I was watching Shaq ravage the 76ers in the 2001 finals and it forces me to ask.....

[Kblaze8855]

.....are we just all full of shit on the issue of who the best players are?

And I dont mean that to say Shaq is the GOAT(though....).

Im asking about bigmen in general.

First let me show you the bloodbath I was watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0

And its not like that was the least bit unusual for him. He did go out and have 60/20 just because it was his birthday. Most of the time he was just kinda playing in the flow.


Now and then I read all time rankings with a Kobe or Lebron type up top 7-8.

And I have to ask myself....

If I throw them into this mix and pick someone to actually build a team around:

Shaq
Moses
David robinson
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Ewing
Dirk
Duncan
Walton
Russell
Karl
Artis Gilmore
KG
Webber
Kareem


There are 11 people there id have to at least consider taking over either of them.


Shaq in his prime was straight up LLcoolJfromIntoodeeping ( http://youtu.be/7UGYADwPc0E?t=1m28s ) these dudes. Just ****ing em with the pool stick screaming "Love it!".

Hakeem could realistically drop 40, prevent 6-7 offensive rebounds by winning a battle for the ball, reject or alter 11 otherwise easy shots, get 2-3 steals, prevent 12 drives from happening in the first place, and find 5 guys for wide open 3s in a night.

He could have a role to play in the scoring or prevention of 60-70 points and not even seem to have anything like a career game. Dude did average 33/10/5 with 3 blocks a game on a title run. He had so many games with 5 blocks and 3-4 steals that it wasnt the least bit noteworthy. He was putting up 24/14/ 5 blocks and 2 steals a game one season.

Moses Malones and drobs game logs read like a video game played on rookie.

These are the only NON 40 point games Kareem had one playoff run:


27/16/7
28/14/7/4
36/26
30/10/5
21/20/8/7
30/17/4


Those are his only non 40 point games those playoffs. And he had 17, 18, 18, and 19 rebounds in the 40+ point games. 9 blocks in one of them.




It may not be "fair" to guards but bigmen do have a natural advantage. They play right by the basket so they anchor defenses and get easier shots.

As good a defender as a Bruce bowen could be he cant literally prevent the basket from getting attacked.

Shaq....

In 20 years...I saw him dunked on maybe twice. Only once in a physical straight up attacking you on the drive kinda way. Coleman. In his rookie season. And next time Shaq played the Nets:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/TvE6KPuwt7s/hqdefault.jpg

He literally tore the backboard down.

A couple guys dunked...by him. Patterson dunked on him on a putback.

But guards were not just running into the lane to climb Mt.shaq and prove a point like on every other bigman.

Thats an intimidation you cant put a price on.


Your Shaq...Hakeems...Kareems and Wilts. Even some a notch down like pre injury Ewing...Drob.

These people can have such an impact on the floor im not sure most of them arent being unfairly overlooked in the issue of best players....just because its sexier to some to be great...and small.

Ive heard it said here that I had a bigman bias once when I think I said id take some star center over Kobe.

I dont see it that way.

I see it as....being real about what I can expect from a great bigman. And how even a lower tier great can do more for my team than a guard often ranked higher all time.

I dont have much trouble seeing David robinson winning 55-60 games on the Cavs or winning a ring with the Heat(maybe not this years....11? Sure he could...still had the real Wade).

I dont find it unlikely that Hakeem or even Duncan when teamed with Scottie Pippen could form a dynasty that won just as much.


Doesnt make all of them equals.

But it has to mean....something.

If may not be "fair". But the bigman advantage is reality.

Guards can do numbers. We are all aware of them.

But two roughly equal players...the bigman can generally do more to make a team win I believe.

Doesnt mean its shown on every team. Coaching plays a factor. Talent. All that.

But generally speaking the bigman advantage is enough to make up for the guard being higher ranked all time to me.

Lebron is the best player right now. Easily.

But that doesnt mean it would be an easy choice to take him over a number of centers who will never get a top 10 ranking. Especially to play this scum at the 5 now.

You could justify taking like.....6-7 bigmen over virtually everyone ever if you throw out the legacy.

In an all time NBA draft....I suspect a lot more bigmen would go high than moderns fans would guess. Other than MJ going top 3 im not sure how it plays out.

But I dont think it would look very much like an all time greatest player list.

I suspect some of that "Always take the bigman" would happen and we might watch the likes of Drob, Moses, And Ewing shoot past a number of guys we rank over them now.

[IllegalD]

Debatable. I guess it depends on your definition of "better".

To me it's more impressive when a "little guy"/perimeter player is able to dominate and lead his team to championships as the best player. (MJ, LeBron, Isiah, Kobe, etc).

An elite defensive perimeter player will NEVER have as much impact on a game/team than an elite defensive bigman. That has to do mostly with size than anything. A perimeter player can only guard one guy, whereas a bigman can change an entire team's defense.

So you would pick all those bigmen (some of them who never won anything) over Kobe/LeBron. But MJ is somehow exempt? :confusedshrug:

Sounds more like you have pro-Jordan bias as opposed to pro-bigman bias.

:lol

[PickernRoller]

I remember him getting schooled by Hakeem too. But he was young then although he was more athletic back then too.

Let's get real, Mutombo was way over his head at that time + kinda injured if I recall. However, no way of stopping Shaq anyway you put it. Too big, too strong.

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt say all. I said id have to consider...11. Over Jordan id have to consider.....6. Im not saying id take 6. Or that id take 11 over Lebron/Kobe.

Im saying there are people id have to take into consideration. Some of them not near any of those 3 on an all time list.

[unbreakable]

.

Lebron is the best player right now. Easily.



:roll: :roll:

lebron has a questionable midrange game.. still an average post game, not a legitimate 3 pt threat.. yet he's the best EASILY?

:roll: :roll:

kobe, durant, melo, duncan, rondo, rose all do more with less.. lebron needs the most stacked squad of the modern era in the weakest conference of all time to win. yea.. but hes the best EASILY.. keep choking on his chorizo, blaze

[SilkkTheShocker]

:roll: :roll:

lebron has a questionable midrange game.. still an average post game, not a legitimate 3 pt threat.. yet he's the best EASILY?

:roll: :roll:

kobe, durant, melo, duncan, rondo, rose all do more with less.. lebron needs the most stacked squad of the modern era in the weakest conference of all time to win. yea.. but hes the best EASILY.. keep choking on his chorizo, blaze

Agreed. What would LeBron do without Wade's 15ppg and Bosh's 12ppg this postseason?






:oldlol:

[305Baller]

Shaq is the most dominant ever.

[Kblaze8855]

You dont care for Lebrons midrange game and 3 point shot but you mention Rondo?

Anyway....

Im gonna disregard you until I forget this happened/who you are. Not an argument worth having.

[unbreakable]

Agreed. What would LeBron do without Wade's 15ppg and Bosh's 12ppg this postseason?



bosh dropped 30/15 and the gamewinner on the spurs without lebron.. lebrons ball dominance and inability to play off the ball makes his teammates worse.. plain and simple (unless youre a spotup 3 pt shooter then lebron makes you better)

[unbreakable]

Im gonna disregard you until I forget this happened/who you are. Not an argument worth having.


same with the lebron flop thread.. keep hiding bro :cheers:

[ILLsmak]

That's why I get so mad when people drool over Bron or Kobe. I remember watching Shaq his whole career and I knew what he could do against any legend or in any era. He was just that good. But I never even though of calling him GOAT or even GOAT big.

All I said was he could match up with anyone. I think that's the best thing you can say about any player. We'll never know who is better unless they go at each other. It's like trying to predict what will happen on a blind date.

-Smak

[Orlando Magic]

Yeah... perimeter players are overrated.

Bigs will never get the credit they deserve because their games aren't as asethetically pleasing and people can't relate to bigs because most of the time they themselves aren't big.

There's no way I'm taking Jordan or LeBron in an all time draft over some of those guys. No way.

Bigs aren't flashy. People don't like it. They want to feel on some level they could get out there and give it a go... even though they couldn't.

[SilkkTheShocker]

bosh dropped 30/15 and the gamewinner on the spurs without lebron.. lebrons ball dominance and inability to play off the ball makes his teammates worse.. plain and simple (unless youre a spotup 3 pt shooter then lebron makes you better)

You are honestly going to brag about a regular season game? :oldlol: You got nothing buddy. LeBron won a championship with Bosh having the same impact as Birdman. Hell, even Birdman had more points in Game 7 :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

you dont judge all time players based on "who youd pick first"

people pick centers first because theres a way bigger drop off from the best centers to the average centers

while there is a way bigger abundance of solid/really good guards, small forwards

if you miss out on a kobe, lebron or jordan. you can still survive with a 23ppg solid left over player with good defense


but if you miss out on a legendary center that averages 30ppg/15rpg guy. then you might have to settle for a 17-18ppg/9rpg center with far inferior shot blocking


its just allot more rare. and if you miss out on a kareem, shaq, wilt, hakeem. then you'l never beat a team with those guys when your starting center is pau gasol or somebody


but if you have kareem, shaq, wilt, or hakeem with a guard like mitch richmond and a forward like grant hill... youre gonna win


that doesnt make kobe, jordan or lebron any less of a player just because theres better backups in a draft. and their position is deeper




sorry


shaq is still behind guys like jordan, magic, kobe, bird and maybe someday lebron

[Carbine]

You would not take 11 people over LeBron to start a franchise with.

Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Kareem

That's it.

Dirk? **** that....not even a discussion.

Ewing? No way, not with what we know happened. He wasn't the same after injuries.

KG? The same KG who missed the playoffs 3 straight years in his prime over LeBron who took slightly better teammates to 60+ wins....and took a bunch of scrubs to the finals?

Walton was injured way to quickly. With what we know happened injury wise it's an insult to even put his name there.

Shaq isn't even a slam dunk. It's a known fact he was going to cause trouble, his ego and work ethic bothered people. He burned huge bridges everywhere he has went and gone.

If I draft a guy...as great as he was.....do I draft the guy whos a 10 and have him for 5-6 years (Shaq)and then almost certainly he's going to leave? Or take the guy who's a 9.5 who's with me for 15+ years?

[PJR]

A truly dominant two way big man has ALWAYS has a larger impact than a wing player. I don't care how great they are. Guys of the Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem caliber impact literally EVERY possession.

[Kblaze8855]

While I may agree with some of what you said...

I seem to remember you being 6'7''. Were you an unappreciated bigman in Hs athletics?

I was part of an unappreciated defense in HS football which is why I feel nearly every QB ever is overrated.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Im not a Shaq hater, but the guy was by far the biggest front runner in NBA history. He was only a leader when thing were going well. After that he was throwing teammates under the bus complaining about touches. The man was swept 6 different times in the playoffs.

[jzek]

It used to be that Hakeem was my GOAT center but after I read in another post that Hakeem lost EIGHT TIMES in the first round I quickly changed my GOAT center to Shaq.

[StocktonFan]

GOAT

No one could guard him in his era

No one could stop him
Most dominant player to ever play the basketball

[jzek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0


Imagine if that Shaq were playing today... 40 and 20 per game EASILY. Kobe is so blessed to have been paired with prime Shaq and have been gifted with 3 easy rings...

[unbreakable]

KG? The same KG who missed the playoffs 3 straight years in his prime over LeBron who took slightly better teammates to 60+ wins....and took a bunch of scrubs to the finals?


:facepalm

KG played in the west and with way worse teammates than Lebron.. in fact KG played with teammates ala TMAC in Orlando .. flatout garbage

[G-train]

I'd say it is hard to judge, because you will also note in that game 10+ years ago that the defence was much less complex and there was different rules.
You can compact the lane now for 2.99999 seconds, that alone changes stuff quite a bit. Also guys are more professional and IMO much more athletic league over. You nobodies like Willie Green dunking like David Thompson in layup lines.

