't have the affect as what Kobe or Tmac Perimeter Offense do on the the other side.
Good hard nosed defenders ? Never seen one on a nightly basis in my entire life but I have seen guys like Kobe, Allen that go for 20-30 pts nightly basis.

Stars are defined by putting up points because that’s what the fans want to see. Players like bowen, posey do things that only game film can tell. Kobe, Tmac may put up 40 a night but you also must consider their FG%, their turnovers/assists ratio, etc…defensive perimeter players affect the game mentally, good defenders will alter the tempo, make it harder for the scorer to function within the team offense…


Quote:
Well great perimeter defenders might be rare but they are not needed in this age when the handchecking rule lets great scorers by pass people.Great perimeter defender or not you are not going to stop KOBE , LEBRON,R. ALLEN in all 3 games you play them maybe 1 or if you're lucky enough 2 but never 3, the offense gifted player is much more likely to score his points rather then you stopping him.

Of course they are needed, they are needed more than ever. The game has become lopsided. Player score at will...every swingman in the league had a career yr last yr. tony parker damn near led the league in FG%. More Perimeter defenders are needed to fix this, or it’s going to become a clinic of players running around shooting all day. Perimeter defenders dictate the tempo and flow of the game, they set the tone for the defensive unit. Kobe,lebron,tmac can score all they want but it wont necessarily be efficient scoring, their TOs may be high, and it can ultimately affect the outcome of the game…its not just a matter of points vs. no points…

Last edited by hotsizzle : 09-02-2006 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 08:16 AM   #9
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Thing is Tmac, wade, kobe will always always have the upper hand on raja because of how well rounded they are, they don’t just score..so any sane person would choose them over raja. Now if we match raja against a player who purely scores, then that would be a fair comparison. Perimeter defenders are more important than inside defenders imo…because the game today is dominated by perimeter players who have been given free spirit with the handchecking rules and once the perimeter defender gets beaten, the opposing player has many options…dish it out, drive the lane, or get to the foul line…moreover, inside defenders can get into foul trouble. Perimeter defenders can also dictate game tempo and disrupt passing lanes…but anyways the argument here isn’t inside vs. outside

Why I can't I use Kobe,T-Mac as examples of Perimeter scorers?I'm using the best of the best as my examples. So you want me to use 3point specialist for my examlpes instead of superstars that are just as good on the outside verses your best examples great perimeter defender? That would give you the upper hand but i'm not using them because they're are all perimeters scorers no matter if there a superstar or not.

Ok lets just use superstars that are really well rounded at shooting the three and not every other aspect of the game and compare him to a Raja Bell .Ray Allen a superstar, not well rounded a every aspect of the game, but he is a superstar LARGELY IN PART because he is the best in the game at catching and shooting over players on the perimeter. If he had couldn't shoot on the perimeter then he wouldn't even be a star let alone a superstar.

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Stars are defined by putting up points because that’s what the fans want to see.

So your saying basically any player that can't put up points isn't a superstar? Totally untrue. Jason Kidd was/is a superstar and he can't shot well from the perimeter . John Stockton,Bob Cousy didn't put up points and i'd classify them as superstars.


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Of course they are needed, they are needed more than ever. The game has become lopsided. Player score at will...every swingman in the league had a career yr last yr. tony parker damn near led the league in FG%. More Perimeter defenders are needed to fix this, or it’s going to become a clinic of players running around shooting all day. Perimeter defenders dictate the tempo and flow of the game, they set the tone for the defensive unit. Kobe,lebron,tmac can score all they want but it wont necessarily be efficient scoring, their TOs may be high, and it can ultimately affect the outcome of the game…its not just a matter of points vs. no points…

Well they're needed but it still doesn't X out the fact of great perimeter scorers effect the game more when have a great shooting game opposed to a great defender shutting down only 1 man.

The perimeter scorers does change the game more then just shooting the ball,The thing that helps there team to an even bigger advantage is drawing double teams. Most perimeter defenders can't defender todays game without having a help defender. So if the offensive players starts shooting and hitting shots ,well then that frees up a another shooter. If that shooter starts knocking down shoots then you have to challenge him, freeing up another shooter.So they do change the game other then just shooting.

