Hakeem vs Kareem

[Simple Jack]

Been having a lot of these discussions off the internet lately and would like to hear some arguments for both sides.

Who would you take and why?

[iggy>]

Kareem clearly had the better career. But I'd take prime dream over prime jabar, mainly because he's a better defensive anchor.

[TheAnchorman]

Kareem for me... sky hook is one of the surest shots in basketball history. Though Hakeem dominated him in the 86 WCF he was already 39 by then.

[Simple Jack]

Waiting on Fatal/Shaqattack/Jlauber/Kblaze :rolleyes:

[swi7ch]

Kareem just because he's a few inches taller than the Dream.

Shaq would've been the best center ever but he sucks at free throws.

[TheAnchorman]

Waiting on Fatal/Shaqattack/Jlauber/Kblaze :rolleyes:
Shaqattack will say Shaq is greater than either of them, while lauber will say Chamberlain > Shaq. 5 pages of arguments will happen between each other, then KBlaze will chime in and write a thesis about how we can't conclusively prove that each center is better, lamenting on the state of the forum and how its gone down from the early 2000s.

:D

[stephanieg]

Head to head numbers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=abdulka01)

Old man no rebounding Kareem in the twilight of his career played Hakeem very well. First played against him when he was 37. Prime Kareem would wreck him. Huge size difference, similar mobility, just a really bad matchup for Hakeem -- he's more PF sized than C.

It's crazy how good Kareem was for so long. Duncan and KG are basically roleplayers at 33/34, KG with the awesome defense but still.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Kareem was better than Hakeem at literally every aspect of the game besides defense. One of the few players that has a legitimate argument for being the greatest ever.

[Simple Jack]

Shaqattack will say Shaq is greater than either of them, while lauber will say Chamberlain > Shaq. 5 pages of arguments will happen between each other, then KBlaze will chime in and write a thesis about how we can't conclusively prove that each center is better, lamenting on the state of the forum and how its gone down from the early 2000s.

:D
:roll: :roll:

[Gifted Mind]

Of course for many it could depend on if we are comparing their careers or their respective primes.

[dunksby]

The impact of Kareem's sure skyhook I'd say was more than Hakeem's defense.

[Bigsmoke]

Kareem

[millwad]

Career wise I'd take Jabbar but prime vs prime I'd take Olajuwon.
Olajuwon was a better defender and if they faced each other I think Jabbar would have had problem with Hakeem's speed.

Kareem was amazing but he had the luck to play with Magic Johnson, Magic was a great reason to why Jabbar had that significant length on his career, Hakeem never had a Magic by his side..

[miles berg]

In 18 games against each other (as the link above shows), all of which Kareem was 37 & older, Kareem put up 20 ppg on 60% fg% in just 31 mpg. At or above the age of 37!

Kareem all day, the best big man of all time.

[jlauber]

Career wise I'd take Jabbar but prime vs prime I'd take Olajuwon.
Olajuwon was a better defender and if they faced each other I think Jabbar would have had problem with Hakeem's speed.

Kareem was amazing but he had the luck to play with Magic Johnson, Magic was a great reason to why Jabbar had that significant length on his career, Hakeem never had a Magic by his side..

They DID face each other...several times. According to Psileas Kareem had his season-high game against Hakeem in the 84-85 with a 40 point performance.

In that 85-86 season, there is some question as to how often Hakeem guarded Kareem, BUT he DEFINITELY guarded Kareem in at least one game...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206575


Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

For that entire 85-86 regular season, in their FIVE H2H games, Kareem averaged 33.0 ppg and shot an eye-popping .634 from the field against Hakeem and the Rockets.

True, Hakeem torched LA in games three and four of the WCF's, but unfortunately for Kareem, he seemed to have SEVERAL post-seasons in which he played considerably worse than he did in the regular season. He was well below his normal averages against Wilt in their '71 WCF's (25 ppg and .481 shooting, in a year in which he averaged 31.7 ppg and shot .577.) In the '72 playoffs against Thurmond, he averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting, but his superior teammates allowed him to escape to the next series against LA, where, despite 33 ppg, he only shot .457 against Wilt (and only .414 in the last four games.) In game seven of the '74 Finals, and at home, he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (outscored, outrebounded, and outshot), although to his credit, he played exceptionally well for the rest of that series. He was outplayed by Moses in both the '81 and '83 post-season. And, he was awful in his '88 and '89 post-seasons, particularly the Finals.

Still, for a 37 and 38 year old Kareem to be just be CRUSHING a Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23 year old Hakeem, too. Why is that important? Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defense in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23 year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a PRIME Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

BTW, Hakeem couldn't contend with Kareem's sweeping hook, but a 35 year old Wilt, at the twilight of his career, and playing on a surgically-repaired knee, could block FIFTEEN of them in the '72 WCF's.

[jlauber]

BTW, Shaq's HIGHEST game against Hakeem, came in the '99 playoffs and against a washed-up Olajuwon...of 37 points. This was a PRIME Shaq against a has-been Hakeem. Yet, a 37 and 38 year old Kareem had THREE 40+ point games against much more prime Hakeem.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: at jlauber bringing up Wilt again.

And Kareem is one of the 2 guys I consider for GOAT(along with MJ), as much as I like Hakeem(who I think gets underrated), Kareem is the clear answer.

[Harison]

Shaqattack will say Shaq is greater than either of them, while lauber will say Chamberlain > Shaq. 5 pages of arguments will happen between each other, then KBlaze will chime in and write a thesis about how we can't conclusively prove that each center is better, lamenting on the state of the forum and how its gone down from the early 2000s.

:D
:applause: :oldlol:

[Harison]

Kareem had clearly better career, but if I would have to choose prime Dream or KAJ, I would rather have Dream.

[ThaRegul8r]

And Kareem is one of the 2 guys I consider for GOAT(along with MJ), as much as I like Hakeem(who I think gets underrated), Kareem is the clear answer.

Hakeem gets underrated?

:wtf:

[millwad]

They DID face each other...several times. According to Psileas Kareem had his season-high game against Hakeem in the 84-85 with a 40 point performance.

In that 85-86 season, there is some question as to how often Hakeem guarded Kareem, BUT he DEFINITELY guarded Kareem in at least one game...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206575



For that entire 85-86 regular season, in their FIVE H2H games, Kareem averaged 33.0 ppg and shot an eye-popping .634 from the field against Hakeem and the Rockets.

True, Hakeem torched LA in games three and four of the WCF's, but unfortunately for Kareem, he seemed to have SEVERAL post-seasons in which he played considerably worse than he did in the regular season. He was well below his normal averages against Wilt in their '71 WCF's (25 ppg and .481 shooting, in a year in which he averaged 31.7 ppg and shot .577.) In the '72 playoffs against Thurmond, he averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting, but his superior teammates allowed him to escape to the next series against LA, where, despite 33 ppg, he only shot .457 against Wilt (and only .414 in the last four games.) In game seven of the '74 Finals, and at home, he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (outscored, outrebounded, and outshot), although to his credit, he played exceptionally well for the rest of that series. He was outplayed by Moses in both the '81 and '83 post-season. And, he was awful in his '88 and '89 post-seasons, particularly the Finals.

Still, for a 37 and 38 year old Kareem to be just be CRUSHING a Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23 year old Hakeem, too. Why is that important? Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defense in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23 year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a PRIME Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

BTW, Hakeem couldn't contend with Kareem's sweeping hook, but a 35 year old Wilt, at the twilight of his career, and playing on a surgically-repaired knee, could block FIFTEEN of them in the '72 WCF's.


I talked about prime Hakeem vs prime Kareem, Hakeem entered his prime 5 years after Kareem left the game of basketball.

And do you know what the funny thing is, all that text and still you forgot who guarded Kareem during his high point games, it was Sampson, idiot. And there are several clips where Hakeem swatted the shit outta Kareem's beloved hooks..

Kid, instead of watching the statistics, watch the gaaaaames..

[millwad]

BTW, Shaq's HIGHEST game against Hakeem, came in the '99 playoffs and against a washed-up Olajuwon...of 37 points. This was a PRIME Shaq against a has-been Hakeem. Yet, a 37 and 38 year old Kareem had THREE 40+ point games against much more prime Hakeem.

Sampson guarded him, not Hakeem, watch the tapes, fool.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem gets underrated?

:wtf:

Absolutely, most consider him a borderline top 10 player, while I think he's easily top 10 by any criteria(except if you merely ranked players according to rings, which nobody does consistently without considering other factors).

Look at all of the hype Lebron is getting for a run that definitely doesn't match Hakeem's 2 title runs(and he hasn't won yet either), I was young at the time, but I know for a fact that Hakeem wasn't getting this much hype when he was winning. Nor did he get as much as Kobe or any other top 10 player in the last 30 years.

I really don't see how someone could have watched Hakeem and say there were 8-9 or more players better than him. Yet some call him overrated, which makes me think he's even more underrated.

[jlip]

Offensively it's Kareem by a sizeable margin, but I think that people are severely underrating prime Kareem's defense. Regul8r did a post some time ago adressing how underrated Kareem's defensive impact on those early Bucks teams were.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160893&page=7=#96

Also I know that individual stats can't possibly tell the entire story regarding defensive prowess, but Kareem has 4 blocks titles, a rebounding title, and was a top 5 rebounder for most of the 70's. That's even with blocks not being counted during his 1st four seasons. Kareem also has as many all defensive 1st team selections as Hakeem does. A case can actually be made that Kareem was at least Hakeem's equal defensively if not better.

[jlauber]

Sampson guarded him, not Hakeem, watch the tapes, fool.

Definitely not in Kareem's 46 point game...on 21-30 shooting...in 37 minutes.

Here was the recap:


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

Next time...YOU do some research before making an asinine post.

Hakeem obviously could NOT guard an aged Kareem.

No wonder Houston HAD to have Sampson guard the rest-home Kareem.

[jlauber]

Absolutely, most consider him a borderline top 10 player, while I think he's easily top 10 by any criteria(except if you merely ranked players according to rings, which nobody does consistently without considering other factors).

Look at all of the hype Lebron is getting for a run that definitely doesn't match Hakeem's 2 title runs(and he hasn't won yet either), I was young at the time, but I know for a fact that Hakeem wasn't getting this much hype when he was winning. Nor did he get as much as Kobe or any other top 10 player in the last 30 years.

I really don't see how someone could have watched Hakeem and say there were 8-9 or more players better than him. Yet some call him overrated, which makes me think he's even more underrated.

He was no Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem FOR SURE...and I see him with NO case over either Shaq or Duncan. At BEST, he was a #8. And to be honest, his career doesn't match Kobe's. If you want to rank him over Bird, based solely on a better post-season career...I won't argue. Most would disagree even with that.

And the more I look at Moses' peak dominance, the harder it is for me to even rank Hakeem over him. And given West's absolute brilliance in BOTH his regular seasons and post-seasons, he also has an argument. My god...a PEAK McAdoo...and including BOTH regular season AND post-season play is right there, as well.

[kaiiu]

Hakeem just cuz he was black

[G.O.A.T]

Absolutely, most consider him a borderline top 10 player, while I think he's easily top 10 by any criteria(except if you merely ranked players according to rings, which nobody does consistently without considering other factors).

