Where does Bird REALLY rank All-Time

[MAC system]

1. Kareem/Jordan
2. Jordan/Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

Moses Malone and Dr. J could contest for the 9th or 10th spot.

Best list I've seen so far...Kobe is higher than Hakeem in my opinion, and Bill has to be higher than 6, but good list.

[jlauber]

Barkley is great, but he's not even 6'5. He has said it himself. If that team were to play against somebody, Barkley would struggle with likes of Karl Malone, Duncan, Moses, and any taller, strong, skilled big man.

At least Barkley is in the discussion. To his credit, he played much bigger.

Once again, I personally don't consider his the greatest PF, but he does have a case. That is all I ask in these discussions.

And yes...for those that were wondering...Bird is the greatest SF in MY book, as well (unless someone can show me that MJ was a SF.)

[The_Yearning]

Tim Duncan gets no respect on ISH.

[jlauber]

Tim Duncan gets no respect on ISH.

I have him at #6 on MY list. Is that too low?

[rmt]

But Duncan had the support of 2nd greatest SG of all time in Manu Ginobili. Kevin McHale is not the 2nd greatest PF of all time.

Definitely over Wilt because Bird never played with the Fakers and wasn't a selfish ballhog.

If you disagree with me, you are wrong, gay and stupid.

/thread.

I'm a big Spurs fan, but even I wouldn't call a one-time All-Star, one-time All-NBA 3rd team the 2nd greatest SG of all time. Manu can be spectacular for very short spurts/periods of time.

In contrast, McHale (7 All-Star, 1 All-NBA 1st team, 3 All-Defensive 1st team, 3 All-Defensive 2nd team) and Parrish (1 All-NBA 2nd team, 1 All-NBA 3rd team, 9 All-Star) were far more decorated players.

This board is over-run with Kobe fans. How a thread about Larry Bird turns into this is beyond me. I would rank Kobe 9th only on accomplishments because Hakeem still has him on post season play and much weaker team mates. I'm still waiting for Kobe to play well in the Finals - this last championship, he played well for what - one quarter? When one comes away from a NBA Finals game 7 with the thought that Ron Artest played brilliantly on both sides of the court - it's hard to think of Kobe Bryant as deserving of top 10 status when he can't seem to come up big on the biggest stage. The rest of the widely acknowledged top 10 all had dominant performances in NBA Finals.

Coming from someone who saw the entirety of his career, Bird is in the middle of the top 10 depending on whether you're ranking by play (4-5) or accomplishments (6-7).

[ThaRegul8r]

Tim Duncan gets no respect on ISH.

I have him at #6 on MY list. Is that too low?

Nope. Duncan's one of my favorite players, but I see no legitimate argument for him to be ranked any higher.

[rmt]

Tim Duncan gets no respect on ISH.


I have him at #6 on MY list. Is that too low?


Nope. Duncan's one of my favorite players, but I see no legitimate argument for him to be ranked any higher.

I also have Duncan at #6 mostly by accomplishments. 4 championships as the best player - one of them (2003) with a weak cast of team mates (relative to the other all-time greats). He doesn't have great regular season stats but he has had many dominant Finals/post season performances.

[MasterDurant24]

Best list I've seen so far...Kobe is higher than Hakeem in my opinion, and Bill has to be higher than 6, but good list.
:pimp:

[jlauber]

Nope. Duncan's one of my favorite players, but I see no legitimate argument for him to be ranked any higher.

I'm just curious. You have obviously studied and researched the NBA as well as anyone here, and I have a great deal of respect for your opinions...what does your Top-10 look like? You don't have to explain your reasons, but you are welcome to if you like.

[HighFlyer23]

wtf is russell doing so high on these lists??? lebron is basically in the same position as russell and people are saying he won't even crack top 10 now ...

[momo]

It is surreal reading the occasional poster saying something to the effect of "Bird was far more dominant than Magic" or "Magic was light years ahead of Bird"... not actual quotes, mind you.

It was a hot debate at the time and usually considered a close race at the time, either way, pro Hick or pro Hollywood. How is it so "no question" now?

I hated Bird and the Celts back then. I would never say Magic is unquestionably this or that, better, more dominant, not then not now. It is to dang close and they were too dang good to do that. Takes the fun out.

~~~

As an aside, kids who did not see them back then should brush up on u tube vids before getting in here and stating what either Larry or Magic could or could not do, because you just expose your self half the time. Someone said Magic could not slash :roll: for instance. People also read that they were not great defenders, and then try to spin that as they were bad defenders. Neither were bad defenders. Just not great.

[jlauber]

wtf is russell doing so high on these lists??? lebron is basically in the same position as russell and people are saying he won't even crack top 10 now ...

You must be referring to Byron Russell, right?

[jlauber]

It is surreal reading the occasional poster saying something to the effect of "Bird was far more dominant than Magic" or "Magic was light years ahead of Bird"... not actual quotes, mind you.

It was a hot debate at the time and usually considered a close race at the time, either way, pro Hick or pro Hollywood. How is it so "no question" now?

I hated Bird and the Celts back then. I would never say Magic is unquestionably this or that, better, more dominant, not then not now. It is to dang close and they were too dang good to do that. Takes the fun out.

~~~

As an aside, kids who did not see them back then should brush up on u tube vids before getting in here and stating what either Larry or Magic could or could not do, because you just expose your self half the time. Someone said Magic could not slash :roll: for instance. People also read that they were not great defenders, and then try to spin that as they were bad defenders. Neither were bad defenders. Just not great.

