Will Derek Rose Go Down As One of the Worst MVPs Of All Time

[SilkkTheShocker]

I know MVP doesn't always go to the best player. But Dirk, Dwight, Wade, LeBron, etc where all definitely better than him. And his numbers were far from eye popping.

[Michael_Wilbon]

http://troll.me/images/grinning-emperor-palpatine/let-the-hate-flow-through-you.jpg

[tmacattack33]

Either him, Nash, or Iverson. And out of those three it, probably him or Iverson. And out of those two it's probably Rose.

[jimmy77x]

Silk is a flaming homosexual, this guy hates on anyone not named after his daddy lebron .

[Big One]

Either him, Nash, or Iverson. And out of those three it, probably him or Iverson. And out of those two it's probably Rose.

iverson? LLLLOOOOL. you dont know shit about the nba if you think that. Kobe was a much worse MVP, he basically got it as a career achievement award.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Either him, Nash, or Iverson. And out of those three it, probably him or Iverson. And out of those two it's probably Rose.


I usually agree with you. But Iverson definitely deserved MVP in 01.

[kaiteng]

DO YOU EVEN WATCH BASKETBALL!? JEEZZZZZ!!!

[NumberSix]

Rose getting that MVP was a complete joke.

[SilkkTheShocker]

iverson? LLLLOOOOL. you dont know shit about the nba if you think that. Kobe was a much worse MVP, he basically got it as a career achievement award.


Paul should have definitely gotten MVP in 08. That MVP was a friggin joke.

[RoseCity07]

Don't know who that is.

[TheWINdyCity]

Another quality thread :bowdown:

[selrahc]

nash is worst mvp of all time. he did not deserve either of his. both belonged to kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

iverson? LLLLOOOOL. you dont know shit about the nba if you think that. Kobe was a much worse MVP, he basically got it as a career achievement award.

What a joke. You clearly didn't watch Kobe in '08, or are far too biased to discuss him, either way, you're not qualified to speak on the subject. Career achievement? Kobe arguably had the best season of his career. At worst, it's top 2 with 2006. 2008 was definitely his most all around season. He was still the best scorer in the league, but he played better defense than he had since the 3peat and the only time his playmaking has rivaled 2008 was the 2001 playoffs, and Kobe sustained it for an entire season in 2008. What he did with that Laker team with the injuries and how unbeatable they were with Gasol was clearly MVP-worthy. He was obviously the best player in the game that year.


nash is worst mvp of all time. he did not deserve either of his. both belonged to kobe.

I don't think Nash was the worst either in level of play or who deserved it vs their peers, though I do agree that Kobe was MVP in 2006. However, how did Kobe deserve it in 2005? He didn't even deserve to be a candidate that year. Are you mixing up 2005 with 2007?

[TheMarkMadsen]

What a joke. You clearly didn't watch Kobe in '08, or are far too biased to discuss him, either way, you're not qualified to speak on the subject. Career achievement? Kobe arguably had the best season of his career. At worst, it's top 2 with 2006. 2008 was definitely his most all around season. He was still the best scorer in the league, but he played better defense than he had since the 3peat and the only time his playmaking has rivaled 2008 was the 2001 playoffs, and Kobe sustained it for an entire season in 2008. What he did with that Laker team with the injuries and how unbeatable they were with Gasol was clearly MVP-worthy. He was obviously the best player in the game that year.



I don't think Nash was the worst either in level of play or who deserved it vs their peers, though I do agree that Kobe was MVP in 2006. However, how did Kobe deserve it in 2005? He didn't even deserve to be a candidate that year. Are you mixing up 2005 with 2007?


ISH should pay you to scan every post and call out idiots like this one on their bs.

[wally_world]

The fact that he's the youngest to ever win it makes it worse.

A lot of people might put up Nash's name but i feel he truly deserved it. Statistically he might not have been very impressive, but the impact he had on his team was so obvious. He practically turned one of the worst team in the L into the best by himself.

[SilkkTheShocker]

nash is worst mvp of all time. he did not deserve either of his. both belonged to kobe.


Stop......

[SilkkTheShocker]

ISH should pay you to scan every post and call out idiots like this one on their bs.

Hilarious coming from a biased Kobe nut hugger. Sit in the corner and shut the f.uck up, Corky

[tmacattack33]

I usually agree with you. But Iverson definitely deserved MVP in 01.

Oh. I wasn't really talking about whether or not he deserved the "most valuable player" award or not for that specific year...i was just saying that he's one of the worst players to have won an MVP at some point in his career.

Iverson was good...but not MJ, Duncan, and Lebron level good.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Oh. I wasn't really talking about whether or not he deserved the "most valuable player" award or not for that specific year...i was just saying that he's one of the worst players to have won an MVP at some point in his career.

Iverson was good...but not MJ, Duncan, and Lebron level good.


Agreed.

[francesco totti]

AI deserved his MVP. He took his team to the finals, won the all star mvp..even won scoring title too.
He is far away from being worst.

I see people picking up on the players who ended up not winning a ring tho.Argh what a single ring does...

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hilarious coming from a biased Kobe nut hugger. Sit in the corner and shut the f.uck up, Corky


Aw, I say one or two good things about Kobe every now and then and that upsets you.

I also give props to Lebron and other players all the time.

But once again another quality thread from Lebron's son.







I bet it made you happy when I called you Lebron's son :yaohappy:

[midatlantic09]

Nash is clearly the worst MVP of all time and will likely hold that title for the next 20 yrs or so

[guy]

Probably. So what? Being the worst MVP of all-time is like being a top 50 player ever but being the 50th best player ever.

[Whoah10115]

He won't rank as low as OP does amongst posters.

[lebeast666]

Yup. Lebron was robbed for roses MVP and last years All-star MVP

[nathanjizzle]

I know MVP doesn't always go to the best player. But Dirk, Dwight, Wade, LeBron, etc where all definitely better than him. And his numbers were far from eye popping.

:facepalm 2011 derrick rose and lebron james vs the top 6 teams in the nba

rose- 28 pts, 7 assist - bulls winning record.
lebron 26 points 7 assist- heat losing record.

try again.

[brandonislegend]

:facepalm 2011 derrick rose and lebron james vs the top 6 teams in the nba

rose- 28 pts, 7 assist - bulls winning record.
lebron 26 points 7 assist- heat losing record.

try again.

Do you understand what Most Valuable Player means? has nothing to do with that even though Rose shouldn't have won imo.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He won't rank as low as OP does amongst posters.


OH NO!!!! SOME PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET DON"T LIKE ME!!!!



:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[nathanjizzle]

Do you understand what Most Valuable Player means? has nothing to do with that even though Rose shouldn't have won imo.

yes i know what mvp is more than you do. i was just clearly showing how anyone would claim lebron should have won mvp over rose when lebron didnt lead his team to victory against elite teams like rose did.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Dwight Howard deserved MVP that year Derrick winning was a joke but the whole award is a joke anyway

[SilkkTheShocker]

Yup. Lebron was robbed for roses MVP and last years All-star MVP


Sweet avatar :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[nathanjizzle]

Dwight Howard deserved MVP that year Derrick winning was a joke but the whole award is a joke anyway

ur mad cuz kyrie wont ever be considered better than rose untill rose is growing gray hair.

[97 bulls]

He definitely deserved it. Rose almost singlehandedly won 15-20 games for the Bulls that year.

[SilkkTheShocker]

ur mad cuz kyrie wont ever be considered better than rose untill rose is growing gray hair.



Irving>>>>>Rose

[nathanjizzle]

He definitely deserved it. Rose almost singlehandedly won 15-20 games for the Bulls that year.

this, i remember distinctly around those many games where he put the bulls on his back in the 4th quarter. too bad most these guys claiming roses mvp was a joke barely watched 3 bulls games the entire season. The same year where everyone started realizing lebron was disappearing in the 4th quarter, but somehow lebron deserved the mvp over rose:facepalm

[Basketbolero]

Another terrible thread by SinktheSucker, it's unbelievable how clueless about basketball this clown is given the amount of time he spends talking about it.

[pegasus]

He definitely deserved it. Rose almost singlehandedly won 15-20 games for the Bulls that year.
This. Some idiots obviously didn't watch any Bulls games that year, or they are having an allergic reaction to all his clutch shots for the obvious reason.

[Mr Exlax]

Rose wasn't even the best player at his position that season. I still don't understand how he won the MVP. He wasn't leading in anything. I think what the bulls had the best record but that's about all right? Dwight Howard should've won it that year.

[KyrieTheFuture]

ur mad cuz kyrie wont ever be considered better than rose untill rose is growing gray hair.
I'm sorry at least the player I'm a fan of is actually, ya know, playing. But please by all means ignore what I posted and just talk about something unrelated no one will notice you deflecting the truth. Dwight was better than rose.

[jstern]

iverson? LLLLOOOOL. you dont know shit about the nba if you think that. Kobe was a much worse MVP, he basically got it as a career achievement award.

Are you joking about Iverson?

[ShaqAttack3234]

He definitely deserved it. Rose almost singlehandedly won 15-20 games for the Bulls that year.

I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to say they would have won 15 fewer games without him. 47 wins sounds reasonable, though 50 wouldn't have surprised me with that defense and rebounding. However, I'd say Orlando would have won at least 20 fewer games without Howard, they won 52, and I can't see them doing much better than 32-50 that year without him. Dwight played far better than he had in any other year and everything Orlando was doing at both ends revolved around him.

As far as Lebron, I just don't see a way to argue that Rose could impact a game like Lebron. Lebron was a better scorer when he wanted to be, a better shooter, a better rebounder, a better passer and a much better defender.

[TheMarkMadsen]

honestly, Some Lebron stans will never be happy with the MVP votings.

Apparently nobody deserved the MVP except for when Lebron wins it.

[SilkkTheShocker]

honestly, Some Lebron stans will never be happy with the MVP votings.

Apparently nobody deserved the MVP except for when Lebron wins it.


Do you know how to read, boy? I also mentioned Dirk, Wade, and Dwight in my first post. It just isn't LeBron. There were better players

[97 bulls]

I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to say they would have won 15 fewer games without him. 47 wins sounds reasonable, though 50 wouldn't have surprised me with that defense and rebounding. However, I'd say Orlando would have won at least 20 fewer games without Howard, they won 52, and I can't see them doing much better than 32-50 that year without him. Dwight played far better than he had in any other year and everything Orlando was doing at both ends revolved around him.

As far as Lebron, I just don't see a way to argue that Rose could impact a game like Lebron. Lebron was a better scorer when he wanted to be, a better shooter, a better rebounder, a better passer and a much better defender.
Just the fact that the Magic were only able to accumulate 52 wins eliminates Howard. I remember having this kind of comversation about Pippen in 94. The way it was worded to me was that historically, players dont win the MVP award unless their team is top 3. I guess its kinda an unwritten rule. James had no business winning it because his team underachieved during the regular season.

[fpliii]

Do you know how to read, boy? I also mentioned Dirk, Wade, and Dwight in my first post. It just isn't LeBron. There were better players

Agree. I don't have a *huge* problem with the award since its criteria are kinda shaky, but I would've preferred if any of Dirk, Wade, Dwight won (Rose isn't an awful pick, but I think all three guys were more deserving).

The media voting is problematic though. I value the MVP from prior to the shift from player voting much more (I forget which season it started?). The Sporting News holds a player vote for their MVP award (well, at least they have in the past, at least through the 80s...the last year I know for fact there was a player vote was 89).

[RoundMoundOfReb]

honestly i would prefer a most outstanding player award rather than most valuable player.

[fpliii]

honestly i would prefer a most outstanding player award rather than most valuable player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/tsn_mvp.html

They called it Player of the Year for some time. Though I don't know if player voting continued after the 89 season (that's the last season for which I've found votes).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Best player on the best team in the league (statistically). Pretty straight forward.

What's there to discuss? :confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

honestly i would prefer a most outstanding player award rather than most valuable player.

This.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Do you know how to read, boy? I also mentioned Dirk, Wade, and Dwight in my first post. It just isn't LeBron. There were better players


What did Dirk & Wade do that year in the regular season that made them more deserving than Rose?

The year prior to Rose winning MVP (09-10) the Bulls had won 41 games.. The next year they won 62 games with Rose leading the team in scoring and assist with 25 & 8. The Bulls finished with the best record in the NBA



The year prior to Rose winning MVP (09-10) The HEAT won 47 games..The next year after adding Lebron & Chris Bosh they won 58 games with Lebron (not wade) leading the team in scoring.

So Wade gets 2 superstars added to his team, doesn't lead his team in scoring or assist and doesn't finish above Rose's team in the standings and yet he deserves MVP more than rose?

Dirk had a great year but was down statistically from the year before (25 & 8 down to 23 & 7) and his team finished 2nd in his division. How many times has a player won MVP with his stats down and his team finishing 2nd in his division? Also, DIrk had a much more well rounded team and better supporting cast than rose.

So please, tell me how Dirk & Wade were more deserving than Rose?

[bdreason]

MVP's are difficult to look back on because they happen in a vacuum. A lot of it has to do with who is playing well towards the end of the season, and who the media is choosing to highlight.

Let's not forget that MVP does not mean best player. MVP typically goes to a top 10 player, playing for a top 5 team, who happens to get hot/popular at the end of the year.

[Ne 1]

I usually agree with you. But Iverson definitely deserved MVP in 01.

He didn't clearly deserve it. Shaq deserved it (or even Duncan would have been a better choice in 2001 over AI), but Iverson did deserve consideration though.




Kobe was a much worse MVP, he basically got it as a career achievement award.



Paul should have definitely gotten MVP in 08. That MVP was a friggin joke.

:oldlol:

The Lakers were 25-11 early at the time of Bynum's injury, Kobe kept them going until they got Gasol, then Gasol was injured and he kept them going and they ended up with the best record in one of the most competitive conferences ever. Kobe's balance between getting his teammates involved early and taking over later was reminiscent of Jordan that season. He was a great playmaker, a deadly scorer who did play unselfishly for the most part, he rebounded very well for a guard and he had his best defensive season since the 3peat.

Kobe deserved the 2008 MVP.


Chris Paul wasn't going to get the MVP in 2008 is how the end of the season played out. The Hornets lost 4 of their last 5 games and lost HCA in the west by 1 game. That includes a game where Kobe outplayed Paul. I feel like to be an MVP, you should be able to play well when in matters. Kobe raised his game when it mattered and Paul sort of dropped of

[Whoah10115]

The only thing that was annoying about Rose's MVP was how absolute people were in picking him. It was like no one else should have bothered to play basketball that year. The hype was annoying. And also, I do think it's quite clear that Howard was the best player in the league in 2011.


Lebron, I'm sorry...there is no argument for James that year. He showed all his quality but over the full course of the season did not have the impact that Rose had. The Bulls had the better coach and were very well built, but they didn't have the a player on that team as good as Bosh, much less one as good as Wade. Wade was every bit the player that Lebron was that season. Neither of them had an argument for MVP.

[HylianNightmare]

nash

[Ikill]

Rose wasn't a terrible choice Dwight was more deserving Durant would of been a good choice too. Lebron and Wade didn't really have a case Dirk missed too many games and his stats weren't all that great. Rose was deserving but he still might be one of the worst players to ever win an MVP.

[pnyozzzoo]

A lot cases can be made against Rose:

1. He is too young, so not sure about his leadership.

2. He took advantage of a REAL deep team following a REAL good coach. That team proven last year without rose their still at the top of the east.

3. The team structure, Rose did not make everyone better, everyone plays hard defense and team ball while rose being the only elite scorer and he took most of the FGA he wanted.

4. The team's identity was defense, and Rose was not the best defender on that team, actually he is not even top 3.

5.Most importantly, Lebron like always should won that year, he is the better player and his team has similar record. But he cannot win due to "The Decision".

6.The league kinda want to get a new superstar, rose has an ok case and Stern jumped on it fast. Then injury and stuff takes an unexpected turn.

Rose's Mvp number is not that great, Harden's number as of now is similar if not better. So he kinda like AI, team play defense I play offense in a weak eastern conference.

With all that said, I still feel Rose deserved his MVP as when health he is one of the most impactful player in the league. Think about it when Westbrook wreck havoc in the Final everyone praises him and call him a top 10 player.
When Rose is healthy he is a more efficient and less dumb Westbrook. He is a top 5 player and best PG. A Wrecking machine is always better than a passive passing CP3 or Rondo.

[Shepseskaf]

Either him, Nash, or Iverson. And out of those three it, probably him or Iverson. And out of those two it's probably Rose.
AI isn't even part of this discussion.

Of the remaining two, Rose is a better player, Nash is a better facilitator. The fact that Nash somehow was given two MVPs makes him the worst, in my book.

2005 MVP -- belonged to Shaq
2006 MVP -- should have been Kobe or LeBron

[Whoah10115]

Rose wasn't a terrible choice Dwight was more deserving Durant would of been a good choice too. Lebron and Wade didn't really have a case Dirk missed too many games and his stats weren't all that great. Rose was deserving but he still might be one of the worst players to ever win an MVP.



The only thing Durant had on Dirk was that he didn't missed 5 fewer games. Dirk, in all actuality, played better that season. Durant played more minutes and a few more games.

[Whoah10115]

AI isn't even part of this discussion.

Of the remaining two, Rose is a better player, Nash is a better facilitator. The fact that Nash somehow was given two MVPs makes him the worst, in my book.

2005 MVP -- belonged to Shaq
2006 MVP -- should have been Kobe or LeBron



The Shaq argument is more tiring everything I see it. Shaq, my ass.

[Shepseskaf]

The Shaq argument is more tiring everything I see it. Shaq, my ass.
Really, who the hell cares how "tired" you are? Shaq should have been named the MVP for that year.

How much of a travesty is it that Shaq has one MVP and Nash has two?

[SilkkTheShocker]

The Shaq argument is more tiring everything I see it. Shaq, my ass.


Shaq was definitely the real MVP in 2005.

[TheMan]

The OP has an unhealthy mancrush on LBJ.

[BuffaloBill]

Lol why do people take threads like this seriously?

[Glide2keva]

Not even close.

Karl Malone in 1997 was the worst MVP ever. This is before a lot of people on heres' time, but Malone basically cried and whined all season to get the award. He was saying shit like "Come on Michael, let me win once."

They asked MJ (the media) how he felt about Malone possibly getting the award and he said "let him have it, it doesn't matter"

So they voted for Malone and he got the award because he whine like a baby, the entire season.

[Smoke117]

Besides Iverson, yeah. Malone statistically was the best player in the league in 97 so he wasn't the worst MVP at all.

[TheBigVeto]

Kobe is worst MVP ever.

[hitmanyr2k]

I'm not going to act like Rose didn't deserve MVP. He improved tremendously that year, was a consummate teammate, and he took over and won games in the end that the Bulls should have lost. Is he the weakest MVP ever? Maybe. 22 year old 3rd year players aren't supposed to be winning MVP. That said more about the state of the league at the time than it did Rose. Any star could have taken it that year if they had performed to expectations. If Dirk hadn't gone down with injury and the Mavs didn't falter down the stretch perhaps he could have been MVP. If Dwight Howard showed up in 4th qtrs and lead his teams to wins instead of disappearing all the time maybe he could have been MVP. If Wade, Lebron, and Kobe hadn't lead their teams to multiple losing streaks in embarrassing fashion throughout the season perhaps they could have been MVP. They all f***ed up in a way and rolled out the red carpet to Rose.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lol why do people take threads like this seriously?


How many different names are you going to post under, Alamo?

[Glide2keva]

I'm not going to act like Rose didn't deserve MVP. He improved tremendously that year, was a consummate teammate, and he took over and won games in the end that the Bulls should have lost. Is he the weakest MVP ever? Maybe. 22 year old 3rd year players aren't supposed to be winning MVP. That said more about the state of the league at the time than it did Rose. Any star could have taken it that year if they had performed to expectations. If Dirk hadn't gone down with injury and the Mavs didn't falter down the stretch perhaps he could have been MVP. If Dwight Howard showed up in 4th qtrs and lead his teams to wins instead of disappearing all the time maybe he could have been MVP. If Wade, Lebron, and Kobe hadn't lead their teams to multiple losing streaks in embarrassing fashion throughout the season perhaps they could have been MVP. They all f***ed up in a way and rolled out the red carpet to Rose.
Plus Howard missing the showdown game against Rose because he got his 18th tech and got suspended. So he screwed himself.

Rose played the best of all candidates and didn't have a let down.

[Mr Exlax]

Rose wasn't even the best player at his position that season though. What did he do better than anybody else? He didn't lead the league in anything. I don't think he was in the top 5 in any category. Somebody help me out. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[Glide2keva]

Rose wasn't even the best player at his position that season though. What did he do better than anybody else? He didn't lead the league in anything. I don't think he was in the top 5 in any category. Somebody help me out. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
He led his team to the best record in the league.

