The GOAT List: 2014 Edition [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 10:26 AM

The GOAT List:
Fifth Anniversary Edition

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It's the off-season and this years list is as ready as it's going to be. There are a few new editions, the Class of 2009, Blake Griffin, Steph Curry, James Harden etc. are now eligible for the list. I spent most of the past year researching the 1970's so there are significant changes in my views on some of those players. As always the toughest challenge is to find a way to rank the players as objectively as possible without devaluing the things I think make a great basketball player.

For the third consecutive year I am relying heavily on a tier system, the tier system has evolved as well. As of this moment I have 25 tiers of 10 or more players ranging from the all-time greats to role players. For this abridged version of the project I'll be focusing on the top 15 tiers, which covers a little over the top 200 players. I intend to move swiftly through the first 100 plus. Once I get to the top 100 I'll spend a little more time on each player, but I don't anticipate being as elaborate as I was on the 2009 Edition. Most of the stats and background information I posted back then is now very accessible. My focus this time will be on demonstrating the aspects of a players career/game/resume that have led to the ranking I've assigned them.

Please use this list as an opportunity to discuss and learn about these players and the portion of Basketball history each has helped shape as you like. Understand that rankings, no matter my or anyone else's efforts are still largely subjective and perhaps more important, entirely fluid. Any opinion worth hearing is one that has been shaped over time and likely has changed quite a bit. With that spirit in mind I am constantly changing my list and I value all of your feedback as a way of helping me better understand perspective I may not have considered or fully valued. Thanks and as always, enjoy.
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MISSION STATEMENT

I believe in merit, I believe in motivation and I believe in competition. Greatness thusly, should be defined by achievement not by potential. I don't see the point of wondering how Mikan would do in the 1960's NBA. That was never something Mikan was going to have to deal with. To judge/rate/rank him based on a subjective evaluation of probable performance in an impossible hypothetical situation is not something I am going to do.

There is one common bond between all eras of basketball. Try and win the game by putting the ball in your opponents basket and defending your own basket. As the eras changed so did the rules, styles, philosophies, motives, everything surrounding that general objective. None of the changes are immediate, all are subtle and progressive. Players, coaches, organizations and fans all adjust over time at a different pace. The one's who set the pace typically excel regardless of the speed of the pack.

It's only important to be ahead of your time, not to be timeless. The second one is great for a legacy, but doesn't help you a bit in the moment.

The greatest handicap for a player of any given era when it comes to this list is information. Too much or too little can have a huge impact on how much a player is over or under rated. To consider any other factor beyond their control only serves to greater confuse the issue. For me to look at players from different eras there can be no bonus or penalty for when the player played. That is completely out of their control and therefore irrelevant when evaluating them.

That is not to say that all Championships, all awards etc. are equal. The subjective element of evaluating a basketball player is in considering the significance of what did happen. There are breaks good/bad as a part of the game, but that's where it stops. Example: McHale's foot injury in 1987 was a bad break for the Celtics. (literally) That's it. There is no, "if McHale doesn't get hurt the Celtics beat the Lakers and then Bird and Magic each have four rings..." etc etc etc.

You don't get to diminish a team or players actual achievement(s) with a subjective conclusion to a hypothetical.

Finally there is an element of humility necessarily for me to take myself seriously. You read a lot of people's opinions when you study the game like those of us who discuss these topics do. Sometimes you agree, sometimes you disagree, but it's important to consider all of them. I can't possibly always be right, but I have to think I am (until I really don't) or I can't possibly hope for my opinions to evolve. So with this in mind I generally trust the consensus or popular opinion until an argument otherwise sways me. (Happens a lot) I find that going about it the other way, I.E. trusting your eyes, instincts, hunch, will often lead to searching for validation more than information.
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GOAT List Index: Part One

#212 - Stephen Curry - page one
#211 - Stephon Marbury - page one
#210 - Vin Baker - page one
#209 - Derrick Coleman - page one
#208 - Kevin Love - page two
#207 - LaMarcus Aldridge - page two
#206 - Otis Birdsong - page two
#205 - Jerry Stackhouse - page two
#204 - Dan Roundfield - page two
#203 - Terry Cummings - page two
#202 - Warren Jabali - page two
#201 - Jimmy Jones - page two
#200 - Carlos Boozer - page three
#199 - Antoine Walker - page three

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#198 - Dick McGuire - page three
#197 - Bill Bridges - page three
#196 - Larry Nance - page four
#195 - Rudy LaRusso - page four
#194 - Louie Dampier - page four
#193 - Michael Finley - page four
#192 - Red Kerr - page four
#191 - Paul Silas - page four
#190 - Charlie Scott - page four
#189 - Mark Aguirre - page four
#188 - Larry Kenon - page four
#187 - Shawn Marion - page four

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#186 - Jerry Sloan - page five
#185 - Norm Van Lier - page five
#184 - Richard Hamilton - page five
#183 - Ron Artest - page five
#182 - Paul Seymour - page five
#181 - Bobby Wanzer - page five
#180 - Clyde Lovellette - page five
#179 - Tom Gola - page five
#178 - Larry Foust - page five
#177 - Harry Gallatin - page five
#176 - Rolando Blackman - page five
#175 - Buck Williams - page five
#174 - Bailey Howell - page five

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#173 - Micheal Ray Richardson - page five
#172 - Doug Collins - page five
#171 - Peja Stojakovic - page six
#170 - Phil Smith - page six
#169 - Gene Shue - page six
#168 - Larry Johnson - page six
#167 - Truck Robinson - page six
#166 - Phil Chenier - page six
#165 - Gilbert Arenas - page six
#164 - James Harden - page six
#163 - Joakim Noah - page six
#162 - Blake Griffin - page six
#161 - Brad Daugherty - page six
#160 - Alex Groza - page six

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#159 - Joe Johnson - page seven
#158 - Baron Davis - page seven
#157 - Latrell Sprewell - page eight
#156 - Andrew Toney - page eight
#155 - Arnie Risen - page eight
#154 - Rajon Rondo - page eight
#153 - Ralph Sampson - page nine
#152 - Sam Cassell - page nine
#151 - Gus Williams - page nine
#150 - Willie Wise - page ten
#149 - Roger Brown - page ten

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G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 10:27 AM

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#148 Zach Randolph - page ten
#147 Elton Brand - page ten
#146 Richie Guerin - page ten
#145 Glen Rice - page ten
#144 Deron Williams - page eleven
#143 Bob Love - page eleven
#142 Jack Twyman - page twelve
#141 Lou Hudson - page twelve
#140 Tom Chambers - page twelve
#139 Walter Davis - page twelve
#138 Russell Westbrook - page twelve

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#137 Horace Grant - page twelve
#136 Ed Macauley - page twelve
#135 Norm Nixon - page thirteen
#134 Maurice Cheeks - page thirteen
#133 Chet Walker - page thirteen
#132 Rasheed Wallace - page fourteen
#131 Bobby Jones - page fourteen
#130 Dan Issel - page fourteen
#129 Jack Sikma - page fourteen
#128 Bill Laimbeer - page fourteen
#127 Vern Mikkelsen - page sixteen
#126 Slater Martin - page sixteen
#125 Chris Bosh - page sixteen

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#124 George Yardley - page seventeen
#123 Neil Johnston - page seventeen
#122 Max Zaslofsky - page seventeen
#121 Walt Bellamy - page seventeen
#120 Zelmo Beaty - page eighteen
#119 Mitch Richmond - page eighteen
#118 Dikembe Mutombo - page nineteen
#117 Vince Carter - page nineteen
#116 Shawn Kemp - page nineteen

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G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 10:28 AM

Saved for index and Updates

MP.Trey

07-15-2014, 12:04 PM

G.O.A.T's on fire with these lists and shit. :applause:

RRR3

07-15-2014, 12:07 PM

Super cute goat picture in OP :applause:

I miss my goat :cry:

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 12:23 PM

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/espnapi_nba_u_curry_kh_576x324_wmain.jpg
#212 Wardell Stephen Curry II
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 5 (4)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Middle of the Pack Team
Prime Averages: 21-4-7-2 on 47/44/90

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-One of the up and coming stars in today's games and a player so smooth he's already making a case as one of the top shooters of all-time. This second generation star is the biggest basketball star in the Bay Area since Run TMC and the Warriors are contenders for the first time in even longer. Combining solid ball handling and an unselfish nature with that deadly range and lightning quick release, plus the ability to play on or off the ball, Curry is one of the best offensive guards of his generation. After a coming out party in the 2013 playoffs, the 2013-14 season saw Curry make his first all-star team, garner All-NBA second team honors and finish sixth in the MVP voting. As Golden State continues their commitment to winning, Curry figures to be a star on the rise for years to come.

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http://www.emptythebench.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/stephmarburynyk.jpg
#211 Stephon Xavier Marbury
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (8)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 21-3-8-1 on 43/33/78

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-A part of the famous 1996 draft class, Starbury seemed headed for greatness. Beginning his career teamed with Kevin Garnett in Minnesota, the Timberwolves seemed to have their Stockton/Malone for the next generation. However the spotlight wasn't big enough for both and Marbury forced his way out. From there it was a vagabonds journey of mixed success. From 1999 to 2004 he played for four teams, Minnesota, New Jersey, Phoenix and New York. He made all-star and all-NBA teams at the middle two, but almost never seen the playoffs. In total, five first round defeats are the extent of his playoff resume, never getting further than a sixth game. Still with multiple all-star and all-NBA seasons and seven seasons of 20 and 8 production, it's hard to forget how good he was, even if all we seem to remember is how good we all thought he could have been.

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ArbitraryWater

07-15-2014, 12:29 PM

OP is G.O.A.T

Wavves

07-15-2014, 12:40 PM

Awesome to see this back again. I loved reading the last one!

Great work already, looking forward to more as it comes!

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 01:26 PM

http://theseattlesalmon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/vin-baker.jpg
#210 Vincent Lamont Baker
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (4)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on mostly below average teams
Prime Averages: 20-10-3-1 on 49/63

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-Hartford University is not a place known for producing Basketball stars so when the Milwaukee Bucks selected him 8th overall in the 1993 draft ahead of other more well known forwards including George Lynch who had just led North Carolina to a National Championship, fans were underwhelmed to say the least. But it didn't take long for Vin to Win them over as the 6'11" 260 pound old school big man was an all-star by his second season and a 20/10 guy shortly after. However after four losing seasons with the Bucks, Baker was shipped as part of a three team trade that landed him in Seattle, Shawn Kemp in Cleveland and Terrell Brandon in Milwaukee. With the Sonics core mostly intact from their 1996 finals appearance, the Baker for Kemp swap brought stability and they won 61 games. But in the playoffs they fell behind 2-1 to a young and hungry Minnesota, won that series and then were smashed by the Lakers. Baker and the Sonics were all down hill from there. Injuries and a lack of conditioning returning to the lockout shortened 1999 season proved to be the end of Baker's run as an all-star. He played seven more seasons and retired in 2006.

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http://www.realclearsports.com/images/wysiwyg_images/wrongfirstnbapicks/1-derrick-coleman.jpg
#209 Derrick D. Coleman
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): Lead Player/2nd-3rd option on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 19-10-3-2 on 45/29/77

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-Back when Detroit used to roll out a ton of NBA talent, Derrick Coleman was among the best. Coming out of Syracuse as the #1 overall pick, D.C. was expected to take the New Jersey Nets to new heights. He clearly had the talent and four his first four seasons he averaged 20/10. But there was another side of him. He was whiny, he was lazy, he refused to be a leader and set a bad example, as a result his teams underachieved and his career feel off a cliff after he left New Jersey. The talent was still there, but the body was breaking down little by little. The shame of it all is he played on some talented teams too, but unfortunate circumstances or just Coleman's bad attitude spoiled them all. In New Jersey he played with Drazen Petrovic and Kenny Anderson, but Petrovic was killed tragically in 1993 and Anderson followed Coleman's script. In Philadelphia the young back court of Allen Iverson and Jerry Stackhouse was promising, but the team never got off the ground as injuries and a lack of chemistry forced that group to be broken up. His Hornet days he was 40 pounds too heavy, in his second stint with Philly three years too old. It just never came together for Coleman, like many of his generation.

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ArbitraryWater

07-15-2014, 01:44 PM

I already think Curry is too low :lol

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 01:51 PM

I already think Curry is too low :lol
I think he's too high.

BuffaloBill

07-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Who the **** is Wardell Stephen Curry II

His name Steph Curry

magnax1

07-15-2014, 03:09 PM

Who the **** is Wardell Stephen Curry II

His name Steph Curry
I prefer dell curry just cus it ****s with people.
This list is gonna be looonnnnngggg

BuffaloBill

07-15-2014, 03:11 PM

I prefer dell curry just cus it ****s with people.
This list is gonna be looonnnnngggg

My mind just got blown

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 03:42 PM

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 03:52 PM

#210 Vincent Lamont Baker
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (4)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on mostly below average teams
Prime Averages: 20-10-3-1 on 49/63

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-Hartford University is not a place known for producing Basketball stars so when the Milwaukee Bucks selected him 8th overall in the 1993 draft ahead of other more well known forwards including George Lynch who had just led North Carolina to a National Championship, fans were underwhelmed to say the least. But it didn't take long for Vin to Win them over as the 6'11" 260 pound old school big man was an all-star by his second season and a 20/10 guy shortly after. However after four losing seasons with the Bucks, Baker was shipped as part of a three team trade that landed him in Seattle, Shawn Kemp in Cleveland and Terrell Brandon in Milwaukee. With the Sonics core mostly intact from their 1996 finals appearance, the Baker for Kemp swap brought stability and they won 61 games. But in the playoffs they fell behind 2-1 to a young and hungry Minnesota, won that series and then were smashed by the Lakers. Baker and the Sonics were all down hill from there. Injuries and a lack of conditioning returning to the lockout shortened 1999 season proved to be the end of Baker's run as an all-star. He played seven more seasons and retired in 2006.

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#209 Derrick D. Coleman
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): Lead Player/2nd-3rd option on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 19-10-3-2 on 45/29/77

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-Back when Detroit used to roll out a ton of NBA talent, Derrick Coleman was among the best. Coming out of Syracuse as the #1 overall pick, D.C. was expected to take the New Jersey Nets to new heights. He clearly had the talent and four his first four seasons he averaged 20/10. But there was another side of him. He was whiny, he was lazy, he refused to be a leader and set a bad example, as a result his teams underachieved and his career feel off a cliff after he left New Jersey. The talent was still there, but the body was breaking down little by little. The shame of it all is he played on some talented teams too, but unfortunate circumstances or just Coleman's bad attitude spoiled them all. In New Jersey he played with Drazen Petrovic and Kenny Anderson, but Petrovic was killed tragically in 1993 and Anderson followed Coleman's script. In Philadelphia the young back court of Allen Iverson and Jerry Stackhouse was promising, but the team never got off the ground as injuries and a lack of chemistry forced that group to be broken up. His Hornet days he was 40 pounds too heavy, in his second stint with Philly three years too old. It just never came together for Coleman, like many of his generation.

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The other promising forward from that era, (or 2 really) were Larry Johnson and Danny Manning. There problems were due to injury unlike Vin and DC.

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 05:20 PM

http://breakthehuddle.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/kevin-love.jpg
#208 Kevin Wesley Love
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 6 (3)
Primary Role: Lead Player on Non-Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 24-13-3-1-1 on 46/38/83

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-Considered by many to be the best power forward in the league today, this second generation star and Nephew of a Beach Boy, Kevin Love, has had an up and down first six years in the league. On the one hand he is better than most expected. An elite rebounder, a top-notch scorer from inside and out, capable of playing the five or a stretch four position. He's already posted numbers that rival the best statistical seasons of some all-time great power forwards. On the hand other injuries and competing in a ultra-tough Western Conference with a limited roster has kept him from reaching the postseason so far. Still Love's progression is promising. He has become a better defender, extended his range and dramatically reshaped his body in a half a decade's time. With one season left on his contract in Minnesota his future destination is a major topic in the NBA right now. While it's hard to tell at this point if he has what it takes to lead a Championship team, he certainly seems fit to help almost any team contend from a 2nd/3rd option role. Where ever he ends up he's sure to start climbing this list quickly and soon.

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http://dvzyjrqhqfwpz.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Optimized-lamarcusaldridge.jpg
#207 LaMarcus Nurae Aldridge
Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 8 (7)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 20-8-2-1-1 on 49/80

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-It's hard to believe LaMarcus Aldridge has been in the league for eight years. This past season was for him, like so many other NBA stars over the past two seasons, a breakout year. He set career highs in points, rebounds and assists per game and Portland advanced past the first round for the first time since Shaq and Kobe ripped their heart out in the 2000 Western Conference Finals. Aldridge was in middle school then. He took on a bigger role, both in terms of his play and what he had to say: "I realized that I had to be more vocal, more demanding -- and that I have to still do that more, I think. I have a tendency to roll with the punches. But this year, especially with things getting rougher, I call my own play. I think that's the start of me being more of the leader. I can still shoot it, but if they double-team me, I can still make the right pass and we can score." At 6'11" with tons of length and a solid jump shot, Aldridge is the modern eras answer to Elvin Hayes without all the distraction. He's now made three straight all-star teams in the highly competitive Western Conference and this season secured his second All-NBA nod and his first top ten MVP vote. With Portland on the rise and this eight year veteran still only 28 years old, more good things seem to be in store.

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ArbitraryWater

07-15-2014, 05:21 PM

I don't think Aldridge is better than Love... I think Love on a decent team could be top 100 all time.. Which he might be this season

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 05:42 PM

I don't think I'd put LA over Vin or DC. Love either. That means Boozer is close right, and I don't think Boozer is above VB and DC either ...

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 07:18 PM

Thanks for following the thread so far, I'm sure there is going to be lots of guys who you might rank higher or lower than I did, and while you can respond how ever you'd like, I'd prefer to hear your reasons than just know you disagree. I'll try to address these specific ones below to help you get a sense for my logic here.

I don't think Aldridge is better than Love... I think Love on a decent team could be top 100 all time.. Which he might be this season

I think Love is better to, but I am evaluating them as if their careers ended today and considering Aldridge has a playoff series win where he played very well as his teams best player, twice as many prime seasons and comparable accolades and stats.

Remember one of my lines from the mission statement. Greatness will be measured by achievement, not potential.

I don't think I'd put LA over Vin or DC. Love either. That means Boozer is close right, and I don't think Boozer is above VB and DC either ...

Here's the thing about Vin and Baker versus Aldridge and Love as I spent a good amount of time on this comparison last week preparing to add the new players to the list and update the active player resumes.

Both Baker and Coleman were probably a little better out of the shoot than Aldridge, but they were older too. From the age of 23 on, Aldridge puts up as good or better numbers than both and both DC and Vin had dropped of considerably after four seasons. Aldridge already has more healthy quality seasons than either (I was generous to give DC seven as two of those he played like 50 games in). Aldridge has already matched both with 2 all-nba seasons and has one fewer AS game than Baker, 2 more than DC (who was hurt by his reputation with coaches in that regard)

Additionally the playoff thing with Aldridge this year. That's what gave him the nod. Coleman never won a playoff series in his prime. Baker won one with Seattle, but he played poorly and both Payton and Schrempf were more productive.

As for Boozer, I'll cover that when I get to him later this week or next week. Mostly he has benefited from playing on good teams which has allowed me to move him up a few tiers, I know what you mean though. At first glance he's not a significantly better player by any means.

Try to separate potential from achievements though. For all the skill they had neither Baker nor Coleman ever did anything truly significant in the NBA.

Thanks for your opinions as always.

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 07:40 PM

Thanks for following the thread so far, I'm sure there is going to be lots of guys who you might rank higher or lower than I did, and while you can respond how ever you'd like, I'd prefer to hear your reasons than just know you disagree. I'll try to address these specific ones below to help you get a sense for my logic here.

I think Love is better to, but I am evaluating them as if their careers ended today and considering Aldridge has a playoff series win where he played very well as his teams best player, twice as many prime seasons and comparable accolades and stats.

Remember one of my lines from the mission statement. Greatness will be measured by achievement, not potential.

Here's the thing about Vin and Baker versus Aldridge and Love as I spent a good amount of time on this comparison last week preparing to add the new players to the list and update the active player resumes.

Both Baker and Coleman were probably a little better out of the shoot than Aldridge, but they were older too. From the age of 23 on, Aldridge puts up as good or better numbers than both and both DC and Vin had dropped of considerably after four seasons. Aldridge already has more healthy quality seasons than either (I was generous to give DC seven as two of those he played like 50 games in). Aldridge has already matched both with 2 all-nba seasons and has one fewer AS game than Baker, 2 more than DC (who was hurt by his reputation with coaches in that regard)

Additionally the playoff thing with Aldridge this year. That's what gave him the nod. Coleman never won a playoff series in his prime. Baker won one with Seattle, but he played poorly and both Payton and Schrempf were more productive.

As for Boozer, I'll cover that when I get to him later this week or next week. Mostly he has benefited from playing on good teams which has allowed me to move him up a few tiers, I know what you mean though. At first glance he's not a significantly better player by any means.

Try to separate potential from achievements though. For all the skill they had neither Baker nor Coleman ever did anything truly significant in the NBA.

Thanks for your opinions as always.
I do think they with success (LA) or just having flat out better numbers (Love) they will pass them eventually. I'd actually give LA one more season like last season to put him over Vin and DC. IF LA decided to retire today, I don't know if his career is better then Vin and DC though they had very disappointing careers.

Boozer at his best has never been better than the four bigs you have listed so far. And of the forward bigs this era (Amare, Bosh, Love, LA, Pau, Z-Bo) I think Boozer was the worse. Tom Gugliotta's level.

I should have left this for when Boozer is listed.