Bird was obviously a GREAT player. My OP was that I personally find it difficult to rank his CAREER ahead of Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and Olajuwon.

I conceded early on that he does have a better regular season resume over Olajuwon (although Hakeem does have a longer career.) I even stated that I don't have a problem with anyone selecting Bird over Hakeem.

Regarding Kobe...it is close, at least now. It won't be by the time Kobe retires.

The Bird-Magic debates? If Bird had a slight edge over Magic in the first half of the decade, Magic surpasses him in the last half, and pulls away considerably into the 90's. Furthermore, in terms of post-season play, Finals performances, rings, and H2H, Magic has the upper hand. Not only that, but while I am sure that Bird made his teammates better, one poster here pointed out just how much better Magic made several of his teammates, in terms of FG% (and I added Kareem's FG% to that list...Kareem shot WAY better in the Magic era than he did pre-Magic, and in his prime.)

As for the rest of that list, I just don't see Bird as having a case over any of them. Some may argue Duncan, based on regular season numbers, but how can you compare the rosters that Duncan carried to four titles, and what Bird carried to three?

Once again, Bird was a GREAT player. I have him at #10, and based on CAREER achievements, I think that is a fair assessment. IMHO, though, he has been highly over-rated. Some posters claim he should be as high as #4. Let's get real here. Over Russell, the greatest "winner" in professional sports history? Over MJ, who blows Bird away in almost every major category? Over Magic, who beats him H2H, in post-season play, in rings, and in overall CAREER's? Over Wilt, who absolutely DOMINATED the NBA like no man in any other professional team sport? Over Kareem, who beats Bird in stats, rings, longevity, and post-season play? Over Shaq, who not only has more rings, but was FAR more dominant in the post-season, particularly the Finals?

Is Bird at #10 such a horrible statement?

[momo]

Bird was obviously a GREAT player. My OP was that I personally find it difficult to rank his CAREER ahead of Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and Olajuwon.

I conceded early on that he does have a better regular season resume over Olajuwon (although Hakeem does have a longer career.) I even stated that I don't have a problem with anyone selecting Bird over Hakeem.

Regarding Kobe...it is close, at least now. It won't be by the time Kobe retires.

The Bird-Magic debates? If Bird had a slight edge over Magic in the first half of the decade, Magic surpasses him in the last half, and pulls away considerably into the 90's. Furthermore, in terms of post-season play, Finals performances, rings, and H2H, Magic has the upper hand. Not only that, but while I am sure that Bird made his teammates better, one poster here pointed out just how much better Magic made several of his teammates, in terms of FG% (and I added Kareem's FG% to that list...Kareem shot WAY better in the Magic era than he did pre-Magic, and in his prime.)

As for the rest of that list, I just don't see Bird as having a case over any of them. Some may argue Duncan, based on regular season numbers, but how can you compare the rosters that Duncan carried to four titles, and what Bird carried to three?

Once again, Bird was a GREAT player. I have him at #10, and based on CAREER achievements, I think that is a fair assessment. IMHO, though, he has been highly over-rated. Some posters claim he should be as high as #4. Let's get real here. Over Russell, the greatest "winner" in professional sports history? Over MJ, who blows Bird away in almost every major category? Over Magic, who beats him H2H, in post-season play, in rings, and in overall CAREER's? Over Wilt, who absolutely DOMINATED the NBA like no man in any other professional team sport? Over Kareem, who beats Bird in stats, rings, longevity, and post-season play? Over Shaq, who not only has more rings, but was FAR more dominant in the post-season, particularly the Finals?

Is Bird at #10 such a horrible statement?

No, top ten is still god like.

Honestly I am not much of a list guy. I could probably think of 30 guys I would want to put in the top ten. Moses? Hell yeaz. Moses was awesome. Cant keep him out. Clyde? Cant keep him out.

I think if someone is going to parse all the #'s and achievements to actually nail the thing down, it is much more complicated than it might seem. How do you get rid of bias? Adjust for ABA achievement? Do we have to have a bunch of caveats? Best career? Best player? Best athlete? Best player not totally screwed by circumstance and fate? How do we REALLY do it?

Edit to add.
And I do not think Magic VS Bird has a clear cut winner.

[alexandreben]

I just watched the bande annonce of "unspeakable me", which reminds me this unspeakable list(just joking, it's weekend):hammerhead: since it's career list, how come Kobe made in top ten while Havlicek not? Hondo has similar career path like Kobe as they both won titles after Russell/Shaq left the team, similar stats(at the age of 31, Hondo averaged 27.5pts/8.2rbs/7.5ast/45.8%; Kobe averaged 27pts/5.4rbs/5ast/45.6%), and their accolades are similar too(had the FMVP awards existed then), how come Havlicek not on the list if Kobe made into the list? not to mention Hondo has more titles(8>5)...

[jlauber]

I just watched the bande annonce of "unspeakable me", which reminds me this unspeakable list(just joking, it's weekend):hammerhead: since it's career list, how come Kobe made in top ten while Havlicek not? Hondo has similar career path like Kobe as they both won titles after Russell/Shaq left the team, similar stats(at the age of 31, Hondo averaged 27.5pts/8.2rbs/7.5ast/45.8%; Kobe averaged 27pts/5.4rbs/5ast/45.6%), and their accolades are similar too(had the FMVP awards existed then), how come Havlicek not on the list if Kobe made into the list? not to mention Hondo has more titles(8>5)...