[Graviton]

Rose wasn't even the best player at his position that season though. What did he do better than anybody else? He didn't lead the league in anything. I don't think he was in the top 5 in any category. Somebody help me out. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
He led his team to the best record in the league with no all-stars on his team while averaging 25/8/4 and closing out lot of games, Noah/Boozer also missed quite a few games. He was 1st Team All NBA and the best PG that year. You are an idiot if you don't think he was the best player at his position.

People discredit Rose by giving all the credit to Bulls defense, but where did Bulls get without Rose? 1st round exit vs ECF is the difference. 1st game against 76ers Rose basically got a triple double and an easy win, he goes down and Bulls can't even close out a team with no real stars or scorers.

[Whoah10115]

Not even close.

Karl Malone in 1997 was the worst MVP ever. This is before a lot of people on heres' time, but Malone basically cried and whined all season to get the award. He was saying shit like "Come on Michael, let me win once."

They asked MJ (the media) how he felt about Malone possibly getting the award and he said "let him have it, it doesn't matter"

So they voted for Malone and he got the award because he whine like a baby, the entire season.



Malone should have won it the next season, so all is well.

[Whoah10115]

Really, who the hell cares how "tired" you are? Shaq should have been named the MVP for that year.

How much of a travesty is it that Shaq has one MVP and Nash has two?



It's no travesty. Shaq should have two but it's no travesty and it shouldn't be a lifetime achievement.


What exactly did Shaq do better than Nash in 2005? Statistically, he was well below his average and did it in the BS East. Nash was responsible for the biggest turnaround ever, in the West, more than doubling their win total. Nash played basketball better than Shaq did. I'll say this for Shaq: that was the one season in his career where he actually made other players better (and no, making good passes out of the double is not equal to making people better). It was the one time his game couldn't be measured solely in stats.


There's no sensible argument for Shaq in 2005. He still played no defense. Nash's defense was what it always was and always will be: terrific effort but not good. He made players better, he made his team move, he was responsible for one of the great offenses and his league-leading assists didn't tell the story of how he affected that offense. They were much worse the year before than Miami was. And they were better the next year than Miami was.


Anyone who argues Shaq just loves to argue him. I couldn't care less how many MVP's he has. He wasn't as good a basketball player as Nash was and he didn't even have the obvious things in his favor that Nash had. People are talking about Malone and whoever else whining and campaigning for it. That's what Shaq did all year. He was doing it 10 games into the season, talking about how he changed the team. Nash actually changed his team. You drop Nash and Phoenix is not a .500 team. You drop Shaq and Miami is still pushing for a top 4 record in the East.


So again, what's the argument?

[midatlantic09]

nash is a 2 time mvp and has NEVER received a max contract...there's a reason why.

[chazzy]

In terms of level of play, he's up there. But going by the trend of how the award is given out, it's not some huge travesty he won. I personally thought Dwight was more valuable to his team.

[Euroleague]

Rose is by far and away the worst player to ever win NBA MVP. That was the biggest joke ever of NBA history when he won that award. The NBA became a joke when it did that.

[tpols]

nash is a 2 time mvp and has NEVER received a max contract...there's a reason why.
Because he peaked very late in his career? What a dumb argument..

[red1]

wtf is a derek rose

[Clifton]

One thing that worries me is that Rose will be the next Grant Hill.

[Magic bird]

wtf is a derek rose
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[L3B120N J4M35]

idiot didnt even spell his name right lmao

[ShaqAttack3234]

Just the fact that the Magic were only able to accumulate 52 wins eliminates Howard. I remember having this kind of comversation about Pippen in 94. The way it was worded to me was that historically, players dont win the MVP award unless their team is top 3. I guess its kinda an unwritten rule. James had no business winning it because his team underachieved during the regular season.

Eh, they haven't always been consistent with the criteria. Regardless, I don't care. I'm talking about who I think should have won based on their impact on the basketball court. Lebron's team still won 58 games, and the reason they didn't win more has to do with the adjustment period which resulted in a 9-8 start. After that, they were 49-16. Either way, I simply can't be convinced that Rose could impact a game like Lebron who was pretty much better in every facet of the game. Then there's Dirk whose Mavs won 57 games despite Caron Butler going down, and those same Mavs were just 2-7 without Dirk.

Btw, I think Pippen had an MVP caliber season in '94, and he was one of the game's top 5 players from '94-'96. I wouldn't give him the '94 MVP, though, simply because I think Hakeem was ridiculously good at that time. Not a knock on Pippen who is one of my absolute favorites. Not many can compare to Hakeem at his peak as far as I'm concerned.

A problem I have is that I think it's pretty ridiculous when the MVP isn't given to a player who is a top 5 player. For example, I don't have a problem with Nash being voted MVP in '05, and aside from Duncan, KG and Shaq, who else was a better player? Duncan missed 16 games, KG missed the playoffs and Shaq wasn't quite prime Shaq anymore, plus Phoenix revolved around Nash so much so I think it was a valid choice.

Here are my MVP choices from the 90's on, a few I have difficulty deciding between two players. Not all years reflect best players since I judge it based on the regular season only, and I do factor in missed games.

1990- Jordan
1991- Jordan
1992- Jordan
1993- Hakeem (also fine with Barkley)
1994- Hakeem
1995- Robinson (also fine with Shaq)
1996- Jordan
1997- Jordan
1998- Jordan
1999- Duncan
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Nash (also fine with Shaq)
2006- Kobe
2007- Dirk (also fine with Nash)
2008- Kobe
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron
2011- Dwight
2012- Lebron

[Droid101]

Probably. The Bulls have had really good records even without him.

[red1]

Lebron, I'm sorry...there is no argument for James that year. He showed all his quality but over the full course of the season did not have the impact that Rose had. The Bulls had the better coach and were very well built, but they didn't have the a player on that team as good as Bosh, much less one as good as Wade. Wade was every bit the player that Lebron was that season. Neither of them had an argument for MVP.
This just proves that you don't know shit.

[TheMarkMadsen]

This just proves that you don't know shit.


this just proves you're a Lebron stan.


Lebron had Bosh & apparently an MVP canidate Wade playing alongside him.

D Rose didn't even have an all star on his team.

Bulls had the best record in the NBA while his 2 best players missed numerous games

[red1]

this just proves you're a Lebron stan.


Lebron had Bosh & apparently an MVP canidate Wade playing alongside him.

D Rose didn't even have an all star on his team.

Bulls had the best record in the NBA while his 2 best players missed numerous games
When it comes to arguing who had more impact on the court - 2011 lbj or 2011 rose - there is no argument. Lately you have been on a tear when it comes to posting retarded shit, step it up.

[red1]

The bulls got that record because they were well coached and the entire roster was playing amazing defense from top to bottom. LBJ had more talented teammates but having bosh and wade on your team is redundant when every player needs the ball in their hands to score and have on impact on offense. That won't help you win regular season games. Lebron was better than rose at LITERALLY EVERYTHING including defense.

[TheMarkMadsen]

When it comes to arguing who had more impact on the court - 2011 lbj or 2011 rose - there is no argument. Lately you have been on a tear when it comes to posting retarded shit, step it up.


so if he had more impact on the court then Rose, how come that "impact" didn't translate to more wins than the Bulls?

If Lebron had more impact than Rose on the court, and he was playing alongside Wade & Bosh how the hell did they finish behind Rose's team in the standings?


you have no evidence to back up your claim because all evidence contradicts the non sense that you are trying to spew

[TheMarkMadsen]

The bulls got that record because they were well coached and the entire roster was playing amazing defense from top to bottom. LBJ had more talented teammates but having bosh and wade on your team is redundant when every player needs the ball in their hands to score and have on impact on offense. That won't help you win regular season games. Lebron was better than rose at LITERALLY EVERYTHING including defense.




So according to you Lebron had more of an impact YET at the same time you admit that his team didn't play well together.. so apparently his impact wasn't impactful enough to lead a team with 2 other all starts to a #1 record?

2011: Noah missed 34 games, Boozer missed 23 games and Keith Bogans was their starting shooting guard.

So Lebron was leading a team comprised of 2 other all stars in Wade & Bosh and led them to the # 2 record in the east.

And Rose was leading a team comprised of no all stars, missing his 2nd best player for almost half the season, missing his 3rd best player for 23 games while having Kurt Thomas start at center in place of Noah, and he led them to the best record in the entire league..

Yeah..Lebron had more impact :rolleyes:

[red1]

so if he had more impact on the court then Rose, how come that "impact" didn't translate to more wins than the Bulls?

If Lebron had more impact than Rose on the court, and he was playing alongside Wade & Bosh how the hell did they finish behind Rose's team in the standings?


you have no evidence to back up your claim because all evidence contradicts the non sense that you are trying to spew
lmao you don't know shit either. I just explained why rose' team won more games in the regular season, because they played consistent TEAM DEFENSE. LBJ was a better defender than rose so you can't claim rose has an advantage over lbj in this department either. Why did lebron's team win less games even though he was a more impactful player on the court? Well because the roster had other flaws. Their halfcourt sets didn't make full use of their talent. A kobe fanboy should know this more than anyone. Look at your boy scoring as well as he ever has yet he can't win games because the entire team has bad chemistry. The difference is that lbj wasn't slacking on defense, in fact he was also his team's best defender.

Are you really saying that 2011 rose was a more impactful player than 2011 lbj?

[TheMan]

So according to you Lebron had more of an impact YET at the same time you admit that his team didn't play well together.. so apparently his impact wasn't impactful enough to lead a team with 2 other all starts to a #1 record?

2011: Noah missed 34 games, Boozer missed 23 games and Keith Bogans was their starting shooting guard.

So Lebron was leading a team comprised of 2 other all stars in Wade & Bosh and led them to the # 2 record in the east.

And Rose was leading a team comprised of no all stars, missing his 2nd best player for almost half the season, missing his 3rd best player for 23 games while having Kurt Thomas start at center in place of Noah, and he led them to the best record in the entire league..

Yeah..Lebron had more impact :rolleyes:
Pretty simple when you break it down that way...but but but, the Bulls had a better coach!!:facepalm :oldlol:

Le Bron stans right up there with the Kobe kids on ignorance:applause:

[red1]

:facepalm Did you guys even watch any games? Are you honestly saying that you think rose was a more impactful player than lbj?

[red1]

Pretty simple when you break it down that way...but but but, the Bulls had a better coach!!:facepalm :oldlol:

Le Bron stans right up there with the Kobe kids on ignorance:applause:
:roll: How about you go look at their production and tell me who did more for their team. Keep in mind that that is only half the story as lebron was also a MUCH better defender.

[TheMan]

lmao you don't know shit either. I just explained why rose' team won more games in the regular season, because they played consistent TEAM DEFENSE. LBJ was a better defender than rose so you can't claim rose has an advantage over lbj in this department either. Why did lebron's team win less games even though he was a more impactful player on the court? Well because the roster had other flaws. Their halfcourt sets didn't make full use of their talent. A kobe fanboy should know this more than anyone. Look at your boy scoring as well as he ever has yet he can't win games because the entire team has bad chemistry. The difference is that lbj wasn't slacking on defense, in fact he was also his team's best defender.

Are you really saying that 2011 rose was a more impactful player than 2011 lbj?

The MVP is given to the player most impactful to the success of their team...not best over all player, or else Jordan and Shaq would have more MVPs.

Rose...no All star team mates, Boozer and Noah missing a ton of games= Best regular season record

LBJ...teams up with another top 5 player plus and All Star...not finishing with the best record.

LBJ was the best player, BUT NOT THE MVP, the Heat still had in Wade and Bosh better players the Bulls had not named Rose.

It's not that complicated.:facepalm

[TheMan]

:roll: How about you go look at their production and tell me who did more for their team. Keep in mind that that is only half the story as lebron was also a MUCH better defender.
and it translated to how many more wins than Chicago? Kobe is putting up some fine ass stats, his team might not make the playoffs but because of his production, should we consider him an MVP candidate?:oldlol:

[red1]

The MVP is given to the player most impactful to the success of their team...not best over all player, or else Jordan and Shaq would have more MVPs.

Rose...no All star team mates, Boozer and Noah missing a ton of games= Best regular season record

LBJ...teams up with another top 5 player plus and All Star...not finishing with the best record.

LBJ was the best player, BUT NOT THE MVP, the Heat still had in Wade and Bosh better players the Bulls had not named Rose.

It's not that complicated.:facepalm
No. I acknowledge that rose deserved the mvp by the criteria they voters use. That said, you and markmadsen are both wrong about who had more impact on the court. LBJ had more impact than rose. Period.

[red1]

and it translated to how many wins? Kobe is putting up some fine ass stats, his team might not make the playoffs but because of his production, should we consider him an MVP candidate?:oldlol:
:oldlol: They had 58 wins dumbass.

[TheMarkMadsen]

lmao you don't know shit either. I just explained why rose' team won more games in the regular season, because they played consistent TEAM DEFENSE. LBJ was a better defender than rose so you can't claim rose has an advantage over lbj in this department either. Why did lebron's team win less games even though he was a more impactful player on the court? Well because the roster had other flaws. Their halfcourt sets didn't make full use of their talent. A kobe fanboy should know this more than anyone. Look at your boy scoring as well as he ever has yet he can't win games because the entire team has bad chemistry. The difference is that lbj wasn't slacking on defense, in fact he was also his team's best defender.

Are you really saying that 2011 rose was a more impactful player than 2011 lbj?

yes.




I just explained why rose' team won more games in the regular season, because they played consistent TEAM DEFENSE.

Was Rose part of this :confusedshrug: their best defender missed 34 games.



Why did lebron's team win less games even though he was a more impactful player on the court? Well because the roster had other flaws.

And the Bulls roster didn't? They were missing their 2nd best player for 34 games, Missed boozer for 20 + games. Had Keith Bogans starting.

For majority of the year the bulls starting 5 looked like this

Kurt Thomas
Carlos Boozer
Luol Deng
Keith Bogans
Derrick Rose

vs


Joel Anthony
Chris Bosh
Lebron James
Dwayne Wade
Mario Chalmers

clearly D Rose was pulling more weight than Lebron

theres no way you can look at those two rosters and say that Lebron was working with less..

Rose had more Impact as he led his team to a better record with a far worse supporting cast, his team managed to have the best record in the NBA yet they played w/o 2 of their best players for 50+ games

[KyrieTheFuture]

Holy **** neither of them deserved the award. Dwight was the best player in the league that year hands down.

[hitmanyr2k]

:facepalm Did you guys even watch any games? Are you honestly saying that you think rose was a more impactful player than lbj?

I sure as hell watched that season. Lebron made his own bed and he had to lay in it. He was an attention whore who announced his free agency on a TV special to form a superteam, danced on a stage like a moron claiming shit was going to be easy and then his team started out with a .500 record and got their collective asses kicked by every playoff caliber team in the league while they could only beat the crap teams. They went on multiple 4+ game losing streaks with James choking time after time in the clutch. It wasn't an MVP-like season for him.

I know dumbass fans have the memory span of a gnat but the Bulls had been steady all season long despite injuries to key players. They didn't lose more than 2 games in a row all season and kicked every single elite team in the ass. Rose had the numbers, multiple 4th qtr comebacks he engineered, the great performances on national television against playoff bound teams and his team was winning at a consistent clip. No problem at all with him being MVP.

Like I said before, every elite player that season performed below standards and rolled out the red carpet for Rose to be MVP. It says more about the strength of the league that a 3rd year 22 year old player could take MVP than Rose himself.

[red1]

Do you not understand a single thing I posted?


lmao you don't know shit either. I just explained why rose' team won more games in the regular season, because they played consistent TEAM DEFENSE. LBJ was a better defender than rose so you can't claim rose has an advantage over lbj in this department either. Why did lebron's team win less games even though he was a more impactful player on the court? Well because the roster had other flaws. Their halfcourt sets didn't make full use of their talent. A kobe fanboy should know this more than anyone. Look at your boy scoring as well as he ever has yet he can't win games because the entire team has bad chemistry. The difference is that lbj wasn't slacking on defense, in fact he was also his team's best defender.

Are you really saying that 2011 rose was a more impactful player than 2011 lbj?
Do you not understand what this means?

[Clocian-IGN]

damn, the haters are still going strong, makes the return that much better!

[KyrieTheFuture]

I sure as hell watched that season. Lebron made his own bed and he had to lay in it. He was an attention whore who announced his free agency on a TV special to form a superteam, danced on a stage like a moron claiming shit was going to be easy and then his team started out with a .500 record and got their collective asses kicked by every playoff caliber team in the league while they could only beat the crap teams. They went on multiple 4+ game losing streaks with James choking time after time in the clutch. It wasn't an MVP-like season for him.

I know dumbass fans have the memory span of a gnat but the Bulls had been steady all season long despite injuries to key players. They didn't lose more than 2 games in a row all season and kicked every single elite team in the ass. Rose had the numbers, multiple 4th qtr comebacks he engineered, the great performances on national television against playoff bound teams and his team was winning at a consistent clip. No problem at all with him being MVP.

Like I said before, every elite player that season performed below standards and rolled out the red carpet for Rose to be MVP. It says more about the strength of the league that a 3rd year 22 year old player could take MVP than Rose himself.
Except Dwight.

[Whoah10115]

Are you really saying that 2011 rose was a more impactful player than 2011 lbj?



Rose played better in the 2010/11 regular season than Lebron did.

[red1]

Rose played better in the 2010/11 regular season than Lebron did.
No. Rose deserved the mvp more but this is not true. I understand why they gave the mvp to rose and I understand and agree with why they penalize lebron for having wade on his team. None of that changes the fact that lebron was a better and more impactful player that year.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Do you not understand a single thing I posted?


Do you not understand what this means?


look up fool i broke down your response section by section and addressed all of your points.

[TheMan]

:oldlol: They had 58 wins dumbass.
62>58

Too easy

Puts in pocket

Next

[red1]

look up fool i broke down your response section by section and addressed all of your points.
No you didn't. You didn't understand anything so I requoted it because the answers to your questions are already there.

[clipps]

Inb4 Chris Paul wins the MVP this year gets called the worst because his stats aren't as eye popping as Durant or LeBron.

[red1]

62>58

Too easy

Puts in pocket

Next
If michael jordan is on a team that wins 58 games and scottie pippen is on a team that wins 62 games does that mean that scottie pippen is a better player than jordan?

jordan>pippen

Too easy

Puts in pocket

Next

[hitmanyr2k]

Except Dwight.

Nope, I'm including Dwight too. Despite playing in the worst big man era of all-time this guy hasn't dominated the league like he's supposed to. Dwight played two great months (January and February) out of that entire season. If Dwight puts up those kind of numbers ALL YEAR not only does his team probably win more games he's also the hands down the MVP. Two months don't make an MVP season though.

[Whoah10115]

No. Rose deserved the mvp more but this is not true. I understand why they gave the mvp to rose and I understand and agree with why they penalize lebron for having wade on his team. None of that changes the fact that lebron was a better and more impactful player that year.



Rose was a better scorer. Lebron scored more but his team also a more offensive team. Rose was scoring at will. Lebron is the better passer and playmaker, but he has a tendency to overdominate the ball and freeze out other players. Rose dominated the ball out of necessity and carried the team on that end.


If Lebron had played as well as Rose, then the Heat would have had a better record. They still had too much quality in other places to not make up for it. I could argue Wade above Lebron. And honestly, I think he was better.


Lebron was definitely a better defender than Rose, but up until that point his defense had been a bit overstated.

[TheMan]

damn, the haters are still going strong, makes the return that much better!
Rose haters are LBJ stans. I have no idea why they hate Rose so much. I have no problem saying LBJ is the best player today, yet they like to think Rose is a glorified scrub.

Fvck em, haters gon hate:lol

[KyrieTheFuture]

Dwight had:
23, 14.1, 1.4, 1.4, 2.4, 3.6 on 59% FG and 59% from the line (best since rookie season) along with being the DPOY

Rose had:
24.1, 3.9, 7.4, 1.0, 0.6, 3.3 on 44.5% shooting and 33 from 3 and 86 from the line


Dwight had less talented teammates and coaching (although I do believe SVG is a good coach). He deserved it that year.

[red1]

Listen. Rose was worthy of the mvp that year. I never argued that at all. I understand that the mvp doesnt have to be the most impactful player in the court. Thats not how the award works or else it would go to the best player in the league every year. What I want you guys to understand is that forgetting everything else, lbj was a more impactful and overall superior player. That doesnt diminish rose in any way. Arguing that rose was a better and more impactful player is just flat out wrong.

[Papaya Petee]

Yes, Miami had two players than him and it showed come playoff time, shit Wade had better numbers on the year then Rose.

25\7\5\2\1 50% shooting better defense

vs

24\8\4\2\0 45% shooting worse defense

[imdaman99]

Aw, I say one or two good things about Kobe every now and then and that upsets you.

I also give props to Lebron and other players all the time.

But once again another quality thread from Lebron's son.







