Marchesk
11-03-2014, 10:24 PM
Bellamy sucked, he never amounted to anything
Other than the HOF. Point is, he was just one of several HOF centers in the 60s besides Russell and Wilt.
mehyaM24
11-03-2014, 10:36 PM
Bellamy did average 31.6 as a rookie, and led the league in FG% that season.
great - and david robinson, patrick ewing, hakeem olajuwon (multiple postseason runs of 30ppg) averaged ~30ppg, had more seasons and playoff runs of 25ppg or higher, and longer sustained dominance.
bottom line is you would be hard-pressed to find BIGS with a better combination of scoring, talent and defense than those of shaq's era.
:confusedshrug:
LAZERUSS
11-03-2014, 10:43 PM
i dont believe shaq was faster - but more coordinated, skilled and mobile. his game tape looks a lot easier on the eyes, and just more impressive all around.
of course, everyone sees these the 2 as MDE - and while many of you are quick to say wilt (largely due to stats), i challenge you to take a closer look and see WHY shaq has a better case for that title.
in wilt's era, there was nobody on the level shaq offensively. bill russell, arguably the greatest defender, was his greatest foe but his absolute best competition were players not just a couple inches shorter - but none even half as good.oth, shaq has faced some the greatest bigs and individual defenders in league history: hakeem, drob, duncan, mutumbo, ewing, ben wallace etc. shaq played in the golden era of big men. shaq dominated in a tougher time than wilt (smaller lane).
i expect some rebuttal with stats - no, shaq wasn't able to drop 100 points or 50 rebounds in a game, but he was still able to get 40+ points in 47 regular season games in his career, have the most dominant finals averages of anyone ever (peak) and was a much, MUCH better postseason performer.
yeah, alright, no where near Wilt's 271, but I want to keep emphasizing how little competition he had in his time.
IF shaq and wilt had been in the same time period as each other, shaq would have put up better numbers, because he was more equipped to handle tougher defenses and skilled players.
^wilt never had this power and speed IN GAME. shaq was quite a bit more polished in the post as well.
Of course virtually everyone points to Wilt's 50 ppg season, and completely ignore his other nine seasons in the decade of the 60's (and before he shredded his knee in game nine of the '70 season.)
I could post Wilt's staggering numbers until the cows come home. He was putting up unfathomable numbers EVERY season in his prime (and continued to do so well after it, as well.)
For those that have not read this before, in Wilt's 68-69 season with the Lakers, LA's incompetent coach asked WILT to sacrifice his offense, so that Baylor could get his. VBK had Wilt playing the high-post, and even benched him during the season. It got so bad that Wilt was averaging a career-low (at the time), 17 ppg at the midway point in the season. In fact, SI ran an article in which it claimed that Wilt could no longer score...which hit the news-stands on 1/27/69.
I am not sure if Wilt caught wind of that article, or not, but in any case, the night before it hit the news-stands, Chamberlain unleashed a 60 point game (mostly at Connie Dierking's expense.) A few days later Wilt exploded for 66 points (on a 60+ record shooting of 29-35 from the field), against mostly Jim Fox. Why are Dierking and Fox important, you ask? More on that in a few...
In a span of 17 games, Wilt averaged 31.1 ppg, which included a 35 point game against Russell...which was his highest scoring game against Russell since his 46 point game in the EDF's series clinching loss in '66.
Of course, VBK would have none of that in the post-season, and Wilt hardly saw the ball (while Baylor shot a putrid .385 in his post-season run.)
I mentioned Dierking and Fox. Rookie Kareem would join the NBA the very next season (69-70), and faced both of those guys on numerous occasions. His high point games against both... 41 points.