You could make a case for Hondo in the Top-15. I liked Havlicek (actually I HATED Havlicek...a respectful HATE), but over Kobe? Take a look at MVP balloting. Havlicek was in the Top-10 four times, with a high of 4th. Kobe has been a Top-10 vote getter nine times, with ONE MVP award, and probably deserved as many as three times. He finished second once, and third three times.

Aside from Russell, Havlicek played with several other HOFers (Sam Jones is very under-rated BTW...he played on 10 winners in 12 years, and then of course, Dave Cowens, among others), while other than Shaq, Kobe has played with perhaps Gasol.

Individually, Kobe is arguably one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Three seasons over 30 ppg (and four post-seasons over 30 ppg), and two more over 28, while Havlicek's had one season over 28 (28.9), all while playing in an era of higher scoring (although not a significant difference in the 70's BTW.)

Kobe has been regarded as probably the best player in the NBA in the last half of the decade of the 00's. Havlicek was a great player, but nowhere near that high a ranking anytime he played.

[jlauber]

I just watched the bande annonce of "unspeakable me", which reminds me this unspeakable list(just joking, it's weekend):hammerhead: since it's career list, how come Kobe made in top ten while Havlicek not? Hondo has similar career path like Kobe as they both won titles after Russell/Shaq left the team, similar stats(at the age of 31, Hondo averaged 27.5pts/8.2rbs/7.5ast/45.8%; Kobe averaged 27pts/5.4rbs/5ast/45.6%), and their accolades are similar too(had the FMVP awards existed then), how come Havlicek not on the list if Kobe made into the list? not to mention Hondo has more titles(8>5)...

You are one of the best posters here...

how about your list, and explain why you would put Bird where you do?

[alexandreben]

You could make a case for Hondo in the Top-15. I liked Havlicek (actually I HATED Havlicek...a respectful HATE), but over Kobe? Take a look at MVP balloting. Havlicek was in the Top-10 four times, with a high of 4th. Kobe has been a Top-10 vote getter nine times, with ONE MVP award, and probably deserved as many as three times. He finished second once, and third three times.
I, too, hate Hondo, I mean I REALLY hate him... Wilt said "how lucky is that(stole the ball)", but I don't think Hondo is just lucky to steal the ball, he is one of the best clutch players of all time.. maybe not as clutch as Bird or Jordan, but good enough to compare with Kobe..

now, let's take a reverse thinking, shall we?

Regarding to "MVP balloting" and "MVP award", how many can Kobe get if he played in 60's with Russell, Wilt, Baylor, West, Barry, Kareem, etc? probably same as Hondo?


Aside from Russell, Havlicek played with several other HOFers (Sam Jones is very under-rated BTW...he played on 10 winners in 12 years, and then of course, Dave Cowens, among others), while other than Shaq, Kobe has played with perhaps Gasol.
If Kobe played with same amount of HOFers like Hondo did, I doubt he can get that kind of stats, while Hondo had similar stats even played with several HOFers..


Individually, Kobe is arguably one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Three seasons over 30 ppg (and four post-seasons over 30 ppg), and two more over 28, while Havlicek's had one season over 28 (28.9), all while playing in an era of higher scoring (although not a significant difference in the 70's BTW.)

Kobe has been regarded as probably the best player in the NBA in the last half of the decade of the 00's. Havlicek was a great player, but nowhere near that high a ranking anytime he played.
Kobe has one season averaged 30 ppg BEFORE hand-checking elimination, and that's on a 82 games basis, which's quite impressive(although they lost in the playoffs), and his peak season looks equal to Hondo's:
Kobe @age 27: 35.4pts/5.3rbs/4.5ast/45%
Hondo@age30: 28.9pts/9.0rbs/7.5ast/45%

although Hondo scored 6 pts less, but he delivered more assists and more rebounds, they both has downsides as well, Hondo took advantage of a faster pace while Kobe took advantage of hand-checking's elimination & no star players to share the ball with.

like I said, if we have a little reverse thinking, Kobe's caree is quite similar with Hondo, to me, they are equal..

[FCN]

Hondo > Kobe and it's not close.

[ginobli2311]

You could make a case for Hondo in the Top-15. I liked Havlicek (actually I HATED Havlicek...a respectful HATE), but over Kobe? Take a look at MVP balloting. Havlicek was in the Top-10 four times, with a high of 4th. Kobe has been a Top-10 vote getter nine times, with ONE MVP award, and probably deserved as many as three times. He finished second once, and third three times.

Aside from Russell, Havlicek played with several other HOFers (Sam Jones is very under-rated BTW...he played on 10 winners in 12 years, and then of course, Dave Cowens, among others), while other than Shaq, Kobe has played with perhaps Gasol.

Individually, Kobe is arguably one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Three seasons over 30 ppg (and four post-seasons over 30 ppg), and two more over 28, while Havlicek's had one season over 28 (28.9), all while playing in an era of higher scoring (although not a significant difference in the 70's BTW.)