I would take Lebron over just about anyone ever bar Jordan. The amount of scrutiny weighing on him (literally everyone is a journo with twitter/forums/etc), the increase of everything being scrutinized by everyone, complex defences, complex metrics and huge amounts poured into resources.. and Lebron is PROVEN to handle all of that and win 2 titles, which to me is just an incredible achievement, especially given all the above.
Given all the above, I would likely take Duncan third.

[Droid101]

Nobody 7 foot or taller in the league today can move like Shaq. Wow. That's some gorgeous post play right there.

Sad that we have to praise Shaq for his post moves in this day and age.

[TonyMontana]

Shaq is the best basketball player ever.

It's not a popular opinion, but no guy was as dominant as he was.

At 7'1 350 pounds, ELITE athletiiscm, a near 8 foot wingspan this guy was the real life version of a Spacejam MONSTAR. Shaq was ****ing huge and that statement doesn't even do him justice. He made every one else look like pubes.

Shaq got his points so effortlessly. When you combine his physical abilities, combined with a beautiful touch around the rim there is nothing that can compare.

For the first 7 years of Shaqs career he never had a real coach. When he had Phil Jackson he finally utilized him to his full potential which he should have been doing every year of his career.

There is no player I'd rather build a team around than Shaq.

[SilkkTheShocker]

:facepalm

KG played in the west and with way worse teammates than Lebron.. in fact KG played with teammates ala TMAC in Orlando .. flatout garbage

There is never an excuse for a player losing as many times in the 1st round as KG did. Replace him with TD and the T-Wolves actually advance a few times.

[G-train]

Shaq is the best basketball player ever.

It's not a popular opinion, but no guy was as dominant as he was.

At 7'1 350 pounds, ELITE athletiiscm, a near 8 foot wingspan this guy was the real life version of a Spacejam MONSTAR. Shaq was ****ing huge and that statement doesn't even do him justice. He made every one else look like pubes.

Shaq got his points so effortlessly. When you combine his physical abilities, combined with a beautiful touch around the rim there is nothing that can compare.

For the first 7 years of Shaqs career he never had a real coach. When he had Phil Jackson he finally utilized him to his full potential which he should have been doing every year of his career.

There is no player I'd rather build a team around than Shaq.

Ok, what about Shaq matched up with a 6'10 mobile guy you can shoot that he has to defend down the other end on pick and rolls off horns and diving to corners and the basket.... and while posting up he has 2 guys hanging around the basket clogging the lane, and then on his pass out of the double team, elite athletes are rotating the ass out of everything and forcing role players to make 19 foot J's.

I'll have Lebron.

[Droid101]

Ok, what about Shaq matched up with a 6'10 mobile guy you can shoot that he has to defend down the other end on pick and rolls off horns and diving to corners and the basket.... and while posting up he has 2 guys hanging around the basket clogging the lane, and then on his pass out of the double team, elite athletes are rotating the ass out of everything and forcing role players to make 19 foot J's.

I'll have Lebron.
The Pacers almost beat the Heat with Roy Hibbert as their big, non-mobile post threat. Think if they had Shaq instead of Hibbert. It would have been a massacre.

[Kblaze8855]

Also guys are more professional and IMO much more athletic league over. You nobodies like Willie Green dunking like David Thompson in layup lines.

cmon man...

People have been saying that "League is much more athletic now" shit every 5 years for 40 years. Really. Ive heard John Havlicek say it of like...1972.

If the NBA were getting much more athletic at the rate that shit has been said...and it happened since 2001...guys would be superman by now.

The league will NEVER be much more athletic than it was in 2001. Not until huimans evolve. Those claims bother me about the 80s.

We are doing it for 2001 now?

It has to stop. even if the league is creeping along getting more athletic...it sure as hell has not just jumped up "much more" in 10 years.

[Orlando Magic]

While I may agree with some of what you said...

I seem to remember you being 6'7''. Were you an unappreciated bigman in Hs athletics?

I was part of an unappreciated defense in HS football which is why I feel nearly every QB ever is overrated.

I am 6 foot 7 and yes.

Hell I still go out and ball for fun and if they feed me down low I get easy buckets or hit open teammates. But if I'm super dominant they stop passing me the ball in favor of shot jacking. Lol. And then we typically lose.

[get these NETS]

OP

in an effort to promote Shaq

NBA refs swallowed their whistles for about 3 years straight and Shaq was allowed to lower shoulder and elbow into stationary defender

in fact he FAMOUSLY elbowed stationary Mutombo in the mouth in that sixers lakers finals and ...you guessed it NO whistle


shitt was a joke


Shaq is league manufactured superstar....

[Kblaze8855]

I knew it. I know guard hatred when I see it. I had a bit of it and I was just an undersized 4 who couldnt shoot.

[G-train]

The league is definitely is more athletic as a whole.

People need to try being too smart for their own good, you are completely naive if you think otherwise.

Sure 20, 30, 40 years ago there was a % of good athletes. Now 95% are freak athletes.

[Kblaze8855]

OP

in an effort to promote Shaq

NBA refs swallowed their whistles for about 3 years straight and Shaq was allowed to lower shoulder and elbow into stationary defender

in fact he FAMOUSLY elbowed stationary Mutombo in the mouth in that sixers lakers finals and ...you guessed it NO whistle


shitt was a joke


Shaq is league manufactured superstar....


Shaq was the NBA player of the week...his first week in the NBA. They must have started early.

[IllegalD]

I didnt say all. I said id have to consider...11. Over Jordan id have to consider.....6. Im not saying id take 6. Or that id take 11 over Lebron/Kobe.

Im saying there are people id have to take into consideration. Some of them not near any of those 3 on an all time list.

Fair enough, Blaze.

Out of curiosity who are the 11 you'd consider over LeBron/Kobe. Who are the 6 over Mike?

Here's a Bob Costas interview with Phil Jackson in which Costas asks a similar question to what you're proposing, and Phil's answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO8B34V7ufk&feature=player_detailpage#t=217s

The major difference that Phil notes between MJ (perimter) and Shaq (bigman), is that Shaq needs someone to get him the ball vs MJ who can take it himself the full 90 feet and create something for himself/others.

So while its true that most of the all-time great perimeter players who won chips needed all-star bigman to do so, the same could be said of the reverse: all the big-men that have won also had all-star guards to get them the ball. Russell had Cousy, Shaq had Kobe/Wade/Penny, Kareem had Magic/Oscar, Wilt had Goodrich/West, Duncan had Parker/Ginobili, etc, etc.

[Kblaze8855]

95% freaks? I dont believe you thought that out too well. I say that even knowing it was hyperbole.

[Orlando Magic]

I knew it. I know guard hatred when I see it. I had a bit of it and I was just an undersized 4 who couldnt shoot.

:roll:

[get these NETS]

Shaq was the NBA player of the week...his first week in the NBA. They must have started early.


was waiting for you to dispute that he threw elbow in mutombo's face in finals to NO whistle


but how can anybody dispute that?

[TonyMontana]

Ok, what about Shaq matched up with a 6'10 mobile guy you can shoot that he has to defend down the other end on pick and rolls off horns and diving to corners and the basket.... and while posting up he has 2 guys hanging around the basket clogging the lane, and then on his pass out of the double team, elite athletes are rotating the ass out of everything and forcing role players to make 19 foot J's.

I'll have Lebron.

Sigh

Another kid that thinks Shaq is the guy he was on Cleveland and Boston. Please watch the video OP included.

Shaq COULD defend guys outside when he was younger and his LENGTH, STRENGTH, ATHLETISICM made it a nightmare for guys to score. The ONLY way you could beat him was to hope the refs called him for a touch foul because Shaq simply touching guys made them tremble. Monstrous strength.

Shaq could literally back a guy down with one dribble and then just dunk it in over his head. His size, strength, and wingspan let him do this. And he made this move quick. Chances are your help is going to be extremely late and it results in an And1 dunk. If you decide to help before he even gets the ball enjoy having wide open shooters.

Only one that can stop Shaq is refs who give him bogus fouls just because he is so big and strong.

Bron Brons halfcourt offense doesn't even compare to Shaqs.

[G-train]

The Pacers almost beat the Heat with Roy Hibbert as their big, non-mobile post threat. Think if they had Shaq instead of Hibbert. It would have been a massacre.

That's a pretty uncomplicated way of looking at it.

Miami played to make Hibbert (a generally average offensive player) beat them.
He got 20/10 with the Heat basically allowing it, not just in that series, but as a roster as a whole, by design for overall success.
I'm not talking about just Miami with my posts.
If Shaq played for a different team right now, Miami would have a different roster possibly, or possibly would have employed different schemes than what they employed against Indiana.
But Shaq, Hakeem and D-Rob don't play.. It's a different league now. Which is my overall point.

[G-train]

95% freaks? I dont believe you thought that out too well. I say that even knowing it was hyperbole.

Ah, if you are 6'6 plus and can run and jump like these NBA players, in what could be the the most athletic competition in the world, competing and often beating guys like Lebron who might be the best overall athlete ever, then yes they are freaks.

[G-train]

Sigh

Another kid that thinks Shaq is the guy he was on Cleveland and Boston. Please watch the video OP included.

Shaq COULD defend guys outside when he was younger and his LENGTH, STRENGTH, ATHLETISICM made it a nightmare for guys to score. The ONLY way you could beat him was to hope the refs called him for a touch foul because Shaq simply touching guys made them tremble. Monstrous strength.

Shaq could literally back a guy down with one dribble and then just dunk it in over his head. His size, strength, and wingspan let him do this. And he made this move quick. Chances are your help is going to be extremely late and it results in an And1 dunk. If you decide to help before he even gets the ball enjoy having wide open shooters.

Only one that can stop Shaq is refs who give him bogus fouls just because he is so big and strong.

Bron Brons halfcourt offense doesn't even compare to Shaqs.

This is a spectacular noob post. Something a 5th grader would write.
I watched Shaq's career in detail. This is like reading about a super hero, something a casual fan would think Shaq was.

[TonyMontana]

To people saying "everyone is an athlete now"

Just watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgqoFTh2lZg

And no, actually watch the video dont just skip over it. Tell me how many guys in the league can do this shit right now. *** it, tell me how many guys in league HISTORY can do this shit.

Shaq is the top athletic specimen in NBA History, when you look at his height, wingspan, strength, athleticism, footwork all combined into one.

[Asukal]

cmon man...

People have been saying that "League is much more athletic now" shit every 5 years for 40 years. Really. Ive heard John Havlicek say it of like...1972.

If the NBA were getting much more athletic at the rate that shit has been said...and it happened since 2001...guys would be superman by now.

The league will NEVER be much more athletic than it was in 2001. Not until huimans evolve. Those claims bother me about the 80s.

We are doing it for 2001 now?

It has to stop. even if the league is creeping along getting more athletic...it sure as hell has not just jumped up "much more" in 10 years.

Young idiots of today think athletes from 10+ years ago are slow and unathletic. Today the ring is still 10 feet from the ground and players from 50 years ago could dunk the ball at the same ring height... :facepalm

"Bigger stronger faster" argument is stupid and ignorant. No explanation needed. :facepalm

If athletes today are so much bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes from a few decades ago, then the ancient times must have had ant-size people for the olympics. :rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

another useless thread.

everyone knows that two-way bigs are the single most valuable "type" of player you can have. the problem is that many of the guys you listed aren't really two-way so taking them over a prime kobe or lebron would just be dumb.

ewing was never anywhere near being a great offensive player. dirk is average defensively. moses was never a defensive anchor. robinson had major holes in his offensive game that got exposed almost every post-season of his prime. barkley is horrible defensively. karl wasn't a true anchor and was overrated offensively. webber? gilmore? lol c'mon now.

you'd have to be a dumass to take any of these guys over a lebron or even kobe.

now guys like KG/Shaq/Russ/Wilt/Hakeem/Kareem/Duncan are true "two-way" bigs and id definitely take them over a superstar perimeter player in most cases. and all of them are considered top 10-15 all-time and higher than kobe or lebron on many lists. :confusedshrug:

and of course smalls have their own inherent advantages:

they don't need the the ball delivered to them.
they'll always be superior options in the clutch.
far better creation/play-making because they can see the court better, handle the ball, and aren't as affected by double-teams.
they can attack from different areas of the court. thats why the best offensive players in history are all smalls(magic,oscar,jordan,nash,kobe,wade,lbj,west, etc) with the exception of shaq/kareem.



and everyone knows that "all-time lists" aren't the same thing as asking who would you rather start a franchise with.