Oh, and speaking of rookie Kareem...before the start of that 69-70 season, Wilt's new coach, Joe Mullaney, after witnessing the massive failure of van Breda Kolff, came to Wilt and asked him to be the focal point of the offense. Chamberlain relished the role, and in the first nine games of that season, he was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (and on a .579 FG%, as well as averaging 20 rpg.) And that number wasn't inflated by one or two huge games, but rather, he was dominating in almost all of them. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points. The 37 point demolition came at the expense of the reigning MVP, Wes Unseld. The 38 point game was against 7-0 270 lb Tom Boerwinkle (and before you scoff, he was a very good defensive center, and one of the best TRB% rebounders of his era...as well as giving Kareem trouble in the 70's.) Chamberlain's 42 point game came against Bob Rule (go ahead and look him up...he was on his way to a great career, that was unfortunately, cut short by injuries.) And his 43 point explosion was once again...poured in against Dierking (remember that Kareem's high game against him in multiple H2H's, was only 41 points?) Of course, a PRIME Wilt had MANY HUGE games games against Dierking, including games of 63, and another in which he outscored Dierking by a 59-4 margin. And in the '67 playoffs, Wilt hung a 28-27-11 .617 series against him (yes, a TRIPLE DOUBLE SERIES), which likely included at least one QUAD DOUBLE of 16-30-19, and a reported 20 blocks. Oh, and in his one H2H with rookie Kareem before he blew out his knee...he outplayed KAJ in every fact of the game (outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2; and outshot him from the field by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin (.643 to .429.)
In Wilt's ninth game of that '70 season, he was probably on his way to a staggering performance. With five minutes left in the third quarter, he shredded his knee...in a game in which he had scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting (so, he was on his way to yet another 40+ point game, and perhaps even a 50 pointer.) He would never be the same again. Still, in the playoffs, he engineered a comeback from a 3-1 first round deficit with three sensational games, including a 36 point game five; a 12-26-11-11 quad game six; and a 30-27 11 block game seven. In the Finals, a stiff-legged Wilt, with nowhere near his normal vertical, and with limited lateral functionality, still put up a 23-24 .625 series...and he was clearly LA's best player in the last two games of that Finals. All only four months removed from major knee surgery.
So, as you now know, Chamberlain was an offensive force into his 11th season, and at age 33.
And I have mentioned it before, but as great as Kareem was (and I now have him at either 4-or-5 with Russell on my list), he never came CLOSE to the domination that a PRIME Chamberlain overwhelmed the league by. And he faced many of the same centers that a PRIME Chamberlain faced a few years earlier (only older and fading), and was NOWHERE NEAR as dominant against them, that a PRIME Chamberlain had been.
Kareem's high game against Reed was 41 points.
In 24 games against Bellamy, KAJ's high games were 40, 39, and 35 points.
In some 40 career H2H's with a full-time Thurmond, Kareem had SIX games of 30+ points, with a high of 34 points. Oh, and BTW, in that same span...KAJ shot...get this... .447 against Nate.
Kareem's high against Dierking was 41 points. His high against Fox was 41 points. His high against Imhoff...46 points, and his next highest mark was 36.
How about a PRIME Chamberlain against those same centers?
Reed? Chamberlain had an entire SEASON, covering 12 H2H's, in which he averaged 38.6 ppg (and on a .546 FG%.) Included were beatdowns by margins of 46-25, 41-8, 52-23, and 58-28. Even as late as the 68-69 season (Reed's best season), Chamberlain averaged 28 ppg on a .686 FG% against Reed.
Thurmond? A prime "scoring" Wilt, in a span of 11 straight games from the end of the 64-65 season, thru all nine H2H's of the '65-66 season, and into his first game of the 66-67 season...equaled KAJ's career SIX 30+ point games. And he plastered Thurmond with margins of 38-15 and an unbelievable 45-13 massacre. A PRIME Chamberlain, in his 66-67 season, averaged 20.8 ppg on...get this... a .633 FG% against a PEAK Thurmond (while holding Nate to a 13 ppg .320 FG% in their six H2H's.)