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Top playoff scorers

2003 Spurs

Duncan 24.7
Parker 14.7
S. Jackson 12.8
Manu 9.4

2005 Spurs

Duncan 23.6
Manu 20.8
Parker 17.2

2004 Pistons

Richard Hamilton 21.6
Chauncey Billups 16.4

Now, the backcourt may combine for a lot of points but the points each scorer aren’t considered “big time”…big time scorers are around 24+ imo but if you remember, what was the one constant in all those teams Defense…

One constant was there defense and .... perimeter scoring IMO. Of course those teams played great defense and were known for it. They all weren't over the top but had a balanced. But weren't not talkin about team defense I thought??? I already said team defense is more important then just one great perimeter scorer, your going back to what i said.

Richard Hamilton,Chanucey Billups are two of the best perimeter shooters in the NBA and there percentage shows it as well. So you wanna say there not big time scorers..Ok i go with that but your're also saying that didn't have a huge effect when playing other teams. Plus the have Rasheed who is one of the best perimeter shooting big men in the league.

Rasheed 13ppg
Hamilton21 ppg
Billups 21 ppg

in the 2004 NBA Finals.

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Old 09-02-2006, 11:38 AM   #10
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Perimeter shooters can be superstars and can be role players, they range from each one, but one thing is certain that that all can be classifield as the best no matter if they're a star name or not.

From the SUPERSTARS Kobe Byant,Ray Allen,Dirk Nowitzki to the STARS Rashard Lewis,Jason Terry,Richard Hamilton to the ROLE PLAYERS Kyle Korver,Mike Miller,Matt Harpring there all Perimeter scorers no matter how you argue it.

Your're saying you'll agree with me where I said Ray Allen is more important then Bruce Bowen because of his Perimter Shooting is more important then Bruce's perimeter defense proves my point of the argument and your actually agreeing with me on the topic "which is better a perimeter defender or a perimeter scorer".

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Old 09-02-2006, 03:52 PM   #11
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Why I can't I use Kobe,T-Mac as examples of Perimeter scorers?I'm using the best of the best as my examples. So you want me to use 3point specialist for my examlpes instead of superstars that are just as good on the outside verses your best examples great perimeter defender? That would give you the upper hand but i'm not using them because they're are all perimeters scorers no matter if there a superstar or not.

Ok lets just use superstars that are really well rounded at shooting the three and not every other aspect of the game and compare him to a Raja Bell .Ray Allen a superstar, not well rounded a every aspect of the game, but he is a superstar LARGELY IN PART because he is the best in the game at catching and shooting over players on the perimeter. If he had couldn't shoot on the perimeter then he wouldn't even be a star let alone a superstar.

Main thing I was aiming for here was to explain why cats like tmac,kobe would be taken over raja anyways. Sure they’re scorers and you can legitimately use them to make your argument but its not fair putting a matchup between kobe vs raja when kobe does way more than just score. So anyways Raja vs Ray Allen…but lets say allen is absent…sonics will still find a way to put points…I mean just because Ray Allen scores 25 pts a night doesn’t mean that sonics will score 25 pts less on a given night because of his absence. However, Raja being absent for a game will indeed affect the suns perimeter D, and it will affect the sonics offense too not having allen..but other players will step in and get points…not as effieciently and not in bunches but all in all, they wont have that perimeter defender to give them the edge.


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So your saying basically any player that can't put up points isn't a superstar? Totally untrue. Jason Kidd was/is a superstar and he can't shot well from the perimeter . John Stockton,Bob Cousy didn't put up points and i'd classify them as superstars.

No, that’s not what I mean. But tell me something…most fans, would they want to see a scoring battle between kobe and tmac or would they want to see a pistons v. spurs matchup. That’s my point, defensive players aren’t stars but this doesn’t make them less needed


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Well they're needed but it still doesn't X out the fact of great perimeter scorers effect the game more when have a great shooting game opposed to a great defender shutting down only 1 man.

The perimeter scorers does change the game more then just shooting the ball,The thing that helps there team to an even bigger advantage is drawing double teams. Most perimeter defenders can't defender todays game without having a help defender. So if the offensive players starts shooting and hitting shots ,well then that frees up a another shooter. If that shooter starts knocking down shoots then you have to challenge him, freeing up another shooter.So they do change the game other then just shooting.