I bet it made you happy when I called you Lebron's son :yaohappy:
i think he is mostly mad that he can't remember how it felt being in lebrons b@lls@ck about 14 yrs ago. poor guy :lol

[TheMan]

If michael jordan is on a team that wins 58 games and scottie pippen is on a team that wins 62 games does that mean that scottie pippen is a better player than jordan?

jordan>pippen

Too easy

Puts in pocket

Next
:facepalm

The MVP isn't given to the overall best player, dimwit! In that scenario, Pippen gets my vote.

[red1]

Rose was a better scorer. Lebron scored more but his team also a more offensive team. Rose was scoring at will. Lebron is the better passer and playmaker, but he has a tendency to overdominate the ball and freeze out other players. Rose dominated the ball out of necessity and carried the team on that end.


If Lebron had played as well as Rose, then the Heat would have had a better record. They still had too much quality in other places to not make up for it. I could argue Wade above Lebron. And honestly, I think he was better.


Lebron was definitely a better defender than Rose, but up until that point his defense had been a bit overstated.
You need to get off this. Lebron played better. And he was a better scorer. The bolded is not true either.

[nathanjizzle]

Dwight had:
23, 14.1, 1.4, 1.4, 2.4, 3.6 on 59% FG and 59% from the line (best since rookie season) along with being the DPOY

Rose had:
24.1, 3.9, 7.4, 1.0, 0.6, 3.3 on 44.5% shooting and 33 from 3 and 86 from the line


Dwight had less talented teammates and coaching (although I do believe SVG is a good coach). He deserved it that year.

what was orlando magics record that year? and how far did dwight take his team in the playoffs. LOL first round knockout. rose carried his team in the 4th to win many games, dwight filled stat sheets.

[red1]

:facepalm

The MVP isn't given to the overall best player, dimwit!
Can you even f*cking read? I want to go and do shit stop wasting my time covering the same f*cking shit over and over


Listen. Rose was worthy of the mvp that year. I never argued that at all. I understand that the mvp doesnt have to be the most impactful player in the court. Thats not how the award works or else it would go to the best player in the league every year. What I want you guys to understand is that forgetting everything else, lbj was a more impactful and overall superior player. That doesnt diminish rose in any way. Arguing that rose was a better and more impactful player is just flat out wrong.

[red1]

Yes, Miami had two players than him and it showed come playoff time, shit Wade had better numbers on the year then Rose.

25\7\5\2\1 50% shooting better defense

vs

24\8\4\2\0 45% shooting worse defense
wade was also a superior player that year and Im not even looking at the stats

[nathanjizzle]

Listen. Rose was worthy of the mvp that year. I never argued that at all. I understand that the mvp doesnt have to be the most impactful player in the court. Thats not how the award works or else it would go to the best player in the league every year. What I want you guys to understand is that forgetting everything else, lbj was a more impactful and overall superior player. That doesnt diminish rose in any way. Arguing that rose was a better and more impactful player is just flat out wrong.


you clearly did not watch bulls games that season. your just guessing how d rose played:facepalm

did you check out my stat with rose and lebron vs the top 6 teams in the nba that season, if you did how can you even say lebron deserved it more than rose.

[KyrieTheFuture]

what was orlando magics record that year? and how far did dwight take his team in the playoffs. LOL first round knockout. rose carried his team in the 4th to win many games, dwight filled stat sheets.
Lol yea cause Rose really dominated in the playoffs too right? I forgot shooting under 40% and less than 25% from 3 while being embarrassed left and right against Miami was a great performance.

OH and lets compare him to mr unclutch himself LeBron James...according to 82games clutch stats adjusted for 48 mins Derrick Rose shot worse from the field and 3 while being 5% from the line...not much of a difference between him and the most unclutch star of alltime but thats not it. Rose averaged SEVEN TO's a game compared to 4 for lebron and 3 for Durant.

And as long as were using BS "clutch" as a measurement...Dwight shot 72% during clutch time but that's fine bro keep saying Rose deserves it smfh.

[TheMan]

Pretty sure that if Rose had Wade and Bosh and LBJ had Boozer and Bogans, Rose' team would've beat LBJ's team that year...

[red1]

you clearly did not watch bulls games that season. your just guessing how d rose played:facepalm

did you check out my stat with rose and lebron vs the top 6 teams in the nba that season, if you did how can you even say lebron deserved it more than rose.
I caught a lot of bulls games, no lie rose is actually one of my favs and one of the few guys I consistently check for. The issue is that these posters are delusionally arguing that rose was a better player than lbj for the 2011 season and that shit is so obviously wrong that I needed to respond. Anyways Im out. Markmadsen and TheMan you are both retarded liars and from this moment forth you guys have ZERO crediblity in my eyes. Peace.

[Pointguard]

A lot cases can be made against Rose:

1. He is too young, so not sure about his leadership.
This is exactly why he should have won it. His leadership was on a different planet from the other contenders. Ask the Bulls fans here who was the most respected Bull by teammates since Jordan left. Seasoned Boozer the only other guy who was a star on the team, would apologize to Rose after making a bad play. Thibes talked about Roses leadership all year. What other contender at that time has shown since then even good leadership when on a new team? Lebron got it together the next year - during the year.

I dogged Dwight about his leadership then, and we really see it now. Dwight shouldn't have been mentioned because his play and his team play went south when it counted most. They were a game and a half behind Chicago March first. In a month and a half they were 9 down. When they played Chicago during this collapse, Chicago beat them twice in one game by getting Dwight suspended for the next loss as well. Lebron and Wade just couldn't get it together that year - neither one of them was the leader and lost a lot of games because the team was leaderless. As to how Rose, on a brand new team that couldn't run a pick roll, and without much offensive help managed to win more games than them and Bosh was totally bizarre. And pretty much is a huge claim for MVP itself.

Dirk was never the leader of his team and his numbers were ok, not special in anyway and he had to be the worse rebounding PF in the league - well at least starter. Rose had to do way more, with far less experienced players than Lebron/Wade/Dwight/Dirk. Despite his team being decimated by injuries he won more than super vet teams (Dallas/Miami/Celtics), super talented teams (Celtics/Miami/Lakers/OKC) and teams that played with each other for years (Lakers/Dallas/Celtics/Spurs). Rose team didn't have super talent outside of Rose, was new to each other and coach and their system, faced a lot of injuries - much more than any of the ones named above.


4. The team's identity was defense, and Rose was not the best defender on that team, actually he is not even top 3.
They play great one on one defense. Rose thoroughly outplayed every other PG that year except Westbrook (which was even). Really outplayed the elite PG's to an extensive degree and really shut down Rondo/Paul/Williams/Nash. All good defensive teams need a closer and Rose was definitely the best that year. What more could he have done. He had way more on him than all of them without an experienced team. Dwight had a team built around him and they didn't have a Dwight identity. He wasn't even integrated into the team - he was exactly like he is with the Lakers now.

[Cangri]

Pretty sure that if Rose had Wade and Bosh and LBJ had Boozer and Bogans, Rose' team would've beat LBJ's team that year...
Yeah because that's the reason Lebron played GREAT in that series and Rose played like sht:facepalm

Rose couldn't score when Lebron was on him, he got shut down.

[SCdac]

Rose's MVP was well deserved.

No boozer in October/November and Bulls went 9-6, Rose averaging 22 ppg, 9 apg, 5 rpg, and 1+ spg. No Noah and the Bulls were 23-8. The team never lost 2 games in a row all season and Rose played every game but 1.

The fact that Dwight was second in voting (who lead a team that went from 59 wins/Finals ---> 59 wins/ECF ---> 52 wins/First round exit) says everything to me that Rose was deserving. Dwight may have improved that season but there's no correlation to winning like there was with Rose in 2011.

[I<3NBA]

looking at the Bulls' record now, we can say he was indeed MVP of that team.

and yes, I'm a Rose hater.

[TheMan]

I caught a lot of bulls games, no lie rose is actually one of my favs and one of the few guys I consistently check for. The issue is that these posters are delusionally arguing that rose was a better player than lbj for the 2011 season and that shit is so obviously wrong that I needed to respond. Anyways Im out. Markmadsen and TheMan you are both retarded liars and from this moment forth you guys have ZERO crediblity in my eyes. Peace.
First, I never said Rose was better than LBJ, you are bad at reading comprehension. I said Rose was more valuable to his team getting 62 wins and thus the MVP than LBJ was in Miami getting 58 wins. After LBJ, the Heat still had a top five player and an All Star.

Rose was more valuable to his team's success=MVP

second, I don't give a fakk what you think of me.

third, you have zero credibility in my eyes, too.

[SCdac]

Wasn't solely the media raving about Rose btw, he caught the attention of fellow players, coaches, retired players, etc.


"Once again, I think they have got the MVP of the league. That kid has come into his own. He has matured quite a bit. When he came into the league, everybody said he had speed, he could get to the rim, but he can't shoot. Now he can shoot—the three, as well as pull-up shots. He has very few flaws. I'm pretty sure the next thing they are going to say is that he doesn't play good defense, or he can't handle a double-team. Time will tell. The kid works hard and I think he's a great piece for this franchise to rebuild with."
-- Michael Jordan on Derrick Rose

"Chicago's Derrick Rose is clearly the MVP in my mind. I've had the opportunity to watch him play every night and I'm very high on the way he's developed as a leader. Now, his team is playing towards a 60-win season. He's been spectacular."
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose

"Derrick has been tremendous down the stretch of games. What separates him from the other contenders for MVP is when you look at the Bulls' overall success. His winning attitude has become contagious. He's made great strides defensively, giving the same effort on that end of the floor as he does offensively. He gets better every night because he's so competitive. He stepped up on defense and his team has followed. That's the definition of leadership."
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose

"Derrick is playing extremely well. He's definitely probably the MVP of this league. This guy had 30 (points) and 17 (assists against Milwaukee on March 26). He can affect this game by scoring and also by his teammates. He is just going to get better, which is going to be a lot of fun to watch. I think he has all of the tools to be one of the best that played the game."
-- 10-time NBA All-Star Jason Kidd

"Derrick has been phenomenal this year. He continues to grow. He's not only a terrific athlete, but he has turned into a terrific basketball player and he's a great kid. He's a willing learner [and] teammate, and I have nothing but great things to say about him."
-- Steve Nash

"He has stepped up and is now one of the best players in the league. I think he is a worthy MVP this year. But regardless, he's a terrific player and will have a sensational career."
-- Steve Nash

"LeBron has won the last two [MVP awards]. He is my teammate, but Derrick has had a phenomenal season. Just looking at what he has done with the team and their record, how improved they are as a team and how much improved he is as a player. I think it's close, but I think I would give it to Derrick if I were a voter."
-- Miami Heat forward Chris Bosh

"He's playing well, like he's the best point guard in the league and the best player in the league. He's the most valuable player if you really think about it. If you take him out of the lineup, there is no telling what you get."
-- Miami Heat forward Chris Bosh

"Derrick is having a great year. I don't have a vote, but of course Derrick is one of the guys who is a front-runner. He's got to finish out this year strong. Of course, I believe LeBron is a front-runner as well. Those two guys are the leaders of the MVP run. I'm going to be biased and choose my teammate. There's no question about it."
-- Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade

"Like I always keep saying, with team success comes individual accolades. D-Rose is having an unbelievable season. He's doing everything and more to help this team be a contender. There is no way you can mention the MVP race without mentioning his name."
-- Miami Heat forward LeBron James

"I think the sky is the limit for him. You see now just with the improvement he's made off his jump shot from last year to this year how much his game has really gone to another level. I think he's just scratching the surface. He's realizing now what a jump shot can do. Hopefully, he'll continue to work on it and become a pure shooter."
-- Kobe Bryant

"Hard working, good looking, no chest thumping, and modest demeanor; just a class act. All of that on top of his phenomenal play. He has taken a monster leap this year. What's really great about him is that he seems to love the pressure in putting his team on his back. He has the character and the demeanor to do that. Superstars have that character and leadership gene."
-- San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich

"I would imagine that just out of the blue that Derrick Rose is going to be the guy. That team is what, first in the East right now, or tied? He's literally vaulted that team up on his shoulders by [Carlos] Boozer being out the first month and a half or so. I would say just on pure ‘one guy', individually, he's probably going to get a lot of votes."
-- Los Angeles Lakers head coach Phil Jackson

"I think [it's] Derrick Rose. What he's done for that team, with all the injuries they have and them being first in the Eastern Conference -- they're playing some really good basketball."
-- Two-time MVP (2009, 2010) and seven-time NBA All-Star LeBron James

"Right now, statistically, it's probably one of the best years I've had. But we'll see. The media kind of controls it. You've got some guys here that have done their job also. At one point, I thought Dirk [Nowitzki] was also [worthy] until he got hurt. But Derrick Rose definitely has gotten a lot of the exposure and a lot of the media attention because of the work he's done. He's playing some unbelievable basketball."
-- Two-time MVP (2009, 2010) and seven-time NBA All-Star LeBron James

"You look at what he's done with his team, it's tough to argue D-Rose isn't the MVP."
-- Minnesota Timberwolves forward Kevin Love

http://www.nba.com/bulls/d-rose-mvp.html

[TheMan]

Yeah because that's the reason Lebron played GREAT in that series and Rose played like sht:facepalm

Rose couldn't score when Lebron was on him, he got shut down.
The whole Heat team concentrating their defensive focus on Rose and making the other players beat them...

Rose is a young cat, still learning the game...

[dannywpt]

Honestly, what is everyone bitching about? Rose had a great season, he lit up nearly every arena he visited with mesmerizing plays and carried his team to the best record in the league. Don't look to hard into every statistic available from that season. He was hardly "the worst MVP ever".

[Kiddlovesnets]

In terms of regular season MVP, Id say perhaps since his impact wasnt that much. The Bulls could still be a decent team without him. But when playoffs time comes they need Rose, otherwise they drop a series against the likes of Philadelphia 76ers.

[TheMan]

Wasn't solely the media raving about Rose btw, he caught the attention of fellow players, coaches, retired players, etc.



http://www.nba.com/bulls/d-rose-mvp.html
/thread

to the OP, that fakkit silk can suck it.

[Cangri]

The whole Heat team concentrating their defensive focus on Rose and making the other players beat them...

Rose is a young cat, still learning the game...
Yeah right, I remember Lebron guarding him alone and shutting him down.

[Graviton]

Yeah right, I remember Lebron guarding him alone and shutting him down.
Yea, by your logic I remember Marion shutting down Lebron. Poor Lebron couldn't do anything against that defensive monster.

[ShaqAttack3234]

what was orlando magics record that year? and how far did dwight take his team in the playoffs. LOL first round knockout. rose carried his team in the 4th to win many games, dwight filled stat sheets.

Just shut up, because your ignorance disgusts me. Dwight absolutely carried his team at BOTH ends. He MADE the 2011 Magic an elite defensive team and a respectable offensive team. Rose HAD a DOMINANT defensive team and rebounding team behind him. There's no comparison in impact. Absolutely none.

You want to know what Dwight's teammates shot in the playoffs and what Dwight did?

Dwight- 27 ppg, 63 FG%
Nelson- 13.2 ppg, 37.8 FG%
Jason Richardson- 10 ppg, 33.3 FG% (suspended 1 game)
Hedo- 9.2 ppg, 29.4 FG%
Arenas- 8.6 ppg, 42.9 FG% (missed 1 game)
Bass- 7.2 ppg, 42.1 FG%
Redick- 6.7 ppg, 35.7 FG%
Anderson- 4.7 ppg, 26.7 FG% (24.5 mpg)

Rose with that kind of help is a first round sweep, actually, a team with a lottery pick. Check out how Dwight's Magic did without him in 2011, 2012 or this year vs how Rose's Bulls have done the last two years before you go on your biased nonsense about records.

[Myth]

The only reason Rose would go down as one of the worst is if he never comes back 100%. He could have a long career at a lower than MVP level, and people will remember that version of him rather than his MVP season.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Just shut up, because your ignorance disgusts me. Dwight absolutely carried his team at BOTH ends. He MADE the 2011 Magic an elite defensive team and a respectable offensive team. Rose HAD a DOMINANT defensive team and rebounding team behind him. There's no comparison in impact. Absolutely none.

You want to know what Dwight's teammates shot in the playoffs and what Dwight did?

Dwight- 27 ppg, 63 FG%
Nelson- 13.2 ppg, 37.8 FG%
Jason Richardson- 10 ppg, 33.3 FG% (suspended 1 game)
Hedo- 9.2 ppg, 29.4 FG%
Arenas- 8.6 ppg, 42.9 FG% (missed 1 game)
Bass- 7.2 ppg, 42.1 FG%
Redick- 6.7 ppg, 35.7 FG%
Anderson- 4.7 ppg, 26.7 FG% (24.5 mpg)

Rose with that kind of help is a first round sweep, actually, a team with a lottery pick. Check out how Dwight's Magic did without him in 2011, 2012 or this year vs how Rose's Bulls have done the last two years before you go on your biased nonsense about records.

He's not gonna respond to either of us he can't back himself up. At least I'm not the only one who thinks Dwight was outta this world that year :cheers:

[Shepseskaf]

It's no travesty. Shaq should have two but it's no travesty and it shouldn't be a lifetime achievement.


What exactly did Shaq do better than Nash in 2005? Statistically, he was well below his average and did it in the BS East. Nash was responsible for the biggest turnaround ever, in the West, more than doubling their win total.
No, he was not. Nash was a big part of the Suns' turnaround, but was hardly the only factor. The previous year, due to injury and internal turmoil, the team seriously underperformed. The stars all aligned -- people got healthy and Pringles' system worked to perfection.

There has never been an MVP in the modern era with numbers even close to as weak as Nash's were when he was "awarded" two MVPs. Just look them up.

[KOBE143]

Rose MVP was more deserving than LeBrick rigged MVP..

[tmacattack33]

Rose MVP was more deserving than LeBrick rigged MVP..

:roll:

Yep, it was rigged three times. Including two years where Lebron was the consensus pick and the voting wasn't even close. :lol

[hitmanyr2k]

No, he was not. Nash was a big part of the Suns' turnaround, but was hardly the only factor. The previous year, due to injury and internal turmoil, the team seriously underperformed. The stars all aligned -- people got healthy and Pringles' system worked to perfection.

There has never been an MVP in the modern era with numbers even close to as weak as Nash's were when he was "awarded" two MVPs. Just look them up.

Without Nash does D'Antoni even have a "system"? Nash was the engine that made it all go.

[Shepseskaf]

Without Nash does D'Antoni even have a "system"? Nash was the engine that made it all go.
If Nash didn't have a healthy Amare to deliver the ball to, the season wouldn't have worked out quite so well.

Again, Nash was a huge part of the turnaround but to give him all of the credit is misstating the situation.

[Whoah10115]

No, he was not. Nash was a big part of the Suns' turnaround, but was hardly the only factor. The previous year, due to injury and internal turmoil, the team seriously underperformed. The stars all aligned -- people got healthy and Pringles' system worked to perfection.

There has never been an MVP in the modern era with numbers even close to as weak as Nash's were when he was "awarded" two MVPs. Just look them up.



I couldn't care less about his numbers, because his game was clearly beyond it.


No, the stars did not align. That team was garbage when Kidd was traded for Marbury and they then had a good year where they won (I think) 44 games. Marbury went right back down the tubes. They had nothing to sustain being a playoff team.


The main thing that team had was Nash. You take him out and they win half of their games. The Heat without Shaq are still better than .500. The Suns had Amare playing like a beast and they had Marion, but they didn't have anyone like Wade. And they didn't play in the East. They were still ahead of Miami.


Nash, Iverson, Garnett, Nowitzki. All those guys had better seasons. Iverson's team was crap and so was KG's and he unfortunately missed the playoffs by a game in the West. I could argue Duncan and I still like Wade that year. The biggest thing O'Neal had was hype, of which he was a major contributor. I can understand the argument, to a point. I can understand brushing off these other guys, to a point. I can understand wanting to give him a second. But people talk like he had stolen from him. His basketball was not as impressive as Nash's. And he absolutely did not impact his team the way Nash impacted the Suns. There can be no question about that. D'Antoni did a terrific job with that team. They had other guys play great. But Miami wasn't a one-man show. The guy most responsible for the turnaround in Phoenix was Steve Nash. His team improved 33 games to Miami's 14. Arguing so fiercely against Nash is due to a late-career peak and slurping Shaq's lack of multiple MVP's.

[hitmanyr2k]

If Nash didn't have a healthy Amare to deliver the ball to, the season wouldn't have worked out quite so well.

Again, Nash was a huge part of the turnaround but to give him all of the credit is misstating the situation.

Nash didn't have Amare at all in 2006 to deliver to the ball to and that season was almost no different than 2005. It was Nash who made that team go no matter who was around him. He was truly D'Antoni's "system".