Bellamy? Where do I begin? In a span of 20 straight H2H's, from bellamy's peak season in 61-62, thru their 62-63 H2H's...Wilt averaged...hold on... 48.2 ppg (yes, AVERAGED 48.2 ppg over the course of 20 straight games.) He had FOUR games of 60+, including a 73-36 game. And he slaughtered Bellamy his ENTIRE career, even into his last season. I won't take the time to look up his 50 point games against Bellamy, but it likely considerably more, just against Bellamy, than what Kareem had against everyone in his 20 year career.
Dierking? Carpet-bombed him in every facet, including 60+ games.
Fox? Chamberlain was past his prime, and STILL hung a 66 point game on him (on an unfathomable 29-35 shooting.)
Imhoff? Games of 60+, including... yes, a 100 point game (albeit, Imhoff was just part of that bloodshed.) Interesting, too, that Imhoff and Wilt squared off a couple nights later, and Imhoff received the only standing ovation of his career...he "held" Wilt to 58 points.
Even in Wilt's last two seasons, he battled the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier in 11 H2H games, and averaged 24 ppg on a .750 FG% against him (including a 32-31 game.) Oh, and in his last season, he held a prime Lanier to a .374 FG%. He also held a PEAK Kareem to a .450 FG% in six H2H's that same season.
And I won't bother getting into Wilt's TOTAL DOMINATION in rebounding H2H's against EVERY center he faced. Even a Wilt nearing the end of his career, was still the best rebounder in the game...and in the WCF's, against Thurmond who had finished 2nd during the regular season...he crushed Nate by a 24-17 rpg margin.
Nor will I get into Wilt's DEFENSE...not only TEAM DEFENSE and blocked shots...but his incredible lock-down defense against virtually every HOF center he faced (ok, Cowens did give him fits in Wilt's last season...albeit, on a .454 FG%.) Needless to say, Chamberlain was blocking over 5 shots per game in his LAST season, and likely had seasons of 10+ in his prime. And he DRAMATICALLY reduced the FG% efficiencies of virtually every center he faced., including a PEAK Kareem.
LAZERUSS
11-03-2014, 10:58 PM
Bellamy sucked, he never amounted to anything
Bellamy had SEASONS, covering 9-10 H2H's, of 30 ppg and 33 ppg against RUSSELL. He had high games of 41, 45, and even 47 points against RUSSELL.
Even in the twilight of his career, Bellamy was hanging 19 ppg .545 FG% seasons.
Of course, RUSSELL never amounted to anything, either.
Psileas
11-04-2014, 10:21 AM
Wilt is Peak for Peak N1 Its Not Even Close :confusedshrug:
Him MJ and Kareem Are Top 3 All Time.
And prime for prime in general. And arguably even past prime for past prime.
The debate for almost everyone who's watched Wilt play is whether he's the GOAT or only top-3. Top 10? Come back in like 200 years and the question may be kind of relevant.
LAZERUSS
11-04-2014, 11:46 AM
And prime for prime in general. And arguably even past prime for past prime.
The debate for almost everyone who's watched Wilt play is whether he's the GOAT or only top-3. Top 10? Come back in like 200 years and the question may be kind of relevant.
I would also argue that past his career vs. anyone else past their's, as well. Chamberlain was receiving LEGITIMATE offers to play in the NBA at 50 years old. And Larry Brown, himself, witnessed a mid-40's Wilt dominating a summer league in which Magic Johnson was playing in.
BTW, how many players were as dominant in their LAST NBA season, as Wilt was in his.
Asukal
11-04-2014, 11:51 AM
I would also argue that past his career vs. anyone else past their's, as well. Chamberlain was receiving LEGITIMATE offers to play in the NBA at 50 years old. And Larry Brown, himself, witnessed a mid-40's Wilt dominating a summer league in which Magic Johnson was playing in.
I bet you believe Wilt's remains can play and dominate today's game too. :rolleyes:
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