prime dirk vs current durant?

[DMAVS41]

But it was to the bolded. Marion/Kidd/Chandler collectively shut down 3 superstars in a row with great individual defensive stands.

Dwight isnt Lebron offensively.. it's not even close. Melo isnt Durant or Kobe.. again not close. The Lakers didn't win because they were shutting down individual matchups on a consistent basis. They won because they had the best frontline and best player in every series they played. Those were their two strengths.

The Mavericks won because a) their individual defenders shut down the other teams superstar for three rounds in a row and b) Dirk going off in the clutch. Both were equally as important. Just like Kobe isnt winning without his frontline, Dirk isnt winning without his individual defenders having a all time great defensive stand.

The main difference here is that everyone acknowledges Kobe's help as being great.. you still dont acknowledge that how the Mavs players performed was great as well. You keep listing names and offensive stats and brush aside important things like lockdown defense as 'eh it was good'. Sorry man.. not true. It was instrumental and one of the most important things in the entire run.

Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.

Lets try this on. 09 Melo was definitely on par with 11 Durant...and 09 Melo was definitely better than 11 Kobe. Sorry. 09 Melo in the playoffs was a beast...best ball he's ever played by far. The fact that you think 11 Kobe was better offensively and it's not close just shows how ignorant you are.

The stats are important. Dirk played plenty of time without Chandler. In fact, he played at least 7 minutes per game without Chandler...and that is if Chandler was never on the court when Dirk was off. So most likely...Dirk was on the court between 9 and 10 minutes a game without Chandler...that is roughly 25% of on court time. Ouch...facts hurting your arguments again.

You also fail to talk about Wade absolutely shredding us in the finals. Funny how you miss that...right?

I don't even know your point now. I'm not saying Dirk won alone...I never have. But if you want me to say that what Dirk brought to the table was not clearly the most important cog in the Mavs machine...I won't. What Dirk did was the most important...it was more important than anything else that happened. And the defense overall was simply not as good as you say. I've showed you the actual ****ing data...you are just running to bias from watching Lebron and Kobe struggle. Was Dirk's help great? Well...no...not at all for title winning teams. It was below average actually for title winning teams. Terry is a historically weak 2nd option and the team defense was absolutely nothing special for title winning teams. It was a really good team that got hot and saw their best player play at a level in close games not seen since MJ...



And again you don't give Dirk any credit. He improved the defense, played very good individual defense at his position, and improved the defensive rebounding...and he made no impact? LOL

You can't just run to Chandler to explain everything. You do realize that Chandler only played 32 mpg...right?

[tpols]

Lets try this on. 09 Melo was definitely on par with 11 Durant...and 09 Melo was definitely better than 11 Kobe. Sorry. 09 Melo in the playoffs was a beast...best ball he's ever played by far. The fact that you think 11 Kobe was better offensively and it's not close just shows how ignorant you are.

The stats are important. Dirk played plenty of time without Chandler. In fact, he played at least 7 minutes per game without Chandler...and that is if Chandler was never on the court when Dirk was off. So most likely...Dirk was on the court between 9 and 10 minutes a game without Chandler...that is roughly 25% of on court time. Ouch...facts hurting your arguments again.

You also fail to talk about Wade absolutely shredding us in the finals. Funny how you miss that...right?

I don't even know your point now. I'm not saying Dirk won alone...I never have. But if you want me to say that what Dirk brought to the table was not clearly the most important cog in the Mavs machine...I won't. What Dirk did was the most important...it was more important than anything else that happened. And the defense overall was simply not as good as you say. I've showed you the actual ****ing data...you are just running to bias from watching Lebron and Kobe struggle. Was Dirk's help great? Well...no...not at all for title winning teams. It was below average actually for title winning teams. Terry is a historically weak 2nd option and the team defense was absolutely nothing special for title winning teams. It was a really good team that got hot and saw their best player play at a level in close games not seen since MJ...

And again you don't give Dirk any credit. He improved the defense, played very good individual defense at his position, and improved the defensive rebounding...and he made no impact? LOL

You can't just run to Chandler to explain everything. You do realize that Chandler only played 32 mpg...right?
I disagree with your assessment on Melo.. but its besides the point. You cant say vanything about Lebron versus Dwight offensively. Wade? Sure he stepped it up in the Finals.. except in the last two games when Kidd held him to 42% shooting and shut him down in the clutch.. No coincidence Dallas won those games while Dirk was shooting 18/45 from the floor including a never talked about 9 for 27 close out game.:oldlol:


Overall? LA wasnt shutting down premier talent over and over like the Mavs were. Kobe-->Durant-->Lebron is a lot more impressive than Melo(who was shutdown on the perimeter.. where Kobe plays.. not like Dirk had any hand at all in stopping Durant/Kobe/Bron)-->Dwight(whose offensive game has been completely exposed in recent years anyways).


Just admit it.. Mavs indivudal defensive assignments were CRITICAL in them winning. Why is it so hard for only you to accept?

[DMAVS41]

I disagree with your assessment on Melo.. but its besides the point. You cant say vanything about Lebron versus Dwight offensively. Wade? Sure he stepped it up in the Finals.. except in the last two games when Kidd held him to 42% shooting and shut him down in the clutch.. No coincidence Dallas won those games while Dirk was shooting 18/45 from the floor including a never talked about 9 for 27 close out game.:oldlol:


Overall? LA wasnt shutting down premier talent over and over like the Mavs were. Kobe-->Durant-->Lebron is a lot more impressive than Melo(who was shutdown on the perimeter.. where Kobe plays.. not like Dirk had any hand at all in stopping Durant/Kobe/Bron)-->Dwight(whose offensive game has been completely exposed in recent years anyways).


Just admit it.. Mavs indivudal defensive assignments were CRITICAL in them winning. Why is it so hard for only you to accept?


I'm not saying the defense wasn't important. I'm saying that it was routine for all championship teams to play defense like that. And no...I'm not denying how important it was. But what you are doing is ignoring that championship teams routinely play better defense than the 11 Mavs did. You talked about Kobe's frontcourt in 09...but you fail to realize the team defense they played at least as good as the Mavs in 11 overall. You can't just remove Kobe from it...Kobe made an impact on the defense...you essentially are doubling up on Dirk pretending he just does nothing. It just doesn't work that way...it would be like me saying that Kobe needed a better defense, better front court, better 2nd option, better coaching...etc. It's doubling up. It's built in to the front court talk...the defense of the Mavs, for starters, wasn't as good...and Dirk impacted it whether you like it or not.

09 Melo was clearly better than 11 Kobe in the playoffs. It's not ****ing debatable. And limiting an interior player is no more or less valuable than limiting a perimeter player. The Lakers shut Howard down compared to what he was doing before. I never said it was harder to shut him down than Lebron...I was just giving you more examples.

The defense the Mavs played was very good...it just wasn't great and it wasn't as important as Dirk. It's not hard. Seriously...go down the list...it's actually one of the overall weaker defenses in the playoffs to win the title.

And I love how you just shrug off Wade like he didn't go nuts the first 4 games and then got hurt luckily.

But again...my issue isn't with giving the defense credit. It was very important. the issue is pretending like Dirk did nothing to help it...which is just factually false no matter how hard you try.

Tpols...you constantly talk out of your ass...and got caught as usual.

Are you willing to retract the following statements?

1. 11 Kobe was easily better than 09 Melo offensively in the playoffs...can't wait to hear this one...

Kobe 23/3/3 on 53.6% TS vs Melo 27/6/4 56.4% TS, but yep...Kobe was definitely better and it wasn't close...dat tpols logic...