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 08:10 PM

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/wp-content/slideshow/2014/02/the-5-greatest-brooklyn-nets-to-ever-play-in-the-nba-all-star-game/medium/NBA-Photo-Library-Getty-Images-Otis-Birdsong.jpg
#206 Otis Lee Birdsong

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (6)
Primary Role(s): Go-to-Guy on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 23-3-3-1 on 51/66

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-Most people don't even know who Otis Birdsong is. Well if you don't and you want to learn to shoot, watch Otis Birdsong. Birdsong had a silky smooth jumper than he could get off from so many angles. One of the old school masters of the mid-range, Birdsong used bank shots, floaters and leaners to score 20-25 points per game through the NBA transitional period of the late 70's and early 80's. Joining the Kansas City Kings in 1977, one year after the ABA merger, Birdsong would blossom into a top-notch scorer in his second season averaging 22 points per game and leading the Kings along with rookie of the year Phil Ford and sharpshooter Scott Wedman to their first of three straight playoff appearances. It was consistency that allowed Birdsong to make his mark, said teammate Sam Lacey "Otis was automatic, he could score twenty from the bench." In 1981 Otis had his best season averaging 25 points per game and the Kings had a golden opportunity to make it to the NBA Finals as the West had become wide open with upsets of the Lakers and Spurs, the West's two top teams coming at the hands of the 40-42 Rockets. The Kings and Rockets met in the Western Conference Finals, but injuries kept Birdsong out and the Kings run ended. That off-season Birdsong was traded to the Nets for Cliff Robinson and became the first $1 million guard in NBA history. The Kings fell out of the playoff picture while Birdsong and the Nets, under Larry Brown went back to the postseason. After recovering from injuries in '82, Birdsong would average 18 per game for the Nets over four more seasons while topping 50% from the field each year. He never got another shot at the finals, but those who remember him know he was the guy you wanted taking the final shot. As he liked to say, "there are only three certanties in life, death, taxes and my jump shot."

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http://www.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/IFWT_stackhouse.jpg
#205 Jerry Darnell Stackhouse

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 18 (6)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 23-4-5-1 on 41/31/84

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-From his days at Chapel Hill alongside Rasheed Wallace, Jerry Stackhouse could flat out score. And even if his game sometimes lacked a certain aesthetic quality, he poured his heart and his soul into always. Things got off to a rough start as the Sixers, who drafted him 3rd overall in 1995 went 40-124 in his first two seasons. After another subpar start in 1997-98, he was traded to the Pistons for Theo Ratliff and moved from playing alongside Allen Iverson (a rising star with a reputation for being selfish) to Grant Hill (a rising star with the opposite reputation). Both teams got better as Stackhouse became the Pistons sixth made mentoring under Joe Dumars in his final two seasons. In 2000, with Dumars moving to the front office and Hill to Orlando, it was Jerry's team now. He averaged 30 a game in 2000-01 but the Pistons were poor. The next year Detroit brought in Rick Carlisle as coach and Detroit turned it around with Stackhouse now taking fewer shots on and off the court. After 50 wins, a division title and a playoff series win though, Detroit moved Stack to Washington where he played alongside Michael Jordan. After two disappointing seasons there, Stackhouse and Rick Carlisle were reunited in Dallas where Jerry reprised his sixth man role and went to the NBA finals. In total he made tow all-star appearances averaged 20 or more in five seasons for three different teams and left the NBA with a reputation as a great teammate and a true professional.

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DatAsh

07-15-2014, 08:12 PM

Awesome, I look forward to this thread and the discussions that follow.

magnax1

07-15-2014, 08:15 PM

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 08:22 PM

I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.
I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 08:24 PM

I dont think stackhouse deserves the same sort of recognition as Aldridge or love, but I was never fond of him. Always seemed like an empty stats guy and teams never seemed worse off without him. I think he found his ideal role in dallas.

I may be biased, but I watched him transform himself into this poor mans Jordan from 2001 to 2002 in Detroit. I don't mean to say he was anything like a player on MJ's level, just that he stopped looking for his shots early, got other guys involved, played great defense and then took (and made) the clutch shots. He was the go-to-guy for a 50-win division champion that added Cliff Robinson froma 30-win squad the year before.

Love and Aldridge are better players, but if their careers ended today, I think Stackhouse has done just as much.

Remember Love has never been to the playoffs, we all agree barring an injury he is on his way to a much better career than the other guys in this section, but are his number and accolades any better than say Sidney Wicks right now.

Time will really fix all these issues with modern players being ranked. Thanks for your always critical and constructive input magnax.

I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.

I just switched them today, something about the Kings making that '81 playoff run without him just runs me the wrong way. Plus they got better when Ford arrived, not when he did, not saying Ford is better, but he was more respected by people around the sport from what I can gather. Whereas Stackhouse gets nothing but praise from teammates Carlisle and Dumars for his adaptation in 2002.

You have the same problem as me I think, we love the players from our era and before.

A reminder to all of you too to keep an eye on the tiers. So far everyone's in the same tier, so they can be swapped about every day pretty much.

magnax1

07-15-2014, 08:28 PM

I don't think he was an empty stats guy (would you say the same thing about Love who you mentioned?) I think Ricky Davis is an empty stats player. Stackhouse was just never in the right place at the right time. He leaves Detroit and in come Billups, Rasheed, they draft Prince. He leaves Washington and in comes Arenas, Jamison, Hughes (later Butler.)

I'd switch him and Birdsong though.
Yeah. Id definitely say Love has inflated stats at least. Hes not up there with moses malone or anything like his stats suggest and probably wasnt ever the best PF in the league. Still Id rather have him than stackhouse who just put up a volumous amount of points on awful shooting generally. I mean, you could say he left detroit at the wrong time or that he was traded for a guy who looks worse on paper who was actually a lot better.
Like I said hes valuable as a sixth man, but I dont think he was all star caliber like love or aldridge.

L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 08:54 PM

I may be biased, but I watched him transform himself into this poor mans Jordan from 2001 to 2002 in Detroit. I don't mean to say he was anything like a player on MJ's level, just that he stopped looking for his shots early, got other guys involved, played great defense and then took (and made) the clutch shots. He was the go-to-guy for a 50-win division champion that added Cliff Robinson froma 30-win squad the year before.

Love and Aldridge are better players, but if their careers ended today, I think Stackhouse has done just as much.

Remember Love has never been to the playoffs, we all agree barring an injury he is on his way to a much better career than the other guys in this section, but are his number and accolades any better than say Sidney Wicks right now.

Time will really fix all these issues with modern players being ranked. Thanks for your always critical and constructive input magnax.

I just switched them today, something about the Kings making that '81 playoff run without him just runs me the wrong way. Plus they got better when Ford arrived, not when he did, not saying Ford is better, but he was more respected by people around the sport from what I can gather. Whereas Stackhouse gets nothing but praise from teammates Carlisle and Dumars for his adaptation in 2002.

You have the same problem as me I think, we love the players from our era and before.

A reminder to all of you too to keep an eye on the tiers. So far everyone's in the same tier, so they can be swapped about every day pretty much.
I don't know if you can judge that 81' run too much. It was basically a fluke. For the Rockets also. Who knows how it plays out if Birdsong was healthy for that series. But Moses was determined.

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 09:09 PM

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o636/aaccee187/roundfield--473x264.jpg
#204 Danny Thomas Roundfield

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (7)
Primary Role(s): Top Big Man on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 17-10-2-2 on 49/74

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-If there was ever a player who is now underrated it's Dan Roundfield. This guy could do it all at his height. A great defender who could guard three positions, jump with centers and run with guards. A guy who was a lock for double digit rebounds and the all-defensive team in his prime, Roundfield was the best player on three Hawks playoff teams with support from John Drew and Eddie Johnson. In 1979, when the Hawks pushed the defending Champion Bullets to seven games, Roundfield led Atlanta in scoring, rebounding, blocks and steals. He made three all-star teams, one all-NBA team, five all-defensive teams and finished 5th in the MVP voting in 1980. He was the man on the Hawks during Nique's rookie season and sadly when Roundfield died last year trying to saving his wife from drowning it was Wilkins who left a fitting tribute. "Dan fearlessly lived and died for his family, which is all he ever really wanted. So yes, Dan Roundfield was a tremendous athlete who elevated basketball in the city of Atlanta, but what is even more tremendous is the imprint he made on all of us, his teammates, and on the lives of his wife, his two sons and his grandchildren."

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http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/26.%20Terry%20Cummings.jpg
#203 Robert Terrell Cummings

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 18 (8)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on Good not Great Teams
Prime Averages: 23-9-3-1 on 49/70

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-The guy selected second in the 1982 draft, right after James Worthy and right before Dominique Wilkins, and the guy who won the 1983 rookie of the year over those two and the rest of that draft class. 20,000 points later, he's still remembered third best from that class. That's Terry Cummings, an elite scoring forward who could rebound and run all day long at a young age. After two seasons with the Clippers, Cummings asked owner Donald Sterling to trade him to the Bucks. Sterling obliged and as Cummings put, "my dreams had come true" Playing in Milwaukee, just a short drive from his home in Chicago and for a Bucks team that was one of the best in the league was a great fit for Cummings. The Bucks won 50 or more games in each of Cummings first three seasons and didn't drop below .500 until 1993. They played in two conference finals and Cummings averaged 28, 22, 22 and 26 points per games over his first four playoff runs, a span of more than 35 games. In the 90's he moved to the San Antonio Spurs alongside David Robinson. He was a prime time playoff scorer there too and helped the Spurs push eventually Western Conference Champion Portland to seven games in 1990, averaging 30 per game for the final three contests of the series but coming up just short. In all Terry Cummings left his mark on the NBA as a marksman and all-around scoring machine, a beloved teammate and now dedicates his life to god as a full-time pastor.

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L.Kizzle

07-15-2014, 09:26 PM

I don't know of you'd call these guys underrated or overlooked. Roundfield will be overlooked like David West will be in this era. I used to get a lot of Terry Cummings upper deck basketball cards for some reason. In every pack, he was in there. He stayed around like Cliff Robinson.

G.O.A.T

07-15-2014, 10:11 PM

I personally have Love at #199 and LMA at #211, but you make some solid points I might reconsider.

When the numbers get this high, it's as you say, random. The tiers were created because of this issue. Basically outside of the top 12-18 it's pretty damn subjective. There are good arguments for almost every guy over every other guy within the tiers I've compiled. It's that grouping of players with similar careers, similar impact, similar greatness that is what I really find to be a satisfying labor.

One day I will abandon the numerical rankings all together, even as I work over my rankings now I am making changes. The top 70-80 I feel pretty good about, after that it's a strange mix of guys who were great individually but not good enough to win anything and guys who couldn't be your star, but as a 2 or 3 could be a key piece to a great team.

G.O.A.T

07-16-2014, 08:49 PM

http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributematerial/PlayerMaterial/WarrenJabali/JabaliSwoopPowell2.jpg
#202 Warren Edward Armstrong (Jabali)

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):
Primary Role(s): Best Player on '69 Oaks, 1A/1B on contenders
Prime Averages: 20-7-6 on 44/31/77

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-This is probably a bit too high to rank Warren Jabali, but I'm terrified of what he might do if he were ranked any lower. Jabali was a 6'2" forward, a fantastic talent and in all likelihood legitimately insane. If you've never read Terry Pluto's "Loose Balls" documenting the ABA, it's worth it just for the stories on Jabali, Marvin Barnes and John Brisker. Here's some of my favorite Jabali related quotes with some added context. First from former coach Al Bianchi..."I coached Jabali in Washington (1969-70) and I never knew what was going on in his but I didn't care either. All I knew is...the man played. He may have been the toughest competitor I was ever around in a lifetime of basketball." Despite his great competitive fire, Jabali bounced around from team to team almost every year. Says Rudy Martzke, "When Jabali came to Florida, coach Bob Bass was excited we got him for next to nothing, but I said, we got him for nothing because he's nuts. Bass said he didn't care because we were a scared team ann now with Jabali, everyone would have to be scared of us." And with good reason. Just ask Dave Twardzik, former ABAer and sixth man for the '77 Blazers..."When you had guys like Jabali around, there were fights even in exhibition games." But Jabali himself said it best..."I learned to play on the playground and there your instincts come out, smashing someones face is just basketball." Despite all the madness, dude could play. In 1969 the Oakland Oaks had him, Rick Barry, Doug Moe, Red Robbins and Larry Brown and ran all over the league. With Barry out for the stretch run and playoffs (court case) Jabali took charge. He averaged 29-13-2 (remember he was 6'2") and led the Oaks to the ABA title. Over his career he won the ABA rookie of the year, All-Star game and Playoffs MVP awards and was a four-time all-star. He was crazy good and just plain crazy.

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http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributematerial/PlayerMaterial/JimmyJones/JJonesDribbleDampier.jpg
#201 James Jones

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (7)
Primary Role(s): Best Player on Middle of the Pack teams, #2/#3 on Contenders
Prime Averages: 19-5-5 on 51/79

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]IIt

L.Kizzle

07-16-2014, 09:05 PM

I've read stories on both Jones and Jabali. You should mention they both made the All-Time ABA Team which was voted on the same time as the NBA @ 50.

G.O.A.T

07-16-2014, 09:49 PM

I've read stories on both Jones and Jabali. You should mention they both made the All-Time ABA Team which was voted on the same time as the NBA @ 50.

Thanks to you I don't have to.

But since I love the ABA so much, here's the rest of the All-Time team and a brief comment on anyone who didn't make this portion of the list.

Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Moses Malone
Willie Wise
Louie Dampier
Dan Issel
Mel Daniels
Warren Jabali
Zelmo Beaty
Julius Erving
Jimmy Jones
Charlie Scott
Roger Brown
George Gervin
Maurice Lucas
David Thompson
Connie Hawkins
George McGinnis
Billy Cunningham
Spencer Haywood

Bob Netolicky - Another great ABA character, a Bill Laimbeer type but instead of fighting he did something else that started with F. He owned the night club the team partied at after their three titles.

Marvin Barnes - The kind of guy who could eat five hamburgers before a game and then go drop 40/20 on Doctor J. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Billy Paultz - Tough as nails center. ABA's answer to Dave Cowens, proved himself in the NBA late in his prime.
Ron Boone - He reminds me of Dennis Johnson and Joe Dumars combined. High arching jump shot and great athleticism from a combo guard spot.

Donnie Freeman - Clutch scorer, at his peak a top ABA guard, later on an invaluable scorer for the Pacers last title run.

Freddie Lewis - Pacers point guard for the title teams. Overcame resentment for stealing fan favorite Rick Mount's minutes by playing his best basketball in the playoffs.

James Silas - Captain Late, as he was known, was one of the best clutch scores many have ever seen. Silas was considered a top five ABA player before his injuries cost him the '76 ABA playoffs and his NBA career.

Mack Calvin - Small, Lightning quick guard who could finish at the rack, once averaged 27 a game, constantly among the top ABA guards.

Darrel Carrier - Louie Dampier's back court running mate on those loaded Kentucky teams. Carrier was a near 40% three-point marksman, extremely good for his time.

Doug Moe - Would later claim greater fame as a coach with an up-tempo offense, but he could play. Sort of a do everything forward, Moe rebounded his position well and posted 20+ppg averages in multiple seasons.

ArbitraryWater

07-16-2014, 09:50 PM

Just start with the top 100 :lol

G.O.A.T

07-16-2014, 09:50 PM

http://www3.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Carlos+Boozer+Tattoos+Portrait+Tattoo+0ws5Ifr8z1Dl .jpg
#200 Carlos Austin Boozer Jr.

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (7)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on playoff teams/3rd/4th option on contender
Prime Averages: 18/11/3/1 on 53/72

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-The greatest Alaskan born player I am aware of and a guy who has found his way on to winning teams since his college days. Boozer combines, brute force toughness and a smooth jump shot with blue-collar rebounding and fierce competitiveness to form a prototypical power forward in the modern game. After making a name for himself as a second round pick in Cleveland, Boozer bolted for Utah and helped lead the Jazz to the 2007 Western Conference Finals. Their top showing post Stockton/Malone. In fact Utah went from 26 to 41 to 51 to 54 wins in Boozers first four seasons. The won playoff series in '08 and 2010 as well before he signed with Chicago in the 2010 off-season. During the '07 run Boozers 24/12/3 on 54/74 averages earned him inclusion amongst the leagues top players. He would make his two all-star appearances in '07 and '08 and his only All-NBA nod as well. Though injuries and father time caught up with Boozer shortly after he has acclimated himself well as a role player in the last few seasons, having a very productive 2013 at age 31. What sets Boozer apart from other forwards in this group in below is the same thing that moves Terry Cummings up. He posted numbers on good teams, winning teams that won multiple playoff series and series in consecutive years. Maybe it's a Duke thing, but he always has seemed to get it. With Boozer amnestied now, a number of contenders are biding for his services, he could be a key piece come June to watch for.

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http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Antoine-Walker-Shimmy.jpg
#199 Antoine Devon Walker

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (9)
Primary Role(s): 2nd Option on average teams, #3/#4 on contenders
Prime Averages: 20-9-4-1 on 42/32/63

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-Laugh if you want, but before he was a shot chucking, money blowing machine, Walker could really play. He helped one of the most talented college teams ever win a title at Kentucky and then became one of the best inside/outside forwards in the NBA with the Celtics during the ill-fated Pitino era and their brief renaissance under Jim O'Brien which included trip to the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals. Walker made three all-star teams in Boston and posted seasons of 22/10. 23/9 and 22/9 as well as two other 20 ppg seasons. After a year in Dallas and a year split between Atlanta and Boston, Walker signed with the Heat in 2005 and helped Miami win a title as a third option averaging 12/5 in the regular season and 13/6 in the playoffs. Though he proved he could fit in with a Championship team and play a crucial role, like so many of his generation, Walker seemed to fail to reach his potential. He hit buzzer-beaters, scored almost 50 points twice, posted triple-doubles, but always made a few head-scratching plays for every few good plays. Walker, like so many other talented stars seemed not to know the limits of his skills as time went on, but if you'd have asked him he'd explain it perfectly. Many people wonder why a 30% three point shooter would take four, five, as many as eight three's a game.?. Asked why he shot so many three's he, Walker, obviously replied..."because there are no fours"

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L.Kizzle

07-16-2014, 10:20 PM

Boozer a few spora from DC and Vin is alright lookin back at it. Walker I thonk geta overlooked in the past era of forwards. He was like a mini LeBron on those early Celtic teams.

L.Kizzle

07-17-2014, 02:40 AM

Marvin Barnes - The kind of guy who could eat five hamburgers before a game and then go drop 40/20 on Doctor J. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Mack Calvin - Small, Lightning quick guard who could finish at the rack, once averaged 27 a game, constantly among the top ABA guards.

Doug Moe - Would later claim greater fame as a coach with an up-tempo offense, but he could play. Sort of a do everything forward, Moe rebounded his position well and posted 20+ppg averages in multiple seasons.
Surprised these guys didn't make your list.

G.O.A.T

07-17-2014, 02:02 PM

http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.1740527.1265465717!/image/3875004430.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_600/3875004430.jpg
#198 Richard Joseph McGuire

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (9)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on good teams
Prime Averages: 8-5-6 on 39/65

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L.Kizzle

07-17-2014, 02:18 PM

The only early guards you here about is the Celtic backcourt of Cousy/Sharman and Slater Martin since he was Mikan's PG and Max Zaslofsky because of the NCAA incident.

You never really hear about Dick, Davies, Andy Phillip, Bobby Wanzer and Gene Shue.

Bill Bridges played in the short lived ABL in the early 60s.

wally_world

07-17-2014, 03:08 PM

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Antoine-Walker-Shimmy.jpg[/CENTER]
#199 Antoine Devon Walker

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (9)
Primary Role(s): 2nd Option on average teams, #3/#4 on contenders
Prime Averages: 29-9-4-1 on 42/32/63

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-Laugh if you want, but before he was a shot chucking, money blowing machine, Walker could really play. He helped one of the most talented college teams ever win a title at Kentucky and then became one of the best inside/outside forwards in the NBA with the Celtics during the ill-fated Pitino era and their brief renaissance under Jim O'Brien which included trip to the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals. Walker made three all-star teams in Boston and posted seasons of 22/10. 23/9 and 22/9 as well as two other 20 ppg seasons. After a year in Dallas and a year split between Atlanta and Boston, Walker signed with the Heat in 2005 and helped Miami win a title as a third option averaging 12/5 in the regular season and 13/6 in the playoffs. Though he proved he could fit in with a Championship team and play a crucial role, like so many of his generation, Walker seemed to fail to reach his potential. He hit buzzer-beaters, scored almost 50 points twice, posted triple-doubles, but always made a few head-scratching plays for every few good plays. Walker, like so many other talented stars seemed not to know the limits of his skills as time went on, but if you'd have asked him he'd explain it perfectly. Many people wonder why a 30% three point shooter would take four, five, as many as eight three's a game.?. Asked why he shot so many three's he, Walker, obviously replied..."because there are no fours"

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:wtf: that's gotta be a mistake

L.Kizzle

07-17-2014, 04:07 PM

:wtf: that's gotta be a mistake
Obviously, probably meant 20.

JimmyMcAdocious

07-17-2014, 04:10 PM

:wtf: that's gotta be a mistake

I know right? No way Walker ever shot above 40%.

Rocketswin2013

07-17-2014, 04:23 PM

I wonder where you rank Marques Johnson. Had a really good start to his career in the 80's and was a borderline superstar IMO. If anyone considers Blake Griffin, Kevin love or Steph Curry a superstar, he was one.

T_L_P

07-17-2014, 04:54 PM

Really interested to see if/where you place Brad Daugherty!

G.O.A.T

07-17-2014, 07:23 PM

http://dunkcontest.free.fr/public/blowup-images/.Larry-Nance-NBA-Dunk-Contest_m.jpg
#196 Larry Donell Nance

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (11)
Primary Role(s): #3/#4 guy on Good to Very Good teams / Best Player on bad Teams
Prime Averages: 18-9-3-2 on 55/77

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-Ahead of his time with superb length and explosive athleticism, Nance was a fire cracker in Phoenix first then Cleveland. Coming to the Suns in the earlier eighties, Nance fit in with Dennis Johnson, Walter Davis and Maurice Lucas as Phoenix won 50+ games 1983 and went to the conference finals in '84. After being the featured piece during the Suns rebuilding, Nance was shipped to Cleveland in 1988 for Kevin Johnson. In one of the few trades that works great for both sides, The Suns and Cavs both took off. In 1988-89 Nance made his second all-star game and the Cavs won 57 games. The all-star selection and 57 wins would repeat themselves in 1992 and this time Cleveland added in a trip to the conference finals. Nance's athleticism made him a fascinating player. He won the inaugural NBA slam dunk contest in 1984 beating the likes of Doctor J and Dominique Wilkins. But he was more than just a great dunker. He averaged as many as 22 points, 9 rebounds and 3 blocked shots. He shot over 50% from the field in every season except his last (49%) and did so with a combination of great finishes at the rim and a deadly 18 foot jump shot. Think Serge Ibaka with a little more coordination and you've got an idea of Nance.