Kobe has been regarded as probably the best player in the NBA in the last half of the decade of the 00's. Havlicek was a great player, but nowhere near that high a ranking anytime he played.

stop saying kobe deserved the mvp three times. you previously mentioned 2007. kobe had no case whatsoever over dirk in 07. none. at best....kobe should have 2 mvps. at best. he's finished 2nd in the voting only once....and that was in 09....and clearly lebron deserved mvp that season.

list of years kobe did not deserve mvp when he was in the top 5 in voting:
02 - nope....easily duncan
03 - nope....easily duncan
04 - nope....easily kg
06 - maybe......nash was pretty damn good and so was shaq. by the way....kobe finished 4th in mvp voting.....hard to claim he deserved it finishing 4th
07 - nope....easily dirk
09/10 - nope...easily lebron

[Harison]

stop saying kobe deserved the mvp three times. you previously mentioned 2007. kobe had no case whatsoever over dirk in 07. none. at best....kobe should have 2 mvps. at best. he's finished 2nd in the voting only once....and that was in 09....and clearly lebron deserved mvp that season.

list of years kobe did not deserve mvp when he was in the top 5 in voting:
02 - nope....easily duncan
03 - nope....easily duncan
04 - nope....easily kg
06 - maybe......nash was pretty damn good and so was shaq. by the way....kobe finished 4th in mvp voting.....hard to claim he deserved it finishing 4th
07 - nope....easily dirk
09/10 - nope...easily lebron
Majority on forums including me thought Lebron should have gotten MVP in '08 too, it looked like Kobe got it "as a lifetime achievement", because his prime was ending, while Lebron's starting, if he didnt got it then... pretty much case closed.

30/7.9/7.2 at 48,4% or 28.3/6.3/5.4 at 45.9%, whats better? Even CP3 and KG got more votes, somewhat deservingly too, but personally I thought Lebron was already the best in '08.

[alexandreben]

You are one of the best posters here...

how about your list, and explain why you would put Bird where you do?
i'm flattered.. hope that's compliments though women are never disarmed by compliments, men always are:hammerhead:

Bird is THE ONLY player who won 3 MVP in a row in history, I think that's really something.. and take a look at Bird's stats during his three MVP seasons of 1983-1986, he averaged 26pts/10rbs/6.6ast/1.8stl/50%, that's the stats he got playing with SEVERAL HOFers, one might wonder what stats can he got if he played in the "no hand-checking" 05'-06' season with Kobe's "scrub" team mates...

Bird's impacts to the game, IMO, even greater than Russell(if not at least ties with Russell).. we all know the season before Bird joined Celtics which went 29 wins, Archibald, Cowens, McAdoo, JoJo White, and along with Maxwell, Ford, Robey... they only got 29 wins, the first season Bird onboard they went 61 with same key rosters...

1988-89 season, Bird only played 6 games, with those rosters Celtics only went 42-40... take a look at Celtics rosters:
-Ainge(half season) averaged 15.9pts/4.8ast/1.2stl;
-DJ entered his twilight 10pts/6.6ast/1.3stl, but still solid;
-Lewis: averaged 18.5pts/4.7rbs/2.7ast/1.5stl/48.6% (he played 81 games);
-McHale still in his prime averaged 22.5pts/8.2rbs/54.6%(78 games)
-Parish: 18.6pts/12.5rbs/57% (80games)

above all, he played in the golden era with full of quality and quantity of superstars in the league, the competition was just tougher than the 90's and 00's, I've mentioned in some other threads, if Jordan won his 6 titles in the 80's, I would have more respect to his career, and if Shaq dominated the 90's instead of the weak center era in 00's, he would've had a case to argue with Wilt's domination(still not close..)

[jlauber]

i'm flattered.. hope that's compliments though women are never disarmed by compliments, men always are:hammerhead:

Bird is THE ONLY player who won 3 MVP in a row in history, I think that's really something.. and take a look at Bird's stats during his three MVP seasons of 1983-1986, he averaged 26pts/10rbs/6.6ast/1.8stl/50%, that's the stats he got playing with SEVERAL HOFers, one might wonder what stats can he got if he played in the "no hand-checking" 05'-06' season with Kobe's "scrub" team mates...

Bird's impacts to the game, IMO, even greater than Russell(if not at least ties with Russell).. we all know the season before Bird joined Celtics which went 29 wins, Archibald, Cowens, McAdoo, JoJo White, and along with Maxwell, Ford, Robey... they only got 29 wins, the first season Bird onboard they went 61 with same key rosters...

1988-89 season, Bird only played 6 games, with those rosters Celtics only went 42-40... take a look at Celtics rosters:
-Ainge(half season) averaged 15.9pts/4.8ast/1.2stl;
-DJ entered his twilight 10pts/6.6ast/1.3stl, but still solid;
-Lewis: averaged 18.5pts/4.7rbs/2.7ast/1.5stl/48.6% (he played 81 games);
-McHale still in his prime averaged 22.5pts/8.2rbs/54.6%(78 games)
-Parish: 18.6pts/12.5rbs/57% (80games)

above all, he played in the golden era with full of quality and quantity of superstars in the league, the competition was just tougher than the 90's and 00's, I've mentioned in some other threads, if Jordan won his 6 titles in the 80's, I would have more respect to his career, and if Shaq dominated the 90's instead of the weak center era in 00's, he would've had a case to argue with Wilt's domination(still not close..)

Chamberlain won three in a row in the 60's, from '66 thru '68. Of course, a case could be made that he deserved the MVP award EVERY year in the decade of the 60's. Unseld beating him '69 was a complete joke BTW.