[Shepseskaf]

I couldn't care less about his numbers, because his game was clearly beyond it.
What kind of stupid logic is this? In the long tradition of the MVP, numbers have always mattered a great deal.

In short, not only was the winner supposed to be from one of the best teams in a given year, he also was statistically dominant.

Unfortunately for your argument, numbers do matter -- and 15.5/11.5 don't even come close to cutting it, in light of previous and later winners of the award.

As to the rest of your post -- blah, blah, blah -- typing words, but saying nothing.

[ballinhun8]

What I don't get is why people respond to the OP when he's an obvious troll.

[Shepseskaf]

Nash didn't have Amare at all in 2006 to deliver to the ball to and that season was almost no different than 2005. It was Nash who made that team go no matter who was around him. He was truly D'Antoni's "system".
What does this have to do with anything at all? So, Nash had essentially the same numbers in consecutive years. He shouldn't have "won" the MVP in either of them.

Making the team go is a typical function of a point guard. Nash did a very good job of facilitating. The effort was simply not enough to vault him up to the MVP level. The numbers don't lie.

[Whoah10115]

What does this have to do with anything at all? So, Nash had essentially the same numbers in consecutive years. He shouldn't have "won" the MVP in either of them.

Making the team go is a typical function of a point guard. Nash did a very good job of facilitating. The effort was simply not enough to vault him up to the MVP level. The numbers don't lie.



The numbers lie. You take out Nash and they're unlikely to be at .500. You take out Shaq and they're a 44-45 win team. It's just ridiculous. His impact was greater than Shaq's and it's remarkably obvious. If you were giving me some intricate stuff that I wasn't considering then OK, but you're not. All the obvious stuff is on Nash's side. His team was way worse and they ended up better the next year, in the tougher conference. If you take him out, they clearly lose more than Miami does. Shaq brought 14 wins and Nash brought 33. Nash is not the only ingredient, but Shaq was hardly the only thing that happened to Miami that year.

[vinsane01]

Nash didn't have Amare at all in 2006 to deliver to the ball to and that season was almost no different than 2005. It was Nash who made that team go no matter who was around him. He was truly D'Antoni's "system".

Agree with this. I think nash deserved his 1st mvp. He made that suns team an instant contender. His play making skills and leadership made others around him maximize their potential. His second is debatable though.

[Whoah10115]

What kind of stupid logic is this? In the long tradition of the MVP, numbers have always mattered a great deal.

In short, not only was the winner supposed to be from one of the best teams in a given year, he also was statistically dominant.

Unfortunately for your argument, numbers do matter -- and 15.5/11.5 don't even come close to cutting it, in light of previous and later winners of the award.

As to the rest of your post -- blah, blah, blah -- typing words, but saying nothing.



I'm only talking the truth. You look at numbers and that won't give you any answers. You watch the season and you see who the best player was.

[hitmanyr2k]

What does this have to do with anything at all? So, Nash had essentially the same numbers in consecutive years. He shouldn't have "won" the MVP in either of them.

Making the team go is a typical function of a point guard. Nash did a very good job of facilitating. The effort was simply not enough to vault him up to the MVP level. The numbers don't lie.

His numbers didn't stay the same. They simply got better across the board :oldlol: Scoring average went up by 3 points while assists stayed the same and he was more efficient in all aspects (higher FG%, 3pt%, and FT%) even with the increased load. When you lose Amare to a season ending injury and Joe Johnson to free agency and they're replaced by nobodies your team shouldn't be one of the top seeds in the West and finding their way back to the WCF on top of that. That's why he got MVP.

[Shepseskaf]

I'm only talking the truth. You look at numbers and that won't give you any answers. You watch the season and you see who the best player was.
:facepalm

That was abysmal. You have to do better.

By that logic, every subjective fan -- many with agendas -- should be able to "watch the season" and see who the best player was?

That idiotic methodology would produce many "best players" for any season, and hardly be the basis for the objective selection of an MVP.

That's why numbers matter.

[FKAri]

What does this have to do with anything at all? So, Nash had essentially the same numbers in consecutive years. He shouldn't have "won" the MVP in either of them.

Making the team go is a typical function of a point guard. Nash did a very good job of facilitating. The effort was simply not enough to vault him up to the MVP level. The numbers don't lie.

Nash deserved at least one of those MVP's. You either didn't watch those Suns teams or have some kind of bias to say otherwise. The first season he won MVP was a similar storyline to Rose where it was just such a great turnaround for which he was the catalyst. He was even better in the 2nd MVP season, where it was hard not to give him the award since the earlier season had already set a precedent. Steve Nash on the Suns was in many ways the definition of an MVP. That team was built maybe to a fault entirely around him. It was like Allen Iverson on the Sixers in terms of how much it depended on one player carrying the team. When Steve Nash didn't play the team would fall apart.

The way MVP is defined is strange imo and it shouldn't be this way. I think it should be the player that is the most valuable asset in the league. Which is (approximately but not exactly the same as), the best player in the league.

[Whoah10115]

:facepalm

That was abysmal. You have to do better.

By that logic, every subjective fan -- many with agendas -- should be able to "watch the season" and see who the best player was?

That idiotic methodology would produce many "best players" for any season, and hardly be the basis for the objective selection of an MVP.

That's why numbers matter.



Umm, no. You're the one who clearly has to do better. I was trusting that I wasn't asking a moron to watch.


Yeah, when you're evaluating who you think is better, you should actually WATCH and make your own decision, instead of relying on stats to tell you. You can reference stats and they play a part, but if what I just said is too much for you then you just conceded the argument.


I'm not talking to you like you're stupid. Assuming you aren't, then yes my way is the way to judge.

[Shepseskaf]

His numbers didn't stay the same. They simply got better across the board :oldlol:
No, they didn't. His assists dropped from 11.5 to 10.5.

Still a nice number, but 18.8/10.5 is the second weakest set of MVP numbers in the modern era -- only eclipsed by the previous year.

[Shepseskaf]

Umm, no. You're the one who clearly has to do better. I was trusting that I wasn't asking a moron to watch.


Yeah, when you're evaluating who you think is better, you should actually WATCH and make your own decision, instead of relying on stats to tell you. You can reference stats and they play a part, but if what I just said is too much for you then you just conceded the argument.


I'm not talking to you like you're stupid. Assuming you aren't, then yes my way is the way to judge.
:roll:

A true moron calling someone else "stupid". Don't that beat all?

I watch games, and have for a long time. I understand that the subjective and the objective have to both be considered when award time comes around.

In Nash's case, the subjective was given far too much weight, while the objective (stats) were pushed to the side.

Sad.

[Shepseskaf]

Nash deserved at least one of those MVP's. You either didn't watch those Suns teams or have some kind of bias to say otherwise.
Yes, I did watch the Suns that season. I thoroughly enjoyed doing so, but I understood that Nash's part in the situation -- while certainly noteworthy -- did not engender the awarding of one MVP, never mind two.

[Bigsmoke]

so 2011 Derrick Rose was worst that 1999 Karl Malone?

whatever.

[hitmanyr2k]

If numbers mattered so much then Jason Kidd wouldn't have been a serious contender for the award in 2002 with these numbers 14.7ppg (39% shooting) 9.9 assists, and 7.3 rebounds on a 52 win team when he finished #2 in voting behind Duncan. He was a liability shooting the ball but sometimes leadership and impact account for more than numbers.

[FKAri]

Yes, I did watch the Suns that season. I thoroughly enjoyed doing so, but I understood that Nash's part in the situation -- while certainly noteworthy -- did not engender the awarding of one MVP, never mind two.

At no point was Steve Nash the best player in the NBA. But the way MVP is defined he was certainly a very strong MVP candidate for several years.

[Shepseskaf]

If numbers mattered so much then Jason Kidd wouldn't have been a serious contender for the award in 2002 with these numbers 14.7ppg (39% shooting) 9.9 assists, and 7.3 rebounds on a 52 win team when he finished #2 in voting behind Duncan. He was a liability shooting the ball but sometimes leadership and impact account for more than numbers.
Notice that Kidd didn't actually win the award that year -- and he's also a much higher magnitude of player than Nash ever was.

[SCdac]

You want to know what Dwight's teammates shot in the playoffs and what Dwight did?

Dwight- 27 ppg, 63 FG%
Nelson- 13.2 ppg, 37.8 FG%
Jason Richardson- 10 ppg, 33.3 FG% (suspended 1 game)
Hedo- 9.2 ppg, 29.4 FG%
Arenas- 8.6 ppg, 42.9 FG% (missed 1 game)
Bass- 7.2 ppg, 42.1 FG%
Redick- 6.7 ppg, 35.7 FG%
Anderson- 4.7 ppg, 26.7 FG% (24.5 mpg)


It's worth noting that the Hawks deliberately gave Howard single-coverage in that series, and it worked supremely to crush the magic's perimeter game.

Despite Howard's offensive abilities to finish, he became flustered. In 6 games against ATL, Dwight totaled 3 assists and 33 turnovers (5.5 turnovers a game).

Rose averaged 30 points and 10 assists to beat the Hawks a series later, required more defensive attention via his style of play, and just impacted the game more regardless of Dwight's defensive presence.

Rose saw doubles, and the whole team collapsed on him at times. He's so fast, he picked (and rolled) Atlanta apart, he slashed into the paint, he knocked down mid and long range jumpers, and most importantly he created for others.

Rose just dictated the offensive tempo for his team in a much more impressive (winning) fashion than Howard in the same post-season (not saying Howard hasn't been great before, particularly in 09). The Magic, despite Howard's "dominance", struggled to break 90 ppg and it would be dishonest to look past Howard's deficiencies as the offensive-cog and not acknowledge his ongoing turnover/fouling problem. The Bulls obviously had a better team from top to bottom, I agree, but this does explain the team's numbers to an extent.

[Shepseskaf]

At no point was Steve Nash the best player in the NBA. But the way MVP is defined he was certainly a very strong MVP candidate for several years.
Strong candidate, yes. He shouldn't, however, have been an award winner -- not once, and certainly not twice.

[Whoah10115]

It's worth noting that the Hawks deliberately gave Howard single-coverage in that series, and it worked supremely to crush the magic's perimeter game.

Despite Howard's offensive abilities to finish, he became flustered. In 6 games against ATL, Dwight totaled 3 assists and 33 turnovers (5.5 turnovers a game).

Rose averaged 30 points and 10 assists to beat the Hawks a series later, required more defensive attention via his style of play, and just impacted the game more regardless of Dwight's defensive presence.

Rose saw doubles, and the whole team collapsed on him at times. He's so fast, he picked (and rolled) Atlanta apart, he slashed into the paint, he knocked down mid and long range jumpers, and most importantly he created for others.

Rose just dictated the offensive tempo for his team in a much more impressive (winning) fashion than Howard in the same post-season (not saying Howard hasn't been great before, particularly in 09). The Magic, despite Howard's "dominance", struggled to break 90 ppg and it would be dishonest to look past Howard's deficiencies as the offensive-cog and not acknowledge his ongoing turnover/fouling problem. The Bulls obviously had a better team from top to bottom, I agree, but this does explain the team's numbers to an extent.



Well Howard was incredible in that series, on both sides of the ball. The way his teammates played was an indictment on them. They didn't have him getting them open looks all day and they all (save for JJ, if if recall) played like garbage.

[Whoah10115]

:roll:

A true moron calling someone else "stupid". Don't that beat all?

I watch games, and have for a long time. I understand that the subjective and the objective have to both be considered when award time comes around.

In Nash's case, the subjective was given far too much weight, while the objective (stats) were pushed to the side.

Sad.



I didn't call you stupid so watch your mouth.


Don't give me stupid responses and then come back and tell me you know the difference. If you disagree, disagree. But don't talk like a dumbass. If you believe there is a prerequisite with stats then good for you.

[NumberSix]

Derrick Rose is an overrated fraud.

[Shepseskaf]

I didn't call you stupid so watch your mouth.


Don't give me stupid responses and then come back and tell me you know the difference. If you disagree, disagree. But don't talk like a dumbass. If you believe there is a prerequisite with stats then good for you.
You hinted at it, though - and you did say "moron", which is pretty much the same thing.

Nothing I posted was hard to understand. Statistical dominance has always been a major component of the MVP. If you fail to realize that, then shame on you.

[SCdac]

Well Howard was incredible in that series, on both sides of the ball. The way his teammates played was an indictment on them. They didn't have him getting them open looks all day and they all (save for JJ, if if recall) played like garbage.

Individually Dwight has some great things going on, but the point is the offense was not thriving around him once teams dared him to score and refused to double him. We still see the same strategies working against him today. There were times where the announcers flat out said "going into Dwight in the post play after play is not going to work", I think against Charlotte the year earlier.

Howard is not only turnover prone but he lacks the court vision and playmaking post-skills that separate the elite from the rest. As mentioned, he averaged 5.5 turnovers a game against the Hawks, had a team-leading 21% turnover percentage, and went 4 games in the playoffs without dishing an assist. Can you really say with a straight face he was "incredible"? I mean, one of the only games the Magic won was when Howard played 29 minutes and scored 8 points.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I love D-Rose but it was a weak year. there was no other candidate. I wish they did Most outstanding player instead of most valuable.

[Whoah10115]

Individually Dwight has some great things going on, but the point is the offense was not thriving around him once teams dared him to score and refused to double him. We still see the same strategies working against him today. There were times where the announcers flat out said "going into Dwight in the post play after play is not going to work", I think against Charlotte the year earlier.

Howard is not only turnover prone but he lacks the court vision and playmaking post-skills that separate the elite from the rest. As mentioned, he averaged 5.5 turnovers a game against the Hawks, had a team-leading 21% turnover percentage, and went 4 games in the playoffs without dishing an assist. Can you really say with a straight face he was "incredible"? I mean, one of the only games the Magic won was when Howard played 29 minutes and scored 8 points.



Yes, I can.


What the Hawks did was show up the other players. Everyone had individual coverage. No one was able to play even decent basketball. Howard is not a good passer, but he's a smart enough player and a team player. His assists had nothing to do with the passes he didn't make. Those guys played atrocious basketball. And if you remember, Howard got worse as the series went on because it wore on him. Defensively, he was especially terrific in that series. I was literally watching a lot of 1v5. Other than Redick, who played with anything?

[secund2nun]

Rose is the worst mvp ever. Kobe is 2nd. Iverson and Nash are tied 3rd.

[97 bulls]

Yeah right, I remember Lebron guarding him alone and shutting him down.
He did for a few possessions. But what the Heat did to Rose was a team effort. This video shows how the Heat played Rose in the fourth quarter.They religiously trapped Rose. The notion that James stopped Rose on his own is a myth



http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=plpp&v=Ks7ZQULwAxU

[SCdac]

Yes, I can.


What the Hawks did was show up the other players. Everyone had individual coverage. No one was able to play even decent basketball. Howard is not a good passer, but he's a smart enough player and a team player. His assists had nothing to do with the passes he didn't make. Those guys played atrocious basketball. And if you remember, Howard got worse as the series went on because it wore on him. Defensively, he was especially terrific in that series. I was literally watching a lot of 1v5. Other than Redick, who played with anything?

As for the bolded, "smart enough player", we must be watching completely different players. Howard seems lacking in basketball IQ department and makes dumb decisions often. He's hardly somebody to be described as a heady player. He turns the ball over as much as swingmen and point guards do despite having the ball much less.

As for the last sentence, It's hard to play up to par when your best player isn't drawing best player-attention, nor does said player create the way elite bigs like Shaq or Duncan did. Compared to Derrick Rose, who's offense is elite, dynamic, and generates more opportunities, Howard's offense is more predictable, albeit very efficient. He's going to score, but he's not making teams pay for not throwing double and triple teams at him.

That defensive approach Atlanta took is exactly what San Antonio used to do to Amare Stoudamire and the Suns - close out on the shooters and try and make Amare do work. It spelled doom for both teams, Phoenix and Orlando, teams that were three-point shooting teams predominantly.

None the less, if you though Dwight was incredible against Atlanta, you must have thought Rose was out of this world against the same team in the next round?

30 ppg
10 apg
4 rpg
1 spg
1 bpg
2 three's pg
.45 FG%
.79 FT%

[Kiddlovesnets]

Dwight- 27 ppg, 63 FG%
Nelson- 13.2 ppg, 37.8 FG%
Jason Richardson- 10 ppg, 33.3 FG% (suspended 1 game)
Hedo- 9.2 ppg, 29.4 FG%
Arenas- 8.6 ppg, 42.9 FG% (missed 1 game)
Bass- 7.2 ppg, 42.1 FG%
Redick- 6.7 ppg, 35.7 FG%
Anderson- 4.7 ppg, 26.7 FG% (24.5 mpg)


Oh wait what did I see? Gilbert Arenas? Thats why the Magic had no chance right from the very beginning. Arenas is the 2nd worst cancer in NBA history, right below Allen Iverson. The team plays way better without this trash.

[ClutchOver9000]

Knicks fan but it really was fun watching Rose play, especially during his MVP year.

Anyway back to the topic. I can't criticize Rose for winning the award when there have been other winners prior to him that were in all actuality not truly deserving.

Like it or not the Bulls had the best record then and he was the best player on that team. Throw in the ridiculous highlight reel and you have the MVP.

[Whoah10115]

As for the bolded, "smart enough player", we must be watching completely different players. Howard seems lacking in basketball IQ department and makes dumb decisions often. He's hardly somebody to be described as a heady player. He turns the ball over as much as swingmen and point guards do despite having the ball much less.

As for the last sentence, It's hard to play up to par when your best player isn't drawing best player-attention, nor does said player create the way elite bigs like Shaq or Duncan did. Compared to Derrick Rose, who's offense is elite, dynamic, and generates more opportunities, Howard's offense is more predictable, albeit very efficient. He's going to score, but he's not making teams pay for not throwing double and triple teams at him.

That defensive approach Atlanta took is exactly what San Antonio used to do to Amare Stoudamire and the Suns - close out on the shooters and try and make Amare do work. It spelled doom for both teams, Phoenix and Orlando, teams that were three-point shooting teams predominantly.

None the less, if you though Dwight was incredible against Atlanta, you must have thought Rose was out of this world against the same team in the next round?

30 ppg
10 apg
4 rpg
1 spg
1 bpg
2 three's pg
.45 FG%
.79 FT%



I just strongly disagree. Howard is not a stupid player. He's smart enough and by that I mean he doesn't stupid his way into a bunch of mistakes. He wasn't getting superstar attention but he was playing like one when he got the ball...and they still didn't get him the ball consistently enough. To not bash his teammates is incredibly unfair to Howard. That was the ultimate case of one guy playing by himself. And yes, I do think Rose was great.

[Lebron23]

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/7/7f/Unseld1.jpg

[eeeeeebro]

They were statisticly better but if you add in that rose got his team 60 wins and the fact that rose owned kobes lakers he owned wade and lebron he owned all the elite point guards when they matched up. Oh and add that he was young and unbelievably physical and the best game closer in the league. Yeah he deserved mvp he also got us to the east finals. Stats dont show everything people vote because they watch the big games

[ripthekik]

OP is retarded. Who the f is derek rose?
And the dude who said AI on the first page is also retarded.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The numbers lie. You take out Nash and they're unlikely to be at .500. You take out Shaq and they're a 44-45 win team. It's just ridiculous. His impact was greater than Shaq's and it's remarkably obvious. If you were giving me some intricate stuff that I wasn't considering then OK, but you're not. All the obvious stuff is on Nash's side. His team was way worse and they ended up better the next year, in the tougher conference. If you take him out, they clearly lose more than Miami does. Shaq brought 14 wins and Nash brought 33. Nash is not the only ingredient, but Shaq was hardly the only thing that happened to Miami that year.

The difference is that Miami traded key players from their previous 42 win team to get Shaq including arguably their best player from '04 Lamar Odom, who had played like an all-star that year in addition to Caron Butler and Brian Grant. Wade played in 16 more games than he had in '04, but Amare played in 25 more. Both were young players who made massive improvements. That part is similar.

The Suns also pretty much gave up on their '04 season and looked to rebuild and get ready for one of the bigger free agent classes. They fired their coach and traded their current best player Marbury. The '03 Suns had been a 44 win team that gave the Spurs a tough series with a cast of Marbury, Marion, rookie Amare, old Penny and 21 year old Joe Johnson who was nowhere near the player he'd become in '05 or later. The Suns did also add Quentin Richardson who fit in their system averaging 15 and making three 3s per game.

No reason to believe that the '05 Suns without Nash only win 29 games with a core like that. I'd bet they do see a bigger drop off without Nash than Miami with Shaq, primarily because D'Antoni's system relies so heavily on a point guard. But he didn't add 20 more wins than Shaq, that's just ridiculous.