Rings, and the runs he put together to get them are his only case for the top ten.

Otherwise for the rest of his career he did nothing to separate himself from the likes of contemporaries Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley.


Look at all of the hype Lebron is getting for a run that definitely doesn't match Hakeem's 2 title runs(and he hasn't won yet either), I was young at the time, but I know for a fact that Hakeem wasn't getting this much hype when he was winning. Nor did he get as much as Kobe or any other top 10 player in the last 30 years.

That's because his time on top was so short. Hakeem was not in the conversation as the leagues best player prior to 1994. The year before he posted better numbers than Charles Barkley but Barkley won the MVP and the West.

Unlike guys like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell and Jordan who dominated entire decades or eras, Hakeem teetered on the next level and then made a brief appearance among the elite which coincidence or not coincided with the absence of his eras most dominant figure.

Even players like Kobe, Oscar, West, Doctor J and Elgin Baylor were better for longer, tough they never peaked as high as Hakeem.

[jlauber]

Rings, and the runs he put together to get them are his only case for the top ten.

Otherwise for the rest of his career he did nothing to separate himself from the likes of contemporaries Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley.



That's because his time on top was so short. Hakeem was not in the conversation as the leagues best player prior to 1994. The year before he posted better numbers than Charles Barkley but Barkley won the MVP and the West.

Unlike guys like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell and Jordan who dominated entire decades or eras, Hakeem teetered on the next level and then made a brief appearance among the elite which coincidence or not coincided with the absence of his eras most dominant figure.

Even players like Kobe, Oscar, West, Doctor J and Elgin Baylor were better for longer, tough they never peaked as high as Hakeem.

Outstanding post.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[jlauber]

I have said it before, but Hakeem basically built his entire career with TWO playoff runs (and in one of those, MJ did not play BTW.) He outplayed Ewing in one, although his numbers in that series not staggering ( 27 ppg, 9 rpg and .500 shooting.) And in the other run, he badly outplayed Robinson, and IMO, he was, at best, at a draw with a young Shaq in the other (don't take my word for it look at the ACTUAL numbers... he outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, but was outrebounded, and LIT up in terms of FG%, Shaq at .595 and Hakeem at .483.)

BUT, take a look at Hakeem vs. Robinson in their 42 H2H games. Aside from Hakeem outscoring Robinson by two ppg (21.9 to 19.6), and Robinson considerably outshooting Hakeem (.488 to .441)...their numbers were nearly IDENTICAL. Oh, except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

THEN, take a look at Shaq vs Hakeem in their H2H's. Shaq easily outplayed him. A PRIME Hakeem MAY have outplayed a young Shaq, but a PRIME Shaq BURIED an over-the-hill Hakeem.

And one more time...Hakeem NEVER had what I would term a GREAT regular season. He NEVER won a scoring title. He NEVER won an efficiency title (and was never close, either.) He won TWO rebounding titles in EIGHTEEN years (albeit, which is one more than Kareem), and he won four block titles. Many very good seasons, but hardly "immortal" one's.

ONE MVP award...in those 18 seasons. TWO Finals MVPs. A couple of statistical titles. And EIGHT first round exits in the playoffs in 15 (of 18) seasons...or over HALF of his career. Sorry, but that PALES in comparison to players like Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Duncan. Then, it just becomes very close between Hakeem, Bird, Oscar, Moses, Kobe and West.

[G.O.A.T]

I have said it before, but Hakeem basically built his entire career with TWO playoff runs (and in one of those, MJ did not play BTW.) He outplayed Ewing in one, although his numbers in that series not staggering ( 27 ppg, 9 rpg and .500 shooting.) And in the other run, he badly outplayed Robinson, and IMO, he was, at best, at a draw with a young Shaq in the other (don't take my word for it look at the ACTUAL numbers... he outscored Shaq, 32-28 ppg, but was outrebounded, and LIT up in terms of FG%, Shaq at .595 and Hakeem at .483.)

BUT, take a look at Hakeem vs. Robinson in their 42 H2H games. Aside from Hakeem outscoring Robinson by two ppg (21.9 to 19.6), and Robinson considerably outshooting Hakeem (.488 to .441)...their numbers were nearly IDENTICAL. Oh, except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

THEN, take a look at Shaq vs Hakeem in their H2H's. Shaq easily outplayed him. A PRIME Hakeem MAY have outplayed a young Shaq, but a PRIME Shaq BURIED an over-the-hill Hakeem.

And one more time...Hakeem NEVER had what I would term a GREAT regular season. He NEVER won a scoring title. He NEVER won an efficiency title (and was never close, either.) He won TWO rebounding titles in EIGHTEEN years (albeit, which is one more than Kareem), and he won four block titles. Many very good seasons, but hardly "immortal" one's.

ONE MVP award...in those 18 seasons. TWO Finals MVPs. A couple of statistical titles. And EIGHT first round exits in the playoffs in 15 (of 18) seasons...or over HALF of his career. Sorry, but that PALES in comparison to players like Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Duncan. Then, it just becomes very close between Hakeem, Bird, Oscar, Moses, Kobe and West.

I think the bold is a little strong. Those two playoff runs were what every superstar in that era not named Jordan was aspiring for. I think when people see Hakeem's numbers and see him play, the individual ability is off the charts and he is relatable to nearly all fans.

When someone, justifiably, criticizes his ability from 1989-1992/93 to make his team better and to lead, people misconstrue that with underrated or underestimating his individual talent, which never really dipped. In fact, more so than most centers because of his belated learning curve, Hakeem continued to improve even into his mid-thirties, especially skill wise and more importantly mentally. He went to, in his words from the S feature "A better place" He learned to trust his teammates and coaches without questioning or betraying his instincts and personal pride. Maturity was a big part of what made him become the all-time great player he was for those two seasons.

[jlauber]

I think the bold is a little strong. Those two playoff runs were what every superstar in that era not named Jordan was aspiring for. I think when people see Hakeem's numbers and see him play, the individual ability is off the charts and he is relatable to nearly all fans.

When someone, justifiably, criticizes his ability from 1989-1992/93 to make his team better and to lead, people misconstrue that with underrated or underestimating his individual talent, which never really dipped. In fact, more so than most centers because of his belated learning curve, Hakeem continued to improve even into his mid-thirties, especially skill wise and more importantly mentally. He went to, in his words from the S feature "A better place" He learned to trust his teammates and coaches without questioning or betraying his instincts and personal pride. Maturity was a big part of what made him become the all-time great player he was for those two seasons.

Take away his TWO seasons in '94 and '95, and what do you have? You have a career that was certainly not as great as Robinsons' or Moses'...and maybe not even as great as Ewing's. Plain-and-simple.

Then, factor in that even in one of his title runs, he managed to escape playing a 55 win Bulls team withOUT MJ. Put MJ on that team, and I just don't see the Rockets having much of a chance. I will say that Hakeem might still have won a title in '95, because a refreshed MJ still could not get the Bulls past Shaq's Magic. But that was it. The rest of his career involved many very good seasons, with ZERO truly GREAT one's...in a LONG career.

And I think fans are even over-rating his peak. Yes, he badly outplayed a prime Robinson, but that was ONE series. Over the course of their other 42 games, I would rate them equal, except that Robinson's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's teams.

He had some great post-seasons, but he also had his share of crappy one's too. And, one more time...EIGHT First Round exits. And only THREE Finals...in 18 seasons. His post-season career was somewhat better than Moses', but he wasn't as dominant in the regular season. West won one ring, but went to NINE Finals...and had some unbelievable playoff runs, himself (he still holds the single playoffs series scoring record of 46.4 ppg, as well as having a 38 ppg Finals and winning the Finals MVP on a losing team.) McAdoo's PEAK seasons, BOTH in the regular season, and the post-season, for three straight years certainly puts him in the conversation for those that include PEAK play.

Overall, those two title runs are probably just enough to SQUEEZE into the top-10 all-time. However, give Lebron a few more years, and Hakeem will be on the outside looking in.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was no Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem FOR SURE...and I see him with NO case over either Shaq or Duncan. At BEST, he was a #8. And to be honest, his career doesn't match Kobe's. If you want to rank him over Bird, based solely on a better post-season career...I won't argue. Most would disagree even with that.

And the more I look at Moses' peak dominance, the harder it is for me to even rank Hakeem over him. And given West's absolute brilliance in BOTH his regular seasons and post-seasons, he also has an argument. My god...a PEAK McAdoo...and including BOTH regular season AND post-season play is right there, as well.

Having seen Kobe and Duncan play for so long, I feel comfortable saying that neither were as good as Hakeem. And while I have Shaq above Hakeem, I have no problem with someone putting Hakeem over Shaq.

Magic? I may have missed Magic's prime as it was happening, but I've seen tons of Magic games and I definitely think Hakeem was a better player. I rank Hakeem's peak over Magic, he had better longevity and his early pre-prime years were better.

Moses? Hakeem was better at everything except rebounding. Every Moses Malone game I see shows he was as big of a black hole as anyone to play the game. He'd consistent catch the ball in the post, hold the ball, get doubled, still hold the ball and force up a shot. Hakeem developed into a very good passer and you could run the offense through him a lot. In fact, this was a huge key to the Rockets success when they won. Unlike Moses, he made his teammates better.

And defensively? Hakeem consistently anchored excellent defensive teams, was one of the game's premier shot blockers and most versatile defensive centers. Moses on the otherhand did nothing to prevent his Rocket teams from being below average defensively, they were actually the worst or 2nd worst defensive team several years. To put it simply, that's not going to happen if hakeem is on your team.

And how about the 1 ring Malone did win? That team had gotten to the finals and went 58-24 the previous year without him, and that was no fluke either considering they had contended for titles in '80 and '81 as well. he replaced Caldwell Jones on a team that was already good enough to compete for a title without him.

And you're the first person I've heard rank McAdoo up there with Kareem.


Rings, and the runs he put together to get them are his only case for the top ten.

Otherwise for the rest of his career he did nothing to separate himself from the likes of contemporaries Ewing, Robinson, Malone and Barkley.

his consistently superior postseason play separated him from Robinson, if it were based on just regular season success, Robinson would have been borderline top 10, so not separating himself from Robinson in that regard is nothing to be ashamed.

As much as I like Ewing, with the exception of 1990, Hakeem was superior just about every year due to being as good or better in every aspect of the game. I also consider him flat out better than Barkley and Malone because of his ability to dominate a game with his scoring, but also anchor a defense unlike either of those guys(Malone was a good post defender, but wasn't a defensive anchor like Hakeem).


That's because his time on top was so short. Hakeem was not in the conversation as the leagues best player prior to 1994. The year before he posted better numbers than Charles Barkley but Barkley won the MVP and the West.

But he also finished above Michael Jordan in MVP voting and imo, Hakeem should have won that MVP(though Barkley was also deserving).


Unlike guys like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell and Jordan who dominated entire decades or eras, Hakeem teetered on the next level and then made a brief appearance among the elite which coincidence or not coincided with the absence of his eras most dominant figure.