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http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t-YGWi6kL.jpg
#195 Rudolph Anton LaRusso

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (9)
Primary Role(s): #3 on Title Contenders
Prime Averages: 16/10/2 on 43/77

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-Everyone knows about West and Baylor, but the 1960's Lakers were more than just a two man show. The most common third wheel on the Lakers bus was hard nosed forward Rudy LaRusso. The 6'8" enforcer for the Lakers front line was a five-time all-star and had a reputation as one of the top defensive forwards of his era. Averaging between 12 and 22 points and 8 and 10 rebounds in each of his ten seasons, LaRusso quietly went about the business of stopping the opposition best forward and knocking down 15 footers and hook shots if you dared leave him open. Elgin Baylor said LaRusso was his "favorite teammate" and that he could always count on him. Other teammates credit him with keeping them loose of the court anfdfocused on it as an ardent professional and a great overall guy. Playing in four NBA finals with the Lakers LaRusso posting averages of 14 points and 9 rebounds during those runs. Many Lakers admire LaRusso for his conduct n and off the court and even Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has said the Lakers should retire his #35 jersey.

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L.Kizzle

07-17-2014, 08:01 PM

Lance and Rudy, two overlooked forwards in their day. Even though the PF position in their day wasn't really talked about until later in both of their careers.

G.O.A.T

07-18-2014, 09:52 AM

http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributematerial/PlayerMaterial/LouieDampier/DampierDriveErvingNice.jpg
#194 Louie Dampier

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (8)
Primary Role(s): Best player on ABA playoff teams, 3rd Best player on ABA contenders
Prime Averages: 20-3-6 on 44/36/83

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-More than any other player, Louie Dampier's career was missed by basketball fans because of the ABA. Though he did play three NBA seasons, they were late in his career, into his thirties and as a backup for the San Antonio Spurs. But starting with the league and 1967 and seeing it through it's final season in 1976 Dampier played in 822 ABA games for the Kentucky Colonels. He is the ABA's all-time leader in games, minutes played and three-point field goals. For good measure he is also the ABA's all-time leading scorer and assist man. Dampier played his college ball at Kentucky along with Pat Riley. Both were a part of the 1966 team that lost the Championship game to all-Black Texas Western. Drafted by the Royals in the NBA, Dampier opted to join the new ABA and play in his home state. He would make seven all-star teams, four times he was an all-ABA selection. He averaged as many as 26 points a game, poured in 55 one night including 11 threes, and at age 30, he contributed 18 points and 8 assists a night during the Colonels playoff run to their only Championship.

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http://sportsofboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/030410_michael_finley.jpg
#193 Michael Howard Finley

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2 on playoff team/#5 on Championship Team
Prime Averages: 21-5-4-1 on 45/38/82

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-There seems to be a distinct lack of Michael Finley type players in the league today. Seemingly the perfect piece for a team, he is athletic, efficent can score inside and out, defend and he almost never turns it over. An off guard with his skill set putting up the type of numbers he did would be an all-star and/or all-NBA lock today. However a decade ago Finley couldn't break into the elite group. For Finley his climb to NBA stardom started in Phoenix as a role player, after being traded in 1997 re-signed with Dallas the next year to get an opportunity for more playing time. During his very best seasons from 1998 to 2001 he played more minutes than any other NBA player. He made two all-star teams and was regularly receiving minimal MVP votes. He was the first piece to the puzzle in turning the Mavericks franchise around. After he was in place, Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki, traded for Juwan Howard and Steve Nash and the rest is history. After five consecutive 50-win seasons, but only one conference finals trip, the Mavericks decided to reshape their roster and Finley signed with Texas rival and defending NBA Champion San Antonio. After the Spurs lost to the Mavericks in the 2006 playoffs and watched Dallas advance to the Finals, Finley and his teammates were hungry. Accepting a smaller role as the fifth starter and playing just under 30 minutes per game, Finley brought shooting, defense and that hunger for a title to the table as the Spurs won it all in 2007.

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G.O.A.T

07-18-2014, 10:26 AM

http://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/red-kerr.jpg
#192 John Graham Kerr

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on playoff teams
Prime Averages: 16-13-2 on 42/72

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-If your old enough to remember the NBA legends game during all-star weekend (and what a bad idea it was) you might remember a guy who was the size of a house with trace evidence of what was once a head of red hair throwing high post passes between the legs, around the back and in any other non-conventional way he could imagine. That was Johnny "Red" Kerr. Drafted to Syracuse in 1954, right after the shot clock was created by his teams owner Danny Biasone, Kerr arrived just at the right time to bolster an already strong Nationals front court and turn them into the Champions on the 1955 NBA season. Kerr averaged 14 points and 11 rebounds for the playoffs and provided a bigger body to defend against the likes of Fort Wayne's Larry Foust and Philadelphia's Neil Johnston. Kerr would play eight more seasons in Syracuse, the final eight for the franchise before they moved to their new home in Philadelphia. He spent two years as a Sixer, then one as a Baltimore Bullet before retiring in 1966. In total Kerr made three all-star teams, finished as high as sixth in the MVP voting and played in the playoffs every year of his career, including six conference finals.

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https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5217/5427064853_53fe1d9046_z.jpg
#191 Paul Theron Silas

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 16 (8)
Primary Role(s): #3/#4 on playoff teams & contenders
Prime Averages: 13-12-3 on 45/65

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-Arguably the top defensive forward of the seventies, Paul Silas made five all-defensive teams in the decade and seemingly went from winner to winner contributing that defense, rebounding and professionalism along the way. Silas played in fourteen postseasons capturing three titles, two with the Celtics and one with the Sonics. He was an all-star in Boston and Phoenix and posted double digits rebounds in St. Louis. Only Kareem, Magic and Wilt (as well as members of the 1960's Celtics) have played in more than the 10 conference finals Silas has appeared in. Silas was one of the top offensive rebounders in the league during his Celtic days, earning a team that had balanced scoring even more chances to shoot the ball. Four times he finished in the top ten in rebounding and ranks 21st all-time in rebounds for his career. Silas made a strong impression on teammates and opponents alike, perhaps none more so than John Havlicek who said of Silas after their second title together in 1976: "Paul is one of the most extraordinary people I've ever known, I'm not just talking about basketball; his character, his experiences, and his wisdom is unparalleled. He's a very strong leader, and you can't help but be affected by him."

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L.Kizzle

07-18-2014, 12:23 PM

Finley was one of my favs in the early 2000s. I will always remember his cartwheel dunk.

G.O.A.T

07-18-2014, 12:38 PM

Finley was one of my favs in the early 2000s. I will always remember his cartwheel dunk.

Kizzle or anyone else, which current players remind you most of Michael Finley?

tmacattack33

07-18-2014, 12:56 PM

:applause:

If you could list the years they played that could be a little better. And list the years that you are using for their "prime averages".

G.O.A.T

07-18-2014, 01:02 PM

:applause:

If you could list the years they played that could be a little better. And list the years that you are using for their "prime averages".

Most of the players career spans are covered in the brief writeups. Prime seasons are classified for this project as seasons where a player aged at least 50 games in the same or similar role/circumstances as their peak season.

I would do it, but it's literally a Google search away, I think there is more crucial info to look at for the general reader.

If you want specifics about a certain player or group of players pm me.

L.Kizzle

07-18-2014, 02:20 PM

Kizzle or anyone else, which current players remind you most of Michael Finley?
Can't think of anyone really. I guess Marvin Williams is a very poor version of Fin.

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 10:56 AM

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/35.%20Charlie%20Scott.jpg
#190 Charles Thomas Scott

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (8)
Primary Role(s): #4/#5 on Championship Teams/Best Player Balanced playoff teams
Prime Averages: 24-4-5 on 45/77

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-Prolific scoring guard whose career began in the NBA where he poured 30ppg over two seasons with the Virginia Squires, including the 1971-72 season which was the rookie campaign for Julius Erving, Scott was the team’s leading scorer. The Squires were a team on the rise, but Scott bolted for the NBA after the Celtics (who had his draft rights) traded him to the Suns. Had he stuck around the ABA it seems likely his Squires would have played the Indiana Pacers for the title that year. But instead he posted more big numbers on a bad Phoenix team. Over three seasons he averaged 24 points and as many as six assists. He made three all-star teams in a row, following his two ABA selections and proved himself as a bonafide scorer in the NBA. And so, Boston came calling. They had won the Championship in 1974, but failed to defend their title in 1975 falling short against the Washington Bullets. John Havlicek was getting older, slowing down, and Scott could provide a perimeter scoring punch to help the team get back to the top of the mountain. That’s just what he did. After being acquired in a deal that sent Paul Westphal to the Suns (another trade that worked out great for both parties), Scott would average 18 points 4 rebounds and 4 assists and the Celtics would face the surprising Suns in the NBA finals. He kept up the same pace for much of the playoffs, but saved his best for last , the infamous double overtime game six of the 1976 finals saw Scott post 25 points, 11 rebounds, 5 steals and 3 assists as the Celtics hing on by the skin of their team for their 13th World Championship. Scott played two more seasons in Boston before they began rebuilding, From there he spent half a season with the Lakers and two years in Denver before retiring at age 32.

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http://i.huffpost.com/gen/259779/thumbs/r-MARK-AGUIRRE-COLLAPSES-large570.jpg
#189 Mark Anthony Aguirre

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (7)
Primary Role(s): #4/#5 on Championship Teams/Best Player on Bad Teams
Prime Averages: 25-6-4-1 on 49/31/74

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-It’s not always fun playing for an NBA expansion team, and Mark Aguirre, the top pick of the 1981 draft found that out after he began his career with the NBA’s 23rd franchise the Dallas Mavericks, right as they began their second NBA season. After having a dazzling career at DePaul, Aguirre despite rumors of an attitude problem was the pick of the Mavericks, their centerpiece to build around. Aguirre, reluctant to express joy after being drafted said he just wanted to get better every year with Dallas, and it started just that way. Dallas jumped to 28 wins in Aguirre’s rookie year and 38 in his second year as he averaged 24 points six rebounds and four assists. He was an all-star his third season as Dallas’ win total improved again and this time, over .500 they would host a best of five playoff series with Seattle. After four grueling games the series was tied and Seattle led Dallas by four with 30 seconds remaining. A steal and lay-up by Rolondo Blackman and a five second violation followed by a Blackman jumper tied the game and forced overtime. There Aguirre hit two key shots to secure a one point win and a series win for the Mavericks. The next two seasons saw 44038 records and two more playoff appearances, but a first round exit against Portland and an a second semifinals loss to the Lakers (despite 28 a game from Aguirre) had the tension between coach Dick Motta and Mark at an all-time high. As their constant feud was described: “The usual unfolding of these well-publicized tiffs: Aguirre does something on the court that irks Motta. Motta yells and then yanks Aguirre from the game. Aguirre sulks. Motta fumes. They exchange words in the locker room afterward. They meet later and, temporarily, patch up differences.” 1987 and 1988 saw the Mavericks field their best two teams of the 80’s. The won 110 games in the two seasons and though they were upset in the first round by high-flying Seattle in 1987, they reached the conference finals and pushed Los Angeles to seven games in 1988, Aguirre for his part led the team with 25 points a game and added 7 rebounds and 3 assists against Showtime. That was the peak for the Mavericks though. Aguirre, now a three-time all-star, however was still feuding with Motta and when Dallas struggled to start the 1988-89 campaign, his name got brought up in trade talks. He eventually he landed in Detroit in exchange for Adrian Dantley. A close friend of Isiah Thomas, Aguirre accepted a lesser role and the Pistons took of, going 37-4 down the stretch and into the playoffs en route to their first title. They would win again in 1990, now with Aguirre providing scoring punch off the bench. Mark stayed with Detroit through 1993, played one season with the Clippers and retired in 1994.

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Shade8780

07-19-2014, 11:07 AM

Can we just skip to the top 10?

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 12:50 PM

http://news.sctv.com/tyxw/basketball/201110/W020111012331956941183.jpg
#188 Larry Joe Kenon

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2 on above average to very good teams
Prime Averages: 20-10-3-2 on 49/80

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A t 6

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 12:53 PM

Can we just skip to the top 10?

What do you mean?

I don't see how that would work.

Trust me it'll be better because of this.

fragokota

07-19-2014, 12:53 PM

Can we just skip to the top 10?

:lol

jlip

07-19-2014, 01:06 PM

Kizzle or anyone else, which current players remind you most of Michael Finley?

He doesn't particularly remind of Finley, but Joe Johnson is a current player that I would consider a Finley caliber player. Finley was more a slasher (even though he had an effective outside shot), while Joe is more a jump shooter, but they seem to be on the same tier IMO. In their primes both are great #2 players on teams that could go deep in the playoffs.

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 01:56 PM

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/54/4AECF473A6B355FEAA74E2D63BABF7.jpg
#186 Gerald Eugene Sloan

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (9)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3/#4 on balanced playoff teams
Prime Averages: 15-8-3-2 on 43/72

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http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/bulls/vanlier_050215.jpg
#185 Norman Allen Van Lier III

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3/#4 on balanced playoff teams
Prime Averages: 13-5-7-2 on 42/79

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]The Chicago Bulls of the 1970

L.Kizzle

07-19-2014, 04:30 PM

Charlie Scott was also a playground legend out at Rucker Park. I wanna say he has one of the highest ppg avg in ABA/NBA history. Kenon is very forgotten player but the mid-late 70s is probably the most non talked about era in basketball save from 1946 until Russell was drafted.

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 07:13 PM

http://mymediadiary.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/rip.jpg
#184 Richard Clay Hamilton

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 14 (9)
Primary Role(s): Go-to-guy on Contending Teams
Prime Averages: 19-3-4-1 on 45/35/85

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I already miss Rip Hamilton. When we (I say we to mean the Detroit Pistons) traded for Rip I was lukewarm. I had finally come around to Jerry Stackhouse, Rick Carlisle had him playing defense and jacking up considerably less bad shots. But the trade was made along with the signing of Chauncey Billups and few could have guessed it would become the beginning of the best backcourt in the last 20 years. Hamilton is a poor-mans Reggie Miller. He is supremely conditioned, can run off screens all day and understands how to get open as well as anyone. Pair those traits with a deadly mid-range jumper and a lightning quick release from his long 6

L.Kizzle

07-19-2014, 07:46 PM

I think Van Lier waa much better than Rip. I think he's at least a tier above him. Same with Scott.

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 08:03 PM

I think Van Lier waa much better than Rip. I think he's at least a tier above him. Same with Scott.

Looking at the numbers, the accolades, the team success, I don;t see it. Rip was the leading scorer for an NBA Champion and a constant 20ppg guy for deep playoff runs.

All in the same tier to me. Slight edge to Rip for winning the title in his role.

To4

07-19-2014, 08:28 PM

Love the list man! keep it up. love reading this stuff..

L.Kizzle

07-19-2014, 08:29 PM

Looking at the numbers, the accolades, the team success, I dthey doe it. Rip was the leading scorer for an NBA Champion and a constant 20ppg guy for deep playoff runs.

All in the same tier to me. Slight edge to Rip for winning the title in his role.
Don't get me wrong I like Rip but he doesn't have the individual accolades they have. Those guys were either top ten in scoring some seasons or a top defender at their position. he wasn't dominant enough to seperate himself without those accolades. That's what seperates a Gus Williams from a Rip. Similar situation over in Seattle no superstars but he had a few more accolades that seperates him and Rip.

G.O.A.T

07-19-2014, 08:40 PM

Don't get me wrong I like Rip but he doesn't have the individual accolades they have. Those guys were either top ten in scoring some seasons or a top defender at their position. he wasn't dominant enough to seperate himself without those accolades. That's what seperates a Gus Williams from a Rip. Similar situation over in Seattle no superstars but he had a few more accolades that seperates him and Rip.

Charlie Scott was a top ten scorer on real bad teams. He was the 3rd/4th option on good teams while still in his twenties.

Van Lier was a great defender and a good play maker but I'll take a 22 per game scorer on the NBA Champion and above average defender over 13-4-6 an all-league defense on a borderline contender.

Gus Williams may still be heard from...

G.O.A.T

07-21-2014, 10:49 AM

http://image2.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2014/124/23969366_1399309828.jpg
#182 Paul Norman Seymour

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (5)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on playoff teams
Prime Averages: 13-4-5 on 34/80

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-Three time all-star and two time all-NBA selection. Second leading scoring and assist leader for 1955 NBA Champions. Defensive standout and during his prime one of the top playmakers in the league. Played in two NBA Finals. Got better after the transition to the shot clock era. Outstanding foul shooter by the end of his career, once made 39 consecutive.

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http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mMzE5HgTrXkA8Jh8TFVe8ww.jpg[/CENTER]
#181 Robert Francis Wanzer

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 9 (6)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on playoff teams
Prime Averages: 13-5-3 on 39/83

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Teamed with Bob Davies to form one of the NBA

L.Kizzle

07-21-2014, 11:17 AM

Ahh, the forgotten era of the NBA the early 1950s. Andy Phillip, Arnie Risen, Carl Braun and Mel Hutchins. Will they make it or jut missed the cut? Maurice Stokes don't think he had a long enough career. He was probably on his was to a top 10-15 NBA career.

Pearleojam

07-21-2014, 01:23 PM

Tks Man!

My favorite list on ISH!!!:rockon:

G.O.A.T

07-23-2014, 10:28 AM

http://www.fantasychamp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ro-blackman.jpg
#176 Rolando Antonio Blackman

Tier Classification: Second Tier Stars
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (9)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on playoff teams
Prime Averages: 20-4-4-1 on 50/33/84

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Joining the Mavericks in 1981, the start of their second season in existence, Blackman along with classmate Mark Aguirre and later selections Derek Harper and Sam Perkins would form the core of the Mavericks first playoff team. From 1984 to 1988 the Mavericks won an average of 49 games, made the playoffs each season and peaked pushing to Lakers to seven games in the 1988 Western Conference Finals. Blackman was the go-to-guy in the clutch. Possessing a dangerous combination of speed, sensational ball handling and outstanding body control and balance Blackman could flat out score. He almost always went right, but if you cut him off he

G.O.A.T

07-23-2014, 11:02 AM

http://assets2.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/richardson_michael_ray-640x360.jpg
#173 Micheal Ray Richardson

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 8 (4)
Primary Role(s):#1/#2/#3 on Borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 18-7-8-3 on 46/22/70

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Hn all-time what could have been story here. Michael Ray Richardson burst onto the NBA scene and just as quickly was gone. He battled substance abuse throughout his prime years and still posted eye popping numbers, even leading the league in steals and assists in his sophomore season of 1979-80. He was in some ways the East Coast answer to Magic Johnson at the point guard position. A 6

Dr.J4ever

07-23-2014, 11:30 AM

Occasionally, there are great ISH threads. This is one of them. Thanks for the ABA players being included. I myself believe their stats should be given equal weight, especially after 1972.

L.Kizzle

07-23-2014, 11:33 AM

Collins and Ro are two very overlooked players. There was a special narrated by Chris Rock on TNT back in maybe 2001 called "What ever happened to Micheal Ray Richardson?" It was a great documentary.

G.O.A.T

07-24-2014, 12:48 PM

http://nimg.sulekha.com/sports/original700/peja-stojakovic-2009-11-10-1-40-17.jpg
#171 Predrag Stojakovic

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (6)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on borderline contenders
Prime Averages: 20-5-2-1 on 46/40/89

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]There wasn

G.O.A.T

07-24-2014, 01:25 PM

Occasionally, there are great ISH threads. This is one of them. Thanks for the ABA players being included. I myself believe their stats should be given equal weight, especially after 1972.

I read a lot of your ABA thread and like you, I am typically one to defend the ABA and the achievements of the players in it. That being said there are a few things I've decided over the past ten years during which I've done most of my ABA studies.

1) The forwards in the ABA were better than the forwards in the NBA. Right from the start with guys like Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood and of course later with Erving, Barnes, McGinnis, Kenon, Lucas, Issel etc. the ABA attracted most of the young athletic taller players to it's league.

2) The centers and guards were not nearly as good as the NBA's. Gilmore could have been a top 5 NBA center, the rest (Nater, Robbins, Beaty, Paultz, Caldwell Jones) couldn't have for more than a peak season here or there. The best ABA guards; Dampier, Silas, Larry and Jimmy Jones, Mack Calvin, Ron Boone, none of them were able to come close to equaling their ABA successes in the NBA.

3) Teams didn't play defense the same way, coaching was less evolved defensively and the ABA promoted a high scoring more open style of play. This probably made for great entertainment for the casual fan, but it skewed the numbers, especially scoring and rebounding quite a bit. Now the NBA's scoring and rebounding numbers are also a bit inflated from 1970-1976 because of expansion and the ABA weakening the talent pool, but still the effect is less pronounced than in the ABA. Looking at the top players who had prime seasons in both leagues back-to-back here's what you get.

Barry
72 ABA - 32-8-4
73 NBA - 22-9-5

McGinnis
75 ABA - 30-14-6-3
76 NBA - 23-12-5-3

Erving
76 ABA - 29-11-5-3-2
77 NBA - 22-9-4-2-1

Haywood
70 ABA - 30-20-2
71&72 NBA* - 25-13-2

*sat out most of 70-71

Hawkins
69 ABA - 30-12-4
70 NBA - 25-10-5

Issel
76 ABA - 23-11-2
77 NBA - 22-9-2

Gilmore
76 ABA - 25-16-3
77 NBA - 19-13-2

Knight
ABA 76 - 26-9-3
NBA 77 - 24-7-3

Beaty
NBA 69 - 22-11-2
ABA 71 - 23-16-2

Caldwell
NBA 70 - 21-5-3
ABA 71 - 21-7-4

Scott
72 ABA - 35-5-5
73 NBA - 25-4-6

Even in the case of Billy Cunningham, whose ABA and NBA numbers are almost equal from 72 to 73, he posted his NBA numbers on a last place team and his ABA ones of a first place team.

