Obamacare passed by Congress...

[J_Rock3ts]

[QUOTE=http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/5339-breaking-house-democrats-pass-obamacare]By a vote of 219 to 212, the House of Representatives passed the Senate version of ObamaCare, which the president signed will law immediately. Thirty-four Democrats broke with their party to oppose the bill.

The reconciliation package, which fixes issues House Democrats had with the bill, will be voted on next. The reconciliation bill avoids a Republican filibuster.

We

[yobore]

Make sure you heading to eastern europe it would suck to be in one of those european hellholes like norway sweden germany or France with their public health care systems and super-oppressive stalinist type governments that want to take your hard earned money and give it to a bunch of brats who can't even afford their healthcare. if the atlantic weren't so big we'd have seen a lot of them in makeshift boats trying to make it over. If there's one good thing about the rise of this hitleresque policy is we won't ever have to worry about them trying to illegally immigrate here because our country will soon be just as bad.

[IlliniFan]

...I hear the weather's pretty nice in most of Europe this time of year.
You do know that most of Europe has government funded healthcare, right? :hammerhead:

[Showtime]

...I hear the weather's pretty nice in most of Europe this time of year.
Rush apparently is going to Costa Rica...where they have a national health care system.

[J_Rock3ts]

You do know that most of Europe has government funded healthcare, right? :hammerhead:
European countries aren't dealing with a population count as high as ours, nor an economy as shaky as ours.

[RedBlackAttack]

...I hear the weather's pretty nice in most of Europe this time of year.
Don't let the door hit you on the @ss...

[rezznor]

European countries aren't dealing with a population count as high as ours, nor an economy as shaky as ours.
:oldlol:

Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Slovenia, Slovakia, and Greece say hello

[Showtime]

European countries aren't dealing with a population count as high as ours, nor an economy as shaky as ours.
Nor the same health issues from a nation falling apart due to fast food lifestyle and poor health education.

[Undisputed]

Obama wasn't kidding about change. Great victory tonight for America.

[rezznor]

European countries aren't dealing with a population count as high as ours, nor an economy as shaky as ours.

Prepare For Black Wednesday All Over Again As Europe Looks Like


This past week has seen Europe swing from one crisis to the next as attention shifted from a flailing Greek government to Portugal's bout with debt.

At the center of this storm is the European Central Bank which has to make key decisions about how it deals with its Euro member states and whether it is willing to bail them out.

Europe has not been faced with such a crisis since Black Wednesday, when the exchange rate mechanism which held together the continent's currencies was challenged by a cash rich Geoge Soros and his hedge fund.

His moves put Britain moments away from meltdown as he short sold the pound to the point where the UK had to exit the agreement or face massive devaluation.

Now with weak links along its southern underbelly, Europe is doing what it can to preserve countries like Greece and Spain amid sovereign debt crises within those states.

But the result has only been more uncertainty, as CDS spreads have widened in those states and the word bailout is being said without caution throughout the European banking community.

The downward pressure on the Euro this week, coupled with the growing CDS in PIIG countries, is leading towards a scenario where the Euro might face even further devaluation if it doesn't bail out its troubled neighbors.

It's almost as if the ECB's leaders' hands are tied, without a choice, and now they just have to figure out how to bring in their debt ridden stragglers.

Because certainly they can't let them go, as it would undermine the Euro and, more broadly, the European Union project it is so heavily tied to. Right?


If you don't know what you are talking about you should just refrain from posting.

[Tito Beasley]

The only people this helps are the people who aren't doing anything for society. Essentially communities that have exploding out-of-wedlock birth rates, low education rates, AWFUL parenting, poor diet etc. etc.

This is all going to be paid for by responsible Americans and the burden is going to be massive. That is extremely unfair.

But ideological liberal loony toons will celebrate because of how great it sounds "in theory" and of course don't actually CARE what the consequences of its practical application are.

Liberals just look at the ends and completely disregard the impact of the means. If it sounds like it makes sense in a perfect fairy world, it is the liberal's cup of tea.

****ign pathetic.

[D.J.]

Obama's plan would take close to 5 years to implement anyway. It doesn't go into effect this very second. 5 years from now, Obama might not even be in office and that's a good possibility as he's going to lose a lot of votes because of this.

[DeuceWallaces]

The only people this helps are the people who aren't doing anything for society.

So you're pretty happy with this? Zappos pretty much renders you useless.

[yobore]

i already got mine.

poor people shouldn't be allowed in the us cuz they don't pay as much taxes as me.

[Tito Beasley]

HOnestly, there needs to be some land somewhere that a new country can be started.

America is going to look like a shithole in 20 years because liberals are such cowards that they refuse to ask anyone to be accountable for themselves, and just swindle money from anyone making it in order to babysit the little guy. this is just so embarrassing.

[Tito Beasley]

So you're pretty happy with this? Zappos pretty much renders you useless.

I have healthcare through my job. Do you?

Oh wait, you don't have an actual job. You study plant leaves and write meaningless papers about them and go on the internet and complain about everythign in the world and pretend you have a girlfriend.

Do me a favor and can it, rapunzel.

[RealKnowledge]

The only people this helps are the people who aren't doing anything for society. Essentially communities that have exploding out-of-wedlock birth rates, low education rates, AWFUL parenting, poor diet etc. etc.

This is all going to be paid for by responsible Americans and the burden is going to be massive. That is extremely unfair.

But ideological liberal loony toons will celebrate because of how great it sounds "in theory" and of course don't actually CARE what the consequences of its practical application are.

Liberals just look at the ends and completely disregard the impact of the means. If it sounds like it makes sense in a perfect fairy world, it is the liberal's cup of tea.

****ign pathetic.
Agreed

[boozehound]

Rush apparently is going to Costa Rica...where they have a national health care system.
he needs to refill his 'scrip again?

[Tito Beasley]

Yeah.

Who's your provider? How much is your share of the premium?

[D.J.]

Just wanted to add a bit more to my first post:


This topic will be in court rooms for quite some times. It will be mentioned that it is unconstitutional. Also, Obama may not be president in 3-5 years when it is implemented. What will happen if you have a Republican president when this plan is ready to begin?

[DeuceWallaces]

All paid by my department through UK Healthcare; I pay 20% elsewhere through Aetna I think, or whatever they're called now.

[Younggrease]

HOnestly, there needs to be some land somewhere that a new country can be started.

America is going to look like a shithole in 20 years because liberals are such cowards that they refuse to ask anyone to be accountable for themselves, and just swindle money from anyone making it in order to babysit the little guy. this is just so embarrassing.

you talk a lot...and seem to call a lot of people out. So for future reference, what do you do?

[DeuceWallaces]

He sells shoes.

[BRabbiT]

...This topic will be in court rooms for quite some times. It will be mentioned that it is unconstitutional. Also, Obama may not be president in 3-5 years when it is implemented. What will happen if you have a Republican president when this plan is ready to begin?

good point.

[Tito Beasley]

Dude honestly, I'm not against what amounts to a nation-wide insurance pool, IF the social responsibility in the country is relatively evenly spread.

That's just NOT the case in America. There is a lot of weight at the bottom that isn't even TRYING to help itself. And liberals want responsible Americans to basically strap them on our backs and carry them. Why? Because they're AFRAID to tell other communities to get their act together. They gotta walk on those PC eggshells. This is unbelievably pathetic.

These liberal hippies dont really understand how much of the lifestyle they enjoy is dependent on the work that business people and corporations do. They think money is just free and that the more that share it, the merrier, regardless of who's pulling weight and who's not.

[RedBlackAttack]

Obama's plan would take close to 5 years to implement anyway. It doesn't go into effect this very second. 5 years from now, Obama might not even be in office and that's a good possibility as he's going to lose a lot of votes because of this.
There are certain aspects that will go into effect immediately.

*HMOs will not be allowed to put caps on healthcare claims.

*It will give immediate relief to those with serious illnesses that have pre-existing conditions.

*There will be immediate relief for children with pre-existing conditions.

*Children will be covered until the age of 26.

*Small business will get immediate tax credits to help them provide for their employees.

*Insurance companies will be forced to cover preventive care that could offset disease or illness.

*There will be an appeals process for those that think they were wrongly denied care by their health insurer.

*Seniors will receive an extra $250 to help pay for expensive medicine.

All of these things will go into effect immediately. Also, I have a strange feeling that once these things start to take hold, public opinion will change on the quality of the bill. People are never happy with the process, but the final result is usually all that matters.

We'll see how this turns out.

And, yes... I've been fully covered for years.

[Tito Beasley]

you talk a lot...and seem to call a lot of people out. So for future reference, what do you do?

I've been working at Macy's, I took a leave of absence for the time being to focus on a career in entertainment, and will return during the holidays if I decide to.

What do you do?

[Younggrease]

I've been working at Macy's, I took a leave of absence for the time being to focus on a career in entertainment, and will return during the holidays if I decide to.

What do you do?

its not important, I wasnt the one calling people out the last couple of days.

[RealKnowledge]

I wish i knew a lil more about politics before i voted. I voted for obama just because he was black and my parents did. I just turned 18 before the election. But this guy is cool with Gay marriages, abortions, passing this stupid Healthcare thats going to give healthcare to people who already leeching off section 8 and a bunch of government money and dont get of their lazy asses. You know how long it takes yo get a doctos appoinment in CAlifronia? Minimum of a motha and usually longer. Can you imagine when everybody has healthcare? Man people going to have to wait 5 months to a year for an appoinment? Thats ridiculous.
Country going to hit rock bottom.

[BRabbiT]

..Dude honestly, I'm not against what amounts to a nation-wide insurance pool, IF the social responsibility in the country is relatively evenly spread...They gotta walk on those PC eggshells. This is unbelievably pathetic. These liberal hippies dont really understand how much of the lifestyle they enjoy is dependent on the work that business people and corporations do. They think money is just free and that the more that share it, the merrier, regardless of who's pulling weight and who's not.



a) the egg shells when W. was president were brittle, too.

b) hippies are to liberals what red necks are to republicans. not all socialists are hippies...anymore.

[Tito Beasley]

What do you do?



its not important


i already assumed that, but what actually is it?

[DonDadda59]

There are certain aspects that will go into effect immediately.

*HMOs will not be allowed to put caps on healthcare claims.

*It will give immediate relief to those with serious illnesses that have pre-existing conditions.

*There will be immediate relief for children with pre-existing conditions.

*Children will be covered until the age of 26.

*Small business will get immediate tax credits to help them provide for their employees.

*Insurance companies will be forced to cover preventive care that could offset disease or illness.

*There will be an appeals process for those that think they were wrongly denied care by their health insurer.

*Seniors will receive an extra $250 to help pay for expensive medicine.

All of these things will go into effect immediately. Also, I have a strange feeling that once these things start to take hold, public opinion will change on the quality of the bill. People are never happy with the process, but the final result is usually all that matters.

We'll see how this turns out.

And, yes... I've been fully covered for years.
I feel the same exact way. Once people realize that they can't be denied coverage because of their high blood pressure, or a past medical condition which would've left them out in the cold and they realize that their kid's asthma issue won't be used as a reason to deny the health care they need... they'll throw away the effigies, pitchforks, and McCarthy era red scare rhetoric and realize that this historic reform is a great benefit to them.

And why the hell does EVERY thread turn into an Al Bundy vs Deuces slap fight? :wtf:

[Tito Beasley]

b) hippies are to liberals what red necks are to republicans. not all socialists are hippies...anymore.


you're right, i guess they've moved away from the hippie trend and more towards the "nerd/emo" trend. still, the amount of worthlessness is the same.

[Tito Beasley]

I wish i knew a lil more about politics before i voted. I voted for obama just because he was black and my parents did. I just turned 18 before the election. But this guy is cool with Gay marriages, abortions, passing this stupid Healthcare thats going to give healthcare to people who already leeching off section 8 and a bunch of government money and dont get of their lazy asses. You know how long it takes yo get a doctos appoinment in CAlifronia? Minimum of a motha and usually longer. Can you imagine when everybody has healthcare? Man people going to have to wait 5 months to a year for an appoinment? Thats ridiculous.
Country going to hit rock bottom.

bald midget, put on those pink and green board shorts and dance.

[RedBlackAttack]

I wish i knew a lil more about politics
I concur.

[Tito Beasley]

I concur.

it's legend of josh.

[RealKnowledge]

bald midget, put on those pink and green board shorts and dance.
Homo delusional f@G

[Younggrease]

i already assumed that, but what actually is it?

Im a law student in the tri county area...This summer I will be splitting my summer between the Manhatten EEOC office and a north jersey prosectors office. Im leaning towards practicing employment law, after last summer I realized corporate wasnt for me.

[D.J.]

There are certain aspects that will go into effect immediately.

*HMOs will not be allowed to put caps on healthcare claims.

*It will give immediate relief to those with serious illnesses that have pre-existing conditions.

*There will be immediate relief for children with pre-existing conditions.

*Children will be covered until the age of 26.

*Small business will get immediate tax credits to help them provide for their employees.

*Insurance companies will be forced to cover preventive care that could offset disease or illness.

*There will be an appeals process for those that think they were wrongly denied care by their health insurer.

*Seniors will receive an extra $250 to help pay for expensive medicine.

All of these things will go into effect immediately. Also, I have a strange feeling that once these things start to take hold, public opinion will change on the quality of the bill. People are never happy with the process, but the final result is usually all that matters.

We'll see how this turns out.

And, yes... I've been fully covered for years.


Not that I disagree with those aspects, but that is only a very small portion of the bill. You are going to have many Republicans(maybe even some Democrats as well) that will bring this into court and claim it's unconstitutional. The entire bill cannot go into effect immediately.

Obama has good intentions and I never disagreed with that. This bill will either save this country or destroy it. There won't be a middle ground because it's that significant of an event.

[Tito Beasley]

Im a law student in the tri county area...This summer I will be splitting my summer between the Manhatten EEOC office and a north jersey prosectors office.

And you support national healthcare, is that correct?

[Younggrease]

And you support national healthcare, is that correct?

Yes, I support health care reform. Many of my classmates support it as well.

[Tito Beasley]

Obama has good intentions and I never disagreed with that. This bill will either save this country or destroy it. There won't be a middle ground because it's that significant of an event.

What will it save?

What incentive now do people have to live healthy? Obesity is already a pandemic practically. Now people are gonna get all their diabetes treatment paid for and continue to eat and smoke and have mad kids? This is going to be SO expensive, these people don't understand.

This does nothing. Seriously, the people without insurance are the people who havent TRIED to get insurance. They don't care. They're not living a productive existence. We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.

[Tito Beasley]

Yes, I support health care reform. Many of my classmates support it as well.

Why, exactly? I haven't heard you articulate much on the subject.

Care to share a few remarks?

[Showtime]

What incentive now do people have to live healthy?

Are you freaking retarded? Ever heard of quality of life? You act as if anybody who lives a healthy lifestyle is doing it for monetary reasons. How about "not dying at 50 for 100 alex".


Obesity is already a pandemic practically. Now people are gonna get all their diabetes treatment paid for and continue to eat and smoke and have mad kids?

If it's already a pandemic, than your entire premise really goes to sh!t. It wouldn't be a pandemic if your point held any validity. People are still going to do those things and HAVE been doing those things with the current system, so trying to say it will just get worse because people will live the way they want is an incredibly stupid comment.


This does nothing. Seriously, the people without insurance are the people who havent TRIED to get insurance. They don't care. They're not living a productive existence. We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.
Why do you feel those without insurance are unemployed? There are people who have jobs but can't get insurance. You are ignorant if you believe everybody this might help is some unemployed welfare mom of 3 who feeds off the government. That's not the case. And yet you go in other threads and trash people for making sweeping descriptions and stereotypes, and that's exactly the kind of ignorance you spew. Go away.

[Younggrease]

Why, exactly? I haven't heard you articulate much on the subject.

Care to share a few remarks?

Its honestly because Im having a deep struggle with the issue. But I feel that there needs to be a base of health care in this country. People shouldnt struggle/die in this country for lack of health care and if this is the only feasilble way of fixing it them Im good. I think its a moral decision and thats where I come out on it, i dont like paying extra out of whatever money I earn in the future but I feel it is something we need to stand for...although I question if now is the right time for this.