2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...I showed you that he was probably playing between 8 to 10 minutes a game without him...roughly 25% of his time on the court...and the Mavs defense got better with Dirk out there...it's a ****ing fact


This is what is really going on. It's a bunch of people that were wrong about Dirk and hate admitting that...so they have to come up with reasons why the Mavs won and exclude Dirk. You have to ignore that the Mavs literally fell apart on offense without Dirk in the games in the playoffs...if these guys were so good...why couldn't they do anything on offense without Dirk? 115 offensive rating with Dirk on the floor...101.8 with him out. ROFL...that is horrible. But he wasn't as important as the defense he improved by being on the floor. A 104.8 defensive rating with Dirk...108.4 rating without him. So you have to ignore all that stuff and pretend like a guy averaging 18/2/3 and a center playing good defense averaging 8/9/1 and a few other solid role players constitutes this amazing, never before seen, type team. When in reality...the 11 Mavs supporting cast was ho hum for a title winner...towards the bottom when you factor in competition level vs team strength...

[tpols]

These are strawmans but theyre too easy so Ill respond..



1. 11 Kobe was easily better than 09 Melo offensively in the playoffs...can't wait to hear this one...

Kobe 23/3/3 on 53.6% TS vs Melo 27/6/4 56.4% TS, but yep...Kobe was definitely better and it wasn't close...dat tpols logic...

You're using a small sample of stats where Kobe was shut down by individual lockdown maverick defense that I have been advocating for all along to prove YOUR point? Checkmate?:oldlol:




2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...I showed you that he was probably playing between 8 to 10 minutes a game without him...roughly 25% of his time on the court...and the Mavs defense got better with Dirk out there...
And the other 75% of the time he's with Chandler??

Like I said, Chandler and Dirk are intertwined in the defensive on/off for 75% of Dirk's play.. your stats are literally meaningless.


And Dirk did NOTHING to slow down Kobe/Durant/Wade/Lebron.. literally nothing. It was Tyson/Kidd/Marion that were carrying that load. And they consistently shut down the superstars.

[tpols]

2. That Dirk never played without Chandler...
.



Dont pull any more team defense stats when were talking about matchups.. and even worse, dont pull out the Dirk's on off impact on defense when he sat with Tyson on the bench for the majority of his on off minutes. Your use of stats is utterly useless sometimes.

Another DMAVs strawman.. I didnt say Dirk never played without Tyson.. I said the majority. And I was right. 75% of the time would constitute that.

Fvck off dude.

[DMAVS41]

These are strawmans but theyre too easy so Ill respond..



You're using a small sample of stats where Kobe was shut down by individual lockdown maverick defense that I have been advocating for all along to prove YOUR point? Checkmate?:oldlol:



And the other 75% of the time he's with Chandler??

Like I said, Chandler and Dirk are intertwined in the defensive on/off for 75% of Dirk's play.. your stats are literally meaningless.


And Dirk did NOTHING to slow down Kobe/Durant/Wade/Lebron.. literally nothing. It was Tyson/Kidd/Marion that were carrying that load. And they consistently shut down the superstars.

Not strawmans at all you ****ing moron. 25% is a lot of time to be on the court without the guy that apparently is the only reason Dirk has good defensive measures. Again...the defense improves while Dirk is on the floor. Why doesn't the same thing impact Terry? He's on the floor about 75% of the time with Chandler...yet the defense gets 3 points worse for him. The fact is that Dirk helped the defense...that is my point. And it's clear that the best defenders, using the same criteria, were Chandler, Kidd, and Marion. There is a reason why the defense gets worse when certain guys are on the court. Again...whether you want to admit it or not, the Mavs played good defense with Dirk on the floor. He played the most minutes out of anyone on the team...and made all the impacts I've talked about. Pretending he's JJ Barea or Terry on defense is a joke. Dirk was a positive impact defender on the Mavs...not to mention we haven't discussed your logic last time about how great offensive players allow role players to do their jobs...when you argued for Rose's offense making the defense better. Dirk does that in spades...and happens to improve the defense while he's on the floor.

Now...on to Kobe. Uhhh...no.

Kobe vs the Hornets in round 1:

23/4/4 on 43/37/83

Kobe vs the Mavs:

23/3/3 on 46/23/80

ROFL...yes, it was the Mavs all time great defense that did it. He didn't average virtually the same production in the round before. Holy shit you are a joke. Checkmate? Seriously...what the **** is wrong with you? You can't be this stupid...

And honestly...Kobe's numbers are even better than that because his only shit game was really the game 4 blowout in which Kobe and the Lakers quit. He dropped 36 in game 1 of that series by the way...in case you forgot.

But again you just talk out of your ass. It wasn't the Mavs...he came into the Mavs series essentially averaging what he did during the series...with a game 4 blowout mixed in...LOL

Let me guess...the Hornets also had an unreal defense...right?


And god damnit...stop saying we slowed down Wade. We didn't. A player averaging 27/7/5 on 55% shooting is not slowing a player down. The sad thing...is that it was even worse than that as his play fell off dramatically after his injury. Seriously...you can't just make shit up;

Kobe played just the same he did in his first series...and Wade went off...way better than he was against anyone in the East. Dude averaged 24/7/5 49%fg for the playoffs...with the Mavs series counted. That means he was at like 23/7/5 46% shooting before our series.

So two of the 4 guys you constantly list either played the same (Kobe)...or got noticeably better.

Checkmate?

[Black and White]

Whoa??!!! This debate is still going on????

[DMAVS41]

Another DMAVs strawman.. I didnt say Dirk never played without Tyson.. I said the majority. And I was right. 75% of the time would constitute that.

Fvck off dude.

You dont' get it. The team wouldn't be getting better on defense with Dirk being out there if he didn't make a positive impact on defense. See...Haywood would come in for those minutes often...and the Mavs on court defensive rating for him was 112...and he played 15 mpg. That isn't something to scoff at...it's almost a third of the game. And the defense got noticeably worse with Barea and Peja coming into the game. If Dirk wasn't a positive impact defender...there is no way the team could have kept it's defense solid with the likes of Terry, Barea, ...Peja. Peja and Barea were playing like 19 mpg and Terry was playing 33.

Look...it was obvious to anyone watching that Kidd, Marion, and Chandler were the key defenders. Stevenson play really solid in his minutes as well. But Haywood was hurt and didn't play all that great defense...and the above guys I mentioned just play shit defense...the team got worse with them on the court...and they spent a lot of time on the court.

So it's just virtually impossible for Dirk (if he's a poor defender) to improve the team defense when he's on the court vs off it...given all that. You can't give that much credit to 1 player...playing only 32 minutes per game. How the **** did the Mavs do it the other 16 mpg? Shit...our defense was really bad when Haywood was on the court. We didn't have another big that played any meaningful minutes.

This is why I said the defense was good, but not great. We weren't that good unless Chandler was out there. We were even worse when Chandler was missing and Kidd/Marion were out as well.

If Dirk hurt the Mavs defense. Playing him 40 mpg, along with Terry 33, and 19 each for Barea and Peja...you simply could not have the numbers show what they show. Not only that, but Dirk was the player on our team spending the most time out there playing against the other teams best players and lineups.

You need to understand that Chandler was missing for 16 minutes a game. He only played 2/3 of each game. Marion as well.

This wasn't ****ing prime KG anchoring a defense for like 42 minutes a game. Far from it.

**** off moron.

Oh, just found it. Chandler was on the floor only 67% of the time Dirk was on the floor. that means 33% of the time Dirk was out there...he was without Chandler. Dirk was out there 20% of the time with Haywood at center. Considering the defensive rating of Haywood...and the fact that Haywood played 60% of his minutes with Dirk...it gets virtually impossible to claim Dirk didn't help the defense and give Chandler all the credit.