I disagree, I think he was elite from his 2nd season on, but didn't get the recognition others did because of poor supporting casts.


Even players like Kobe, Oscar, West, Doctor J and Elgin Baylor were better for longer, tough they never peaked as high as Hakeem.

I definitely disagree here. And Oscar is perhaps the most overrated player in NBA history, imo, I don't feel like re-typing why I feel this so here's a post I made on the subject a few months ago.


I'm not even talking about the quality of the players, just the stats in context, and I feel Oscar benefits a lot from people not putting the stats into perspective.

As far as team success, here are Oscar's Royals records.

1961- 33-46
1962- 43-37
1963- 42-38
1964- 55-25
1965- 48-32
1966- 45-35
1967- 39-42
1968- 39-43
1969- 41-41
1970- 36-46

He missed the playoffs 4 times in those seasons and won a total of 2 playoff series with Cincinnati. And the excuse that he played during the Celtics era doesn't work because they only lost to the Celtics 3 times in the playoffs, less than the amount of times Ewing's Knicks lost to Jordan's Bulls and the same amount of times that Barkley lost to Jordan's Bulls.

So, 2 playoff series wins, no finals appearances, one 50 win season.

And the supporting cast argument doesn't work unless you use it for Garnett, Robinson, Ewing ect.

Oscar entered the league with future hall of famer Jack Tyman who would make 2 all-star teams while playing with Robertson('62 and '63) and the all-nba second team in '62, Wayne Embry who made 5 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Robertson('61-'65) and then he got Jerry Lucas who made 6 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Oscar('64-'69) as well as 3 all-nba first teams and 2 all-nba second teams in those years. Adrian Smith also made the '66 all-star team while playing with Oscar and Tom Van Arsdale made the 1970 all-star team while playing with Oscar.

I don't view Dr. J as reaching a level similar to Hakeem's either. Tougher for me to say when it comes to West and Baylor, I've researched their careers, but haven't given as much thought to them as say, Wilt, Russell and Oscar.

[jlauber]

For three straight seasons, McAdoo WAS mentioned with a PRIME Kareem. He finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP balloting.

How did he do in those three years? Saddled with rosters considerably worse than what even Hakeem had,...

In 1973-74 he averaged 30.6 ppg (LED the league) , 15.1 rpg, and shot .547. Then, in the playoffs, he averaged 31.7 ppg, 13.7 rpg, and shot .478.

In 74-75, he led the NBA in scoring at 34.5 (in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg per team BTW), 14.1 rpg, and shot .512. How about his post-season? 37.4 ppg, 13.4 rpg, and .481.

And in 75-76, he once AGAIN LED the NBA in scoring at 31.1 ppg, 12.4 rpg, and shot .487. In the post-season, he averaged 28.0 ppg, 14.2 rpg, and shot .451.

That's a pretty damned impressive three-year run by ANY player in NBA HISTORY. Only a handful of players can match that. And Hakeem is not one of them.

[jlauber]

Magic? I may have missed Magic's prime as it was happening, but I've seen tons of Magic games and I definitely think Hakeem was a better player. I rank Hakeem's peak over Magic, he had better longevity and his early pre-prime years were better.



:roll: :roll: :roll:

Magic won THREE MVP awards (and had a SOLID case for MVP in '82.) He won THREE Finals MVPs, and was EVERY bit as DOMINANT in his post-seasons, as Hakeem was in his. NINE Finals in 12 years, and FIVE rings...and seasons of 63-19 and 58-24 withOUT Kareem. Hakeem did have an edge in longevity, but PEAK????? Magic was the PLAYER of the DECADE, especially if you factor in post-season play (he was considerably better than Bird in the post-season, and much better H2H.) Hakeem had TWO seasons in which he was arguably the best player in the league.

Magic took a Laker team that, despite having as much talent as any team in the league, were no more than ordinary. He IMMEDIATELY led them to a title in his first year, an when he retired, the Lakers IMMEDIATELY returned to mediocrity. And his game six of the '80 Finals was greater than ANY of Hakeem's Finals games, too. And I would also take Magic's '87 Finals over either of Hakeem's '94 or '95 Finals, as well.

26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%...and he ENGINEERED the Laker offense which just crushed Boston in the Finals.

[Fatal9]

^^ you have to be the most biased, illogical poster on this board. Hakeem's prime wasn't as good as McAdoo's now? Sometimes I wonder if you even watch basketball or just look around for numbers while never applying context (because for example, someone who understands basketball should not need to be explained why Bird is a superior offensive player to Dantley). I mean I really shouldn't even waste my time but...

Take away his TWO seasons in '94 and '95, and what do you have?
Take out '67 and '72 for Wilt and what do you have? A career loser who rarely raised his game in the playoffs.

Take out '09 and '10 for Kobe and what do you have? A career sidekick.

And so on for other players.

What kind of nonsense is this? And Hakeem in '86 led his team to the finals, something no one expected (is that not a great playoff run?). Individually he always raised his game in the playoffs (unlike a certain someone), but got screwed by the breakup of the team after '87 when most of the guys from the '86 team began getting in drug problems or got injured (Sampson for example). And it's not just '94 and '95, Hakeem was in discussion for best player in '93. Watch some games, commentators are always commenting on how many people thought he was MVP of the league (he came second btw, higher than MJ). Hubie Brown in the playoffs that year mentioned how MJ and Hakeem were playing head and shoulders above everybody else in the league that season because of their insane impact on both sides of the ball.

And to be honest, Hakeem is farther away from his man to man defense prime in '85 than Kareem was to his scoring prime that same year. KAJ could still drop 30 efficiently on anyone, but Hakeem was just a terrible man to man defender in the post (especially against someone who had a physical advantage over him). Here for example is the 40 point game he had against Hakeem/Sampson in '85, look at how bad of man defender Hakeem is at 6:22 and 8:46: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA. All you were hoping out of him was "try not to pick up dumb fouls". If we're going through the "KAJ wasn't in his prime" angle, then how the hell is it fair to act like Hakeem was in his prime when his post defense looked like that of an inexperienced rookie (who looked like a beanpole too). All he was early on in his career was a good shotblocker who gambled a LOT on defense, no where near how good he would be in his defensive prime. And this is from someone who made this board aware of all those KAJ games as well. And anyways, Hakeem defended KAJ decently well whenever he was on him in the playoffs in '86 and outplayed him clearly. This is like taking the 50 point game and the 40 point games that KAJ had on Wilt in '72 season and not taking into account the good defense Wilt played on him in the playoffs.

[juju151111]

^^ you have to be the most biased, illogical poster on this board. Hakeem's prime wasn't as good as McAdoo's now? Sometimes I wonder if you even watch basketball or just look around for numbers while never applying context (because for example, someone who understands basketball should not need to be explained why Bird is a superior offensive player to Dantley). I mean I really shouldn't even waste my time but...

Take out '67 and '72 for Wilt and what do you have? A career loser who rarely raised his game in the playoffs.

Take out '09 and '10 for Kobe and what do you have? A career sidekick.

And so on for other players.

What kind of nonsense is this? And Hakeem in '86 led his team to the finals, something no one expected (is that not a great playoff run?). Individually he always raised his game in the playoffs (unlike a certain someone), but got screwed by the breakup of the team after '87 when most of the guys from the '86 team began getting in drug problems or got injured (Sampson for example). And it's not just '94 and '95, Hakeem was in discussion for best player in '93. Watch some games, commentators are always commenting on how many people thought he was MVP of the league (he came second btw, higher than MJ). Hubie Brown in the playoffs that year mentioned how MJ and Hakeem were playing head and shoulders above everybody else in the league that season because of their insane impact on both sides of the ball.

And to be honest, Hakeem is farther away from his man to man defense prime in '85 than Kareem was to his scoring prime that same year. KAJ could still drop 30 efficiently on anyone, but Hakeem was just a terrible man to man defender in the post (especially against someone who had a physical advantage over him). Here for example is the 40 point game he had against Hakeem/Sampson in '85, look at how bad of man defender Hakeem is at 6:22 and 8:46: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA. All you were hoping out of him was "try not to pick up dumb fouls". If we're going through the "KAJ wasn't in his prime" angle, then how the hell is it fair to act like Hakeem was in his prime when his post defense looked like that of an inexperienced rookie (who looked like a beanpole too). All he was early on in his career was a good shotblocker who gambled a LOT on defense, no where near how good he would be in his defensive prime. And this is from someone who made this board aware of all those KAJ games as well. And anyways, Hakeem defended KAJ decently well whenever he was on him in the playoffs in '86 and outplayed him clearly. This is like taking the 50 point game and the 40 point games that KAJ had on Wilt in '72 season and not taking into account the good defense Wilt played on him in the playoffs.
:applause:

[LebronGOAT]

They DID face each other...several times. According to Psileas Kareem had his season-high game against Hakeem in the 84-85 with a 40 point performance.

In that 85-86 season, there is some question as to how often Hakeem guarded Kareem, BUT he DEFINITELY guarded Kareem in at least one game...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206575



For that entire 85-86 regular season, in their FIVE H2H games, Kareem averaged 33.0 ppg and shot an eye-popping .634 from the field against Hakeem and the Rockets.

True, Hakeem torched LA in games three and four of the WCF's, but unfortunately for Kareem, he seemed to have SEVERAL post-seasons in which he played considerably worse than he did in the regular season. He was well below his normal averages against Wilt in their '71 WCF's (25 ppg and .481 shooting, in a year in which he averaged 31.7 ppg and shot .577.) In the '72 playoffs against Thurmond, he averaged 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting, but his superior teammates allowed him to escape to the next series against LA, where, despite 33 ppg, he only shot .457 against Wilt (and only .414 in the last four games.) In game seven of the '74 Finals, and at home, he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens (outscored, outrebounded, and outshot), although to his credit, he played exceptionally well for the rest of that series. He was outplayed by Moses in both the '81 and '83 post-season. And, he was awful in his '88 and '89 post-seasons, particularly the Finals.

Still, for a 37 and 38 year old Kareem to be just be CRUSHING a Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23 year old Hakeem, too. Why is that important? Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defense in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23 year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a PRIME Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

BTW, Hakeem couldn't contend with Kareem's sweeping hook, but a 35 year old Wilt, at the twilight of his career, and playing on a surgically-repaired knee, could block FIFTEEN of them in the '72 WCF's.

Regular season games are meaningless. Hakeem dominated Kareem in the WCF that year in 5 games. Now granted Kareem was old, but don't act like old Kareem destroyed Hakeem in a meaningful game.

Hakeem leading the way to the NBA finals in 1986 with a easy upset of LA proves just how dominant he was.

Kareem had more longevity, but I will take prime Hakeem over Kareem. Prime Hakeem was a monster and a far superior player than he was when younger.

[jlauber]

^^ you have to be the most biased, illogical poster on this board. Hakeem's prime wasn't as good as McAdoo's now? Sometimes I wonder if you even watch basketball or just look around for numbers while never applying context (because for example, someone who understands basketball should not need to be explained why Bird is a superior offensive player to Dantley). I mean I really shouldn't even waste my time but...