You are dismissing something here. Defensive perimeter players don’t only prevent points. They ruin the opposition’s flow..they target ball movement up top which limits their opponents offense. Kobe may get 40 but he may be shooting a bad FG% and could end up isolating teammates. You say perimeter scorers do change more then just shooting the ball, but most of the time, it is not their specialty…most players that can work off the double team and cause havoc anywhere they go on the court are superstars that are well rounded at everything..or else every scorer in the league would avg 6+ assts and be superstar. But a defensive player has one thing on his mind, target the ball and target the player…that is their job, that is what he’ll do…in today’s game, what separates superstars from scorers is how they fight the double team, setting up teammates, driving the lane, etc…

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One constant was there defense and .... perimeter scoring IMO. Of course those teams played great defense and were known for it. They all weren't over the top but had a balanced. But weren't not talkin about team defense I thought??? I already said team defense is more important then just one great perimeter scorer, your going back to what i said.

Richard Hamilton,Chanucey Billups are two of the best perimeter shooters in the NBA and there percentage shows it as well. So you wanna say there not big time scorers..Ok i go with that but your're also saying that didn't have a huge effect when playing other teams. Plus the have Rasheed who is one of the best perimeter shooting big men in the league.

Rasheed 13ppg
Hamilton21 ppg
Billups 21 ppg

in the 2004 NBA Finals.

The point is that there has been championship teams that didn’t have a big time scorer but in this case rather three good scorers…but each had a shutdown perimeter defender whether its tayshaun or bowen.


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From the SUPERSTARS Kobe Byant,Ray Allen,Dirk Nowitzki to the STARS Rashard Lewis,Jason Terry,Richard Hamilton to the ROLE PLAYERS Kyle Korver,Mike Miller,Matt Harpring there all Perimeter scorers no matter how you argue it.

We’re talking about “big time” perimeter scorers here…korver, miller, harpring don’t even sniff that list.

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You saying you'll agree with me where I said Ray Allen is more important then Bruce Bowen because of his Perimter Shooting is more important then Bruce's perimeter defense proves my point of the argument and your actually agreeing with me on the topic "which is better a perimeter defender or a perimeter scorer

Im not agreeing with which is more important…I am saying that Ray Allen is a better overall player that Bruce Bowen..but I would much rather have Bruce Bowen working on lebron or tmac than having ray allen trying to match them point for point. I mean, look at sonics, no perimeter D whatsoever, where have they gotten..what has ray allen’s 25 pts done?..what has shard’s 20 pts done? ..no playoffs. Now look at bulls…led by less scoring backcourt…but better perimeter D; and it showed in how they frustrated miami..had them yelling at each other. and another example, think back to when sonics acquired watson..they started to get things rolling because they had someone that can defend the perimeter and create more oppurtunties

Last edited by hotsizzle : 09-02-2006 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 05:04 PM   #12
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You cant always rely on outscoring your opponents, defense will always be the constant that wins games. and with the increasing trend of scoring nowadays and the new handchcking rules...the game thrives for perimeter defenders.
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Old 09-02-2006, 05:23 PM   #13
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Main thing I was aiming for here was to explain why cats like tmac,kobe would be taken over raja anyways. Sure they’re scorers and you can legitimately use them to make your argument but its not fair putting a matchup between kobe vs raja when kobe does way more than just score.

I know it's not fair. But Kobe is a great perimeter shooter. Yes he does do everthing else better on the floor and has a better basketball IQ but the question thats being asked for the topic is iffy on my side because I doesn't say compare guys with 1 strong side of the players game and the other weak.

Ok lets still use Kobe and ask yourself would you want a Kobe Bryant with

stats are incorrect but thats not the point

a.maximum offensive shooting skills, average to weak defensive skills
30ppg 45%fg 37%3ptfg
b.maximum defensive skills(bruce bowen type), average to weak offensive skills
8ppg 38%fg 24% 3ptfg

Do the same with Ray Allen

a.maximum offensive shooting skills, average to weak defense
25ppg 46%fg 40%3pt fg%
b.maximum defensive skills, average to weak offesnive shooting skills
7ppg 38%fg 25%3pt fg%

I would take the offensive minded player every time. 100 times out of 100.