[G-train]

What people don't understand is, a guy like George Hill is an athletic freak of nature.
Guy's like him even 15 years ago were not as tall, long or athletic, weren't as informed/intelligent, weren't as equipped for success. He is just a solid role player.
The league OVERALL is more thorough, and more advanced in every facet. It is harder to play and harder to succeed.
That's why I take Lebron, because he has succeeded in the league when it's at highest point.

[DropStep]

I wouldnt say Shaq is the best basketball player ever but he was the most physically dominating player to ever play. An absolute beast.

[G-train]

To people saying "everyone is an athlete now"

Just watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgqoFTh2lZg

And no, actually watch the video dont just skip over it. Tell me how many guys in the league can do this shit right now. *** it, tell me how many guys in league HISTORY can do this shit.

Shaq is the top athletic specimen in NBA History, when you look at his height, wingspan, strength, athleticism, footwork all combined into one.

A singular, once in a 1000 years player.

[Asukal]

The league is definitely is more athletic as a whole.

People need to try being too smart for their own good, you are completely naive if you think otherwise.

Sure 20, 30, 40 years ago there was a % of good athletes. Now 95% are freak athletes.

:biggums:

What an idiot. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[greymatter]

You take peak play, then a lot of centers should be taken ahead of the likes of Lebron/MJ/Kobe.

Given how their careers developed and panned out, there are quite a few bigs that I'd easily cross off:

Drob: just never had it as the man when it mattered most (playoffs), despite being the best all-around (regular season) center for a 1-2 year stretch.

Ewing: Fell in love with that jumpshot, awkward looking running hook, slow lumbering gait. Uhm, no. Easily the weakest of all between his superstar center contemporaries.

Moses: Hard to say since I never saw him in his prime. But since his numbers suggest that he was most definitely a 1-way player and wasn't much of a defensive presence other than on the glass, he'd make the list.

Walton: Nothing much needs to be said. Guy was on crutches for more than half his playing career.

_______________________________


If we're talking about winning as many titles as possible throughout an entire career, even the likes of Shaq and Hakeem isn't necessarily a shoo-in to take ahead someone like MJ or Lebron.

Shaq was often injured, lazy, and never bothered to further develop his game after a few seasons into the league (came too easy for him because of the massive advantage he had physically). He was also one of the worst of drama queens who just had to burn bridges everywhere he went.

Hakeem might never even have any mention among all time greats if Jordan didn't retire and Barkley come down with injury at the worst times against the Rockets. (groin/shoulder in consecutive seasons 93-94, 94-95). He took a while to develop. Yes, he's probably the best all-around talent at center to ever play the game, but his accolades clearly come with an *.

Only clear cut ones I'd take in a heartbeat over Lebron/MJ are Chamberlain, Jabbar. To a lesser degree, Russell and Duncan. A tier below that, Shaq and Hakeem.

[Orlando Magic]

What people don't understand is, a guy like George Hill is an athletic freak of nature.
Guy's like him even 15 years ago were not as tall, long or athletic, weren't as informed/intelligent, weren't as equipped for success. He is just a solid role player.
The league OVERALL is more thorough, and more advanced in every facet. It is harder to player and harder to succeed.
That's why I take Lebron, because he has succeeded in the league when it's at highest point.

You're wrong. Today's game is so much easier for perimeter players it's sickening. Lack of bigs and rule changes.

I honestly think Jordan would average over 40 per game in today's era.

[G-train]

:biggums:

What an idiot. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Nice argument.
I am obviously right.

[IGOTGAME]

What people don't understand is, a guy like George Hill is an athletic freak of nature.
Guy's like him even 15 years ago were not as tall, long or athletic, weren't as informed/intelligent, weren't as equipped for success. He is just a solid role player.
The league OVERALL is more thorough, and more advanced in every facet. It is harder to play and harder to succeed.
That's why I take Lebron, because he has succeeded in the league when it's at highest point.

This the silliest shit I've heard all day and I work with silly individuals.

15 years ago and George hill is exactly what he is today. Maybe a bit worst judging by his handle when facing just a bit of hand checking.

[G-train]

You're wrong. Today's game is so much easier for perimeter players it's sickening. Lack of bigs and rule changes.

I honestly think Jordan would average over 40 per game in today's era.

28-30 ppg.

So would Shaq.

I would take Jordan or Lebron over Shaq in todays league.

Which is all I have tried to say.

The league has changed so much over 50 years, you cannot compare the players.

[G-train]

This the silliest shit I've heard all day and I work with silly individuals.

15 years ago and George hill is exactly what he is today. Maybe a bit worst judging by his handle when facing just a bit of hand checking.

I'd say that's an amateur statement, and you lack comprehension.
The league has evolved to the point where role players are often amazing atheltes, instead of mostly just the stars, as the league overall is much more athletic.

[IGOTGAME]

28-30 ppg.

So would Shaq.

I would take Jordan or Lebron over Shaq in todays league.

Which is all I have tried to say.

The league has changed so much over 50 years, you cannot compare the players.
The game hasn't changed much. Also, don't put Jordan and Lebron in same sentence. In this league today, Shaq would win a title every year he was healthy and had a top 5-7 supporting cast. He is that much betterthaneveryone.

[G-train]

You're wrong. Today's game is so much easier for perimeter players it's sickening. Lack of bigs and rule changes.

I honestly think Jordan would average over 40 per game in today's era.

And I would suggest you think your post through - why is their a lack of bigs, and why did the NBA change the rules?

[G-train]

The game hasn't changed much. Also, don't put Jordan and Lebron in same sentence. In this league today, Shaq would win a title every year he was healthy and had a top 5-7 supporting cast. He is that much betterthaneveryone.

This is just a casual fan amateur statement.

[TonyMontana]

That's a pretty uncomplicated way of looking at it.

Miami played to make Hibbert (a generally average offensive player) beat them.
He got 20/10 with the Heat basically allowing it, not just in that series, but as a roster as a whole, by design for overall success.
I'm not talking about just Miami with my posts.
If Shaq played for a different team right now, Miami would have a different roster possibly, or possibly would have employed different schemes than what they employed against Indiana.
But Shaq, Hakeem and D-Rob don't play.. It's a different league now. Which is my overall point.

You think Miami chooses not to have a dominant bigman?

They don't grow on tress. Miami was built for the Summer of 2010. When you have a chance to pair up 25 year old LeBron, 26 year old Bosh, and 29 year old Wade, you DO IT and worry later about how they fit together.

Since Miami has so much invested in these three guys, they have no cap room to actually get a bigman that isn't complete shit. And no teams are going to trade these bigs unless their contract is TERRIBLE and their old/done.

The only bigmen you can get for the minumum is guys like Juwan Howard who can't play. There is always a demand for bigmen. Oden is prolly the most injury prone guy ever, but you better ****ing believe Miami and other teams will express MAJOR interest in him if they can get him for cheap. Brandon Roy on the otherhand, noone will want that shit.

They got lucky with Birdman since hes been out of the NBA for a while and hes a guy in his mid 30 with child porn accusations on top of drug history. If Birdman wanted to test the market as a FA he could get a pretty penny from teams.

You can get veteran shooters for the minimum since shooting is a skill and old er guys can still do it. Old bigmen are generally useless.

[Kblaze8855]

was waiting for you to dispute that he threw elbow in mutombo's face in finals to NO whistle


but how can anybody dispute that?

Why would anyone try is the question?

It means literally...nothing.

[secund2nun]

Big men are much better than non big man. The only 4 non big men that can match up with the best big men are Lebron Bird Magic and MJ. Any one who would take Kobe over KG, Duncan, Barkley, Robinson etc is so brainwashed. The reason big men are so underrated and non big men are so overrated is because the media creates BS hype to try to find the next MJ.

Prime Shaq, imo, is the best bball player ever and this is coming from a huge Lebron fan.

[IGOTGAME]

This is just a casual fan amateur statement.
Good for you. Not worth my free time. Good night.

[Orlando Magic]

28-30 ppg.

So would Shaq.

I would take Jordan or Lebron over Shaq in todays league.

Which is all I have tried to say.

The league has changed so much over 50 years, you cannot compare the players.

Yeah but you're saying perimeter players have gotten better. They haven't. They've gotten significantly worse. It's just not entirely obvious because of the lack of bigs and the rule changes in their favor.

[Orlando Magic]

Big men are much better than non big man. The only 4 non big men that can match up with the best big men are Lebron Bird Magic and MJ. Any one who would take Kobe over KG, Duncan, Barkley, Robinson etc is so brainwashed. The reason big men are so underrated and non big men are so overrated is because the media creates BS hype to try to find the next MJ.

Prime Shaq, imo, is the best bball player ever and this is coming from a huge Lebron fan.

Agreed 100% across the board.

[Kblaze8855]

On the other subject....a quick(and I mean very quick) glance shows me 78 players from the 3peat laker years who are still in the NBA. And I didnt go far back. Im already think of guys I missed(2 of them on the Heat).

So no less than 22%(its more than that....) of the league NOW are the same players from Shaqs prime....only 10 years older so inarguably less athletic.

But the league as a whole...got much more athletic. Even if a quarter of it are holdovers from a much less athletic era...who are now all in their 30s.

If I did it all the way I bet there are 100 out of 360 active players left from those days. If not more. And I didnt even count guys like Sheed and Kidd who played this year.

That "League got more athletic" shit has to end. Or at least when...its 25% the same players only older.

What...is EVERY player to enter the league to fill out the 100 non old guys Lebron James level?

[Orlando Magic]

On the other subject....a quick(and I mean very quick) glance shows me 78 players from the 3peat laker years who are still in the NBA. And I didnt go far back. Im already think of guys I missed(2 of them on the Heat).

So no less than 22%(its more than that....) of the league NOW are the same players from Shaqs prime....only 10 years older so inarguably less athletic.

But the league as a whole...got much more athletic. Even if a quarter of it are holdovers from a much less athletic era...who are now all in their 30s.

If I did it all the way I bet there are 100 out of 360 active players left from those days. If not more. And I didnt even count guys like Sheed and Kidd who played this year.

That "League got more athletic" shit has to end. Or at least when...its 25% the same players only older.

What...is EVERY player to enter the league to fill out the 100 non old guys Lebron James level?

Well... I think the younger guys coming in are undeniably more athletic than they used to be... But worse basketball players. The league, media, teams and fans have all become obsessed with athleticism over skill. You can thank Jordan for that. Difference with him was he had the skill to go with it but most people don't understand that our they just don't care.

Potential... In fact I'd go as far as to say that potential is considered more valuable in today's society than results... lol. Not just with sports. Can't say I fully understand where that comes from.

[La Frescobaldi]

Well... I think the younger guys coming in are undeniably more athletic than they used to be... But worse basketball players. The league, media, teams and fans have all become obsessed with athleticism over skill. You can thank Jordan for that. Difference with him was he had the skill to go with it but most people don't understand that our they just don't care.

Potential... In fact I'd go as far as to say that potential is considered more valuable in today's society than results... lol. Not just with sports. Can't say I fully understand where that comes from.