Take out '67 and '72 for Wilt and what do you have? A career loser who rarely raised his game in the playoffs.

Take out '09 and '10 for Kobe and what do you have? A career sidekick.

And so on for other players.

What kind of nonsense is this? And Hakeem in '86 led his team to the finals, something no one expected (is that not a great playoff run?). Individually he always raised his game in the playoffs (unlike a certain someone), but got screwed by the breakup of the team after '87 when most of the guys from the '86 team began getting in drug problems or got injured (Sampson for example). And it's not just '94 and '95, Hakeem was in discussion for best player in '93. Watch some games, commentators are always commenting on how many people thought he was MVP of the league (he came second btw, higher than MJ). Hubie Brown in the playoffs that year mentioned how MJ and Hakeem were playing head and shoulders above everybody else in the league that season because of their insane impact on both sides of the ball.

And to be honest, Hakeem is farther away from his man to man defense prime in '85 than Kareem was to his scoring prime that same year. KAJ could still drop 30 efficiently on anyone, but Hakeem was just a terrible man to man defender in the post (especially against someone who had a physical advantage over him). Here for example is the 40 point game he had against Hakeem/Sampson in '85, look at how bad of man defender Hakeem is at 6:22 and 8:46: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA. All you were hoping out of him was "try not to pick up dumb fouls". If we're going through the "KAJ wasn't in his prime" angle, then how the hell is it fair to act like Hakeem was in his prime when his post defense looked like that of an inexperienced rookie (who looked like a beanpole too). All he was early on in his career was a good shotblocker who gambled a LOT on defense, no where near how good he would be in his defensive prime. And this is from someone who made this board aware of all those KAJ games as well. And anyways, Hakeem defended KAJ decently well whenever he was on him in the playoffs in '86 and outplayed him clearly. This is like taking the 50 point game and the 40 point games that KAJ had on Wilt in '72 season and not taking into account the good defense Wilt played on him in the playoffs.

Take '67 and '72 out of Wilt's career, and you have a player who went to FOUR other Finals, and TEN other Conference Finals, and outplayed his opposing center in ALL of them...including Kareem in the two in which he faced him (this, despite being 11 years older, and playing on a surgically repaired knee.) And the "loser: Chamberlain took inferior rosters to game sevens on two occasions against the vaunted Celtic Dynasty. All-in-all, he was NINE points away, in FOUR game sevens, from probably going on to win FOUR more rings. Hakeem can't come close to those numbers in his 18 season career (and remember, Wilt only played 14 seasons...and in his LAST two seasons, he won a title with a 69-13 team, and then took an injury-riddled 60-22 team to the Finals in his LAST season.)

Didn't elevate his play? FOUR post-seasons of 33+ ppg (and another two of 29m and 28 ppg), and EIGHT of 24.7+ rpg (and NEVER less than 20.2 rpg in ANY of his 13 post-seasons...including a 22.5 rpg average in his LAST post-season at age 36), and a post-season FG% of .522 in leagues that ranged from .410 to .456 (Put Wilt in Hakeem's 80's, and he would likely have shot over 60% BTW.) Even in his lowest FG% post-seasons, he was BLOWING AWAY the league average (something that Kareem failed to do in FIVE of his post-seasons BTW.) He had entire playoff series against Russell in which he averaged 30 ppg-27 rpg, 33 ppg-26 rpg, 29 ppg-27 rpg, 30 ppg-31 rpg, 28 ppg-30 rpg, and then a 22-32-10 series against him in '67 when he outshot Russell by a .556 to .358 margin. When Wilt was fortunate enough to just face a FIVE-TIME All-Star, like Zelmo Beatty, all he did was put up a 38-23 series in seven games. Against all-star center Red Kerr, he had a 38 ppg and then a 37-23 ppg series. Against journeyman Connie Dierking, he hung a 28-27-11 .612 post-season. In the '70 Finals, and basically on one le, he put up the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history ( 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and a staggering .625 FG%.) He had playoff games against Russell of 50 point and 35 rebounds, and 42-37, and 46-34, and 42-29, and 41-34, and a TON of 30-30 games against him. He had a 56-35 game in a game five of a best-of-five playoff series. He had a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting) in game six of the '70 Finals. He had a 24-32-13-12 game against Russell in one game of the '67 ECF's, and he followed that up with a 20-41 game in game three, and then a 29-36-13-7 clinching game five win.

And speaking of Kareem's 50 point game against Wilt...his TEAM was blown out 123-107, and he was outrebounded by Wilt. 25-8. Not only that but he took 39 shots. In fact, Kareem and Wilt went H2H 28 times, and in 18 of them, Kareem took 30+ shots. He only hit 50% in six of those. Not only that, but in six more, he shot less than 40% against Wilt.

Of course, Kareem NEVER faced a PRIME Chamberlain. A Wilt that could score 45 and 38 point games on Thurmond (and a 24 point second half in a game in a seaosn in which he only averaged 14.2 FGAs per game.) Meanwhile, Kareem's HIGH game against Thurmond, in 61 H2H meetings was 36 points. And without taking the time to look up his numbers, he probably shot much worse than 45% against him in his CAREER. BTW, he shot .464 against Wilt in their 28 H2H games, and only .434 over the course of their LAST ten games (including a .414 performance in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.)

However, a 37 and 38 year ol Kareem could score at will against Hakeem. I find it fascinating that Kareem averaged 20.2 ppg and shot .599 in the LAST four seasons of his career against Hakeem-led Rocket teams (at ages 38 thru 41 BTW). And we know that Kareem shot 70% in the 46 point game against Hakeem. In that 85-86 season, Kareem not only averaged 33 ppg, he shot an eye-popping .634 from the floor against Hakeem and his Rockets.

A PRIME Hakeem is credited with outplaying a young Shaq in the '95 Finals, although I would call it a draw. And don't forget, Shaq outshot Hakeem in that series, .595 to .483. However, a PRIME Shaq just CRUSHED a washed-up Hakeem in '99. Hakeem outplayed Robinson in the '95 WCF's, but in the rest of their 42 H2H games, I would call it a draw...except that DRob's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's teams.

One more time...ONE MVP...TWO Finals MVPs, and a couple of rebounding and shot-blocking titles...in EIGHTEEN seasons. Including EIGHT first-round exits in his 15 post-seasons.

Of course, let's include ALL of their accomplishments in the ridiculous Hakeem-Wilt debate, shall we?

MVPs, Wilt with a 4-1 edge (and probably should have won a couple more...especially in '62.)

Scoring titles? Wilt with a 7-0 edge (and the FOUR highest seasons in NBA history.)

Assist titles" Wilt with a 1-0 edge (and Chamberlain finished THIRD in another season. Hell, Wilt had SEVERAL seasons with higher apg...and remember, he played in four less seasons.)

FG% titles? Wilt with a 9-0 edge. (and Wilt has the two highest in NBA history, and three of the top-5)

Rebounding titles? Wilt with an 11-2 edge. (Wilt was, by far-and-away, the greatest rebounder of all-time. Meanwhile, Hakeem had a season in which his own teammate outrebounded him.)

And everyone knows that Wilt was the game's greatest shot-blocker. Even adjusting for pace, Wilt would have probably blocked 7-8 shots per game in the 80's. We KNOW that he had a RECORDED game of 23 blocks, and another game in which the scorekeeper lost count at 25.)

Defensively, Wilt was arguably the second greatest defensive player in NBA history...with only Russell being greater.

Oh, and how many "Hakeem" RULES did the NBA institute during Olajuwon's career. We KNOW that the NBA legislated SEVERAL "anti-Wilt" RULES in HIS career.

Finally... how about the NBA RECORD BOOK. How many NBA Records does Hakeem hold? We KNOW that Chamberlain holds around 130.

[necya]

Sampson guarded him, not Hakeem, watch the tapes, fool.

:oldlol: he posted this like 10 times in the last 3 months...and i had to answer the same thing you did...but he just can't hear the truth.

i could have quoted Fatal's post as he was right, you are so biased jlauber.
the only way you use to judge players is by stats, a good one to propulse your Wilt.

ah yeah this so important to have rebounding titles, i have waiting Hakeem got one to say "wow he is a great rebounder". you look stupid talking about bball like that.

damn, you put too much emphasis on records put in a sport who had only 10 years of age in his professionnal history.
Pele in soccer has scored more than 100 goals in a season, todays players would need 4 seasons to do that...

[magnax1]

Pretty easily Kareem. Hakeem was the better defender, but pretty much anything else I can think of Kareem was better at, and on top of that he had the second greatest longevity of anyone.
Seems kind of simple, but what else really needs to be said? This is sort of obvious to me. Even if you want to argue that Hakeem was better at his best, it's not by much, and Kareem still had an advantage in longevity by a massive amount.

[jlauber]

:oldlol: he posted this like 10 times in the last 3 months...and i had to answer the same thing you did...but he just can't hear the truth.

i could have quoted Fatal's post as he was right, you are so biased jlauber.
the only way you use to judge players is by stats, a good one to propulse your Wilt.

ah yeah this so important to have rebounding titles, i have waiting Hakeem got one to say "wow he is a great rebounder". you look stupid talking about bball like that.

damn, you put too much emphasis on records put in a sport who had only 10 years of age in his professionnal history.
Pele in soccer has scored more than 100 goals in a season, todays players would need 4 seasons to do that...


First of all, basketball TODAY, is essentially the same game that was played in 1960. Yes, the lane is wider, but it had ZERO effect on Chamberlain. The year the NBA widened the lane to what it is TODAY, an ILL Wilt was averaging nearly 40 ppg at mid-season, and before his trade to Philly. And the very next year after that he led the NBA in scoring at 33.5 ppg AND set a then-record FG% mark of .540 (which HE would break two more times.) BTW, Wilt had EIGHT 60+ point games after the widening of the lane, which is THREE more than either MJ or Kobe had in their entire careers. And it was only because of his coaches and personnel that he did not have more.

And to say that the GAME was only TEN years old just how ignorant a poster you are. The NBA was formed in 1946, and Wilt was DOMINATING the NBA and setting records even into his LAST season, in 1972-73, which, in itself was over TWENTY-FIVE years later. But, PROFESSIONAL basketball had been around since the early 1920's. And COLLEGES were playing basketball as far back as the 1890's. Here again, the game was played on the same size courts, with the same size rims, with roughly the same size ball, for DECADES.

Of course the "anti-Wilt" posters like yourself and Fatal will come up with ANY kind of garbage in a desperate attempt to disparage what Chamberlain accomplished. You laugh at Wilt's rebounding records. Why? Because Hakeem could only win TWO titles in 18 seasons, and Kareem was even worse with ONE in 20 years. Those two were routinely outrebounded by much smaller players. Hell, Hakeem's TEAMMATE, the 6-6 Charles Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR rpg in the '97 season. As for Kareem, he was badlu outrebounded by a GUARD on his OWN team, in SEVERAL seasons, and post-seasons.