It was obvious to anyone who had followed Shaq's career that he had declined already. Despite losing 20 or so pounds, at 33, he still didn't have the same mobility and explosiveness, or stamina. This made it a little tougher defensively and made it less likely that Shaq would drop those 35-40 point, 15-20 rebound games he use to regularly. But Shaq being more motivated this year helped make up for some of that. He was still a huge presence at both ends, and he instantly made Miami a championship contender, even with a lot of questions about the cast outside of him and Wade which consisted of an old Eddie Jones, Udonis Haslem, Damon Jones and Rasual Butler.

I see both sides of the argument and it depends on your definition of MVP. I've actually leaned towards Nash in recent years. Both made an enormous impact and completely transformed their teams. Shaq was the better player and would make a bigger impact on the average team given his presence at both ends, but Nash's team revolved more around him.


It's worth noting that the Hawks deliberately gave Howard single-coverage in that series, and it worked supremely to crush the magic's perimeter game.

Despite Howard's offensive abilities to finish, he became flustered. In 6 games against ATL, Dwight totaled 3 assists and 33 turnovers (5.5 turnovers a game).

Rose averaged 30 points and 10 assists to beat the Hawks a series later, required more defensive attention via his style of play, and just impacted the game more regardless of Dwight's defensive presence.

Rose saw doubles, and the whole team collapsed on him at times. He's so fast, he picked (and rolled) Atlanta apart, he slashed into the paint, he knocked down mid and long range jumpers, and most importantly he created for others.

Rose just dictated the offensive tempo for his team in a much more impressive (winning) fashion than Howard in the same post-season (not saying Howard hasn't been great before, particularly in 09). The Magic, despite Howard's "dominance", struggled to break 90 ppg and it would be dishonest to look past Howard's deficiencies as the offensive-cog and not acknowledge his ongoing turnover/fouling problem. The Bulls obviously had a better team from top to bottom, I agree, but this does explain the team's numbers to an extent.

The strategy was effective, and it's been used on teams with big men who could pass as well. Notably on Shaq in 1998 vs Utah, and later vs Detroit. But I think this strategy exposed Dwight's teammates more than anything. If they can't score without Dwight being doubled then there's something wrong. My point was that Dwight did his part vs Atlanta, they played him primarily with single coverage and he scored. Even with the turnovers, he shot such a high % at 63% and 68 TS%. And a lot of the turnovers weren't bad passes or getting sripped that led to Atlanta baskets, so while the number is high, it's not as bad as it sounds. Many were offensive fouls, traveling and 3 seconds. Not all of course.

I actually don't think Dwight's 2011 series was as good as the numbers suggest, but I also know that it's unreasonable to expect him to win with a whole cast incapable of shooting 40%. I don't think he played poorly either. This was in response to the other guy referencing Dwight's playoff loss without context, as if Rose would do better with teammates playing like that. Look at the ECF. Rose really struggled, and his team was right there in every game in the 4th quarters, but he was absolutely terrible in the 4th quarters. All I'm saying is that Rose's cast was underrated and clearly better than Dwight's cast.

[Pointguard]

Individually Dwight has some great things going on, but the point is the offense was not thriving around him once teams dared him to score and refused to double him. We still see the same strategies working against him today. There were times where the announcers flat out said "going into Dwight in the post play after play is not going to work", I think against Charlotte the year earlier.

Howard is not only turnover prone but he lacks the court vision and playmaking post-skills that separate the elite from the rest. As mentioned, he averaged 5.5 turnovers a game against the Hawks, had a team-leading 21% turnover percentage, and went 4 games in the playoffs without dishing an assist. Can you really say with a straight face he was "incredible"? I mean, one of the only games the Magic won was when Howard played 29 minutes and scored 8 points.

Sdac, Dwight wasn't even integrated into the team that was built around him. In one game he nearly had a 50/20 game, game two I believe, and they were never in that game. Then Dwight stepped back and had a whopping 8 point 8 rebound game and it was Orlando's only blow out in the series. And this is a team that was built around him. And during the Season, when Dwight got himself eliminated for important games, the team played better without him. He was, just as he is now, a stellar individual player that just didn't fit in. But I guess that's what MVP's are supposed to be.

Good posting throughout this thread, Sdac.

[Odinn]

Unfortunately, yes. Thread title says "One of the Worst".
And his mvp is one of the worst and a prime candidate for the worst alongside Nash's 2005.
Both of them was not top 3 player in the L in their seasons and that tells a lot.
How many mvp you can name that wasn't one of the top 3 player in the L in his mvp season?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Sdac, Dwight wasn't even integrated into the team that was built around him. In one game he nearly had a 50/20 game, game two I believe, and they were never in that game. Then Dwight stepped back and had a whopping 8 point 8 rebound game and it was Orlando's only blow out in the series. And this is a team that was built around him. And during the Season, when Dwight got himself eliminated for important games, the team played better without him. He was, just as he is now, a stellar individual player that just didn't fit in. But I guess that's what MVP's are supposed to be.

Good posting throughout this thread, Sdac.

This is not accurate. The team revolved around him, and he got them 52 wins. You said they played better without him, but that's simply not true. They were 1-3 without him and their only win without him was vs a terrible Piston team.

His cast performed better in 2012, and Dwight was not quite as good at either end as he had been in 2011, yet the Magic went just 4-8 without him, compared to the 33-21 they were with him, which is a 50 win pace.

This year, the Magic are 12-23, although they have a different coach and some different players.

Either way, the evidence is overwhelming that Dwight's last couple of Magic casts were weak and he was carrying them to 50 wins. But I didn't need to look at the record without him to know that. I knew that in 2011 just from watching the team.



How many mvp you can name that wasn't one of the top 3 player in the L in his mvp season?

1999- Malone
2001- Iverson
2005- Nash
2006- Nash
2007- Dirk? (Top 3 in the regular season, though, hard to still put him there after the playoffs)
2011- Rose

[Odinn]

1999- Malone
2001- Iverson
2005- Nash
2006- Nash
2007- Dirk? (Top 3 in the regular season, though, hard to still put him there after the playoffs)
2011- Rose
1999- Duncan & Shaq. Who's the 3rd one you put ahead of Malone?
2001- Well, it's a little bit subjective. Shaq & Duncan were top 2. But I'm still not convinced that Kobe could carry a team like Iverson. Playing alongside one of the best offensive player at his top, that helps a lot to increase numbers.
2005- Agreed.
2006- It's hard to make a healthy judgement about that. I mean Kobe was the best. Dirk was great against the WC and Wade was the FMVP with great playoff #s. But Nash had a great case for being top 3. Without Amare, with 54W the Suns got the 3rd best record in the West and 4th best in the L. Also, thanks to Nash, they had made it to the WCF.
2007- I believe, despite his chok-job in the playoffs, Dirk was still 3rd best player in the L right after Duncan & Kobe.
2011- Agreed.

[La Frescobaldi]

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/7/7f/Unseld1.jpg
The press by and large supported the Wes selection. My brother remembered being at a friend's house and a guy brought a couple copies of Sports Daily around. They all read through that rag, took them to the kitchen, and set them on fire in the sink.
Anyone who watched hoops at the time knew perfectly well there was a huge and increasing resentment of Chamberlain within the league.

His ability to just do whatever he wanted, both on the court and off, his enormous salary, the players complete futility in trying to play against him, and the way he forced a trade to the team of his choice even though no other player could dream of such a thing.... they not only refused to vote for his fourth consecutive MVP, they basically refused to vote for him at all.

Wilt was just too good for his own good.

[kurple]

Rose is monster. favorite superstar

[ShaqAttack3234]

1999- Duncan & Shaq. Who's the 3rd one you put ahead of Malone?
2001- Well, it's a little bit subjective. Shaq & Duncan were top 2. But I'm still not convinced that Kobe could carry a team like Iverson. Playing alongside one of the best offensive player at his top, that helps a lot to increase numbers.
2005- Agreed.
2006- It's hard to make a healthy judgement about that. I mean Kobe was the best. Dirk was great against the WC and Wade was the FMVP with great playoff #s. But Nash had a great case for being top 3. Without Amare, with 54W the Suns got the 3rd best record in the West and 4th best in the L. Also, thanks to Nash, they had made it to the WCF.
2007- I believe, despite his chok-job in the playoffs, Dirk was still 3rd best player in the L right after Duncan & Kobe.
2011- Agreed.

1999- I also have Zo, and Malone's disastrous playoff run sealed it.
2001- I think Kobe was obviously a better player than Iverson. He was every bit the scorer, and in reality better because of his size and ability to be more efficient and consistent making him capable of fitting in as a first or second option. Defensively, he was on a completely different level, and not only was he able to contribute on the boards(7+ rpg in the playoffs with Shaq averaging 15+ and Grant rebounding well) but he did a phenomenal job as a facilitator during that run. His all around game was incredible. Iverson was definitely more of an MVP candidate due to the problems Kobe had during the regular season, but after the playoffs, and looking at their skill sets, I don't think it's debatable. Kobe became the consensus second best player after the playoffs. As far as carrying a team offensively with arguably the best defensive team around you and the best rebounding team? I think young Kobe would be in heaven in that situation. As a player, I also think Garnett was better, but most people don't think of him because it was an average season for him, and a much more memorable career season for Iverson.
2006- Aside from Kobe and Wade, you also have to put Lebron in front of Nash. Even those who supported Nash for MVP didn't think he was a better player than Lebron by this point. Remember, this is when Lebron improved his shooting...though his jumper left him in '07 and '08. He also had the big series vs Washington and took the 64 win Pistons to 7. And I have to put Dirk ahead of Nash. Dirk took his game to another level this year and he was a monster up to the finals. I don't think we can forget about Duncan either. He wasn't himself due to the plantar fasciitis, but still a big impact player who led the Spurs to 63 wins and dominated Dallas.
2007- It's definitely debatable. Nash had his best year and performed much better in the playoffs so I think that gives him a case over Dirk. Dirk has never been a better all around player than he was during the 2007 regular season, but it's just tough for me to completely overlook one of the worst choke jobs ever. I didn't think Lebron was as great this year due to his terrible shooting, but I may be judging him too unfairly based on his play before and after the season. He stepped up and dominated at times, still provided great all around impact and his playmaking really impressed me. You can put 3-5 in any order, while Kobe and Duncan were in a class of their own.

[Whoah10115]

Unfortunately, yes. Thread title says "One of the Worst".
And his mvp is one of the worst and a prime candidate for the worst alongside Nash's 2005.
Both of them was not top 3 player in the L in their seasons and that tells a lot.
How many mvp you can name that wasn't one of the top 3 player in the L in his mvp season?



They were both easily top 3 in their seasons so you have to be wrong.



And when I say "in their seasons" I mean exactly that. I would disagree strongly with ShaqAttack about Malone. Malone had every argument for being the best player in the league going into the lockout season. His MVP was completely deserving. Was his team any better than Duncan's? There's a reason the records were the same. Mourning was not a better player. Shaq had not become a better player. If we're talking the season, Mourning and Duncan have arguments just as strong as Malone. But Malone has a strong argument, as well. And if we're talking general top 3, Malone was a deserving #1 in the league. He'd been a monster for 10 years and Duncan wasn't even the best player on his team until the season started. While Malone was still great the next year and had as good a season as either Garnett or Duncan.


Iverson was a top 3 player in 2001. If we're going by the season. Kobe was a better player, really. But did he have a better season?


It's greatly irrelevant that a player is or isn't top 3. It's a season award. I don't get how so many people argue otherwise and then have the nerve to complain that things are political and unfair.

[Whoah10115]

The difference is that Miami traded key players from their previous 42 win team to get Shaq including arguably their best player from '04 Lamar Odom, who had played like an all-star that year in addition to Caron Butler and Brian Grant. Wade played in 16 more games than he had in '04, but Amare played in 25 more. Both were young players who made massive improvements. That part is similar.

The Suns also pretty much gave up on their '04 season and looked to rebuild and get ready for one of the bigger free agent classes. They fired their coach and traded their current best player Marbury. The '03 Suns had been a 44 win team that gave the Spurs a tough series with a cast of Marbury, Marion, rookie Amare, old Penny and 21 year old Joe Johnson who was nowhere near the player he'd become in '05 or later. The Suns did also add Quentin Richardson who fit in their system averaging 15 and making three 3s per game.

No reason to believe that the '05 Suns without Nash only win 29 games with a core like that. I'd bet they do see a bigger drop off without Nash than Miami with Shaq, primarily because D'Antoni's system relies so heavily on a point guard. But he didn't add 20 more wins than Shaq, that's just ridiculous.

It was obvious to anyone who had followed Shaq's career that he had declined already. Despite losing 20 or so pounds, at 33, he still didn't have the same mobility and explosiveness, or stamina. This made it a little tougher defensively and made it less likely that Shaq would drop those 35-40 point, 15-20 rebound games he use to regularly. But Shaq being more motivated this year helped make up for some of that. He was still a huge presence at both ends, and he instantly made Miami a championship contender, even with a lot of questions about the cast outside of him and Wade which consisted of an old Eddie Jones, Udonis Haslem, Damon Jones and Rasual Butler.

I see both sides of the argument and it depends on your definition of MVP. I've actually leaned towards Nash in recent years. Both made an enormous impact and completely transformed their teams. Shaq was the better player and would make a bigger impact on the average team given his presence at both ends, but Nash's team revolved more around him.




You're the only person here who makes any legitimate points regarding Shaq in 2005. All the pro-Shaq arguments are about an O'Neal in his prime, tho most arguments are just anti-Nash and they have no bearing in reality. I oversimplify a lot of the basic points to argue with people making unfair and inaccurate arguments. I do realize that important players on that Heat team were, in fact, traded for Shaq. Butler and Odom, as well as Brian Grant. They also had Wade making a crazy jump, and Haslem improving. Also, guys like Butler missed a lot of games the year before.


But I recognize Shaq's contributions that year. I don't think Nash was the only difference in Phoenix, but I laugh when he's talked about as a piece and O'Neal as the game-changer. Phoenix was going to win more than 29 games but they weren't going to win much more than 40.


Regardless, it isn't just how I feel about Nash being better than O'Neal. The big thing is the way people argue against Nash. You'd think the comparison was prime Shaq and a good role player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

They were both easily top 3 in their seasons so you have to be wrong.



And when I say "in their seasons" I mean exactly that. I would disagree strongly with ShaqAttack about Malone. Malone had every argument for being the best player in the league going into the lockout season. His MVP was completely deserving. Was his team any better than Duncan's? There's a reason the records were the same. Mourning was not a better player. Shaq had not become a better player. If we're talking the season, Mourning and Duncan have arguments just as strong as Malone. But Malone has a strong argument, as well. And if we're talking general top 3, Malone was a deserving #1 in the league. He'd been a monster for 10 years and Duncan wasn't even the best player on his team until the season started. While Malone was still great the next year and had as good a season as either Garnett or Duncan.


Iverson was a top 3 player in 2001. If we're going by the season. Kobe was a better player, really. But did he have a better season?


It's greatly irrelevant that a player is or isn't top 3. It's a season award. I don't get how so many people argue otherwise and then have the nerve to complain that things are political and unfair.

Malone did not have an argument for best player during the season. Shaq had been a better player than Malone for a while. He had initially surpassed him by '95 at the latest, arguably '94, and aside from '97, Malone was never better again. Malone's MVP wasn't one of the worst choices since it was a tough year and there was no clear candidate, although the circumstances around it don't seem right. Malone was at best a top 3 player by that point, but I'd put him below Zo that year.

I think Iverson was a top 3 MVP candidate in 2001, I'd have him 3rd behind Shaq and Duncan. Kobe didn't have a better regular season, but after what Kobe did in the playoffs, and when you look at each of their overall games, I don't see how anyone can say Iverson was better. Playoffs obviously don't count for MVP, I'm just talking about best players when I say top 3. Just like Rose was arguably a top 3 MVP candidate, imo, though I'd personally have Dwight, Lebron and Dirk ahead of him. However, he was definitely not a top 3 player. Borderline top 5 at best.


You're the only person here who makes any legitimate
points regarding Shaq in 2005. All the pro-Shaq arguments are about an O'Neal in his prime, tho most arguments are just anti-Nash and they have no bearing in reality. I oversimplify a lot of the basic points to argue with people making unfair and inaccurate arguments. I do realize that important players on that Heat team were, in fact, traded for Shaq. Butler and Odom, as well as Brian Grant. They also had Wade making a crazy jump, and Haslem improving. Also, guys like Butler missed a lot of games the year before.


But I recognize Shaq's contributions that year. I don't think Nash was the only difference in Phoenix, but I laugh when he's talked about as a piece and O'Neal as the game-changer. Phoenix was going to win more than 29 games but they weren't going to win much more than 40.


Regardless, it isn't just how I feel about Nash being better than O'Neal. The big thing is the way people argue against Nash. You'd think the comparison was prime Shaq and a good role player.

I agree that people go overboard with this comparison. I admit at the time, I was one of those people saying that Shaq got robbed. Partially out of bias and not being happy about Shaq only getting voted MVP once. And partially because Nash's emergence at 31 caught me off guard. He was always one of the best point guards before that, but nobody ever talked about him as an MVP candidate. This is obviously irrelevant, but I think these things played into my perception at the time. I think in hindsight, it's a very tough debate with valid arguments for both sides, and understand why the voting was so close. Actually it was so close that I think Shaq's injury late in the season probably gave Nash the edge for voters who were undecided. In reality, I don't think it should have decided anything, but that prevented Miami from the Magic 60 wins(they were 55-19), possibly matching the Suns record, and Shaq missing only 4-5 games looks a lot better than the 9 he ended up missing.

I don't think Phoenix would have won more than 40 games either. But if you just take Shaq off the '05 Heat, I don't see how 2nd year Wade with an old Eddie Jones, Damon Jones, Udonis Haslem, Rasual Butler, 35 year old Christian Laettner and Michael Doleac wins more than 40 either. And I'm not sure Wade develops as quickly or has the season he did. Wade played great, and surprised the hell out of me in '05, but he was still raw and reckless without much of a jump shot.

Obviously, either team would have to have a replacement player for Shaq/Nash.

[The_Yearning]

If Dwight Howard won the MVP, there would be no debate, as to who the worst MVP winner, ever, is.

[ShaqAttack3234]

If Dwight Howard won the MVP, there would be no debate, as to who the worst MVP winner, ever, is.

Well, at least you settled the debate about the worst poster ever.

[Go Getter]

Wasn't Rose one of less than 5 players to total a certain number of assists points and rebounds in a year?

You had to watch that season. We ran outta gas but that regular season run was fantastic. Rose owned all year and won games for us down the stretch with adroit moves and sheer will.


I haven't had that much fun being a Bulls fan since 98. It was a helluva run and the kid deserved it.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Lol yea cause Rose really dominated in the playoffs too right? I forgot shooting under 40% and less than 25% from 3 while being embarrassed left and right against Miami was a great performance.

OH and lets compare him to mr unclutch himself LeBron James...according to 82games clutch stats adjusted for 48 mins Derrick Rose shot worse from the field and 3 while being 5% from the line...not much of a difference between him and the most unclutch star of alltime but thats not it. Rose averaged SEVEN TO's a game compared to 4 for lebron and 3 for Durant.

And as long as were using BS "clutch" as a measurement...Dwight shot 72% during clutch time but that's fine bro keep saying Rose deserves it smfh.

Dwight had:
23, 14.1, 1.4, 1.4, 2.4, 3.6 on 59% FG and 59% from the line (best since rookie season) along with being the DPOY

Rose had:
24.1, 3.9, 7.4, 1.0, 0.6, 3.3 on 44.5% shooting and 33 from 3 and 86 from the line


Dwight had less talented teammates and coaching (although I do believe SVG is a good coach). He deserved it that year.

Just gonna leave this right over here again.

[Shepseskaf]

2001- I think Kobe was obviously a better player than Iverson.
That's so untrue, its comical.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's so untrue, its comical.

Name one thing that made Iverson a better player.

Scoring- Iverson's biggest strength and Kobe takes this. Both did much of their damage on jump shots at this stage, though both were obviously elite at creating off the dribble. Kobe's size however not only gave him an advantage as a finisher, but also gave him the option of posting up. Especially since he already had the skills to post up a bit, particularly going to the fadeaway. Iverson was obviously tough and crafty, but Kobe was also very crafty regularly finishing with spins and floaters around this time. Plus, he was very athletic himself back then. Not as athletic as Iverson, but at 6 inches taller, he didn't have to be. He was regularly blowing by his man and finishing over even the best shot blockers. Remember him dunking over the twin towers in the WCF? The 2001 playoffs was and still is the most aggressive I've seen Kobe attack the rim. Kobe could match Iverson as a volume scorer, but his biggest advantage was that he didn't have to be one. Iverson needed a ton of shots because he was streaky, Kobe on the other hand did an amazing job in the playoffs of playing the role of facilitator and second option while still averaging almost 30 in the flow of the offense.