Quote:
So anyways Raja vs Ray Allen…but lets say allen is absent…sonics will still find a way to put points…I mean just because Ray Allen scores 25 pts a night doesn’t mean that sonics will score 25 pts less on a given night because of his absence. However, Raja being absent for a game will indeed affect the suns perimeter D, and it will affect the sonics offense too not having allen..but other players will step in and get points…not as effieciently and not in bunches but all in all, they wont have that perimeter defender to give them the edge.


They will find away to put up points yes. They'd probaly make up for about half of the points he scored and shoot it a a low percentage and probaly wouldn't win very many games. Take Bowen off the Spurs and they'd still win there fair share of games. You would probaly say of course because Ray Allen is the better all rounded player.

Lets compare attributes of the two players by rating them from 1-10 so i can fairly match a player up to another. This is not going off topic because you keep saying its unfair to compare guys like Kobe to Raja in aspects of who is better or whatnot.

outside/permeter shooting defense
Bowen 5 9
Allen 9 5

There's other catergoires of course . All the intangibles like going for loose balls,picks ect.. ok thats one. The other big one is Ray Allen having the ball in his hands alot. Bruce doesn't get that one. But lets say he does and he feeds players just as much a Ray getting the 4 assits Ray does(Bruce only gets around 1and a half).

After Bruce having

-the ball in his hands as much as Ray
-doing all the intangibles just as good as Ray
and still having that great perimeter defense I still wouldn't take him over Ray because Ray's offense is still so much more valuble then Bowens defense.


Another fair matchup would be a guy with the poorest defense and great shooting like Kyle Korver would be taken oevr a guy like Shandon Anderson(even if he was young), who has great defense and poor offense everytime.


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No, that’s not what I mean. But tell me something…most fans, would they want to see a scoring battle between kobe and tmac or would they want to see a pistons v. spurs matchup. That’s my point, defensive players aren’t stars but this doesn’t make them less needed

True. But I didn't say them not being all-stars doesn't make them less needed. They're less needed then a great shooter from the outside iis what i'm saying.They'e not all stars because the All-Star game is about what is most important part of the NBA and that is Scoring and Shooting. If defense was the most important part of the game and it was important to the extent of defense then we would have more defenders in all-star games. Don't get me wrong, defense is important but not as important as scoring. We've probaly seen more perimeter shooters in all star games with average to weak skills on defensive end then we have just defenders with average to weak offensive skills.




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You are dismissing something here. Defensive perimeter players don’t only prevent points. They ruin the opposition’s flow..they target ball movement up top which limits their opponents offense.

I didn't dimiss this, I agree with it completely. But the offensive shooter does things like this . Frees guys up like I said, draws double teams and could ruin a whole defensive stretegy.


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Kobe may get 40 but he may be shooting a bad FG% and could end up isolating teammates. You say perimeter scorers do change more then just shooting the ball, but most of the time, it is not their specialty…most players that can work off the double team and cause havoc anywhere they go on the court are superstars that are well rounded at everything..or else every scorer in the league would avg 6+ assts and be superstar. But a defensive player has one thing on his mind, target the ball and target the player…that is their job, that is what he’ll do…in today’s game, what separates superstars from scorers is how they fight the double team, setting up teammates, driving the lane, etc…


You can't compare indivual games. Bowen might be having a bad defenseive night verses Kobe and Kobe just shakes him off everytime. He's done it before.

and yes perimeter shooters do turn into superstars and get well rounded because of the attribute of shooting outside. . It frees up there guys and sometimes causing them to yesss.. average more assits. Thats how they'e born. If you can shoot the ball it turns all other parts of you game better, gives you more options and yes...gives you better stats.


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The point is that there has been championship teams that didn’t have a big time scorer but in this case rather three good scorers…but each had a shutdown perimeter defender whether its tayshaun or bowen.

Theres also has been chamionship teams without shutdown defenders on the perimeter. Los Angeles Lakers of 2000 didn't have a shutdown defender in Kobe Bryant yet and they still won. All those teams you pointed out also had 3-5 great shooters from the outside as well. Well you say Lakers of 2000 were much better then there opponents for that to matter. Well the same could be said for the Pistons beating the Lakers in 2004.


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Im not agreeing with which is more important…I am saying that Ray Allen is a better overall player that Bruce Bowen..but I would much rather have Bruce Bowen working on lebron or tmac than having ray allen trying to match them point for point. I mean, look at sonics, no perimeter D whatsoever, where have they gotten..what has ray allen’s 25 pts done?..what has shard’s 20 pts done? Now look at bulls…led by a less scoring backcourt…but better perimeter D.