Aside from KBlaze point that at least 1/3 of the NBA is from Shaq' glory years 2000-2002 and therefore older than dirt......... these guys aren't more athletic. They are more trained.

In 40 years, I have never seen anyone get from the corner to the rim faster than Jerry West.
There's been guys with a quicker jab step, guys with quicker spins, guys with crossovers which were illegal back then. But nobody quicker from perimeter to hoop.

Not even Nate Archibald.

[DCL]

shaq was the most disgusting player ever.

like watching x-rated hard core prison style child molestation.

[eliteballer]

Hakeem 1995 playoff run:

NO homecourt

These are the records of the teams he went through: 60-22, 59-23, 62-20, 57-25

Stats: 33 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.8 blk, 1.2 stl, 53 FG%

[memetherapy]

This whole "players have become more athletic" is kind of bullshit, but there's some truth to it. The truth is the guards have gotten slowly taller and the bigs have slowly gotten a little smaller, thus concentrating more people in that 6'4" to 6'9" athletic seeming range. A 6'4'' guard dunking seems more athletic than a 6' guard doing a layup, while most 6'9" guys are more athletic than 7 footers. The so-called 5 positions are not as well defined in today's NBA. The best strategies change...there's a slow on-going arms race that no one is really aware but naturally occurs. Would love it if someone analyzed these long term patterns more thoroughly.

Personally...Shaq's gotta be in the top 10 ahead of Kobe and Hakeem... in his prime, he was most dominant player I've ever seen. My sample size ain't the greatest...started really watching in 96... but I assume he was more dominant than anyone since Wilt. Am I mistaken?

[KyleKong]

Great post.

Shaq is easily top 5 GOAT and the most physically dominating player ever.

[fpliii]

Agree 100% with the premise of the OP. Bigs by nature can impact the game more than non-bigs. Offense, defense, rebounding are the three phases of the game, and the latter two are a lot easier for a PF/C. Of Kblaze's list:

Shaq
Moses
David robinson
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Ewing
Dirk
Duncan
Walton
Russell
Karl
Artis Gilmore
KG
Webber
Kareem

I'd definitely draft the bolded before anyone else. Moses is tough, because he wasn't noted for his defense. Barkley, probably not. Same with Malone, but it's a PnR league now. Dirk and Webber would be in the mix, with such unique size/skillsets.

[jongib369]

.....are we just all full of shit on the issue of who the best players are?

And I dont mean that to say Shaq is the GOAT(though....).

Im asking about bigmen in general.

First let me show you the bloodbath I was watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0

And its not like that was the least bit unusual for him. He did go out and have 60/20 just because it was his birthday. Most of the time he was just kinda playing in the flow.


Now and then I read all time rankings with a Kobe or Lebron type up top 7-8.

And I have to ask myself....

If I throw them into this mix and pick someone to actually build a team around:

Shaq
Moses
David robinson
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Ewing
Dirk
Duncan
Walton
Russell
Karl
Artis Gilmore
KG
Webber
Kareem


There are 11 people there id have to at least consider taking over either of them.


Shaq in his prime was straight up LLcoolJfromIntoodeeping ( http://youtu.be/7UGYADwPc0E?t=1m28s ) these dudes. Just ****ing em with the pool stick screaming "Love it!".

Hakeem could realistically drop 40, prevent 6-7 offensive rebounds by winning a battle for the ball, reject or alter 11 otherwise easy shots, get 2-3 steals, prevent 12 drives from happening in the first place, and find 5 guys for wide open 3s in a night.

He could have a role to play in the scoring or prevention of 60-70 points and not even seem to have anything like a career game. Dude did average 33/10/5 with 3 blocks a game on a title run. He had so many games with 5 blocks and 3-4 steals that it wasnt the least bit noteworthy. He was putting up 24/14/ 5 blocks and 2 steals a game one season.

Moses Malones and drobs game logs read like a video game played on rookie.

These are the only NON 40 point games Kareem had one playoff run:


27/16/7
28/14/7/4
36/26
30/10/5
21/20/8/7
30/17/4


Those are his only non 40 point games those playoffs. And he had 17, 18, 18, and 19 rebounds in the 40+ point games. 9 blocks in one of them.




It may not be "fair" to guards but bigmen do have a natural advantage. They play right by the basket so they anchor defenses and get easier shots.

As good a defender as a Bruce bowen could be he cant literally prevent the basket from getting attacked.

Shaq....

In 20 years...I saw him dunked on maybe twice. Only once in a physical straight up attacking you on the drive kinda way. Coleman. In his rookie season. And next time Shaq played the Nets:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/TvE6KPuwt7s/hqdefault.jpg

He literally tore the backboard down.

A couple guys dunked...by him. Patterson dunked on him on a putback.

But guards were not just running into the lane to climb Mt.shaq and prove a point like on every other bigman.

Thats an intimidation you cant put a price on.


Your Shaq...Hakeems...Kareems and Wilts. Even some a notch down like pre injury Ewing...Drob.

These people can have such an impact on the floor im not sure most of them arent being unfairly overlooked in the issue of best players....just because its sexier to some to be great...and small.

Ive heard it said here that I had a bigman bias once when I think I said id take some star center over Kobe.

I dont see it that way.

I see it as....being real about what I can expect from a great bigman. And how even a lower tier great can do more for my team than a guard often ranked higher all time.

I dont have much trouble seeing David robinson winning 55-60 games on the Cavs or winning a ring with the Heat(maybe not this years....11? Sure he could...still had the real Wade).

I dont find it unlikely that Hakeem or even Duncan when teamed with Scottie Pippen could form a dynasty that won just as much.


Doesnt make all of them equals.

But it has to mean....something.

If may not be "fair". But the bigman advantage is reality.

Guards can do numbers. We are all aware of them.

But two roughly equal players...the bigman can generally do more to make a team win I believe.

Doesnt mean its shown on every team. Coaching plays a factor. Talent. All that.

But generally speaking the bigman advantage is enough to make up for the guard being higher ranked all time to me.

Lebron is the best player right now. Easily.

But that doesnt mean it would be an easy choice to take him over a number of centers who will never get a top 10 ranking. Especially to play this scum at the 5 now.

You could justify taking like.....6-7 bigmen over virtually everyone ever if you throw out the legacy.

In an all time NBA draft....I suspect a lot more bigmen would go high than moderns fans would guess. Other than MJ going top 3 im not sure how it plays out.

But I dont think it would look very much like an all time greatest player list.

I suspect some of that "Always take the bigman" would happen and we might watch the likes of Drob, Moses, And Ewing shoot past a number of guys we rank over them now.
I was thinking about making a thread similar to this about a week ago, completely agree. And to say otherwise is crazy IMO. It's simple.

A bigmans offensive game is usually based around the hoop which is the most efficient way to score. Efficient scoring wins games and Championships. I'll take a dominant center like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem over amazing scorers like Jordan, Kobe, West, Bird etc any day.

While other positions grab a decent amount of rebounds its the big men who normally grab the most of them...Second chances and denying second chances while capitalizing on that mistake wins games and championships..While "Smaller" guys like Oscar, LeBron, Baylor, Kidd grab a decent amount its obviously not the same

They defend the most important area of the court etc etc etc. I can go on for ever.

[OldSkoolball#52]

First of all Ive BEEN sayin this stuff since I got here. Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Olajuwon, are no brainers over Kobe and its not CLOSE. Not even remotely close if youre starting a team and trying to win.

Ive tried to tell people Robinson, McHale, Barkley and Dirk are better than Kobe all time, but you see idiots dont know how to actually talk about basketball. Most of them probably tried to read your post and all their eyes saw was XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. All they can comprehend is idealized storylines about flashy jump shooting heros who scowl and stay after the game to keep shooting. Instead of words like footwork, shot contesting, efficiency, decision making, points in the paint, rotating... the majority of this board uses words like killer instinct, assassin, rings, "will to win" "put them on his back" "closer" "hates to lose" and a bunch of things that describe nothing about someones game.


I been tryin to tell folks lately that based on these playoffs, Marc Gasol, Noah, and Hibbert are definitely more valuable than a 45% brainless chucker like Melo, but the dummies cant see it. Of course not. Melo shoots hero shots, and these guys only watch for the heros. Dividing credit is boring. Just give it all to the guy who shoots most.



However, its not fair to lump kobe and lebron together in this discussion. Lebrons all around dominant impact separates him very definitively from Kobe, and he actually does belong in any discussion of top 10. You still dont take Lebron over prime Shaq (prime shaq is GOAT prime IMO, only reason for not being definite overall GOAT is if you put more emphasis on entire career arc than prime) but you def take Lebron over guys like Ewing.


But Ive been tryin to tell ppl here there are probably 15 bigs at least that have more impact than Kobe on a game by game basis, and a number of pgs as well. But theyre stans, hes their hero, they dont wanna be rational. It is what it is.

[jongib369]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3463e5f77d0b927289a29891573e1f14/tumblr_movjz6iviF1sx8chvo1_500.jpg

I would even consider taking that man over Jordan....And I'm talking about the one on the left....Only if you could magically guarantee he will be healthy though

[memetherapy]

Here's a tough question I can't answer myself.

If you could draft one player and your choices were Duncan, Shaq or Lebron, knowing you'd keep him til he retires, who would you pick?

[jongib369]

Here's a tough question I can't answer myself.

If you could draft one player and your choices were Duncan, Shaq or Lebron, knowing you'd keep him til he retires, who would you pick?
IMO Duncan if you want someone for the long haul.

Duncan>Shaq>LeBron

[DTD]

Ive tried to tell people Robinson, McHale, Barkley and Dirk are better than Kobe all time

This shit is hilarious.

[OldSkoolball#52]

While I may agree with some of what you said...

I seem to remember you being 6'7''. Were you an unappreciated bigman in Hs athletics?

I was part of an unappreciated defense in HS football which is why I feel nearly every QB ever is overrated.


You dont have to be a snubbed ex football player to know QBs are overrated.


Most people simply dont have the patience or capacity to understand team sports. So fans collectively pick one representative player to credit or blame based on wins and losses. Adrian Peterson is the best player in football. Nobody will judge his legacy based on the Vikings winning or losing. Because theyre not trained to do that. Theyre trained to drone "how many rings does the quarterback have, how many rings does the quarterback have"... Wht a mindless herd..

[K]

Awesome thread. Big men rule. Guards are overrated because of their flashiness. I'd take Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kareem before even considering any guard or small forward.

[Screamingdoom]

I take prime, motivated and 'championship hungry' Shaq over anyone in NBA history including Jordan.

[SilkkTheShocker]

IMO Duncan if you want someone for the long haul.

Duncan>Shaq>LeBron

Shaq over LeBron? :oldlol:

[iamgine]

Young idiots of today think athletes from 10+ years ago are slow and unathletic. Today the ring is still 10 feet from the ground and players from 50 years ago could dunk the ball at the same ring height... :facepalm

"Bigger stronger faster" argument is stupid and ignorant. No explanation needed. :facepalm

If athletes today are so much bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes from a few decades ago, then the ancient times must have had ant-size people for the olympics. :rolleyes:
That's kinda true though, in a way. Athletes doesn't get better, there's just as the sport gets bigger/more popular/more money involved, there more athletes taking part, raising the sport's overall athlete level. For example, slavery and racism was still quite rampant in the 50s, the number of African American who participated were not as many as it should.

Why does USA suck in soccer/badminton? That's because the athletes that USA have who play these sports are not optimal due to the unpopularity of these sport. So if badminton become popular in the 2050s and USA eventually becomes a powerhouse, people could say that 2010s US badminton athletes were slow and unathletic.