[D.J.]

What will it save?

What incentive now do people have to live healthy? Obesity is already a pandemic practically. Now people are gonna get all their diabetes treatment paid for and continue to eat and smoke and have mad kids? This is going to be SO expensive, these people don't understand.

This does nothing. Seriously, the people without insurance are the people who havent TRIED to get insurance. They don't care. They're not living a productive existence. We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.


Completely, utter bullsh*t. There are some people like that, but there are people that want insurance that can't get it because they have a pre-existing condition or they can't afford it. Those people will be able to access care and remain healthy. Some people are not motivated to staying healthy, but many are.

You know what's also expensive? War. That's also expensive as hell, but many people ignore that fact. And to claim he's benefitting black people is racist in itself and this is coming from someone that is half black.

[RedBlackAttack]

Not that I disagree with those aspects, but that is only a very small portion of the bill. You are going to have many Republicans(maybe even some Democrats as well) that will bring this into court and claim it's unconstitutional. The entire bill cannot go into effect immediately.

Obama has good intentions and I never disagreed with that. This bill will either save this country or destroy it. There won't be a middle ground because it's that significant of an event.
I never said that every aspect would go into effect immediately. You said that it would take five years for anyone to reap the benefits of the bill, though. That just isn't true and I consider all of those things that I listed to be very important aspects of the legislation.

I also disagree that the bill will either make or break America. Not to diminish its importance, but even if the bill doesn't reduce the deficit as reported by the CBO, it will be a fraction of the cost in comparison to our defense spending. If anything is going to bankrupt the country, it is our occupation of lands around the world and our proclivity to spend billions upon billions upon billions on cool toys.

[~primetime~]

I just read over the major details of this bill...

I like the sound of it so far...


our health care here SUCKS...and we are the most powerful country in the world...we shouldn't have such sub par health care...

f*ck greedy credit companies...

[IcanzIIravor]

What will it save?

What incentive now do people have to live healthy? Obesity is already a pandemic practically. Now people are gonna get all their diabetes treatment paid for and continue to eat and smoke and have mad kids? This is going to be SO expensive, these people don't understand.

This does nothing. Seriously, the people without insurance are the people who havent TRIED to get insurance. They don't care. They're not living a productive existence. We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.

What is the incentive for those who already have healthcare? Just because healthcare is available doesn't mean a person who wants to take care of their health will suddenly stop doing so.

So you think this was about Obama helping out black people? I won't even try to debate you on this subject now.

[Undisputed]

How will Obama lose votes over actually doing something he based a huge part of his campaign on? How dare he actually do something about changing a f*cked up business practice by insurance companies, right? How dare he change something... :oldlol:

[Tito Beasley]

Are you freaking retarded? Ever heard of quality of life? You act as if anybody who lives a healthy lifestyle is doing it for monetary reasons. How about "not dying at 50 for 100 alex".


You're nitpicking my wording because you have absolutely nothing intelligent to offer. Clearly what I meant was that this invites people to be as unhealthy as they want and get fixed up for free any time they need it. Do you have any concept of what kind of a problem obesity and diabetes are becoming? And how expensive it is to treat THAT many people? Of course you don't. You're just an ideological crybaby who thinks its only fair to have someone responsible playing nurse for groups that outnumber them exponentially who arent responsible. That's your solution. Cuz you're a dumb liberal f@ggot.






Why do you feel those without insurance are unemployed? There are people who have jobs but can't get insurance.

Give me an example of someone with a job who can't afford insurance. Give me their age and their job.

[DeuceWallaces]

Starface is a bigot-racist. Don't even listen to his BS.

[D.J.]

I never said that every aspect would go into effect immediately. You said that it would take five years for anyone to reap the benefits of the bill, though. That just isn't true and I consider all of those things that I listed to be very important aspects of the legislation.

I also disagree that the bill will either make or break America. Not to diminish its importance, but even if the bill doesn't reduce the deficit as reported by the CBO, it will be a fraction of the cost in comparison to our defense spending. If anything is going to bankrupt the country, it is our occupation of lands around the world and our proclivity to spend billions upon billions upon billions on cool toys.


No, I said 5 years to implement. Implement as in everything going into effect, not just certain aspects. This could easily break America. We all know this will cost a lot of money, so if fails, then the debt may be impossible to eliminate or even reduce. I agree about our defense spending though. That was the point I was trying to make when people make it seem like this plan will be the sole reason for our increased debt(if that happens of course).

[chazzy]

We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.

You're knowledgeable, but statements like that make it hard for people to take you seriously.

[TooDeep]

Starface is a bigot-racist. Don't even listen to his BS.

Damn baby, Can daddy hit it from the back?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[D.J.]

How will Obama lose votes over actually doing something he based a huge part of his campaign on? How dare he actually do something about changing a f*cked up business practice by insurance companies, right? How dare he change something... :oldlol:


He could easily lose votes. There are still many people that strongly oppose his plan. Some of those people even voted for him, so this would easily be a reason for not voting for him. I don't disagree that there needs to be a reform. But many people do question whether this will work.

[Tito Beasley]

there are people that want insurance that can't get it because they have a pre-existing condition or they can't afford it.


I have no problem with assistance being provided to those with documented pre-existing conditions who don't qualify for insurance. But that number is much, much smaller than the number of people who simply don't bother to get insurance or don't work or don't do anything productive and live unhealthy and basically are just animals in the concrete jungle. Hey, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be offensive but that is a REALITY in this country, and it's a growing reality.

And yes, I absolutely do believe that with all the historical ramifications of Obama as the first black president and all the sentiment about it in the black community, he feels obligated to do something major to specifically help them, in order to justify all the hope they put in him. I have no problem with Barrack Obama as a person. I disagree with some/many of his policies. But I have no prejudice against him, but I absolutely do believe that is a huge part of what motivates his push for healthcare.

[dashoebox]

since there are so many experts on politics on this board can one of you please explain to me why this healthcare plan is bad? I'm not very good at understanding politics. Thanks!!

[RedBlackAttack]

I actually like debating starface. He certainly isn't stupid. However, when he starts getting into socio-economics, the breakdown of the rich and poor and how they got that way, and his thoughts on race in America, I have to opt out. Otherwise, it is going to turn into a mudslinging match and the necessity to bring up topics that I don't feel even apply to this debate.

I really wish he would keep the discussion to the merits of the bill and its possible positives/negatives instead of turning this into a forum for him to discuss why he has no compassion for the lower class.

[Undisputed]

He could easily lose votes. There are still many people that strongly oppose his plan. Some of those people even voted for him, so this would easily be a reason for not voting for him. I don't disagree that there needs to be a reform. But many people do question whether this will work.
It's what the people who voted him into office wanted. If you were against healthcare reform, you probably wouldn't have voted for Obama. Reform is needed, Obama is getting it done. Will it work or not? We'll have to see, but he's actually doing some walking here, not just the usual talking and no action.

[TooDeep]

I have no problem with assistance being provided to those with documented pre-existing conditions who don't qualify for insurance. But that number is much, much smaller than the number of people who simply don't bother to get insurance or don't work or don't do anything productive and live unhealthy and basically are just animals in the concrete jungle. Hey, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be offensive but that is a REALITY in this country, and it's a growing reality.

And yes, I absolutely do believe that with all the historical ramifications of Obama as the first black president and all the sentiment about it in the black community, he feels obligated to do something major to specifically help them, in order to justify all the hope they put in him. I have no problem with Barrack Obama as a person. I disagree with some/many of his policies. But I have no prejudice against him, but I absolutely do believe that is a huge part of what motivates his push for healthcare.

http://blogs.intel.com/csr/images/black_power.jpg

Don't be hatin on the brothas

[DeuceWallaces]

That argument is so stupid, because more white people will benefit from this bill. It's not even close.

[TooDeep]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd275/jaadkins2006/gingers.jpg

[D.J.]

I have no problem with assistance being provided to those with documented pre-existing conditions who don't qualify for insurance. But that number is much, much smaller than the number of people who simply don't bother to get insurance or don't work or don't do anything productive and live unhealthy and basically are just animals in the concrete jungle. Hey, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be offensive but that is a REALITY in this country, and it's a growing reality.


And they absolutely should be able to have access to health care. I don't disagree with that at all. But I think you're underestimating the number of those types of people. Think about those that work for a small, private company and were laid off or had some/most of their benefits taken away. Obesity is high and it is reality, but so is the recession and the people that were laid off and cannot afford insurance or have/had great trouble finding another job with those same benefits.



And yes, I absolutely do believe that with all the historical ramifications of Obama as the first black president and all the sentiment about it in the black community, he feels obligated to do something major to specifically help them, in order to justify all the hope they put in him. I have no problem with Barrack Obama as a person. I disagree with some/many of his policies. But I have no prejudice against him, but I absolutely do believe that is a huge part of what motivates his push for healthcare.


Obama provides hope to a lot of minorities, especially African-Americans. But there are also many Caucasians that support him. Obama will be a significant figure forever whether people like it or not. But we have problems that aren't race related that need to be focused on.

[Tito Beasley]

I actually like debating starface. He certainly isn't stupid. However, when he starts getting into socio-economics, the breakdown of the rich and poor and how they got that way, and his thoughts on race in America, I have to opt out. Otherwise, it is going to turn into a mudslinging match and the necessity to bring up topics that I don't feel even apply to this debate.

I really wish he would keep the discussion to the merits of the bill and its possible positives/negatives instead of turning this into a forum for him to discuss why he has no compassion for the lower class.


Dude I have compassion for the lower class. I'm part of the lower class right now! But here are two things you aren't considering:

It doesn't matter how they got that way. They need to get out of that way. And babying and throwing money at them won't do it. I don't care about being insensitive or being villainized. Cultural habits in certain communities are negatively impact America as a whole and I want to see that changed. Coddling and ignoring it doesn't do any good! That's all that's being done! Everyone is afraid to say OK THESE PEOPLE SERIOUSLY NEED TO STOP because they're afraid of the big bad race card. The protective cloak around discussions of race that the left wing has created by their use of the race card is hurting everybody. And they don't even realize it.

Also: In any society, there are REALITIES when you don't earn that much. You aren't gonna have the same thigns other people have. Is that ideal? No. Is it LIFE? Yes. Liberals are just broken to pieces when they see someone struggling. Hey, sorry, help them where you can but you can't just put them on someone else's back and have them be carried because it makes you feel good. That's not how a society works.

[DeuceWallaces]

There's a big difference between lower class and being a daddy's boy.

[Tito Beasley]

That argument is so stupid, because more white people will benefit from this bill. It's not even close.

I wouldn't care who benefits from the bill as long as they're socially responsible. Like I said, I have no problem with the idea of the bill, were it being applied to a place where the mindset and culture is more in sync. But there are communities where a vastly disproportionate number of people are basically gonna be paid for and return nothing other than guns, drugs, babies, prison terms etc.

And please, idiots, note my use of the term COMMUNITIES and not RACES. Numerous people from every race make up the socially responsible community in America. But there are huge communities of people who don't. More so than any western european country or Canada. That is a fact. The cost of covering them is exorbitant.

[PistolPete]

I wish i knew a lil more about politics before i voted. I voted for obama just because he was black and my parents did.

You're joking right?

[Rake2204]

What will it save?

What incentive now do people have to live healthy? Obesity is already a pandemic practically. Now people are gonna get all their diabetes treatment paid for and continue to eat and smoke and have mad kids? This is going to be SO expensive, these people don't understand.

This does nothing. Seriously, the people without insurance are the people who havent TRIED to get insurance. They don't care. They're not living a productive existence. We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.
My incentive for living healthy is to be healthy.

I recently graduated from college in Michigan and have been unable to find full-time employment. The only employment I could find were two part-time jobs (and a very part-time third job) related to my field but they do not pay well enough nor is the work steady enough for me to afford health insurance.

It is quite stressful to live without health insurance. Often I am hesitant to exercise or play basketball due to the potential fallout that would come with say, tearing an ACL and having no coverage. A recent medical emergency (no relation to basketball) without insurance has left me with a $1300 medical bill.

I know another medical emergency may put me down for the count, but I cannot stop exercising, you know? So essentially, I just pray my knees don't give out at this point and I stop at near any feeling of pain - just in case it could lead to something serious. It's not a fun way to live, but I know I'm one of the luckier people without health insurance at this point. I am employed in some fashion and a $1300 health bill isn't so bad compared to what I bet many families are facing.

Of all the things people should be helped with, I think the ability to live and be healthy should be right at the top. I feel everyone deserves the right to be aided in living a healthy life without falling into paralyzing medical debt.

[Tito Beasley]

My incentive for living healthy is to be healthy.

I recently graduated from college in Michigan and have been unable to find full-time employment. The only employment I could find were two part-time jobs (and a very part-time third job) related to my field but they do not pay well enough nor is the work steady enough for me to afford health insurance.


How much would it cost you a month for coverage? Even if you don't get insurance through your workplace, there are a lot of programs that subsidize insurance for those with low income. You might have to make some sacrifices in order to afford it, but that comes down to priorities.

As far as ACL's go, despite common misconception, those don't REQUIRE surgery. Athletes usually have surgery because it guarantees the correct healing and does it faster, but people were tearing ACL's long before there was surgery for it, and they weren't crippled for life. You take it easy and use crutches for a while and it will heal.

[RedBlackAttack]

It doesn't matter how they got that way. They need to get out of that way. And babying and throwing money at them won't do it. I don't care about being insensitive or being villainized. Cultural habits in certain communities are negatively impact America as a whole and I want to see that changed. Coddling and ignoring it doesn't do any good!
I would say that 'coddling' is the last way I would describe how the lower and middle classes have been treated since the Reagan administration (and through Clinton, to be fair).

All of these deregulations on the banking industry resulted in the middle class and lower classes getting completely used and abused. Deregulation on the American industrial complex has resulted in millions and millions of factory jobs that used to keep the middle class afloat and gave uneducated Americans a way to make an honest living being shipped overseas to make a few extra bucks. HMOs, which were created during the Nixon administration, make more money with the less care that they cover, which once again screws the middle and lower classes, often burying them in debt or allowing them to die away with no medical help.

The lower class is growing and the middle class is almost completely gone in this country and that is with a whole lot of deregulation by Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. That has been the trend for three decades. Look at the statistics.

So, 'coddled' is not an appropriate term for the way the middle and lower classes have been treated for the past 30 years.

Now, our government is trying to take a different approach to one that clearly isn't working by laying down restrictions on the HMOs and actually helping impoverished Americans (along with all other citizens) and it is the end of the world.

Why don't we wait until this thing plays out until we start creating Doomsday scenarios?

[Hawker]

Man, I can't believe this shit passed. It finally happened. Props to Obama to doing what he said he would do but I'm not in agreement with this bill.

And the current (not anymore) health insurance was 50% government run and 2/3 of it was government spending. Get that "health insurance is already deregulated" BS outta here.

[DeuceWallaces]

As far as ACL's go, despite common misconception, those don't REQUIRE surgery. Athletes usually have surgery because it guarantees the correct healing and does it faster, but people were tearing ACL's long before there was surgery for it, and they weren't crippled for life. You take it easy and use crutches for a while and it will heal.

That is ENTIRELY false. It does not heal on its own. If you want to do anything more than walk slowly the rest of your life (even that would be dangerous and with zero stability), you'll need surgery.

[RedBlackAttack]

And the current (not anymore) health insurance was 50% government run and 2/3 of it was government spending. Get that "health insurance is already deregulated" BS outta here.
We aren't talking about medicaid or children covered by their parents' HMOs. We are talking about deregulation which causes insurance companies to literally pour over claim applications with a fine tune comb, looking for reasons not to cover people who have paid into their insurance for decades. That should never happen.

It is the lack of government oversight which led HMOs to coin the term 'pre-existing condition' and put caps on coverage which drives Americans into bankruptcy.

These greedy bastards need regulation and I'm glad that we've taken a step in that direction.

[Tito Beasley]

All of these deregulations on the banking industry resulted in the middle class and lower classes getting completely used and abused. Deregulation on the American industrial complex has resulted in millions and millions of factory jobs that used to keep the middle class afloat and gave uneducated Americans a way to make an honest living being shipped overseas to make a few extra bucks.