Game by game you would want Bowen to be on your team verses Lebron if you already had a Ray Allen.But Bowen he has no offensive game so he's a huge liabilty and i wouldn't risk that. Atleast Ray has a good chance of matching LeBron rather then having Bowen out there for 40 mintues not scoring much at all.

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You cant always rely on outscoring your opponents, defense will always be the constant that wins games. and with the increasing trend of scoring nowadays and the new handchcking rules...the game thrives for perimeter defenders.

You can't always rely on defense as well. Look at team USA. They thought they put togther a great defensive squad. In the end there defense hit a low and they could match the outside shooting of Greece causing them to loss. Again the had good perimeter defenders(Battier,Melo) and it just didn't work.Thats a time when even good perimeter shooters couldn't stop great shooters.

Look at then Denver Nuggets. Good defensive team but had NO outside shootng whatso ever. Did they get far? No. They have great defense so why should they look for a shooter? So they can get deeper in the playoffs and they know the can't get any deeper without a scorer. They acquired Evans,Patterson to even add to there defense but still hit a wall.Pistos of 2004 atleast had 2-3 great perimeter shooters. Else they wouldn't have got to were they were just on there solid defense alone
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Old 09-02-2006, 06:36 PM   #14
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I know it's not fair. But Kobe is a great perimeter shooter. Yes he does do everthing else better on the floor and has a better basketball IQ but the question thats being asked for the topic is iffy on my side because I doesn't say compare guys with 1 strong side of the players game and the other weak.

Ok lets still use Kobe and ask yourself would you want a Kobe Bryant with

stats are incorrect but thats not the point

a.maximum offensive shooting skills, average to weak defensive skills
30ppg 45%fg 37%3ptfg
b.maximum defensive skills(bruce bowen type), average to weak offensive skills
8ppg 38%fg 24% 3ptfg

Do the same with Ray Allen

a.maximum offensive shooting skills, average to weak defense
25ppg 46%fg 40%3pt fg%
b.maximum defensive skills, average to weak offesnive shooting skills
7ppg 38%fg 25%3pt fg%

I would take the offensive minded player every time. 100 times out of 100.


I stated this before, you have to score to win basketball games, but scoring can be found in so many players. There are so many versatile scorers today, if you need a player to put the ball in the hole, you can get one…we got great all around players in kobe,bron,wade,tmac,pierce,carter etc that can score and do about everything else. Then we got outstanding big men in brand,dirk,Duncan,yao,bosh that can also score and do other things. Then we got speciality scorers in people like Jrich,allen, redd…theres many many guys that can get you points nowadays. Scoring is not an issue, that’s why teams are constantly trying to acquire defensive players. players like bowen,artest,Jeffries are rare and not many players today have any interest in playing defense. The lack of perimeter defensive players results in so many scoring outputs and scoring dominance.

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They will find away to put up points yes. They'd probaly make up for about half of the points he scored and shoot it a a low percentage and probaly wouldn't win very many games. Take Bowen off the Spurs and they'd still win there fair share of games. You would probaly say of course because Ray Allen is the better all rounded player.

Lets compare attributes of the two players by rating them from 1-10 so i can fairly match a player up to another. This is not going off topic because you keep saying its unfair to compare guys like Kobe to Raja in aspects of who is better or whatnot.

outside/permeter shooting defense
Bowen 5 9
Allen 9 5

There's other catergoires of course . All the intangibles like going for loose balls,picks ect.. ok thats one. The other big one is Ray Allen having the ball in his hands alot. Bruce doesn't get that one. But lets say he does and he feeds players just as much a Ray getting the 4 assits Ray does(Bruce only gets around 1and a half).

After Bruce having

-the ball in his hands as much as Ray
-doing all the intangibles just as good as Ray
and still having that great perimeter defense I still wouldn't take him over Ray because Ray's offense is still so much more valuble then Bowens defense.

Players face different matchups everytime and since perimeter defensive players are rare, allen has it easy most of the time. Look at the matchups between allen and bowen. How frustrated allen becomes and how bowen disrupts his game. Again, players like Allen average big time points because there aren’t enough defensive minded players today, everyone wants to score…but putting allen up against bowen, allen wont have it easy…

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Another fair matchup would be a guy with the poorest defense and great shooting like Kyle Korver would be taken oevr a guy like Shandon Anderson(even if he was young), who has great defense and poor offense everytime.