[plowking]

I'm watching that video of Shaq against Philly and all I can think about is how just about every single one of his backdowns would be called an offensive foul today. Look at around 8:20 in particular of the video. He's just absolutely killing Dikembe. Players today would just flop at the first sign of contact.

It frustrates me when I see a huge mismatch today in the post, and you see the smaller defender flop the first chance he gets to draw an offensive foul. The worst thing is, they call it most of the time. They need to let that shit go, and let the guy hammer it in for a dunk every time.

[jongib369]

Shaq over LeBron? :oldlol:
Easily IMO but I'm open to being wrong. Can put up about the same amount of points but more efficiently. More rebounds, defends a more important area. LeBrons a GREAT passed but so was Shaq....I don't see many people mention how deadly a great passing big man is. Bill Walton was one bad mother ****er

http://oi43.tinypic.com/rkxah0.jpg

It all depends on the type of team you want to build...I just happen to think big men are naturally going to be more valuable to team building than a guard.

[OldSkoolball#52]

For example, slavery... was still quite rampant in the 50s, the number of African American who participated were not as many as it should.
.



I, literally, LOL'd

[ThaRegul8r]

It all depends on the type of team you want to build.

:applause:

Finally someone other than me says this.

[Psycho]

For example, slavery and racism was still quite rampant in the 50s


:eek: I hope not. You from America bro?

[Legends66NBA7]

:applause:

Finally someone other than me says this.

Exactly.

Any style can work, depending on how you build it. Doesn't matter if your a big man or a perimeter player.

[jongib369]

:applause:

Finally someone other than me says this.

:cheers:

It's true. Even though I think bigmen are the most important players I'm not about to give someone shit for picking a guy like Magic Johnson over the bigs I mentioned.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Easily IMO but I'm open to being wrong. Can put up about the same amount of points but more efficiently. More rebounds, defends a more important area. LeBrons a GREAT passed but so was Shaq....I don't see many people mention how deadly a great passing big man is. Bill Walton was one bad mother ****er

http://oi43.tinypic.com/rkxah0.jpg

It all depends on the type of team you want to build...I just happen to think big men are naturally going to be more valuable to team building than a guard.

Would rep if I could for the Walton pic alone. But I can respect your answer.

[Young X]

There's no evidence that suggests dominant big men are better than dominant perimeter players.

The most dominant player statistically in the regular season and playoffs is a 6'6 guard.

[iamgine]

:eek: I hope not. You from America bro?
:lol I literally :oldlol: too. That part was wrong.

but the point stands.

[Legends66NBA7]

The most dominant player statistically in the regular season and playoffs is a 6'6 guard.

Jordan is probably the exception of the norm of majority thinking for this case.

I disagree with regular season, though. It's probably Wilt Chamberlain for regular season. He lead the league in scoring, rebounding, minutes per game, field goals made, etc.. many times. Even was in the tops for assists too. If blocks and steals were recorded during his playing days, he probably leads in the blocks per game a lot too and in the tops for steals too.

[secund2nun]

First of all Ive BEEN sayin this stuff since I got here. Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, Olajuwon, are no brainers over Kobe and its not CLOSE. Not even remotely close if youre starting a team and trying to win.

Ive tried to tell people Robinson, McHale, Barkley and Dirk are better than Kobe all time, but you see idiots dont know how to actually talk about basketball. Most of them probably tried to read your post and all their eyes saw was XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. All they can comprehend is idealized storylines about flashy jump shooting heros who scowl and stay after the game to keep shooting. Instead of words like footwork, shot contesting, efficiency, decision making, points in the paint, rotating... the majority of this board uses words like killer instinct, assassin, rings, "will to win" "put them on his back" "closer" "hates to lose" and a bunch of things that describe nothing about someones game.


I been tryin to tell folks lately that based on these playoffs, Marc Gasol, Noah, and Hibbert are definitely more valuable than a 45% brainless chucker like Melo, but the dummies cant see it. Of course not. Melo shoots hero shots, and these guys only watch for the heros. Dividing credit is boring. Just give it all to the guy who shoots most.



However, its not fair to lump kobe and lebron together in this discussion. Lebrons all around dominant impact separates him very definitively from Kobe, and he actually does belong in any discussion of top 10. You still dont take Lebron over prime Shaq (prime shaq is GOAT prime IMO, only reason for not being definite overall GOAT is if you put more emphasis on entire career arc than prime) but you def take Lebron over guys like Ewing.


But Ive been tryin to tell ppl here there are probably 15 bigs at least that have more impact than Kobe on a game by game basis, and a number of pgs as well. But theyre stans, hes their hero, they dont wanna be rational. It is what it is.

This is the best post in ISH history. Every word you said is true, no matter how brainwashed people are. I laugh whenever I see people with a straight face rank Kobe ahead of far superior players like Duncan, KG, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Dirk etc.

Big men rule the NBA, which is why prime Kobe could not even win a playoff series in the 3 seasons he got without an elite front court.

[andgar923]

It's like he's playing against high school sophomore.

Nasty!!!!

Shaq easily the most dominant player of the modern era.

[Breezy]

.....are we just all full of shit on the issue of who the best players are?


I somewhat agree. I think the Rings argument that is near universally accepted is complete nonsense. If this were any kind of field of science that theory would be laughed at and thrown out immediately. Team sports fans seem loath to understand the difference between correlation and causation.

Another part of the problem is that people don't have their definitions down. You often hear "Greatness" and "Best" used interchangeably. 'Dominance' also seems to have variable definitions by different people. I notice people will cite players resume's as proof that a certain player was "best" when I think accolades reflect "Greatness" not necessarily who is the best.

I'm Stealing this example from Bill Simmons book but take John Stockton and Kevin Johnson. I don't know anyone who would would say that Johnson was the better player but if you actually go back and look at those games, or if you remember those days you would know That Kevin Johnson was clearly the better player in his prime. But when people rank players they give recognition to players who had high level lasting careers. Even though many of those players would be clearly inferior to some of their contemporaries.

Something I've been pointing out recently is the Idea that Duncan was about to win his 5th Ring and become better than Kobe. Which is pure lunacy if you apply any logic to that thought. Kawai Leonard misses one free throw in the 4th quarter of game 6 and now Tim Duncan is not as good of a Basketball player as Kobe Bryant. Clearly you see with that example how ridiculous some of these arguments get. Weather or not Duncan was better than Kobe was already Decided long before The finals.

There are plenty of examples of players who are not highly ranked who would be almost universally considered superior to several all time greats if you were just going by the criteria that you had to pick a player and your life depended on the outcome of the game. I'm thinking of names like Mcgrady, Walton, Hardaway. Walton from everything I've gathered was a god amongst men on the court before he started having foot issues.

I don't feel comfortable saying for sure that the big men are always the best because there are certain non bigs who It seems clear affect the game to about as high a degree as bigs. Jordan, Paul, Lebron, Thomas. But I will say that most people "best" players list would actually qualify as the best players if you were picking a 5 on 5 game for all the marbles.

[secund2nun]

There's no evidence that suggests dominant big men are better than dominant perimeter players.

The most dominant player statistically in the regular season and playoffs is a 6'6 guard.

LOL check the GOAT list. Almost all of the players are big men. Even players like Bird, Lebron, and Magic (the few non big men in that list) were all 6'8-6'9, dominated the boards, and scored with the efficiency of a big man.

[Legends66NBA7]

I laugh whenever I see people with a straight face rank Kobe ahead of far superior players like Duncan, KG, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Dirk .

Which Malone ?

[Young X]

Jordan is probably the exception of the norm of majority thinking forr this case.

I disagree with regular season, though. It's probably Wilt Chamberlain for regular season. He lead the league in scoring, rebounding, minutes per game, field goals made, etc.. many times. Even was in the tops for assists too. If blocks and steals were recorded during his playing days, he probably leads in the blocks per game a lot too and in the tops for steals too.
It's closer in the regular season, but in the playoffs no big man was more productive than Jordan was.

The whole "big men are better than perimeter players" arguement is subjective and not backed up by anything.

LOL check the GOAT list. Almost all of the players are big men. Even players like Bird, Lebron, and Magic (the few non big men in that list) were all 6'8-6'9, dominated the boards, and scored with the efficiency of a big man.
All this means is there were more dominant bigs than dominant perimeter players, it doesn't prove bigs are better than perimeter players.

[andgar923]

This is the best post in ISH history. Every word you said is true, no matter how brainwashed people are. I laugh whenever I see people with a straight face rank Kobe ahead of far superior players like Duncan, KG, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Dirk etc.

Big men rule the NBA, which is why prime Kobe could not even win a playoff series in the 3 seasons he got without an elite front court.

This

[TonyMontana]

Lots of great posts in this thread. It's not a coincidence there is a huge lack of Kobe stans in here.

If you were to rank the top 25 most valuable players in basketball history the only player on that list who would be under 6'8 would be Jordan because he is the best scorer ever and did it on great efficiency. It takes a career scoring average of 30.1 PPG on 50% shooting to even be considered making a similar impact as these dominant 7 footers that protect the rim, rebound, AND score. All at an EXTREMELY high level.

If you have an all-time great 7 footer you are winning the inside battle at the rim. Get easy points, prevent easy points. That is the formula for success.

Little guys just can't effect the game like bigs.

Edit: Forgot Barkley, he would be top 25 too. To be fair though he played way bigger than his size.

[cotdt]

Shaq has averaged like 42 ppg 17 rpg for an entire series. What guard is more dominant than that?

[Legends66NBA7]

It's closer in the regular season, but in the playoffs no big man was more productive than Jordan was.

Hakeem Olajuwon and Bill Russell come to mind for the playoffs. Olajuwon, every stat goes up; Russell incredibly clutch and best overall defense.

[Legends66NBA7]

Shaq has averaged like 42 ppg 17 rpg for an entire series. What guard is more dominant than that?

Which series was this ?

I don't recall it...

[plowking]

Its the same as when you're a kid playing basketball. When that big kid comes along who actually knows a little about how to play, he'll be better than everyone on the court, even your average sized baller.

It doesn't stop when you get to the pros either.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Shaq was so dominant back then, it was all about him for the Lakers three-peat. Shaq's one man show is one of the most overwhelming performance for the opposing teams.
:bowdown:

[cotdt]

Which series was this ?

I don't recall it...

2000 Finals: 38ppg, 16.7rpg .611fg%

What wing player can match this? What are Lebron's Finals stats?

[Legends66NBA7]

2000 Finals: 38ppg, 16.7rpg .611fg%

Yeah, he never averaged over 40+ppg in a series. That's what I wanted to know, since no big man ever did that in a 7 game playoff series. Maybe Wilt did, but in a shorter series. I know Jerry West, Rick Barry, and Michael Jordan have done it... and Jordan did like 5 timezones.

Don't really care which guard can match that nor do I care about James's Finals stats... that wasn't my question.

[cotdt]

Yeah, he never averaged over 40+ppg in a series. That's what I wanted to know, since no big man ever did that in a 7 game playoff series. Maybe Wilt did, but in a shorter series. I know Jerry West, Rick Barry, and Michael Jordan have done it... and Jordan did like 5 timezones.


In terms of impact, none of those examples are even comparable because of Shaq's defense and rebounding, and an offense that put tremendous pressure of the opposing team's defense. It was just pure dominance.

[Doranku]

Another thing about big men that often gets overlooked is the amount of energy it takes to guard them.

I can't even imagine what it must have been like to bang down low with a guy like Shaq every time down the court.

It takes a LOT more energy to constantly bang down low with a massive guy like Shaq than it does to chase someone like Tony Parker around a bunch of screens.

Not only did Shaq dominate offensively, rebound like a madman, and protect the rim, but I'm sure he also played a big part in wearing down opposing bigs. That's not something you see in the stat sheet but it is definitely a big asset imo.