In addition to the above, the 3rd most used lineup by the mavs in the playoffs was Dirk, Haywood, Barea, Peja, and Terry...

[Solefade]

Yes. He said 11 Terry was one of the best 2nd options...better than Gasol.

And what makes it even better...he claims individual defense is extremely important. Terry, is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league...he's atrocious. He is a net negative...his teams always get noticeably better on defense when he's out of the game.

Yep...you heard it right. 11 Terry was better than 10 Gasol...rofl



LOOOOLLLLLLLL another Kobetard downplaying Pau in 2008-2010 to make Kobe look better.

[DMAVS41]

LOOOOLLLLLLLL another Kobetard downplaying Pau in 2008-2010 to make Kobe look better.

the best part of it is that he rails on Dirk for only being a scorer...saying overall play is much better.

it's why he says Durant is better than prime Dirk..his overall play.

Then, literally 6 posts later.

He says that Terry was better than peak Gasol

That a 18/2/3 player that plays shit defense is better than a 21/11/4 player that plays quality interior defense.

He, of course, left the thread when this was pointed out...:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Pointguard]

Stop dancing around. It's all you do...pathetic.

There is no argument for Terry being better than Gasol...none

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Seriously...all of those teams had significantly better defensive metrics in the playoffs
I already explained this to you. The metrics doen't mean a thing. If you confuse, isolate or befuddle the leader you don't have to worry about the other metrics. Miami only went after Rose in the previous series. Dallas only needed to go after Lebron and contain Wade. They played man to man and then went hard at Durant near the end of games. The metrics were inferior to that quest.

No leader no win:

Khengis Khan had the best offensive ground army ever. They won thousands of battles without defeat. The metrics were phenomenal. Now without Khan(s) that same army began loosing battles left and right. Same mechanics, same offense, same warring ways. Get the leader and the chips will fall.

Great defenses accomplish great feats.

[Pointguard]

Wait........

WHAT??? :wtf:

Is this actually being discussed? :roll:

Terry has value like Dirk has value - they score timely baskets. The team covered all the other duties. They needed a guy to score timely buckets and not much else.

Its funny Dirk can be a top twenty GOAT in your guys GOAT list for his ability to score in a timely way in the playoffs. Terry was not only a much more efficient scorer in the crucial finals games (btw, both times), he was nearly as productive. In the loses there is a big difference, but in the wins and crucial games, he is very close to equal.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Or thirty more shots for four more baskets. In the '06 finals, in the last three games its very similar to what is above.

Who was the most consistent scorer on Dallas in their Finals wins? I want you to answer that. Who was the most efficient scorer?

Wouldn't it make more sense that Pau Gasol would come in and replace Dirk? But the Dallas team didn't need more rebounds, defense or good interior passing. They just needed more timely buckets.

[Black and White]

Terry has value like Dirk has value - they score timely baskets. The team covered all the other duties. They needed a guy to score timely buckets and not much else.

Its funny Dirk can be a top twenty GOAT in your guys GOAT list for his ability to score in a timely way in the playoffs. Terry was not only a much more efficient scorer in the crucial finals games (btw, both times), he was nearly as productive. In the loses there is a big difference, but in the wins and crucial games, he is very close to equal.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games.

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Or thirty more shots for four more baskets. In the '06 finals, in the last three games its very similar to what is above.

Who was the most consistent scorer on Dallas in their Finals wins? I want you to answer that. Who was the most efficient scorer?

Wouldn't it make more sense that Pau Gasol would come in and replace Dirk? But the Dallas team didn't need more rebounds, defense or good interior passing. They just needed more timely buckets.


:biggums: I think that just kills all your credibility in this arguement

[Pointguard]

The rest is more BS...take a look at the production above combined with good but not great defense...

seriously...let's look at the defenses that have won the title lately

Heat in 13 and 12 were better...
Lakers in 10 were worse
Lakers in 09 were better...
Celtics in 08 were better
Spurs in 07 were better
Heat in 06 were better
Spurs in 05 were better
Pistons in 04 were better
Spurs in 03 were better
Lakers in 02 were better
Lakers in 01 were better

Dirk averaged 26 ppg in the finals. Thats not enough to say his offense was great. It simply isn't. When you consider that the team he faced had a guy average 9 more ppg before his prime do it. And another guy that would go on to average 3 more ppg than that the next year. Almost every year you mentioned that had a great scorer, someone scored more than 26ppg. It was very good but definitely not enough to claim it was worth more than the defense.

If Dirk's offense won the series then he simply outscores Wade and he didn't even accomplish that. To say his offense was as much as the Dallas defense doesn't make sense.

[veilside23]

:facepalm Dirk won it all by himself this Dmavs guy is full of himself and giving little credit to his teammates even playing by the numbers and yet has no numbers showing that dirk was a great defensively while kidd marion chandler controlled the numbers of the opponent .. i am not saying that dirk is bad defensively but to just simply put that he won it all offensively is meaningless because its their defense and offense that won the ring dirk had a workload on offense but his team mates played better defensively even if chandler wasnt there a washed out haywood played a big role as well.

he is trying to prove a point to simply put dirk over kg just because he plays defense :facepalm

[Pointguard]

:biggums: I think that just kills all your credibility in this arguement
No offense but you can't read. Refute what is written in the next line. Back yourself up rather than these horrible one liners that prove you didn't even read the next line.

You simply can't say Dirk scores like the other top scorers do. He doesn't lead the league in scoring, he doesn't get 27ppg, he doesn't get in the top three of scoring. But he has been getting more timely baskets and that's his claim to fame - along with playoff scoring. Both of which I showed that Terry has done.

[Black and White]

No offense but you can't read. Refute what is written in the next line. Back yourself up rather than these horrible one liners that prove you didn't even read the next line.

You simply can't say Dirk scores like the other top scorers do. He doesn't lead the league in scoring, he doesn't get 27ppg, he doesn't get in the top three of scoring. But he has been getting more timely baskets and that's his claim to fame - along with playoff scoring. Both of which I showed that Terry has done.

Tbh i think youe being a little narrow minded when it comes to Dirk if you think that all he does is make timely baskets, he does much more than that, he is a floor leader, he can create shots (something the great scorers do), has one of the best midrange games, he was the driving force behind the whole mavs unit,

But to your credit the whole team did step up tho, but they wouldn't have been able to get it done if they didn't have Dirk perform the way he did.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk averaged 26 ppg in the finals. Thats not enough to say his offense was great. It simply isn't. When you consider that the team he faced had a guy average 9 more ppg before his prime do it. And another guy that would go on to average 3 more ppg than that the next year. Almost every year you mentioned that had a great scorer, someone scored more than 26ppg. It was very good but definitely not enough to claim it was worth more than the defense.

If Dirk's offense won the series then he simply outscores Wade and he didn't even accomplish that. To say his offense was as much as the Dallas defense doesn't make sense.

Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol. Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

You fail...and fail miserably

Truth.com

[The JKidd Kid]

Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol. Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

You fail...and fail miserably

Truth.com

Another guy that denies what the stats are saying and you should believe him cause he "says so".

[Pointguard]

Tbh i think youe being a little narrow minded when it comes to Dirk if you think that all he does is make timely baskets, he does much more than that, he is a floor leader,
In what way? Jason Kidd is the main floor leader.


he can create shots (something the great scorers do),

For himself??? for others??? He doesn't dribble much and isn't a great creator like the other great scorers. Maybe you can explain how its different for Jason Terry?


has one of the best midrange games, he was the driving force behind the whole mavs unit,
The midrange game is indeed a great quality so I will give you that. But Terry's long range game was more accurate in the wins which I was obviously talking about.


