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Old 09-02-2006, 08:53 PM   #16
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Being on NBA all first team doesn't mean your a shut down defender which is what I was saying. All's those teams you listed had great perimeter shooting as well. Argubaly the best in the league for the time and place .
Being on all NBA defensive team assures that you are the best at guarding that position. So kobe was the best defending SG in the league..and he guarded the perimeter so how is he not considered a shutdown perimeter defender

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What happens if Bowen fails to stop LeBron? Lebron could start hitting shots and Bowen would be able to stop him no matter what. It has happened many times. When that happens other guys get open from LeBron drawing double teams and then the whole team can't be stopped.


LeBron may hit shots but there are other four players on the spurs that are capable of intitiating offense and answering back at lebron. A team is greater than one player. if spurs don’t have bowen, then theres no chance at even buggin lebron one-on-one...also having a player that is capable of taking such challenge will relieve alot of your teamates on defense and make them more effective in other areas.

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What? That has nothing to do to what i was implying. I was talking about how when most superstars start to develope an outside shot then that leads to them getting doubled, which leads to more assits and them becoming a passer, which leads to them becoming a star which all leads up to why supertstars in guards/small forwards are usually good outside shooters .

Theres many players that have an outside shot that don’t develop those attributes to pass up and set up other teammates. Peja,redd,korver,etc.

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Your overatting Bowen's defense. Ray scored 35 points on him this season. Bowens defense isn't stellar 24/7. Its not constant 24/7. he has his good games and his bad. There actually is more defensive minded perimeter players then you might think in the league today. Each team has them.


Artest,S.Anderson, J.Posey, J.Jeffreies, D Armstrong,L. Hunter,R. Patterson,K. Bryant, A.Miller, J. Kidd, B. Bowen, R Bell, M. Petterson, J .Rose, S. Cassell, G. Payton, E. Jones,E Snow, K. Ollie, C. Billups, R. Hamilton, C. Atkins, S. Augmon, D. Anderson, M Barnes, K. Bogans, G Buckner,C Chenay, D. Fisher, K. Hinrich, L. Deng, E. Griffin, L .Hughes, A Johnson, I. Newble,B. Sura, D Wesley.I just named 40 players in the NBA that are great perimeter defenders i na bout two mintutes and there are lots more if you think about it. There not as scarce as you think when it comes down to it. There all over the place.Are they all shut down? No sir, But you have to ask yourself are all offensive players as good as Ray Allen? No way. Thats why we need more shooters like Allen. Shooters aren't over the top in numbers then there are solid defenders. That is a fact.

Ok, I was just using bowen not because I didn’t wanna use the best of the best in ron ron. Anyways, allen can drop 35, but it could be bad FG%, more TOs, frustration i.e. kickin him in the back…

so all those players you stated are great perimeter defenders but kobe wasn’t considered one of them in 2000 when he was on all nba defensive team. And a lot of the players you stated are not shut down defenders, above average with the exception of a few…and do you actually have sam cassell in there, one of sam cassell’s weaknesses is his lack of defense. A lot of those players are scrubs, they come in for a few minutes to give littlie defensive help when the starters are out. The argument is about shutdown perimeter defenders…ron ron, bowen,…not too many of them huh?


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Your going off of the young players too much. Its the young players today that are lazy on defensive and offensive minded that is given NBA a bad name when it comes to defense and some teams as well. Theres still a plenty of defensive minded players in the NBA, I mean plenty. Most of them arent talked about like you said because defense isn't what most fans want to talk about. There's many underrated ones to like D.Wade, G. Arenas, P. Pierce, C. Anthony, J. Stackhouse, M. Finley, L. Odom, Q.Ross, B. Wells and many many more.

Those players have not proven they’re all that on defense, maybe Quinton ross, other than that, none have proven anything. Again, the argument here is about shutdown perimeter defenders not your average ones.

another point i wanna make is how one perimeter shutdown defender can affect the team's whole mindset. example of what happend in sacto when ron ron came in..many teams have scorers bro, but defense has always been the key

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Old 09-02-2006, 09:48 PM   #17
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seriously... I am so glad I'm not a judge right now. uninteresting topic and soooooo much to read. ugh.
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:39 PM   #18
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Being on all NBA defensive team assures that you are the best at guarding that position. So kobe was the best defending SG in the league..and he guarded the perimeter so how is he not considered a shutdown perimeter defender

Are you watching the same Kobe i'm watching ?He's a good defender and is on first team, so what, that mak shim a shut down defender??? He doesn't shut down his defender time and time again or even every other game. He's great but not at shut down level. maybe once in a great while but that can't classify you at that.