[Legends66NBA7]

In terms of impact, none of those examples are even comparable because of Shaq's defense and rebounding, and an offense that put tremendous pressure of the opposing team's defense. It was just pure dominance.

I get all that.

Bleedinpurpletwo put up 42/17. I know O'Neal never put up 40+.

[Pointguard]

I think during certain times the game is just played differently. While Shaq was the most dominant player I seen I can't say he would be the best all the time. And at times I think the refs heavily favored him and could have taken away his strongest suite. Even Shaq says Kobe has the potential to be the best ever. He believed there was a limitations to his own play.

The game went thru an evolution. Bird and Magic turned the game into a skilled thinkers man game and never got enough credit for it. Kareem would be thought of very differently if it wasn't for Magic. And just like any other sport the skilled smart team guys have more control. The Sugar Rays, Ali, Mayweather, Gretsky's, Great pitchers, Quarterbacks and running backs the bigs predominate but the best are skilled smart or intuitive guys. Shaq is a brute. Powerful, overwhelming and unstoppable. He always looked more awesome than his impact ever was.

When the game moves faster, the bigs have more pressure and more vulnerabilities. It's not the same anymore. If Lebron was better skilled and not subject to pressure mind fogs - both things he can work on - I'd take him over Shaq without question. At times the Heat played ball at a level a Shaq team could ever achieve. At times Magic's team were better ran than any team I ever seen. Bird's team were great to watch as well.

Basketball, like other team sports, has this talent vs the integrated team (Miami plays integrated ball because their talented players all play a heady game first). But at some point its going to leave the individual talent thing and just might have left the center as being the center of building. I believe a skilled smart team player means more to a team with talent than a dominant center.

[MaxFly]

You know... I love the inconsistency that we see on these forums. It's as if people forget what they've argued in the past. It's entertaining.

This thread is about the overall awesomeness of big men as seen through the lens of Shaq's dominance of the 76ers. Are we forgetting that every so often, posters comment on how the 3peat Lakers really only deserved one ring as a result of the 2000 WCF and 2002 WCF being "fixed?"

We love to talk about game 6 of the 2002 WCF, but we don't like to talk about the peculiarities of game 5, where the supposed MDE took 1 free throw for the entire game though attempting 18 shots in a close loss. Which is it? Was he very stoppable in his prime with the series being fixed in the Lakers favor, or was he the MDE who was a part of a series with very inconsistent reffing, especially in games 5 and 6?

And let's not even talk about game 7 of the 2000 WCF. It's amazing that these discussions don't pop up when those threads and comments are made.

[TonyMontana]

You know... I love the inconsistency that we see on these forums. It's as if people forget what they've argued in the past. It's entertaining.

This thread is about the overall awesomeness of big men as seen through the lens of Shaq's dominance of the 76ers. Are we forgetting that every so often, posters comment on how the 3peat Lakers really only deserved one ring as a result of the 2000 WCF and 2002 WCF being "fixed?"

We love to talk about game 6 of the 2002 WCF, but we don't like to talk about the peculiarities of game 5, where the supposed MDE took 1 free throw for the entire game though attempting 18 shots in a close loss. Which is it? Was he very stoppable in his prime with the series being fixed in the Lakers favor, or was he the MDE who was a part of a series with very inconsistent reffing, especially in games 5 and 6?

And let's not even talk about game 7 of the 2000 WCF. It's amazing that these discussions don't pop up when those threads and comments are made.

If there was ever a team that could stop Shaq it would have to be the 00 Blazers...

They had Sabonis, Sheed as their main bigmen.

Brian Grant was their first big off the bench and he played reserve minutes. He was 27 years old at the time and went on to average 15-9 in Miami when he was given starters minutes the very next year. They also had Jermaine O'Neal who couldn't even get on the court. He would average 13-10 the very next year with IND in starters minutes. That teams depth was incredible, its no wonder they couldnt keep it all together.

Shaqs 25.9 PPG and 12.4 RPG on 54% shooting was still good enough for best player in the league status despite playing a VERY talented frontcourt.

Any needledick can go through gamelogs and pick out a bad statistical game for ANY player.

[AintNoSunshine]

Unless we are talking about the elite of the elite big men, Shaq is definitely one of them, you are foolish to take Dirk or Webber or even Malone over Lebron. I would only consider some of the big men you listed because their huge impact on defense.

[secund2nun]

Which Malone ?

Both Malones were better than Kobe.

[secund2nun]

All this means is there were more dominant bigs than dominant perimeter players, it doesn't prove bigs are better than perimeter players.

The fact that almost all of the best players in NBA history are bigs does prove that. Even now, most of the best players are big men and many non big men like Rose, Kobe, Melo, Parker get vastly overrated while big men like Noah, KG, Duncan get vastly underrated.

[secund2nun]

Shaq has averaged like 42 ppg 17 rpg for an entire series. What guard is more dominant than that?

None....Shaq GOAT :bowdown:

[G-train]

History isn't now.

[L8kersfan222]

Kblaze you got until tomorrow to delete this thread or you get exposed.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/TheOnlyNoob/cca47064-8644-4d24-b4cd-8e8e88449fd8.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0
In that clip I saw a LOT of offensive fouls. I'm talking brutal chicken wings to the chest and ribs from a 350 lb man to Dikembe Mutombo. That isn't skill. That's brute force, and bullying. Shaq got away with SO MUCH on the offensive end. Some nice quick a foot moves though at times and touch for a guy his size.

[coin24]

Agreed. What would LeBron do without Wade's 15ppg and Bosh's 12ppg this postseason?






:oldlol:


Dunno, but without ray Allen he'd be the laughing stock of the league:lol

[Teanett]

You would not take 11 people over LeBron to start a franchise with.


If I draft a guy...as great as he was.....do I draft the guy whos a 10 and have him for 5-6 years (Shaq)and then almost certainly he's going to leave? Or take the guy who's a 9.5 who's with me for 15+ years?

:biggums:
the decision...
kobe forced his trade on draft day...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Of the players I've seen, the order I'd draft:

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
David Robinson
KG
Duncan
Barkley
Wade
K. Malone
Dirk

[BoutPractice]

Big men are definitely underrated.
Still, ranking transcendent guards and forwards over "merely" really good bigs can be justified in that they're rarer and in a sense, their achievements are more impressive.

[K Xerxes]

If I was to pick a player to start my franchise with, I'd take Olajuwon or Russell.

These players are so easy to build around. They provide arguably the best interior defensive presence, to first of all cover for any defensive lapses the guards may have, and to simply alter shots. You can load the team offensively then, which is a lot easier.

[get these NETS]

Why would anyone try is the question?

It means literally...nothing.



shaq elbowed and lowered his shoulder into defenders enroute to 3 rings

fact that you can't even dispute the play I'm talking about shows me that this thread is bogus as Shaq did this the entire playoffs that year and refs, per nba instructions, allowed him to violate the RULE BOOK


there's a famous clip of Bobby Jackson(Kings) driving to the hoop...Shaq smacking BJ's hands....and BJ having to leave the game with broken/fractured wrist....

and guess what ...shaq hit him hard enough to injure him,but REFS didn't call a foul on the play

[get these NETS]

Somebody please hook me up with the video

kings lakers dec 25 2002

here is SI article about BJ's injury

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/02/14/jackson_active_ap/


Playing mostly as a starter while point guard Mike Bibby was injured, Jackson was receiving serious consideration for his first All-Star berth. But when Shaquille O'Neal made a misguided swipe at the ball during the Kings' victory over the Los Angeles Lakers on Dec. 25, a bone in Jackson's hand was broken.

[Orlando Magic]

shaq elbowed and lowered his shoulder into defenders enroute to 3 rings

fact that you can't even dispute the play I'm talking about shows me that this thread is bogus as Shaq did this the entire playoffs that year and refs, per nba instructions, allowed him to violate the RULE BOOK


there's a famous clip of Bobby Jackson(Kings) driving to the hoop...Shaq smacking BJ's hands....and BJ having to leave the game with broken/fractured wrist....

and guess what ...shaq hit him hard enough to injure him,but REFS didn't call a foul on the play

Well what you're saying isn't totally false.

What you're omitting is that Shaq took as many uncalled fouls as he dished out if not more so. If he played straight up without fouling and the fouls were called against opponents the opposing team's front line would foul out in the first half of every game. The refs did what they could.

[kshutts1]

Coming late to the party, as usual, but for reasons such as: era, position, style, I choose to rank players in tiers, rather than an actual, in-order-ranking.

Tier 1:
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Lebron (IF he is the best player in the league for the next 3-7 years, and wins multiple more titles)

Tier 2:
Dream
Kobe (very, very, very slim chance of moving up)
Lebron (assuming he continues to be great for another 5 years, at least)
Duncan (see Kobe)
Oscar
KG (I am in the minority, but I consider KG to be on par with Duncan. Circumstance is the lone item separating these two)

Tier 3, and guys I have not seen enough of to rate properly (but know they're not in tier 1):
Moses
Karl
Pippen
Stockton
Thomas
Unseld
Pettit
Mikan
Barkley
Doctor

Obviously with more knowledge and time, tier 3 could be tightened up a bit. I don't have the knowledge, drive, motivation, or time to make this a full-on tier listing like Bill Simmons did/does.
One thing that I absolutely refuse to do: set up any constraints on the tiers. There will never be a "limit" on amount of players "allowed" in a tier. I won't make the numbers "even" (3, 5, 10, etc). The top 7 is, to borrow a term, the pantheon. As shown with Lebron, the pantheon can expand.

[kshutts1]

If I was to pick a player to start my franchise with, I'd take Olajuwon or Russell.

These players are so easy to build around. They provide arguably the best interior defensive presence, to first of all cover for any defensive lapses the guards may have, and to simply alter shots. You can load the team offensively then, which is a lot easier.
Future rep. Been saying this for years. Though I'd also toss Kareem in to the mix, though admittedly as my third choice. Not saying he's worse than the other two, but just not as easy to build around.

[All Net]

I remember him getting schooled by Hakeem too. But he was young then although he was more athletic back then too.

Let's get real, Mutombo was way over his head at that time + kinda injured if I recall. However, no way of stopping Shaq anyway you put it. Too big, too strong.

That was a lesson shaq really learnt from big time.

[kNicKz]

What people don't understand is, a guy like George Hill is an athletic freak of nature.
Guy's like him even 15 years ago were not as tall, long or athletic, weren't as informed/intelligent, weren't as equipped for success. He is just a solid role player.
The league OVERALL is more thorough, and more advanced in every facet. It is harder to play and harder to succeed.
That's why I take Lebron, because he has succeeded in the league when it's at highest point.

andddd you just went full retard

[DMAVS41]

Coming late to the party, as usual, but for reasons such as: era, position, style, I choose to rank players in tiers, rather than an actual, in-order-ranking.

Tier 1:
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Lebron (IF he is the best player in the league for the next 3-7 years, and wins multiple more titles)

Tier 2:
Dream
Kobe (very, very, very slim chance of moving up)
Lebron (assuming he continues to be great for another 5 years, at least)
Duncan (see Kobe)
Oscar
KG (I am in the minority, but I consider KG to be on par with Duncan. Circumstance is the lone item separating these two)

Tier 3, and guys I have not seen enough of to rate properly (but know they're not in tier 1):
Moses
Karl
Pippen
Stockton
Thomas
Unseld
Pettit
Mikan
Barkley
Doctor

Obviously with more knowledge and time, tier 3 could be tightened up a bit. I don't have the knowledge, drive, motivation, or time to make this a full-on tier listing like Bill Simmons did/does.
One thing that I absolutely refuse to do: set up any constraints on the tiers. There will never be a "limit" on amount of players "allowed" in a tier. I won't make the numbers "even" (3, 5, 10, etc). The top 7 is, to borrow a term, the pantheon. As shown with Lebron, the pantheon can expand.