Playmaking- Their ability to create off the dribble and ability to score in general is where a lot of their playmaking ability comes from, but both were also skilled passers. Kobe, however proved to be the better playmaker by how well he ran the triangle in the playoffs. Can you picture Iverson doing nearly as good of a job as the facilitator in the triangle?

Rebounding- No contest here due to size, but this is another area Kobe could have an impact in. Averaged 7+ boards during the playoffs, which is about as good as you're going to get from a shooting guard. And that's with Shaq averaging 15+ and solid rebounders in Horace Grant and Robert Horry. Remember the back to back games of 48/16 and 45/10?

Defense- Again, not even close. This was when Kobe actually was an elite defender and gave consistent effort. He was a real asset as an on ball defender hounding opposing point guards when he was alongside Harper. Once Fisher came aboard, his role changed, but he still did a good job when facing opposing shooting guards and was also a solid help defender. Iverson was essentially a gambler. Sometimes his gambling paid off, and overall, it worked with Philly, but he really can't compare in this regard.

I'm more than willing to hear your case for Iverson, but I simply can't see it. Unless you're penalizing Kobe for his regular season and not looking as much at his skill set and playoff run. I think dominating during a 15-1 playoff run more than makes up for any negatives from his regular season. I believe Kobe could have done something similar to what Iverson did, but I don't see anyway Iverson duplicates what Kobe did in the playoffs, and ultimately, Kobe's feat was more significant since it resulted in a championship and the best playoff record ever.

[chikes26x]

This is like asking who's the stupidest genius of all time. It doesn't matter, they're all awesome.

[Chicago Brawls]

-Unlike Dwight, Derrick Rose stayed on the court during crunch time.
-Rose scored numerous clutch baskets during the season.
-Keith Bogans was his backcourt mate for 82 games.
-Bulls was ranked 4-5 best team in the East before the season started.
-Orlando was ranked above the Bulls.
-Keith Bogans started.
-Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah sustained serious injuries.
-Tom Thibodeau was in his first year as head coach.
-Bulls added 7-8 new players in the previous off-season.
-Keith Bogans played.

[ShaqAttack3234]

-Unlike Dwight, Derrick Rose stayed on the court during crunch time.

So did Dwight.


-Rose scored numerous clutch baskets during the season.

So did other perimeter stars, did they all make a bigger impact than Dwight?


-Keith Bogans was his backcourt mate for 82 games.

And a good defender, which fit right into the Bulls strength.


-Bulls was ranked 4-5 best team in the East before the season started.

So? Exceeding expectations just means predictions are wrong. People are always fooled by this and they always attribute to one player. Rose's level of play was certainly a big factor and he was better than everyone, including myself thought he'd be. And I liked Rose during his year at Memphis and first 2 NBA years. But the most shocking thing about the 2011 Bulls was that they were not only the best defensive team in the entire league, but they outrebounded them opponents by an astounding 5.7 rpg.


-Orlando was ranked above the Bulls.

Who cares?


-Keith Bogans started.

You mentioned this already.


-Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah sustained serious injuries.

And Dwight probably didn't have a player as good as either of them, and certainly not as good as Luol Deng who was healthy all year.


-Tom Thibodeau was in his first year as head coach.

And he did a fantastic job resulting in the coach of the year award.


-Bulls added 7-8 new players in the previous off-season.

So why attribute all the improvement to Rose? By the way, Orlando went through a massive trade in December.


-Keith Bogans played.

And Gilbert Arenas played worse for Orlando.

[Pointguard]

Chicago Brawls hope you don't mind me jumping in.



-Unlike Dwight, Derrick Rose stayed on the court during crunch time.-
So did Dwight.



To what effect? Rose was easily the best crunch time player in the league. Doc Rivers said it wasn't even close. Orlando sucked in crunch time and when it mattered most they began loosing extensively.



-Keith Bogans was his backcourt mate for 82 games.
And a good defender, which fit right into the Bulls strength.
Rose was a very good defender that year and yall never gave him credit for it. Rose had to guard Wade because Rose was the best backcourt defender. If Chicago had great defense it was because both parts (frontcourt and backcourt) worked in harmony. Guards had to keep other guards out of the lane. Wade was a great penetrator until they put Rose on him. Defensively Rose wrecked the elite at his position.

On the other hand in a must win game against Sacramento, Gundy, didn't let DH guard DMC who was a rookie. DMC went off for 28 points and Orlando barely pulled the game off. No way would Rose not pitch a fit if he couldn't guard the opposing PG (which was one of the more loaded positions in the league - DMC was the only halfway accomplished offensive center).



So? Exceeding expectations just means predictions are wrong. People are always fooled by this and they always attribute to one player. Rose's level of play was certainly a big factor and he was better than everyone, including myself thought he'd be. And I liked Rose during his year at Memphis and first 2 NBA years. But the most shocking thing about the 2011 Bulls was that they were not only the best defensive team in the entire league, but they outrebounded them opponents by an astounding 5.7 rpg.


Rose was in the top five of rebounding PG's. So he can't be excluded from this argument either. Chicago did their rebounding as a team and Rose was their best backcourt rebounder as well.

Expectations are usually based on experience, talent, teammates knowing each other, new systems, new coaches, new players, having all your players healthy. So the expectations weren't wrong. That's good criteria. All of the other superstars (Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Kobe) had real big problems with the new team, new system thing - so that's a valid criteria. Players healthy - Chicago was hit harder than any contending team - without question. They weren't a super talented team. They weren't a fast or quick team. They were new to each other. They weren't offensively complementary. No other guy on the team had an outstanding strength (something Durant/Lebron/Wade/Kobe all had). So yeah expectations address all of those things.

But sometimes there is a player that can make you think differently about things. In comparison to the other contenders Rose barely had one excuse to finish with a better record than everybody else (Miami was better than Chicago in a way defensively and had better individual defenders). But Rose had 10 qualities that assured they shouldn't have had the best record. And then they won more games in the 4th quarter than any team that year with Rose as the best finisher in the game. They dominated OKC, Dallas, SA, Miami, Boston and didn't loose a game to any of them the last 4 months of the season. I didn't include Orlando in that group because I was mentioning the elite.



And Dwight probably didn't have a player as good as either of them, and certainly not as good as Luol Deng who was healthy all year.

So when was the last time a player won the MVP when he and his team didn't play well in March and April. Dwight was the MVP before the Allstar game. [/quote]



So why attribute all the improvement to Rose?

Whenever any team excels in transition and injuries it is always an individual on the court that leads the way. Its never X's and O's. Thibes himself said it was Rose. His teammates said it was Rose. He was the one that took responsibility of players getting up for practice, being accountable for playing with energy and getting on the same page.

[Pointguard]

Shaqattack, can you explain the difference you had for pumping Dirk as moving up to like top 25 on the GOAT list after winning it that year when he was on one the greatest playoff defensive teams - Kidd and Marion had perhaps the greatest defensive stands at the SG and SF position ever in the playoffs and both of them admitting that Chandler was the defensive anchor, yet you are so adamant against Rose who crushed the elite at his position defensively and was a top five rebounding guard?

You also said Dirk had the best year, which I agree, but his team was a great defensive team and they had great three point shooting outside of Dirk. Rose had way more to contend with than Dirk and is a multi-dimensional player. How do you totally flop like that? I can see you saying Dirk for the whole year, but its a huge contradiction to switch to Howard for the regular season like that.

[tpols]

Shaqattack, can you explain the difference you had for pumping Dirk as moving up to like top 25 on the GOAT list after winning it that year when he was on one the greatest playoff defensive teams - Kidd and Marion had perhaps the greatest defensive stands at the SG and SF position ever in the playoffs and both of them admitting that Chandler was the defensive anchor, yet you are so adamant against Rose who crushed the elite at his position defensively and was a top five rebounding guard?

You also said Dirk had the best year, which I agree, but his team was a great defensive team and they had great three point shooting outside of Dirk. Rose had way more to contend with than Dirk and is a multi-dimensional player. How do you totally flop like that? I can see you saying Dirk for the whole year, but its a huge contradiction to switch to Howard for the regular season like that.
Dirk shot incredibly efficiently and dominated the west. One of the best clutch runs of all time.

Derrick Rose was shooting in the 30s to start the playoffs.. Ended up being beat by a massive amount in efficiency and clutches by Dirk.. Wasn't close.

[tpols]

The main reason people think rose was a weak mvp is because of the massive drop off in play from his regular season to the playoffs. His efficiency bombed and the clutches wasn't nearly as prevalent.

[entropy35]

Rose deserved the MVP because his team was so good. But yes he is probably the worst MVP so far, or maybe Nash.

[Go Getter]

MVP is a regular season award.

[Pointguard]

Dirk shot incredibly efficiently and dominated the west. One of the best clutch runs of all time.

Derrick Rose was shooting in the 30s to start the playoffs.. Ended up being beat by a massive amount in efficiency and clutches by Dirk.. Wasn't close.

The main reason people think rose was a weak mvp is because of the massive drop off in play from his regular season to the playoffs. His efficiency bombed and the clutches wasn't nearly as prevalent.

Nobody is even trying to say Dirk was the MVP that year.

The MVP has nothing to do with the post season, you know that right?

People here were saying it before Rose won two playoff series. Dwight Howard was barely involved in a playoff win. Lebron was the best player if you incorporate both seasons but his ending was worse than Rose's.

Dirk shot just like Rose did, in his final three games of the finals. You have to have some consistency. In your case you have to know that MVP is a regular season award.

[Money 23]

-Unlike Dwight, Derrick Rose stayed on the court during crunch time.
-Rose scored numerous clutch baskets during the season.
-Keith Bogans was his backcourt mate for 82 games.
-Bulls was ranked 4-5 best team in the East before the season started.
-Orlando was ranked above the Bulls.
-Keith Bogans started.
-Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah sustained serious injuries.
-Tom Thibodeau was in his first year as head coach.
-Bulls added 7-8 new players in the previous off-season.
-Keith Bogans played.
This.

Rose was very good, and yes CONTEXT made him MVP. But he deserved that award in 2011.

LeBron / Wade were out the running because their numbers were identical and the media was infuriated that they cowardly joined forces, and Dwight didn't impact late in games like Rose, nor did he have the record to compete.

ShaqAttack3234 as much as I love him, is a known little guy hater, and big man groupie. Rose was ultimately more impactful than Howard, and it really isn't even close.

[tpols]

Nobody is even trying to say Dirk was the MVP that year.

The MVP has nothing to do with the post season, you know that right?

People here were saying it before Rose won two playoff series. Dwight Howard was barely involved in a playoff win. Lebron was the best player if you incorporate both seasons but his ending was worse than Rose's.

Dirk shot just like Rose did, in his final three games of the finals. You have to have some consistency. In your case you have to know that MVP is a regular season award.
I was responding to your point on Shaq having Dirk move up to top 25 all time.. You had to have been talking about after the post season there right? Because it was in the playoffs that Dirk blew up and made that a reality.

You were saying the mavs got by on their defense just like the Bulls.. But the Bulls were getting by on their defense a he'll of a lot more than the mavs were.

Dirk shot 49 percent in the playoffs.
Rose shot 39 percent.

Dirk had amazing clutch performances throughout his whole run.. Larry bird esque games.. Probably the best collection of game winners and stretch performances ever against the Heat. Rose choked game after game against the Heat where the Bulls were in every game til the end and ended up losing in crunch time every time.

[tpols]

I see what you're saying point guard.. How can someone give Dirk so much credit for his playoff run and at the same time discredit roses mvp award when they both had similar defense oriented teams and were the sole stars carrying the team.

That's fair. Rose deserved surely deserved mvp for his regular season performance. A lot of people think it's un telling because his play just didn't translate into the postseason.

[Pointguard]

I was responding to your point on Shaq having Dirk move up to top 25 all time.. You had to have been talking about after the post season there right? Because it was in the playoffs that Dirk blew up and made that a reality.

You were saying the mavs got by on their defense just like the Bulls.. But the Bulls were getting by on their defense a he'll of a lot more than the mavs were.
Yeah but I was talking about SAttack's lack of consistency in hyping one up like crazy in his GOAT standings and then saying then saying a guy in the same predicament should lose to DH, who didn't prove much on a team that was convinced he couldn't carry them. They ditched their original plans because they were convinced DH couldn't carry that team. Who wins an MVP on those grounds?

And what's good for 10 notches on a GOAT status should at least be good for an MVP.



Dirk shot 49 percent in the playoffs.
Rose shot 39 percent.

Dirk had amazing clutch performances throughout his whole run.. Larry bird esque games.. Probably the best collection of game winners and stretch performances ever against the Heat. Rose choked game after game against the Heat where the Bulls were in every game til the end and ended up losing in crunch time every time.

Dirk shot like 38% in the last three games IIRC. If Rose had one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the post season history he fairs a lot better - after three rounds Dallas was one of the best. If Rose's supposedly great defensive team had stopped Lebron like Dallas did they win that series. Nobody that young has ever totally carried an offensively challenged team beyond the first round like Rose did. And Rose went three rounds. But the MVP is about the regular season.

If you hype Dirk's post season, you have to hype Rose's regular season. The two are very similar. If you hype DH in the regular season then it only makes sense that you hype Lebron who was by far the best two way player in both seasons, as having the best year. Both Lebron and DH came up short in winning. I'm just asking for consistency.

[Pointguard]

I see what you're saying point guard.. How can someone give Dirk so much credit for his playoff run and at the same time discredit roses mvp award when they both had similar defense oriented teams and were the sole stars carrying the team.

That's fair. Rose deserved surely deserved mvp for his regular season performance. A lot of people think it's un telling because his play just didn't translate into the postseason.

Sorry didn't see this when I posted. You are one of my favorite posters because you keep seeking clarity.

[tpols]

Sorry didn't see this when I posted. You are one of my favorite posters because you keep seeking clarity.
Yea I got it mixed up at first. :cheers:

[Go Getter]

People streeeeeeeeeetching to discredit Rose when the playoffs have nothing to do with the MVP race. Derrick played the WCs followed by the longest season of his life where he met up with one of the best teams in the NBA maybe for a few years and burnt out. Why does that matter when talking about a regular season award?

[tpols]

People streeeeeeeeeetching to discredit Rose when the playoffs have nothing to do with the MVP race. Derrick played the WCs followed by the longest season of his life where he met up with one of the best teams in the NBA maybe for a few years and burnt out. Why does that matter when talking about a regular season award?
It doesn't matter at all in the context point guard was talking about it in.. Which is why I had to correct myself.

In terms of the playoffs though and outside this threads topic.. If rose had continued his clutch reign from the regular season to when they played Miami the Bulls could've won. I remember everyone of those games came down to the wire.

[ShaqAttack3234]

To what effect? Rose was easily the best crunch time player in the league. Doc Rivers said it wasn't even close. Orlando sucked in crunch time and when it mattered most they began loosing extensively.

Easily the best crunch time player? I don't know about that. Regardless, I care more about the entire game.


Rose was a very good defender that year and yall never gave him credit for it. Rose had to guard Wade because Rose was the best backcourt defender. If Chicago had great defense it was because both parts (frontcourt and backcourt) worked in harmony. Guards had to keep other guards out of the lane. Wade was a great penetrator until they put Rose on him. Defensively Rose wrecked the elite at his position.

Rose was never a great defender. This is ridiculous. I could call him average, but no more than that. He wasn't a better defender than Bogans. Nobody gave Rose credit for being a great defender because he wasn't. Great offensive player? Yes.


On the other hand in a must win game against Sacramento, Gundy, didn't let DH guard DMC who was a rookie. DMC went off for 28 points and Orlando barely pulled the game off. No way would Rose not pitch a fit if he couldn't guard the opposing PG (which was one of the more loaded positions in the league - DMC was the only halfway accomplished offensive center).

You're clinging to a game that Orlando won, and you're really comparing their defense? What Howard did defensively all year goes far beyond the impact individual defense can make. Defense is something is an overwhelming advantage for Dwight and what ultimately makes it clear to me that he was a bigger impact player.

Rose was in the top five of rebounding PG's. So he can't be excluded from this argument either. Chicago did their rebounding as a team and Rose was their best backcourt rebounder as well. Funny


Expectations are usually based on experience, talent, teammates knowing each other, new systems, new coaches, new players, having all your players healthy. So the expectations weren't wrong. That's good criteria. All of the other superstars (Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Kobe) had real big problems with the new team, new system thing - so that's a valid criteria. Players healthy - Chicago was hit harder than any contending team - without question. They weren't a super talented team. They weren't a fast or quick team. They were new to each other. They weren't offensively complementary. No other guy on the team had an outstanding strength (something Durant/Lebron/Wade/Kobe all had). So yeah expectations address all of those things.

The expectations were wrong because nobody imagined Chicago being the best defensive team or outrebounding opponents by 5.7 rpg. Nobody thought that'd happen in their wildest dreams. And most of that wasn't due to Rose. Admittedly, the attention he drew opened up some more offensive rebounding opportunities, but that doesn't begin to account for just how dominant they were on the boards. Rose himself also exceeded expectations, but it definitely wasn't all him. Just look at the rebounding and defense. I remember thinking Chicago may win 50 at best before the season, and granted, that was before injuries to Boozer and Noah.


But sometimes there is a player that can make you think differently about things. In comparison to the other contenders Rose barely had one excuse to finish with a better record than everybody else (Miami was better than Chicago in a way defensively and had better individual defenders). But Rose had 10 qualities that assured they shouldn't have had the best record. And then they won more games in the 4th quarter than any team that year with Rose as the best finisher in the game. They dominated OKC, Dallas, SA, Miami, Boston and didn't loose a game to any of them the last 4 months of the season. I didn't include Orlando in that group because I was mentioning the elite.

Except Miami didn't end up being as good defensively as Chicago. They were better offensively, though. They were also nowhere near the rebounding team. With the defense around Rose, some pretty good talent(not great, but a decent offensive cast) it's not that surprising they finished with such a good record.


So when was the last time a player won the MVP when he and his team didn't play well in March and April. Dwight was the MVP before the Allstar game.

The Magic were 38-22 after February, on pace for 52 wins, which is exactly what they finished with.


Whenever any team excels in transition and injuries it is always an individual on the court that leads the way. Its never X's and O's. Thibes himself said it was Rose. His teammates said it was Rose. He was the one that took responsibility of players getting up for practice, being accountable for playing with energy and getting on the same page.

This is ridiculous, coaching clearly played a major role in the Bulls season. It was the biggest reason for their defense, which was their greatest strength. Coaching is extremely important.


Shaqattack, can you explain the difference you had for pumping Dirk as moving up to like top 25 on the GOAT list after winning it that year when he was on one the greatest playoff defensive teams - Kidd and Marion had perhaps the greatest defensive stands at the SG and SF position ever in the playoffs and both of them admitting that Chandler was the defensive anchor, yet you are so adamant against Rose who crushed the elite at his position defensively and was a top five rebounding guard?

You also said Dirk had the best year, which I agree, but his team was a great defensive team and they had great three point shooting outside of Dirk. Rose had way more to contend with than Dirk and is a multi-dimensional player. How do you totally flop like that? I can see you saying Dirk for the whole year, but its a huge contradiction to switch to Howard for the regular season like that.

I don't remember where I ranked Dirk. Dirk did have a good defensive team and shooters, but you're kidding yourself if you think he was backed with a defense as good as Chicago. I happen to just think Dirk is a better player, who I'd rather count on to win a championship. He's a much more efficient player who can take over games without nearly being as ball-dominant, and create more high percentage shots with his mid-range game, in addition to being a better outside shooter which stretches the defense and opens up a lot of things for his teammates. I think he's better at fitting into the offense, without having to be the offense. Though we saw that he can also do that if it's necessary. And unlike Rose that year, he stepped up and delivered when it mattered most resulting in a championship.



ShaqAttack3234 as much as I love him, is a known little guy hater, and big man groupie. Rose was ultimately more impactful than Howard, and it really isn't even close.

You always say this, but it never makes sense to me, and you're really the only one who calls me a "known little guy hater." Why would I be when I'm far shorter than ALL of these players we're discussing? If you break down their games, factor in Dwight's defense that year and his post scoring(which was actually pretty damn consistent that year) I don't see the argument for Rose even being as impactful.


Yeah but I was talking about SAttack's lack of consistency in hyping one up like crazy in his GOAT standings and then saying then saying a guy in the same predicament should lose to DH, who didn't prove much on a team that was convinced he couldn't carry them. They ditched their original plans because they were convinced DH couldn't carry that team. Who wins an MVP on those grounds?

This makes no sense for 2 reasons. First, I don't remember hyping Dirk up like crazy in any standings. I've praised Dirk for a long time and thought he was underrated because people forget how good he's been for so long. I did raise him a bit after winning his ring, but I don't see what's unreasonable about that.

And I have no idea what you're talking about "Dwight's team knowing he couldn't carry them and ditching their original plans." Orlando went in to Dwight MORE that year than ever, and that was because they not only saw how much he had improved, but saw that his cast wasn't as good as they had been in the past and that the East had improved.