Let's acknowledge that a lot of the big scoring drop offs were because players went to more balanced teams, but that's sort of the point pertaining to the NBA...depth. Overall, I think what you get is pretty consistent evidence that the ABA was a slightly higher paced league with a little less depth of talent, less organized defense, but just as good if not greater high end star power at three of the five positions.

Thanks as always for your contributions and thoughts everyone, the more feedback the better the list gets (in most cases)

L.Kizzle

07-24-2014, 05:12 PM

I forget all about Peja.

G.O.A.T

07-24-2014, 09:46 PM

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/pistons/gshue_225_080408.jpg
#169 Eugene William Shue

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (5)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 20-5-5 on 40/83

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]After starting his career in 1954, the first season of the shot clock era, Gene Shue spending two frustrating seasons in Philadelphia and New York. Having improved year after year, he finally got his chance with the Ft. Wayne Zollner Pistons during the 1956-57 season. After a season proving himself as a role player, the pass-first, defend first, shot second guard was a beloved teammate and eventually a very successful coach, turned into an all-star and stayed an all-star for five consecutive seasons, scoring 20 points, playing all-league caliber defense and a great all-around game. His line drive set shot and his one handed swinging scoop layup were his best offensive weapons and in Ft. Wayne and Detroit for the Pistons they came in handy. His teams however were mediocre however, paired with a combination of Bailey Howell, Walter Dukes, Bob Ferry and Don Ohl they struggled to win as much as they lost. During Shue

Gotterdammerung

07-24-2014, 10:12 PM

G.O.A.T

07-24-2014, 10:22 PM

Excellent work, GOAT, as usual.

All of your threads should be compiled into a book. That's largely an untapped market :cheers:

Grandmamma was one of the biggest stars in the NBA when I started watching (1991), and turned into my generation's what-if story. :facepalm

Thanks, one day. I want to do a real good job though, I don't want to produce bad art. I'd have to stop critiquing everything.

I love seeing so many of you guys from the first thread five years ago popping in to say hello. Wish people like you were around here posting content and comments more often.

Thanks again for the compliment and support and rest assured that until the day you do me the honor of buying my book, all my scraps and half thoughts will be filtered for bullshit here on ish.

G.O.A.T

07-24-2014, 11:33 PM

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/83.%20Truck%20Robinson.jpg
#167 Leonard Eugene Robinson

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (6)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams/#3/#4 on good teams
Prime Averages: 20-11-2-1 on 49/67

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-Perception is a funny thing. Leonard Robinson is actually a friendly guy. Likeable, personable, and even his game on the court was one more of finesse than fury. Yet, for reasons more involving rookie hazing than actually fitting the man, he became Truck Robinson. Though he was reluctant to embrace the name, as he became a star playing the game his way, he saw the benefits of people, even players, perceiving him another; "At first, I didn't like (Truck), but later on I was getting away with stuff at my size that I shouldn't have been getting away with, just with that name. I'd never been in fights or anything like that in the NBA. You just get a reputation. New guys come in the league, young guys, and I'd see their eyes from watching me on TV, and they'd say 'That's the Truck.' When I went to the hole, guys would just move out of the way." In eleven pro seasons, Robinson played for five teams in five cities and made an impact everywhere he went. Starting in Washington, with the Bullets, Robinson was a reserve forward. In his rookie season of 1974-75 they went to the NBA Finals. The eighth man, Robinson was largely left out of the playoff rotation. The next season he became the first man of the bench, averaged 11-7, but in the playoffs again saw his minutes dwindle. By 1976-77 season it was clear Robinson was going to be an impact player. He averaged 16 points 9 rebounds in 41 games, but the Bullets were committed to Unseld and Hayes up front and shipped Robinson to the Hawks for guard Tom Henderson. Robinson played out the season and signed a free agent contract with the Jazz. In his one full season in New Orleans Robinson had a career year paired alongside Pete Maravich. He averaged 23 points and 16 rebounds, earned all-NBA first team honors even, but the Jazz stunk. 39-43, a bummer. He was traded the next season to Phoenix. The Suns had begun to rise in 1976, making the NBA finals by surprise. Now they needed a rebounder. Robinson had averaged more rebounds than the Suns top two glass men in 1978 so he seemed like a nice fit. They gave up two first round picks and a couple scrubs and added Robinson to a core of guards Walter Davis, Paul Westphal and center Alvan Adams. In three and a half seasons with the Suns Robinson averaged 19 points and 11 rebounds, but dropped to 11 points and 8 rebounds in the playoffs. He did however make make his second all-star team and his only conference finals as a starter in 1979. After the 1982 season, Truck was traded to New York for fellow veteran Maurice Lucas. He played two seasons as a Knicks and retired in 1984. Paul Westphal remembers him as having earned his nickname rather he liked it or not. "I remember he was the kind of guy who never seemed to get tired. He was always there banging, getting rebounds, doing what he did best. He brought his lunch pail everyday."

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http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/phil_chenier_1970_11_01.jpg
#166 Phillip Chenier

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (5)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on contenders
Prime Averages: 21-4-3-2

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-Another player who had his career destroyed by injuries and never got to reach his full potential. Phil Chenier was a smooth but lightning quick high-flying guard who could score the ball in a variety of ways and shut down an opponent on defense. His long arms and great timing made him one of the league leaders in steals and best shot blocking guards of the era. His picturesque jump shot has made him a favorite of contemporary fans ever since. After being selected to the all-rookie team in 1972, Chenier made three all-star teams and was an all-NBA selection in 1975 when he averaged 22 points per game for the league's best team. His teammates describe him as one of the most skilled guys they ever played with and a top rate teammate. His battles with Walt Frazier, where he frequently held his own at least, show just how good a player he was and could have been for a long time. Though he humble conceds that Frazier was better and contends that they look more alike than they played alike, the two were often compared. And as this SI piece from the 1974 playoffs shows, Chenier could get the better on occasion. “And the Bullet guards were conspiring meanwhile to give Monroe and Frazier a lot of unexpected pain. Chenier's contribution was mostly in the form of his precise jumper on offense and repeated blocks of Frazier's jumpers on defense. By the end of the fourth game Chenier had outscored Walt by 23 points. In the second game he held him to just six, and in the third, Frazier left the Garden court to the loudest boos of his career.” Few people have any idea just how good Phil Chenier was. It's rare to hear folks recall just how easily he could drop 30 points on an opponent. Effortlessly, smooth, seemingly without breaking a sweat. Chenier was the key to the Bullets back court during the middle seasons between Monroe and Dandridge the former and later perimeter stars for the Bullets during the Unseld years. In Chenier's five healthy seasons as a starter the Bullets never won fewer than 47 games. In 1975 they won 60 games and advanced to the finals before being upset by the Warriors. Chenier was at his best in the postseason where he scored at least 24 points twenty times, 30 points seven times and 35 points five times. Sadly a back injury early in the 1977-78 season forced Chenier to sit out during the Bullets run to the finals that season where they finally won a title. Though he wasn't on the court for the much of the season, it's fitting he received a ring as he was one of a major reasons for the Bullets success in the seventies. For the last twenty five years Chenier could be heard as a broadcaster for the Bullets, I mean Wizards. No I mean Bullets.

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L.Kizzle

07-24-2014, 11:43 PM

G.O.A.T

07-24-2014, 11:47 PM

I made a thread a few years back about Johnson, the already mentioned Derrick Coleman and the soon to be mentioned Shawn Kemp. How those 3 guys were the future of the power forward position after Chuck and Mailman came in and wrecked havoc in the mid to late 80s.

And all three of them will end up being trivia questions years from now. They're still somewhat fresh in fans minds as it's only been ten or so years since they've been gone.

I remember that thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241629)

Here was my response then as it is today...

The beginning of the entitlement generation. Too much money too quickly. Most of the stars of that generation including these guys were well past their prime before 30. A big part of why guys like Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Stockton, Malone etc. stayed dominant for so long.

Add to the list Kenny Anderson, Vin Baker, Isiah Rider, Jimmy Jackson etc.

But the three you mentioned were the best examples. What great starts. Johnson broke down physically, Coleman mentally and Kemp psychologically, but they all broke down. I'd agree that Coleman seemed the most destined for stardom. It seemed only a matter of time before he, not Kemp joined Barkley and Malone as the games best power forwards.

Perhaps their choices of shoe contracts should have clued us in. Kemp signed with Reebok, thus he had staying power and peaked pretty high, but was never the best. Johnson, a converse star, peaked with the company and faded from the market just as fast. And Coleman...he signed with British Knights. The cycle of bad choices had begun before we even realized it.

L.Kizzle

07-24-2014, 11:59 PM

Truck Robinson, too me he seemed like an Otis Thorpe/Charles Oakley type player. Except it looked like he scored more than those guys.

But maybe he was more of the Maurice Lucas/Jeff Ruland role?

The mid 70s NBA is the least talked about (besides the pre-shot clock era.)

You just named 3 players, Truck and the Phil's (Smith and Chenier) who very seldom get bought up if at all.

G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 09:38 AM

http://www.nba.com/media/arenas_420_070104.jpg
#165 Gilbert Jay Arenas

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (5)
Primary Role(s): #1 option on borderline playoff teams
Prime Averages: 24-4-6-2 on 42-36-82

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]To call Gilbert Arenas weird might be selling him short. To me, he

L.Kizzle

07-26-2014, 11:04 AM

I think Arenas was on his way to a hall of fame career. A difference one game makes. On the night he was injured vs the Bobcats he did not start. Why? He got caught in traffic and was late to shoot around for the first time in his career. Eddie Jordan punished him and benched him for the start of the game. Upon entering the game Gerald Wallace runs into his knee and that was the end of Agent Zero as we know it.

G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 06:55 PM

http://standingosports.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ff5.jpg
#163 Joakim Simon Noah

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 7 (5)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on borderline contender/#1 on playoff teams
Prime Averages: 12-11-3-1-2 on 50/73

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-Some players are just winners. From his time at Florida a few things have been readily apparent about Joakim Noah; first, he is anything but orthodox, two, he has a lot of fun playing basketball and competing, and three, he’s a winner. Billy Donovon, his college coach, describes why: "He's just a great competitor, teammate, warrior. He's about all the right things." From his rookie year, the Bulls showed steady improvement until Derrick Rose’s injury in 2011 derailed them. At first he was a role player. An energy guy getting rebounds, playing defense and scoring when the opportunities were there only. He developed into an all-NBA defender in 2011 and since the Rose injury he’s taken on the role of leader and becoming an MVP candidate. He’s posted his best two statistical seasons across the board the last two years as he expanded his game including an outstanding 5.4 assists per game last year, easily tops among centers. He was even named defensive player of the year in 2014. What makes Noah so good is what makes him so unique. He thrives at the parts of the game few players pay adequate attention to: Defensive positioning, ball security, setting screens, offensive rebounding, passing, Noah plays the game like a throwback. But he’s also a little out there, just ask his teammates, like Carlos Boozer; "He's different; he grew up different, he's a very free spirit and it works for him." Or as Taj Gibson put it simply; “He’s a weirdo.” His side spinning jump shot, dubbed “the Tornado”, also weird has evolved into a major weapon from 18 feet and in. His post game has improved and his role in the Bulls offense last year was even larger then some all-star point guards. (in terms of touches) If the Bulls ever get their current core healthy, it’s gonna be real exciting. Without a title in the NBA so far, Noah is still driven to continue improving. He seems committed to the Bulls and is resolved that all these struggles will only make it sweeter. "Everything that we're going through is just going to make us enjoy our championship ring that much more when we get it," Noah said. "And there's no doubt in my mind that we'll get it."

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http://cbsatlanta.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/163283780.jpg
#162 Blake Austin Griffin

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 4 (4)
Primary Role(s): #2 on middle of the pack playoff teams
Prime Averages: 21-10-4-1-1 on 53/64

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-A run of three straight modern players who rather conveniently finished 4th, 5th, 6th in last years MVP voting. These represent some of the games best young players and especially in the case of Blake Griffin, most exciting players as well. After being drafted first overall by the Los Angeles Franchise not called the Lakers in 2009 and missing his entire rookie season with injury, it seemed the Clipper curse would live on. But the next year fate, and David Stern stepped in. The league voided a trade that would have sent Chris Paul to the Lakers and instead he ended up with the Clippers, who were transformed from afterthought to possible contenders. Griffin who had won the rookie of the year in 2011 Dunking his way through a losing season but establishing himself as a marketable star with his Dunk Contest performance. He made the all-star that season and has each year of his career so far. His resume gets even more impressive when you add two MVP top tens (3rd last year) and three second team all-NBA selections already. In the playoffs he’s had his issues, being bullied by Zach Randolph in 2012, playing hurt, but ineffectively in the 2013 playoffs, but last year (2013-14) he took a big step. Averaging 24/10/4 and shooting 53% from the field while topping 70% from the line for the first time. He had his best playoffs, but the Clippers still came up short in the second round against Oklahoma City. After the series, Thunder coach Scott Brooks paid Griffin a compliment : "When Chris Paul went out, you saw that he took his game to another level. You also saw his leadership. It's one thing to put numbers up but you have to put numbers up by leading and helping your team win, and that's what he did. He won a lot of games without him. He's going to be an MVP candidate for many years. He's a young player that has improved every year he's been in the league, and that's what you want your players to do." He’s not just a dunker anymore, I hope the league is on notice, because so long as Blake and Chris Paul are in LA the Clippers are going to be a force.

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G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 08:58 PM

Really interested to see if/where you place Brad Daugherty!

Wait no longer...

G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 08:59 PM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-peIjkd0l-cw/UQAN_LP93LI/AAAAAAAAAqs/trX51RTWB8E/s1600/554245_10151259340251385_1484423122_n.jpg
#161 Brad Daugherty

Tier Classification: Stars: Brief Prime
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 8 (6)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on middle of the pack playoff teams
Prime Averages: 19-10-4-1 on 54/76

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Watching Brad Daugherty growing up I could help but think

magnax1

07-26-2014, 09:09 PM

I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.

G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 09:16 PM

I never really thought of Peja all that far off from someone like Ray Allen but now that I look at it Peja really only had half as many all star level seasons as Ray.

Maybe even one third as many.

Had Ray's career ended in Seattle in 2007, he was Peja range, a bit higher probably, but top-100 at best.

His late career was Reggie Miller-esque. Raised his ranking a lot I believe.

What do you think?

Any other players who raised themselves late in their careers?

Malone and Stockton stand out...

Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
Robert Parish? Steve Nash? Dirk? KG?

magnax1

07-26-2014, 10:03 PM

Maybe even one third as many.

Had Ray's career ended in Seattle in 2007, he was Peja range, a bit higher probably, but top-100 at best.

His late career was Reggie Miller-esque. Raised his ranking a lot I believe.

What do you think?
That's probably pretty fair. I don't think it's quite reggie Miller level though. Reggie was a similar caliber of player at 35 as he was at 25, which I wouldn't say of Ray Allen.

Any other players who raised themselves late in their careers?
Kobe has impressed me in terms of longevity. Only really him Malone and Kareem have had 14 or more seasons where they were top 10 in the league. At least that I can think of.
I was fond of the way Kidd reinvented himself, and the Mavs owe their championship to his ability to run that offense effectively in 11 (which is something that never gets mentioned) In fact I was more fond of the way he played at the end of his career.

Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
I've never been fond of Noah. I think he's a glorified hustle guy, and his defense is very over rated to me. Of course compared to other guys who get you 12-10 or whatever he's great, but there are lots and lots of center I'd take over him.
I think Blake deserves a bump. He's not quite that tier with Duncan and Dirk and Barkley and those other guys but he's knocked on the door last season (and Im talking about just that one season). He had a much less disappointing playoffs than usual too.
Harden has put up some very empty stats in my mind. Even if you look past his defense, which is definitely among the worst in the league, he really has fallen short in all of his playoffs. He definitely disappeared last year despite Dwight giving them a real chance to advance, and he was worthless in stretches of that finals run in OKC.

Robert Parish? Steve Nash? Dirk? KG?
Parish is hard to say. Probably top 50. I'd have to think about it, but he was great early in boston, and he lasted forever. Possibly at some point the third best center in the league.
Nash is at least top 35 probably. He's one of the best offensive players ever. I think two of his phoenix teams were statistically top 10 offenses ever when adjusted in a season by season basis. 4 in the top 20. I think the only other guys who have done that are Jordan, Stockton & Malone, and Magic. If he had any sort of impact in terms of rebounding or defense he would've been a top 20 player IMO, and that's really the only reason his teams kept losing. They never kept up in those categories despite being dominant on offense.
Dirk I'd say is similar to Nash. I'm sure people will say his championship separates him, but they really aren't different in impact. I mean, Dirk also never contributed much except his offense, and I don't think he was as good on that side as Nash. He was a good, but not elite rebounder for a few years. He never changed games by getting boards like Shaq or Duncan did in the same era, and by the time he was a champion Dwyane Wade was getting as many rebounds as him in the playoffs. Of course Dirk had his best season since 2011 last year, so I'd say he has plenty of chance for improvement if he puts up a couple more borderline top 10 in the league seasons.
KG is top 20. I think I have him at like 15. He's a top 10 defender ever, head of arguably the best defense ever in 08 Boston, one of the best passers ever at his position, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, gets your 20-25 points, will fit with literally any team you put him on, can play Center to Small forward, can guard 3 positions, and maybe shooting guard too if it's a good matchup. His 04 seasons is probably the best ever by a power forward in my mind. Not a dominant scorer, but dominant in every other way. Kind of similar to Russell in that sense.

G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 10:07 PM

That's probably pretty fair. I don't think it's quite reggie Miller level though. Reggie was a similar caliber of player at 35 as he was at 25, which I wouldn't say of Ray Allen.

Kobe has impressed me in terms of longevity. Only really him Malone and Kareem have had 14 or more seasons where they were top 10 in the league. At least that I can think of.
I was fond of the way Kidd reinvented himself, and the Mavs owe their championship to his ability to run that offense effectively in 11 (which is something that never gets mentioned) In fact I was more fond of the way he played at the end of his career.

I've never been fond of Noah. I think he's a glorified hustle guy, and his defense is very over rated to me. Of course compared to other guys who get you 12-10 or whatever he's great, but there are lots and lots of center I'd take over him.
I think Blake deserves a bump. He's not quite that tier with Duncan and Dirk and Barkley and those other guys but he's knocked on the door last season (and Im talking about just that one season). He had a much less disappointing playoffs than usual too.
Harden has put up some very empty stats in my mind. Even if you look past his defense, which is definitely among the worst in the league, he really has fallen short in all of his playoffs. He definitely disappeared last year despite Dwight giving them a real chance to advance, and he was worthless in stretches of that finals run in OKC.

Parish is hard to say. Probably top 50. I'd have to think about it, but he was great early in boston, and he lasted forever. Possibly at some point the third best center in the league.
Nash is at least top 35 probably. He's one of the best offensive players ever. I think two of his phoenix teams were statistically top 10 offenses ever when adjusted in a season by season basis. 4 in the top 20. I think the only other guys who have done that are Jordan, Stockton & Malone, and Magic. If he had any sort of impact in terms of rebounding or defense he would've been a top 20 player IMO, and that's really the only reason his teams kept losing. They never kept up in those categories despite being dominant on offense.
Dirk I'd say is similar to Nash. I'm sure people will say his championship separates him, but they really aren't different in impact. I mean, Dirk also never contributed much except his offense, and I don't think he was as good on that side as Nash. He was a good, but not elite rebounder for a few years. He never changed games by getting boards like Shaq or Duncan did in the same era, and by the time he was a champion Dwyane Wade was getting as many rebounds as him in the playoffs. Of course Dirk had his best season since 2011 last year, so I'd say he has plenty of chance for improvement if he puts up a couple more borderline top 10 in the league seasons.
KG is top 20. I think I have him at like 15. He's a top 10 defender ever, head of arguably the best defense ever in 08 Boston, one of the best passers ever at his position, one of the best rebounders ever at his position, gets your 20-25 points, will fit with literally any team you put him on, can play Center to Small forward, can guard 3 positions, and maybe shooting guard too if it's a good matchup. His 04 seasons is probably the best ever by a power forward in my mind. Not a dominant scorer, but dominant in every other way. Kind of similar to Russell in that sense.

Thanks man, really good response.

We think so much differently but I love hearing your perspective because it makes me consider things from a different angle.

Care to do a quick breakdown of KG, Malone, Barkley ranking them in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense with a few thoughts plus an overall general ranking?

RRR3

07-26-2014, 10:11 PM

GOAT, I'm curious...

Do you already have all the spots decided or are you thinking it over day by day?

And, how much longer do you think it will take you to finish this? I'm excited for the top 100, and especially top 50/25/10.

Finally, have you done this on ISH before? I couldn't find any threads from past years.

L.Kizzle

07-26-2014, 10:18 PM

I'm surprised to see Noah on this list and above some other current bigs like his former teammate Boozer and past bigs like Buck Williams. And I like Noah.

Groza teammate Spivey was a star in the Eastern league along with other NBA rejects like Hal Lear and John Chaney.

G.O.A.T

07-26-2014, 10:20 PM

GOAT, I'm curious...

Do you already have all the spots decided or are you thinking it over day by day?

I have a list, over 1000 players with 25 columns of criteria, but it's constantly fluid. I don't make a lot of regular changes during the list process here because I spend most of time editing and adding to their mini-bios I've written.

And, how much longer do you think it will take you to finish this? I'm excited for the top 100, and especially top 50/25/10.

Well so far I'm going at a pretty fast clip. In 12 days I've coverd over 60 players more than five a day. At that pace I'll be done in a little over a month. Depending on how good the debate/conversation gets once we get into the top 100, I'd say anywhere from Mid-September to Early October as a finish point. I will have it done before the tip-off of the 2014-15 season.