But to your credit the whole team did step up tho, but they wouldn't have been able to get it done if they didn't have Dirk perform the way he did. Since you obviously didn't read it.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games. In the last three games after the series was tied

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

When Terry plays bad they lost both games. When Dirk plays bad they still won. When Terry plays well they win. When Dirk was most productive scoring wise they lost. They won 3 of 4 games when Terry took more than 12 shots - as he was the most efficient shooter on Dallas.

Yet Dirk's offense is suppose to mean more than the defense? You two are waaaaay off base. Dirk wasn't their most consistent scorer or their most efficient scorer when they won.

[Black and White]

In what way? Jason Kidd is the main floor leader.

For himself??? for others??? He doesn't dribble much and isn't a great creator like the other great scorers. Maybe you can explain how its different for Jason Terry?

The midrange game is indeed a great quality so I will give you that. But Terry's long range game was more accurate in the wins which I was obviously talking about.
Since you obviously didn't read it.

Terry made more baskets and three pointers shooting 20 shots less in the last three games. In the last three games after the series was tied

Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk
Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

When Terry plays bad they lost both games. When Dirk plays bad they still won. When Terry plays well they win. When Dirk was most productive scoring wise they lost. They won 3 of 4 games when Terry took more than 12 shots - as he was the most efficient shooter on Dallas.

Yet Dirk's offense is suppose to mean more than the defense? You two are waaaaay off base. Dirk wasn't their most consistent scorer or their most efficient scorer when they won.

When you put it like that, the numbers don't lie. Terry played a very good role, I do remember him closing off a game. Credit where credits due, you make a good point,

As long as you admit that there is more to Dirk then just being an opportunistic scorer im cool with it :cheers:

[Black and White]

Oh and i meant hes good at creating shots for himself, not so much others. Similar to Kobe Bryant.

[SCdac]

anyone know what KD and Dirk's individual Win-% is in the regular season and in the playoffs?

Only thing I could find was a article from 2011, in which it states Dirk's Win-% is one of the best amongst current players, but that it drops off quite a bit in the playoffs.

Regular season: 627-322 (.661)
Post season: 48-55 (.466)

[DMAVS41]

When you put it like that, the numbers don't lie. Terry played a very good role, I do remember him closing off a game. Credit where credits due, you make a good point,

As long as you admit that there is more to Dirk then just being an opportunistic scorer im cool with it :cheers:
:facepalm

Dude...he's cherry picking games. LOL

This isn't about who was better in wins in the finals...come on now

Not to mention it all stems from Dirk. Terry can rarely get his own shot...he relies almost exclusively on the Dirk pick and roll to get looks...

[Black and White]

:facepalm

Dude...he's cherry picking games. LOL

Wait what???????

[DMAVS41]

Wait what???????

He's listing 4 games...

How about all the games in which Terry was much much much much worse?

His problem is that he honestly thinks Dirk is just Terry who scores 10 more ppg...when in fact Dirk can have an elite offense run through him. He makes everyone better...etc. He just doesn't understand Dirk's value...and he's hell bent on over-rating the shit out of truly one dimensional players like Terry to try and make people think Dirk isn't that good.

Yet, the sad thing is, in his twisted mind he thinks he values overall play...yet his take on Terry is the exact opposite.

So if Terry is better than Gasol...how good must he think Dirk really is? Not only is Dirk a far better scorer than Terry...he's far more clutch...a far better defender/rebounder, and makes his teammates much better...LOL

[Black and White]

He's listing 4 games...

How about all the games in which Terry was much much much much worse?

Whats Dirk and Terrys full stats over the whole series??

[Pointguard]

Because he does way more than just score. He spaces the floor and runs an elite pick and roll game. He also rebounds (10 per game in the finals) and defends a lot better than you give him credit for...as I have now showed factually...and just the eye test as well.

Every scorer spaces the floor. Scoring is scoring, if the pick and roll is way more efficient than other means of scoring then it counts.

Sorry a team metric does not mean a player is responsible for the teams defense. Dirk has never held a superstar player down in his career. It's a freak accident in 2 year career. But never in 14 year career is a definite indication.


But again...who cares what you think? You think Terry was better than peak Gasol.

Which is laughable even more for you because you value all around play. Terry is a poor playmaker, rebounder, and defender...he does nothing well but score...and even his scoring is below average for a championship 2nd option.

Truth.com
Hmmmm. So Dirk is a conversation with all time greats when he's the worst defender of the bunch, the worst defender, and the most one dimensional. Can we say CCONTTTRADICTION.

I really don't care about Terry vs Pau comparison. I just knew you would go where you just did. Terry's value is timely scoring, especially when Dirk's shooting goes below 40% and he comes in taking 20 less shots to get the same amount of points.

[DMAVS41]

Every scorer spaces the floor. Scoring is scoring, if the pick and roll is way more efficient than other means of scoring then it counts.

Sorry a team metric does not mean a player is responsible for the teams defense. Dirk has never held a superstar player down in his career. It's a freak accident in 2 year career. But never in 14 year career is a definite indication.

Hmmmm. So Dirk is a conversation with all time greats when he's the worst defender of the bunch, the worst defender, and the most one dimensional. Can we say CCONTTTRADICTION.

I really don't care about Terry vs Pau comparison. I just knew you would go where you just did. Terry's value is timely scoring, especially when Dirk's shooting goes below 40% and he comes in taking 20 less shots to get the same amount of points.

But Dirk actually isn't...you just say he is. He's a 26/10/3 player for his career in the playoffs on some of the best overall efficiency...and his teams offense is always great.

He does way more than you give him credit for. The contradiction is with you moron. If you value Terry over Gasol...that means you value the things I claim are important you ****ing moron. Terry is like maybe 40% as good as Dirk..maybe...and you have Terry ranked over a 21/11/4 great all around power forward!!!!

jahahahahahahahahah

So obviously you value clutch scoring and efficient offense hugely...way more than I do...because I'd say Gasol is significantly better than terry

[DMAVS41]

Whats Dirk and Terrys full stats over the whole series??

I think Dirk was something like 27/10/2...can't remember with Terry

But again...that is cherry picking. It's about the entire playoffs. And it's about the impact they each make.

It's not even remotely close.

Please don't fall for his bullshit. Of course the Mavs win when Terry plays well. That's what happens when you give Dirk a legit 2nd option. If Terry just averaged like 21 ppg like every 2nd option on title winning teams do...we honestly might have gone undefeated in the playoffs. That is how good Dirk was/is...give him a reliable 2nd fiddle and you can't stop him. Because you have to double him too often and if his teammates can make open shots and a guy can get the offense through the 10 minutes he's not out there...it's very difficult to beat him.

That's the whole point. Terry played like 85% like a normal championship 2nd option...and we won the title. Give Dirk a normal 2nd fiddle and an average championship defense and he's winning multiple titles...even against great competition. Been saying it for years...it happens...title. End of story.

[Black and White]

He's listing 4 games...

How about all the games in which Terry was much much much much worse?

His problem is that he honestly thinks Dirk is just Terry who scores 10 more ppg...when in fact Dirk can have an elite offense run through him. He makes everyone better...etc. He just doesn't understand Dirk's value...and he's hell bent on over-rating the shit out of truly one dimensional players like Terry to try and make people think Dirk isn't that good.

Yet, the sad thing is, in his twisted mind he thinks he values overall play...yet his take on Terry is the exact opposite.