This depends at what kind of team you have…with the increase of scoring trends nowadays, I would take Shandon anyday because he provides rare defensive play that will ultimately make it easier for my superstar player to play offense.


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True. But I didn't say them not being all-stars doesn't make them less needed. They're less needed then a great shooter from the outside iis what i'm saying.They'e not all stars because the All-Star game is about what is most important part of the NBA and that is Scoring and Shooting. If defense was the most important part of the game and it was important to the extent of defense then we would have more defenders in all-star games. Don't get me wrong, defense is important but not as important as scoring. We've probaly seen more perimeter shooters in all star games with average to weak skills on defensive end then we have just defenders with average to weak offensive skills.

The All star game is about entertainment first and foremost. They don’t need a defensive player slowing the game tempo and making it tough. Hell, the game is full of oops and dunks like no other.
Any team can put up points..it can come from down low or up top, from well rounded players or one dimensional players…defense is the deciding factor


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I didn't dimiss this, I agree with it completely. But the offensive shooter does things like this . Frees guys up like I said, draws double teams and could ruin a whole defensive stretegy.


Locking up an offensive shooter will not only disrupt your opponents offensive scheme but will give your team more chances and breaks and extra possessions…example, steal, fastbreak, bucket. On the other other hand, an offensive player making a bucket or setting a teammate up…can always be countered on the other side by scoring. Defense affects both ways…

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and yes perimeter shooters do turn into superstars and get well rounded because of the attribute of shooting outside. . It frees up there guys and sometimes causing them to yesss.. average more assits. Thats how they'e born. If you can shoot the ball it turns all other parts of you game better, gives you more options and yes...gives you better stats.


A perimeter defensive player is capable of disrupting those attributes especially if you’re one of them players that can only shoot.

Quote:
Theres also has been chamionship teams without shutdown defenders on the perimeter. Los Angeles Lakers of 2000 didn't have a shutdown defender in Kobe Bryant yet and they still won. All those teams you pointed out also had 3-5 great shooters from the outside as well. Well you say Lakers of 2000 were much better then there opponents for that to matter. Well the same could be said for the Pistons beating the Lakers in 2004.

Kobe Bryant was on All NBA 1st defensive team in 2000…made a game winning block in one of the games…80s lakers, 80s celts, 90s bulls, 2000s championship teams all had excellent perimeter defenders. When you get deep into the playoffs, defense wins games…that’s how its always been.

Quote:
Game by game you would want Bowen to be on your team verses Lebron if you already had a Ray Allen.But Bowen he has no offensive game so he's a huge liabilty and i wouldn't risk that. Atleast Ray has a good chance of matching LeBron rather then having Bowen out there for 40 mintues not scoring much at all.

And what happens if ray allen fails to outscore lebron…there are 4 other guys on your team that can outscore lebron…having bowen will disrupt lebron, and thus influence the whole offensive unit of the cavs…giving your team better opportunities and breaks to put up points.


Quote:
You can't always rely on defense as well. Look at team USA. They thought they put togther a great defensive squad. In the end there defense hit a low and they could match the outside shooting of Greece causing them to loss. Again the had good perimeter defenders(Battier,Melo) and it just didn't work.Thats a time when even good perimeter shooters couldn't stop great shooters.

You had players like bron,wade get abused by pick and roles. And in today’s nba, wade/bron aren’t known for defense either. What about Greece’s defense, all tournament long they were know for the defense, and USA was bricking up shot after shot…

You can always fall back on defense. Its your anchor. Through tough shooting nights, you need defense to get you through…

Quote:
Look at the Dever Nuggets. Good defensive team but had NO outside shooting whatso ever. Did they get far? No. They have great defense so why should they look for a shooter? So they can get deeper in the playoffs and they know the can't get any deeper without a scorer. They acquired Evans,Patterson to even add to there defense but still hit a wall.Pistos of 2004 atleast had 2-3 great perimeter shooters. Else they wouldn't have got to were they were just on there solid defense alone