Finally, have you done this on ISH before? I couldn't find any threads from past years.

The original thread was in 2009, there were some additions from there, a short lived update in 2012 and there is another thread with my updated top 100 from 2011 ish somewhere. Here's the links I could find.

Original Thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143465)

Very short 2012 update starts at page 108.

Updated top 100 2011 list (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268753), released before 2012 off-season editing.

I'm surprised to see Noah on this list and above some other current bigs like his former teammate Boozer and past bigs like Buck Williams. And I like Noah.

I may have gone too high here, prisoner of the moment stuff. But he was damn good last year. A better year than Buck or Boozer ever had, still in terms of career, I surely see their case over him.

Groza teammate Spivey was a star in the Eastern league along with other NBA rejects like Hal Lear and John Chaney.

I'd love any info you have on them via PM. I have a few books, but even they barely touch on the Eastern League.

magnax1

07-26-2014, 10:38 PM

Thanks man, really good response.

We think so much differently but I love hearing your perspective because it makes me consider things from a different angle.

Care to do a quick breakdown of KG, Malone, Barkley ranking them in scoring, rebounding, passing, defense with a few thoughts plus an overall general ranking?
Sure.
Scoring, I'd definitely say Barkley's first. Not only did he put up volume, but he was insanely efficient (lead the league in TS% four years running) and I think he was one of those guys like Shaq who's scoring stats don't do them justice even if the numbers were great on their own. Second is probably Malone. Great scorer, but more in the flow of the offense which hurt him late in games and in the playoffs. There are a couple playoff series where he just couldn't get a shot up and the Jazz lost it because of that. KG is three. Probably could've scored more if he wanted to, but he didn't like playing in the post where he was probably most effective for whatever reason. Very good second scoring option ideally.
Rebounding I'd say Barkley has a very slight advantage over KG. Honestly they're more or less equal, and I might say something different tommorow. I think the only difference is Barkley was still getting 12 rebounds a game his last couple years, where Boston struggled with rebounding after 08 because KG lost his ability with his athleticism. Malone was a very good but not great rebounder. His rebounding ability probably lasted longer than KG too, but he was never dominant.
Passing Ill give to KG by a little bit. KG was fantastic at keeping everyone moving from up top. He basically ran the offense in Minnesota for stretches. Barkley was more of an inside out guy and was nearly as good in terms of impact but wasn't quite the natural passer KG was. Malone was an idiot sometimes in terms of passing early in his career, but by the time he was getting to the finals I'd say he was basically Barkley's equal. All three are some of the best passers at their position ever.
Defense I'd say is definitely going to KG. He's the best pick and roll defender ever, and one of the best 5 defenders ever in my mind. All the way up to age 34 or 35 I'd say he had an argument for best defender in the league, and he was much better in his late 20s. He could guard all sorts of players, and he kept moving around the court. Malone is definitely second. I'd say he improved at this as his career went on too, though he was always a very very good defender. Barkley had some value as a defender early in his career. Not conventionally, because he always made mistakes and didn't really give a full effort, but he created problems for an offense by creating havoc with steals and blocks, and he could guard most positions.
Overall I'd say Kevin Garnett has a healthy lead at first, I think Barkley is clearly better in his prime, than Malone, but then you have to ask would you want 6 years of Barkleys prime with another 5 or so all star seasons tacked on or a guy who was an all star 17 maybe even 18 years with 14 or more a top ten player in the league. I've actually changed my mind on the subject a lot. They both had equal shots at a championship 93 and 97 for Barkley with maybe 95 and 97, 98 for Malone with maybe 04. I think I'd pick Malone, because if you have 14 years of a top ten player, you're going to have tons of chance at a championship, but really it's a toss up.
Wow that ended up being pretty long....
Oh and I'd say KG is about 15 ever, Barkley and Malone in the 25-30 range.

L.Kizzle

07-26-2014, 10:52 PM

I started watching ball the season Brad D. retired. So i just missed him. However I do remember him on NBA Jam. He came into the league when Kareem Moses amd Parish were still all stars and left with Shaq Deke and Mourning entering the league.

G.O.A.T

07-27-2014, 08:19 AM

http://alwaysntrestn.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/joe-johnson.jpg
#159 Joe Marcus Johnson

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):
Primary Role(s): #1/#2/#3 on solid playoff teams
Prime Averages: 21-4-5-1 on 45/36/81

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-I don’t know who I blame more. Phoenix for being cheap and foolish or Johnson for being petty and holding a grudge. The Suns should have locked him up along with Nash, Marion and Stoudemire in 2005 and had the best core in the West for the next four years. But they didn't. Johnson went to Atlanta, played on a good but not great team, showed flashes of stardom but ultimately was just a good scorer and all-star level player. Johnson was drafted by the Celtics in 2001 and quickly traded for a guy who played at Kentucky, making it feel like Rick Pitino was still there. In Phoenix, the sharpshooting Johnson showed gradual improvement and in 2004-05 when Steve Nash arrived, the Suns took off. Johnson had the best year of his career averaging 17/5/4 on 46/48/75. He seemed set for life as a spot-up shooter and backup ball handler for the Suns. But he wanted more, he needed respect, so he signed with the Hawks in 2005. In Atlanta he posted the best numbers of his career and played the major role as the Hawks went from 23 to 30 to 37 to 47 to 53 wins in his first five seasons. They made the playoffs five straight years, reaching the second round in 2009, ‘10 and ‘11. Johnson however saw his production drop in each postseason and questions were being raised. From there both Johnson and the Hawks took a step down. Teamed with Josh Smith and Al Horford, the Hawks were good, but not legit contenders. Something needed to change. The attrition began with Johnson in 2012. He moved on to Brooklyn. Last season Johnson had the best postseason of his career at age 32. He averaged 21 ppg on 53/42/84 shooting. Perhaps he’s back in a comfortable role as a complimentary star and not the centerpiece. Time will tell, but with seven all-star selections and an all-NBA nod in 2010 plus a 25-4-4 season under his belt, Johnson is already an all-time NBA great, just not among the greatest.

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http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/07/75/06/2085286/7/628x471.jpg
#158 Baron Walter Louis Davis

Tier Classification: Stars: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (5)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on Borderline Playoff Teams
Prime Averages: 20-4-8-2 on 41/32/72

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-It’s always fun rooting for the underdog and after Baron Davis posted 33 points 14 rebounds and 8 assists as the eighth seeded Warriors upset the top seeded Mavericks in game one of their first round playoff series in 2007, the bandwagon started filling real fast. Dallas had won the West the year before and had the MVP, a 7-foot German Forward, the Warriors hadn't won a playoff series in almost twenty years and barely had a guy above 6’7” in their rotation. After splitting the next two Dallas jumped on Golden State early in game four, went up by double digits even, but after Davis hit a half court buzzer beater to tie the halftime score, it seemed like destiny was stepping in. Davis finished the game with 33-8-4 on 12-17 shooting and the Warriors were on their way to a major upset. Most of you probably remember that as well as I do, fewer are likely to remember the other time Davis carried a team over a superstar to a playoff series win. Five years prior to winning with the Warriors, Davis created a buzz in the final season of Charlotte Hornets basketball. Despite having the home court advantage, when all-star forward Jamal Mashburn was unable to play for the playoffs many thought Orlando would advance easily. Game one was an all-time who wants it less game, and considering that Davis scored the last of his and the Hornets points with 2:30 to play and put them up by four, you’d think they’d have been down 1-0, but they won 80-79. After the Magic took game two they seemed like a lock to steal the series. That set up an all-time early round playoff duel when McGrady and Davis went head to head in a classic third game. A thrilling game came down to a tie with 0.7 seconds to play. Davis came off a screen on a side out of bounds, caught the ball at the top right wing and banked in a three just before the buzzer. It didn’t count though because Bernie Fryer was too busy waving off to realize it should have ended the game. His blown call would not deter Davis and the Hornets though they rolled through overtime and won by ten. Davis finished with 33-14-10 edging out McGrady’s 37-7-5 and follow it up with a game four 28-11-10 to send the Hornets into the second round. That’s why Baron Davis so fascinating. He could have been one of the best, but injuries and poor decision making made him one of the rest. In 2002 and 2007 we saw an elite player. Had he had health and focus and motivation every year, he could have Dwyane Wade or Russell Westbrook. But he was Baron Davis and even that was pretty damn good.

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L.Kizzle

07-28-2014, 08:50 PM

Joe Johnson is Mr consistent. You know what you're gonna get from him year in and year out.

B. DIDDY is the complete opposite. GSW Diddy vs. Dallas or LA Clippers B Diddy. Charlotte vs. Orlando or NYKs.

NuggetsFan

07-28-2014, 09:13 PM

L.A. Jazz

07-29-2014, 04:29 AM

i looked back at your list in the previous years and John Stockton dropped 20 spots. lets wait and see if he is now out of your top 50.

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 08:39 AM

How is Marion so low???

And ray should definitely be ahead of Reggie.

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 08:43 AM

http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributematerial/PlayerMaterial/LouieDampier/DampierDriveErvingNice.jpg
#194 Louie Dampier

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (8)
Primary Role(s): Best player on ABA playoff teams, 3rd Best player on ABA contenders
Prime Averages: 20-3-6 on 44/36/83

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-More than any other player, Louie Dampier's career was missed by basketball fans because of the ABA. Though he did play three NBA seasons, they were late in his career, into his thirties and as a backup for the San Antonio Spurs. But starting with the league and 1967 and seeing it through it's final season in 1976 Dampier played in 822 ABA games for the Kentucky Colonels. He is the ABA's all-time leader in games, minutes played and three-point field goals. For good measure he is also the ABA's all-time leading scorer and assist man. Dampier played his college ball at Kentucky along with Pat Riley. Both were a part of the 1966 team that lost the Championship game to all-Black Texas Western. Drafted by the Royals in the NBA, Dampier opted to join the new ABA and play in his home state. He would make seven all-star teams, four times he was an all-ABA selection. He averaged as many as 26 points a game, poured in 55 one night including 11 threes, and at age 30, he contributed 18 points and 8 assists a night during the Colonels playoff run to their only Championship.

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http://sportsofboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/030410_michael_finley.jpg
#193 Michael Howard Finley

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2 on playoff team/#5 on Championship Team
Prime Averages: 21-5-4-1 on 45/38/82

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-There seems to be a distinct lack of Michael Finley type players in the league today. Seemingly the perfect piece for a team, he is athletic, efficent can score inside and out, defend and he almost never turns it over. An off guard with his skill set putting up the type of numbers he did would be an all-star and/or all-NBA lock today. However a decade ago Finley couldn't break into the elite group. For Finley his climb to NBA stardom started in Phoenix as a role player, when he signed with Dallas it was to get an opportunity for more playing time. During his very best seasons from 1998 to 2001 he played more minutes than any other NBA player. He made two all-star teams and was regularly receiving minimal MVP votes. He was the first piece to the puzzle in turning the Mavericks franchise around. After he was in place, Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki, traded for Juwan Howard, signed Steve Nash and the rest is history. After five consecutive 50-win seasons, but only one conference finals trip, the Mavericks decided to reshape their roster and Finley signed with Texas rival and defending NBA Champion San Antonio. After the Spurs lost to the Mavericks in the 2006 playoffs and watched Dallas advance to the Finals, Finley and his teammates were hungry. Accepting a smaller role as the fifth starter and playing just under 30 minutes per game, Finley brought shooting, defense and that hunger for a title to the table as the Spurs won it all in 2007.

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It doesn't effect the ranking or piece itself but Dallas traded for finley and Nash(obviously in different deals) they didn't sign with dallas

G.O.A.T

07-29-2014, 09:09 AM

It doesn't effect the ranking or piece itself but Dallas traded for finley and Nash(obviously in different deals) they didn't sign with dallas

Thank you.

How is Marion so low???

How much higher would you have him?

The exact rankings aren't real important when you get this high up, more trying to group them with similarly skilled/accomplished players.

G.O.A.T

07-29-2014, 10:10 AM

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/10/10/1007_broke_athletes/image/06_spreewell_ray_amati_5672.jpg
#157 Latrell Fontaine Sprewell

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (9)
Primary Role(s): #1 on bad teams/#2 on playoff teams/#3 on contenders
Prime Averages: 19-4-4-1 on 43/34/80

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]It

G.O.A.T

07-29-2014, 11:14 AM

http://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/arnie-risen.jpg
#155 Arnold D. Risen

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (10)
Primary Role(s): #2 on contenders
Prime Averages: 14/11/2 on 38/70

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-Risen’s career dates back to 1945 in the NBL. He played three seasons in the league, earned all-league honors in 1947 and came to the NBA with the Royals for the 1948-49 season. A skilled big man with enough toughness for the time and enough grace for the post-shot clock era where he became an effective back-up center playing into his mid-thirties. It was with the Royals in the early NBA days that Risen really made his mark. Led by Bob Davies the Royals were the toughest competition for the juggernaut that was the Minneapolis Lakers and their center George Mikan. Mikan was taller than Risen and outweighed him by at least fifty pounds, but Risen was faster and though he could not stop Mikan, he could make him work on both ends of the court. The Royals lost to the Lakers in 1949 and were upset by the Pistons in 1950, but in 1951 a leg injury to Mikan opened the door for the Royals and they walked right past the Lakers into the NBA Finals. There against the Knicks, Risen played some of the finest basketball of his career. Unlike to gigantic Mikan, the Knicks had a pair on 6’6” centers in Harry Gallatin and Sweetwater Clifton. Risen took advantage. He scored 22 points, grabbed 15 rebounds and dished out 5 assists as the Royals routed the Knicks in game one. Game two more of the same 19 points for Risen, 24 for Davies and another easy Rochester win. Game three: Risen goes for 27 and 17, he’s averaging 23 and 16 for the series and the Royals are one win away from the title. The Knicks battled back valiantly, forced a game seven, but there Rochester was too much. Risen had 24 points and 13 rebounds in the deciding game and Rochester won 79-75.

Risen would average 22 points 16 rebounds and 3 assists for the series, remarkable numbers considering the teams were averaging only 80 ppg. Following the Championship season Risen would make four consecutive all-star teams for Rochester who remained competitive, but never returned to the Finals. In 1955, with the Royals coming off a losing season in the new shot clock era, Risen was sold to the Boston Celtics. After starting for one season, Risen moved to the bench once Bill Russell arrived. As a back-up, he won his second ring when Boston raised the trophy in 1957. He played sparingly in 1958 and after the Celtics lost in the 1958 Finals, Risen retired. They called him stilts for his gangly appearance and seeming inability to gain weight, but Risen was considered an enforcer in the early league. Bob Cousy describes him as “A sweet man with a surprisingly vicious competitive side.”

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http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0608/nba_g_rondo1_576.jpg
#154 Rajon Rondo

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 8 (4)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on contenders/#4 on Champion
Prime Averages: 13-5-10-2 on 49/61

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-Maybe it takes a guy who sees the world differently to play the game the way Rajon Rondo does. Or maybe Rondo is just another one in the long line of enigmatic personalities which seem to find their way into the NBA more often than you might expect. Basketball is so appealing to many for it’s unique nuances and the delicate balance that characterize it. It is a game on individual and team skill both constantly connected to each other and without understanding the balance and how to thrive within it, it will without discrimination conquer you. The quiet, thoughtful Rondo, who can come off as aloof or in his own world, thrives under such a construct. From the time his career began, thrust into the spotlight in his second year, an unproven entity amongst a hall of fame trio hellbent on a Championship, Rondo has refused to be predictable. It seemed likely that he would fail as point guard in Boston, at least initially. There was much debate about which veteran point guard would be acquired to replace him. But he held on to the reigns of the big Green machine, even when Sam Cassell was brought aboard, and played a crucial role in Boston’s winning of it’s 17th Championship, a full 22 years after the previous banner was raised. From there, with the luxury of having those three great players around, Rondo’s game was given room t grow and he took off.

He went from 11-5 in the title season to 12-8 and an all-defensive second team selection the next year. In the playoffs, without Garnett, Rondo may have been the Celtics best player averaging 17-10-10-3 in a performance that drew comparisons to a young Magic Johnson. Then 14-10 and a first team all-defensive pick in 2010. He made the all-star team and had another outstanding playoffs; 16-6-9-2 en route to the NBA Finals. In 2011 he made his second straight all-star game, set a career high 11.2 assists per game and led the league in steals. 2012 saw Rondo win the assist title at nearly 12 a game, make the all-NBA team and finish eighth in the MVP voting. In the playoffs he demonstrated why, playing hurt and leading the Celtics to the Eastern Conference Finals for the third time in five seasons. 17-7-12-2 and shooting nearly 50% from the field and 70% the line. Best of his career. That’s really the last we’ve seen of Rondo though. Injuries and a transition stage for the Celtics have kept him out of the lineup for almost 100 games the last two seasons. When he returns he will be a key piece, either as trade bait or as the point guard for the Celtics team that hunts for title number eighteen. He is the strangest type of player, team mates love playing with him, but rarely love being around him off the court. He is a leader by example, but not one to say the right thing at the right time very often. His former coach Doc Rivers explains: "Not everyone understand it, but he has a gift, He has vision and feel, not only for what's going on, but for the team. He's a quarterback or great catcher. He has the ability to sense not only that moment, but the plays or stuff we should be running. He just has an incredible basketball IQ. It's like having another coach on the floor."

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Gotterdammerung

07-29-2014, 12:10 PM

Thanks, one day. I want to do a real good job though, I don't want to produce bad art. I'd have to stop critiquing everything.

I love seeing so many of you guys from the first thread five years ago popping in to say hello. Wish people like you were around here posting content and comments more often.

Thanks again for the compliment and support and rest assured that until the day you do me the honor of buying my book, all my scraps and half thoughts will be filtered for bullshit here on ish.
Apologies. My own passion project (graphic novel) takes away most of the free time I used to have for posting here more often, especially in your old top 25 position player threads. :cheers:

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 12:24 PM

Baron Davis was an animal in those playoffs. Warriors were the 8th seed, Mavs 1st seed. That Warriors team completely shit on the Mavs season. Dirk got the MVP, Mavs won the most games in the entire league and than get bounced in the 1st round :oldlol:

GS's crowd was ridiculous.
That's what happens when you have the worst coach in the nba.

As for how high I'd have Marion goat, hes got to be in the top 100 and at the very least above Ron freaking artest.

Some Shawn Marion career notes. Made more threes than Steve Kerr, Matt bonner and Jose Calderon(this won't be true anymore for Calderon after next year). More rebounds than Larry bird, Dwight howard(this wont be true after next year either) Dave debuscher, bob Lanier and dirk. Top 40(35) all time in rebounds. More steals than Eddie jones, Ron artest and doc rivers. Top 20(17)all time in steals. More blocks than Tyson chandler, Karl Malone or Bob mcadoo. Soon to be top 50 all time(51 needs 20 for 50) Scored more points than Steve Nash, Tiny archibald, Joe Johnson, bob cousy, Chris webber and Kevin mchale. Top 75 all time(75, and jet is 74 and Nash is 76 interestingly) if he stays healthy next year and or plays another year after that, he'll pass some BIG names on the scoring list.

So he's top 20 in steals, top 40 in rebounds, top 50 in blocks and top 75 in scoring but he's only in the 180s all time?

G.O.A.T

07-29-2014, 12:37 PM

That's what happens when you have the worst coach in the nba.

As for how high I'd have Marion goat, hes got to be in the top 100 and at the very least above Ron freaking artest.

Some Shawn Marion career notes. Made more threes than Steve Kerr, Matt bonner and Jose Calderon(this won't be true anymore for Calderon after next year). More rebounds than Larry bird, Dwight howard(this wont be true after next year either) Dave debuscher, bob Lanier and dirk. Top 40(35) all time in rebounds. More steals than Eddie jones, Ron artest and doc rivers. Top 20(17)all time in steals. More blocks than Tyson chandler, Karl Malone or Bob mcadoo. Soon to be top 50 all time(51 needs 20 for 50) Scored more points than Steve Nash, Tiny archibald, Joe Johnson, bob cousy, Chris webber and Kevin mchale. Top 75 all time(75, and jet is 74 and Nash is 76 interestingly) if he stays healthy next year and or plays another year after that, he'll pass some BIG names on the scoring list.

So he's top 20 in steals, top 40 in rebounds, top 50 in blocks and top 75 in scoring but he's only in the 180s all time?

It's certainly something to consider. Especially when the information is presented this way.

Of the four factors I consider, Longevity is last behind, Absolute and Extended Peak and Prime Years. However I can say that I did feel like Marion (along with Kenon and Nance, Aguirre and Buck Williams) needed to be up higher after doing these most recent bios from my updated notes.

I have already started regrouping all the players from tier 11-19

I suspect Marion may end around 140 or so...

You would still have him higher, but I wonder if you will change your mind once the rest of the guys around that level are revealed.

Be curious to see what you think as that portion of the list draws nearer. How you stick around and let me know what you think.

Thanks and go Tech!

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 12:44 PM

I think you are the first person who remembers that the raider in my name means red raiders and not Oakland raiders.

I've always seen Marion higher than most because I never thought he was just a Nash creation. Sure the pace helped the numbers but that's been true of alot of guys and he was a 19-11 player 2 years before Nash got there. There just aren't that many people who could have gone 22-12-2-2 with so few turnovers which was his peak along with what should have been all nba defense.

jayfan

07-29-2014, 12:50 PM

Shawn Marion should not be ranked higher than Mark Aguirre.

.

magnax1

07-29-2014, 12:58 PM

Shade8780

07-29-2014, 01:03 PM

Rondoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooo!!!!

L.Kizzle

07-29-2014, 01:34 PM

That seem really low for Rondo to me. Guys who do as much as him in the playoffs deserve a lot more credit than Sprewell or Johnson. Hes averaged 16-7-10 in the playoffs since 09, and has had some all time great games for PGs like his 29-18-13 against cleveland in 10 or 44-8-10 against miami in 12. Guys like that are top 100 to me.
Rondo is not top 100 yet. He's not up to par with the Billups or Parkers yet. His last 2 seas9ns have been absent basically.