This stuff is actually much ado about nothing. Don't look at classes, look at quality of life. Deregulation may sacrifice some middle class jobs, but it also provides things much cheaper. So, whether you're making a middle class wage and paying x amount in living expenses vs. making a "low class" wage and paying x - 30% cost of living doesn't really matter.

What it comes down to is how much your country produces. It doesn't matter where the money is concentrated in our country. It matters how much of the worlds market share we take in. Are we selling a lot of stuff? The money in our own country will circulate regardless of the economic system. But to continue moving forward, you have to use that money for investment. National healthcare is gonna take a lot of that investment money, and make basically put it into a fiscally dormant social program.

[GatorKid117]

I don't know much about health care in general or this reform. I'm still on my parents insurance :lol But I figured I'd share my thoughts anyway. My figures are not all up to date. Some date back to 2005 while others are more recent, my apologies.

Our health care system whether you want to admit it or not needs to be changed. It is by far the least efficient system in the world (1.2 trillion was calculated as unnecessary) compared to how much we spend. This includes unnecessary middle-men, duplicate paperwork, wasteful procedures and tests, corruption, fraud, bad management, etc. We are ranked 37th in the world health care rankings while we spend almost double the world average per capita on each citizen.

Every American wants the newest and most expensive technology even when not needed. Doctors feel the need to prescribe unnecessary tests (defensive medicine) just to make sure they don't get sued. Heck, a good portion of OBGYN's salaries goes to malpractice insurance. Plus, even when malpractice lawsuits are successful, the inefficiency of tort reforms does not leave that much money for the plantiff anyway. The system is a total mess.

Insurance wise, 16% of our population is uninsured which equates to about 47 million. 9.4 million children were insured as of 2006 and it is a figure that has increased every year. Is that fair for children? For Florida, 75% of those uninsured have jobs. Premiums on insurance have continued to rise which has forced employers, especially small business employers to shift costs onto their employees. Premiums have increased 87% since 2000.

So for those people saying the uninsured need to get jobs to get their insurance and are lazy, you are quite wrong. Most of the uninsured are US citizens and are from working families.

For those on welfare, welfare reform has not been effective because the jobs they are forced to take usually do not offer insurance and because of their job they are no longer able to get Medicare.

What doctors think of the future: SEVENTY ONE PERCENT SAY THERE WILL BE GREATER LIMITATIONS ON THE SERVICES THEY PROVIDE TO PATIENTS.

SIXTY TWO PERCENT SAY IT WILL BE MORE DIFFICULT TO SPEND THE CURRENT AMOUNT OF TIME WITH PATIENTS.

FIFTY FIVE PERCENT SAY IT WILL BE MORE DIFFICULT TO PROVIDE CARE THAT BOTH THEY AND THEIR PATIENTS FEEL IS NECESSARY.

Sorry for the caps, it was cut and paste.

Anyway, I haven't done much research into the new health plan bill but I at the very least see it as a step in the right direction. Something needs to be done, whether it is this bill or something else I don't know. But I for one think our current health care system needs a major overhaul. Change is not always bad. And for the record, I am not against universal health care.

[Alhazred]

I have no problem with assistance being provided to those with documented pre-existing conditions who don't qualify for insurance. But that number is much, much smaller than the number of people who simply don't bother to get insurance or don't work or don't do anything productive and live unhealthy and basically are just animals in the concrete jungle. Hey, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be offensive but that is a REALITY in this country, and it's a growing reality.

Do you mind telling us how you came up with that conclusion?

[Showtime]

You're nitpicking my wording because you have absolutely nothing intelligent to offer.

It's not nitpicking when I attacked the crux of your post.


Clearly what I meant was that this invites people to be as unhealthy as they want and get fixed up for free any time they need it.

And I clearly responded (which you conveniently omitted) that the health issues in this nation, which you yourself said was already near pandemic levels, shows that people ARE ALREADY unhealthy, and will continue to live the lifestyles they want REGARDLESS of the health care system, because they have been doing so with the current system. So your point is moot.


Do you have any concept of what kind of a problem obesity and diabetes are becoming?

Yes, and the fact that they are such large problems proves your point wrong. People will live unhealthy lifestyles regardless of health care.


Give me an example of someone with a job who can't afford insurance. Give me their age and their job.

Part time public school employee. State budget cuts here in Cali have forced serious cutbacks in staff positions.

[Tito Beasley]

Do you mind telling us how you came up with that conclusion?

Dude how many people do you know with a medical condition that precludes them from getting insurance? Versus essentially the population of every major inner-city combined. Come on.

[Jello]

since there are so many experts on politics on this board can one of you please explain to me why this healthcare plan is bad? I'm not very good at understanding politics. Thanks!!
There's nothing in the bill that leads to real reform. No medicare buy-in or public option. No method to force for-profit companies out of the health industry. No drug reimportation or price negotiation. No proper state single payer waiver.

[RedBlackAttack]

This stuff is actually much ado about nothing. Don't look at classes, look at quality of life. Deregulation may sacrifice some middle class jobs, but it also provides things much cheaper. So, whether you're making a middle class wage and paying x amount in living expenses vs. making a "low class" wage and paying x - 30% cost of living doesn't really matter.

What it comes down to is how much your country produces. It doesn't matter where the money is concentrated in our country. It matters how much of the worlds market share we take in. Are we selling a lot of stuff? The money in our own country will circulate regardless of the economic system. But to continue moving forward, you have to use that money for investment. National healthcare is gonna take a lot of that investment money, and make basically put it into a fiscally dormant social program.
It is tough to buy things, even when they are cheaper, when you can't find a job because the American corporations have deemed it more cost efficient to put Americans out of work and to send those jobs to countries that don't have unions, have no restrictions on working conditions and can even institute child labor.

And, it does matter how things are produced. The way that the middle class is sustained is by American corporations giving jobs to those that are willing to work for a decent wage. The money is coming in regardless. They can choose to be more cost effective and send jobs out of the country which will make them richer and give the potential workers less opportunities or to support the American worker and re-circulate a relatively small portion of that vast income to their countrymen. With our current structure, much less money is sent overseas to employ people who will do things much cheaper... The kind of wages that panhandlers far exceed in America.

The gap between rich and poor grows every year in this country, so obviously it DOES matter how that production is conducted and how that money coming in is circulated.

The richest 1 percent now earn more than the bottom 80 percent in America. That is a broken system. There are a lot of positives to a capitalistic society, but it can also be dangerous when all of the money is going to a tiny aristocratic class at the top of the pecking order. That is the situation we are facing.

[Tito Beasley]

Our health care system whether you want to admit it or not needs to be changed.

I don't disagree with this. I'm just disappointed that as usual, the liberal solution is to just throw rich people's money at the problem, rather than actually attempting to change peoples attitudes/values/priorities in such a way as to prevent much of the problem.

Liberals are afraid to stand up to anyone. They just wanna throw some money at the problem and in order to cover the stench a bit, rather than actually get to the root of the problem because it's uncomfortable.

[JtotheIzzo]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/383021/rem_the_end_ot_the_world/

[GatorKid117]

I don't disagree with this. I'm just disappointed that as usual, the liberal solution is to just throw rich people's money at the problem, rather than actually attempting to change peoples attitudes/values/priorities in such a way as to prevent much of the problem.

Liberals are afraid to stand up to anyone. They just wanna throw some money at the problem and in order to cover the stench a bit, rather than actually get to the root of the problem because it's uncomfortable.

I'll take your word for it. I despise politics; I honestly don't know many of the differences b/t liberal/conservative so I can't really comment. But yes, change is needed!

[kenuffff]

Dude honestly, I'm not against what amounts to a nation-wide insurance pool, IF the social responsibility in the country is relatively evenly spread.

That's just NOT the case in America. There is a lot of weight at the bottom that isn't even TRYING to help itself. And liberals want responsible Americans to basically strap them on our backs and carry them. Why? Because they're AFRAID to tell other communities to get their act together. They gotta walk on those PC eggshells. This is unbelievably pathetic.

These liberal hippies dont really understand how much of the lifestyle they enjoy is dependent on the work that business people and corporations do. They think money is just free and that the more that share it, the merrier, regardless of who's pulling weight and who's not.

^mom and dad are rich

[Tito Beasley]

I'll take your word for it. I despise politics; I honestly don't know many of the differences b/t liberal/conservative so I can't really comment. But yes, change is needed!

My parents are both UF alum. You go to school in Gainesville i take it?

[Tito Beasley]

^mom and dad are rich

Nice contribution.

[Rake2204]

How much would it cost you a month for coverage? Even if you don't get insurance through your workplace, there are a lot of programs that subsidize insurance for those with low income. You might have to make some sacrifices in order to afford it, but that comes down to priorities.
Yes sir, and in fact just tonight I was trying to put everything down on paper and attempting to come across a program that may work in my regard. In the least, I would just love to have a low-level program that may cushion the blow of a major medical setback and I was looking into a few of those options this evening. It's a little disheartening that anything that includes coverage for normal doctor's visits (in my case, followups to my previous medical emergency) are out of my price range at this point.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was an education major in college and I now have two teaching-based jobs that end when the school year ends (mid-June). So there is a lot of uncertainty as to what I'll be able to afford just a couple months down the road, even if I can find an affordable insurance program now. It's sort of a sticky situation is all.

And I write this response all about me, and it's true, I do surely often think to myself, "My god, how can it be possible that I can't afford to receive full medical treatment." But just as soon as that thought enters my head, I begin thinking about those a whole lot worse off than myself. My mom comes to mind, a cancer surviver who lost her job and benefits, who now struggles to make house payments with her new low-paying part time job. In her regard, health insurance is out of the question. Then, thinking about her situation only makes me think about people who have it even worse than her. And it just goes on.

Of all those uninsured, I know they all have their own different reasons, some legitimate, some perhaps not. My question always seems to be, for all those reasons, are any of them worthy enough to warrant the inability to receive proper health care and treatment?

[kenuffff]

This stuff is actually much ado about nothing. Don't look at classes, look at quality of life. Deregulation may sacrifice some middle class jobs, but it also provides things much cheaper. So, whether you're making a middle class wage and paying x amount in living expenses vs. making a "low class" wage and paying x - 30% cost of living doesn't really matter.

What it comes down to is how much your country produces. It doesn't matter where the money is concentrated in our country. It matters how much of the worlds market share we take in. Are we selling a lot of stuff? The money in our own country will circulate regardless of the economic system. But to continue moving forward, you have to use that money for investment. National healthcare is gonna take a lot of that investment money, and make basically put it into a fiscally dormant social program.

^"my dad owns a business he told me allt his as he hired illegal workers, and cut the wages of his employees so we could get a beach house"

[GatorKid117]

My parents are both UF alum. You go to school in Gainesville i take it?

Yep I'm in my junior year. I like it down here a lot. I'm hoping I can go to grad school here as well. The workforce can wait :D

[kenuffff]

My parents are both UF alum. You go to school in Gainesville i take it?

"my parents did..." = never did anything on your own two feet in your whole life, let me guess your dad got you the job you have right?

[Tito Beasley]

^"my dad owns a business he told me allt his as he hired illegal workers, and cut the wages of his employees so we could get a beach house"


lol

My dad works in journalism and is a registered independent because he feels that registering democrat or republican would create a conflict of interest. He voted for Barrack Obama.

Kill yourself nerd.

[DeuceWallaces]

"my parents did..." = never did anything on your own two feet in your whole life, let me guess your dad got you the job you have right?

If your dad needs to get you a job selling shoes at Macy's; you've got problems.

[Tito Beasley]

why you so sensitive? and what's with the daddy complex? "u mad" because your pops still hasn't learn english even though it's been 9 years since he crossed the border?

[Tito Beasley]

If your dad needs to get you a job selling shoes at Macy's; you've got problems.

If there's anyone who'd know about dads, it's you. You were raised by two of them! How are they doing anyway? Are they still together?

[TooDeep]

"my parents did..." = never did anything on your own two feet in your whole life, let me guess your dad got you the job you have right?

Shut up you hippie

[Kobe4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOdvn2dtM0A

We have failed to listen to America. And We have failed to reflect the will of our constituents

[kenuffff]

why you so sensitive? and what's with the daddy complex? "u mad" because your pops still hasn't learn english even though it's been 9 years since he crossed the border?

do you seriously sell shoes at macys? i really pray you make over 500k a year to spout this babble

[Tito Beasley]

Shut up you hippie

Joshy your cover is blown. You're a bald midget rockin them pink n green board shorts. You're 30 years old and settled into a career, shouldn't you have a girl by now?

You know, you and deuche actually have a lot in common. You're both odd looking freaks approaching middle age with no significant other. If you two were to hit up San Fransisco or Boston, you might be able to get some kind of certificate of union. I'm not sure exactly where that stuff is in the courts right now but it might be worth a try.

[RedBlackAttack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOdvn2dtM0A

We have failed to listen to America. And We have failed to reflect the will of our constituents
I want to hear what you think and your interpretations of the bill. YouTube links and simply recycling articles from people who are paid to support one side or the other do nothing for me.

One of major problems with this country is that people depend on propaganda machines to write their talking points for them, thus making the need for actual understanding and actual thoughts made on informed opinions obsolete.

Stop posting propaganda and join the discussion (or don't).

[Kobe4life]

I want to hear what you think and your interpretations of the bill. YouTube links and simply recycling articles from people who are paid to support one side or the other do nothing for me.

One of major problems with this country is that people depend on propaganda machines to write their talking points for them, thus making the need for actual understanding and actual thoughts made on informed opinions obsolete.

Stop posting propaganda and join the discussion (or don't).

Now that this bill has passed.Come November,we the people need to vote all these idiots out of office, and start new.Than we need to implement the IMPEACHMENT process for Ovomit. We cannot afford to keep him in Office.Look at the Disaster he has caused in 1 years time.Now, the next on his agenda is to Give amnesty to all Illegals.

[kenuffff]

Shut up you hippie

caught me, except im from the south, have a job, guns, and i have a work ethic, unlike anyone that says anything remotely related to "corporations are what make this country great!"

[TennesseeFan]

Oh shit we're ****ed.

[kenuffff]

Now that this bill has passed.Come November,we the people need to vote all these idiots out of office, and start new.Than we need to implement the IMPEACHMENT process for Ovomit. We cannot afford to keep him in Office.Look at the Disaster he has caused in 1 years time.Now, the next on his agenda is to Give amnesty to all Illegals.

hahahaha. as he posts "kobe4life" if republicans had their way kobe would be sitting at the back of the bus, get a clue.

[RedBlackAttack]

Now that this bill has passed.Come November,we the people need to vote all these idiots out of office, and start new.Than we need to implement the IMPEACHMENT process for Ovomit. We cannot afford to keep him in Office.Look at the Disaster he has caused in 1 years time.Now, the next on his agenda is to Give amnesty to all Illegals.
What do those things have to do with the pros/cons of the bill? It sounds to me as though you have picked a side and you want them to 'win' at any cost.

And, look at the disaster he has caused in one year? Please cite these 'disasters' and give YOUR OWN reasons for why you deem them 'disasters'... Or even bad legislation.

[Tito Beasley]

hahahaha. as he posts "kobe4life" if republicans had their way kobe would be sitting at the back of the bus, get a clue.

kenuffff is making a strong case for being a recipient of this years MIP award.

Most Ignorant Poster.

Another couple posts should lock up the victory. Congrats, kenuffffff.

[TooDeep]

Now that this bill has passed.Come November,we the people need to vote all these idiots out of office, and start new.Than we need to implement the IMPEACHMENT process for Ovomit. We cannot afford to keep him in Office.Look at the Disaster he has caused in 1 years time.Now, the next on his agenda is to Give amnesty to all Illegals.

Thank you, ****in hippies piss me off

http://www.ucar.edu/communications/staffnotes/9812/hippies.gif

homos

[RoTM]

Doesn't matter they can't pay for the unfunded liabilities anyway so this is just a disguised tax bill. Taxing insurance companies, pharma, and medical device companies isn't lowering premiums.

The entire stupid precondition regulation is overblown crap too. An insurance plan is a contract and if you misrepresent terms thats called fraud and it works both ways and they should drop you even if you are sick. Instead were going to have Obama moralism instead of business because communist don't understand free markets are the only way to prevent rationing.