In Wilt's LAST NBA season, he LED the NBA (for the ELEVENTH time), in a league that Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Kareem, Hayes, Unseld, Silas, and others. Some of those guys would go on to lead the league AFTER Wilt, too. BUT, NEVER WITH Wilt. And his 18.6 rpg, which was his second WORST mark of his career, would be the highest mark for some 20 years, until Rodman's 18.7 rpg. BUT, Wilt also averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games that year...in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg. Keep in mind this was a Wilt who was in the twi-light of his career, and playing on a surgically repaired knee. A 36 year old Wilt who was nowhere near a PEAK Chamberlain.

And for those that just can't accept Wilt's scoring marks...the highest scoring season in the Wilt-era, by a player other than Wilt, was Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg season in 66-67 (on .451 shooting.) And even Barry "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him have the scoring title that season. EVERYONE in the NBA at the time KNEW that Wilt could score 40+ ANYTIME he set his mind on it. And he proved it by having the HIGH game that season, of 58 points (on 26-34 shooting.) In fact, Wilt had the HIGH game every year after that into the 68-69 season, despite hardly shooting the ball during the course of the season.

I have mentioned this story many times, but in the 68-69 season, Wilt's COACH had basically told Chamberlain to sacrifice HIS scoring so that Baylor could keep shooting. Well, it got so bad that SI was set to run a story claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Wilt got wind of the story, and the night before it hit the newsstands, he hung a 60 point game on 6-10 Connie Dierking. And he followed that up a few days later with a 66 point game against 6-11 Jim Fox. BTW, that 66 point game came on 29-35 shooting, which is by far the highest FG% in a 60+ point game. I mentioned those two players for a reason, and I will get back to them later. Wilt went on a rampage for seventeen straight games that year, averaging 32 ppg in those game. He even hung a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest game against Russell since his 46 point game on him in the last game of the '66 ECF's.

And the very next season (69-70), Wilt's new COACH, Joe Mullaney, asked Chamberlin to become more involved in the offense. In his first nine games he was averaging 32.2 ppg, and even crushed rookie Kareem in one of them. Here was Chamberlain, in his ELEVENTH season, PROVING that he could STILL lead the NBA in scoring. However, he shredded his knee in that ninth game ( a game in which he had just scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting BTW), and virtually ALL medical opinion said that his season was done (Baylor had the same injury a few years before, and he was out the entire season afterwards.) There was even doubt in the medical community that a 7-1 300 lb man would ever play again. Well, Wilt DID comeback...WAY ahead of schedule, and to surprise of the entire medical community. He was never quite the same, but still, he put up a the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history that same season (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625), including a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting.) He would also battle a prime Kareem to a statistical draw the very next season, holding a Kareem, who had averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting during the season, to 25 ppg on .481 shooting (while scoring 22 ppg on .489 himself, and outrebounding Kareem, per game, 19-17.)

To be continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Now, we have a couple of "bridges" here (actually there were many), but for the sake of this topic, we only need two. One was Rick Barry, who averaged 35.6 ppg on .451 shooting in 66-67. In the 75-76 season (and a few seasons after Wilt had retired), Barry finished with a 30.6 ppg average on .464 shooting. BTW, it was slightly better than Kareem's 30.0 ppg season...which would be Kareem's last 30 ppg season. So, obviously, the game had not changed AT ALL, from 67 to 75 (although overall FGAs were down a little.) In any case, and as we know, Kareem was still hanging 40+ point games on HAKEEM in the mid-80's. And ONE MORE TIME...it was HAKEEM who was guarding Kareem in TWO of Abdul-Jabbar's 40 point games (one in '85 and the other in '86.) A 37 and 38 year old Kareem just abusing a 23 year old Hakeem. And when Kareem was 23 he was leading the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg (on .577 shooting), and winning the regular season AND Finals MVPs.

Kareem is obviously the best example of a "bridge." He played for nearly FOUR decades (one year short of the 89-90 season.) And he played FOUR seasons in the Wilt-era. For those that somehow believe Kareem to be a greater player than Wilt, how can they explain these numbers? I mentioned Wilt's 60 and 66 point games against Dierking and Fox. Well, Kareem faced those two many times, himself, including the very next season after Wilt had just annihilated those guys. Where are HIS 60+ point games against them. Kareem also faced HOFers Reed and Bellamy. Chamberlain had THREE 50+ point games against Reed with a high of 58, and he had THREE 60+ point games against Bellamy, with a high of 73 (!). Kareem faced those two guys near the ends of their careers, and where are his 58 and 73 point games against them...even when they were washed up? Kareem also faced HOFer Nate Thurmond 61 times. His HIGH game against Thurmond was only 36 points. A PRIME Wilt had a 45 point game against Nate (outscoring him 45-13), as well as several 30+ point games. Unfortunately, the "scoring" Wilt only faced Nate a handful of times. Still, even in a season in which he dramatically cut back his shooting (66-67) there was an early season game against Nate, in which Wilt's coach asked Chamberlain at the half, to take it to Nate in the second half. Chamberlain crushed Thurmond in that second half with 24 points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game. Of course everyone here by now knows that Wilt had 24 games of 40+ against Russell, including FIVE of 50+ and with a HIGH of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) CLEARLY, a PRIME Wilt could hang 40+ on ANYONE.

Here is another one...once again, Kareem played four years in the Wilt-era. Just taking ONE season together, in 71-72, Wilt had TWO 30-30 games (one of them was a 31-32 game against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier BTW)...in a year in which he hardly shot the ball. Why is that important? Because Kareem only had ONE 30-30 game in his ENTIRE 20 year career, and it came AFTER Wilt retired. Of course, not only did Wilt have 103 30-30 games in his NBA career (which is 75 more than all of the rest of the NBA...COMBINED)...he also had 55 40-30 games (and of course, Kareem NEVER even close to achieving that even ONCE.) AND, Wilt had 17 40-30 games just against Russell alone, including a 44-43 game.

Chamberlain also shot WAY over the LEAGUE AVERAGE his ENTIRE career. In his 50 ppg season, he was 80 points above the league average. In his 45 ppg season, he was 87 points above the league average. In his 33.5 season, he was 107 points above the league average. But, when he became his most efficient, he had TWO seasons of outshooting the league average by margins of .244 and .271...which are just LIGHT YEARS ahead of ANY other player in NBA history. He also finished .157 and .162 ahead of his nearest competitor in those two years...which again, is on the other side of the galaxy in comparison to any other leader in that category.

Blocked shots? Wilt had a game in the 68-69 season in which he blocked 23 shots. Give me a game in which Kareem had that many? In fact, Wilt had a game against KAREEM's Bucks in the '72 playoffs in which he blocked 11 shots (FIVE of them on Kareem BTW.) This from a 35 year old, 300 lb man playing on a surgically repaired knee. My god, Wilt was universally acknowledged as the best shot-blocker in the NBA in the years in which he played with Kareem...and this was a Wilt far removed from his prime (when he was putting up SEASONS of 10+ bpg.)

But, here again, Kareem PLAYED in the Wilt-era, and against MANY of the centers that Wilt faced for the entire decade of the 60's. Yet he was nowhere NEAR as dominant as a PRIME Wilt was. BUT, an aged Kareem, in the mid-to-late 80's could hang 40 + on players like Hakeem and Ewing (who he just murdered in that game...holding Ewing to nine points on 3-17 shooting.) Kareem DOMINATED Hakeem in the mid-80's...a Hakeem that would be considered the best center of the 90's, and who held his own against s Shaq that would dominate the 00's. And one more time...a way-over-the-hill Kareem hung a 46 point game on Hakeem (on 70% shooting in only 37 minutes), while a PRIME Shaq in the '99 playoffs against a washed-up Hakeem had his highest career game against Olajuwon of 37 points.

So, forget the numbers (as staggering as they), and just take a look at how much more DOMINANT Wilt was to his peers than ANY other player in NBA history. It is truly laughable that ANYONE would suggest that Hakeem would be anywhere near the player a PRIME Chamberlain was.

But IF you take a close look at the RECORD BOOK, there is page-after-page with WILT's NAME plastered all over it. And in many cases Wilt holds the NEXT mark as well. And the fact is, the majority of Chamberlain's records will never be approached, much less broken. And there were RULES put in place STRICTLY aimed at Wilt. How many RULES were put in place to curtail the "dominance" of Hakeem?

Wilt was a FAR greater player than Hakeem. There is simply no criteria that exists that disproves that fact.

[KingBeasley08]

^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true

[lakers_forever]

Anyone who claim Hakeem was greater than Kareem, has no clue about the history of the game. How long was Olajuwon considered the best player in the world? One season? Maybe two? Kareem was the best player in the NBA during the whole 70's and was still amazing as an old man in the 80's. He had a better peak, prime and longevity (Hakeem stopped being a real dominant player at 34. A 39 year old Kareem was better offensively than a 34 year old Hakeem).

When Olajuwon was 27,28, and 29 years old,when players are near (or in) their prime, he could not even make it to the ALL NBA first team. That did not happen with the 4 best centers ever: Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq.
This is pure revisionism. No one was saying Olajuwon was the great center ever in 1995. No one can seriously claim Olajuwon has a case to be considered the best player ever, like Kareem does.

[jlauber]

^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true

Thanks for responding.

[BlackJoker23]

http://i.imgur.com/ZXhAZ.jpg

[BlackJoker23]

http://i.imgur.com/aus3q.jpg

[creepingdeath]

Shaqattack will say Shaq is greater than either of them, while lauber will say Chamberlain > Shaq. 5 pages of arguments will happen between each other, then KBlaze will chime in and write a thesis about how we can't conclusively prove that each center is better, lamenting on the state of the forum and how its gone down from the early 2000s.

:D
:roll:

Funny thing is, though: all of those posters might be biased (like everyone else), but they are still >>>>>>>>> 99% of ISH.

[jstern]

^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true
It was 2,049 words. And the last post was 1,095 words long, and he wrote it in 4 minutes. That's pretty impressive.

[JellyBean]

Kareem.. without a doubt. Kareem could play at both ends of the floor. He was a good defender and a scoring machine.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Anyone who claim Hakeem was greater than Olajuwon.
:oldlol:

[lakers_forever]

:oldlol:

:D A typo does not invalidate the rest of my argument.

[jlauber]

Kareem was a MUCH better scorer. A MUCH more efficient SHOOTER. And a MUCH better passer. In their primes, they were about equal in terms of rebounding and defense.

Then, you can just take a look at the rest of their resumes...

Kareem with a 6-1 edge in MVPs, and a 6-2 edge in rings. And he scored the most points in NBA history.

Olajuwon is WELL BEHIND Kareem using almost any intelligent criteria.

[G.O.A.T]

It was 2,049 words. And the last post was 1,095 words long, and he wrote it in 4 minutes. That's pretty impressive.

I hate to spoil the suspense, but he cuts and pastes the same 50-100 responses all the time.

Also, there is no Santa or Slash

[magnax1]

I hate to spoil the suspense, but he cuts and pastes the same 50-100 responses all the time.

Also, there is no Santa or Slash
Last southpark definitely proved there is a slash...

[Round Mound]

Id go with Kareem but Hakeem is the Best CF I ever saw...Better than Duncan and Hayes

[jlauber]

Hakeem gets underrated?