Who could have carried Orlando? Dwight had to carry them at both ends. He didn't have very good defenders around him, and he lacked a legit second option or any guy who could consistently create. Hedo and Nelson had the ability, but both were inconsistent and neither were good enough to be real second options consistently. His teammates were very streaky because they were really just shooters, and they didn't shoot as well as they had in the past. Just 10th in 3P% compared to 3rd the previous year, 7th in '09, 4th in '08 and 3rd in '12.

[Whoah10115]

I just think that people argue the wrong way. I have no problem with Rose winning, tho I feel strongly about Howard being the MVP that year. My problem with Rose was how shoved aside everyone else was. Also, I have a massive problem with the way people discuss Howard. I liked him a lot before and I like him much less now (in fact, I don't like him at all). But there's too much time spent discussing how he wouldn't measure up to other centers. Enough that I'm weary of that conversation. What I'll say is it has no impact now. As a player, this guy has been one of the best players in the league. For someone to argue otherwise is to be retarded.


If anyone thinks he has no claims that year then you're dumb. I have him #1, Rose the runner-up. After that, I have Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk all fighting for that spot. I could accept any one of them. I have Durant 2nd Team that year. That was the list, for me. But Howard and Rose should be the top 2 that year. I feel it's pretty obvious. But, regardless of where you rank, there's a problem with the way people argue. Bias plays far too big a part and to see it come thru with supposed objectivity is annoying.

[ILLsmak]

I don't think Nash was the worst either in level of play or who deserved it vs their peers, though I do agree that Kobe was MVP in 2006. However, how did Kobe deserve it in 2005? He didn't even deserve to be a candidate that year. Are you mixing up 2005 with 2007?


I'd say Nash was the least deserving MVP I've ever seen. Which is not so much... since 95. Rose was kind of a monster and his team was good. That Bulls team did not have the kind of roster that should have been the best in the league. Rose was carrying them. I have no problem with him getting an MVP, it's just too bad he got injured and now everyone wants to act like he's trash.

Edit: Also such things as rebound differential are misleading. You can have good rebounders, but it's really the quality of shots you get and the quality of defense you play that leads to rebounds. I think Rose helped a lot of offensive rebounds happen.

-Smak

[SCdac]

I just think that people argue the wrong way. I have no problem with Rose winning, tho I feel strongly about Howard being the MVP that year. My problem with Rose was how shoved aside everyone else was. Also, I have a massive problem with the way people discuss Howard. I liked him a lot before and I like him much less now (in fact, I don't like him at all). But there's too much time spent discussing how he wouldn't measure up to other centers. Enough that I'm weary of that conversation. What I'll say is it has no impact now. As a player, this guy has been one of the best players in the league. For someone to argue otherwise is to be retarded.


If anyone thinks he has no claims that year then you're dumb. I have him #1, Rose the runner-up. After that, I have Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk all fighting for that spot. I could accept any one of them. I have Durant 2nd Team that year. That was the list, for me. But Howard and Rose should be the top 2 that year. I feel it's pretty obvious. But, regardless of where you rank, there's a problem with the way people argue. Bias plays far too big a part and to see it come thru with supposed objectivity is annoying.

Always such compelling, insightful, arguments from you man :cheers:

[SCdac]

in case anybody missed it the first time around. it's pretty much understood within basketball that Rose was the man that season. Even his competitors were giving him the utmost credit. That says alot.

[quote]"Once again, I think they have got the MVP of the league. That kid has come into his own. He has matured quite a bit. When he came into the league, everybody said he had speed, he could get to the rim, but he can't shoot. Now he can shoot

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'd say Nash was the least deserving MVP I've ever seen. Which is not so much... since 95. Rose was kind of a monster and his team was good. That Bulls team did not have the kind of roster that should have been the best in the league. Rose was carrying them. I have no problem with him getting an MVP, it's just too bad he got injured and now everyone wants to act like he's trash.

Edit: Also such things as rebound differential are misleading. You can have good rebounders, but it's really the quality of shots you get and the quality of defense you play that leads to rebounds. I think Rose helped a lot of offensive rebounds happen.

-Smak

Personally, I can't see anyone making the case that Rose had as big of an impact as prime Nash did in Phoenix. Nash's teams were offensive juggernauts with the entire system revolving around him. Both their half court offense and their transition game. Nash was a worse defender than Rose, but Nash's offense makes the decision pretty clear. And in terms of MVP, seeing how Nash's Suns operated, it's pretty clear whose team relied on them more.

I credited Rose for creating some offensive rebounding opportunities, but that only goes so far when you are an astounding +5.7 on the boards for the season.

Again, if you look at how Lebron and Howard played at both ends, I just can't see a legitimate argument for him as MVP that goes beyond the hollow "they won 60+ games and weren't supposed to."

[Pointguard]

Rose was never a great defender. This is ridiculous. I could call him average, but no more than that. He wasn't a better defender than Bogans. Nobody gave Rose credit for being a great defender because he wasn't. Great offensive player? Yes.

Rose held elite PGs down to to 38% shooting down that year. He got up for good comp and the 4th quarter. Bogans was there for defense and was more dedicated to it. In the fourth quarter of the ECF Bogans, who played the SG position was moved off of Wade in favor of Rose. Rose guarded a healthy Wade as good as anybody ever did in the playoffs. And Wade had an argument as being the most explosive SG ever in the playoffs. Sounds pretty impressive to me.



You're clinging to a game that Orlando won, and you're really comparing their defense? What Howard did defensively all year goes far beyond the impact individual defense can make. Defense is something is an overwhelming advantage for Dwight and what ultimately makes it clear to me that he was a bigger impact player.


Dwight's defensive minded coach decided to take Howard off of a rookie DMC because he thought DH couldn't simply control himself in a key game against a scrub team. Dwight was at the level of having self-control issues when the playoffs was taking shape. DH faced an offensive center once a month and the one he couldn't guard on a scrub team nearly beat them. Now lets put that in context with Rose against elite guards and stellar teams. Rose uninamously outplays the elite guards and the Bulls never lose to an elite team after the first month of play.

It doesn't sound like we are comparing equals.

Impact. Rose team plays so well with injuries to key players that Orlando management decides to blow up their team realizing that they aren't ahead of this low projected team (Bulls). The new Orlando team assembles and realizes they don't have a leader or somebody they can turn to when the games got tight. They actually needed sombody like Rose. Unfortunately they had DH.




The expectations were wrong because nobody imagined Chicago being the best defensive team or outrebounding opponents by 5.7 rpg. Nobody thought that'd happen in their wildest dreams. And most of that wasn't due to Rose. Admittedly, the attention he drew opened up some more offensive rebounding opportunities, but that doesn't begin to account for just how dominant they were on the boards. Rose himself also exceeded expectations, but it definitely wasn't all him. Just look at the rebounding and defense. I remember thinking Chicago may win 50 at best before the season, and granted, that was before injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Everybody plays a role. The most important is the finisher.


The Magic were 38-22 after February, on pace for 52 wins, which is exactly what they finished with.

Oh so who stepped up their game and who didn't if they fell 9 games back in a month and half? I said DH was the MVP before the allstar break when they games mean less. No arguement there.



This is ridiculous, coaching clearly played a major role in the Bulls season. It was the biggest reason for their defense, which was their greatest strength. Coaching is extremely important.

yeah its important. But players and finishers win the game.



I don't remember where I ranked Dirk. Dirk did have a good defensive team and shooters, but you're kidding yourself if you think he was backed with a defense as good as Chicago.

Miami's offense definitely looked a lot better against Chicago in the playoffs. And you have to kidding yourself if you think otherwise.



I happen to just think Dirk is a better player, who I'd rather count on to win a championship. He's a much more efficient player who can take over games without nearly being as ball-dominant, and create more high percentage shots with his mid-range game, in addition to being a better outside shooter which stretches the defense and opens up a lot of things for his teammates. I think he's better at fitting into the offense, without having to be the offense. Though we saw that he can also do that if it's necessary. And unlike Rose that year, he stepped up and delivered when it mattered most resulting in a championship.
Before that year Rose was a more efficient shooter than 7 foot Dirk in the playoffs. Rose was ball dominant because he had no creators on his team like Dirk did, had no 3 pt clutch shooters like Dirk did, had nobody step up like Dirk did, he had nobody to open him up like Dirk had. But Rose was better in all of those categories than DH was and it doesn't affect your opinion there.



Who could have carried Orlando? Dwight had to carry them at both ends. He didn't have very good defenders around him, and he lacked a legit second option or any guy who could consistently create. Hedo and Nelson had the ability, but both were inconsistent and neither were good enough to be real second options consistently. His teammates were very streaky because they were really just shooters, and they didn't shoot as well as they had in the past. Just 10th in 3P% compared to 3rd the previous year, 7th in '09, 4th in '08 and 3rd in '12.

You didn't really just describe an MVP. That was an excuse as to why he lost games and why he wasn't MVP. When the games got meaningful toward their goal he wasn't there. His better games were in Feb. He wasn't their leader and it wasn't much of a team thing going on overthere in March and April. When he had his best playoff game they weren't in the game. When he stepped back in the playoffs that was the best Orlando played all year. He wasn't integral to their best output. There has to be a team context to the award.

[Glide2keva]

I will say this again.

Dwight ruined his shot at it when he got himself suspended for the game that would've most likely decided the MVP race against Chicago. He had to sit, Rose played, Bulls won, Rose MVP.

Deal with it.

If anyone was undeserving of the MVP, it has to be Kobe. Chris Paul was unbelievable that year and all the media talked about was Kobe vs. Lebron for MVP and completely ignored CP3.

[tpols]

I will say this again.

Dwight ruined his shot at it when he got himself suspended for the game that would've most likely decided the MVP race against Chicago. He had to sit, Rose played, Bulls won, Rose MVP.

Deal with it.

If anyone was undeserving of the MVP, it has to be Kobe. Chris Paul was unbelievable that year and all the media talked about was Kobe vs. Lebron for MVP and completely ignored CP3.
It's funny how you mention the deciding game for rose versus Howard being a head to head match up that rose won giving him the MVP.

Then you turn around and say kobe didn't deserve it over paul when they were considered equal contenders for the award up to a same type of end of the season match up that kobe won just like rose did.

Identical situations with two different outcomes for you. No consistency.

[Glide2keva]

It's funny how you mention the deciding game for rose versus Howard being a head to head match up that rose won giving him the MVP.

Then you turn around and say kobe didn't deserve it over paul when they were considered equal contenders for the award up to a same type of end of the season match up that kobe won just like rose did.

Identical situations with two different outcomes for you. No consistency.
I didn't see the end of the season matchup of CP vs. Kobe, because I don't really follow either team. Stopped following the Hornets when they moved from Charlotte, and I hate the Lakers.

But I was watching what CP3 did that year and he was amazing and got his team as high as the top record in the West (which was loaded) for brief period of time. He made Tyson Chandler look like a monster and probably extended his career (which wasn't looking like much after the Bulls let him go). He took that team and made them contenders and he was the sole reason for it.

That's what I based it on, not the head to head matchup. Each case is different. Dwight had the chance to make his case for MVP, but as I said before, he went and got that last technical and got himself suspended. His team almost won without him, so it made Dwight look even worse.

[tpols]

I didn't see the end of the season matchup of CP vs. Kobe, because I don't really follow either team. Stopped following the Hornets when they moved from Charlotte, and I hate the Lakers.

But I was watching what CP3 did that year and he was amazing and got his team as high as the top record in the West (which was loaded) for brief period of time. He made Tyson Chandler look like a monster and probably extended his career (which wasn't looking like much after the Bulls let him go). He took that team and made them contenders and he was the sole reason for it.

That's what I based it on, not the head to head matchup. Each case is different. Dwight had the chance to make his case for MVP, but as I said before, he went and got that last technical and got himself suspended. His team almost won without him, so it made Dwight look even worse.
And kobe led his team as the lead dog to a great 28-15ish record before Gasol came and ended up leading them to an even better record than paul did. And then he won the same game rose did against Howard. And he also followed it up with a better playoff performance destroying the team that beat Chris Pauls hornets one round later.

What you're doing is spreading a myth.

[Glide2keva]

And kobe led his team as the lead dog to a great 28-15ish record before Gasol came and ended up leading them to an even better record than Paul did.Read this part again.


And then he won the same game rose did against Howard.Howard was suspended, so Rose didn't play against Howard.


And he also followed it up with a better playoff performance destroying the team that beat Chris Paul's hornets one round later.Playoffs have no bearing on the MVP race.



What you're doing is spreading a myth.No, what I'm doing is telling the truth from my perspective. Your opinion may be different and that's fine. But in my opinion, CP3 was the MVP that year and not Kobe. And your first sentence proves what I was saying because Paul had no one else to carry the load, unlike Kobe who had Pau.

[Pointguard]

Personally, I can't see anyone making the case that Rose had as big of an impact as prime Nash did in Phoenix. Nash's teams were offensive juggernauts with the entire system revolving around him. Both their half court offense and their transition game. Nash was a worse defender than Rose, but Nash's offense makes the decision pretty clear. And in terms of MVP, seeing how Nash's Suns operated, it's pretty clear whose team relied on them more.


No player should ever be penalized because he has a bigger slice of the pie to carry. If Rose is the offensive piece for his team he has a huge part of the pie for his team to succeed. When AI was killing himself because he was the offense, he had the biggest part of the offensive pie in the whole league. Even more than Nash did his first MVP. Whole teams would collapse on AI and his burden was COLLOSO. His team rebounded and played good defense but its totally unfair to exclude him from MVP talk. His team absolutely could not win 30 games without him. Nobody, not even Shaq had that burden. But you have Kobe as being better than AI that year.

A player who is the complimentrary piece to a team is usually the most valueable. The best compliment to good defense is good offense, not more defense.

The reason why Philly and Chicago could beat the elite teams those years was because Rose and AI kept going hard to the middle. They wore down the other team defensively. They were the best guys for that type of team. You can beat the bad teams with defense but they were beating everybody.

[Glide2keva]

No player should ever be penalized because he has a bigger slice of the pie to carry. If Rose is the offensive piece for his team he has a huge part of the pie for his team to succeed. When AI was killing himself because he was the offense, he had the biggest part of the offensive pie in the whole league. Even more than Nash did his first MVP. Whole teams would collapse on AI and his burden was COLLOSO. His team rebounded and played good defense but its totally unfair to exclude him from MVP talk. His team absolutely could not win 30 games without him. Nobody, not even Shaq had that burden. But you have Kobe as being better than AI that year.

A player who is the complimentrary piece to a team is usually the most valueable. The best compliment to good defense is good offense, not more defense.

The reason why Philly and Chicago could beat the elite teams those years was because Rose and AI kept going hard to the middle. They wore down the other team defensively. They were the best guys for that type of team. You can beat the bad teams with defense but they were beating everybody.
All of this.

[tpols]

Glide you also said this..

I didn't see the end of the season matchup of CP vs. Kobe, because I don't really follow either team. Stopped following the Hornets when they moved from Charlotte, and I hate the Lakers.

So I don't know that your perspective means much.. You didn't even watch the kobe-paul game that you use as the tiebreaker in the rose Howard race when they were both viewed in the same light.

That and you admitted you have a clear bias against the Lakers and kobe.

[Whoah10115]

Always such compelling, insightful, arguments from you man :cheers:



That's pretty unfair when you highlight or quote only what you want to quote. You did it with someone else's posts and you're doing it with mine.

[Glide2keva]

Glide you also said this..

So I don't know that your perspective means much.. You didn't even watch the kobe-paul game that you use as the tiebreaker in the rose Howard race when they were both viewed in the same light.

That and you admitted you have a clear bias against the Lakers and kobe.Yes, but you're twisting the words I used. You're using two different things and making them similar. First off, the debate for MVP when Rose won was between Howard and Rose.

The 2008 MVP was between Kobe and lebron. So the final game between Paul and Kobe meant nothing because Paul was never even considered for MVP, even though he was the most deserving. ESPN made sure from the start of the season to steer the MVP discussion to Kobe vs. Lebron. no one else had a chance in that season. Paul had an historic season and was hardly mentioned for MVP, except for a cursory mention here and there, but nothing serious.

The 2011 MVP between Rose and Dwight was actually where the debate was and maybe a cursory mention to Dirk. As I said before, the race was basically still up in the air with voters saying they were leaning one way or the other. Dwight missed his chance to make his case by getting suspended. Dirk didn't close out the season well, and lebron and Wade were negated by playing with each other on the same team that first year.

And my bias against the lakers doesn't negate the fact that Kobe had a top flight player like Pau Gasol and Bynum's potential and a great supporting cast.

Paul MADE his team look better than it was with David West playing like a all-star feeding off of Chris Paul. Tyson Chandler looked unstoppable just catching lobs and blocking shots. He even made Janerro Pargo's scrub ass look like a halfway decent player. Paul didn't win because he was overlooked for what he did that year.

By the way, I don't even like Chris Paul, so what were you saying about my bias again?

[Whoah10115]

^^ I'm not in this discussion and I didn't read all of the previous posts, but what do you mean Paul wasn't in the MVP discussion? You realize Chris Paul was the runner-up to Kobe?


Lebron finished 4th, behind KG.

[Glide2keva]

^^ I'm not in this discussion and I didn't read all of the previous posts, but what do you mean Paul wasn't in the MVP discussion? You realize Chris Paul was the runner-up to Kobe?


Lebron finished 4th, behind KG.I meant in the media. I thought I said that in my post. I said ESPN was trying to steer the conversation to lebron vs. kobe from the beginning of the season. I didn't say anything about what the voters did.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Rose held elite PGs down to to 38% shooting down that year. He got up for good comp and the 4th quarter. Bogans was there for defense and was more dedicated to it. In the fourth quarter of the ECF Bogans, who played the SG position was moved off of Wade in favor of Rose. Rose guarded a healthy Wade as good as anybody ever did in the playoffs. And Wade had an argument as being the most explosive SG ever in the playoffs. Sounds pretty impressive to me.

Don't you think players shooting a low % against the Bulls had to do with the fact that they're the best defensive TEAM?


Dwight's defensive minded coach decided to take Howard off of a rookie DMC because he thought DH couldn't simply control himself in a key game against a scrub team. Dwight was at the level of having self-control issues when the playoffs was taking shape. DH faced an offensive center once a month and the one he couldn't guard on a scrub team nearly beat them. Now lets put that in context with Rose against elite guards and stellar teams. Rose uninamously outplays the elite guards and the Bulls never lose to an elite team after the first month of play.

This is such a laughable argument it's unbelievable. Do you even understand how ridiculous this sounds? A player had a good game vs Orlando and almost beat them? Really? That's part of your argument. You focus WAY too much on head to head match ups. What matters is your play over the course of an entire game and season.

Answer this question. Do you honestly believe Rose's defensive impact was even close to Howard's?


It doesn't sound like we are comparing equals.

That's because we're not. Howard averaged 23/14 on 59% while being the best defensive player in the league. Of course Rose wasn't equal to that.


Impact. Rose team plays so well with injuries to key players that Orlando management decides to blow up their team realizing that they aren't ahead of this low projected team (Bulls). The new Orlando team assembles and realizes they don't have a leader or somebody they can turn to when the games got tight. They actually needed sombody like Rose. Unfortunately they had DH.

Just laughable again. Orlando with Rose? No way they touch 50 games. Orlando realized they had surrounded Howard with a mediocre cast, and Howard realized it too. Why do you think Orlando had back to back 59 win seasons when Howard was clearly not as good as he was in 2011? Because his cast was much better. Rose was obviously a big reason for Chicago's great season, but you completely disregard their defense and rebounding which were HUGE. That really made it so the injuries didn't matter much, because they continued playing defense


Everybody plays a role. The most important is the finisher.

The most important is the guy who is the best player for the entire game. If someone plays better earlier, they may not need as much late.


Oh so who stepped up their game and who didn't if they fell 9 games back in a month and half? I said DH was the MVP before the allstar break when they games mean less. No arguement there.

Yet they were on the same pace.


yeah its important. But players and finishers win the game.

You know that a game is 4 quarters, not 1, right?


Miami's offense definitely looked a lot better against Chicago in the playoffs. And you have to kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Yes, because they were a better offensive team and because Lebron and Bosh were great while Rose was terrible. Yet Chicago's defense kept them right in all of the games despite Rose being a no show in both the 4th quarters and entire games.


Before that year Rose was a more efficient shooter than 7 foot Dirk in the playoffs. Rose was ball dominant because he had no creators on his team like Dirk did, had no 3 pt clutch shooters like Dirk did, had nobody step up like Dirk did, he had nobody to open him up like Dirk had. But Rose was better in all of those categories than DH was and it doesn't affect your opinion there.

Lets not act like Dirk didn't have to put his team on his back too, or that Rose has ever shown the potential to be anywhere near as efficient or score as much in the flow of the offense as Dirk has.