You have presented the best arguments for Bird of anyone on this forum. Problem is...where do you rank him? I assume you rank him ahead of Olajuwon and Kobe (like I said, I could live with that...although Bird's post-seasons don't compare with Hakeem's IMHO.)

He certainly has a statistical case over Duncan, but I really think Duncan's impact goes beyond sheer stats. I admit that while Duncan carried much less talented rosters to four rings, Bird's HOF rosters had to battle the greatest teams in basketball history (Philly in the first half of the 80's, the Pistons in the back half, and the Lakers for the entire decade.)

Over Shaq? I personally can't see it. Shaq was more dominant, much more efficient (in a leagues that shot far worse than those that Bird faced), and was MUCH more dominant in the post-season. Add a longer career, and I just don't Bird in the discussion.

The rest of MY Top-5 seems impenetrable. Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt and Kareem.

[jlauber]

stop saying kobe deserved the mvp three times. you previously mentioned 2007. kobe had no case whatsoever over dirk in 07. none. at best....kobe should have 2 mvps. at best. he's finished 2nd in the voting only once....and that was in 09....and clearly lebron deserved mvp that season.

list of years kobe did not deserve mvp when he was in the top 5 in voting:
02 - nope....easily duncan
03 - nope....easily duncan
04 - nope....easily kg
06 - maybe......nash was pretty damn good and so was shaq. by the way....kobe finished 4th in mvp voting.....hard to claim he deserved it finishing 4th
07 - nope....easily dirk
09/10 - nope...easily lebron

The MVP award does not always go to the BEST player. Kobe was the BEST player in the NBA from '06-'08 and an argument could be made in '05 and BOTH '09 and '10, as well. IMHO, Kobe was the best player in the NBA over the course of the last five years, combined.

Dirk and Nash couldn't hold a candle to Kobe in their MVP years. Kobe was carrying rosters with players that would not have made another NBA team. His '06 season has to rank among the best ever. That roster was a 20 win team, at best, without him (and maybe even a 10 win team.)

We have seen the real value of Dirk and Nash in their post-seasons, BTW. As talented as Nowitzki is, he can't carry a team. Same with Nash.

Incidently, who took over at the critical time in the '08 Olympics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant


"Bryant is a shooting guard who is capable of playing the small forward position. He is considered one of the most complete players in the NBA,[150][151] has been selected to every All-NBA Team since 1999, and has been featured in the last twelve NBA All-Star games.[1] Sports writers and sports casters have frequently compared Bryant to Michael Jordan, a comparison Bryant dislikes.[152] In 2007, an ESPN poll of sportswriters voted him as the second best shooting guard in NBA history behind Jordan.[151] He is a prolific scorer, averaging 25.3 points per game for his career, along with 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, and 1.5 steals (as of the end of the 2009–2010 regular season).[153] He is known for his ability to create shots for himself. He shares the single-game NBA record for three pointers made with twelve.[154] Bryant is often cited as one of the most prolific scorers in the NBA,[155] though his 45.5% career field goal average is considered moderate. He utilizes his speed and athletic ability to elude defenders to finish at the basket. Aside from this, he is also a standout defender, having made the All-Defensive first or second team ten of the last eleven seasons.[1] Both TNT and Sporting News named Bryant the NBA Player of the Decade for 2000–2009.[156][157]"

[alexandreben]

Chamberlain won three in a row in the 60's, from '66 thru '68. Of course, a case could be made that he deserved the MVP award EVERY year in the decade of the 60's. Unseld beating him '69 was a complete joke BTW.

You have presented the best arguments for Bird of anyone on this forum. Problem is...where do you rank him? I assume you rank him ahead of Olajuwon and Kobe (like I said, I could live with that...although Bird's post-seasons don't compare with Hakeem's IMHO.)

He certainly has a statistical case over Duncan, but I really think Duncan's impact goes beyond sheer stats. I admit that while Duncan carried much less talented rosters to four rings, Bird's HOF rosters had to battle the greatest teams in basketball history (Philly in the first half of the 80's, the Pistons in the back half, and the Lakers for the entire decade.)

Over Shaq? I personally can't see it. Shaq was more dominant, much more efficient (in a leagues that shot far worse than those that Bird faced), and was MUCH more dominant in the post-season. Add a longer career, and I just don't Bird in the discussion.

The rest of MY Top-5 seems impenetrable. Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt and Kareem.
I agree with most of what you said, and Duncan is one of my favortie players, but I can't rank him over Bird, Shaq is the only superstar that has been swept again and again(and again and again:facepalm ...)in the playoffs, and only won ONE MVP, using Phil Jackson's words, which's a shame for a player like him played in a weak center era... any superstar who play only 65 games per season like Shaq did(even during his peak career in Lakers) certainly will have longer career(Bird played 75 games per season exclude the season he missed if I remember correctly)..

Like you said, the top 5 is imp

[RazorBaLade]

Kobe clearly was the mvp more than once, you're just not gonna get it with the current definition unless your team is A) best record or B) you're head and shoulders above everyone and have a t3 record. (this one isn't happening in todays league)

I'd like for it to be changed, but there would be so many damn ties and multi winners its fine this way. The only thing I'd propose is the MVP to stay the same but to be decided after the 1st round, a best player award to be given after the regular season to the best player and fmvp to stay the same. Would be PERFECT!

