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Old 09-01-2006, 11:40 PM   #1
Skywalker
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Default ISH Debate Tourney- Round 1: geeWiz15 vs. ZHAKIDD

These two are debating who the better player is, Steve Nash or Jason Kidd?

Side debating Steve Nash is the better player
Steve Nash is one of very few players to win 2 MVPs, let alone in consecutive years, that takes a great player to accomplish that.


Side debating Jason Kidd is the better player
Kidd is the better player.

The fact is that basketball is played on two sides of the floor and defense is half the battle. A team captain should be a leader and set an example for his team more than half of the time and Kidd fits that; Nash does not. And it shows. Year after year Nash’s teams fall short not due to a lack of talent but due to a lack of toughness and defense.

Both players are able to make scrubs into stars on offense. Kenyon Martin: all-star. Vince Carter: rejuvenated. Shawn Marion: MVP candidate. Boris Diaw: the most unlikely career turnaround of the decade. An ability to make things happen on offense is not the issue here. The fact is that Kidd has Nash on positively every other aspect of the game.

Namely: defense. Kidd has been known to put the shutdown on nearly every star backcourt player you can come up with. He’s widely considered one of the top defensive PGs of all time. Nash, on the other hand, is so bad at it that Mavs owner Mark Cuban refused to resign him for 60 million, and then weeks later handed Erick Damper 70 million: he was that desperate for defense. Nash couldn’t provide it. And what has anyone won without defense? Eric Dampier and Jason Terry have done for Cuban what “MVP” Nash didn’t: took them to the Finals.

To look at this as a comparison of individual offensive abilities is dishonest, irrelevant, and goes against everything that makes both players great. These are distributors: their living is made off of making other players better. Sure, Nash CAN score but when he does, his team loses. What separates these players are intangibles, such as defense and toughness, but also tangibles, such as steals and rebounds. Also note experience: Kidd has been successful in the league longer and is the more savvy player. Kidd has a playstyle that historically is more beneficial in the playoffs. Whatever fancy skills and flair Nash brings to the table is nice to have in the regular season, but when crunchtime comes around, Nash is the one taking 55 win teams to second round exits; Kidd is the one making the Finals multiple times. And isn’t that what being a great player is all about?
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Old 09-02-2006, 01:19 AM   #2
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This isn't fair to my opponent. He's a Nets fan. His heart obviously isn't in this, put somebody else in his place and let him debate something else.
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Old 09-02-2006, 12:25 PM   #3
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thank you for understanding, I would like that...I've been on Kidd's side since this discussion first surfaced here...
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Old 09-02-2006, 12:42 PM   #4
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I'm debating against Garnett, I have to deal with it! Come on, it's supposed to be about he has a better argument, not the actual better player in your mind.
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Old 09-02-2006, 09:34 PM   #5
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Well ZHA you got the raw deal but I gotta do my duty.

Quote:
Steve Nash is one of very few players to win 2 MVPs, let alone in consecutive years, that takes a great player to accomplish that.
Irrelevant 3 reasons:

1. the Suns system. Coach D'Antoni's revolutionary offensive system is more deserving of that MVP than Steve Nash is. What Steve Nash is able to do is to take that offensive system and maximize its effectiveness. Kidd doesn't have this advantage. In the trips to the Finals the Nets ran with assistant coach Eddie Jordan's bastardized Princeton offense which didn't give Kidd full control of the offense that Nash has. As soon as Jordan was gone, Carter was traded for, and Lawrence Frank gives much of the playmaking duty to Carter now; so really, not since he was a Sun was Kidd given full control of an offense and never in his career has he been given full control of a halfway decent one.

2. the Suns players. Steve Nash is surrounded by spot up shooters and dunking machines: the perfect supporting cast for a distributing point guard. It's absurd how perfect Nash's supporting cast is. Kidd, meanwhile has never had a complete team to work with with two exceptions: both Finals teams. His latest teams have had nothing in the frontcourt or on the bench.

One common objection to the "Nash's supporting cast is awesome" argument is that Nash MADE them that good. But how would we know? Stoudemire's numerical explosion coincides with rapid growth both physically, mentally and skills-wise; how are we to know that Nash is the reason? Marion had been 20/10 long before Nash came around. Joe Johnson's numbers exploded after he left Phoenix. Boris Diaw was simply playing out of position in Atlanta and was never given a chance at the forward where he belongs; even in Phoenix he showed the same complete lack of confidence in himself that held him back in Atlanta; it was just Phoenix' wide-open system just further proved how shockingly overrated Nash is. a 12th man on the worst team in the league comes to Phoenix and plays like an all-star JUST BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEM! Boris Diaw, despite being Nash lovers greatest go-to argument, is actually their downfall. It just shows how good passers are completely blown out of proportion in the Suns offense.

3. the MVP race has been a joke the last 2 years. Nash nearly lost to Shaq who had another MVP candidate on his team the first year. and the second year was one of the most dreadful years for the MVP award. quite simply, nobody jumped up and claimed it. Nash's MVPs weren't earned as much as the many superior players around the league either didn't have the necessary supporting cast to get the obligatory wins (Garnett, Pierce, Kobe, Tmac) or had the worst seasons of their career (Duncan, Shaq) or were completely disrespected by the media (Dirk).

4. His lack of playoff success. What does an MVP get you if your 55-60 win team sputters and chokes in the playoffs? If shallow, meaningless regular season success is your cup of tea, you could certainly make a case for Nash... but as long as the NBA Championships are won by grit and playoff resilience I don't think this is much of a debate at all. Kidd is so much better that it's not even worth debating. He's proven it, he's made the Finals while Nash takes 55 win teams home weeks early every year.

Last edited by geeWiz15 : 09-02-2006 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:56 PM   #6
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Geez I was hoping for some really interesting first round debates, this one has the potential but not enough has been said
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Old 09-03-2006, 09:39 AM   #7
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geeWiz wins by default, no closing statement needed unless you wanna show off yours that you already wrote gee lol.
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Old 09-03-2006, 11:16 AM   #8
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dude, GIVE ME AN OPPONENT.

I'm begging.

My closing is too awesome to waste on a gimmie.
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Old 09-03-2006, 01:53 PM   #9
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I already have your name typed in for round 2 so your closing goes to waste. lol
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Old 09-03-2006, 11:01 PM   #10
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Ive used half those arguments against nash already...whatever...
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