So if Terry is better than Gasol...how good must he think Dirk really is? Not only is Dirk a far better scorer than Terry...he's far more clutch...a far better defender/rebounder, and makes his teammates much better...LOL

Yea thats the only thing I have a problem with, so thats all ive been trying to achieve in this thread, Dirk is one of the top 5 PFs of all time,

You guys can debate the whole finals series etc between yourselves, i just want to make sure that Dirk gets the credit he has earnt in his time at Dallas, Terry was def good, but he isn't a franchise player like Dirk, thats the difference.

[Pointguard]

:facepalm

Dude...he's cherry picking games. LOL

This isn't about who was better in wins in the finals...come on now

So what is it about? Wade scored more than Dirk was more efficient and consistent from the field too. Blocked, assisted, and got more steals. When Terry plays well or foul the team follows suit more so than when Dirk plays well or bad. That's an indication of something.



Not to mention it all stems from Dirk. Terry can rarely get his own shot...he relies almost exclusively on the Dirk pick and roll to get looks...
The pick and roll only works if both players can make something out of it. Dirk is the only player who is suppose to gain from the pick and roll?

[DMAVS41]

Yea thats the only thing I have a problem with, so thats all ive been trying to achieve in this thread, Dirk is one of the top 5 PFs of all time,

You guys can debate the whole finals series etc between yourselves, i just want to make sure that Dirk gets the credit he has earnt in his time at Dallas, Terry was def good, but he isn't a franchise player like Dirk, thats the difference.

That's thing. We weren't ever talking about solely the finals...he just shifted the goal posts because he was losing the debate.

It's been about so many other things. You'd never use just 1 series...and even worse...just wins...to determine anything.

It's just facts he's arguing with. The Mavs defense was not great. It was very good overall...and was great at times. Terry was good, but a subpar 2nd option. Those things are really not debatable...

[Black and White]

I think Dirk was something like 27/10/2...can't remember with Terry

But again...that is cherry picking. It's about the entire playoffs. And it's about the impact they each make.

It's not even remotely close.

Please don't fall for his bullshit. Of course the Mavs win when Terry plays well. That's what happens when you give Dirk a legit 2nd option. If Terry just averaged like 21 ppg like every 2nd option on title winning teams do...we honestly might have gone undefeated in the playoffs. That is how good Dirk was/is...give him a reliable 2nd fiddle and you can't stop him. Because you have to double him too often and if his teammates can make open shots and a guy can get the offense through the 10 minutes he's not out there...it's very difficult to beat him.

That's the whole point. Terry played like 85% like a normal championship 2nd option...and we won the title. Give Dirk a normal 2nd fiddle and an average championship defense and he's winning multiple titles...even against great competition. Been saying it for years...it happens...title. End of story.

This here is a good point, because if LeBron stepped up and played like he normally does Miami probably walk out with the title.....

[Legends66NBA7]

Whats Dirk and Terrys full stats over the whole series??

Nowtizki: 26ppg 9.7rpg 2apg 0.7spg 0.7bpg 2.8tpg 41.6%fg 36.8%3pt 97.8%ft in 40.4mpg

Terry: 18ppg 2rpg 3.2apg 1.3spg 1.3tpg 49.4%fg 39.3%3pt 75%ft in 32.6mpg

[DMAVS41]

So what is it about? Wade scored more than Dirk was more efficient and consistent from the field too. Blocked, assisted, and got more steals. When Terry plays well or foul the team follows suit more so than when Dirk plays well or bad. That's an indication of something.


The pick and roll only works if both players can make something out of it. Dirk is the only player who is suppose to gain from the pick and roll?

When did this become about the finals only?

And are you saying Terry was better overall in the finals? Because he wasn't...

But when did this become about solely that?

You jump around so much it's impossible to follow.

[Black and White]

Nowtizki: 26ppg 9.7rpg 2apg 0.7spg 0.7bpg 2.8tpg 41.6%fg 36.8%3pt 97.8%ft

Terry: 18ppg 2rpg 3.2apg 1.3spg 1.3tpg 49.4%fg 39.3%3pt 75%ft

I think that settles it then.

[Pointguard]

But Dirk actually isn't...you just say he is. He's a 26/10/3 player for his career in the playoffs on some of the best overall efficiency...and his teams offense is always great.

He does way more than you give him credit for. The contradiction is with you moron. If you value Terry over Gasol...that means you value the things I claim are important you ****ing moron. Terry is like maybe 40% as good as Dirk..maybe...and you have Terry ranked over a 21/11/4 great all around power forward!!!!
:lol
Didn't I just write that I said it to sucker you into what you said. You can't read. Dallas only needed a consistent, timely scorer. Dallas had no need for a Pau - they had that covered. I made that very clear, Clown.



So obviously you value clutch scoring and efficient offense hugely...way more than I do...because I'd say Gasol is significantly better than terry
And by necessity Karl Malone and KG must be significantly better than Dirk.

[Pointguard]

When did this become about the finals only?

And are you saying Terry was better overall in the finals? Because he wasn't...

But when did this become about solely that?

You jump around so much it's impossible to follow.
Nope I say it everytime I post it. Terry was the more consistent and efficient scorer when they win in the finals. He could score as much as Dirk with 20 less shots. The loses could have been because Dirk was taking too many shots.

[Black and White]

That's thing. We weren't ever talking about solely the finals...he just shifted the goal posts because he was losing the debate.

It's been about so many other things. You'd never use just 1 series...and even worse...just wins...to determine anything.

It's just facts he's arguing with. The Mavs defense was not great. It was very good overall...and was great at times. Terry was good, but a subpar 2nd option. Those things are really not debatable...

Yea i think hes getting a little sidetracked here, its gone way off topic, tbh the thread topic suggests we should be looking at Dirks body of work as a whole rather than just 1 finals series,

Im going to finish with this, Durant is a great player, i like him alot, but he hasn't done anything that so far that will put him over prime Dirk.

Dirk achieved the unthinkable with his team, he won the title in the face of all odds going into the playoffs as the underdogs, went up against the most talented team in the league and got it done in the finals. Dirk has maintained a level of production over the length if his career that most players could not even dream of doing and in doing so has cemented his spot as one of the greatest PFs of all time and most likely the best shooting big man of all time.

Until Durant does any of this, i think this debate is over.

[Pointguard]

Please don't fall for his bullshit. Of course the Mavs win when Terry plays well. That's what happens when you give Dirk a legit 2nd option.
But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.

[Black and White]

But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.

What proof do you have of that?

[juju151111]

But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.
Wtf are you talking about.:wtf: first you say Terry is better then Gasol and know Terry is more important then Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

But they win when Dirk doesn't play well. And they lose when Terry doesn't play well.

This just isn't true. In Dirk's 10 highest scoring games in the 11 playoffs...the Mavs went 8-2. Like...what more do you really want? Because they won a few games with Dirk not playing great...he doesn't matter?

Your problem is that you fail to realize just how much to the table Dirk brings than you give him credit for. If you really think Dirk is just a higher ppg scorer than Terry and that is the only difference...you just don't know basketball.

[DMAVS41]

Nope I say it everytime I post it. Terry was the more consistent and efficient scorer when they win in the finals. He could score as much as Dirk with 20 less shots. The loses could have been because Dirk was taking too many shots.

The losses? Yea...it was Dirk's fault they lost game 3...when Dirk went for 34/11

Game 1? Terry shot 3 of 10 for 12 points...Dirk had 27/8...LOL

In both of those losses Dirk way outplayed Terry...not even close.