[jlauber]

Kobe clearly was the mvp more than once, you're just not gonna get it with the current definition unless your team is A) best record or B) you're head and shoulders above everyone and have a t3 record. (this one isn't happening in todays league)

I'd like for it to be changed, but there would be so many damn ties and multi winners its fine this way. The only thing I'd propose is the MVP to stay the same but to be decided after the 1st round, a best player award to be given after the regular season to the best player and fmvp to stay the same. Would be PERFECT!

In the vast majority of seasons, in almost any professional team sport, the MVP award goes to a player on a winning team (or team with the best record.) I remember Zoilio Versalles winning the AL MVP in 1965. He had a good season, but there is no way he would have been taken in the top-20 in any kind of draft. Same with Phil Rizzuto in '50. I'm sure you could come up with many more examples. Shaq and Kobe with only one MVP award really means nothing to me. Shaq dominated the first half of the decade, and Kobe the last half. That is not a knock on Duncan, who, as I already alluded to, ranks very high on my list. IMHO, Shaq was the best player in the NBA from '98 to '04. Throw out any stats, ...he would have been taken #1 in any kind of general draft. And from about '05 to '08 Kobe was the best player in the league, and once again, he would have probably been the first player taken in a draft. Even in the last two years, when Lebron put up some impressive seasons, many observers, if not most, would have taken Kobe to lead their team. I made reference to the '08 Olympics, where the USA had a plethora of stars, including Wade and Lebron. Who was it that took over late in the Gold Medal game?

MVP awards are fine. They reward players who had outstanding seasons, and usually on winning teams. Coach of the Year awards are a nice reward, as well. But the REALITY is, they do not reflect who was generally regarded as the best player, or coach, at the time. I couldn't tell you how many Coach of the Year's Phil Jackson has won. I do know that he hasn't been fired, unlike multiple COY's. And we ALL know that there was no way in hell that Nash, or Dirk, were BETTER players than Kobe in their MVP seasons. So, please, no more of that nonsense.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=alexandreben]I agree with most of what you said, and Duncan is one of my favortie players, but I can't rank him over Bird, Shaq is the only superstar that has been swept again and again(and again and again:facepalm ...)in the playoffs, and only won ONE MVP, using Phil Jackson's words, which's a shame for a player like him played in a weak center era... any superstar who play only 65 games per season like Shaq did(even during his peak career in Lakers) certainly will have longer career(Bird played 75 games per season exclude the season he missed if I remember correctly)..

Like you said, the top 5 is imp

[ginobli2311]

The MVP award does not always go to the BEST player. Kobe was the BEST player in the NBA from '06-'08 and an argument could be made in '05 and BOTH '09 and '10, as well. IMHO, Kobe was the best player in the NBA over the course of the last five years, combined.

Dirk and Nash couldn't hold a candle to Kobe in their MVP years. Kobe was carrying rosters with players that would not have made another NBA team. His '06 season has to rank among the best ever. That roster was a 20 win team, at best, without him (and maybe even a 10 win team.)

We have seen the real value of Dirk and Nash in their post-seasons, BTW. As talented as Nowitzki is, he can't carry a team. Same with Nash.

Incidently, who took over at the critical time in the '08 Olympics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant


"Bryant is a shooting guard who is capable of playing the small forward position. He is considered one of the most complete players in the NBA,[150][151] has been selected to every All-NBA Team since 1999, and has been featured in the last twelve NBA All-Star games.[1] Sports writers and sports casters have frequently compared Bryant to Michael Jordan, a comparison Bryant dislikes.[152] In 2007, an ESPN poll of sportswriters voted him as the second best shooting guard in NBA history behind Jordan.[151] He is a prolific scorer, averaging 25.3 points per game for his career, along with 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, and 1.5 steals (as of the end of the 2009–2010 regular season).[153] He is known for his ability to create shots for himself. He shares the single-game NBA record for three pointers made with twelve.[154] Bryant is often cited as one of the most prolific scorers in the NBA,[155] though his 45.5% career field goal average is considered moderate. He utilizes his speed and athletic ability to elude defenders to finish at the basket. Aside from this, he is also a standout defender, having made the All-Defensive first or second team ten of the last eleven seasons.[1] Both TNT and Sporting News named Bryant the NBA Player of the Decade for 2000–2009.[156][157]"

again. saying things like "dirk can't carry a team" is laughable.

but regardless. shaq was clearly better than kobe for kobe's first 8 years in the league.....so that brings us to 05.


05 - kobe was not even close to the best player in the league

06 - debatable. but if you are going off playoff performances and stepping up in big moments.....then its clearly wade in 06 followed by dirk (don't forget his game 7 on the road in san antonio). LOL. compare that to kobe's game 7 against an inferior suns team in 06. not even close. so kobe was not the best in 06.

07 - duncan was the best player in the game. 22 points 12 boards 3 assists in the playoffs with the best big man defense and rim protection in the league. kobe was very good in 07. but duncan was better.

08 - kobe was the best player....followed very closely by chris paul and lebron.

09/10 - lebron was the best

so again. your point holds no water at all.

as for the TNT player of the decade thing. anyone that knows the game would simply laugh at that. the first 7 years were dominated shaq/duncan and the last two years have been lebron. charles and keeny both had shaq and duncan over kobe in that idiotic poll.

you can't just kobe has been the best player in the league with no evidence. since 04 i think the order of best player in league over those years to present is 1. wade 2. lebron 3. kobe

if you changed mvp voting now you'd have to change it for everyone all time. jordan would have ten mvps.

that is why mvp awards shares are a better indication. both shaq and duncan are ahead of kobe. the way it should be.