:wtf:

THE most under-rated player on this forum is Russell. And Wilt is not far behind him in that category, either.

[RainierBeachPoet]

Kareem had more longevity, but I will take prime Hakeem over Kareem. Prime Hakeem was a monster and a far superior player than he was when younger.

i saw both of them in their primes and kareem's prime--mid to late 70s-- was better than hakeem's prime

kareem was simply dominant in the mid 70s-- defensively too

it's too bad that most people here had not seen kareem in his priime and just rely on stats or his last years in the mid 80s

you would all have a much different opinion

[jlauber]

i saw both of them in their primes and kareem's prime--mid to late 70s-- was better than hakeem's prime

kareem was simply dominant in the mid 70s-- defensively too

it's too bad that most people here had not seen kareem in his priime and just rely on stats or his last years in the mid 80s

you would all have a much different opinion

I don't recall Hakeem ever averaging 34.8 ppg in a season, nor 16.9 rpg in a season, nor .604 from the floor, nor 5.4 apg.

Kareem had FOUR seasons of over 30 ppg. He had FOUR seasons of over 16 rpg. He had THREE seasons of over 5 apg. NONE of which Hakeem EVER achieved in a single season. And Hakeem's HIGH FG% season was .538. Kareem managed to better that in 15 of his seasons.

It is just unfathomable that anyone could possibly claim that Hakeem's peak was greater than Kareem's.

[Mr. Jabbar]

i hope this is a joke thread

[PHILA]

Of course for many it could depend on if we are comparing their careers or their respective primes.Either way, it isn't close.

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

maybe CAJ was more dominant but he couldn't do half of things Hakeem could.
with CAJ it was same boring s@%t all over again but i only watched him in late '80,maybe he could dribble or shoot from the range

[IGOTGAME]

Either way, it isn't close.

this. Kareem is so underrated on this board.

[G.O.A.T]

maybe CAJ was more dominant but he couldn't do half of things Hakeem could.
with CAJ it was same boring s@%t all over again but i only watched him in late '80,maybe he could dribble or shoot from the range

this is a new one. Careem? Caream? Cream?

Further evidence that the ignorant always identify themselves with their inability to spell the names of the players they critique.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Prime KAJ was a 30 pt/14 reb/4 ast/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player and upped that to like 33/15/4/57% in the playoffs. Hakeem isn't even close. Stop overrating him.

[Gotterdammerung]

this is a new one. Careem? Caream? Cream? Further evidence that the ignorant always identify themselves with their inability to spell the names of the players they critique.
Perhaps he heard the old joke too many times:

Q: Why don't the Lakers have coffee anymore?
A: Cause Kareem left!
:hammerhead:

[Fatal9]

Either way, it isn't close.
Peak to peak, '93-'95 Hakeem is there with anyone. Maybe not better but lol @ "it isn't close".

[IGOTGAME]

Peak to peak, '93-'95 Hakeem is there with anyone. Maybe not better but lol @ "it isn't close".

he really isn't. And yes, it isn't close. It is a sizable difference, no cogent argument can be made for Hakeem.

[millwad]

Prime KAJ was a 30 pt/14 reb/4 ast/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player and upped that to like 33/15/4/57% in the playoffs. Hakeem isn't even close. Stop overrating him.




Hakeem isn't close?
It wasn't Hakeem's fault that it was Kareem and not him that first played with Oscar Robertson and Dandridge when he won his first chip, and then had the benifit to play with the best PG by all-time and the prime Worthy. It's not even funny how much better supporting cast Kareem had, he had 10 years playing beside the best point guard EVER!

Hakeem had his best years blown away while playing with scrubs and when he finally won he did it first with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Robert Horry and the year after he got a non-prime but still good Drexler with trading away Otis Thorpe.

Kareem won while with the Bucks playing with Dandridge and Robertson and then he didn't win smack for 9 years until Magic was drafted and before that he still had good players by his side like Wilkes, Dantley, Nixon, Goodrich, Allen etc..

When Kareem won with the Lakers he had prime Magic who is the best PG ever, Wilkes at the beginning of his stint with great scoring abilities, after 83 had on of the best SF's ever in Worthy by his side and with that he had great role players like Cooper and Scott by his side.

Kareem had so much better players by his side that it's not even funny, of course he won alot more than Hakeem, if not it would just be silly..

And talking about playoffs, Hakeem still had better playoff-stats. Hakeem averaged more points per game than any center ever (including Wilt, Shaq and Kareem) in the playoffs. His other stats are also superior to Kareem's in the playoffs.

Kareem averaged:
Points: 24.3/game
Rebounds: 10.5/game
Assists: 3.2/game

Hakeem averaged:
Points: 25.9/game
Rebounds: 11.2/game
Assists: 3.2/game

And Hakeem also averaged more steals and blocks in the playoffs..

With this said I'm not trying to say that Hakeem is better than Kareem, I'm just saying that some of you are taking alot away from Hakeem, it's closer than many of you are trying to imply.

[Harison]

Prime KAJ was a 30 pt/14 reb/4 ast/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player and upped that to like 33/15/4/57% in the playoffs. Hakeem isn't even close. Stop overrating him.
Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise. Even with higher pace Kareem's best was similar or worse than Dream's best in the Playoffs. Speaking of which, Kareem had pretty memorable meltdowns, and didnt had All-time great performance to remember. How sophomore Dream beat Showtime Lakers was more impressive than Kareem's best, and thats before getting to '94 Championship. Give Hakeem Oscar and super stacked Lakers with Magic, and he would probably have more rings than Kareem.

Above I mentioned scoring and rebounding (hardly any advantage for Kareem adjusting pace), how about defense? Hakeem was clearly better, and I mean clearly.

Kareem is ranked higher due to accolades and longevity, which is perfectly fine. But if I would have to choose prime Kareem or Hakeem, I'm betting on Dream.

[IGOTGAME]

Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise. Even with higher pace Kareem's best was similar or worse than Dream's best in the Playoffs. Speaking of which, Kareem had pretty memorable meltdowns, and didnt had All-time great performance to remember. How sophomore Dream beat Showtime Lakers was more impressive than Kareem's best, and thats before getting to '94 Championship. Give Hakeem Oscar and super stacked Lakers with Magic, and he would probably have more rings than Kareem.

Above I mentioned scoring and rebounding (hardly any advantage for Kareem adjusting pace), how about defense? Hakeem was clearly better, and I mean clearly.

Kareem is ranked higher due to accolades and longevity, which is perfectly fine. But if I would have to choose prime Kareem or Hakeem, I'm betting on Dream.

What exactly is your argument? that "Kareem's best was similar or worst" than Hakeems best in the playoffs? That's it.

Kareem won 6 regular season MVP awards. The is an unprecedented amount of dominance. You can adjust for pace all you want, Kareem was simple considered just better than everyone else in the league.

Hakeem wasnt considered better than the other great centers until the season he won titles. Lets not retroactively act like he was considered better than David Robinson because of what happen in that 1 series.

[Fatal9]

Hakeem had his best years blown away while playing with scrubs and when he finally won he did it first with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Robert Horry and the year after he got a non-prime but still good Drexler with trading away Otis Thorpe.
Uh...and so were Kareem's after about '74 and even then many of the years where it looked like he could take his cast to a championship, his "second option" usually got hurt in or before the playoffs (Oscar in '72, Lucius Allen in '74, Lucius Allen and others in '77). Hakeem had it rough after '86 too though, things looked so promising but injuries and drugs killed what was a very talented core.

[millwad]

Uh...and so were Kareem's after about '74 and even then many of the years where it looked like he could take his cast to a championship, his "second option" usually got hurt in or before the playoffs (Oscar in '72, Lucius Allen in '74, Lucius Allen and others in '77). Hakeem had it rough after '86 too though, things looked so promising but injuries and drugs killed what was a very talented core.

What I said was that Kareem had amazingly more talent on his teams, even during those years he didn't win smack than Hakeem did. Talentwise there are teams he played for that didn't do any noise at all that had more talent in them than Hakeem had in 94, that's a fact.

In some of those years you mention I think he had just as good or better players by his side than Hakeem had in 94 and 95. I'm not gonna mention his Lakers-period since everyone knows that he played with prime Magic and prime Worthy..

[Harison]

What exactly is your argument? that "Kareem's best was similar or worst" than Hakeems best in the playoffs? That's it.

How Kareem's best Playoffs 34.6/17.7/4.1 on higher pace is better than Dream's 37.5/16.8/1.8? How many All-time great Kareem series do you remember? Not so many, none of them more memorable than Dream's. I could remind you of Kareem epic meltdowns, how many do you know by Dream?



Kareem won 6 regular season MVP awards. The is an unprecedented amount of dominance. You can adjust for pace all you want, Kareem was simple considered just better than everyone else in the league.
Kareem was winning over Jerry West, old Wilt, losing to Dave Cowens, McAdoo, etc. Not exactly super stacked competition, isnt? Plus MVP voting is usually tied to better record, better team = more MVPs for its star player.

Hakeem was fighting for MVP with prime Larry Bird, prime Magic, prime Jordan, Malone, DRob, young Shaq, etc. and did it with a crap team. No love from voters.

As I said, swap those players, and Dream would have as much if not more MVPs, rings, and a couple of extra DPOYs as well.



Hakeem wasnt considered better than the other great centers until the season he won titles. Lets not retroactively act like he was considered better than David Robinson because of what happen in that 1 series.
DRob was fantastic player, better than Duncan, but Playoffs really harmed Robinsons image. If Kareem didnt had super stacked Lakers with Magic along, how we would view Kareem today? Losing as 1st seed to 8th seed, plenty of other upsets, getting outplayed by direct competitors. Thats not exactly stellar resume.

[Fatal9]

What I said was that Kareem had amazingly more talent on his teams, even during those years he didn't win smack than Hakeem did. Talentwise there are teams he played for that didn't do any noise at all that had more talent in them than Hakeem had in 94, that's a fact.
Kareem got those talented teams when he was 33, and also when the league was getting stronger at the top (particularly the East). He was out of his prime by '81. It's like old Hakeem getting Barkley, Drexler and later Pippen (though I realize they were old, but still great players), and then acting like Hakeem had that sort of talent to play with in his prime (KAJ made most of the talent that surrounded him on those Laker teams because of his crazy longevity). His mid-20s-late-20s were spent playing on very flawed teams or he had unfortunate circumstance of key injuries to his supporting cast (mainly the second best player on his teams) at the absolute worst time (playoffs). You can't just compare a supporting cast's talent by the numbers and then translate that across eras (too different distribution of talent league-wide across the eras), the '94 team for example is absolutely not good enough to beat the 80s Celtics and maybe even the early 80s Sixer teams.


How Kareem's best Playoffs 34.6/17.7/4.1 on higher pace is better than Dream's 37.5/16.8/1.8?
KAJ's numbers are over 11 games. Hakeem's numbers are over 4 games. KAJ's team in the playoffs also had a pace factor of only 103.6 which is basically around what a lot of teams were at in the regular season during the late 80s.