If Terry plays well...we win both of those games and the series is probably a sweep or 5 games.

But this is just sidetracked now. Dirk was better than Terry in the finals...but Terry did play great. That has never been disputed...Terry overall in the finals was amazing and deserves a ton of credit.

But that is just a red herring to our previous discussions...

[Pointguard]

What proof do you have of that?
All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

[juju151111]

All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.
What about when Terry played like Garbage.

[DMAVS41]

All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.


Stop it...please stop it.

I'm out...this thread has now deteriorated into shit because of you PG...

Making this about a handful of cherrypicked games...claiming Terry is better than Gasol...and then turning around and saying all around play is what matters. You are a ****ing joke. Go back to thinking the nonsense you do...

[Black and White]

All of the stats I used were from the last three wins and some from all four wins. Terry played bad in the loses. First game kind of freaked him when they put Lebron on him.


Terry shot 25 for 43 a 58% clip for 22 ppg
Dirk shot. 24 for 64 a 37.5% clip for 25.6 ppg

That's only a 3.6 differential with a whopping 20% point difference in percentage!

In the four finals wins:
30/54 555% for Terry
34/86 395% for Dirk

Dirk took 32 more shots to get 4 more baskets.

But that doesn't mean that Dirk played bad in the wins does it? He still played extremely well, so maybe you should rephrase what you said about they win when he plays bad.

[juju151111]

But that doesn't mean that Dirk played bad in the wins does it? He still played extremely well, so maybe you should rephrase what you said about they win when he plays bad.
I am really confused here. So he is saying we should ignore Firms good games because they Loss, but doesn't noticed Terry played like hot garbage those games.

[Black and White]

I am really confused here. So he is saying we should ignore Firms good games because they Loss, but doesn't noticed Terry played like hot garbage those games.

Yea as DMAVS41 said he is only showing the games where Terry played well to attempt to prop up his arguement and ignore that Dirk played well the whole series when Terry was on and off

[Pointguard]

This just isn't true. In Dirk's 10 highest scoring games in the 11 playoffs...the Mavs went 8-2. Like...what more do you really want? Because they won a few games with Dirk not playing great...he doesn't matter?

Your problem is that you fail to realize just how much to the table Dirk brings than you give him credit for. If you really think Dirk is just a higher ppg scorer than Terry and that is the only difference...you just don't know basketball.
I was talking about the finals.

Dirk is great. No question there. One of the best.

But I don't think his offense meant more than their defense though. Magic was the only guy I might say that about in the playoffs . I think in the regular season Dirk pulls it off several times.

And I believe Dirk's experience makes him better than Durant in a tight playoff series. He's great no doubt.

[DMAVS41]

I was talking about the finals.

Dirk is great. No question there. One of the best.

But I don't think his offense meant more than their defense though. Magic was the only guy I might say that about in the playoffs . I think in the regular season Dirk pulls it off several times.

And I believe Dirk's experience makes him better than Durant in a tight playoff series. He's great no doubt.

Like I have said repeatedly...the defense was very important...especially what it allowed us to get on offense after stops...etc.

But while the defense was very good and very important...it was about average at best for a championship winning team. That is what I am grading it on. Just like Terry...he was so good...made so many key shots and big plays...but he's still a subpar 2nd option for a title winning team.

That has been my point from the beginning with you. I'm not denying how important terry and the defense were...i'm just saying they weren't as good as you claim. Literally every title team of this era has a better 2nd guy than Terry other than the 03 Spurs. And has a better defense outside of the 10 Lakers.

[Pointguard]

But that doesn't mean that Dirk played bad in the wins does it? He still played extremely well, so maybe you should rephrase what you said about they win when he plays bad.
My point was that Terry was much more efficient and consistent and that he shouldn't be played down. Timely scoring is a value on every team that wins championships. SA definitely wins it all with that quality.

[DMAVS41]

My point was that Terry was much more efficient and consistent and that he shouldn't be played down. Timely scoring is a value on every team that wins championships. SA definitely wins it all with that quality.

But who has said Terry wasn't great in the finals? I just haven't heard anyone claim that Terry wasn't absolutely key in winning the series against the Heat.

Hell, I've even heard people (wrongfully so) claim he was the fmvp. You act like people are claiming he sucked or something.

If terry played like he did in the finals more consistenlty...the Mavs would probably have 3 titles since 06.

[Pointguard]

Yea as DMAVS41 said he is only showing the games where Terry played well to attempt to prop up his arguement and ignore that Dirk played well the whole series when Terry was on and off
Dirk didn't play well the whole series. In two of the wins he played bad one whole game and most of the other. He had a great playoff run, but I am very specific in what I say.

[Pointguard]

Like I have said repeatedly...the defense was very important...especially what it allowed us to get on offense after stops...etc.

But while the defense was very good and very important...it was about average at best for a championship winning team. That is what I am grading it on. Just like Terry...he was so good...made so many key shots and big plays...but he's still a subpar 2nd option for a title winning team.

That has been my point from the beginning with you. I'm not denying how important terry and the defense were...i'm just saying they weren't as good as you claim. Literally every title team of this era has a better 2nd guy than Terry other than the 03 Spurs. And has a better defense outside of the 10 Lakers.

Richard Hamilton wasn't an adequate two guy to me either. But Rasheed or Tayshaun was a great 5 guy. Tyson or Marion great 5 guys.

[DMAVS41]

Richard Hamilton wasn't an adequate two guy to me either. But Rasheed or Tayshaun was a great 5 guy. Tyson or Marion great 5 guys.

Yea...he wasn't great or anything...but that team was not built around a star so it's hard to judge.

But I'd still take 04 Hamilton over Terry here. He did average 22/5/4 on good efficiency...especially in one of the toughest defensive years ever.

[Pointguard]

Yea...he wasn't great or anything...but that team was not built around a star so it's hard to judge.

But I'd still take 04 Hamilton over Terry here. He did average 22/5/4 on good efficiency...especially in one of the toughest defensive years ever.


Haven't seen a Mavs game this year. Is Dirk still the first option? How many more years do you see him playing and as a first option?

[DMAVS41]

Haven't seen a Mavs game this year. Is Dirk still the first option? How many more years do you see him playing and as a first option?

He and Ellis are about even offensively so far.

Hopefully 0...he can't be a championship first option anymore in my opinion. Well, he could be, but that team would have to absurdly stacked.

[LeBron 06]

Great question

Prime Dirk,but this is very close

[stevieming]

prime dirk for me is the 2011 playoff Dirk...:bowdown: I love watching youtube repeats of that year's playoff run, just so ficking awesome...

clutch as you like and was incredibly dominant.....hit the shots at the right times, step up when it's needed, pass when he needs to and doesn't freeze his team mate out by taking all the shots.....

handled the pressure like nobody's business......

current durant has yet to prove he can do that, even with his stats...

I am a big KD fan....maybe his career will unfold like Dirks....get back to the finals a few years later, he has the game....

[Joyner82reload]

Not considering playoffs, this is unquestionably Durant

Current Durant
29.6 ppg 8.2 rpg 4.9 apg 3.0 TOV 62.7 TS% 29.9 PER .318 WSp48 123 ORTG 99 DRTG 20.4 Win Shares

Peak Dirk
26.6 ppg 9.0 rpg 2.8 apg 1.9 TOV 58.9 TS% 28.1 PER .275 WSp48 123 ORTG 103 DRTG 17.7 Win Shares

Durant's a better scorer, rebounder relative to position, passer, defender.