You forgot guys like Hondo and Dirk...

[plowking]

That was a lesson shaq really learnt from big time.

Shaq did not get schooled by Hakeem at all. Anyone that thinks so needs to go back and rewatch the series.

If anything, Orlando got outcoached, and their role players didn't step up.

[juju151111]

In that clip I saw a LOT of offensive fouls. I'm talking brutal chicken wings to the chest and ribs from a 350 lb man to Dikembe Mutombo. That isn't skill. That's brute force, and bullying. Shaq got away with SO MUCH on the offensive end. Some nice quick a foot moves though at times and touch for a guy his size.
You missed all the fouls against Shaq through

[TEXAS BATMAN]

I've always said that when starting a franchise, you start with a big man. Which is why I never found fault with Portland taking oden over durant, or bowie over jordan. A good big man anchors so many facets of your game. The only exceptions I can think of are the michael jordan/lebron types who just wreak havoc on the defensive end with their fast recovery speed and insane hops. They play pretty much like free safeties flying to the ball.

It took shaq retiring for me to have a true appreciation for his game. He physically dominated the comp like nothing I've ever seen. Jordan was crafty on top of his natural gifts, and I've seen big bodied guys be able to sag off of neutralize james to many times to be convinced on him. But shaq just uprooted dudes. And unlike lebron he had a go to move. His hookshot was money anywhere from 5-8 ft. If you think those are gimmes, I still have yet to see tyson chandler develop one or howard be able to hit it with any consistency.

Sunday I was playing against this guy and it gave me a new respect for shaq. The dude was built like demarkus ware and had a first step I couldn't keep up with. I'm a nice sized guy but I was bouncing off him like he had a invisible force field. He was that strong. When hed spin into the lane I might as well not have been there. 2 players I'd start a franchise with. Hakeem, and mike. Not even 3 seconds to think. Shaq might be up there but he's a liability with his free throw shooting. You put them in any era, any matchup, against any player or team and they dominate. I love the wings but if your going top 5 players of all time 4 of those slots go to big men.

[Zodiac]

I'd take Prime Sabonis over Lebron as well.

[LeBird]

Shaq did not get schooled by Hakeem at all. Anyone that thinks so needs to go back and rewatch the series.

If anything, Orlando got outcoached, and their role players didn't step up.

Gotta wonder why this myth was created and even persists.

[IGOTGAME]

Coming late to the party, as usual, but for reasons such as: era, position, style, I choose to rank players in tiers, rather than an actual, in-order-ranking.

Tier 1:
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Lebron (IF he is the best player in the league for the next 3-7 years, and wins multiple more titles)

Tier 2:
Dream
Kobe (very, very, very slim chance of moving up)
Lebron (assuming he continues to be great for another 5 years, at least)
Duncan (see Kobe)
Oscar
KG (I am in the minority, but I consider KG to be on par with Duncan. Circumstance is the lone item separating these two)

Tier 3, and guys I have not seen enough of to rate properly (but know they're not in tier 1):
Moses
Karl
Pippen
Stockton
Thomas
Unseld
Pettit
Mikan
Barkley
Doctor

Obviously with more knowledge and time, tier 3 could be tightened up a bit. I don't have the knowledge, drive, motivation, or time to make this a full-on tier listing like Bill Simmons did/does.
One thing that I absolutely refuse to do: set up any constraints on the tiers. There will never be a "limit" on amount of players "allowed" in a tier. I won't make the numbers "even" (3, 5, 10, etc). The top 7 is, to borrow a term, the pantheon. As shown with Lebron, the pantheon can expand.

Your ranking of Stockton surprises me. Why would you rank him so high? You would really pick him to start a franchise over guys like DRob, Dirk, Wade, Mchale...I would actually put Stockton down a tier because he doesn't fit with some of the other players mentioned.

[MaxFly]

If there was ever a team that could stop Shaq it would have to be the 00 Blazers...

They had Sabonis, Sheed as their main bigmen.

Brian Grant was their first big off the bench and he played reserve minutes. He was 27 years old at the time and went on to average 15-9 in Miami when he was given starters minutes the very next year. They also had Jermaine O'Neal who couldn't even get on the court. He would average 13-10 the very next year with IND in starters minutes. That teams depth was incredible, its no wonder they couldnt keep it all together.

Shaqs 25.9 PPG and 12.4 RPG on 54% shooting was still good enough for best player in the league status despite playing a VERY talented frontcourt.

Any needledick can go through gamelogs and pick out a bad statistical game for ANY player.

You missed the entire point. People have said that Shaq was so dominant that no one could stop him... that he practically single-handedly won those three championships. However, those same posters will note that the 2000 and 2002 WCFs were rigged in favor of the Lakers. A player can't be all that unstoppable while single-handedly championships if they need their series to be rigged in order to win. As I mentioned, people harp on game 6 of the 2002 WCF, but why is it that no one says, "Shaq was so dominant that no one could stop him... why did he only get 1 free throw in game 5?" Looks like certain individuals have a habit of choosing the argument that will best fit their agenda at particular times.

Another example... "Any needledick can go through gamelogs and pick out a bad statistical game for ANY player." For some reason, no one bothers to note that in game 7 of the 2000 WCF, Bryant lead the Lakers in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks, while having fewer turnovers than Shaq. Shaq had an all around good series, but in the most important game of his career up to that point, he needed the guy that people have said was easily replaceable to come through in a game that people have said was rigged.

Where's the consistency?

[Legends66NBA7]

Both Malones were better than Kobe.

I could role with Moses even though he had his flaws, but Karl ?

Don't see it. If anybody is vastly overrated it's him. I'd take many elite guards over him, if I could build the most ideal roster around a guard over K.Malone.

[kshutts1]

You forgot guys like Hondo and Dirk...

I did forget Hondo, I did not forget Dirk. Edit: Dirk is in my third tier, but as I say below, list was not meant to be comprehensive.

But honestly, I didn't list all of the "third tier" players, and there may even be some "second tier" players that I missed. The list was not meant to be comprehensive, but rather an example.

[kshutts1]

Your ranking of Stockton surprises me. Why would you rank him so high? You would really pick him to start a franchise over guys like DRob, Dirk, Wade, Mchale...I would actually put Stockton down a tier because he doesn't fit with some of the other players mentioned.

That was not the exact point of my tiers. The point of those is really a ranking of greatness, which includes abilities, achievements, wins, etc.

But to answer the question, no, I would not pick Stockton over those guys to start a franchise.
And as I clarified in my last post, the list is not comprehensive. Just an example list.

[MaxFly]

Lots of great posts in this thread. It's not a coincidence there is a huge lack of Kobe stans in here.

If you were to rank the top 25 most valuable players in basketball history the only player on that list who would be under 6'8 would be Jordan because he is the best scorer ever and did it on great efficiency.

Oscar Robertson wasn't a top 25 player of all time? Jerry West? John Havicek? Dr. J?

Does someone else want to co-sign TonyMontana's opinion? We have people putting Karl Malone and Dirk on all-time lists over Kobe Bryant, and others saying that Oscar isn't a top 25 player of all time. Anyone else want to say something stupid?

[Maniak]

.....are we just all full of shit on the issue of who the best players are?


Yes.

[fpliii]

Oscar Robertson wasn't a top 25 player of all time? Jerry West? John Havicek? Dr. J?

Does someone else want to co-sign TonyMontana's opinion? We have people putting Karl Malone and Dirk on all-time lists over Kobe Bryant, and others saying that Oscar isn't a top 25 player of all time. Anyone else want to say something stupid?

I'm not sure if I agree 100% with what he's claiming, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that 12 of the first 15 or 20 of the first 25 off the board in an all-time draft would be bigs.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm not sure if I agree 100% with what he's claiming, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that 12 of the first 15 or 20 of the first 25 off the board in an all-time draft would be bigs.

He's not talking about an all-time draft, though. He's talking about all-time arbitrary ranking.

I think a player like Oscar Robertson gets overrated at times when he's placed in the Top 5-10, but I just don't see how he could be out of the Top 25. Ditto for someone like Jerry West, John Havlicek, etc.. Even if it was an all-time draft list, I see a player like Robertson get picked in the first or second round of a draft.

[fpliii]

He's not talking about an all-time draft, though. He's talking about all-time arbitrary ranking.

I think a player like Oscar Robertson gets overrated at times when he's placed in the Top 5-10, but I just don't see how he could be out of the Top 25. Ditto for someone like Jerry West, John Havlicek, etc.. Even if it was an all-time draft list, I see a player like Robertson get picked in the first or second round of a draft.

Ah, my mistake. I don't do GOAT lists anymore, but I understand what you're saying.

I haven't thought about this hard enough, so I don't know how it'd pan out. When I get home from work maybe I'll spend some time thinking about this, very interesting stuff. I don't want to make any definitive statements before then though.

[caliman]

Gotta wonder why this myth was created and even persists.


Mostly because Orlando got swept. Shaq more than held his own with 28/12/6 and 2 blocks on 60% shooting. Even Penny played well. What killed Orlando, and had nothing to do with Shaq, was that his sharp shooters, Scott and Anderson, shot a combined 17/60 from the 3 point line.

[BrickingStar]

.....are we just all full of shit on the issue of who the best players are?

And I dont mean that to say Shaq is the GOAT(though....).

Im asking about bigmen in general.

First let me show you the bloodbath I was watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0

And its not like that was the least bit unusual for him. He did go out and have 60/20 just because it was his birthday. Most of the time he was just kinda playing in the flow.


Now and then I read all time rankings with a Kobe or Lebron type up top 7-8.

And I have to ask myself....

If I throw them into this mix and pick someone to actually build a team around:

Shaq
Moses
David robinson
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Ewing
Dirk
Duncan
Walton
Russell
Karl
Artis Gilmore
KG
Webber
Kareem


There are 11 people there id have to at least consider taking over either of them.


Shaq in his prime was straight up LLcoolJfromIntoodeeping ( http://youtu.be/7UGYADwPc0E?t=1m28s ) these dudes. Just ****ing em with the pool stick screaming "Love it!".

Hakeem could realistically drop 40, prevent 6-7 offensive rebounds by winning a battle for the ball, reject or alter 11 otherwise easy shots, get 2-3 steals, prevent 12 drives from happening in the first place, and find 5 guys for wide open 3s in a night.

He could have a role to play in the scoring or prevention of 60-70 points and not even seem to have anything like a career game. Dude did average 33/10/5 with 3 blocks a game on a title run. He had so many games with 5 blocks and 3-4 steals that it wasnt the least bit noteworthy. He was putting up 24/14/ 5 blocks and 2 steals a game one season.

Moses Malones and drobs game logs read like a video game played on rookie.

These are the only NON 40 point games Kareem had one playoff run:


27/16/7
28/14/7/4
36/26
30/10/5
21/20/8/7
30/17/4


Those are his only non 40 point games those playoffs. And he had 17, 18, 18, and 19 rebounds in the 40+ point games. 9 blocks in one of them.




It may not be "fair" to guards but bigmen do have a natural advantage. They play right by the basket so they anchor defenses and get easier shots.

As good a defender as a Bruce bowen could be he cant literally prevent the basket from getting attacked.

Shaq....

In 20 years...I saw him dunked on maybe twice. Only once in a physical straight up attacking you on the drive kinda way. Coleman. In his rookie season. And next time Shaq played the Nets:

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/TvE6KPuwt7s/hqdefault.jpg

He literally tore the backboard down.

A couple guys dunked...by him. Patterson dunked on him on a putback.

But guards were not just running into the lane to climb Mt.shaq and prove a point like on every other bigman.

Thats an intimidation you cant put a price on.


Your Shaq...Hakeems...Kareems and Wilts. Even some a notch down like pre injury Ewing...Drob.