I could remind you of Kareem epic meltdowns, how many do you know by Dream?
Outside of '73, I fail to see these "epic meltdowns". I mean yea Moses outplayed him when he was like 35 but Hakeem looked even more ordinary at that age (see Sonics series in '96 for example). You don't even need to convince me that Hakeem belongs in the discussion (prime vs. prime) because I think Hakeem is there with anyone, but at least argue it better (and more fairly) than this.


Losing as 1st seed to 8th seed, plenty of other upsets, getting outplayed by direct competitors.
When did this happen?

[millwad]

Kareem got those talented teams when he was 33, and also when the league was getting stronger at the top (particularly the East). He was out of his prime by '81. It's like old Hakeem getting Barkley, Drexler and later Pippen (though I realize they were old, but still great players), and then acting like Hakeem had that sort of talent to play with in his prime (KAJ made most of the talent that surrounded him on those Laker teams because of his crazy longevity). His mid-20s-late-20s were spent playing on very flawed teams or he had unfortunate circumstance of key injuries to his supporting cast (mainly the second best player on his teams) at the absolute worst time (playoffs). You can't just compare a supporting cast's talent by the numbers and then translate that across eras (too different distribution of talent league-wide across the eras), the '94 team for example is absolutely not good enough to beat the 80s Celtics and maybe even the early 80s Sixer teams.


Outside of '73, I fail to see these "epic meltdowns". I mean yea Moses outplayed him when he was like 35 but Hakeem looked even more ordinary at that age (see Sonics series in '96 for example). You don't even need to convince me that Hakeem belongs in the discussion (prime vs. prime) because I think Hakeem is there with anyone, but at least argue it better (and more fairly) than this.


It's a lie to say that Kareem got the talented teams when he was 33 and I'm not really gonna argue player by player he's played with, the only thing I'm saying is that Kareem had extremely more talented players around him than Hakeem did.

And seriously, don't get silly now, are you seriously gonna compare prime Magic Johnson, the best point guard by all time and prime Worthy who's one of the best SF by all-time with a non-prime Drexler and a non-prime Barkley?

Drexler wasn't even in his prime when he joined the Rockets and Barkley could barely walk at that time..

It's not a debate really, Kareem had the benifit of playing with great players, greater player than Hakeem ever had the opportunity to play with. Even during the years Kareem didn't win a thing he had greater players than Hakeem had during his first and 2nd championship-runs.

Bottom line, put Hakeem in Kareem's shoes and I don't doubt him winning that much..

[OldSchoolBBall]

Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise.

Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.

[millwad]

Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.

Prime Hakeem faced better opponets than prime Kareem did..
Hakeem has better playoffstats, stop overrating Kareem..

[OldSchoolBBall]

Prime Hakeem faced better opponets than prime Kareem did..
Hakeem has better playoffstats, stop overrating Kareem..

It's clear that you've never even looked at KAJ's playoff stats. :oldlol: Here are his four best postseasons of >1 series:

35/17/4/4/57% FG/61% TS
35/18/4/4/61% FG/65% TS
32/16/5/4/56% FG/58% TS
32/12/3/4/57% FG/61% TS

Now here are Hakeem's:

33/10/5/3/53% FG/56% TS
29/11/4/4/52% FG/57% TS
29/11/3/4/62% FG/66% TS
26/14/5/5/52% FG/57% TS

Hakeem is no slouch, but KAJ is superior, even when you drop the rebounding by ~2-3 per game for pace depending on the year.

[Harison]

Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.
Higher pace = more possessions = more shots and rebounds for star player, if they choose to. Common sense.

Prime Kareem pretty much never had above 30+ PPG, 3 seasons from sophomore till 25, and once 30.0 at 27 yrs. All other prime years Kareem was 24-27 PPG scorer, no idea from where you took 32 pt average. His avg during prime years was ~27, adjust pace, and it will be lower.

Once again, taking eras in consideration, Kareem barely had any advantage in scoring and rebounding. But game doesnt end there - Hakeem was better and more ruthless Playoffs performer, and was obviously better defender. So no, if anyone picks prime Dream over Kareem, he isnt crazy.

[millwad]

It's clear that you've never even looked at KAJ's playoff stats. :oldlol: Here are his four best postseasons of >1 series:

35/17/4/4/57% FG/61% TS
35/18/4/4/61% FG/65% TS
32/16/5/4/56% FG/58% TS
32/12/3/4/57% FG/61% TS

Now here are Hakeem's:

33/10/5/3/53% FG/56% TS
29/11/4/4/52% FG/57% TS
29/11/3/4/62% FG/66% TS
26/14/5/5/52% FG/57% TS

Hakeem is no slouch, but KAJ is superior, even when you drop the rebounding by ~2-3 per game for pace depending on the year.

Hakeem has better average in the playoffs than Kareem careerwise, don't write that crap.

As matter of fact, Hakeem has the highest points per game average in the playoffs for any center by all-time, Kareem included.

Kareem in the playoffs averaged;

24.3 ppg, 10.5 rebounds, 3.2 assists

Hakeem in the playoffs averaged:

25.9 ppg, 11.2 rebounds, 3.2 assists

So Hakeem averaged more in points, grabbed more rebounds, averaged the same amount of assists and he hade more steals per game and blocks per game than Kareem.

Bottom line, Hakeem had better stats in the playoffs as an average than Kareem, suck it up. And lets not forget that Hakeem did it vs tougher opponents, the amount of great centers Hakeem faced on daily basis wasn't the same case for Jabbar.

I honestly think people are overrating Kareem because of his stats in the regular season and the amount of championships he won, lets not forget that the 70's wasn't the best of eras and lets not forget that Kareem played with much greatest teammates than Hakeem did.

Kareem has 2 finals MVP:s, he won it all 6 times, lets not forget how great teammates he had..

[BlackJoker23]

lol at dickwad. the guy is stupid as fucck. how many playoff games did kareem play after he was past his prime? now how many did hakeem play past his prime? those games in the late 80s brought kareems averages down unlike hakeem who was missing the playoffs or going fishing after a 1st round exit.

compare their number up to a certain age. probably 34 cause hakeem was done after that.

[colts19]

Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.

This
OldSchoolBBall, we have found something we agree on.

[millwad]

lol at dickwad. the guy is stupid as fucck. how many playoff games did kareem play after he was past his prime? now how many did hakeem play past his prime? those games in the late 80s brought kareems averages down unlike hakeem who was missing the playoffs or going fishing after a 1st round exit.

compare their number up to a certain age. probably 34 cause hakeem was done after that.

Wow, all the insults and still you just made yourself look like a fool.. If we're gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem has a major advantage, after the age of 34 Hakeem averaged 13.1 points per game in the playoffs compared to Kareem's 20.4 points per game.

Bottom line, if we're just gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem's stats are even more superior to Kareem's in the playoffs..

Who's the dick now?

[BlackJoker23]

Wow, all the insults and still you just made yourself look like a fool.. If we're gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem has a major advantage, after the age of 34 Hakeem averaged 13.1 points per game in the playoffs compared to Kareem's 20.4 points per game.

Bottom line, if we're just gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem's stats are even more superior to Kareem's in the playoffs..

Who's the dick now?
get your facts straight.

kareem up until 34 which is 81-82 for him averaged 29/15/4/2 on 53.2% shooting. hakeem up until 34 which is 96-97 for him averaged 27/12/3/3 on 53.5% shooting.

hakeem's stats are better? you sure about that?

[millwad]

get your facts straight.

kareem up until 34 which is 81-82 for him averaged 29/15/4/2 on 53.2% shooting. hakeem up until 34 which is 96-97 for him averaged 27/12/3/3 on 53.5% shooting.

hakeem's stats are better? you sure about that?

My bad, I miscalculated it but you still got Hakeem's scoring wrong, he would have had averaged 28 a game but still, this is a retarded argument by your side. Careerwise Hakeem had better stats in the playoffs, if there would be something called best scoring stats to the age of 34 for all the centers in the NBA, yeah, then your beloved Kareem would have won... Suck it up.

And even if you want to stick with that bs you're retarded, congratulations, you just took away one of his two Finals MVPs, making him having the half of Hakeem's finals mvp.. In the process of you trying to make Kareem look so great you took away 7 of his all-star appearances and also taking away half of his championship rings, WELL DONE, SIR!

[Simple Jack]

Since when did Kareem NOT have epic playoff performances? Someone mentioned it up top and no one seemed to respond. This is simply not true.

[bizil]

The thing that is scary about Kareem is how long he was an All Star caliber player. People talk about Kareem's skyhook,but in his prime Kareem could do it all. He was very agile, had a face up J, could drop dimes, and of course rebound and D up. But at the same time I feel Hakeem is the most talented Center all around to ever lace them up. As far as dominant scoring goes hell Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Moses, Ewing, and Robinson were all dominant scorers. But's it's the all around skills of Hakeem, Kareem, and Robinson that make them unique.

[Psileas]

lol at dickwad. the guy is stupid as fucck. how many playoff games did kareem play after he was past his prime? now how many did hakeem play past his prime? those games in the late 80s brought kareems averages down unlike hakeem who was missing the playoffs or going fishing after a 1st round exit.

compare their number up to a certain age. probably 34 cause hakeem was done after that.

Actually, we don't even need to go to 34. Give Hakeem his whole playoff career stats, up to the age of 39, then take Kareem's stats up to the same age:

Hakeem: 25.9/11.2/3.2
Kareem: 27.3/12.0/3.8

Of course, this is already doing Hakeem a favor, since he only played in 14 playoff games between the ages of 35 and 39, while Kareem played in 83...


Kareem has 2 finals MVP:s, he won it all 6 times, lets not forget how great teammates he had..

He should have won it 3 times. He was clearly more dominant than Magic in 1980, and it took a major injury and a marginal 4-3 voting result to deprive him of this. He was also the pretty much undisputed best player of the 1974 Finals, losing the MVP to Havlicek only because the Celtics won in Game 7.

[millwad]

Actually, we don't even need to go to 34. Give Hakeem his whole playoff career stats, up to the age of 39, then take Kareem's stats up to the same age:

Hakeem: 25.9/11.2/3.2
Kareem: 27.3/12.0/3.8

Of course, this is already doing Hakeem a favor, since he only played in 14 playoff games between the ages of 35 and 39, while Kareem played in 83...



He should have won it 3 times. He was clearly more dominant than Magic in 1980, and it took a major injury and a marginal 4-3 voting result to deprive him of this. He was also the pretty much undisputed best player of the 1974 Finals, losing the MVP to Havlicek only because the Celtics won in Game 7.


Haha, now you're getting pathetic, first of all you miscalculated Kareem's scoring and if we're gonna take Hakeem's whole playoff career plus his downfall then we sure as hell are going to take Kareem's whole career playoff plus his downfall. You basically compared Hakeem's whole playoff-career with his downfall to Kareem's playoff career minus his major downfall, seriously..

Just face it, Hakeem has the highest scoring average among all the centers in the NBA in the playoffs and his average is superior to Kareem's when it comes to scoring, rebounding, shotblocking, stealing and a tie when it comes to assists.

And cut the crap about shoulda, woulda and coulda, Magic won the MVP in 1980, end of story. And Havlicek won it it because his team won and he was beasting, end of story.