[DMAVS41]

Not considering playoffs, this is unquestionably Durant

Current Durant
29.6 ppg 8.2 rpg 4.9 apg 3.0 TOV 62.7 TS% 29.9 PER .318 WSp48 123 ORTG 99 DRTG 20.4 Win Shares

Peak Dirk
26.6 ppg 9.0 rpg 2.8 apg 1.9 TOV 58.9 TS% 28.1 PER .275 WSp48 123 ORTG 103 DRTG 17.7 Win Shares

Durant's a better scorer, rebounder relative to position, passer, defender.

I think your post shows that Durant is statistically better...that is all.

Dirk's impact goes beyond stats in a way I don't think Durant's does to date.

It will be interesting to see what Durant does with better help than Dirk ever had in his career. We already saw 12 Durant come up short with that roster...hopefully he has a healthy team this year so we see it.

[Cold soul]

Prime Dirk slightly.

[Milbuck]

Dirk is one of those guy's whose impact you just can't quantify. I'd love to have seen him dominate with the team that drafted him. He'd get a lot more respect around here.

[CarryMeShaq]

Dirk, not even close. Durant can't win,period. Nothing but a taller Iverson.

[oarabbus]

Prime Dirk > Current Durant
Prime Dirk ? Prime Durant

[veilside23]

I think your post shows that Durant is statistically better...that is all.

Dirk's impact goes beyond stats in a way I don't think Durant's does to date.

It will be interesting to see what Durant does with better help than Dirk ever had in his career. We already saw 12 Durant come up short with that roster...hopefully he has a healthy team this year so we see it.


I would pick prime dirk..

but you know whats funny Dmavs41. When there is a player who is a better scorer than dirk you highlight other things he can do as oppose to kg who is not a ben wallace on scoring you failed to his greatness outside of scoring that dirk clearly has over KG. but here now you go stating that as an excuse again that dirk had the one of the worst second option in scoring but their defense even a 50 year old jason kidd played outstanding defense that helped them get the title you mention that but still you weigh things as OFFESE>> DEFENSE because you always say that dirk didnt have a Great 2nd option . Why is it that it sounds like its a workload for dirk if he was such a good scorer. AI didnt have a team mate that scored more than 15 ppg in his playoff run just so you know .

[DMAVS41]

I would pick prime dirk..

but you know whats funny Dmavs41. When there is a player who is a better scorer than dirk you highlight other things he can do as oppose to kg who is not a ben wallace on scoring you failed to his greatness outside of scoring that dirk clearly has over KG. but here now you go stating that as an excuse again that dirk had the one of the worst second option in scoring but their defense even a 50 year old jason kidd played outstanding defense that helped them get the title you mention that but still you weigh things as OFFESE>> DEFENSE because you always say that dirk didnt have a Great 2nd option . Why is it that it sounds like its a workload for dirk if he was such a good scorer. AI didnt have a team mate that scored more than 15 ppg in his playoff run just so you know .

I can't make sense of this post.

[moe94]

I can't make sense of this post.

Your arguments are inconsistent and borderline contradictory and he's getting tired of it. That's what I got from that.

[DMAVS41]

Your arguments are inconsistent and borderline contradictory and he's getting tired of it. That's what I got from that.

How?

[kenny817]

Dirk is one of those guy's whose impact you just can't quantify. I'd love to have seen him dominate with the team that drafted him. He'd get a lot more respect around here.


He's a super hero here in Dallas...can't be more respected anywhere else than he already is here.

[dr.hee]

He's a super hero here in Dallas...can't be more respected anywhere else than he already is here.

When he'll finally retire in 2025, his fadeaway will make for the ugliest athlete statue of all time.

[DMAVS41]

I would pick prime dirk..

but you know whats funny Dmavs41. When there is a player who is a better scorer than dirk you highlight other things he can do as oppose to kg who is not a ben wallace on scoring you failed to his greatness outside of scoring that dirk clearly has over KG. but here now you go stating that as an excuse again that dirk had the one of the worst second option in scoring but their defense even a 50 year old jason kidd played outstanding defense that helped them get the title you mention that but still you weigh things as OFFESE>> DEFENSE because you always say that dirk didnt have a Great 2nd option . Why is it that it sounds like its a workload for dirk if he was such a good scorer. AI didnt have a team mate that scored more than 15 ppg in his playoff run just so you know .

Again, I don't really follow, but I'm getting really sick and tired of the whole "defense" was the reason why the 11 Mavs won.

It simply wasn't. It was a below average defense both in the regular season and playoffs for a championship team.

I've gone over this time and time again. Was the defense really good and really important? Yes...just not nearly as good or as important as the offense. Also, Dirk made a positive impact defensively (which you seem to ignore)

Offense is more valuable than defense at the individual superstar level...that is what I have argued in the past. Team defense vs team offense? I'd lean towards defense actually...although it's based on circumstances and specific teams and years.

But again. People need to really stop the "defense" won it for the 11 Mavs kick.

The Mavs had a 112.9 offensive rating in the 11 playoffs. The next closest team was OKC at 109.5. Which is a pretty big gap between 1 and 2. Then the next best was the Lakers at 107.8....

Defense? Mavs had the 8th best playoff defense. Definitely worse than the top 4...and absolutely nothing special historically for a champion. In fact, most championship teams of like the last 25 years played better defense.

[GoranDragon]

Give me Dirk anyday. He's a proven winner.

Durant lost in the finals against Lebron playing alongside Westbrook and Ibaka while Dirk took out the same Heat team with far lesser talent.

[navy]

Why are people saying Dirk is a proven winner? He has only won one final series. Did you somehow forget Dirk's entire career before that? The lost to Golden State? The countless choke jobs?

Kevin Durant is only 25 years old and he put up better numbers in the finals then Dirk ever did. The only difference is that Lebron decided to actually show up in 2012 instead of the disappearing like in 2011. Dirk is lucky to have that ring. You can be sure if Lebron played like he did in 2012 in the 2011 finals Dirk would still be ringless.

[GoranDragon]

Why are people saying Dirk is a proven winner? He has only won one final series. Did you somehow forget Dirk's entire career before that? The lost to Golden State? The countless choke jobs?

Kevin Durant is only 25 years old and he put up better numbers in the finals then Dirk ever did. The only difference is that Lebron decided to actually show up in 2012 instead of the disappearing like in 2011. Dirk is lucky to have that ring. You can be sure if Lebron played like he did in 2012 in the 2011 finals Dirk would still be ringless.
Repeat: Durant lost in the finals against Lebron playing alongside Westbrook and Ibaka aka Durant choked. The same team Dirk took apart with scrubs.

No one remembers MJ's losses in the first round and ECF against the bad boys. You only count the rings. So yes, Dirk is a proven winner.

[DMAVS41]

Why are people saying Dirk is a proven winner? He has only won one final series. Did you somehow forget Dirk's entire career before that? The lost to Golden State? The countless choke jobs?

Kevin Durant is only 25 years old and he put up better numbers in the finals then Dirk ever did. The only difference is that Lebron decided to actually show up in 2012 instead of the disappearing like in 2011. Dirk is lucky to have that ring. You can be sure if Lebron played like he did in 2012 in the 2011 finals Dirk would still be ringless.

could you please list the countless choke jobs. please. list the countless choke jobs outside of the 07 series.

a series in which Dirk was hiding an injury, his father was having serious surgery during the series, against his old head coach, against a nightmare matchup....with Avery Johnson literally crumbling before even game 1.

please list those countless choke jobs...

Love doing this to the morons...we'll be waiting. You are going to have to get very creative...

[navy]

Repeat: Durant lost in the finals against Lebron playing alongside Westbrook and Ibaka aka Durant choked. The same team Dirk took apart with scrubs.