[Tito Beasley]

Thank you, ****in hippies piss me off

http://www.ucar.edu/communications/staffnotes/9812/hippies.gif

homos



http://images.vimeo.com/11/52/94/115294379/115294379_300.jpg

[DeuceWallaces]

If there's anyone who'd know about dads, it's you. You were raised by two of them! How are they doing anyway? Are they still together?

They're doing great, but my step dad and biological father wouldn't do so well living together.

[RealKnowledge]

Can someone please let us know what the main concepts in this bill?

[TooDeep]

Can someone please let us know what the main concepts in this bill?

To make America communist

/thread

[Kobe4life]

They are selling out America so that they can gain control and make an already dependent society even more so (for the most part). It's never been about government or insurance but it has always been about socialism and control. It is insane to think that this bill will actually SAVE us money, are youa fool to really believe that. Weren't we told that the stimulus bill would create all of these thousands of jobs as well...folks wake up they are lying to us!!!!!!!! (Next they'll be telling us what we can and can not eat, drink and everything else).
Whether you be democrat or republican let's take our contry back, it doesn't belong to Washington it belongs to us. What makes this country great is its people not the politicians. Vote these theifs out and let's put representatives in that have our interest at heart. They want lines drawn of color,race, politics, etc. because that hides the real problem.

[RealKnowledge]

I Just got this in a email. Sounds legit. But cant really believe what your told.

"Because of you, every American will finally be guaranteed high quality, affordable health care coverage.

Every American will be covered under the toughest patient protections in history. Arbitrary premium hikes, insurance cancellations, and discrimination against pre-existing conditions will now be gone forever.




And we'll finally start reducing the cost of care -- creating millions of jobs, preventing families and businesses from plunging into bankruptcy, and removing over a trillion dollars of debt from the backs of our children.

But the victory that matters most tonight goes beyond the laws and far past the numbers.

It is the peace of mind enjoyed by every American, no longer one injury or illness away from catastrophe.

It is the workers and entrepreneurs who are now freed to pursue their slice of the American dream without fear of losing coverage or facing a crippling bill.

And it is the immeasurable joy of families in every part of this great nation, living happier, healthier lives together because they can finally receive the vital care they need."

[Kobe4life]

I Just got this in a email. Sounds legit. But cant really believe what your told.

"Because of you, every American will finally be guaranteed high quality, affordable health care coverage.

Every American will be covered under the toughest patient protections in history. Arbitrary premium hikes, insurance cancellations, and discrimination against pre-existing conditions will now be gone forever.




And we'll finally start reducing the cost of care -- creating millions of jobs, preventing families and businesses from plunging into bankruptcy, and removing over a trillion dollars of debt from the backs of our children.

But the victory that matters most tonight goes beyond the laws and far past the numbers.

It is the peace of mind enjoyed by every American, no longer one injury or illness away from catastrophe.

It is the workers and entrepreneurs who are now freed to pursue their slice of the American dream without fear of losing coverage or facing a crippling bill.

And it is the immeasurable joy of families in every part of this great nation, living happier, healthier lives together because they can finally receive the vital care they need."

I'm terrified for the future of our country right now. How can this bill be crammed down our throats with such unethical back-door deals, even though the majority of voters are against it? I expect to see a lot of people get voted out of office over this. Hopefully, those 38 states with pending litigation with be able to block the bill, if only in their own states. Then, I'll make sure I always live in one of those states.

[RedBlackAttack]

They are selling out America so that they can gain control and make an already dependent society even more so (for the most part). It's never been about government or insurance but it has always been about socialism and control. It is insane to think that this bill will actually SAVE us money, are youa fool to really believe that. Weren't we told that the stimulus bill would create all of these thousands of jobs as well...folks wake up they are lying to us!!!!!!!! (Next they'll be telling us what we can and can not eat, drink and everything else).
Whether you be democrat or republican let's take our contry back, it doesn't belong to Washington it belongs to us. What makes this country great is its people not the politicians. Vote these theifs out and let's put representatives in that have our interest at heart. They want lines drawn of color,race, politics, etc. because that hides the real problem.
On second thought, keep posting your propagandist vids/articles. I think I liked those better.

[Kobe4life]

Wow.... Most of these people who are for this healthcare bill seems like they have never taken an Economics class.... Dont people know that this healthcare bill will increase taxes right away? Its going to hurt our economy even more since businesses are barely making it through this recession and now you expect them to survive with a tax increase? Seriously? This bill is going to force businesses to let go of more people and is going to crush "those wealthy, selfish, greedy people" who own businesses.... The same people who provide jobs for US the poor...

[Jello]

hahahaha. as he posts "kobe4life" if republicans had their way kobe would be sitting at the back of the bus, get a clue.
What an idiot...

[RoseCity07]

So without the bill, people with pre-existing conditions can't get insurance. They can't afford medical care, and they die. Emerency room visits by uninsured that can't be paid mean insurers pass the medical expense onto the people already paying insurance. So we are already paying for this bill if you want to get technical.

The whole talking point of the opposers that this bill cost to much is a lousy one. Why don't you guys just stary crying over having to pay taxes. If you don't pay those you go to jail. If you drive without insurance that's illegal.

Why should healthy care be any different. Only difference now is that the burden of the cost is being forced on insurance companies. Why are you defending the billionaires that turn you away to go die if you have a pre existing condition.

People will actually let the propaganda get to them so much that they vote against what is best for them.

[Kobe4life]

On second thought, keep posting your propagandist vids/articles. I think I liked those better.

why dont you be useful for once and just shut up? i think ill like that better. you havent contributed to this thread with anything.well hmmmm. their goes any chance of job recovery by the private sector. i guess we can all become prison guards or irs agents. get ready for wall st reaction not that i really care but get ready for the next great depression, this could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back. everyone i've talked to except for 3 people think this is bad and won't adhere to the mandate and r threating to draw all their money out of the banks, retire early, and to hunker down for some really bad times.

[shadow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOdvn2dtM0A

We have failed to listen to America. And We have failed to reflect the will of our constituents

I don't know about that. A lot of Americans I know support this bill and want Healthcare reform. I get that your side isn't happy about this but realize that there are a lot of us who are, and I think the public opinion is going to swing in favor of this bill anyway once people realize what it does for them, assuming the democrats do not bungle the inevitable media wars.

[Kobe4life]

What do those things have to do with the pros/cons of the bill? It sounds to me as though you have picked a side and you want them to 'win' at any cost.

And, look at the disaster he has caused in one year? Please cite these 'disasters' and give YOUR OWN reasons for why you deem them 'disasters'... Or even bad legislation.


http://i43.tinypic.com/e16u0m.jpg

[DeuceWallaces]

why dont you be useful for once and just shut up? i think ill like that better. you havent contributed to this thread with anything.well hmmmm. their goes any chance of job recovery by the private sector. i guess we can all become prison guards or irs agents. get ready for wall st reaction not that i really care but get ready for the next great depression, this could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back. everyone i've talked to except for 3 people think this is bad and won't adhere to the mandate and r threating to draw all their money out of the banks, retire early, and to hunker down for some really bad times.

We have failed to listen to America? America voted in a guy running on a healthcare reform platform, and then he pushed healthcare reform through. You sound like a broken record, stuck on the wrong track.

[Kobe4life]

We have failed to listen to America? America voted in a guy running on a healthcare reform platform, and then he pushed healthcare reform through. You sound like a broken record, stuck on the wrong track.

Let me see - US healthcare today = 36% insurance funded, 15% private individuals, 45% state and federal government, 4% other. The insurance funded part mainly from employers subsidizing their workers costs and the government agreeing not to tax the benefit (nicely socialistic truly). Meantime 16.4% of GDP or 2-3x the cost paid by other developed nations and yet only average results in terms of healthcare outcomes, on track to be 20+ % GDP in 5 years. An environment where ability to pay not health needs drives access and a moving 10% of the people with no reliable access to treatment. A mythology that what happens here is the best in the world, sustained by stoic ignorance of what happens elsewhere. In a country where we profes to be largely christian, and with one of the highest church attendance rates of any developed country. Last I looked Jesus was essentially a communist - no material possessions, sacrifice self for the greater good, turn the other cheek, look after the children. How did the right vere get to claim to be the mouthpiece of christian values? A crazy world we have made for ourselves.

[RedBlackAttack]

why dont you be useful for once and just shut up? i think ill like that better. you havent contributed to this thread with anything.well hmmmm. their goes any chance of job recovery by the private sector. i guess we can all become prison guards or irs agents. get ready for wall st reaction not that i really care but get ready for the next great depression, this could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back. everyone i've talked to except for 3 people think this is bad and won't adhere to the mandate and r threating to draw all their money out of the banks, retire early, and to hunker down for some really bad times.
You have no argument. You have not discussed a single piece of the bill and I doubt you even know what is in it. All you've done is offer up propaganda and Doomsday scenarios without actually citing what in the legislation will lead to the downfall of America.

And it is comical that you posted a 'cry moar' picture in reference to my post when all you've done in this thread is make it perfectly clear that you are the one that is crying tonight... Not me.

[Kobe4life]

You have no argument. You have not discussed a single piece of the bill and I doubt you even know what is in it. All you've done is offer up propaganda and Doomsday scenarios without actually citing what in the legislation will lead to the downfall of America.

And it is comical that you posted a 'cry moar' picture in reference to my post when all you've done in this thread is make it perfectly clear that you are the one that is crying tonight... Not me.

I love how people think "The end justifies the means". This should not have passed. Our forefathers set up a 3 part government to make sure this didnt happen. It is suppose to be 2/3, not by 1 vote. If it is so great, why did they have to give special deals to almost everyone? We all want reform, but we want bipartisan reform. Transparent(obamas favorite word he does not adhere to) reform. The american people are mad because the system was corrupt, not because they are bad people who dont want others to have healthcare.

[DeuceWallaces]

Let me see - US healthcare today = 36% insurance funded, 15% private individuals, 45% state and federal government, 4% other. The insurance funded part mainly from employers subsidizing their workers costs and the government agreeing not to tax the benefit (nicely socialistic truly). Meantime 16.4% of GDP or 2-3x the cost paid by other developed nations and yet only average results in terms of healthcare outcomes, on track to be 20+ % GDP in 5 years. An environment where ability to pay not health needs drives access and a moving 10% of the people with no reliable access to treatment. A mythology that what happens here is the best in the world, sustained by stoic ignorance of what happens elsewhere. In a country where we profes to be largely christian, and with one of the highest church attendance rates of any developed country. Last I looked Jesus was essentially a communist - no material possessions, sacrifice self for the greater good, turn the other cheek, look after the children. How did the right vere get to claim to be the mouthpiece of christian values? A crazy world we have made for ourselves.

You didn't respond to my post, nor did you say a damn thing.

[Kobe4life]

This bill is not about assuring that everyone has access to healthcare. This bill is about power of the government and control of the people. The passage of this bill will cause doctors to leave medicine in droves. Also very few young people will chose medicine as a career in the future. Only stupid people will go into medicine. This is the "dumming down" of medical care in this country. This will also make it more difficult for the poor, the sick, the mentally challenged and the elderly to get medical care- consequently these groups of people will die off. This is what the government really wants. This is social engineering at it's most fiendish ( reminds me of Hitler). Can I get an Amen !

[DeuceWallaces]

This bill is not about assuring that everyone has access to healthcare. This bill is about power of the government and control of the people. The passage of this bill will cause doctors to leave medicine in droves. Also very few young people will chose medicine as a career in the future. Only stupid people will go into medicine. This is the "dumming down" of medical care in this country. This will also make it more difficult for the poor, the sick, the mentally challenged and the elderly to get medical care- consequently these groups of people will die off. This is what the government really wants. This is social engineering at it's most fiendish ( reminds me of Hitler). Can I get an Amen !

Not a single doctor will leave practicing medicine based on this, or any other bill.

[RedBlackAttack]

This bill is not about assuring that everyone has access to healthcare. This bill is about power of the government and control of the people. The passage of this bill will cause doctors to leave medicine in droves. Also very few young people will chose medicine as a career in the future. Only stupid people will go into medicine. This is the "dumming down" of medical care in this country. This will also make it more difficult for the poor, the sick, the mentally challenged and the elderly to get medical care- consequently these groups of people will die off. This is what the government really wants. This is social engineering at it's most fiendish ( reminds me of Hitler). Can I get an Amen !
I know one thing... When I think of Hitler, I think of healthcare reform. Good point. :cheers:

[RoTM]

It is tough to buy things, even when they are cheaper, when you can't find a job because the American corporations have deemed it more cost efficient to put Americans out of work and to send those jobs to countries that don't have unions, have no restrictions on working conditions and can even institute child labor.

And, it does matter how things are produced. The way that the middle class is sustained is by American corporations giving jobs to those that are willing to work for a decent wage. The money is coming in regardless. They can choose to be more cost effective and send jobs out of the country which will make them richer and give the potential workers less opportunities or to support the American worker and re-circulate a relatively small portion of that vast income to their countrymen. With our current structure, much less money is sent overseas to employ people who will do things much cheaper... The kind of wages that panhandlers far exceed in America.

The gap between rich and poor grows every year in this country, so obviously it DOES matter how that production is conducted and how that money coming in is circulated.

The richest 1 percent now earn more than the bottom 80 percent in America. That is a broken system. There are a lot of positives to a capitalistic society, but it can also be dangerous when all of the money is going to a tiny aristocratic class at the top of the pecking order. That is the situation we are facing.

You do realize that if I sell you a pair you Chinese sneakers for 5 bucks then you have new shoes and I got ripped off right? Goods and labor are wealth and wealth that isn't consumed on one thing can be used somewhere else. You want to demonize trade when people are willing to sell you things practically for free. Then you complain that its making you poorer. Adam Smith figured this out the first time back when kings were using protectionist trade policies in the dark ages.

Heres a solution someone offers you shoes for 5 bucks. A Fed arrests him and you have to buy morally clean american guild made sneakers for 100 bucks while a chinese peasant child starves because child labor should be illegal instead of letting them work to feed themselves. We could also regulate everything then everyone could have a job in a USSA widget factory.

[RoseCity07]

I'd respect republicans more if they just came out and said the truth. That they don't want poor people to have health insurance. That they think the rich deserve to have everything, and the poor need to just shut up. That they don't believe that everyone should be taken care of because it's what a communist believes.

But no. They argue in circles that it's really about something else. That is really to protect us from ourselves. Like I said earlier. It's like you are sitting their playing cards, and a guy looks over your shoulder at your hand constantly telling you if you do this or that you will lose. Just go away, you are not helping.

Socialism and communism, just more fear mongering language. We get it, you think that the doctors and corporations should be able make billions and give nothing back. We understand that you think driving a Mercendes is more important than a kid with cancer getting turn away from medical insurance because of a pre existing condition.

What I have to say to your beliefs is that they are morally wrong. They are not what you would want if the tables were turned. So just your mouths, no one cares.

[Kobe4life]

Not a single doctor will leave practicing medicine based on this, or any other bill.

what makes you think so? give me your explanation

[Kobe4life]

What good does forcing the U.S. citizens to accept more government control and regulation of our lives when so many of us cannot afford the basic necessities of life. Any medical professional worth his or her salt will tell you that food and shelter are the first requirements of health. Give us jobs and let us buy our own band aids!

[DeuceWallaces]

what makes you think so? give me your explanation

Give me yours; you're the one making baseless claims. You think someone is gonna throw away 8 years of schooling and god knows how much of their professional experience over this bill? What are they gonna do after they walk away from the only profession they know? That's asinine.

[RoseCity07]

What good does forcing the U.S. citizens to accept more government control and regulation of our lives when so many of us cannot afford the basic necessities of life. Any medical professional worth his or her salt will tell you that food and shelter are the first requirements of health. Give us jobs and let us buy our own band aids!

Ok, that is where you lose me. Government gets a profit, the money doesn't go to a CEO and his board of directors. We can't have a handful of people having a monopoly on health care.

I'd rather have the government voting on regulations to make healthy care better. What good can having someone who's soul purpose is to turn a profit, deciding my insurance rates? Making sure I can't get insurance, or have to pay more money because I'm sick. That is ass backwards. If I get sick I can't get health insurance?