I never denied that Rose was a better offensive player than Dwight, though I think the inside scoring Dwight gave his team while scoring pretty close to as much as Rose in addition to how much more efficient he was makes it A LOT closer than their defense. Dwight was more of a rarity, and superstar big men who play both ends always have been more of a rarity than star perimeter players.


You didn't really just describe an MVP. That was an excuse as to why he lost games and why he wasn't MVP. When the games got meaningful toward their goal he wasn't there. His better games were in Feb. He wasn't their leader and it wasn't much of a team thing going on overthere in March and April. When he had his best playoff game they weren't in the game. When he stepped back in the playoffs that was the best Orlando played all year. He wasn't integral to their best output. There has to be a team context to the award.

So tell me how Orlando has done without Howard since 2011. They were 1-3 without him in 2011 and 4-8 without him in 2012. Stop pretending that Orlando didn't heavily rely on Howard. Rose's Bulls were 0-1 without him in 2011 and 18-9 without him in 2012. Some different players and a different coach, but the Magic are terrible yet again, while Chicago still has a winning record without Rose.

The fact is, he made Chicago a better team, but he never carried them as much as many were fooled into believing in 2011. I remember me and Fatal9 were among the only people saying it at the time. Many claimed Chicago would have a losing record without him.


It's funny how you mention the deciding game for rose versus Howard being a head to head match up that rose won giving him the MVP.

Then you turn around and say kobe didn't deserve it over paul when they were considered equal contenders for the award up to a same type of end of the season match up that kobe won just like rose did.

Identical situations with two different outcomes for you. No consistency.

Yep, I've seen so many misconceptions spread about Kobe's cast. Both Kobe and Paul had great years and legit cases for MVP, but people consistently forget that Bynum only played 35 games, Gasol only played 26 for LA. A quarter of the season without either. Yet the way some tell it he had Bynum and Gasol all year, in reality, those 2 big men never played together that year.

It's insulting that some act like Kobe had no case for the award and it was a career achievement award. The man played the most all around ball of his career, and arguably the best in general, rivaled by only 2006, imo.

Kobe was without question the best scorer in the league, but he played unselfishly, scoring effortlessly within the flow of the offense while doing his best job as a playmaker. Did anyone watch how noticeably better Kobe made his teammates that year? Pretty much every shooter and role player was playing at or near a career-high. While Kobe returned to all-defensive form, and actually was one of the best defensive guards again, and a real leader at both ends. The Lakers overachieved in reality. In a ridiculously tough West, they clearly overachieved with a young Bynum, overachieved by going 22-4 with Gasol, Odom and role players and remained over .500 without either big man. I don't get why having West, Chandler, Peja, is considered so inferior to that when all their key players missed virtually no games.

And yeah, it is a funny double standard to mention the late season Magic/Bulls game as a deciding factor when during the Laker/Hornet game, Kobe's dunk was known as the "MVP dunk."


No player should ever be penalized because he has a bigger slice of the pie to carry. If Rose is the offensive piece for his team he has a huge part of the pie for his team to succeed. When AI was killing himself because he was the offense, he had the biggest part of the offensive pie in the whole league. Even more than Nash did his first MVP. Whole teams would collapse on AI and his burden was COLLOSO. His team rebounded and played good defense but its totally unfair to exclude him from MVP talk. His team absolutely could not win 30 games without him. Nobody, not even Shaq had that burden. But you have Kobe as being better than AI that year.

I've been consistent with my criteria for MVP. I've maintained about the 2001 award that there's simply no way Iverson had a greater impact than dominant big men and top 10 all-time players Shaq and Duncan at the top of their games, who won at least as much/more games in a much tougher conference.

Slightly different scenario in 2011, Howard had the inferior record to Rose in the same conference, and while Howard wasn't as good as either Shaq or Duncan, Rose wasn't as good as '01 Iverson either, imo.

It's hilarious that you think Kobe doesn't have a case over Iverson in 2001. After the playoffs, almost everyone had Kobe as the best perimeter player. I really don't see Iverson's case as a player over Kobe. Kobe was as good or imo, better in just about every facet of the game. I never said Kobe was more deserving of a regular season MVP in 2001 than Iverson. Iverson was a candidate, while Kobe was not. Just 2011. Wade was a better player than Rose, but Rose was an MVP candidate while Wade was not.

[SCdac]

You didn't really just describe an MVP. That was an excuse as to why he lost games and why he wasn't MVP. When the games got meaningful toward their goal he wasn't there. His better games were in Feb. He wasn't their leader and it wasn't much of a team thing going on overthere in March and April. When Howard had his best playoff game they weren't in the game. When Howard stepped back in the playoffs that was the best Orlando played all year. He wasn't integral to their best output. There has to be a team context to the award.

This is really the bottom line, IMO.

Howard's value, and breakout offensive season, to a 52 win/First round exit team has to be questioned when the Magic won most games when he played less, shot less, and scored less than his season averages. Deserving of the DPOY, sure, but MVP level of play? That's simply too unclear for voters and Howard would look out of place. He would have been the first MVP to average less than 2.0 assists in about 30 years.

Howard's Season Averages: 37.6 minutes / 13.4 FGA / 22.9 PPG

Magic Wins (51 games): 35.7 minutes / 12.4 FGA / 22.1 PPG
Magic Losses (27 games): 41.3 minutes / 15.3 FGA / 24.3 PPG

Team: 99.2 PPG (16th best team Offensive Rating)

Rose in comparison was more consistent all through out for a better offensive/defensive team. He played more MPG in wins than Howard, and assisted on 6.4+ more shots in wins than Howard. He meant more to a better offensive team while being good to great on an elite defensive team. His Steals, Blocks, and Rebounds all went up in the 62 Bulls wins. His shooting range was a big part of the Bulls success too; in Wins, Rose shot 1.7/36% from three, and in losses he shot 1.2/26%. He was simply too good to ignore, clear MVP to voters.

Rose's Season Averages: 37.4 minutes / 19.7 FGA / 25.0 PPG

Bulls Wins (62 games): 37.2 minutes / 19.0 FGA / 24.7 PPG
Bulls Losses (19 games): 37.8 minutes / 21.9 FGA / 25.9 PPG

Team: 98.6 PPG (11th best team Offensive Rating)

[Glide2keva]

This is really the bottom line, IMO.

Howard's value, and breakout offensive season, to a 52 win/First round exit team has to be questioned when the Magic won most games when he played less, shot less, and scored less than his season averages. Deserving of the DPOY, sure, but MVP level of play? That's simply too unclear for voters and Howard would look out of place. He would have been the first MVP to average less than 2.0 assists in about 30 years.

Howard's Season Averages: 37.6 minutes / 13.4 FGA / 22.9 PPG

Magic Wins (51 games): 35.7 minutes / 12.4 FGA / 22.1 PPG
Magic Losses (27 games): 41.3 minutes / 15.3 FGA / 24.3 PPG

Team: 99.2 PPG (16th best team Offensive Rating)

Rose in comparison was more consistent all through out for a better offensive/defensive team. He played more MPG in wins than Howard, and assisted on 6.4+ more shots in wins than Howard. He meant more to a better offensive team while being good to great on an elite defensive team. His Steals, Blocks, and Rebounds all went up in the 62 Bulls wins. His shooting range was a big part of the Bulls success too; in Wins, Rose shot 1.7/36% from three, and in losses he shot 1.2/26%. He was simply too good to ignore, clear MVP to voters.

Rose's Season Averages: 37.4 minutes / 19.7 FGA / 25.0 PPG

Bulls Wins (62 games): 37.2 minutes / 19.0 FGA / 24.7 PPG
Bulls Losses (19 games): 37.8 minutes / 21.9 FGA / 25.9 PPG

Team: 98.6 PPG (11th best team Offensive Rating)
Bulls lost 20 games that year.

[SCdac]

Bulls lost 20 games that year.

these stats (Rose, Howard) are just the games they played in.

[chazzy]

The 2008 MVP was between Kobe and lebron. So the final game between Paul and Kobe meant nothing because Paul was never even considered for MVP, even though he was the most deserving. ESPN made sure from the start of the season to steer the MVP discussion to Kobe vs. Lebron. no one else had a chance in that season. Paul had an historic season and was hardly mentioned for MVP, except for a cursory mention here and there, but nothing serious.


This is all wrong

[Glide2keva]

This is all wrong
Okay, clarify then.

[Pointguard]

Don't you think players shooting a low % against the Bulls had to do with the fact that they're the best defensive TEAM?

Just say you didn't watch the games. They don't double the pgs. And the guards weren't getting around Rose. So when we saw Rose steal from Paul at midcourt, block Deron Williams layups, keep Nash out of the lane, it was the whole team I actually saw guarding them?


This is such a laughable argument it's unbelievable. Do you even understand how ridiculous this sounds? A player had a good game vs Orlando and almost beat them? Really? That's part of your argument. You focus WAY too much on head to head match ups. What matters is your play over the course of an entire game and season.

Ohhh so self control and loosing self control, a real problem DH had in the stretch run doesn't mean anything. When the coach doesn't have enough confidence in you to guard a rookie has nothing to do with the ship is sinking and I can't trust you. Him not playing well when it counted most and getting suspended as well has nothing to do with the season. If DH was the leader Rose was he would have said no, let me guard him. I got this.

The one game is indicative of the collapse, his coach knowing he isn't a leader or too good with self control.


Answer this question. Do you honestly believe Rose's defensive impact was even close to Howard's?

It didn't have to be - but his role of leadership had more impact than Howard's team play. IE, I will tell you this. The whole organization knew they could turn to Derrick Rose to guard Wade and have full confidence he was up for it. Why would Orlando have any confidence in DH?



That's because we're not. Howard averaged 23/14 on 59% while being the best defensive player in the league. Of course Rose wasn't equal to that.


All I will say to that is no way would LA be in the mess it is in Rose on it. Heck, Wilt averaged 40 ppg over 7 years and you said he wasn't a top five offensive player IIRC. So I know you not quoting numbers. DH has no comp what so ever at his position. And if he isn't deeply ingrained to his teams success he doesn't belong in the conversation. Kidd frequently had invisible numbers but he was often among the best in the league. PG's can control a game in many different ways. But you got to have self control first.


The most important is the guy who is the best player for the entire game. If someone plays better earlier, they may not need as much late.

I don't think you seen Chicago play. Chicago wore you down, with Rose scoring the whole game with constant attacking. The goal of the game was to win late and they won more games in the 4th quarter than any other team. Obviously, they had teams they whittled early as well.


Yes, because they were a better offensive team and because Lebron and Bosh were great while Rose was terrible. Yet Chicago's defense kept them right in all of the games despite Rose being a no show in both the 4th quarters and entire games.

Don't talk about the post season because Rose won more games than Dwight played in. Dwight was a complete non-factor and if he didn't disappear in the regular season they would have gotten beaten a higher seed and went out with some pride. I was equally impressed with Orlando in the playoffs last year with that beast Big Baby winning an impressive game against a higher seed.

Haha,



Lets not act like Dirk didn't have to put his team on his back too, or that Rose has ever shown the potential to be anywhere near as efficient or score as much in the flow of the offense as Dirk has.

So when were you against a player playing like Kobe? Wow, didn't I have an argument with you about Kobe not being the best player in the game in '06. Taking 27 shots per game??? When Lebron was more efficient and getting 31ppg 6.5 assist and going deeper in the playoffs? Or the very efficient Wade who had the same amount of assist 27ppg and winning it all. All I'm asking for is consistency.



So tell me how Orlando has done without Howard since 2011. They were 1-3 without him in 2011 and 4-8 without him in 2012. Stop pretending that Orlando didn't heavily rely on Howard. Rose's Bulls were 0-1 without him in 2011 and 18-9 without him in 2012. Some different players and a different coach, but the Magic are terrible yet again, while Chicago still has a winning record without Rose.

The team was built around Howard. He was there and effective for five years there. He was the middle of everything.

Chicago dominated the elite that year - that only happens with a great player. Right now they beat the teams they should. Rose the key piece on a stellar team. DH was the key piece on a good team. They could turn to Rose, but not to Howard.


Yep, I've seen so many misconceptions spread about Kobe's cast. Both Kobe and Paul had great years and legit cases for MVP, but people consistently forget that Bynum only played 35 games, Gasol only played 26 for LA. A quarter of the season without either. Yet the way some tell it he had Bynum and Gasol all year, in reality, those 2 big men never played together that year.

Wow, sounds very similar to when Rose's team had the best record in the league and a new system, new teammates, new coach who never coached before, other injuries, inexperienced players. But when Lebron had better all around stats, better in every way possible and more efficient (he was more prolific and more efficient scoring wise) don't let that seem like a DH/Rose comparison. That's too hard to comprehend.



And yeah, it is a funny double standard to mention the late season Magic/Bulls game as a deciding factor when during the Laker/Hornet game, Kobe's dunk was known as the "MVP dunk."

In March and April DH was non-factor in general. It was just amusing when Chicago beat them twice while playing them once. Orlando was going to lose the game - that was given being that they were on the collapse and Howard had control issues.



It's hilarious that you think Kobe doesn't have a case over Iverson in 2001. After the playoffs, almost everyone had Kobe as the best perimeter player. I really don't see Iverson's case as a player over Kobe. Kobe was as good or imo, better in just about every facet of the game. I never said Kobe was more deserving of a regular season MVP in 2001 than Iverson. Iverson was a candidate, while Kobe was not. Just 2011. Wade was a better player than Rose, but Rose was an MVP candidate while Wade was not.

There is no indication that at that time Kobe could handle a years worth of focus on him. In fact when Detroit focused on him he looked really really bad and that was with 4 more years of maturity. If you provided a Shaq like distraction for AI, the game hardest driver to the basket, it really wouldn't be close - he was better than Kobe. Shaq totally distorts the amount of attention every other player gets. As a defender you are off balance when a player like Shaq is on the court. There is no way you can regroup to catch Allen. Wade won right away with him and he was no where near the player he was when he was in his prime. And Wade was no where near as fast as AI.

[tpols]

Point guard you are being heavily heavily biased in your assessment of rose. Your roundabout answer for who the better defensive player was with rose being trusted to guard whoever versus Dwight not being trusted is absurd. Dwight locked the entire paint down with incredible help defense all year. He had ten fold the defensive impact rose had and I watched the Bulls play all the time.

[Pointguard]

This is really the bottom line, IMO.

Howard's value, and breakout offensive season, to a 52 win/First round exit team has to be questioned when the Magic won most games when he played less, shot less, and scored less than his season averages. Deserving of the DPOY, sure, but MVP level of play? That's simply too unclear for voters and Howard would look out of place. He would have been the first MVP to average less than 2.0 assists in about 30 years.

Howard's Season Averages: 37.6 minutes / 13.4 FGA / 22.9 PPG

Magic Wins (51 games): 35.7 minutes / 12.4 FGA / 22.1 PPG
Magic Losses (27 games): 41.3 minutes / 15.3 FGA / 24.3 PPG

Team: 99.2 PPG (16th best team Offensive Rating)

Rose in comparison was more consistent all through out for a better offensive/defensive team. He played more MPG in wins than Howard, and assisted on 6.4+ more shots in wins than Howard. He meant more to a better offensive team while being good to great on an elite defensive team. His Steals, Blocks, and Rebounds all went up in the 62 Bulls wins. His shooting range was a big part of the Bulls success too; in Wins, Rose shot 1.7/36% from three, and in losses he shot 1.2/26%. He was simply too good to ignore, clear MVP to voters.

Rose's Season Averages: 37.4 minutes / 19.7 FGA / 25.0 PPG

Bulls Wins (62 games): 37.2 minutes / 19.0 FGA / 24.7 PPG
Bulls Losses (19 games): 37.8 minutes / 21.9 FGA / 25.9 PPG

Team: 98.6 PPG (11th best team Offensive Rating)

Wow, thanks Sdac! I always said that DH wasn't even fully integrated into his team. His play wasn't related to how his team performed like other stars the last two years. What's wild is that Rose's take it to you style always affected the defense, even if he missed, as teams panicked and began blowing assignments - which affects concentration. While DH's leave the kitchen when its hot style always delighted the other team. LOL.

[Pointguard]

Point guard you are being heavily heavily biased in your assessment of rose. Your roundabout answer for who the better defensive player was with rose being trusted to guard whoever versus Dwight not being trusted is absurd. Dwight locked the entire paint down with incredible help defense all year. He had ten fold the defensive impact rose had and I watched the Bulls play all the time.

I said "It didn't have to be - but his role of leadership had more impact than Howard's team play."

Sure Dwight played better defense. But nobody took him serious.

http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2012/08/dwight-howard-clown.jpg

Thanks to http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/08/10/kevin-garnett-thinks-dwight-howard-is-a-clown/

Otherwords the qualification of who is better has more than just the components of offense/defense. There's confidence of leadership, ability to attack, to keep pressure on a team, being a finisher, being someone the team can turn to, response to big games, response to pressure, opposing players knowing that you are serious, etc.

[Whoah10115]

Honestly, PointGuard's posts are a big reason why I'm not interested in this thread. I generally like you (same with SCdac) but your posts in this thread are complete and utter bullshit.


You're making stuff up, things that are indicative of nothing. Anyone would respect your opinion that Rose was the MVP. And even tho I hate that you think it's not close I can try and respect that. But your posts here are bullshit. You're making things up. You can say whatever you want but Derrick Rose didn't always even guard the opposing PG's (and please, everyone spare me saying otherwise, because you're lying to me, and I watched too). The Bulls clogged the lane, the Bulls disrupted pick n' roll. Rose was no more than average as a defender. He stepped up more against the better PG's, I'll admit that because I'm honest when I argue. But he never played anything more than decent defense and mostly he went at the other guy and had an MVP year.


But you lie if you say he took his man on 1v1 all the time. You lie if you tell me he fought over screens or went under and stayed with his man. You lie if you tell me he rotated better than anyone on that team other than Boozer. You lie if you tell me those things.


You lie if you tell me that SVG didn't trust Dwight Howard at any point. You lie straight. Nobody collapsed. Rose's team was better than Dwight's team and that you cannot argue. Rose lost Noah and Boozer for large chunks but Howard didn't have anyone on his team as good as Noah or even a disappointing Boozer or Luol Deng, for even 1 game. So be fair when you argue.


SCdac, you know I have respect for you but your arguments here are lame. You respond to what you want to respond to and when someone complained that you ignored the rest you attempted to justify it. No. Just like you did with me in that post (tho I take into consideration that maybe you were just ribbing there) you bolded two sentences that make me sound like an ass but not the rest and the point made was that I only make declarative statements. Be fair when you argue if the person you're arguing with is attempting to really discuss. And you can't say that I don't. If you believe that I do, then don't even respond in the first place. That's fair, as I (and others) are trying to make our points.


Pointguard...you post a pic of Dwight in clown makeup but that's just a bullshit way to talk to someone else. To invalidate even the basic argument that Howard deserved to be in the conversation is garbage. And when you post pictures like that, you're doing exactly that.


And much of what you said is not true. Again, I watched Rose that year and while his defense wasn't bad it wasn't very good. He'd D up his man pretty decently when he did, but he walked around a lot. If you say otherwise, you're not telling the truth.


If you think his impact was greater than Dwight's, then go ahead and believe that and argue that. But don't talk like there's no argument, because that's stupid. And it's only stupid on the basis that it's not remotely close to reality.


Lastly, now I will sound like a jerk because this is the last time I'll even enter this thread. So unless you want to make a point for other people don't even bother to quote me. You don't respond to anything anyone says, you just use it as starting point and go somewhere else with it. The people who have responded to you have at least attempted to do just that.


I'm out...and congratulations to a troll of epic proportions, who has created a seemingly innocuous troll thread that continues to roll on and on. And I contribute. To you, my friend, I genuinely :bowdown:

[tpols]

I said "It didn't have to be - but his role of leadership had more impact than Howard's team play."

Sure Dwight played better defense. But nobody took him serious.

http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2012/08/dwight-howard-clown.jpg

Thanks to http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/08/10/kevin-garnett-thinks-dwight-howard-is-a-clown/

Otherwords the qualification of who is better has more than just the components of offense/defense. There's confidence of leadership, ability to attack, to keep pressure on a team, being a finisher, being someone the team can turn to, response to big games, response to pressure, opposing players knowing that you are serious, etc.
There are those factors.. Rose was more respected and a better leader. But he wasn't providing close to the level of defensive impact Dwight was.

Chicagos defense did not come from roses leadership.. Chicago is STILL playing all world defense right now with rose completely out of the picture. It's Deng, Noah, booze, and a bunch of role players committing under thibs slow pace system and defensive philosophies. They are executing a game plan..

If what you are saying was true the team would've fell off without rose. They are still playing great without him. Guys like Noah provide great great leadership on D. His energy is contagious and they have one of the best perimeter defenders in the league in Deng. Rose gave them an offensive identity but his impact on defense was minimal