If we are going to use extreme cases then…lets look at the sonics. Both teams are in the same division…one team can shoot lights out but no perimeter D whatsoever, and the other team has good perimeter defense but lacks shooting…who was better this year? An extereme case will never get you through…

In today’s games, its hard to see how important perimeter defense really is because its not there anymore… players look like superheroes dominating the game in every way... the disparity between offense and defense nowadays is huge and defensive players are truly lacking. damn the handchecking rules

Scoring is always there, there will always be players that can score…and theres a variety of ways to do it…but perimeter defense is a rare commodity to have on your team…

Last edited by hotsizzle : 09-02-2006 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 08:17 PM   #15
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Kobe Bryant was on All NBA 1st defensive team in 2000…made a game winning block in one of the games…80s lakers, 80s celts, 90s bulls, 2000s championship teams all had excellent perimeter defenders. When you get deep into the playoffs, defense wins games…that’s how its always been.

Being on NBA all first team doesn't mean your a shut down defender which is what I was saying. All's those teams you listed had great perimeter shooting as well. Argubaly the best in the league for the time and place .

Quote:
And what happens if ray allen fails to outscore lebron…there are 4 other guys on your team that can outscore lebron…having bowen will disrupt lebron, and thus influence the whole offensive unit of the cavs…giving your team better opportunities and breaks to put up points.

What happens if Bowen fails to stop LeBron? Lebron could start hitting shots and Bowen would be able to stop him no matter what. It has happened many times. When that happens other guys get open from LeBron drawing double teams and then the whole team can't be stopped.


Quote:
A perimeter defensive player is capable of disrupting those attributes especially if you’re one of them players that can only shoot.


What? That has nothing to do to what i was implying. I was talking about how when most superstars start to develope an outside shot then that leads to them getting doubled, which leads to more assits and them becoming a passer, which leads to them becoming a star which all leads up to why supertstars in guards/small forwards are usually good outside shooters .

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This depends at what kind of team you have…with the increase of scoring trends nowadays, I would take Shandon anyday because he provides rare defensive play that will ultimately make it easier for my superstar player to play offense.

Again Shandon Anderson is a great addition to any team with his defense, but i'd rather have a player that can shoot from beyond the arc at high rate and isn't a offensive liabilty.


Quote:
Players face different matchups everytime and since perimeter defensive players are rare, allen has it easy most of the time. Look at the matchups between allen and bowen. How frustrated allen becomes and how bowen disrupts his game. Again, players like Allen average big time points because there aren’t enough defensive minded players today, everyone wants to score…but putting allen up against bowen, allen wont have it easy…


Your overatting Bowen's defense. Ray scored 35 points on him this season. Bowens defense isn't stellar 24/7. Its not constant 24/7. he has his good games and his bad. There actually is more defensive minded perimeter players then you might think in the league today. Each team has them.


Artest,S.Anderson, J.Posey, J.Jeffreies, D Armstrong,L. Hunter,R. Patterson,K. Bryant, A.Miller, J. Kidd, B. Bowen, R Bell, M. Petterson, J .Rose, S. Cassell, G. Payton, E. Jones,E Snow, K. Ollie, C. Billups, R. Hamilton, C. Atkins, S. Augmon, D. Anderson, M Barnes, K. Bogans, G Buckner,C Chenay, D. Fisher, K. Hinrich, L. Deng, E. Griffin, L .Hughes, A Johnson, I. Newble,B. Sura, D Wesley.I just named 40 players in the NBA that are great perimeter defenders i na bout two mintutes and there are lots more if you think about it. There not as scarce as you think when it comes down to it. There all over the place.Are they all shut down? No sir, But you have to ask yourself are all offensive players as good as Ray Allen? No way. Thats why we need more shooters like Allen. Shooters aren't over the top in numbers then there are solid defenders. That is a fact.

Your going off of the young players too much. Its the young players today that are lazy on defensive and offensive minded that is given NBA a bad name when it comes to defense and some teams as well. Theres still a plenty of defensive minded players in the NBA, I mean plenty. Most of them arent talked about like you said because defense isn't what most fans want to talk about. There's many underrated ones to like D.Wade, G. Arenas, P. Pierce, C. Anthony, J. Stackhouse, M. Finley, L. Odom, Q.Ross, B. Wells and many many more.

Last edited by HALLandOATES : 09-02-2006 at 08:22 PM.
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