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LeBron may hit shots but there are other four players on the spurs that are capable of intitiating offense and answering back at lebron. A team is greater than one player. if spurs don’t have bowen, then theres no chance at even buggin lebron one-on-one...also having a player that is capable of taking such challenge will relieve alot of your teamates on defense and make them more effective in other areas.

Yes a team is getter then one player. offensive and defensive wise, duh. That agument you made could go either way and is irrelvent to the topic on hand. You saiyng the don't have Bowen would be bad. But what would be worse is if the lost Ginobli, a good perimeter shooter. Yes having a player will relieve other teammates but thats isn't as important as a great shooter who can set up teammates and knock down shots consistently.

Coaches can also change a players attitude and make him want to play defense if needed, he can't really do that if he wants a good shooter to that extent. Although tiring ,its easier for a player to play good defense then shoot at a high percentage from the 17 feet consistently and you have to agree on that. Defense take heart. Offense takes heart and skill.

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Theres many players that have an outside shot that don’t develop those attributes to pass up and set up other teammates. Peja,redd,korver,etc.

So? I was just talking about some of the shooters develope those attributes not all, why does that matter? Some do ,some don't. Do the great defenders usually have these? No sir.


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Ok, I was just using bowen not because I didn’t wanna use the best of the best in ron ron. Anyways, allen can drop 35, but it could be bad FG%, more TOs, frustration i.e. kickin him in the back…


but it wasnt' that game. It went his way that night . He could also finish any zero turnovers to ten any given night and i'd still go with him. Bowen could tunr it over jsut as much not even bein productive at all.

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so all those players you stated are great perimeter defenders but kobe wasn’t considered one of them in 2000 when he was on all nba defensive team.

Repeating yourself, I said Kobe wasn't a shut down defender, yes he's way above average but i wouldn't put him in the top 5 even though he made the 1st defensive team. he is lazy at times and focuses more on offense .Like you said only stars make those kind of teams. Thats why Bowen gets snubbed. butn thisis getting off the topic so why am i arguing it.

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And a lot of the players you stated are not shut down defenders, above average with the exception of a few…and do you actually have sam cassell in there, one of sam cassell’s weaknesses is his lack of defense.

What are you talking about . I didn't say they were shut down.Please tell me where I said that .Putting word in my mouth son. I said there're known for there defense and there solid because you stated they were rare and hard to find. Which is not the case if I can list 40 in a couple mintues. . Ok I was just rationalizing like i have this whole time to be nice. I compare my best example Kobe to yours Bowen and you say no fair. I compare solid defenders so they can compare to my solid guys and you cry foul. i am suppose to compare Ron Artest to mike james for you? not happening


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A lot of those players are scrubs, they come in for a few minutes to give littlie defensive help when the starters are out. The argument is about shutdown perimeter defenders…ron ron, bowen,…not too many of them huh?

First off never call NBA players scrubs, disrespect. and Where does it say shutdown in the topic, i'm serious, dod i read the topic correct? You wanna compare your top dogs to my average then compare Ron Artest to Kobe. Who you taking? Thats what I though.


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Those players have not proven they’re all that on defense, maybe Quinton ross, other than that, none have proven anything. Again, the argument here is about shutdown perimeter defenders not your average ones.

Again those players I lised aren't average, they're know for there defense.How has posey or Shandon proven anything? i'm using them because i watched them every single night. .I thought you wanted me to not to compare my best guys, so I lowered the standards a it a bit so i can compare guys like kyle Korver to Shandon Anderson. Wade has proven he can defend, were you been, he can be one of the leagues best when he's not gambling, so you should be babying him for all his worth.

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another point i wanna make is how one perimeter shutdown defender can affect the team's whole mindset. example of what happend in sacto when ron ron came in..many teams have scorers bro, but defense has always been the key

What if Chris Webber came back? He was a semi perimeter shooter and he got them farther then Artest, thats off topic but Artest does change the team but not like a Ray Allen would or Dirk Nowitzki would(of two years ago when he mostly just shot outside 15ft+, I'm saying Dirk of two years so you won't whine about me comparing top dogs, because if i compared Dirk now I wouldn't here the end of it) . Ray or Dirk would have them averaging 106 points per game .