[RedBlackAttack]

You do realize that if I sell you a pair you Chinese sneakers for 5 bucks then you have new shoes and I got ripped off right? Goods and labor are wealth and wealth that isn't consumed on one thing can be used somewhere else. You want to demonize trade when people are willing to sell you things practically for free. Then you complain that its making you poorer. Adam Smith figured this out the first time back when kings were using protectionist trade policies in the dark ages.

Heres a solution someone offers you shoes for 5 bucks. A Fed arrests him and you have to buy morally clean american guild made sneakers for 100 bucks while a chinese peasant child starves because child labor should be illegal instead of letting them work to feed themselves. We could also regulate everything then everyone could have a job in a USSA widget factory.
I guess that we were living in a communist country prior to the free trade agreements that lifted caps on imported goods, eh?

In 1979, 80 percent of garments bought in the United States were American Made. In 1989, that number dropped to 70 percent. In 1999, that number was down to 20 percent. Now, it is below 10 percent.

The garment and textile industry used to be the No. 1 employer of American workers. That is a lot of jobs that are now taken by sweatshops in South America and Asia.

That is a direct result of the lifting of the caps (ie: deregulation) and it is also a main contributor on the gap between rich and poor in the United States growing exponentially over the last 20 years (that isn't debatable).

Those jobs are gone and they have not been replaced. But, hey... At least we can go to Wal-Mart and get a t-shirt for $5 (while many of the employees at those particular establishments still qualify for welfare).

But, yeah... Things are great in today's America thanks to deregulation and the breaking of the unions.

[DeuceWallaces]

I guess Kobe4life can't answer the tough questions and had to log off.

[RoTM]

So without the bill, people with pre-existing conditions can't get insurance. They can't afford medical care, and they die. Emerency room visits by uninsured that can't be paid mean insurers pass the medical expense onto the people already paying insurance. So we are already paying for this bill if you want to get technical.

The whole talking point of the opposers that this bill cost to much is a lousy one. Why don't you guys just stary crying over having to pay taxes. If you don't pay those you go to jail. If you drive without insurance that's illegal.

Why should healthy care be any different. Only difference now is that the burden of the cost is being forced on insurance companies. Why are you defending the billionaires that turn you away to go die if you have a pre existing condition.

People will actually let the propaganda get to them so much that they vote against what is best for them.

The market does offer insurance to people with preconditions at a higher rate because they are higher risk obviously. They drop people who they suspect defrauded them by not revealing their preconditions which will now be illegal. Hospitals that provide emergency care to uninsured people pay for those expenses themselves not insurance companies.

Healthcare is so expensive because its one of the mosts regulated markets in the country. The government prevents people from practicing medicine in any form unless they are part of the medical guild. The requirements are of course outrages since you need what, 10+ years of school that cost like 400 grand? I can't get a prescription for antibiotics for an ear infection unless I see a doctor. A nurse cant give it to me by law. Obviously there aren't enough doctors to see everyone whenever they want so the prices are high because healthcare has to be rationed.

BTW I actually do complain about paying taxes since I'm forced too and don't have the option to provide for myself instead of paying for low quality expensive government services. Half of them don't even work or I don't use them yet the gov reserves the right to kill me over it if I resist enough.

As for auto insurance thats actually unconstitutional imo. The constitution prevents the government from making laws that prevents the free movement of citizens. At the time it was written the standard method of travel was horse and cart which wasn't regulated. Now obviously things have changed and most people get around in a car yet the right of people to travel in this way unhindered was never recognized by the law. They call it fricking privilege to drive like I'm supposed to walk from state to state.

[Go Getter]

Most people don't know what the Bill entails really they are just following the rally monkeys of the dems and the GOP.

I used to be a staunch Democrat because I believed that is what I was supposed to be seeing as though I come from a working class family in middle america and I'm African American.

These days I'm not so sure. More and more I'm starting to believe that the gov't is playing us and no matter what 'side' is in power the will of corporate America is what really drives our country.

Until we put a crooked politician's head on a stick and make him/her an example we will continue to be fleeced and lied to by our politicians.

[RoTM]

I guess that we were living in a communist country prior to the free trade agreements that lifted caps on imported goods, eh?

In 1979, 80 percent of garments bought in the United States were American Made. In 1989, that number dropped to 70 percent. In 1999, that number was down to 20 percent. Now, it is below 10 percent.

The garment and textile industry used to be the No. 1 employer of American workers. That is a lot of jobs that are now taken by sweatshops in South America and Asia.

That is a direct result of the lifting of the caps (ie: deregulation) and it is also a main contributor on the gap between rich and poor in the United States growing exponentially over the last 20 years (that isn't debatable).

Those jobs are gone and they have not been replaced. But, hey... At least we can go to Wal-Mart and get a t-shirt for $5 (while many of the employees at those particular establishments still qualify for welfare).

But, yeah... Things are great in today's America thanks to deregulation and the breaking of the unions.

Whats this rinse and repeat? So what the garment industry is gone from America because other countries can do it cheaper. Blame Americans for having free choice about where they want to shop because its not greed that causes industries to outsource its competition.

If Joe Bobs Sweater Depo next door moves to Mexico and imports crap for cheaper I'm going out of business, sorry supply and demand. Maybe you should think about what you are going to advocate for. The use of force to stop people from voluntary transactions. I can find my own job and I don't need the G-Men regulating my wardrobe.

[Kobe4life]

I guess Kobe4life can't answer the tough questions and had to log off.

you still havent answered my question? quit talking about something you have no clue about.

[Kobe4life]

Give me yours; you're the one making baseless claims. You think someone is gonna throw away 8 years of schooling and god knows how much of their professional experience over this bill? What are they gonna do after they walk away from the only profession they know? That's asinine.

how did i know you were gonna come up with the "give me yours" excuse? your question is hilarious. if you earn no money you move on to other jobs. get a job and you'll know what i mean. theres no need to feed information to you. you probably need a dictionary to understand my posts

[rufuspaul]

I've been working at Macy's, I took a leave of absence for the time being to focus on a career in entertainment, and will return during the holidays if I decide to.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Funniest thing I've read in a long, long time. Oh God please make it stop!

[Big_Dogg]

This is both the funniest and saddest thread I have ever read.

The old propaganda of Communism Vs Capitalism, the great debate of America, only dwarfed by the Repulican Vs Democrat debate. :oldlol:

In this thread I have seen the good and bad sides of both arguments and I'm astounded by the negativity, considering you are worried about spending money on your fellow countrymen in their times of need, and not all are in need I will concede but alot of the health system in the USA is not right, and most can see that but when someone tries to change it for what seems to be for the better, it is described as being the first step to communism.

What cracks me up is, you complain about paying more taxes and blah blah blah, yet so many pay so much already in support for a war that doesn't need to continue wasting billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars, but you would rather do that than take care of your own citizens, I just can't believe how people of the same nation can think so differently on what is meant to be beneficial to the nation as a whole.

As I'm not from the USA and don't have an understanding of people's views on the pro's and con's and internal politics, if someone could kindly (hopefully without flaming) explain in simple terms why this is such a bad thing.

Just for the record, I live in Australia which has something similar to what Obama has proposed (in principal) and we have a system of nationalised health care and private health care as well working in harmony, so I would love to hear both sides of the arguement.

[RoseCity07]

The market does offer insurance to people with preconditions at a higher rate because they are higher risk obviously. They drop people who they suspect defrauded them by not revealing their preconditions which will now be illegal. Hospitals that provide emergency care to uninsured people pay for those expenses themselves not insurance companies.

Healthcare is so expensive because its one of the mosts regulated markets in the country. The government prevents people from practicing medicine in any form unless they are part of the medical guild. The requirements are of course outrages since you need what, 10+ years of school that cost like 400 grand? I can't get a prescription for antibiotics for an ear infection unless I see a doctor. A nurse cant give it to me by law. Obviously there aren't enough doctors to see everyone whenever they want so the prices are high because healthcare has to be rationed.

BTW I actually do complain about paying taxes since I'm forced too and don't have the option to provide for myself instead of paying for low quality expensive government services. Half of them don't even work or I don't use them yet the gov reserves the right to kill me over it if I resist enough.

As for auto insurance thats actually unconstitutional imo. The constitution prevents the government from making laws that prevents the free movement of citizens. At the time it was written the standard method of travel was horse and cart which wasn't regulated. Now obviously things have changed and most people get around in a car yet the right of people to travel in this way unhindered was never recognized by the law. They call it fricking privilege to drive like I'm supposed to walk from state to state.

Well at least you admit your fundamental differences. I've never heard of someone actually getting insurance with a per existing condition. If they could like you say, get the insurance at a higher rate then I'm sure it's unaffordable. No insurance is going to let you buy insurance for a little bit more money so you can get out of a surgery that cost over 100,000 dollars. These people aren't stupid.

Hey, I don't like paying taxes or car insurance either, but they are the law, and important. If I run into you and you don't have insurance, you probably can't afford a new car or the repairs. If you are some rich guy, I got news for you, most people can't.

People driving without insurance is pretty surious. It cost the person 10 times more to get in an accident without insurance, than if they just got it in the first place.

[RedBlackAttack]

Whats this rinse and repeat? So what the garment industry is gone from America because other countries can do it cheaper. Blame Americans for having free choice about where they want to shop because its not greed that causes industries to outsource its competition.

If Joe Bobs Sweater Depo next door moves to Mexico and imports crap for cheaper I'm going out of business, sorry supply and demand. Maybe you should think about what you are going to advocate for. The use of force to stop people from voluntary transactions. I can find my own job and I don't need the G-Men regulating my wardrobe.
So... We should repeal child labor laws, do away with the minimum wage, do away with every environmental reform, and almost every other human right that is afforded to every citizen in this country so that we can compete with China's virtual slave workforce? Would that make for a better America, in your opinion, because that is the only way that we are going to compete with them in terms of cost/revenue production.

Also, I'd like to hear why you think the gap between rich and poor has grown exponentially in the last 30 years.

[ElPigto]

I'm pretty happy about this. About 5 weeks ago I dislocated my clavicle and I had to get surgery in order to put it back in place. In less than 1 night I accumulated a 40k+ bill from the hospital. It sucks being without insurance. I can't afford my school insurance and since my grandma and uncle (who raised me) are disabled they don't have any insurance for me to be covered.

Thankfully I'm close to graduating college and I'll pay the hospital back it's money, but it sucks that people like me do not have access to health insurance just because I'm poor. I can't imagine people that are in my shoes and some that are much much worse off, it really does suck. I'm glad Obama kept his promise about this because this was a huge reason I voted for him.

[RoTM]

So... We should repeal child labor laws, do away with the minimum wage, do away with every environmental reform, and almost every other human right that is afforded to every citizen in this country so that we can compete with China's virtual slave workforce? Would that make for a better America, in your opinion, because that is the only way that we are going to compete with them in terms of cost/revenue production.

Also, I'd like to hear why you think the gap between rich and poor has grown exponentially in the last 30 years.

If the Chinese want to be your slave then why are complaining about it. You going to send me away if I want to wash your car for free too? Also yes I do want to axe minimum wage and child labor. I don't see why children should starve when they could have the option to work if they aren't forced. As for minimum wage the only thing that garbage does is cause every single job that would exist that paid less then minimum wage to be gone. Where do you think those jobs are going?

Rich poor gap follows the federal debt. Go figure.

[RoTM]

Well at least you admit your fundamental differences. I've never heard of someone actually getting insurance with a per existing condition. If they could like you say, get the insurance at a higher rate then I'm sure it's unaffordable. No insurance is going to let you buy insurance for a little bit more money so you can get out of a surgery that cost over 100,000 dollars. These people aren't stupid.

Hey, I don't like paying taxes or car insurance either, but they are the law, and important. If I run into you and you don't have insurance, you probably can't afford a new car or the repairs. If you are some rich guy, I got news for you, most people can't.

People driving without insurance is pretty surious. It cost the person 10 times more to get in an accident without insurance, than if they just got it in the first place.

Pre-existing conditions don't mean you break your arm and then try and sign a plan before you go to the hospital. Its like if I had a heart attack a few years ago then they would insure me, but charge more since I am a greater risk. The law as far as I know doesn't prevent them from refusing to insure you only it keeps them from dropping you if they think you lied about something.

My problem with auto insurance is that its mandated. If you hit me and I'm not insured I can sue you for damages. They say the mandate protects me you being broke, but why is this different then if you just assaulted me, or hurt me or damaged my property in other ways. I wouldn't be protected then.

[RedBlackAttack]

If the Chinese want to be your slave then why are complaining about it. You going to send me away if I want to wash your car for free too?
If someone offered to wash my car, I would pay them what I deemed a fair wage. I don't need my car washed for free and I have plenty of money to pay accordingly for said service. To be completely honest, I would feel like a scumbag if someone washed my car and I allowed them to walk away without being compensated for their work.


Also yes I do want to axe minimum wage and child labor. I don't see why children should starve when they could have the option to work if they aren't forced. As for minimum wage the only thing that garbage does is cause every single job that would exist that paid less then minimum wage to be gone. Where do you think those jobs are going?
We just come from two completely different places, here, so there is no sense in continuing this portion of the debate.


Rich poor gap follows the federal debt. Go figure.
Actually, the national debt fell during the Clinton Administration and the gap between rich and poor continued to widen.

[RoTM]

Clinton didn't stop deficit spending. He stalled the debt percentage of gdp for a few years during a boom. Why would the gap decrease then when we were still inflating.

And the car thing was rhetorical. Paying undermarket for any good from a foreign country is good, but people don't think playstations and pants are valuable because were not talking about gold or cash. Americans are aclimated to a certain minimum lifestyle so they expect those things.

[kentatm]

This does nothing. Seriously, the people without insurance are the people who havent TRIED to get insurance. They don't care. They're not living a productive existence. We're just burdening America so Obama can feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain to black people who voted for him.

this is complete horseshit and to say something so mind numbingly stupid proves you are nothing but a partisan prick with no grasp of reality.

[Button]

:oldlol:

Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Slovenia, Slovakia, and Greece say hello

getting better here, but still shaky yes

[sixerfan82]

HOnestly, there needs to be some land somewhere that a new country can be started.

America is going to look like a shithole in 20 years because liberals are such cowards that they refuse to ask anyone to be accountable for themselves, and just swindle money from anyone making it in order to babysit the little guy. this is just so embarrassing.

You're free to leave USA and start the country yourself anytime you wish bud.

[TheGreatDeraj]

How about we just tax the fat ****ing idiots who are too stupid to stay healthy in literally the most advanced time in history. But hey lets continue to let diabetes and obesity spiral out of control by paying for the people to make the same mistakes that got us into this mess? How is that fixing the problem?

Healthcare reform needs to be done, but in smaller steps, lets first spend money trying to reduce WHY people are getting fat rather than just through free healthcare for morons.

I smoke, drink, eat unhealthy foods, and sit on my ass using my welfare check why am I unhealthy and need others to pay for me?

[IcanzIIravor]

If the Chinese want to be your slave then why are complaining about it. You going to send me away if I want to wash your car for free too? Also yes I do want to axe minimum wage and child labor. I don't see why children should starve when they could have the option to work if they aren't forced. As for minimum wage the only thing that garbage does is cause every single job that would exist that paid less then minimum wage to be gone. Where do you think those jobs are going?

Rich poor gap follows the federal debt. Go figure.

Sounds like you want a return to the Gilded Age/Robber Baron days.

[IcanzIIravor]

How about we just tax the fat ****ing idiots who are too stupid to stay healthy in literally the most advanced time in history. But hey lets continue to let diabetes and obesity spiral out of control by paying for the people to make the same mistakes that got us into this mess? How is that fixing the problem?

Healthcare reform needs to be done, but in smaller steps, lets first spend money trying to reduce WHY people are getting fat rather than just through free healthcare for morons.

I smoke, drink, eat unhealthy foods, and sit on my ass using my welfare check why am I unhealthy and need others to pay for me?

What you're talking about is just a fraction of the issue.

[dough]

:oldlol:

Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Slovenia, Slovakia, and Greece say hello

So which method did you use to group those countries exactly, lol?