That's like saying that Hakeem should have won the finals mvp in 86 because he was the best player on the court, he didn't win it because his team lost in 6 games but he still beasted the celtics, end of story.

Hakeem could have won the title a couple of times after 86 if Sampson didn't get injured. Well, he got injured, end of story.

And yeah, Hakeem COULD have won damn much more if he had the opportunity to play with the best point guard ever and a prime HOF SF... at the same time, but he didn't, end of story..

Is it really that hard for you guys to admit the fact that Hakeem had a better average in the playoffs compared to Kareem? And it wasn't just scoring, it was also rebounding, blocked shots and steals..

[Psileas]

Haha, now you're getting pathetic, first of all you miscalculated Kareem's scoring and if we're gonna take Hakeem's whole playoff career plus his downfall then we sure as hell are going to take Kareem's whole career playoff plus his downfall. You basically compared Hakeem's whole playoff-career with his downfall to Kareem's playoff career minus his major downfall, seriously..

Just face it, Hakeem has the highest scoring average among all the centers in the NBA in the playoffs and his average is superior to Kareem's when it comes to scoring, rebounding, shotblocking, stealing and a tie when it comes to assists.

And cut the crap about shoulda, woulda and coulda, Magic won the MVP in 1980, end of story. And Havlicek won it it because his team won and he was beasting, end of story.

That's like saying that Hakeem should have won the finals mvp in 86 because he was the best player on the court, he didn't win it because his team lost in 6 games but he still beasted the celtics, end of story.

Hakeem could have won the title a couple of times after 86 if Sampson didn't get injured. Well, he got injured, end of story.

And yeah, Hakeem COULD have won damn much more if he had the opportunity to play with the best point guard ever and a prime HOF SF... at the same time, but he didn't, end of story..

Is it really that hard for you guys to admit the fact that Hakeem had a better average in the playoffs compared to Kareem? And it wasn't just scoring, it was also rebounding, blocked shots and steals..

It's funny how you're suddenly calling me "pathetic" because of using the same type of arguments that you use (aka, assumptions), and not only this, I'm using assumptions which were much closer to being realized than yours. I'm claiming that Kareem's 2 Finals' MVP's did not do him justice and explain how close he got to a couple more. What you do during the whole thread, on the other hand, is whining about Hakeem having worse teammates and make baseless assumptions about much he'd win if he'd be teammed with Magic, Worthy, etc. I guess all these assumptions are more realistic than Kareem not getting injured and winning a single game more... Well, for one, Kareem was already 32-33 when he first teammed with Magic, so good luck to Hakeem winning as much while getting out of his prime (and he did so pretty quickly). Hakeem at 38 was almost finished, Kareem was winning F.MVP. Second, Hakeem with all these teammates, doesn't get the numbers and accolades he did by playing with all those guys. And, no, Hakeem wasn't the best player of the 1986 Finals. Bird was, and it doesn't depend on the winner.
Want to be straight, with no excuses yourself? 6 titles and 4 Finals' appearances vs 2 and 1. 6 MVP's vs 1. Same number of F.MVP's. More all-NBA teams, all-star appearances, #1 scorer all-time and #2 playoff scorer all-time. Hakeem has zero case against him, career-wise, period. Prime-wise, he's a lot closer, but if primes mattered that much, Hakeem would be a GOAT candidate. Where are you and your Hakeem, BTW, in the GOAT discussions? Why don't you use the "but, but he had no teammates!" excuse against everyone to make a case for him being GOAT? It's pretty well accepted Hakeem had worse teammates than Magic and Bird and Jordan and Russell and Wilt as well, so I guess he must have the same argument over them. Not to mention that, going by averages, he must also have been a better playoff performer than most of them...

[millwad]

It's funny how you're suddenly calling me "pathetic" because of using the same type of arguments that you use (aka, assumptions), and not only this, I'm using assumptions which were much closer to being realized than yours. I'm claiming that Kareem's 2 Finals' MVP's did not do him justice and explain how close he got to a couple more. What you do during the whole thread, on the other hand, is whining about Hakeem having worse teammates and make baseless assumptions about much he'd win if he'd be teammed with Magic, Worthy, etc. I guess all these assumptions are more realistic than Kareem not getting injured and winning a single game more... Well, for one, Kareem was already 32-33 when he first teammed with Magic, so good luck to Hakeem winning as much while getting out of his prime (and he did so pretty quickly). Hakeem at 38 was almost finished, Kareem was winning F.MVP. Second, Hakeem with all these teammates, doesn't get the numbers and accolades he did by playing with all those guys. And, no, Hakeem wasn't the best player of the 1986 Finals. Bird was, and it doesn't depend on the winner.
Want to be straight, with no excuses yourself? 6 titles and 4 Finals' appearances vs 2 and 1. 6 MVP's vs 1. Same number of F.MVP's. More all-NBA teams, all-star appearances, #1 scorer all-time and #2 playoff scorer all-time. Hakeem has zero case against him, career-wise, period. Prime-wise, he's a lot closer, but if primes mattered that much, Hakeem would be a GOAT candidate. Where are you and your Hakeem, BTW, in the GOAT discussions? Why don't you use the "but, but he had no teammates!" excuse against everyone to make a case for him being GOAT? It's pretty well accepted Hakeem had worse teammates than Magic and Bird and Jordan and Russell and Wilt as well, so I guess he must have the same argument over them. Not to mention that, going by averages, he must also have been a better playoff performer than most of them...

Kareem's 2 finals MVP is showcasing the fact that he had amazing players by his side. Well, if Kareem would have won a game more he'd probably have one more Finals MVP, but he didn't, if Hakeem would have won 2 more games against Boston he'd as well have on more Finals MVP, I'm not getting what your point is because the same can be said about Hakeem and since when did a guy on the losing team get the FMVP...

And yeah, Kareem was 32 when he teamed up with Magic, the same age Hakeem was when he dominated Robinson and Shaq in the playoffs and played the basketball of his life, the difference was that Hakeem did it with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Maxwell and Robert Horry while Kareem did it with Magic Johnson, Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Michael Cooper and after that his teammates even improved a la Byron Scott and Worthy.

My point is that Hakeem's prime gets overlooked because he had terrible player by his side and if you can win with Kenny Smith and Otis Thorpe you sure as hell WOULD win with Magic, Worthy, Scott etc... Even during those years between Kareem's first ring and the second he at some times had better players than Hakeem did during his championshipruns.

And yeah, MVP's only goes to players on great teams and basketball is a teamsport so it's not really fair to compare Hakeem's one MVP to Kareem 6 and lets not forget that Hakeem played in an era dominated by the best player by all-time, Michael Jordan. I have a hard time seeing Kareem winning all those MVP's if he entered the league at the same as Hakeem did.

Thing is, I'm not even saying that Hakeem is better than Kareem, I'm just saying that I think it's way closer than people on here is trying to make it. I really believe Kareem had some great advantages winning his chips and MVP's, his MVP's all came in the 70's beside the last one and it's widely known that the 70's wasn't as good as the 80's and 90's. And winning his chips he had the help of way better players than Hakeem had, Kenny Smith vs Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson:cheers:!

Careerwise, yeah, Kareem has an edge mainly due the era he played in and the players he had with him but in their prime's I think Hakeem was just as good as any one else, Kareem included.

[Psileas]

Kareem's 2 finals MVP is showcasing the fact that he had amazing players by his side. Well, if Kareem would have won a game more he'd probably have one more Finals MVP, but he didn't, if Hakeem would have won 2 more games against Boston he'd as well have on more Finals MVP, I'm not getting what your point is because the same can be said about Hakeem and since when did a guy on the losing team get the FMVP...

My point is that, like the regular season MVP, the Finals' MVP is partially a team matter. For me, if player A (not necessarily Kareem, but whoever) got to dominate 4 finals and won the MVP in 2 of them because his team lost the other 2, while player B got to dominate 2 finals, and also won 2 MVP's, I'll rank player A above player B, despite the equal number of Finals' MVP's.


And yeah, Kareem was 32 when he teamed up with Magic, the same age Hakeem was when he dominated Robinson and Shaq in the playoffs and played the basketball of his life, the difference was that Hakeem did it with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Maxwell and Robert Horry while Kareem did it with Magic Johnson, Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Michael Cooper and after that his teammates even improved a la Byron Scott and Worthy.

Hakeem at 32 is title material. At 33-34 (aka, his 1996-1997 versions), he's still a candidate. What happens next is the matter. His drop off between 1997 and 1998 was very significant. From 2000 and on, I didn't even want to watch him any more.


And yeah, MVP's only goes to players on great teams and basketball is a teamsport so it's not really fair to compare Hakeem's one MVP to Kareem 6 and lets not forget that Hakeem played in an era dominated by the best player by all-time, Michael Jordan. I have a hard time seeing Kareem winning all those MVP's if he entered the league at the same as Hakeem did.

Kareem was the individual dominator of his own era and I consider his prime comparable to Jordan's, so it goes both ways. In other words, he'd make things harder for Jordan, too. Plus, it's not as if Hakeem was losing MVP's to Jordan. Before and after 1994, he was runner-up just once, and he actually finished above Jordan in that voting (I'd say he had an argument to win it and that it was a top-3 or 4 season for him).

(See, I don't even disagree with everything you wrote, although I consider young Kareem better equipped to dominate early in his career and that it wasn't only an era thing).

[millwad]

Kareem was the individual dominator of his own era and I consider his prime comparable to Jordan's, so it goes both ways. In other words, he'd make things harder for Jordan, too. Plus, it's not as if Hakeem was losing MVP's to Jordan. Before and after 1994, he was runner-up just once, and he actually finished above Jordan in that voting (I'd say he had an argument to win it and that it was a top-3 or 4 season for him).

(See, I don't even disagree with everything you wrote).

That's what I meant, he had seasons being overlooked because he was on bad teams which was because he had terrible teammates. And in 95 he clearly showed who the real MVP was.

By the way, I think I've been unclear of my message, I don't think that Hakeem careerwise was better than Kareem, I think that Kareem is the 2nd best player by all-time careerwise and how long he was productive is amazing and unseen of.

Though what I think is that Hakeem could have had achieved what Kareem did if he'd be in the same situation and that Kareem was really fortunate to have the opportunity to play with the guys he did. And that prime Hakeem was just as good as anyone else in the history of basketball.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kareem clearly had the better career. But I'd take prime dream over prime jabar, mainly because he's a better defensive anchor.

Prime Hakeem isn't as good as Prime Kareem, don't fool yourself.

[millwad]

Prime Hakeem isn't as good as Prime Kareem, don't fool yourself.

Prime Hakeem is the only player to win Finals MVP, MVP and DPOY in the same year.. Prime Hakeem is one of the GOAT's.

[ThaRegul8r]

Prime Hakeem is the only player to win Finals MVP, MVP and DPOY in the same year.. Prime Hakeem is one of the GOAT's.

To be fair, the Defensive Player of the Year award is a recent award, having existed less than 30 years. It sure as hell would have been done (on multiple occasions no less) prior to Hakeem had the award existed longer than 28 years.