These people can have such an impact on the floor im not sure most of them arent being unfairly overlooked in the issue of best players....just because its sexier to some to be great...and small.

Ive heard it said here that I had a bigman bias once when I think I said id take some star center over Kobe.

I dont see it that way.

I see it as....being real about what I can expect from a great bigman. And how even a lower tier great can do more for my team than a guard often ranked higher all time.

I dont have much trouble seeing David robinson winning 55-60 games on the Cavs or winning a ring with the Heat(maybe not this years....11? Sure he could...still had the real Wade).

I dont find it unlikely that Hakeem or even Duncan when teamed with Scottie Pippen could form a dynasty that won just as much.


Doesnt make all of them equals.

But it has to mean....something.

If may not be "fair". But the bigman advantage is reality.

Guards can do numbers. We are all aware of them.

But two roughly equal players...the bigman can generally do more to make a team win I believe.

Doesnt mean its shown on every team. Coaching plays a factor. Talent. All that.

But generally speaking the bigman advantage is enough to make up for the guard being higher ranked all time to me.

Lebron is the best player right now. Easily.

But that doesnt mean it would be an easy choice to take him over a number of centers who will never get a top 10 ranking. Especially to play this scum at the 5 now.

You could justify taking like.....6-7 bigmen over virtually everyone ever if you throw out the legacy.

In an all time NBA draft....I suspect a lot more bigmen would go high than moderns fans would guess. Other than MJ going top 3 im not sure how it plays out.

But I dont think it would look very much like an all time greatest player list.

I suspect some of that "Always take the bigman" would happen and we might watch the likes of Drob, Moses, And Ewing shoot past a number of guys we rank over them now.

Watching that video makes it hard to takes kobe's 5 rings seriously and those that argue he's higher on the GOAT list than shaq and other legends.

[get these NETS]

Well what you're saying isn't totally false.

What you're omitting is that Shaq took as many uncalled fouls as he dished out if not more so. If he played straight up without fouling and the fouls were called against opponents the opposing team's front line would foul out in the first half of every game. The refs did what they could.


2 different topics

yes..shaq got grabbed bumped hands slapped by help defenders



BUT....if team is playing him straight and Mutombo who is taller with longer arms and decent defensive instincts has established defensive position.....Shaq is not allowed to lower shoulder and knock him over

penalizing defensive effort


you can neutralize strength with good defensive technique, if the game is called fairly

[TonyMontana]

2 different topics

yes..shaq got grabbed bumped hands slapped by help defenders



BUT....if team is playing him straight and Mutombo who is taller with longer arms and decent defensive instincts has established defensive position.....Shaq is not allowed to lower shoulder and knock him over

penalizing defensive effort


you can neutralize strength with good defensive technique, if the game is called fairly

Guys do this all the time.

Because of Shaqs strength and size any move he makes sends guys flying and he can do some real daage to guys bodies just playing the game.

Also works against him in that guys are allowed to play him and hit him harder before a foul is called since his huge body appears to be more resistant to such hits.

Refs have always said Shaq is the toughest guy to officiate. You cant penalize him for his strength, but you don't want him taking dangerous fouls with the idea "Oh hes big he can take it". Both of those happened a lot regardless.


Oscar Robertson wasn't a top 25 player of all time? Jerry West? John Havicek? Dr. J?

Does someone else want to co-sign TonyMontana's opinion? We have people putting Karl Malone and Dirk on all-time lists over Kobe Bryant, and others saying that Oscar isn't a top 25 player of all time. Anyone else want to say something stupid?

I would take guys like Dirk, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Karl Malone over guys like Jerry West, Kobe bryant, Oscar Robertson and I'm not even going to think twice.

[catquickspider]

Well he was better than Lebron.

[MaxFly]

I would take guys like Dirk, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Karl Malone over guys like Jerry West, Kobe bryant, Oscar Robertson and I'm not even going to think twice.

So I'll ask again... Are Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, John Havicek and Dr. J not top 25 NBA players of all time? Let's put aside your disturbing hate for Bryant. Are the players I listed not top 25 NBA players?

[MaxFly]

I'm not sure if I agree 100% with what he's claiming, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that 12 of the first 15 or 20 of the first 25 off the board in an all-time draft would be bigs.

So you're not prepared to say for sure that Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Dr, J are top 25 players of all time? The poster I responded to indicated that none of these guys should be considered top 25 players. I see no reason to equivocate... you either support that claim or not. You either agree 100% or 0%. There's really no room for "I'm not sure I agree 100%." :confusedshrug:

[Hotlantadude81]

Taking everything into consideration, I think Shaq should have been a stronger rebounder than he was. He should have been a 12-15 for at least most of his prime.

[fpliii]

So you're not prepared to say for sure that Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Dr, J are top 25 players of all time? The poster I responded to indicated that none of these guys should be considered top 25 players. I see no reason to equivocate... you either support that claim or not. You either agree 100% or 0%. There's really no room for "I'm not sure I agree 100%." :confusedshrug:

Oh, I definitely think they are (I don't do GOAT rankings anymore, but they're all top 25 locks on anybody's list, for the top 15 even). I thought he was talking about drafting 25 players. My gut feeling is all three would be considered, though I haven't thought about it hard enough. A lot of bigs would come off the board.

[TonyMontana]

So I'll ask again... Are Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, John Havicek and Dr. J not top 25 NBA players of all time? Let's put aside your disturbing hate for Bryant. Are the players I listed not top 25 NBA players?

I'm not going to sit here and make some ****ing list to see what number they land on.

The point is that guys like Ewing/Robinson get comically underrated and that I would no doubt have one of them over any guy you just listed.

[crisoner]

Big men do not get the love that the Jordan, Kobe, LeBron's, Magic, and Bird's of the world do.

I think a lot of people assume just because they are big they do not have the same skill level as the one's mention above.

Look how Wilt, Russel and Kareem are never compared as much as LeBron or Kobe being the GOAT's over Jordan right now.

I know different positions.....but did Kobe or LeBron ever dominate the game like Shaq did between 2000 and 2002?

Think about it.....I'm talking to the folks who watched b-ball back then not the 100's of Kobe and LeBron stans who started 5 years a go.

[LeBird]

Mostly because Orlando got swept. Shaq more than held his own with 28/12/6 and 2 blocks on 60% shooting. Even Penny played well. What killed Orlando, and had nothing to do with Shaq, was that his sharp shooters, Scott and Anderson, shot a combined 17/60 from the 3 point line.

He also took on a bit too much of the blame in the press basically saying that Hakeem schooled him. He really did do well though, as you said.

[MaxFly]

I'm not going to sit here and make some ****ing list to see what number they land on.

The point is that guys like Ewing/Robinson get comically underrated and that I would no doubt have one of them over any guy you just listed.

You said...


If you were to rank the top 25 most valuable players in basketball history the only player on that list who would be under 6'8 would be Jordan because he is the best scorer ever and did it on great efficiency.

I'm not asking you to create a list. I'm asking you to stand by your statement. According to what you said, West, Robertson, Dr. J and Havlicek are not top 25 players in NBA history. This is not a difficult question to answer. Either you stand by your statement and none of these guys are top 25, or you statement is false and some, if not all of these guys are top 25.

Why are you unwilling to say that none of these guys are top 25 after you indicated as such in the statement I originally quoted? :rolleyes:

[DirkNowitzki41]

most dominant player of all time. kobe so lucky :applause:

[MaxFly]

Oh, I definitely think they are (I don't do GOAT rankings anymore, but they're all top 25 locks on anybody's list, for the top 15 even). I thought he was talking about drafting 25 players. My gut feeling is all three would be considered, though I haven't thought about it hard enough. A lot of bigs would come off the board.

A lot of big guys would be taken, but that is generally how it is in most rankings anyway. The majority of people's rankings are top heavy with bigs. But even if we're talking about drafting... knowing how many of these guy's careers turned out, it's a pretty ridiculous thing to say that no player under 6-8 outside of Jordan and Barkley would be drafted in the top 25. That's untenable.

[ThaRegul8r]

Big men do not get the love that the Jordan, Kobe, LeBron's, Magic, and Bird's of the world do.

I think a lot of people assume just because they are big they do not have the same skill level as the one's mention above.

Look how Wilt, Russel and Kareem are never compared as much as LeBron or Kobe being the GOAT's over Jordan right now.

LeBron and Kobe are playing now. Wilt, Russell, and Kareem aren't. Contemporary players are always going to get the most run in GOAT talks. That's just how it is. People watching the game now have no interest in players who played before they started watching basketball or were even born, and it's in the best interest of the league to promote that the league and its players are the best they've ever been right now, because they're the ones making money for them. Simple.

[fpliii]

A lot of big guys would be taken, but that is generally how it is in most rankings anyway. The majority of people's rankings are top heavy with bigs. But even if we're talking about drafting... knowing how many of these guy's careers turned out, it's a pretty ridiculous thing to say that no player under 6-8 outside of Jordan and Barkley would be drafted in the top 25. That's untenable.

I probably wouldn't take Barkley in the top 25 picks, but Jordan wouldn't be the only guy under 6-8. There are a few others, but a good 15-20 would be bigs for sure IMO.

[ILLsmak]

2 different topics

yes..shaq got grabbed bumped hands slapped by help defenders



BUT....if team is playing him straight and Mutombo who is taller with longer arms and decent defensive instincts has established defensive position.....Shaq is not allowed to lower shoulder and knock him over

penalizing defensive effort


you can neutralize strength with good defensive technique, if the game is called fairly

I disagree because if you're saying that then you're saying that physicality should not be allowed. Guys who were physical were the best rebounders, best post players. That's just how it is. The fact that other superstars in the NBA got touch fouls and Shaq never did is amazing.

As for Deke, I dunno man. I wasn't even a big man, but I learned pretty early you don't put your face up in elbow range like that. I don't think it's fair to be able to lean on someone in that way and not allow them to even turn. I was taught you have room to pivot with your elbows out.

-Smak

[boojitede]

Statefarmhoops.com

[boojitede]

to the shaq lovers i say this.

if he's the most dominant ever..why did he not start winning until he had to go through flabby and sick olajuwon, a 36 year old smits who retired that year, a 36 year old mutumbo, and todd mccullough?

never bought into that narrative of most dom ever.

[TonyMontana]

to the shaq lovers i say this.

if he's the most dominant ever..why did he not start winning until he had to go through flabby and sick olajuwon, a 36 year old smits who retired that year, a 36 year old mutumbo, and todd mccullough?

never bought into that narrative of most dom ever.

Dikembe Mutombo was 34 years old, and averaged 13.5 RPG and 3.1 BPG. Oh and he also won Defensive Player of the Year in 2001. If you can't get credit for dominating the defensive player of the year who can you get credit for owning? Shaq dominated the DPOY just as hard as he dominated the nobodies like Mccullough. It didn't matter who he had in front of him, he was going to dominate.

But nice attempt at revising history phagot

[GOBB]

Shaq was a beast, nasty. But atleast acknowledge his offensive fouls (elbow clearouts). Man that pissed me off at how blatant those were for scores. :mad:

[funnystuff]

bosh dropped 30/15 and the gamewinner on the spurs without lebron.. lebrons ball dominance and inability to play off the ball makes his teammates worse.. plain and simple (unless youre a spotup 3 pt shooter then lebron makes you better)
LOL, brings up regular season. Reeeeeeaccch.

[madmax]

Shaq was a beast, nasty. But atleast acknowledge his offensive fouls (elbow clearouts). Man that pissed me off at how blatant those were for scores. :mad:

plenty of those Shaq lovers are simply overlooking how blatantly those offensive "bulldozing" moves were tolerated by the league back in those days:facepalm Dude got hacked and grabbed by the guards, correct, but boy was he allowed to just plow over any defending center without any regard for his life or safety:lol That was pretty comical to watch really.