[bada bing]

The only people this helps are the people who aren't doing anything for society. Essentially communities that have exploding out-of-wedlock birth rates, low education rates, AWFUL parenting, poor diet etc. etc.

This is all going to be paid for by responsible Americans and the burden is going to be massive. That is extremely unfair.

But ideological liberal loony toons will celebrate because of how great it sounds "in theory" and of course don't actually CARE what the consequences of its practical application are.

Liberals just look at the ends and completely disregard the impact of the means. If it sounds like it makes sense in a perfect fairy world, it is the liberal's cup of tea.

****ign pathetic.

whats up with this selfishness exhibited by so many in this country? There are people dying yet the only thing we tend to care is our own selves. We are killing so many people around the world with our wars and global policies, we have uninsured americans that eventually die because they do not have insurance so do not check up on themselves yet we care about ourselves. If you worked hard and are doing really good why not use what you have to make your country and those around you better? Is this really too much to freaking ask? Its just humanity. Get over your selfish pride cuz that will be the downfall of this country.

[GatorKid117]

If anyone wanted a quick rundown of what the Bill entails, here's the best link I found:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/bgemw/so_healthcare_has_passed_can_someone/

[dough]

Make sure you heading to eastern europe it would suck to be in one of those european hellholes like norway sweden germany or France with their public health care systems and super-oppressive stalinist type governments that want to take your hard earned money and give it to a bunch of brats who can't even afford their healthcare. if the atlantic weren't so big we'd have seen a lot of them in makeshift boats trying to make it over. If there's one good thing about the rise of this hitleresque policy is we won't ever have to worry about them trying to illegally immigrate here because our country will soon be just as bad.

Sweden, Norway, Germany, hellholes? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheGreatDeraj]

What you're talking about is just a fraction of the issue.

10% of the issue according to MSNBX

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32170526/


RTI health economist Eric Finkelstein offers a blunt message for lawmakers trying to revamp the health care system: "Unless you address obesity, you're never going to address rising health care costs."

[Heilige]

Why, in any other industry where government manages things less, instead of more, we see costs go down and quality increase? Why do people think that healthcare somehow works differently?

Why do people ignore that the government involvement has had a huge impact on rising healthcare costs over the the past several decades?

It is going to be a failure, just like the past decades of Government healthcare in the US has been. How are people stupid enough to think that if government healthcare has produced what we have now -- and they dont like it -- that even MORE government healthcare is going to change things for the better?

As Albert Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.


The American Experience With Managed Care (HMOs), and its impact.
http://debate-central.ncpa.org/topics/2002/book1.pdf

A paper documenting some of the ways in which government has caused health insurance to rise
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2007-winter/moral-vs-universal-health-care.asp

An ebook debunking with facts, many of the myths about countries with national health insurance
http://debate-central.ncpa.org/topics/2002/book2.pdf


Rising Malpractice Costs
http://mises.org/daily/3753
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03702.pdf


Understanding the costs of healthcare
http://mises.org/daily/3708

Socialized Healthcare vs The Laws of Economics
http://mises.org/daily/3586





Some years ago, the Nobel-laureate economist Milton Friedman studied the history of healthcare supply in America. In a 1992 study published by the Hoover Institution, entitled "Input and Output in Health Care," Friedman noted that 56 percent of all hospitals in America were privately owned and for-profit in 1910. After 60 years of subsidies for government-run hospitals, the number had fallen to about 10 percent. It took decades, but by the early 1990s government had taken over almost the entire hospital industry. That small portion of the industry that remains for-profit is regulated in an extraordinarily heavy way by federal, state and local governments so that many (perhaps most) of the decisions made by hospital administrators have to do with regulatory compliance as opposed to patient/customer service in pursuit of profit. It is profit, of course, that is necessary for private-sector hospitals to have the wherewithal to pay for healthcare.

Friedman's key conclusion was that, as with all governmental bureaucratic systems, government-owned or -controlled healthcare created a situation whereby increased "inputs," such as expenditures on equipment, infrastructure, and the salaries of medical professionals, actually led to decreased "outputs" in terms of the quantity of medical care. For example, while medical expenditures rose by 224 percent from 1965–1989, the number of hospital beds per 1,000 population fell by 44 percent and the number of beds occupied declined by 15 percent. Also during this time of almost complete governmental domination of the hospital industry (1944–1989), costs per patient-day rose almost 24-fold after inflation is taken into account.

The more money that has been spent on government-run healthcare, the less healthcare we have gotten. This kind of result is generally true of all government bureaucracies because of the absence of any market feedback mechanism. Since there are no profits in an accounting sense, by definition, in government, there is no mechanism for rewarding good performance and penalizing bad performance. In fact, in all government enterprises, exactly the opposite is true: bad performance (failure to achieve ostensible goals, or satisfy "customers") is typically rewarded with larger budgets. Failure to educate children leads to more money for government schools. Failure to reduce poverty leads to larger budgets for welfare state bureaucracies. This is guaranteed to happen with healthcare socialism as well.

An index for various articles on the topic
http://mises.org/daily/3737

Rebutting the Myths of National Health Insurance(28 pages)
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa532.pdf


Paying More, Getting Less (30+pages)
Ontario’s Health Premium andSustainable Health Care
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/PayingMoreGettingLess2004.pdf


The Case for capitalist healthcare
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/files/PDFs/students_learning/CaseforCapitalistHealthcare.pdf

[Heilige]

I'd respect republicans more if they just came out and said the truth. That they don't want poor people to have health insurance. That they think the rich deserve to have everything, and the poor need to just shut up. That they don't believe that everyone should be taken care of because it's what a communist believes.

But no. They argue in circles that it's really about something else. That is really to protect us from ourselves. Like I said earlier. It's like you are sitting their playing cards, and a guy looks over your shoulder at your hand constantly telling you if you do this or that you will lose. Just go away, you are not helping.

Socialism and communism, just more fear mongering language. We get it, you think that the doctors and corporations should be able make billions and give nothing back. We understand that you think driving a Mercendes is more important than a kid with cancer getting turn away from medical insurance because of a pre existing condition.

What I have to say to your beliefs is that they are morally wrong. They are not what you would want if the tables were turned. So just your mouths, no one cares.



When people like you say "we need government or else poor people will not be helped", it simply shows your stunning stupidity.

If enough people in society do not want something to happen, it's not going to happen. Are people really stupid enough to think that America is so selfish..... that's why we have a house full of politicians who want to enact these government programs...... and a nation full of people who want the programs to happen? The stupidity is mind boggling. Things don't happen.... in the free market... or in government.... unless enough people want it to be so. The free market or big government politicians are just two different ways of implementing that.

I.e. for the stupid people to be able to understand it better:

If there are enough people who want "healthcare" in the first place, this already disproves one of the primary reasons for wanting it, aka "we have to help people, cant leave them to the greedy free market". In other words, the very fact that they are sitting there in favor of it disproves one of their primary original propositions. It's the ultimate irony and stupidity.

Just from the people in this thread alone who think that its a choice between:

a.) Free markets -- people who need, and deserve help, dont get helped
b.) Government programs -- people get helped.

No, actually, it's a choice between

a.) Move towards decentralization and freer markets: costs go down, quality goes up, costs of big government go down = more wealth, more people get helped, AND those people get helped far more effectively, and at a more personalized (local, decentralized) level.

b.) Increase big government. Most wealth is drained from the economy. Costs continue to go up, as they have over the past decades since government became increasingly involved, quality probably decreases, people do NOT get helped, because the country is near bankrupt, and can't afford wasteful government programs, where $3 are spent to provide $1 worth of health services.


No, it's not a choice between

a.) Personal responsibility and individual liberty
b.) Society helping people.

As explained in the post above, the stupidity behind this reasoning is mind boggling.

It's actually a choice between


Pre-condition: Enough people in society want to help others to do something about it. What route to choose? A, or B from the question further above.

If this precondition doesnt exist, obviously the second part of the question is moot. Hence the mind-boggling stupidity of people who think there is a dichotomy.


Omg, omg, which one to choose? :rolleyes:

The stupidity of these people couldnt fit inside Homer Simpson.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Regardless this is a rushed bill that was not fully thought out and evaluated by people who know what the hell they are talking about. Is everyone who voted on this bill an expert about the economy and the healthcare industry?

Absolutely not. They are politicians. For some unknown reason in this republic we voted for representatives that aren't experts on ANY TOPIC WE ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT other than being a politician, saying the right things and manipulating others to do what's best for them.

We decided that any CHANGE is better than IMPROVEMENT. *cough Obama cough*

gotta blame Bush and others for messing everything up soooooooo bad that people would rather HOPE that some CHANGE will make it better than it is now instead of evaluating the situation like rational human beings and finding a solution.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014
State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.
Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.
Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.
Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

2014 sounds like the worst year

[bada bing]

Regardless this is a rushed bill that was not fully thought out and evaluated by people who know what the hell they are talking about. Is everyone who voted on this bill an expert about the economy and the healthcare industry?

Absolutely not. They are politicians. For some unknown reason in this republic we voted for representatives that aren't experts on ANY TOPIC WE ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT other than being a politician, saying the right things and manipulating others to do what's best for them.

We decided that any CHANGE is better than IMPROVEMENT. *cough Obama cough*

gotta blame Bush and others for messing everything up soooooooo bad that people would rather HOPE that some CHANGE will make it better than it is now instead of evaluating the situation like rational human beings and finding a solution.



2014 sounds like the worst year

agreed. The biggest problem with politics right now is that it has become a career. It is never suppose to be a career. Politicians are suppose to be everyday people who are suppose to represent their people and not the special interests. This is seen with both parties. Main reason these republicans are opposing is because of the insurance company heavy weights. American politics is never about the people.

[boozehound]

Dude honestly, I'm not against what amounts to a nation-wide insurance pool, IF the social responsibility in the country is relatively evenly spread.

That's just NOT the case in America. There is a lot of weight at the bottom that isn't even TRYING to help itself. And liberals want responsible Americans to basically strap them on our backs and carry them. Why? Because they're AFRAID to tell other communities to get their act together. They gotta walk on those PC eggshells. This is unbelievably pathetic.

These liberal hippies dont really understand how much of the lifestyle they enjoy is dependent on the work that business people and corporations do. They think money is just free and that the more that share it, the merrier, regardless of who's pulling weight and who's not.
so, does this numbnuts not realize that the loafers/welfare queens and people with no visible income already qualify for govt provided healthcare? Its actually a lot of small business owners and workers and low income workers (who do provide an important aspect of our economy) who dont have the coverage.

[boozehound]

Why, in any other industry where government manages things less, instead of more, we see costs go down and quality increase? Why do people think that healthcare somehow works differently?

have you been under a rock for the last 2 years? The sub-prime fiasco, bank trading, etc was all the result of de-regulation or poor enforcement of regulation.

[RoTM]

have you been under a rock for the last 2 years? The sub-prime fiasco, bank trading, etc was all the result of de-regulation or poor enforcement of regulation.

Myth. Sub-prime lending was mandated, and the hedging is due to controlled interest rates.

[crisoner]

whats up with this selfishness exhibited by so many in this country? There are people dying yet the only thing we tend to care is our own selves. We are killing so many people around the world with our wars and global policies, we have uninsured americans that eventually die because they do not have insurance so do not check up on themselves yet we care about ourselves. If you worked hard and are doing really good why not use what you have to make your country and those around you better? Is this really too much to freaking ask? Its just humanity. Get over your selfish pride cuz that will be the downfall of this country.


People like Tito are idiots and blinded by the BS the GOP shoves down their throats. I think he thinks his freedoms are being taking away blah blah blah and that Obama was not born in the US because Hawaii is not really a state.

I mean...did you see that video with that man with Parkinson at the Tea Bagger protest? They started throwing money at him screaming and yelling here is your hand out!!!! WTF?
And then what kills me is that these same people claim to be good Christians etc. and they are screaming about helping the poor and people who can not help themselves? I mean really do they read the Bible and life of Jesus Christ? I'm not much of a religious freak but even I know it was Jesus's MO to do just that.
But that's getting a lil off topic..straight up other developed countries around the world have great health care systems that are government sponsored and are doing great. But not in the US because the GOP and insurance companies they support make $$$ on a proven failed system.

[Alhazred]

Dude how many people do you know with a medical condition that precludes them from getting insurance? Versus essentially the population of every major inner-city combined. Come on.

It happens more often than you think, and some insurance companies can be very sleazy about it, like signing people to plans and then canceling it due to some of the most ridiculous things, like a previous case of acne.

http://baselinescenario.com/2009/07/27/health-insurance-innovation/

Also, do you even pay your own rent? Who are you to accuse people of being unproductive and overly dependent?

[Hawker]

What I think is ridiculous is that you're fined if you don't want to buy insurance...whatever happened to freedom of choice. Whether or not you want insurance affects only you, not anybody else.

This bill is just more government control and more spending. Same old, same old.

Can't believe people actually trust the government more than corporations. Not saying corporations are honest all the time but the government really isn't any better. I'd take corporations any day of the week because if it sucks, you can go elsewhere. Not the same with the government.

[step_back]

I feel very blessed right now knowing that I can smoke and drink as much as I like and some rich republican has my back.

[Alhazred]

What I think is ridiculous is that you're fined if you don't want to buy insurance...whatever happened to freedom of choice. Whether or not you want insurance affects only you, not anybody else.

I actually agree with you on that, I wish they would remove it from the bill.

[AtomSmasher]

just for clarification's sake - if one can afford top level health care can he/she still get it?

[InspiredLebowski]

As far as being mandated to buy it, which is some bullshit, isn't the theory that with the new premium regulations they need new, healthy, customers to keep the profit margins in line?

[RedBlackAttack]

just for clarification's sake - if one can afford top level health care can he/she still get it?
Yes.

[D.J.]

What I think is ridiculous is that you're fined if you don't want to buy insurance...whatever happened to freedom of choice. Whether or not you want insurance affects only you, not anybody else.
This bill is just more government control and more spending. Same old, same old.

Can't believe people actually trust the government more than corporations. Not saying corporations are honest all the time but the government really isn't any better. I'd take corporations any day of the week because if it sucks, you can go elsewhere. Not the same with the government.


In theory, I agree. In reality, couldn't disagree more. Premiums have been going sky high because more people have health problems. Obesity is a huge problem(I believe 2/3 are overweight to some extent) and there are many more cases of diabetes, heart problems, and other health problems. In theory, I should have the right to decide whether to buy it or not. It is freedom of choice. In reality, many people's decisions are raising the rates for everyone.

[InfiniteBaskets]

What I think is ridiculous is that you're fined if you don't want to buy insurance...whatever happened to freedom of choice. Whether or not you want insurance affects only you, not anybody else.

This bill is just more government control and more spending. Same old, same old.

Can't believe people actually trust the government more than corporations. Not saying corporations are honest all the time but the government really isn't any better. I'd take corporations any day of the week because if it sucks, you can go elsewhere. Not the same with the government.

That's what the motto that should govern in an ideal world in my opinion. However, it's due to the fact that hospitals don't have the freedom of choice to take in selective people and thus are forced to take anyone who needs help.

In fact, the vast majority of hospitals in the US are running in the red. Let's take a look at the insurance companies in the US and see if that case is still the same? Unfortunately you can't punish the insurance companies by forcing them to lower premiums and taking on less than desired insurables. So the people get punished instead by being taxed if you're rich and forced to buy insurance.

[SCREWstonRockets]

I've been working at Macy's, I took a leave of absence for the time being to focus on a career in entertainment, and will return during the holidays if I decide to.



You should stay with folding boy shorts at Macy's. There is no health coverage plan in "entertainment". I own a small business so this is a win. You don't have to pay for healthcare so you don't understand what its like to not have health coverage or to have to pay one out of your own pockets.

[RaininThrees]

10% of the issue according to MSNBX

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32170526/

The other thing that no one can control w/ regards to rising health care costs: An aging population. Boomers are going to start needing care VERY soon, so expect the hospital system to get real busy, real soon.

Doesn't stop me from being flabbergasted at the whole debate, but that's beside the point.

[netsfan549]

My parents have medicaid so does that mean I have medicaid now?

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I bet they were like:

Hey lets figure out a new way to tax everyone. We'll just disguise as healthcare. Yeah!