Can't see him in top 100 over guards like even a Terry Porter yet. Yet.

SHAQisGOAT

07-29-2014, 01:36 PM

Good shit :applause: :applause: Not saying I agree with all of it, it would be hard to tell exactly also though, but great work man :applause: Looking forward for the full list.

L.Kizzle

07-29-2014, 01:40 PM

I agree with Marion. I'd switch him and Peja.

salwan

07-29-2014, 01:42 PM

I agree with my two colleagues above, but I'm a Rondo Stan, haha.

When it comes to passing/vision, he's one of the all-timers (also statistically speaking). And he's not too shabby at rebounding and defense at his position either. His 6th gear come playoffs time was already mentioned.

Great thread. Appreciate the work

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 02:11 PM

magnax1

07-29-2014, 02:17 PM

Rondo is not top 100 yet. He's not up to par with the Billups or Parkers yet. His last 2 seas9ns have been absent basically.

Can't see him in top 100 over guards like even a Terry Porter yet. Yet.
Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 02:39 PM

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.
No one will agree with you because you are wrong. I understand having certain guys way higher than other people do but rondo isn't anywhere close to billups or Parker historically.

L.Kizzle

07-29-2014, 02:44 PM

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.
Yet. They've been around longer and done much more. He'll get there.

Gotterdammerung

07-29-2014, 02:48 PM

Also Magnax and anyone else....what do you think of the ranking of the three current players in this recent group...Harden, Noah, Blake?
G?
It's nearly impossible to correctly rank guys playing today along with the past greats, because you're caught between ranking them according to their career accomplishments, which puts them too low, making your list awfully dated, or ranking them according to future potential and doing a disservice to everyone else who actually did retire.
:durantunimpressed:

G.O.A.T

07-29-2014, 10:40 PM

How exactly is griffin already ahead of Marion? He has one season of being able to create for himself, something Marion admittedly didn't do, but Marion was a much better defender, shooter at least an equivalent rebounder and he did it for a lot longer.

Griffin has 3 all-NBA second teams selections and a 3rd place in the MVP voting. He's a different level of player than Marion. We saw that for sure when Paul went out with injury last year and Blake stepped up big time. He may not have quite enough of a track record to be above a guy like Marion on second look, but it could certainly go either way depending on your value of peak vs. longevity.

It's nearly impossible to correctly rank guys playing today along with the past greats, because you're caught between ranking them according to their career accomplishments, which puts them too low, making your list awfully dated, or ranking them according to future potential and doing a disservice to everyone else who actually did retire.
:durantunimpressed:

I could be wrong, but I feel like I am getting better at ranking active players.

For me it starts with looking at them as if their career was over today. I try very hard to project good or bad momentum in their career into the rankings, but that can be hard.

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 11:10 PM

So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 11:23 PM

Ill take Rondo over billups any day, possibly parker too. Neither have done anything near what Rondo has done in the playoffs year after year. Of course Im sure no one will agree withme, as Ive always held rondo Iin much higher regard than most people but Iits hard to argue whith what hes done. Billups and parkers only case is longevity in my mind.
What exactly do you think rondo has done in the playoffs???

L.Kizzle

07-29-2014, 11:33 PM

raiderfan19

07-29-2014, 11:43 PM

You could give the rock to KG down on the block. Not Marion. Nash was taking it or handing off to Amare.
No argument. Kg is in a different class of player than Marion though it might surprise you to learn that Marion's career % of 2pt fgs that are assisted is 68.6 and kgs is 67.2. Not exactly a huge difference.

G.O.A.T

07-30-2014, 12:16 AM

So you are ranking griffin higher based on 20 games?

Not exactly, but that was the most important stretch of his career. It suggests he may be a franchise player, something Marion never even hinted at being. That's the basis for my ranking. Sort of like Bill Walton being above Robert Parish. One was good for a lot longer, but the other was great, even if just for a short while.

And btw I agree that griffin this year was probablu better than Marion ever was. The thing I find interesting is what in your mind separates Marion from say Kevin Garnett other than passing. Garnett was absolutely a better player and while he was certainly much better at creating his own offense(and offense for others) he was also never a guy who you could just give the ball to and say go to work.

I try very hard to rate players by a composite evaluation of their skills in individual areas of the game. I mean a guy like Billy Owens was a lot better overall player than say Mitch Richmond. Owens was a better passer, ball handler, on ball defender, help defender, rebounder, set better screens, all Richmond did better was shoot and score. Still I have no doubt which player had more impact. That's the KG versus Marion difference. Impact. Just look at KG's T-Wolves teams without another star player vs. Marions pre-Nash Suns with PG's like Kidd and Marbury as his sidekick and deeper rosters overall.

This is a massive undertaking and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I'm not trying to be a dick because it's a lot easier to point out the flaws in someone else's list than it is to make your own but I just don't see how you justify some of the guys I know are coming being ahead of Marion and I know that you are going to rank kg ahead of some guys who were much better at being "the man" because of his all around game and I'm just curious to hear your rationale.

I hope it will become more clear as the project goes on. Let me assure you I don't mind the criticisms and critiques. My list changes a lot every year, so obviously even I think I am wrong about a lot of my rankings. Once I get another 25-30 players listed, if you're up for it, make a list of the guys you'd have Marion above that I do not. That should allow us to better understand the things I value more or less than you do.

Thanks for all your contributions to all these threads. I do appreciate it greatly.

G.O.A.T

07-30-2014, 01:38 AM

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2073654_crop_650x440.jpg
#153 Ralph Lee Sampson Jr.

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 9 (3)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on contender
Prime Averages: 21-11-3-1-2

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-Your typical 7’4” power forward, Sampson could run and jump like a man a foot shorter, and maybe had he been 6’8” or 6’10” instead, his career would have lasted longer. Still for three plus seasons, two alongside Hakeem Olajuwon, the NBA got a glimpse of it’s future. Athletic big men with the mentalities of forwards and the skills of a guard. Imagine KG as Ralph Sampson 2.0. After the first attempt failed, the creators a perfect basketball machine said okay, we have to be more realistic, how about a guy 7’ with guard skills & athleticism instead of 7’4”. That was Ralph, his favorite habit was to grab a rebound and start the fast break. His body, coordinated as he was, seemed not to run but rather lunge down the court, a flailing mass of limbs that was harder to slow down than Ralph realized. Sampson was a legend before he ever played an NBA game, at Virginia he spent four years literally and figuratively towering over the competition, winning three National Player of the Year Awards. He was ready for the NBA by the time the freshman year was over. From the time he finished high school, NBA teams were knocking down his door, especially the Lakers and Celtics. When Red Auerbach, sure he had finally convinced Sampson to enter the draft in 1980 (where the Celtics had the top pick) found out Sampson was returning to school he was dumbfounded; 'It defies common sense. It's ridiculous. If he were an intellectual genius and was planning on being a surgeon then I'd buy it.''

When Sampson did finally come out of College, to say he was considered a sure thing would be an understatement. The Rockets who had traded Moses Malone the previous off-season won the coin flip for the top pick. It was such a foregone conclusion that they take Sampson that even commissioner Larry O'Brien had a joke when he announced sarcastically here's a “surprise”. SI ran a piece titled “It’s Just a Matter of Time” after Sampson had a lackluster preseason in 1983, declaring he would be the NBA’s next great Big Man not if, but when. However, and quickly, as is the trend with every superstar giant who comes along, the same people who built him up, began to tear him down for not reaching their expectations. The inevitable labels, of selfish, soft, not a winner. What seems clear now, separated from the moment is that Sampsons obvious talent was in need of refining, that is all. If anything his problem early on was wanting to do too much too soon. Though he had always preferred the jump shot or the dribble drive to a traditional post game, his refusal to develop a go-to-move in the post frustrated coaches and critics alike. As he said though; "(coach Bill) Fitch says he wants me to have one shot I can depend on nine times out of 10. Well, I want to do them all. I don't want just one shot. I want to shoot outside. I want to dribble the ball up and down the floor. Some of my teammates don't think I can do it. I know Fitch hollers to them to run and get it from me. But I can do it."

The real downfall for Sampson was as obvious as his talent. His body just couldn't keep doing what no other body that size could do. Injuries wrecked havoc on his career; there was a fall in Boston Garden, March 1986. His back absorbed the blow and his right leg went numb. Sampson shook it off, but seemingly continued to feel the effects. In February of 1987 playing against Denver he slipped on a wet spot and tore ligaments in his knee. He rushed back from surgery and hurt it again in 1988 and that same year he was traded to Golden State. From there it was a quick road downhill, he was never near the same player, oft injured and by 1991 his career was over.The fall in Garden may have accelerated the process, but if anyone had bothered to look closer, there were signs that Sampson’s body and athletic ability were already trending downward before he even left Virginia. Sampson blocked 157 shots in his Freshman year of College, and never approached that total again in his collegiate days and in the NBA (in terms of per game), his 197 blocks in 82 games (2.4/gm) of his rookie season was his highest pro career total as well and lower than any collegiate per game average. You could see the joints tightening up, the stress wearing him down.

During his rookie year Sampson played to mixed reviews, the talent was obvious but the results were not there for the team yet. Winning the rookie of the year seemed more like a relief than an accomplishment and even though he averaged 21 points, 11 rebounds and 2.4 blocks per game, people wanted more. The Rockets won the coin toss for the second straight year in 1984 and this time got the rights to Akeem Olajuwon out of Houston, another center. Some wondered if Olajuwon and Sampson could play together, but Bill Fitch was confident they could, Sampson was excited to move to power forward. A move coach Fitch praised him for; from SI... "Ralph knows all five spots completely," says Fitch. The coach is well aware that it is Sampson who has adjusted his game to fit Olajuwon's, not vice versa. Olajuwon was outstanding as was Sampson who lead the team with 22 points a night and added 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. The Rockets surprised many and won 48 games third best in the West. In the playoffs the Rockets were upset by the Jazz in round one. Sampson and Olajuwon figured to be too much even for the Jazz equipped with 7’4” shot blocking king Mark Eaton. But the Rockets blew a late lead in game five, despite Eaton being injured, they were done in by poor foul shooting and a rash of turnovers. Sampson was 3-8 from the line and committed six of their 21 turnovers, 16 in the second half. Even with the game ending in defeat, and the season ending prematurely the Towers had established that though they could be beaten for now, they could be dominant and soon. The next season would see that potential fulfilled.

The Rockets made a statement right out of the gate in 1985-86. They won 9 of their first 11 games and cruised to 51 wins. They seemed to be the most likely candidate to challenge the Lakers who had a streak of four consecutive Western Conference Championships and had won the World Championship in 1985. Though the Rockets were playing great basketball, they had lost their first three battles with the Lakers, Hakeem Olajuwon had struggled guard Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who had averaged over 40 points in those contests. The Rockets made an adjustment for the fourth game, putting Sampson on Jabbar and allowing Olajuwon to roam in the lane as a shot blocker, it worked. Jabbar had just 18 points, Sampson had 19, 17 rebounds and 9 assists and the Rockets finally beat LA. That win did wonders for their confidence, after steamrolling the Kings (with Sampson posting 20/11/3/2/2) and knocking off the Nuggets, last seasons Western Conference Runner-up 4-2, it was time for Showtime. The Lakers, veterans, experienced, hammered the Rockets in game with Kareem and Magic turning in dynamic performances. In the next contest Sampson played a game for the ages. 24 points, 16 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 blocks and the Rockets stole home court advantage. Games three and four in Houston were the Olajuwon showed, the second year center scored 75 points and the Rockets exhausted the Lakers taking a three games to one lead. In the fifth game, back in Los Angeles, the Lakers seemed like they were going to hang on a make it a series again. The Lakers led by 12 after one, seven at the half. They still led through three quarters despite Akeem Olajuwon’s 17 point barrage, now just by two. But after Olajuwon was ejected for punching Mitch Kupchak with four minutes to go, the Lakers felt sure they were headed back to Houston. With the game tied at 112 and time winding down Byron Scott missed a potential game winning jump and the Rockets secured possession with a timeout and just one second on the clock. On the ensuing inbounds, Rodney McCray threw a perfect pass to Sampson at the high post and in one motion Sampson, jumped, caught the ball, twisted and released it towards the rim. It hit the front, back and side of the rim and fell in, the Rockets were in the NBA Finals...Michael Cooper did not enjoy the moment.

In the Finals the Rockets ran into a buzzsaw. The ‘86 Celtics, often considered the greatest team ever, jumped on Houston in game one at the Garden. Sampson the hero in Los Angeles with 29 points and the most important shot of his career, was held to 2 points in Boston on 1-13 shooting. Game two was another Boston rout, but Houston and Sampson showed well in game three, a Rocket win behind 24 points and 22 rebounds from Ralph. The Celtics took game four and for all intents and purposes the series with it, Sampson again played valiantly. But in game five, despite the Houston win, Sampson was again cast as the villain, and this time rightfully so after he lost his cool and exploded upon 6’1” Jerry Sichting. To make matters worse, he was mocked afterwards; Sichting said of Sampson's attack that he didn't know whether "it was a punch or a mosquito bite. My three-year-old son hits harder." The Rockets bowed out in game six at the Boston Garden. The fans were relentless against Sampson and jubilant at having won their sixteenth NBA title. Sampson, seemingly defeated scored eight points. It was the beginning of the end.

(edited for space)

L.Kizzle

07-30-2014, 01:53 AM

Being fron Houston old school cats talk about Ralph Sampson more than they do Olajuwon.

Here's a question. If Sampson and the Rockets beat the Celtics in 86 does Sampson go down as a Bill Walton type instead of a Maurice Stokes type?

G.O.A.T

07-31-2014, 10:34 AM

http://jerrybembry.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/cassell.jpeg
#152 Sam James Cassell

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on borderline contenders/#5 on Title team
Prime Averages: 18-4-7-1 on 46/34/86

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Some players just have a knack for making things happen when it matters most. Unquestionably Sam Cassell is that type of guy. The ultra confident point guard bookended a 15 year career with Championships while playing for eight teams and making memorable impact on six on them. Combining fierce leadership with outstanding speed and quickness, a rock solid mid-range shot, a clever post post, the ability to get hot from three and steady play-making, Cassell thrived in the biggest moment with regularity. In his own words, "I just don't get nervous, I can't explain it." Starting his career in the right place at the right time he and Kenny Smith shared point guard duties for the back-to-back World Champion Rockets in 1994 and 1995. After being traded to Phoenix in 1996 (along with Robert Horry, Chucky Brown and mark Bryant) for Charles Barkley. An Unhappy Cassell played for Phoenix, Dallas and New Jersey in 1996-97. Ending up with the Nets, Cassell got his first opportunity to be a franchise point guard and averaged 19 points and 8 assists in 1998. The Nets were a surprise team and made the playoffs but Cassell was injured and made little impact in a three game postseason sweep. After spending the lockout shortened 1999 season recovering from injuries and being dealt to Milwaukee, Cassel helped the Bucks turn their fortunes around in 2000 and 2001 culminating in the team

L.Kizzle

07-31-2014, 04:24 PM

I still got my Cassell Rockets championship jersey.

G.O.A.T

08-01-2014, 12:32 AM

I still got my Cassell Rockets championship jersey.

Being fron Houston old school cats talk about Ralph Sampson more than they do Olajuwon.

Here's a question. If Sampson and the Rockets beat the Celtics in 86 does Sampson go down as a Bill Walton type instead of a Maurice Stokes type?

Glad I could send some love to Clutch City.

I don't think Sampson would have reached a Waltonesque Standard, but it certainly would have elevated him.

Beating the '86 Celtics would have had a greater impact on Hakeem. Add that to his resume and you're talking about a top six all-time guy.

The footage of those two together is some of my favorite in NBA history. Their combined size and athleticism with the energy only a man in his early twenties can possess...WOW. It was like nothing I've ever seen and nothing even approaches it today. I imagine Duncan and Garnett playing together in 1998 or Wilt and Russell in 1961. My brother mentioned the idea of pairing Kareem and McAdoo from 1974-1976, saying that, that would have secured Kareem's place as an all-time great (as in Greatest ever) put McAdoo into the NBA@50.

As it was, Houston was lucky to get two games, Boston was unbeatable that season.

houston

08-01-2014, 03:05 AM

I want to see where Walter Davis,Bobby Danridge, Chet Walker, end up

L.Kizzle

08-01-2014, 03:15 AM

I want to see where Walter Davis,Bobby Danridge, Chet Walker, end up
Chet probably around the 110-120 mark. Dandridge and Davis around 120-135 range. My guess.

L.A. Jazz

08-01-2014, 04:39 AM

L.Kizzle

08-01-2014, 04:55 AM

G.O.A.T

08-01-2014, 09:07 AM

Because of your Sam Cassell story i looked up his assist numbers (total and per game) and stumbled over the name Kevin Porter who won 4 assist titles in the 70s. i couldnt find him in your top 100. i know nothing about him. is he in your top 200?

Porter is like Marcus Camby of PGs but not on his level. Maybe Andre Miller. Slam 500 has him at 112. Like you I don't know much about him either. He made no all star games in his career in the late 70s when the guard spot was weak. Guys like Randy Smith and World B Free were all stars.

Maybe I'm wrong about him.

I have Kevin Porter in a group between 290-320 with guys like Jumpin' Johnny Green, Don Ohl, Archie Clark, Johnny Moore, Terrell Brandon and Fast Eddie Johnson.

Porter was an old school playground point guard. The kind who truly was pass first, pass second, pass third.

He was the starting PG for the Bullets in a back court with Phil Chenier when they went to the 1975 Finals, after being swept he was traded to Detroit for Dave Bing.

He led the league in assists all four years he was healthy and played 30 mpg. He was traded to the Pistons twice and didn't workout either time, even though he did have his best statistical season playing under Dick Vitale. Once, like the Mark Jackson Indiana/Denver trades, traded at the started of the season and reacquired the next season. Jerry Green, a Detroit Sports Legend, called him a "water bug with a great sense of sharing."

He joins Norm Van Lier, Archie Clark, Mickey Johnson and Dan Roundfield on my all-Black guys I bet you thought were white guys team.

L.Kizzle

08-01-2014, 09:29 AM

Was Jumpin Johnny Green the most athletic player of his day? I read be could touch the top of the glass.

G.O.A.T

08-01-2014, 10:31 AM

http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributematerial/PlayerMaterial/WillieWise/WisePauseClose2.jpg
#150 Willie M. Wise

Tier Classification: Winning Pieces: Momentary Elite
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 9 (5)
Primary Role(s): #2 on Championship Teams and contenders
Prime Averages: 20-10-3 on 48/73

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]These next two players I have to be careful with as I

G.O.A.T

08-01-2014, 10:49 AM

Was Jumpin Johnny Green the most athletic player of his day? I read be could touch the top of the glass.

I think guys like Wilt and Russell, Baylor, Gus Johnson etc. were all on the same level. They called him Long John, Kid Pogo, Rubber Legs, so obviously he could leap.

How good of a leaper was he:

"I'd put him up there with Jackie Jackson, the old Globetrotter, and maybe three other guys as a rebounder. He jumped out of sight, I know Julius Erving, and Julius wasn't in his league. I remember an alumni game when Robin Roberts, the great baseball player went up for a rebound and got eye level with John's belt, that's when Robin decided to stop playing basketball."

-Julius McCoy

Also from the book Magic Moments, a history of MSU hoops...

"Green routinley touched the top of the backboard at 12'6" and once dunked a ball ten times in 15 seconds."

L.Kizzle

08-01-2014, 12:09 PM

How different would history be had Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown entered the NBA in the early 60s?

Gotterdammerung

08-01-2014, 12:42 PM

How different would history be had Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown entered the NBA in the early 60s?
Excellent question, rife with possibilities and hypotheticals only a Borgesian literary genius could reasonably speculate without stacking the deck.

First, which team would they be drafted in, and how would their presence affect their hypothetical nba teams in the next 5-10 seasons?

Second, how would their presence affect other teams as a chain reaction, how they draft and shape their teams in adjustment?

:confusedshrug:

G.O.A.T

08-01-2014, 03:58 PM

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D6QoL6qfi2U/Tbwfy9W0dgI/AAAAAAAABBs/1FGBvXUX57Q/s640/zach-randolph-526-2-042911.jpg
#148 Zachary Randolph

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (10)
Primary Role(s): 1A/1B on playoff teams
Prime Averages: 19-10-2-1 on 47/76

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]F or a long time Z-Bo carried a bad rap. A lot of people believed he was the best player in the league that you couldn

G.O.A.T

08-01-2014, 09:34 PM

http://www.nasljerseys.com/ABA/Images/Hawks/Hawks%2066-67%20HOme%20Richie%20Guerin,%20Sixers%20Wali%20JOn es.jpg
#146 Richard V. Guerin

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (6)
Primary Role(s): Best player on bad teams
Prime Averages: 22-7-6 on 42/79

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Six time all-star, three times all-NBA, perennially among the top ten in assists and three times a top 10 scorer, including averaging just under 30 ppg in 1961-62, it took a long time but Richie Guerin was finally inducted in the Hall of Fame in 2013. A strong physical guard, ahead of his time with great hesitation and change of direction moves of the dribble, Guerin languished on the lowly Knicks for seven seasons, making the playoffs only once. Finally in 1963 he was sent to the Hawks, a contender for most of the last decade, they needed a second guard to play alongside Lenny Wilkins, replacing John Barnhill a rookie the year before who had not met expectations. In a reduced role from that of a star in his twenties, Guerin became a valuable piece for the Hawks in his thirties and finally got a regular crack at the playoffs. So impressed with Guerin

L.Kizzle

08-01-2014, 09:58 PM

Glen Rice was one of my favorite players early in my basketball watching days. I even got NBA in The Zone because he was on the cover. I think my team would look like:

Starters
PG Anfernee Hardaway
SG Clyde Drexler
SF Grant Hill
PF Shawn Kemp
C Hakeem Olajuwon

Reserves
G Kevin Johnson
G Reggie Miller
G Latrell Sprewell
F Glen Rice
F Charles Barkley
F Larry Johnson
C Alonzo Mourning

L.Kizzle

08-02-2014, 02:05 AM

Guerin, Yardley or Hagan. Who was better?