No one remembers MJ's losses in the first round and ECF against the bad boys. You only count the rings. So yes, Dirk is a proven winner.
Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in the Finals. If Dirk won with scrubs then what did the Heat have outside of Wade?

[DMAVS41]

Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in the Finals. If Dirk won with scrubs then what did the Heat have outside of Wade?

list the countless choke jobs please...

[GoranDragon]

Jason Terry outplayed Lebron in the Finals. If Dirk won with scrubs then what did the Heat have outside of Wade?
Tell me you're not implying the Heat isn't stacked as sh1t.:eek:

If I recall, Dallas was the underdog of that series while people were 50/50 on Durant vs Lebron. We all know what happened, Dirk overcame the odds and Durant fall short.

So prime Dirk vs current Durant isn't even an argument, prime Dirk would murk prime Durant even.

[navy]

Tell me you're not implying the Heat isn't stacked as sh1t.:eek:

If I recall, Dallas was the underdog of that series while people were 50/50 on Durant vs Lebron. We all know what happened, Dirk overcame the odds and Durant fall short.

So prime Dirk vs current Durant isn't even an argument, prime Dirk would murk prime Durant even.
No. Use context clues and your head. You claimed Dirk won the finals playing with scrubs. If Jason Terry is a scrub then Lebron was worse then a scrub in that series because Jason Terry outplayed Lebron.

Dirk's only ring came from the biggest chokejob from in modern history. That is not a proven winner. He has only won once. Durant had better numbers in the finals then Dirk did, the only difference is Lebron actually showed up for that one.




and lol at you bringing up coaches and family to justify that choke job. :facepalm

Remember the 2006 finals when everyone was saying it was rigged to make the Heat win? You know what was funny about that series? The paid refs gave dirk a bailout call in game 3 and go up 3-0. And he choked the tying freethrow.
0:09 Dallas full timeout
0:03 95-97 Udonis Haslem shooting foul (Dirk Nowitzki draws the foul)
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 96-97
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki misses free throw 2 of 2 96-97

A 90% freethrow shooter? :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

No. Use context clues and your head. You claimed Dirk won the finals playing with scrubs. If Jason Terry is a scrub then Lebron was worse then a scrub in that series because Jason Terry outplayed Lebron.

Dirk's only ring came from the biggest chokejob from in modern history. That is not a proven winner. He has only won once. Durant had better numbers in the finals then Dirk did, the only difference is Lebron actually showed up for that one.




and lol at you bringing up coaches and family to justify that choke job. :facepalm

Remember the 2006 finals when everyone was saying it was rigged to make the Heat win? You know what was funny about that series? The paid refs gave dirk a bailout call in game 3 and go up 3-0. And he choked the tying freethrow.
0:09 Dallas full timeout
0:03 95-97 Udonis Haslem shooting foul (Dirk Nowitzki draws the foul)
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 96-97
0:03 Dirk Nowitzki misses free throw 2 of 2 96-97

A 90% freethrow shooter? :biggums:

So missing a free throw is a countless choke job? You could do the same for every single player in history.

Family? Yes...that series is a total anomaly...and there were circumstances both on and off the court that led to it. None of that would matter if Dirk had played like that multiple times in his career. But he didn't...it was a total fluke. He faced his old coach and a team that played a style horrible for the 07 Mavs, Avery Johnson lost his mind, Dirk was not himself the last month of the year, and he was worried he might lose his father during the ****ing series...LOL. Yea...lets ignore all that and pretend like it was just some normal series. Not to mention how much better the Warriors were than their actual record as well.

But that is besides the point. Where are the countless choke jobs? Don't run and hide...

Dirk missed the free throw in that game...yet he made a shot over Shaq in game 5 with 9 seconds left to go up 1. Played great in game 6 while it was Terry that choked.

And it's really hard to call anything in 06 negative because the Mavs never should have gotten out of the 2nd round. They were road dogs playing the Spurs at the height of their powers. So why not bring that up? That Dirk had 37/15 in a road game 7 in SA and made the game saving 3 point play to send the game to OT.

So...so far we have. Dirk missing a ft in the finals in 06...a year in which he was a road underdog to get out of the 2nd round. And the 07 series (which was awful for sure) under anomaly type circumstances.

You really consider that countless? LOL

You just bought into the BS narrative about Dirk. Did you know that the Mavs have actually over-achieved in the playoffs more often than underachieving? That the only two times the Mavs didn't advance farther in the playoffs than expected was 07 and 10. And in 10 they lost to a Spurs team absolutely no worse than the Mavs in any way...a series in which Dirk averaged 27/8/3 64.3% TS. Every other year the Mavs either upset a team to advance farther than they should have...or lost as an underdog.

On your criteria, a guy like Larry Bird is an absolute joke...

[navy]

So missing a free throw is a countless choke job? You could do the same for every single player in history.

Family? Yes...that series is a total anomaly...and there were circumstances both on and off the court that led to it.

Dirk missed the free throw in that game...yet he made a shot over Shaq in game 5 with 9 seconds left to go up 1. Played great in game 6 while it was Terry that choked.

And it's really hard to call anything in 06 negative because the Mavs never should have gotten out of the 2nd round. They were road dogs playing the Spurs at the height of their powers. So why not bring that up? That Dirk had 37/15 in a road game 7 in SA and made the game saving 3 point play to send the game to OT.

So...so far we have. Dirk missing a ft in the finals in 06...a year in which he was a road underdog to get out of the 2nd round. And the 07 series (which was awful for sure) under anomaly type circumstances.

You really consider that countless? LOL

Did the Spurs choke game 6 of the 2013 finals? Hell yes.

Didnt Dirk foul Wade late in Game 5? It was a legitimate call as well. As i know people will say that series was rigged.

Ill concede on the "countless' adjective. But to sit here any say Dirk is a proven winner after 1 win out of 10ish playoffs appearance is dumb.

[DMAVS41]

Did the Spurs choke game 6 of the 2013 finals? Hell yes.

Didnt Dirk foul Wade late in Game 5? It was a legitimate call as well. As i know people will say that series was rigged.


Ill concede on the "countless' adjective. But to sit here any say Dirk is a proven winner after 1 win out of 10ish playoffs appearance is dumb.

I was addressing your "countless"...which you have rightfully retreated from because you talked out of your ass...LOL

Yes, Wade was fouled and I don't think the series was rigged. I think it was just horrible reffing and terrible rules. Wade was fouled...after he ran over half the team and was impossible to guard given the joke rules.

Proven winner? Well, I'd say yes. 11 straight 50 win seasons (only Russell, Magic/Kareem, and Duncan have done this) with totally different coaches and rosters. Had his team on a 50 win pace last year when he played. Has his team on a similar pace this year. Take a look at what Kevin Love is doing in his prime with a roster that is actually probably slightly better than the current Mavs. Yes...Dirk is a winner...his impact goes beyond his already great numbers...and his ability to consistently win with all different kinds of rosters is evidence of that.

Over-achieved more in the playoffs than his teams under-achieved.

One of the best elimination game players ever. Undefeated in game 7's (5-0)

Made the finals twice and the WCF three times. Only team other than the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and Duncan Spurs to make the finals from 99 through 11.

Won a title without an all-star or all-nba player (very rare historically)

One of the best win percentages of his era despite all the other star players playing with way more help other than KG.

How does that not add up to being a "winner"??????

[Random_Guy]

bump, was going to at the end of the season but forgot about it.
shit is much more interesting after kd's phenomenal season, but his underwhelming performance sorta sticks out. kd still has the chance to turn it around doe, especially with game 4 up in 30 min.