[DonDadda59]

You should stay with folding boy shorts at Macy's. There is no health coverage plan in "entertainment". I own a small business so this is a win. You don't have to pay for healthcare so you don't understand what its like to not have health coverage or to have to pay one out of your own pockets.

Not true, the unions have pretty good health/dental plans... but you need to have an actual career for that to work for you, not just empty talk :oldlol:

Do/will you qualify for government subsidies for your business?

[2LeTTeRS]

Dude how many people do you know with a medical condition that precludes them from getting insurance? Versus essentially the population of every major inner-city combined. Come on.

First off every person who is uninsured isn't just the people who live in inner cities, most people who have insurance gets it through their jobs so people who work in areas like construction or for a small business and the large # of people who just recently became unemployed as the ecnomy faltered also loss their insurance.

Also yes I do know several people with pre-existing medical conditions that have caused them problems with insurance. My dad's arm was broken as a child during delivery, and even though he worked his whole life when he had issues with his shoulder and needed surgery he had to fight tooth and nail with his insurance company.

Also I have a baby cousin that was born with a genetic disease who had to have a tracheotomy and several other operations before she was even a teen. Because no insurance company would cover her it led her parents to have to scrap tooth and nail to get the funding up for her procedures. I never want to see a family go through that.

[netsfan549]

Congress have been trying to pass this for hundreds of years. Republicans said same thing about medicaid but now they are saying ohh yes medicaid is important

[RaininThrees]

If anyone wanted a quick rundown of what the Bill entails, here's the best link I found:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/bgemw/so_healthcare_has_passed_can_someone/

"Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick."

Hilarious.

So... in effect, people were being taxed for being healthy. Sorry, they CHOSE to be taxed.

[Jasper]

Obama wasn't kidding about change. Great victory tonight for America.
This

If this health care system didn't start getting changed , in about 15 years it would be costing us about 10-12k a year for insurance.

I work for an insurance company :oldlol:

[boozehound]

Not true, the unions have pretty good health/dental plans... but you need to have an actual career for that to work for you, not just empty talk :oldlol:

Do/will you qualify for government subsidies for your business?
yeah, the union that stagemanagers are in has ridiculously cheap insurance. you have to work a minimum # of weeks a year (something like 20) to buy in.

[boozehound]

I bet they were like:

Hey lets figure out a new way to tax everyone. We'll just disguise as healthcare. Yeah!
wow, you are clueless. How about you bother to read any 1 of the plentiful summaries in the media? The only people getting a tax increase make over 250k. everyone making less than 4x the poverty level (about 45k for an individual, almost 90k for a family of 4) with never pay more than 10% of their salary for healthcare (through subsidies, etc). Thats at most 9 k for a family of 4, which is way less than buying healthcare for 4 people costs right now.

[boozehound]

"Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick."

Hilarious.

So... in effect, people were being taxed for being healthy. Sorry, they CHOSE to be taxed.
first, arent you canadian? second, how do you derive your statement from that quote?

As the system currently exists, something as commonplace as a c-section pregnancy can be used as a pre-existing condition to exclude coverage for uterine cancers, etc. Insurance companies have used any means necessary to limit coverage for individuals. this will end that practice.

[Take Your Lumps]

http://i.imgur.com/IPpSX.jpg

[RedBlackAttack]

"Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick."

Hilarious.

So... in effect, people were being taxed for being healthy. Sorry, they CHOSE to be taxed.
What? Isn't the whole point of having insurance so that you are covered... when you get sick?

[Mr Clutch Melo]

And you guys call yourself the United States of America?
:roll:

[RedBlackAttack]

And you guys call yourself the United States of America?
:roll:
We are on the verge of a second civil war. There is nothing united about this country at the moment.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

We are on the verge of a second civil war. There is nothing united about this country at the moment.

It's sick how peaceful Europe/Norway is compared to USA. Feel like two diffrent planets at times.

[IcanzIIravor]

We are on the verge of a second civil war. There is nothing united about this country at the moment.

Nah we aren't. Just have the usual angry people, but it will blow over. They either will show their displeasure at the ballot or continue to shout and march, but we aren't close to a civil war.

[RaininThrees]

first, arent you canadian? second, how do you derive your statement from that quote?

As the system currently exists, something as commonplace as a c-section pregnancy can be used as a pre-existing condition to exclude coverage for uterine cancers, etc. Insurance companies have used any means necessary to limit coverage for individuals. this will end that practice.

Yes, I am. And I agree with you.... I think it's great that they will end the practice. Maybe that wasn't clear.

[raiderfan19]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704795604574519671055918380.html

[Tito Beasley]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704795604574519671055918380.html



Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.

:ohwell:

[Hawker]

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs503.snc3/26451_1337320402642_1520070285_31163781_6732848_n. jpg

[Made From Dust]

It's sick how peaceful Europe/Norway is compared to USA. Feel like two diffrent planets at times.

All you fair haired white countries with strict immigration policies maybe. France, Greece, and England have their share of conflict too.

[RedBlackAttack]

Nah we aren't. Just have the usual angry people, but it will blow over. They either will show their displeasure at the ballot or continue to shout and march, but we aren't close to a civil war.
I would venture to say that the country is more divided right now than it has been since the 60s with the Civil Rights Movement and the draft. In fact, it may even be moreso.

The reason is that people today can create an entire reality around themselves and other ideas cannot penetrate them. In today's era of new media, people are told exactly what they want to hear. Republicans/conservatives can watch FoxNews, read the DrudgeReport and other like-minded websites to reinforce how they already feel.

Democrats/liberals watch MSNBC and read Huffington Post to get exactly what they want to hear.

The result is a populous that literally has nothing in common when it comes to ideas or direction of the country. There is a palpable hatred emanating from both sides that is more than a little scary. Now, you have people like Rush Limbaugh saying that liberals need to be 'wiped out' (yes... he said that on his radio show today) and conservatives have descended upon the Capitol Building and the White House, berating politicians with some inflammatory rhetoric.

The President has received multiple death threats today from those on the extreme right and I honestly have no doubt that there are some that would gladly pull the trigger if they thought they could get away with it.

It is a bad scene at the moment. This is really the apex of something that has been building for some time. There is no longer an honest discourse between the two sides. They don't watch the same things, read the same things, listen to the same things, or even see each other when it isn't an aggressive confrontation at a rally.

Things are bad.

[Made From Dust]

Best thing to do is to divide the country and see which one thrives and which one withers. It will be great for the capitalist based side, because the second a nation split was announced, all the entitlement seekers would flee into the socialist side like a bunch of 3rd world refugees.

[RedBlackAttack]

Best thing to do is to divide the country and see which one thrives and which one withers. It will be great for the capitalist based side, because the second a nation split was announced, all the entitlement seekers would flee into the socialist side like a bunch of 3rd world refugees.
The 'capitalistic side.' :oldlol:

As if someone who leans to the left hates everything about capitalism and wants to live in a communist or socialist state.... Or that those that lean right would be happy if all of their social programs are revoked.

Your post illustrates what is wrong with the discourse in this country. It isn't even close to a black-and-white situation.

[GatorKid117]

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, Farewell Address, Sep. 17, 1796

Should have listened to Washington....

[Tito Beasley]

The 'capitalistic side.' :oldlol:

As if someone who leans to the left hates everything about capitalism and wants to live in a communist or socialist state.... Or that those that lean right would be happy if all of their social programs are revoked.

Your post illustrates what is wrong with the discourse in this country. It isn't even close to a black-and-white situation.

The person you just responded to is Legend of Little Bald Joshy. That's one of his gimmick accounts where he tries to impersonate me. You can always tell because although he copies my tone, the articulation and substance is always lacking. Also if you look closely you can see some of the razor-thin hairs that have shed from his dome scattered through the post.

[Made From Dust]

The person you just responded to is Legend of Little Bald Joshy. That's one of his gimmick accounts where he tries to impersonate me. You can always tell because although he copies my tone, the articulation and substance is always lacking. Also if you look closely you can see some of the razor-thin hairs that have shed from his dome scattered through the post.

Oh quiet you. Only about 50% of the American public has started to show concern about the how far the country has started to tilt towards the left, yet you somehow think you have this stance copyrighted with YOUR 500 post gimmick account? :oldlol: Just because your delicate feelings may have been hurt with one or two of my initial posts, don't let your petty pride consume you with spite. Honestly you have no convictions, you don't care about one set of values over the other. You are just a lonely little boy looking for a way to stand out in this basketball forum and since the sport is urban-oriented, you have chosen the obnoxious conservative route to gain people's attention. Your posts scream: "Hey guys! Look at me! I will say anything for you guys to notice me! There is no such thing as bad publicity! So please help me get through my pathetic little life by responding to my posts because if you didn't I don't know what else would validate my existence!"

[InspiredLebowski]

Here's a really useful tool that'll tell you how the bill effects you

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/?hpid=topnews

[Tito Beasley]

Oh quiet you. Only about 50% of the American public has started to show concern about the how far the country has started to tilt towards the left, yet you somehow think you have this stance copyrighted with YOUR 500 post gimmick account? :oldlol: Just because your delicate feelings may have been hurt with one or two of my initial posts, don't let your petty pride consume you with spite. Honestly you have no convictions, you don't care about one set of values over the other. You are just a lonely little boy looking for a way to stand out in this basketball forum and since the sport is urban-oriented, you have chosen the obnoxious conservative route to gain people's attention. Your posts scream: "Hey guys! Look at me! I will say anything for you guys to notice me! There is no such thing as bad publicity! So please help me get through my pathetic little life by responding to my posts because if you didn't I don't know what else would validate my existence!"

Joshy don't you have some shoe-lifts to buy? You're 30 years old, it's too late to add a couple inches onto that 5'4 frame just by drinking milk. If you're gonna strut your stuff in pink and green board shorts, you're gonna need some lifts and some wax to shine up your dome. Don't cheat yashelf Joshy. Co-stanza!

[IcanzIIravor]

I would venture to say that the country is more divided right now than it has been since the 60s with the Civil Rights Movement and the draft. In fact, it may even be moreso.

The reason is that people today can create an entire reality around themselves and other ideas cannot penetrate them. In today's era of new media, people are told exactly what they want to hear. Republicans/conservatives can watch FoxNews, read the DrudgeReport and other like-minded websites to reinforce how they already feel.

Democrats/liberals watch MSNBC and read Huffington Post to get exactly what they want to hear.

The result is a populous that literally has nothing in common when it comes to ideas or direction of the country. There is a palpable hatred emanating from both sides that is more than a little scary. Now, you have people like Rush Limbaugh saying that liberals need to be 'wiped out' (yes... he said that on his radio show today) and conservatives have descended upon the Capitol Building and the White House, berating politicians with some inflammatory rhetoric.

The President has received multiple death threats today from those on the extreme right and I honestly have no doubt that there are some that would gladly pull the trigger if they thought they could get away with it.

It is a bad scene at the moment. This is really the apex of something that has been building for some time. There is no longer an honest discourse between the two sides. They don't watch the same things, read the same things, listen to the same things, or even see each other when it isn't an aggressive confrontation at a rally.

Things are bad.

I still don't think it is that bad. I leave every day to gun fire somewhere in Baghdad. Election day 60 plus rockets and mortars went off from thugs trying to intimidate people into not voting. You still have a lot of kidnappings and attacks here. The USA is doing fine. You will have a few nuts who try to do something but the majority will scream and yell and then either melt away or take it to the ballot come election time. There won't be any wide spread rebellion or civil war.

[Made From Dust]

Joshy don't you have some shoe-lifts to buy? You're 30 years old, it's too late to add a couple inches onto that 5'4 frame just by drinking milk. If you're gonna strut your stuff in pink and green board shorts, you're gonna need some lifts and some wax to shine up your dome. Don't cheat yashelf Joshy. Co-stanza!

Yep ok lonely boy. Keep taking pictures in the mirror and telling yourself you're a catch, and any girl would be happy to have a stud like you for a boyfriend. Then you remember that's exactly what your mommy told you last time she caught you looking at yourself. So you crawl into bed with a Costco-sized bag of Cool Ranch Dorritos and cry yourself to sleep. I know misery loves company, but I really must go. Pop in a DVD of Sandlot and reminisce about the better times in your life, when being a total loser was ok because you were going to be successful and make everyone jealous. Sorry things didn't turn out so well for ya. Tata!

[Younggrease]

Yep ok lonely boy. Keep taking pictures in the mirror and telling yourself you're a catch, and any girl would be happy to have a stud like you for a boyfriend. Then you remember that's exactly what your mommy told you last time she caught you looking at yourself. So you crawl into bed with a Costco-sized bag of Cool Ranch Dorritos and cry yourself to sleep. I know misery loves company, but I really must go. Pop in a DVD of Sandlot and reminisce about the better times in your life, when being a total loser was ok because you were going to be successful and make everyone jealous. Sorry things didn't turn out so well for ya. Tata!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[RedBlackAttack]

I still don't think it is that bad. I leave every day to gun fire somewhere in Baghdad. Election day 60 plus rockets and mortars went off from thugs trying to intimidate people into not voting. You still have a lot of kidnappings and attacks here. The USA is doing fine. You will have a few nuts who try to do something but the majority will scream and yell and then either melt away or take it to the ballot come election time. There won't be any wide spread rebellion or civil war.
If the US is ever viewed in the same light as Baghdad, we are in way more trouble than I had anticipated. I was using 'civil war' in more of a metaphorical sense than an actual reality. But, even if we did have a civil war, it likely wouldn't look anything like what is going on in Iraq.

That said, I would venture to say that this country is more divided now than at any time in modern history. It may not result in actual bombs being dropped and brother fighting brother, but I do see more and more polarization between the two sides and it is entering a very scary situation.

I also don't think that an election or simply time will melt away the disgust and hatred on both sides. This isn't something that is just happening now. Since 9/11, it seems that the country divided right down the middle and you are either on one side or the other. It is only getting more extreme on both sides and I'm not sure I see it slowing down anytime soon.

If the Republicans take back Congress, they are going to attempt to repeal this healthcare bill. Then, you will have liberals coming out in full force the same way that the tea party participants have been doing.

If not, the frustrations of those on the right are going to continue to escalate due to their lack of power. How liberals and conservatives are ever going to come together again and have an intelligent discourse is something that I just can't envision.

[IcanzIIravor]

If the US is ever viewed in the same light as Baghdad, we are in way more trouble than I had anticipated. I was using 'civil war' in more of a metaphorical sense than an actual reality. But, even if we did have a civil war, it likely wouldn't look anything like what is going on in Iraq.

That said, I would venture to say that this country is more divided now than at any time in modern history. It may not result in actual bombs being dropped and brother fighting brother, but I do see more and more polarization between the two sides and it is entering a very scary situation.

I also don't think that an election or simply time will melt away the disgust and hatred on both sides. This isn't something that is just happening now. Since 9/11, it seems that the country divided right down the middle and you are either on one side or the other. It is only getting more extreme on both sides and I'm not sure I see it slowing down anytime soon.

If the Republicans take back Congress, they are going to attempt to repeal this healthcare bill. Then, you will have liberals coming out in full force the same way that the tea party participants have been doing.

If not, the frustrations of those on the right are going to continue to escalate due to their lack of power. How liberals and conservatives are ever going to come together again and have an intelligent discourse is something that I just can't envision.

I disagree to a degree. I think you have a rabid few perhaps at the point, but the vast majority aren't out in the streets protesting or doing much of anything but living there lives. There is a media frenzy going on trying to put forth the message that all of America is taking up sides in this debate, but that just isn't true to what I have seen and heard. Most people will shrug and go about their business. There are only a few things people don't agree on and most people manage to keep civil about it in day to day living.

The country has always been divided. Can go back to Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison and others. It usually takes a catastrophe to bring us all together.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

All you fair haired white countries with strict immigration policies maybe. France, Greece, and England have their share of conflict too.

Norway have a strict immigration policy? You trying to be funny:roll: ?

Every country have their share of conflicts but in the U.S it's almost like people hate each other:roll: ....sick

[RedBlackAttack]

I did a little research in debating another guy on another forum... Figured I would throw it on here...

The civil unrest for this particular bill seems entirely unwarranted.