[jlauber]

again. saying things like "dirk can't carry a team" is laughable.

but regardless. shaq was clearly better than kobe for kobe's first 8 years in the league.....so that brings us to 05.


05 - kobe was not even close to the best player in the league

06 - debatable. but if you are going off playoff performances and stepping up in big moments.....then its clearly wade in 06 followed by dirk (don't forget his game 7 on the road in san antonio). LOL. compare that to kobe's game 7 against an inferior suns team in 06. not even close. so kobe was not the best in 06.

07 - duncan was the best player in the game. 22 points 12 boards 3 assists in the playoffs with the best big man defense and rim protection in the league. kobe was very good in 07. but duncan was better.

08 - kobe was the best player....followed very closely by chris paul and lebron.

09/10 - lebron was the best

so again. your point holds no water at all.

as for the TNT player of the decade thing. anyone that knows the game would simply laugh at that. the first 7 years were dominated shaq/duncan and the last two years have been lebron. charles and keeny both had shaq and duncan over kobe in that idiotic poll.

you can't just kobe has been the best player in the league with no evidence. since 04 i think the order of best player in league over those years to present is 1. wade 2. lebron 3. kobe

if you changed mvp voting now you'd have to change it for everyone all time. jordan would have ten mvps.

that is why mvp awards shares are a better indication. both shaq and duncan are ahead of kobe. the way it should be.

Kobe was already among the best players in the league by '01 and his '03 was arguably as good as any player in the league. He WAS the BEST player in the league from '06 thru '08. Yes, better than Duncan in '07, and surely better than either Nash or Nowitzki.

While his best seasons were not as dominant as Shaq's, his overall performance in the decade of the 00's was the best by any player over those ten years.

[RajonKGcelts]

[QUOTE=jlauber]The MVP award does not always go to the BEST player. Kobe was the BEST player in the NBA from '06-'08 and an argument could be made in '05 and BOTH '09 and '10, as well. IMHO, Kobe was the best player in the NBA over the course of the last five years, combined.

Dirk and Nash couldn't hold a candle to Kobe in their MVP years. Kobe was carrying rosters with players that would not have made another NBA team. His '06 season has to rank among the best ever. That roster was a 20 win team, at best, without him (and maybe even a 10 win team.)

We have seen the real value of Dirk and Nash in their post-seasons, BTW. As talented as Nowitzki is, he can't carry a team. Same with Nash.

Incidently, who took over at the critical time in the '08 Olympics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant


[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Bryant is a shooting guard who is capable of playing the small forward position. He is considered one of the most complete players in the NBA,[150][151] has been selected to every All-NBA Team since 1999, and has been featured in the last twelve NBA All-Star games.[1] Sports writers and sports casters have frequently compared Bryant to Michael Jordan, a comparison Bryant dislikes.[152] In 2007, an ESPN poll of sportswriters voted him as the second best shooting guard in NBA history behind Jordan.[151] He is a prolific scorer, averaging 25.3 points per game for his career, along with 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, and 1.5 steals (as of the end of the 2009

[jlauber]

You say some really dumb things. Kobe played with scrubs that couldn't make another nba roster? your kidding? of course they could make another nba roster. everyones biased, and we know you love kobe, but try to be fair.

Take a look at his roster in the 05-06 season. Aside from Odom, that was as bad a roster as there was in the league. And please, don't mention Bynum, who played in 46 games and scored 74 points.

For Kobe to CARRY that team to a 45-37 was a MIRACLE. And do you honestly think opposing coaches were devising defenses to stop Smush Parker and Luke Walton? Kobe was doubled, and tripled, with rotating defenses designed to stop HIM all season long.

IMHO, his '06 season was among the greatest in NBA history. In terms of scoring, it has to rank among the top-5, and maybe even top-3...all against teams that were doing everything in their power to stop HIM.

[Quickz]

Take a look at his roster in the 05-06 season. Aside from Odom, that was as bad a roster as there was in the league. And please, don't mention Bynum, who played in 46 games and scored 74 points.

For Kobe to CARRY that team to a 45-37 was a MIRACLE. And do you honestly think opposing coaches were devising defenses to stop Smush Parker and Luke Walton? Kobe was doubled, and tripled, with rotating defenses designed to stop HIM all season long.

IMHO, his '06 season was among the greatest in NBA history. In terms of scoring, it has to rank among the top-5, and maybe even top-3...all against teams that were doing everything in their power to stop HIM.

Ya I agree with you 100% on this...Kobe's team that year was soo garbage, smush, luke walton, devin george, chris mihm lmao there team so bag. I give Kobe credit for actually being over 500 with this group in a tough western conference.

In terms of offence and scoring, it has to rank as one of the best seasons.

[jlauber]

I don't want to turn this into a Kobe-Bird thread.

IMHO, you can make a case for either. Having said that, though, by the time Kobe retires, it will no longer be debateable.

[chopchop20]

This is kinda silly, I mean people are acting like an MVP award is the holy grail or something. Steve Nash would trade his 2 MVP awards for 5 rings in a heartbeat. Larry Bird would rather have 5 rings and 0 MVPs than 3 rings and 3 MVPs because he's an ultimate competitor and he gets IT

[chopchop20]

Take a look at his roster in the 05-06 season. Aside from Odom, that was as bad a roster as there was in the league. And please, don't mention Bynum, who played in 46 games and scored 74 points.