G.O.A.T

08-02-2014, 11:44 AM

Guerin, Yardley or Hagan. Who was better?

I'll take Hagan because he was so good in the playoffs so often. I'll go into more depth when he comes up on the list, but basically he's a Mark Aguirre crossed with a prime James Worthy. He could do it all offensively.

G.O.A.T

08-04-2014, 11:37 PM

http://basketballhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Deron-Williams-Dribbling.jpg
#144 Deron Williams

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 9 (7)
Primary Role(s): #1/#2 on solid playoff teams
Prime Averages: 19-3-10-1 on 46/83

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Timing is everything in life. For Deron Williams he had the misfortune timing of coming out of the University of Illinois as a top prospect at the same time as Chris Paul, the highly celebrated guard from Wake Forest. Though Williams had more team success, reaching the National Championship game as a junior, the dynamic Paul was considered by most the top guard prospect. Most observers believed that Atlanta, with the second pick would take Paul, perhaps this is why Utah, with the third pick seemed locked in on taking Williams, which they did even after Atlanta surprised many by selecting Marvin Williams second. Paul slide to four and many questioned or laughed at both Atlanta and Utah, who needed point guards for passing on the sure thing. From that moment on Paul and Williams were constantly being compared and Deron would always be judged by two standards. How well he played and how well he played compared to Paul. When Williams averaged a respectable 10-5 as a rookie, the critics continued to shake their heads when Paul won rookie of the year averaging 16-9. The next season the Jazz won 51 games, ten more than the previous year and 25 more than they year before D-Will arrived. They advanced to the Western Conference Finals with Williams averaging 19-9 for the playoffs (16-9 in the regular season). Paul and the Hornets missed the playoffs again and the debate was heating up.

Williams had another excellent season in 2007-08 setting career highs for points (18.8), assists (10.5), FG% (.507) and FT% (.803). Even with Williams doing everything within reason, Paul still gained the upper-hand having his best season and being considered by many the leagues MVP. The next two seasons Williams averaged 19-11 again and the debate raged on. Though most seemed to think Paul is the better player, it was becoming very clear that Williams was in his right, a star. In 2010 he made his second all-NBA team and the Jazz went to the playoffs for a fourth straight year. For a while it almost didn

Gotterdammerung

08-04-2014, 11:58 PM

Excellent question, rife with possibilities and hypotheticals only a Borgesian literary genius could reasonably speculate without stacking the deck.

First, which team would they be drafted in, and how would their presence affect their hypothetical nba teams in the next 5-10 seasons?

Second, how would their presence affect other teams as a chain reaction, how they draft and shape their teams in adjustment?

:confusedshrug:

Nobody's biting?

:whatever:

ETA: this thread is thoroughly enjoyable, largely because it is quite informative about players prior to my time (1991) and each bio is detailed enough to get a feel for the player. Again, wonderful job, GOAT. :cheers:

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.

L.Kizzle

08-05-2014, 01:45 AM

Nobody's biting?

:whatever:

ETA: this thread is thoroughly enjoyable, largely because it is quite informative about players prior to my time (1991) and each bio is detailed enough to get a feel for the player. Again, wonderful job, GOAT. :cheers:

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.
Both would have been drafted in 1964. Both being from Brooklyn would have been territorial picks. I'm not sure if a team could take more than one pick a season. Willis Reed was also drafted that season.

Brown or Hawkins. Not sure who was better in their high school days.

But it wouldn't matter as the Knicks had the first pick that season too. They didnt take R43d 1st but 8th or 1st 2nd round pick. Jim Barnes was the first pick for NYC.

C Willis Reed
PF Connie Hawkins
SF Johnny Green
SG Roger Brown
PG Whoever (Tom Gola)

With this they don't get Walt Frazier a few years later.

L.A. Jazz

08-05-2014, 03:44 AM

I followed the Paul vs Williams debate from the start. I always felt i would pick Williams because he was bigger and stronger. And he played very well in head to head against Paul. But his play the last few years was pretty bad. with all the young PGs the NBA now he is an afterthought and i think he will not bounce back.

played0ut

08-05-2014, 03:50 AM

That's a lot of work, man.

Will you edit it as the seasons come and go, and people win/lose/break some record?

G.O.A.T

08-05-2014, 06:54 PM

That's a lot of work, man.

Will you edit it as the seasons come and go, and people win/lose/break some record?

No, but if I am still alive in three years and so is ISH I'll do a new list. My rankings change every week. As much as I know now, there is still way more I have to learn.

Would u ever try and post a "scouting report" for certain players you've compiled enough data on?

I think that's the biggest thing missing anywhere: books, zines, internet, etc.

That would be a dream project for me. I've always enjoyed scouting/tendency evaluation. However I don't believe

The problem is I don't have an adequate understanding of most players pre-1984 because of the lack of film available. I try to compile as much of a scouting report as I can into the bios of the older players, but it's most anecdotal praise, not critical evaluation. I have, as have many others here, been able to pick up on some tendencies and strengths/weaknesses of many of the highest regarded older players, but at best were looking at 3% of their body of work. I just watched a video of every shot block Anthony Davis had this year. I've now seen him block more individual shots than Russell and Chamberlain combined. To say putting together a legitimate scouting report would be a tall task is an understatement.

I followed the Paul vs Williams debate from the start. I always felt i would pick Williams because he was bigger and stronger. And he played very well in head to head against Paul. But his play the last few years was pretty bad. with all the young PGs the NBA now he is an afterthought and i think he will not bounce back.

Do you have any knowledge of the Sloan/Williams feud and how does that aspect of his career change your view, if at all?

L.A. Jazz

08-06-2014, 06:57 AM

Do you have any knowledge of the Sloan/Williams feud and how does that aspect of his career change your view, if at all?
No, i dont. i only read this article last year:

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/utah-owner-goes-record-night-deron-williams-drove-144019005.html

What do you imply?
That Sloans desicion was wrong because Deron from this point on felt he could win any battle against any coach?

Iceman#44

08-06-2014, 07:32 AM

Great thread

raiderfan19

08-06-2014, 12:56 PM

Btw I thought about the Marion thing and one of the more interesting comparisons IMO is Reggie miller. I'm assuming miller will be on here at some point(though it wouldnt hurt my feelings if he wasn't) but offensively their games are more similar than you'd think. Both were 20 ppg scorers who couldn't create their own look but could get open if someone else could get them the ball. Obviously they got to those 20 ppg differently and millers shooting had a gravitational effect that Marion never had. But Marion's dive cuts had their own gravity and he was better at everything but shooting.

L.Kizzle

08-06-2014, 09:05 PM

raiderfan19

08-07-2014, 12:58 AM

You can't build a team around Marion. You Could With Miller.

on Bob Love: There was a documentary on hin similar to the Mike Ray Richardson one. Its sad that after his player career he became a dishwasher for a restaurant.
You can't really build a team around either but you could come as close with Marion as you could Reggie. Then again Reggie is one of the 3 or 4 most overrated players of all time

L.Kizzle

08-07-2014, 01:23 AM

You can't' really build a team around either but you could come as close with Marion as you could Reggie. Then again Reggie is one of the 3 or 4 most overrated players of all time
A guy who took his team to the Finals and deep in the playoffs countless times in the 90s you can't build around?

Marion would be Derrick McKey on Reggie teams.

A team built for Shawn Marion would look like.

PG Mark Jackson
SG John Starks
SF Shawn Marion
PF Otis Thorpe
C Tyson Chandler

even on a team like like this Otis Thorpe might be the go to guy. You can't build around a guy who doesn't get plays drawn for him.

raiderfan19

08-07-2014, 10:19 AM

They both scored off of assisted plays all the time and elite all time off the ball movement. 80% of Reggie's career playoff buckets were off of assists. The 7 seconds or less suns were built around Marion as much as the pacers were built around miller. Nash was obviously the engine but that team doesn't work without Marion running the break on the wing as well as anyone in the league, rebounding like an elite big, being able to hit 3s and being able to defend everyone but centers. The saddest thing about that team is that everyone forgets how vital Marion was, even though it was obvious with how much worse the suns got after the shaq trade.

L.Kizzle

08-07-2014, 11:04 AM

But Miller was the Pacers best player by a long shot. Marion 3rd best behind Nash and Amare. All I'm saying is if Shawn Marion is the teams best player they're not going far at all. As for Miller 2 games away from an ring.

raiderfan19

08-07-2014, 06:22 PM

But Miller was the Pacers best player by a long shot. Marion 3rd best behind Nash and Amare. .
No he wasnt and amare was only better than Marion in 05.

hangintheair

08-07-2014, 06:27 PM

Please continue GOAT even though we are not commenting but we are still reading it.. Kudos to you my friend for a job well done.

L.Kizzle

08-07-2014, 06:34 PM

No he wasnt andd amare was only better than Marion in 05.
Who was the Pacers best player Sam Perkins?

I'm a huge Marion fan but he cant be the best player on your team.

G.O.A.T

08-07-2014, 08:00 PM

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jdJpIOBCQWM/T8lf8MCxH_I/AAAAAAAABFM/XdDQF9_TBIM/s1600/jack-twyman.jpg
#142 John Kennedy Twyman

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (7)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on playoff teams, #1 on Bad Teams
Prime Averages: 23-8-3 on 45/78

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I would guess that most of you know the story of Jack Twyman and Maurice Stokes. If you don

L.Kizzle

08-07-2014, 09:25 PM

I can't belive they haven't done a story on Stokes/Twyman as the NBAs version Brian's song.

magnax1

08-07-2014, 10:28 PM

The Hudson one was very interesting. Never knew much of anything about him.

G.O.A.T

08-08-2014, 06:06 PM

http://www.hoopmixtape.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/tom-chambers-site.jpg
#140 Thomas Doane Chambers

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 17 (10)
Primary Role(s): #1/#2/#3 on borderline contenders
Prime Averages: 21-7-2-1 on 48/30/81

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-A player develops a reputation for a lot of reasons, and seldom is it not earned. In the case of Tom Chambers this is true as usual, but though it is not common for a reputation to change, people often do, and Chambers, he did. In addition to his reputation earned for his skills. A high flying ambidextrous slammer who could score from anywhere on the court utilizing whatever advantage he had in size, speed or skill on you. He also earned another reputation.

“Tom’s the most selfish guy I’ve ever played with, I hated playing with Tom.” -Gerald Henderson

“I would tell people, he’s a fine scorer, but I don’t want him on my team, it’s all about Tom.” - Don Chaney

“When I watched him play while I was in college I thought he was the most selfish player in the World.” - Kevin Johnson

And Tom didn't do much to help his own cause as he was also prone to uses his words poorly. At the very least he was prone to hyperbole and not as much so in terms of humility.

“There is no way their front-line (The Celtics) can match-up with ours (The Sonics) - Chambers, 1985

“I’m 6’10”. I can run, jump, shoot the three and dunk. There aren’t many of us around.” - Describing himself

“Today I’m the best player in the World” - 1987, after winning the all-star game MVP

But over time, things change, especially people, maturity will do that.

“I’m sure earlier in his career he was selfish, but I never looked at him as selfish, I looked at him as playing on bad teams. Bad teams are selfish. Good teams are unselfish. He’s a hell of a guy now...he wants to win...without Tom we’d be a team struggling below .500….He is the best player I’ve ever coached.” - Cotton Fitzsimmons in 1989 & 1990

“Those things about Tom are in the past, he’s a winner now and he’s a leader on this team.” - Kevin Johnson

“When you first come in the league it’s about survival and making a name for yourself. But eventually, you learn that winning is all that matters.” - Chambers in 1991

Tom’s career started in San Diego, drafted out of Utah, his home state where his family were local legends as athletes, Chambers who needed discipline, was set free and played well, but without direction on two terrible Clipper teams. He was traded the next off-season to Seattle where he played on more bad teams and developed the aforementioned selfish rap. In 1986-87 the Sonics had three players average 23 ppg for the first time in NBA history. Dale Ellis, Xavier McDaniel and Chambers. Chambers won the All-Star game MVP that season, scoring 34 points in front of the home crowd but the Sonics were inconsistent and at best considered a mediocre team, finishing 39-43. As luck would have it they seemed to get it together just in time for the playoffs. They upset Dallas and Houston, but met their match against the Lakers who swept them from the Western Conference Finals. Chambers led the team with 31 points in the closeout win over the Mavericks and 37 points in the final game against the Rockets. The next season they won 44 games, returned to the playoffs, but lost to the Nuggets in five games. Chambers again led the team, even in defeat, averaging 26 points per game for the series.

In 1988 the NBA’s collective bargaining agreement’s new “unrestricted Free Agency” rules went into effect. The first player to sign a contract under this construct was Chambers when he signed a 5-year $9 million deal with Phoenix, rebuilding after being rocked by scandal in 1987. Chambers was the final piece and the Suns rose quickly in 1988-89, winning 55 games and advancing to the Western Conference Finals with Chambers averaging 26-8-3 for the season and 26-11-4 in the playoffs. They would lose to the Lakers. In 1990 Chambers averaged 27.2 points, fourth in the league on better than 50% shooting. The Suns won 54 games, beat the Lakers and returned to the Western Conference Finals. After that the Suns and Chambers star began to fall slightly. Age was catching up with him and quick. He averaged 20-6-3 and 16-5-2 in the next two seasons. In 1992 the Suns traded for Charles Barkley and Chambers moved to the bench. The team reached the finals that season, the only time Chambers played on that stage, but they lost to the Bulls in 6 games. After that Chambers spent two seasons at home in Utah before drifting around the league still trying to hang on for three more seasons between 1995 and 1998. Chambers career finished with four all-star selections, two all-NBA selections and two MVP top tens.

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http://sport-buzz.fr/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/walter-davis.jpg
#139 Walter Davis

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (9)
Primary Role(s): #1/#2/#3 on borderline contenders
Prime Averages: 21-3-4-1 on 52/84

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-The Greyhound, Sweet D, The Man With The Velvet Touch. Walter Davis went by many names others gave him, but from the moment he entered the NBA, he made a name for himself. The 1978 Rookie of the Year out of North Carolina Davis joined a Suns team that had made a surprise run to the Finals in 1976, but found out it was still a few pieces away in 1977. Davis averaged 24 points and 6 rebounds as a rookie, the highest averages he’d ever post in those categories. He finished fifth in the MVP voting and the Suns won 49 games, 15 more than the previous season. The next season they won 50 games and pushed the Sonics to seven games in the Western Finals. Davis averaged 22-5-5-2 for the postseason becoming a 2nd team. He made the all-star team in his first four seasons. The Suns did their part by winning 55 and 57 games in ‘80 and ‘81, but bowed out in the conference semifinals both times.

After an injury in '82, Davis bounced back in 1983, leading the 53-win Suns in scoring, but despite 26 ppg from Walt in the playoffs they were upset in round one vs. Denver. The Suns got off to a terrible start in 83-84, 6-13, but battled back to finish .500 and make the playoffs. The Suns had been upset numerous times in recent years, but this time they played spoiler knocking off 48 win Portland and 45-win Utah en route to the Western Conference Finals for the second time in Davis’ career. As usual, Davis led the way in the playoffs averaging 25 points and 6 and a half assists. During the first six years of his career Davis played with great guards like Paul Westphal and Dennis Johnson as well as perimeter oriented center Alvan Adams. Now he was teamed with a premier frontcourt; Larry Nance, James Edwards and Maurice Lucas. This figured to be a launching pad for the Suns new core, but instead it was their high point, from here on out, instead of winning games, they started pointing fingers and getting high. In 1985, the day after matching his career with 43 points on 17-27 shooting, Davis called the Suns owner and told him he was checking himself into rehab for cocaine and alcohol addiction. It didn’t stop there, in 1987 the Suns organization was involved in what SI called the largest drug bust in pro sports history. Five players ( James Edwards, Jay Humphries, Grant Gondrezick and two former Suns Gar Heard and Mike Bratz ) were indicted for trafficking drugs. Davis admitted to a relapse and excepted a suspension from the NBA.

Davis’ career was never the same, already in his thirties, fighting knee and elbow injuries and addiction problems, despite his skill he was no longer a star. His legacy was already established though. He was a pure scorer, with great speed and quickness, he could handle the ball against pressure or in the open court and his jump shot was a thing of beauty. His coach John MacLeod was an admirer; “He’s Not your average shooter. He’s an artist. His jumper is picture perfect. If you wanted to teach someone how to shoot the ball, you would say to them, ‘Do it the way Walter does.’ He has great rotation on the ball and a soft, gentle touch.” Like most great scorers, he picked up his game when his team needed most. Right away, he showed that he was blessed with the “clutch gene,” displaying an uncanny ability to take over games in crunch time and becoming one of the most feared late-game players in the league. He had a great spin move which he could use to create space for his deadly mid-range J or get to the rim and finish in a number of creative ways. In 1983 he scored 36 points on 15-16 shooting from the floor and made all six free throws. His only miss was a meaningless shot with under one minute and the game wrapped up. He once scored all of his teams points in a quarter, and even outscored an entire team, albeit in high school. A truly great and under-appreciated player and the Suns all-time leading scorer; Walter Davis, the Greyhound as Brent Musburger called him, but he prefers Sweet D., the name his teammates gave him.

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G.O.A.T

08-08-2014, 06:16 PM

Please continue GOAT even though we are not commenting but we are still reading it.. Kudos to you my friend for a job well done.

Thanks for following, always love feedback, especially suggestions on how this can be better.

The Hudson one was very interesting. Never knew much of anything about him.

You'll enjoy this I think - Suns vs. Hawks highlights X-MAS 1970 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut3R7SViJlY)

@ Raiderfan and LKizzle RE: Miller vs. Marion

Obviously I side with Miller way over Marion all-time, but I see Raiderfans point more and more. Marion was probably a better fit on at least as many teams as Miller, Marion has a better all-around game, Marion can do a lot more things Miller can do than Miller can do that Marion can't.

Still Reggie can be your alpha. Marion can't. Not sure why Reggie had that ability, and why the Pacers could be a contender built around the 10-20th best player in the league, but they did it. Reggie made and took big shots more than anyone else who wasn't an MVP candidate in his era, that's a real short version of why I prefer him over Marion.

Thanks to both of you for your regular contributions to the thread.

L.Kizzle

08-08-2014, 06:45 PM

Chet probably around the 110-120 mark. Dandridge and Davis around 120-135 range. My guess.
I was 4 off with Walt Davis. I predicted 135 and he's 139.

G.O.A.T

08-08-2014, 07:12 PM

I was 4 off with Walt Davis. I predicted 135 and he's 139.

Wait 'till you see where the other two end up...

A bit off topic, and I don't want to derail the thread, but if anyone has thoughts on the best Suns ever. not just a list, but a few thoughts, something you've learned, observations or memories. I've always liked the franchise and when they acquired Barkley, a teenage me was pretty pumped. But without much more than a glance my greatest Suns ever list would be as follows:

Barkley
Nash
KJ
Hawkins
Davis
Adams
Chambers
Marion
Nance
Amar'e

L.Kizzle

08-08-2014, 07:47 PM

Wait 'till you see where the other two end up...

A bit off topic, and I don't want to derail the thread, but if anyone has thoughts on the best Suns ever. not just a list, but a few thoughts, something you've learned, observations or memories. I've always liked the franchise and when they acquired Barkley, a teenage me was pretty pumped. But without much more than a glance my greatest Suns ever list would be as follows:

Barkley
Nash
KJ
Hawkins
Davis
Adams
Chambers
Marion
Nance
Amar'e
Charlie Scott
Paul Westphal
Marbury
Cebalos

Iceman#44

08-08-2014, 08:51 PM

amazing Job GOAT!

G.O.A.T

08-09-2014, 12:16 PM

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Westbrook.jpg
#138 Russell Westbrook

Tier Classification: Stars: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 6 (4)
Primary Role(s): #2 on contender
Prime Averages: 21-5-7-2 on 44/31/82

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]To say his stock is rising is an understatement. Last season, the first I added Westbrook to these rankings he was ranked 215. He

Purch

08-09-2014, 12:21 PM

Sorry that I haven't been commenting, but I've definitely been reading every one so far, so keep up the good work

G.O.A.T

08-09-2014, 05:30 PM

http://jukeleft.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2013/05/chi_nba_top07_800-600x324.jpg
#137 Horace Junior Grant

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 17 (10)
Primary Role(s): #3 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 13-9-3-1-1 on 52/69

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]The stories Horace Grant could tell.

L.Kizzle

08-09-2014, 11:45 PM

I liked Ho Grant but what was the major difference between Charles Oakley Otis Thorpe AC Green and Kevin Willis? Also

fpliii

08-09-2014, 11:47 PM

BTW GOAT, great, great thread. Know that even if some of us aren't commenting per se, we're still reading every word, and waiting eagerly for the next update.

Tremendous research, glad to have you back on the board, and thanks a ton for sharing your knowledge with us.

jcsrplumply

08-09-2014, 11:52 PM

GOAT thread is GOAT.

MP.Trey

08-09-2014, 11:56 PM

Agree with others. This thread is great and is really helping me educate myself a little more on some of the lesser known basketball pioneers and players before my time. Kudos GOAT. You know the comments will start pouring in like crazy once we get into the top 50-75 area and on when we get to the stars we all know and have many opinions on.

raiderfan19

08-10-2014, 01:32 AM

Who was the Pacers best player Sam Perkins?

I'm a huge Marion fan but he cant be the best player on your team.
I'd say smite but there are a variety of people you could say. They were similar to the 2000s pistons in that they had a lot of good players but no great ones. Chauncey billups shouldn't have been good enough to be the best player on a champion either but he was. Sometimes you don't really have a best player.

I understand(and agree with) the point you are making. Marion couldn't be a go to guy. But considering you weren't winning a title with anyone outside of the top 50 as your best player(if that many) tha fact is much less important in ranking people outside that number.

raiderfan19

08-10-2014, 01:37 AM

Btw on the suns list wouldn't Kidd have to be on it somewhere? I know he wasn't there all that long but that version of Kidd was absolutely amazing

BoutPractice

08-10-2014, 05:19 AM

Great thread.