The truth is, this healthcare legislation will be an absolute fraction of healthcare expenditures even when it is fully operational in 2014.

It is predicted by the CBO that the bill will cost $900 billion over a 10 year period, but you need to look at that number in increments, since that is how it will be paid for.

In 2016, it is estimated that this bill (which will then be fully operational), will account for about $160 billion in spending, while the total expenditure for healthcare that year will be around $3.7 trillion (and that was with or without the bill).

So, basically, all of these doomsday scenarios and cries of "communist" are about 4 percent of what we'll pay in healthcare that year and it will potentially cover 30 million new people. I'm not saying that the bill will work perfectly and do exactly what it is predicted by the Administration, but this virtual civil war that has broken out in the country over the last year seems entirely over the top for a bill that encompasses such a tiny fraction of our healthcare costs that were already in place.

Again... If this country goes bankrupt, it won't be because of this bill. You might want to look at other policies over the last decade that have run us into the ground.

This utter outrage and civil unrest that is unlikely to change the average American's life in the least (besides the possible benefits of the bill) is completely over the top and a political play by those who want back in power, imo.

[raiderfan19]

I did a little research in debating another guy on another forum... Figured I would throw it on here...

The civil unrest for this particular bill seems entirely unwarranted.

The truth is, this healthcare legislation will be an absolute fraction of healthcare expenditures even when it is fully operational in 2014.

It is predicted by the CBO that the bill will cost $900 billion over a 10 year period, but you need to look at that number in increments, since that is how it will be paid for.

In 2016, it is estimated that this bill (which will then be fully operational), will account for about $160 billion in spending, while the total expenditure for healthcare that year will be around $3.7 trillion (and that was with or without the bill).

So, basically, all of these doomsday scenarios and cries of "communist" are about 4 percent of what we'll pay in healthcare that year and it will potentially cover 30 million new people. I'm not saying that the bill will work perfectly and do exactly what it is predicted by the Administration, but this virtual civil war that has broken out in the country over the last year seems entirely over the top for a bill that encompasses such a tiny fraction of our healthcare costs that were already in place.

Again... If this country goes bankrupt, it won't be because of this bill. You might want to look at other policies over the last decade that have run us into the ground.

This utter outrage and civil unrest that is unlikely to change the average American's life in the least (besides the possible benefits of the bill) is completely over the top and a political play by those who want back in power, imo.
The problem with the CBO is it only measures what its told to measure and this bill hides alot of its spending.

That said, I claim to be a moderate though I do have fairly strong conservative leanings. The issue I have with this is that a ton of conservatives who acted like over criticizing the government and speaking about moving to another country was the end of the world during the bush administration are doing exacty the same thing now.

I do not feel that criticizing the government is wrong, didnt then, dont now. But, it is hypocritical to rail against it when you agree with the government and then do the same thing when you dont. Ill be honest, I dont like this bill in the least. That said to all of you saying that Europe or wherever looks nice, good riddance. Everyone that is of voting age is responsible for this. We elected the congress, the senate and the president who pushed this through. If you dont like what the government is doing, change it.

[Tito Beasley]

In 2016, it is estimated that this bill (which will then be fully operational), will account for about $160 billion in spending, while the total expenditure for healthcare that year will be around $3.7 trillion (and that was with or without the bill).



Question:

The 160 billion number. That is the number the program will cost the government in the year 2016. Now the 3.7 trillion dollar total expenditure for healthcare, is that the number the GOVERNMENT would spend anyway without the bill, or is that the number that would just simply be spent on healthcare in the year 2016, including private, government, and other?

The GDP is a lot bigger than the federal government's budget, so while 160 billion might not seem so big compared to 3.7 trillion, for a single government program 160 billion dollars in one year is massive. So I'd be interested in some clarification on the numbers.

[crisoner]

All of you complaining about this Bill...curious how many of you have health insurance right now and what type of plan are you on?

[Tito Beasley]

All of you complaining about this Bill...curious how many of you have health insurance right now and what type of plan are you on?

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2161/picture103f.jpg


Why?

[crisoner]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2161/picture103f.jpg


Why?

LOL

Actually I heart Magic Johnson Kobe is cool though.

I just find it curios that all the people complaining about this bill already have good healthcare plans etc.

Found this pro and cons list....

[QUOTE]Pros:

* Everybody can have health insurance if they want it.
o Insurers will not be able to stop paying for people who are sick, even if they lose their jobs.
o People who cannot afford health insurance won

[RedBlackAttack]

Question:

The 160 billion number. That is the number the program will cost the government in the year 2016. Now the 3.7 trillion dollar total expenditure for healthcare, is that the number the GOVERNMENT would spend anyway without the bill, or is that the number that would just simply be spent on healthcare in the year 2016, including private, government, and other?

The GDP is a lot bigger than the federal government's budget, so while 160 billion might not seem so big compared to 3.7 trillion, for a single government program 160 billion dollars in one year is massive. So I'd be interested in some clarification on the numbers.
The $3.7 trillion is the number for the NHE (National Health Expenditures) and includes businesses, households and government.

Here is a look at where I got the estimates, if you want to read up:

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/nationalhealthexpenddata/downloads/proj2008.pdf (graph 3 pages in)

Like I said, this includes all national health expenditures, but even looking strictly at government spending on healthcare, $160 billion is not a huge number. the government will pay $1.2 trillion on healthcare expenditures in 2011 and that number was released before health reform was passed.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/obama_budget_11.html

$160 billion is not a huge number no matter how you look at it. Trust me, starface... This bill isn't going to kill America. Don't be a sheep and just listen to those that are hungry for power and will say anything to get back in office.

You don't have to agree with it, but this reform is not over-the-top in any way, shape or form.

[Tito Beasley]

crisoner you posted basically an editorial from someone who doesn't even attempt to hide his heavy political leanings.

do you watch the simpsons? you remind me of ralph wiggum.

you don't actually have any original or independent thoughts or views. you're just a side-taker. you're a party chihauhau who just barks incessantly at the other side without even knowing what's going on.

get out of the big boy discussion please.

[Tito Beasley]

The $3.7 trillion is the number for the NHE (National Health Expenditures) and includes businesses, households and government.

Aye, as I suspected.

That's pretty cheesy of whoever wrote the article to word it in such a misleading way.




$160 billion is not a huge number no matter how you look at it. Trust me, starface... This bill isn't going to kill America. Don't be a sheep and just listen to those that are hungry for power and will say anything to get back in office.

You don't have to agree with it, but this reform is not over-the-top in any way, shape or form.

Time will tell, but the unquestioned blanket coverage of this bill, to me, is just a huge step for liberals on their quest to completely eradicate the notion of individual responsibility. Their politicians pander and sympathize rather than ask for accountability, because they know they'll get the votes by simply saying "we'll take from the rich" rather than "stop eating too much and having kids and dropping out of school" and for some reason the average liberal voter has bought in and thinks that society has the right to tap into individuals' taxable income whenever they feel like it and determine what to do with the money.

[raiderfan19]

LOL

Actually I heart Magic Johnson Kobe is cool though.

I just find it curios that all the people complaining about this bill already have good healthcare plans etc.

Found this pro and cons list....
The reason people who already have good health insurance are complaining is because they arent going to be able to keep it. Also, insurance companies havent been dropping people for getting sick. Theyve dropped people who were already sick when they got health insurance and lied about it.(in some cases people honestly didnt know)

This bill will in no way shape or form provide more competition. And more regulation is never good for any industry. The more anything is government regulated, the more it cost. Thats pretty much an absolute rule. The government is to ineffecient.

[RedBlackAttack]

Aye, as I suspected.

That's pretty cheesy of whoever wrote the article to word it in such a misleading way.
Which article? And, I wasn't trying to mislead anyone. I said 'total expenditures' right at the top.

Saying that government run healthcare would go up from $1.6 trillion in 2016 to $1.75 trillion would have made the same point and it would have been just as valid.


Time will tell, but the unquestioned blanket coverage of this bill, to me, is just a huge step for liberals on their quest to completely eradicate the notion of individual responsibility. Their politicians pander and sympathize rather than ask for accountability, because they know they'll get the votes by simply saying "we'll take from the rich" rather than "stop eating too much and having kids and dropping out of school" and for some reason the average liberal voter has bought in and thinks that society has the right to tap into individuals' taxable income whenever they feel like it and determine what to do with the money.

I'm sorry, but it isn't just an accountability/responsibility issue. I have personal experience with people who were denied treatment for cancer because of supposed 'pre-existing conditions.'

My best friend's dad also had a similar experience when he needed a biopsy after cancer treatment to check if the disease had spread and his insurance company (which he had paid into for years and almost never used) refused to pay for it, because he couldn't prove that the operation was 'necessary.' They told him that he had to show proof that cancer remained for him to have his operation, but the only way of detecting if it was still there was to have the biopsy. They put him in a Catch 22 and the doctor eventually had to lie to the insurance company and tell them that they had detected mastation so that he could get the coverage.

That should be an outrage to everyone in this country. Having personal experience with such things, I can tell you that this doesn't just protect the needy from catastrophic injury/illness, it protects those of us that think we are safe until the people that are supposed to protect us (insurance companies) pull the rug out from underneath us by either capping our coverage or finding loopholes to get around expensive treatments.

It is a disgrace.

[RedBlackAttack]

The reason people who already have good health insurance are complaining is because they arent going to be able to keep it. Also, insurance companies havent been dropping people for getting sick. Theyve dropped people who were already sick when they got health insurance and lied about it.(in some cases people honestly didnt know)

This bill will in no way shape or form provide more competition. And more regulation is never good for any industry. The more anything is government regulated, the more it cost. Thats pretty much an absolute rule. The government is to ineffecient.
Man... I'm debating on whether or not to sink my teeth into this particular post. I like you, raiderfan. You are a good poster a lot of the time. But, you are wrong on literally all counts, here.

I have this documentary cued up, though... Tough decision.

[raiderfan19]

Man... I'm debating on whether or not to sink my teeth into this particular post. I like you, raiderfan. You are a good poster a lot of the time. But, you are wrong on literally all counts, here.

I have this documentary cued up, though... Tough decision.
Go ahead. Ill listen(read actually) to what you have to say and let you know what I think. The parts of it I agree with, Ill point out(there will be some. Like all things, this bill is not all evil like its detractors want it to be) and the parts I disagree with Ill let you know(however, like all things its also not all good like its supporters want it to be. I think I know where youre gonna go with the the public option and so on.

[RedBlackAttack]

Go ahead. Ill listen(read actually) to what you have to say and let you know what I think. The parts of it I agree with, Ill point out(there will be some. Like all things, this bill is not all evil like its detractors want it to be) and the parts I disagree with Ill let you know(however, like all things its also not all good like its supporters want it to be. I think I know where youre gonna go with the the public option and so on.
Gonna watch this movie, bro. I'll get back to you another time.

[raiderfan19]

Gonna watch this movie, bro. I'll get back to you another time.
thats cool. Im sure ill be bored at work tommorow too :) Im always open to a good discussion.

[boozehound]

The reason people who already have good health insurance are complaining is because they arent going to be able to keep it. Also, insurance companies havent been dropping people for getting sick. Theyve dropped people who were already sick when they got health insurance and lied about it.(in some cases people honestly didnt know)

This bill will in no way shape or form provide more competition. And more regulation is never good for any industry. The more anything is government regulated, the more it cost. Thats pretty much an absolute rule. The government is to ineffecient.
you really dont know what you are talking about. on either count.

[DeuceWallaces]

The reason people who already have good health insurance are complaining is because they arent going to be able to keep it. Also, insurance companies havent been dropping people for getting sick. Theyve dropped people who were already sick when they got health insurance and lied about it.(in some cases people honestly didnt know)

This bill will in no way shape or form provide more competition. And more regulation is never good for any industry. The more anything is government regulated, the more it cost. Thats pretty much an absolute rule. The government is to ineffecient.

:oldlol:

[rufuspaul]

Well for me personally I think the poll is accurate. About 67% of my brain distrusts anything that comes out of the current congress.

[DeuceWallaces]

Wrong thread.

[bisk]

As a citizen from one the best healthcare systems in the world, with a great part being controlled by the government, I say congratulations.

[Alhazred]

As a citizen from one the best healthcare systems in the world, with a great part being controlled by the government, I say congratulations.

Thank you. :cheers:

[bada bing]

The reason people who already have good health insurance are complaining is because they arent going to be able to keep it. Also, insurance companies havent been dropping people for getting sick. Theyve dropped people who were already sick when they got health insurance and lied about it.(in some cases people honestly didnt know)

This bill will in no way shape or form provide more competition. And more regulation is never good for any industry. The more anything is government regulated, the more it cost. Thats pretty much an absolute rule. The government is to ineffecient.

there are soo many things that are wrong in what you say, but i will let this go except for your very last statement. Government is actually not that inefficient. Governmnt would be efficient in terms of hospital costs. Now using public money to implement is a different discussion. In the hospital setting, it will actually increase efficiency.

This bill actually prevents doctors from wasting money on tests that are not needed and to utilize cost effective measures to diagnose patients. That is considered efficiency. Many doctors will complain about this, and i do agree with them, that they will not have all the tools to diagnose patients and prevent further complications.

[Cannonball]

Social Security is out of money..

what leads people to think this isn't going the same route?

[rufuspaul]

Wrong thread.

Doh!

Still don't like it.

[KenneBell]

I laugh at people complaining about the cost of this bill when Bush signed Medicare D which has been costing the nation something close to $700b a year since 2006.

It's a drop in the bucket in comparison. But whatever, people are uneducated and picking extremes and that's never leads to anything constructive.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

As a citizen from one the best healthcare systems in the world, with a great part being controlled by the government, I say congratulations.

Norway have the best healthcare system:pimp:

[SCREWstonRockets]

I find it funny that the people bitching about how you're required to have health care, are actually the ones that actually have health care. The fact that no one can be denied health care, regardless of pre-exsisting conditions, is a few steps in the right direction.

[Charlie Sheen]

i suffer a genetic condition that requires care for the rest of my life...today i get by with private insurance where i can afford my medication i get to see a doctor any time i want for a 25 dollar copay
can anyone explain what this reform means for ppl like me. can i retain the same level of care at the price im getting it now cause ive been in the county hospitals and i dont wanna get funneled back there. im paying 312 monthly if that matters. from all the stuff ive seen its mostly about making it affordable to families havent seen any of whats going to effect single ppl like me who already got insurance

[KenneBell]

i suffer a genetic condition that requires care for the rest of my life...today i get by with private insurance where i can afford my medication i get to see a doctor any time i want for a 25 dollar copay
can anyone explain what this reform means for ppl like me. can i retain the same level of care at the price im getting it now cause ive been in the county hospitals and i dont wanna get funneled back there. im paying 312 monthly if that matters. from all the stuff ive seen its mostly about making it affordable to families havent seen any of whats going to effect single ppl like me who already got insurance
I doubt it does much at all. This isn't universal healthcare. The private companies will still be operational.

[Charlie Sheen]

I doubt it does much at all. This isn't universal healthcare. The private companies will still be operational.
few pages back someone said ppl with private care wouldnt be able to afford it anymore. it had me worried cause what i got now works for me

[DonDadda59]

few pages back someone said ppl with private care wouldnt be able to afford it anymore. it had me worried cause what i got now works for me

You'll be able to keep whatever coverage you have now and if any change occurs, it would be a lowering of your monthly premium since more enrollees into the program should have that effect.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Bachmann wasting everyone's time. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/22/bachmann-introduces-bill-to-repeal-health-care-reform/?fbid=6Q3Hf0p4ln6)

Biden is still Biden. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/?fbid=6Q3Hf0p4ln6)

[kentatm]

i suffer a genetic condition that requires care for the rest of my life...today i get by with private insurance where i can afford my medication i get to see a doctor any time i want for a 25 dollar copay
can anyone explain what this reform means for ppl like me. can i retain the same level of care at the price im getting it now cause ive been in the county hospitals and i dont wanna get funneled back there. im paying 312 monthly if that matters. from all the stuff ive seen its mostly about making it affordable to families havent seen any of whats going to effect single ppl like me who already got insurance


if you change providers for any reason, they can no longer deny you coverage for your pre existing condition.