For Kobe to CARRY that team to a 45-37 was a MIRACLE. And do you honestly think opposing coaches were devising defenses to stop Smush Parker and Luke Walton? Kobe was doubled, and tripled, with rotating defenses designed to stop HIM all season long.

IMHO, his '06 season was among the greatest in NBA history. In terms of scoring, it has to rank among the top-5, and maybe even top-3...all against teams that were doing everything in their power to stop HIM.

Kobe didn't necessarily get shunned because his team was losing. You have to remember the public perception regarding the Eagle Colorado incident between 2004 - 2006. That was a huge factor in him not winning.

[jlauber]

Kobe didn't necessarily get shunned because his team was losing. You have to remember the public perception regarding the Eagle Colorado incident between 2004 - 2006. That was a huge factor in him not winning.

In any case, aside from Wilt's 62-63 roster, I don't think a superstar has ever played with a worse roster.

[Purch]

In any case, aside from Wilt's 62-63 roster, I don't think a superstar has ever played with a worse roster.

D-Wade roster from 08-10 was one of the worst case I ever saw. It's funny because everytime I heard people complaning about Lebron and Melo's cast I'd always redirect them to what Wade was working with at the time.

[COnDEMnED]

D-Wade roster from 08-10 was one of the worst case I ever saw. It's funny because everytime I heard people complaning about Lebron and Melo's cast I'd always redirect them to what Wade was working with at the time.
Why are you bumping threads that haven't had a reply since 2010?

[Purch]

Why are you bumping threads that haven't had a reply since 2010?
LoL I was actually looking for a specific post in this thread that I remembered, but I got bored searching and just decided to reply

[gengiskhan]

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird

case closed.

rest is history.

& please stop these garbage Bird vs Kobe, Bird vs Hakeem, Bird vs LBJ, Bird vs Shaq trashy comparison.

Bird, the greatest off the ball player ever!
Bird, much better passer compared to LBJ
Bird, much better Bball IQ, intangibles compared to LBJ
Bird, much more efficient scorer compared to Kobe
Bird, much better rebounder compared to LBJ
Bird DOMINATED unlike kobe!

I dont mind Bird pushed btw 6-7 GOATs

BUT

Bird is SOLID 5th all-timer.

[Shade8780]

I saw jlauber was the OP and I was thinking "OMFG JLAUBER ISN'T DEAD!", but then I was disappointed when I saw it was from 2010 :(

[FKAri]

jlauber mentions how Dirk can't carry a team in the postseason.

Looks so silly now (it was stupid to say so in 2010 as well imo) :lol

[Clifton]

I think a better question is: What exactly makes any perimeter player ever other than Jordan better than Bird?

When I've asked the question that way, nobody has been able to answer it. In fact they usually say, "Nothing. Bird's the best player ever or close to it."

There is this vague suspicion that because he's white and his game had no glamor, there's something off about him, relative to other all-time greats. But I would counter with this... there's something off about the all-time greats. Magic had the best luck with great teammates and coaches of any player ever, and wasn't nearly the scoring threat Bird was. Shaq had problems with free throws and fouls and relations with teammates and stamina. Wilt wasn't a winner. Russell was not a top tier offensive player who could create on offense at important moments. Kobe is/was Kobe and carries more player baggage than any other elite all-time player. Lebron doesn't have the ability to score on cue and overpasses at times.

To me, there's no convincing argument for putting Bird any lower than 3rd. You can if you want, but after MJ and Kareem it becomes irresolvable to me. The guy was tough, had the highest ball IQ ever, the best shot ever, a great post game. The effortless and timely scoring of Kevin Durant, but with the passing, rebounding, IQ, and defense of Jason Kidd. Oh and with a body that was barely smaller than Karl Malone's, as well as the mobility (not verticality, but mobility) of Lebron James. He's basically a prototype for as good as a player can be without being Jordan or a Center.

[dh144498]

I think a better question is: What exactly makes any perimeter player ever other than Jordan better than Bird?

When I've asked the question that way, nobody has been able to answer it. In fact they usually say, "Nothing. Bird's the best player ever or close to it."

There is this vague suspicion that because he's white and his game had no glamor, there's something off about him, relative to other all-time greats. But I would counter with this... there's something off about the all-time greats. Magic had the best luck with great teammates and coaches of any player ever, and wasn't nearly the scoring threat Bird was. Shaq had problems with free throws and fouls and relations with teammates and stamina. Wilt wasn't a winner. Russell was not a top tier offensive player who could create on offense at important moments. Kobe is/was Kobe and carries more player baggage than any other elite all-time player. Lebron doesn't have the ability to score on cue and overpasses at times.

To me, there's no convincing argument for putting Bird any lower than 3rd. You can if you want, but after MJ and Kareem it becomes irresolvable to me. The guy was tough, had the highest ball IQ ever, the best shot ever, a great post game. The effortless and timely scoring of Kevin Durant, but with the passing, rebounding, IQ, and defense of Jason Kidd. Oh and with a body that was barely smaller than Karl Malone's, as well as the mobility (not verticality, but mobility) of Lebron James. He's basically a prototype for as good as a player can be without being Jordan or a Center.


:applause: :applause:

[Ca$H]

Again this is why my formula is needed. You are correct about his career ranking but you must also give equal weight to peak play.

Career/longevity(10) + Peak Play (6) = 16/2 = 8

Bird is #8 all time.