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Old 09-02-2006, 11:54 PM   #19
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seriously... I am so glad I'm not a judge right now. uninteresting topic and soooooo much to read. ugh.


^^^ Hey its a hard topic and we are trying our best to make it interesting bud
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:42 AM   #20
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Are you watching the same Kobe i'm watching ?He's a good defender and is on first team, so what, that mak shim a shut down defender??? He doesn't shut down his defender time and time again or even every other game. He's great but not at shut down level. maybe once in a great while but that can't classify you at that
.

My point was about the lakers 2000 championship team, you said they didn’t have shutdown perimeter player in kobe well, if kobe was the one who made 1st team all defense and hes not considered a shutdown defender, then who is???

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So? I was just talking about some of the shooters develope those attributes not all, why does that matter? Some do ,some don't. Do the great defenders usually have these? No sir.

you were talking about how shooters will develop that and they will become superstars, however, there are still a lot of shooters that haven’t done so. Either way, this is kind of off topic..

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But it wasnt' that game. It went his way that night . He could also finish any zero turnovers to ten any given night and i'd still go with him. Bowen could tunr it over jsut as much not even bein productive at all.

You’re right, it goes both ways but regardless, allen or any other perimeter scorer will most likely not be as comfortable coming into face someone like artest or bowen and can ultimately affect the team as a whole.

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What are you talking about . I didn't say they were shut down.Please tell me where I said that .Putting word in my mouth son. I said there're known for there defense and there solid because you stated they were rare and hard to find. Which is not the case if I can list 40 in a couple mintues. . Ok I was just rationalizing like i have this whole time to be nice. I compare my best example Kobe to yours Bowen and you say no fair. I compare solid defenders so they can compare to my solid guys and you cry foul. i am suppose to compare Ron Artest to mike james for you? not happening

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You wanna compare your top dogs to my average then compare Ron Artest to Kobe. Who you taking? Thats what I though.

You wanted to make a mock draft and see where defensive players go, this has nothing to do with this topic man. Defensive players are more of importance in terms to winning a basketball game

My bad if it sounded like I was implying you said “shutdown” but you are bringing in players that are not shutdown defenders when that is what this topic is talking about....keith bogans??? Barnes?? Newble??? cassell??? come one. I mean I agree on kidd, payton, kobe, raja,jeffies, test but alot of the ones in there are typical players that get served up by your average swingman. I want you to compare your top dogs…but its irrelevant to go raja vs. Kobe. Pick your player. Kobe does everything better than raja and defensively is not that far off. What Im sayin we can use examples of our top dogs but putting players head to head does not reflect this topic. What is more important? Perimeter shutdown player or big time scorers? Not who will win???


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Again those players I lised aren't average, they're know for there defense.How has posey or Shandon proven anything? i'm using them because i watched them every single night. .I thought you wanted me to not to compare my best guys, so I lowered the standards a it a bit so i can compare guys like kyle Korver to Shandon Anderson. Wade has proven he can defend, were you been, he can be one of the leagues best when he's not gambling, so you should be babying him for all his worth.

Please read the topic: Big time scorers or Shutdown perimeter defenders. and sorry, wade gambles for steals and can disrupt passing lanes, other than that, he gets blown by...

either way, discussing what the topic is about may be irrelvant...

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What if Chris Webber came back? He was a semi perimeter shooter and he got them farther then Artest, thats off topic but Artest does change the team but not like a Ray Allen would or Dirk Nowitzki would(of two years ago when he mostly just shot outside 15ft+, I'm saying Dirk of two years so you won't whine about me comparing top dogs, because if i compared Dirk now I wouldn't here the end of it) . Ray or Dirk would have them averaging 106 points per game.

where has sonics went with allen and no defense. where has dirk went when nelly was in town and they pretty much had no defense. sacto went from a lottery team to a scary playoff team in a matter of months...

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Old 09-03-2006, 12:43 AM   #21
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Again man, I want you to bring your top dogs into this but this is not a who wins..offensive player vs defensive player…this is who is more important to the team. In today’s game, there are sooo many players that can put up points that its really big no deal when kobe or tmac drop 40. so when it most counts, you will need to have a defensive player that can stand up to big time scorers and help your team.

perimeter scoring...how many guys today can score the ball. alot of guys can, they are so abundant in the league today...many many players had a career yr last yr in terms of scoring. this increased trend in scoring results in making offense the main intangible of the game. puttin up points has become so common that there is no unique value to it...two teams can go at it all day long until someone messes up but when you insert a defesive minded player, one who is a shutdown perimeter player, all of a sudden, the opponents perimeter player faces issues...the whole offensive gameplan is disurbed, the game tempo/flow changes...all in favor of your team.

Last edited by hotsizzle : 09-03-2006 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:12 AM   #22
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thanks to whoever gave me this...

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Old 09-03-2006, 09:34 AM   #23
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You know that neg repetation given wasn't me right, since you have a higher rep then me. This is all in fun.

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you were talking about how shooters will develop that and they will become superstars, however, there are still a lot of shooters that haven’t done so. Either way, this is kind of off topic..

Yes sir, just like most of the stuff we have disscussed, its easy to get off topic with this subject.


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[b]You wanted to make a mock draft and see where defensive players go, this has nothing to do with this topic man. Defensive players are more of importance in terms to winning a basketball game

which is more important to a team off the bat? Great offensive shooter, making them more important then defensive off the bat, because we can't go off of which is better to a certain team, but more a a whole nba because the topic dosen't pin one team down.

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My bad if it sounded like I was implying you said “shutdown” but you are bringing in players that are not shutdown defenders when that is what this topic is talking about....keith bogans??? Barnes?? Newble??? cassell??? come one.

Just to show they're are solid defenders in the league, maybe the some people don't relize how many there are even though there not shut down

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Please read the topic: Big time scorers or Shutdown perimeter defenders. and sorry, wade gambles for steals and can disrupt passing lanes, other than that, he gets blown by...

Yes but he has shown games where he can lock down on a defender better then most. Even though he didn't doing it International games he did do a good job in the Finals and some regular season games inpredicular(vs Lakers).
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Old 09-03-2006, 09:37 AM   #24
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Live debating over, closing statements by Monday night at 8pm eastern time please
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Old 09-03-2006, 02:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by HALLandOATES
You know that neg repetation given wasn't me right, since you have a higher rep then me. This is all in fun.

yea man, never thought it was you. probably someone who was sick of the debate.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:37 PM   #26
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I'd like to point out something that just about all people overlook. So

The ceiling for a Great Perimeter defender is to be a "Shut down defender where they stop everyone"
The ceiling for a great Perimeter shooter is they don't miss any shots from the perimeter.

Both are possible to happen every night for a player but we both know both don't happen every night so the chances of either happening are slim to zero. Now which one do you think is harder to accomplish? For me I would say staying perfect from the perimeter .Thats why we need more guys that can shoot from the outside on a consistent basis.
You need to relize that the perimeter shooter does so much more for the offense and defense for a team when hes knocking down shots
- Draws double teams , freeing up other teammates
-When a Perimeter shooter is hitting shots it allows his teammates to get back on defense.
-Gets hes teammates and fans into the game which in turn builds there confidence.

In todays NBA kids are to relying to much on dunking and show boating and not enough on actually shooting the ball . I know you have probably heard that before in the past couple of years if you haven't ....well you have been living under a damn rock. Look what happened in the World Championships this year. Sure the US won its first 7 games but were they winning them with outside shots? No. When they played Greece it was disgusting how Greece took them to school with the pick and roll( One good perimeter defender isn't going to stop that with another one) and the outside shot. Its looked like the Greeks were just jacking up shots like it was nothing. No effort involved what so ever. How many guys in the NBA can you say that about? Peja, Tmac and Kobe is all I can name.
Look at the scoring for teams today in the NBA. Its is way below what it was in the 80's and 90's . There were multilply teams avg. over 110 a night.Now you're offense is considered good if you're team can really put up anything close to 100pts. This is largely in part to defense getting better and driving to the basket one on one instead of passing it to a great perimeter shooter.
The gap may not be far between Great perimeter shooters and Great Perimeter defenders but if push came to shove I would take the Great Perimeter Shooter in a heart beat.Good luck sizz , its been a long but good fight.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:43 PM   #27
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good closing argument man..good luck to you too.

sky, I PMed you my closing argument
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