I've always been impressed by Tom Chambers' game. He had a unique combination of skills, and was just fun to watch.

G.O.A.T

08-10-2014, 02:51 PM

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1206/pat.riley.rare.photos/images/riley-nixon.jpg
#135 Norman Ellard Nixon

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (7)
Primary Role(s): #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 17-3-9-2 on 49/78

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]To be a little man in basketball, you

G.O.A.T

08-10-2014, 02:52 PM

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/23.%20Maurice%20Cheeks.jpg
#134 Maurice Edward Cheeks

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 15 (10)
Primary Role(s): #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 13-3-8-2 on 53/79

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Another undersized guard from a small college who played a vital supporting role for an NBA Champion in the early eighties, Maurice Cheeks was often compared to Norm Nixon during their playing days. Drafted in 1978 out of the Missouri Valley Conference, Cheeks first got noticed when scouts went to see Indiana State

RRR3

08-10-2014, 06:59 PM

How the hell is Chambers above Lou Hudson and Jack Twyman? :biggums:

L.Kizzle

08-11-2014, 12:55 AM

Nixon and Cheeks 2 underrated guarda (along with Mike Ray and Fat Lever and Blackman ans Gus Williams and Alvin Robertson and Jim Paxson. )

Pearleojam

08-11-2014, 12:29 PM

Boston C's

08-11-2014, 09:08 PM

Just like everyone else is saying...keep up the great work I look forward to your updates GOAT

G.O.A.T

08-14-2014, 11:07 PM

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5XxjSQgxTPk/TUnT4P64aMI/AAAAAAAAAdI/DMtZqMa549M/s1600/Chet+Walker.jpg
#133 Chester Walker

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 13 (11)
Primary Role(s): #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 19-7-2 on 47/80

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]If only we had 82.games.com when Chet Walker played. The Clutch stats they track today are so important because of players like

L.Kizzle

08-14-2014, 11:46 PM

I think Chet along with Gus Johnson were the two most underrated forwards of the 60s and early 70s.

trabash

08-16-2014, 11:33 AM

Great thread, but if you keep up with this pace it will take years to complete :D

G.O.A.T

08-17-2014, 01:08 PM

http://ballnroll.com/Uploads/Blogs/ExclusiveAccess/Unmanagables/C%20-%20Rasheed%20Wallace.jpg
#132 Rasheed Abdul Wallace

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 16 (13)
Primary Role(s): #1/#2/#3 on Contenders
Prime Averages: 15-7-2-1-1 on 47/34/72

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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]

L.Kizzle

08-17-2014, 02:28 PM

Is Rasheed a Hall of Famer?

G.O.A.T

08-19-2014, 09:35 PM

http://www.jonathanrosenbaum.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/whitemencantjump-woodywesley1.jpg

This section, the next four players anyway, is dedicated to guys who perpetuate one of the most frustrating, but as always, true stereotypes in basketball. The nonathletic white big man. Here however we will pay homage to guys who had great careers despite not being cast from the typical mold.

G.O.A.T

08-19-2014, 10:10 PM

http://sp5.fotolog.com/photo/37/53/114/old_thunder/1245759551218_f.jpg
#131 Robert Clyde Jones

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 12 (12)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3/#4 on Playoff teams and Contenders
Prime Averages: 12-6-3-2-2 on 54/80

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]Some players need to be the man. Others don

G.O.A.T

08-19-2014, 10:12 PM

http://thatnbalotterypick.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/sikma_452713.jpg
#129 Jack Wayne Sikma

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 14 (11)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3 on Contenders
Prime Averages: 17-11-4-1 on 47/85

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-A gangly, gawking 6’11” Dutch raised toehead is not the traditional image associated with NBA greatness in the pivot, but Jack Sikma had no problem defying those odds nor the unprecipitated criticism of his draft selection from numerous sources including his future coach Don Nelson who said he would have selected Sikma 23rd overall only if his team had already used all 22 first round choices. In eight seasons in Seattle Sikma became the face of Sonics basketball and helped them earn the “Super” that preceded their nickname winning the 1979 NBA Championship. After a 5-17 start during his rookie year, Sikma and the Sonics took off, reaching the Finals in 1978 before becoming Champions in 1979 as mentioned, but following the next postseasons defeat at the hands of the Lakers (who Seattle has cast off in ‘78 and ‘79) internal conflict and poor front office management grounded the once high lying Northwesterners. Sikma, a key figure during the title run, having averaged 15 and 12 from the center position, had evolved during the first half of the 1980’s into one of the games best centers averaging 18-11-4 while making seven consecutive all-star games. As one by one the former pieces of Sonics greatness began to depart; Dennis Johnson, John Johnson, Fred Brown, Gus Williams, soon it was just Sikma and head coach/GM Lenny Wilkens who remained. Though Wilkens had been key to the team's turnaround in 1977-78, now. in 1985 Sikma and other teammates wanted him replaced as coach saying he was, if anything “Too nice a guy” to coach in the league. The next off-season Sikma demanded a trade, though he loved Seattle, he wanted to play for a contender again and he knew Seattle could not trade a local hero like him without his precipitating it. As team President Bob Whitsitt said then; “Jack is huge in our community, he’s bigger than the Space Needle” add to that former GM Zolie Volchok once claimed, “I wouldn’t trade Jack Sikma for the resurrection of Marilyn Monroe in my bedroom.” and you can imagine how shocking his 1986 trade to the Bucks was.

Milwaukee had a history of trading for aging center having acquired Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens earlier in the decade. They were perpetually bridesmaids in the Eastern Conference Finals to Boston or Philadelphia. They hoped Sikma could put them over the top and despite more regular season success, Milwaukee never took the next step in the playoffs. Sikma averaged 14 points and 8 rebounds in five seasons with the Bucks before retiring. His seven all-star selections, two MVP top-ten finishes and his 15/10 average in almost 100 playoff games a starter speak to his high level of play, Nelson eventually changed his tune and said of Sikma; “While I don’t think he’s the type of player who can carry a team, his value lies in his ability to do really well, everything a center has to do. There isn’t a part of the game he isn’t good at.” To basketball coaches he is perhaps most famous for the move he created; a reverse 180 pivot post move, the basic stepback jumper today, simply known as the SIkma move then, utilizing his high release and exceptional footwork and range of his jump shot. In addition he consistently rebounded and defended his position at an above-average to exceptional level. In the ‘79 Finals, at just 23 years of age and during the pivotal third game he had 21 points on 10-14 shooting and 17 rebounds while holding superstar Elvin Hayes to 5-20 from the field; he would average 16 points 15 rebounds and over 3 blocks for the series. In 1987, nearly 32 now with the Bucks he came up with 18 points and 21 rebounds in do or die game five win in the first round versus the 76ers with Doctor J and Sir Charles. Keeping with the theme of Ironmen, Sikma played in 1,209 of 1,248 games during his career. What’s with these guys.

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G.O.A.T

08-19-2014, 10:13 PM

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/bill-laimbeer/bill-laimbeer-RickStewart.jpg
#128 William J. Laimbeer Jr.

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 14 (9)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 15-11-2-1 on 50/32/84

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]He used to joke that he was the only player in the NBA who made less money than his Dad, and for much of his career that was true. Even though NBA contracts began to take off right as Bill Laimbeer turned pro, a six figure income was the norm for Laimbeer, raised in a privileged suburb of Chicago, going to the NBA may have meant a pay cut for Bill. But Laimbeer didn

L.Kizzle

08-19-2014, 10:15 PM

MP.Trey

08-19-2014, 10:20 PM

I was almost correct. Only I had Paul Westphal instead of Dan Issel.
Interesting. I saw that description and immediately thought Issel. Wasn't sure who else though. Interesting group of players.

L.Kizzle

08-19-2014, 10:23 PM

Interesting. I saw that description and immediately thought Issel. Wasn't sure who else though. Interesting group of players.
Issel was pretty athletic for a big. He was supposed to be in the ABA dunk Contest.

L.A. Jazz

08-20-2014, 02:11 AM

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]...Unquestionably he is beloved by fans in Detroit and bemoaned by those almost everywhere else. But let

G.O.A.T

08-20-2014, 06:26 PM

You have for sure seen him play a lot and done a lot of research. But i dont respect players that try to hurt other players. The games i saw it looked like that and Larry Bird even said it in the interview with Bill Simmons.

I know what you mean. I heard the Simmons/Bird BS Report and I was a little surprised that Larry had not lighten up a little with time, but considering how violent their rivalry was, I'm not shocked.

I am certain many players still dislike and never really respected Laimbeer. But I wanted to point out (and feel I did with the quotes I used) that a number of players with cause to "hate" Laimbeer actually respected him.

As a Pistons fan, I admit my bias, but I am not ignorant of how others (mostly rightfully) may view Laimbeer. I just think most guys who hate him for what he did on the court would be singing a different tune if he wore the same jersey as them.

RRR3

08-20-2014, 06:37 PM

Goat why is chambers so high?
Over guys lik Lou Hudson etc

WillC

08-20-2014, 06:52 PM

SCdac

08-20-2014, 06:59 PM

While I don't agree with all the rankings, and I'm interested where you have Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (last time you did this I think Parker was overrated and Manu wasn't even top-100), I can appreciate all the time and effort put into this list :cheers:

G.O.A.T

08-20-2014, 07:06 PM

G.O.A.T, this is a tremendous thread. I used to enjoy reading your GOAT rankings back in the day (before I bothered registering), so it's great to see the biographies still going strong.

Sorry to nitpick, but I found it strange that you started a section about "nonathletic white big men" by talking about Bobby Jones. He was a great leaper! Also quite quick for his size.

Your rankings are excellent. I find myself agreeing with most of them and, where I do spot a discrepancy, I can see the logic (even if I don't necessarily agree with it). In other words, nobody appears massively overrated or underrated, but, instead, within the right tiers.

Keep up the great work.

I screwed up a little. Jones was a good athlete. If you go back to my original GOAT list I mention this. But I had just got done doing these four and SPOILER ALERT: Vern Mikkelsen (who is next in my rankings) and I had quotes from all five guys talking about how they couldn't jump worth a darn.

Laimbeer said that since Bill Paultz left the league he believed he now was the worst leaper in the NBA.

Sikma said of his plyometric workouts, "Great now I can jump over two phone books instead of one."

Issel said that something about "When I was young I could outjump most of my peers, then I turned 12."

and Jones had a few...

"I couldn't do the things in the air those guys could do...I could jump when I was younger, but only with a running start, guys like Larry (Kenon) and George (McGinnis) wold ge to where I got and kept going until I cam down." - Jones in 1989

"I needed to use everything I had to keep up with the other guys at my position. They were stronger, faster and jumped better most of the time, playing less minutes meant I could go full speed whenever I was on the court."

I should have added Mikkelsen to the "White Men Can't Jump" group, not Jones, but I was sleepy and thought I had already posted the Jones article.

Bobby does not belong with those guys, but the only reason he was considered a good athlete was because he was "good for a whiteguy" which I hate.

While I don't agree with all the rankings, and I'm interested where you have Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker (last time you did this I think Parker was overrated and Manu wasn't even top-100), I can appreciate all the time and effort put into this list :cheers:

Please remember that Parker was not ranked by number, but with a group of players of like achievements. Though he was #66 on the list, I had said he may not even have been in my top 90 by pure rankings.

I have them both in this list still to come, where approximately would you rank each as a Spurs fan? And which players would you have them ranked around historically?

L.Kizzle

08-20-2014, 07:37 PM

Wherever Kevin Johnson Timmy Hardaway and Mark Price are Tony Parker should be behind them. Probably alongside Chauncey Billups. Manu behind Ray Allen T Mac Richmond and VC.

SCdac

08-20-2014, 07:48 PM

I screwed up a little. Jones was a good athlete. If you go back to my original GOAT list I mention this. But I had just got done doing these four and SPOILER ALERT: Vern Mikkelsen (who is next in my rankings) and I had quotes from all five guys talking about how they couldn't jump worth a darn.

Laimbeer said that since Bill Paultz left the league he believed he now was the worst leaper in the NBA.

Sikma said of his plyometric workouts, "Great now I can jump over two phone books instead of one."

Issel said that something about "When I was young I could outjump most of my peers, then I turned 12."

and Jones had a few...

"I couldn't do the things in the air those guys could do...I could jump when I was younger, but only with a running start, guys like Larry (Kenon) and George (McGinnis) wold ge to where I got and kept going until I cam down." - Jones in 1989

"I needed to use everything I had to keep up with the other guys at my position. They were stronger, faster and jumped better most of the time, playing less minutes meant I could go full speed whenever I was on the court."

I should have added Mikkelsen to the "White Men Can't Jump" group, not Jones, but I was sleepy and thought I had already posted the Jones article.

Bobby does not belong with those guys, but the only reason he was considered a good athlete was because he was "good for a whiteguy" which I hate.

Please remember that Parker was not ranked by number, but with a group of players of like achievements. Though he was #66 on the list, I had said he may not even have been in my top 90 by pure rankings.

I have them both in this list still to come, where approximately would you rank each as a Spurs fan? And which players would you have them ranked around historically?

Ginobili I think is top 80, Parker I can understand being top 70 by the time his career is over (keeping achievements in mind, not just level of talent and individual ability) though I have him around Ginobili personally. Parker to me is indeed like another Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson. Whereas Manu is cut from a different cloth. I'd definitely rank Ginobili over Vince Carter, for instance, despite being less popular to the casual fans of America. It's worth noting Ginobili came into the NBA at 25, a very late age, yet was the MVP for his winning Argentinian team and even lead the Spurs in many respects (played point guard in crunch time alot).

ninephive

08-20-2014, 11:16 PM

Ginobili I think is top 80, Parker I can understand being top 70 by the time his career is over (keeping achievements in mind, not just level of talent and individual ability) though I have him around Ginobili personally. Parker to me is indeed like another Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson. Whereas Manu is cut from a different cloth. I'd definitely rank Ginobili over Vince Carter, for instance, despite being less popular to the casual fans of America. It's worth noting Ginobili came into the NBA at 25, a very late age, yet was the MVP for his winning Argentinian team and even lead the Spurs in many respects (played point guard in crunch time alot).
Biased as well as a Spurs fan. I tend to think Parker gets a little underrated generally. I've got Ginobili right around 75 and thinks he stays around that unless he adds a FMVP to his resume, which is a very long shot.

Parker I've got a little higher currently and think he has a very good chance at being top 50 by the time his career is over. Accomplishment-wise, he's already past Manu and he's got a few extra years to add to that. He will almost definitely finish as a top 5-7 playoff scorer and top 3-4 playoff assist man in NBA history. For comparison, Ginobili will be lucky to break into the top 25 on either of those lists even though he played for the same Spurs team, albeit 1 less year.

But when you take all of Ginobili's injuries and crazy boneheaded plays (good with the bad for sure), I don't think you can put him above Parker. I mean, he had arguably one of the dumbest fouls of all-time in 2006 on Dirk. Then he had his only 8-turnover game that happened to be Game 6 of the 2013 Finals when he basically tried to throw the game. Then in G7 on the last play he just jumps in the air and throws it straight to Lebron. I love Ginobili as much as the next guy, but I think some of those potential championship-costing plays are almost inexcusable. Parker gives you the same ability to create and hit the game winners (2013 G1 & G6) or can flat out dominate (2014 Mavs G7) when you need him most. Add to that a way better overall resume (NBA) and I've got Parker finishing far higher in rank. Talent-wise, Ginobili's there, but he couldn't stay health or composed in some of the biggest moments.

ninephive

08-20-2014, 11:22 PM

Wherever Kevin Johnson Timmy Hardaway and Mark Price are Tony Parker should be behind them. Probably alongside Chauncey Billups. Manu behind Ray Allen T Mac Richmond and VC.
I really wish Parker would have got to knock those guys out of the playoffs like he does Paul, Curry, Nash, Billups, Deron, Kidd, etc. etc.

SCdac

08-20-2014, 11:40 PM

Biased as well as a Spurs fan. I tend to think Parker gets a little underrated generally. I've got Ginobili right around 75 and thinks he stays around that unless he adds a FMVP to his resume, which is a very long shot.

Parker I've got a little higher currently and think he has a very good chance at being top 50 by the time his career is over. Accomplishment-wise, he's already past Manu and he's got a few extra years to add to that. He will almost definitely finish as a top 5-7 playoff scorer and top 3-4 playoff assist man in NBA history. For comparison, Ginobili will be lucky to break into the top 25 on either of those lists even though he played for the same Spurs team, albeit 1 less year.

But when you take all of Ginobili's injuries and crazy boneheaded plays (good with the bad for sure), I don't think you can put him above Parker. I mean, he had arguably one of the dumbest fouls of all-time in 2006 on Dirk. Then he had his only 8-turnover game that happened to be Game 6 of the 2013 Finals when he basically tried to throw the game. Then in G7 on the last play he just jumps in the air and throws it straight to Lebron. I love Ginobili as much as the next guy, but I think some of those potential championship-costing plays are almost inexcusable. Parker gives you the same ability to create and hit the game winners (2013 G1 & G6) or can flat out dominate (2014 Mavs G7) when you need him most. Add to that a way better overall resume (NBA) and I've got Parker finishing far higher in rank. Talent-wise, Ginobili's there, but he couldn't stay health or composed in some of the biggest moments.

Eh, virtually every great player had bad moments in the playoffs. Are we going to conveniently forget that Manu made a huge, clutch 3 immediately before that dumb play in 2006? And holding what he's done post-35 years old against him seems unfair, given that he's clearly lost a few steps and athleticism. And in 2013 he was bogged with injuries all season and never looked himself. Yet he still hit a game-winning shot against Golden State in the playoffs!

As for Parker, in 2 of his 4 championships his role was much smaller and was getting benched at crucial times (see: 2003 Finals). In the 2005 Finals he was maybe not even the 3rd best or most important player on the Spurs (Duncan, Manu, Bowen, Horry, etc).

Both of them have benefited from playing with Tim Duncan and Greg Popovich and other great teammates, and I think it's whack when only one player (Manu) is pretty much treated like that, whereas Parker is treated like he's been on his "own" team which is patently false. Even this past season, Parker didn't even crack 30 mpg and at times looked better when he wasn't on the floor (Spurs were that deep).

Only reason I have Parker projected as being higher is he's probably going to get more seasons/minutes/shots in to his career (starting playing for the Spurs at 19 years old, vs. 25 years old for Manu). The Finals MVP I'm indifferent. After seeing Kawhi win Finals MVP, surely it puts perspective on the award itself.

SCdac

08-20-2014, 11:47 PM

Another thing that irks me, when Manu Ginobili was injured for the playoffs in 2009, Parker put up "big numbers" while the Spurs nearly got swept by the Mavs in the first round. Clearly, Spurs needed Manu, and have always needed Manu since they signed him. His win-% his higher than Parker's and when watching them irl it's not an all out surprise, Manu does more out there, is a better defender, and plays with more intensity than most players in the league.

ninephive

08-21-2014, 12:06 AM

Eh, virtually every great player had bad moments in the playoffs. Are we going to conveniently forget that Manu made a huge, clutch 3 immediately before that dumb play in 2006? And holding what he's done post-35 years old against him seems unfair, given that he's clearly lost a few steps and athleticism. And in 2013 he was bogged with injuries all season and never looked himself. Yet he still hit a game-winning shot against Golden State in the playoffs!

As for Parker, in 2 of his 4 championships his role was much smaller and was getting benched at crucial times (see: 2003 Finals). In the 2005 Finals he was maybe not even the 3rd best or most important player on the Spurs (Duncan, Manu, Bowen, Horry, etc).

Both of them have benefited from playing with Tim Duncan and Greg Popovich and other great teammates, and I think it's whack when only one player (Manu) is pretty much treated like that, whereas Parker is treated like he's been on his "own" team which is patently false. Even this past season, Parker didn't even crack 30 mpg and at times looked better when he wasn't on the floor (Spurs were that deep).

Only reason I have Parker projected as being higher is he's probably going to get more seasons/minutes/shots in to his career (starting playing for the Spurs at 19 years old, vs. 25 years old for Manu). The Finals MVP I'm indifferent. After seeing Kawhi win Finals MVP, surely it puts perspective on the award itself.
Yah, I was at both the Dirk foul game and the Golden State game you're talking about. When Ginobili hit that 3 after the huge comeback, it may have been the loudest I have ever heard the arena. It was a huge huge shot. Ginobili is the epitome of the good with the bad, because he negated it by fouling Dirk who would have just brought Dallas within one and the Spurs get the ball without a shot-clock. It just made so little sense to give that late help defense when Dirk was basically at the rim. It's more of a "be-aware" play...no 3s and no And-1s.

On the Golden State game, yah of course he hits the shot in 2 OT, but do we forget that he AIRBALLED his first game winner attempt? (And had a really good look). Of course Pop (who loves Ginobili) puts the ball in his hands like he did in G6 2013 OT where Ginobili doesn't even get a shot up. Pop always goes with Ginobili and sometimes it pays off. However, very often it doesn't and my argument would be that if Parker (who is better at creating his own shot and getting to the basket or free-throw line) would win as many, if not more, games if Pop didn't bench him at the end of big games. To me, it's unreal how many big games we've given away with Parker sitting on the bench.

ninephive

08-21-2014, 12:12 AM

WillC

08-21-2014, 04:04 AM

Wherever Kevin Johnson Timmy Hardaway and Mark Price are Tony Parker should be behind them. Probably alongside Chauncey Billups. Manu behind Ray Allen T Mac Richmond and VC.

I strongly disagree with this.

Tony Parker should be ahead of all of those point guards. I'll explain my opinion later when I have time.

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 04:21 AM

I strongly disagree with this.

Tony Parker should be ahead of all of those point guards. I'll explain my opinion later when I have time.
Price may have been a stretch but KJ and Timmy for sure. I don't think Parker was ever the 2nd best PG any season. Those two were and for a couple seasons after Magic retired could argue for that first spot along with Stockton.

BoutPractice

08-21-2014, 07:35 AM

Price may have been a stretch but KJ and Timmy for sure. I don't think Parker was ever the 2nd best PG any season. Those two were and for a couple seasons after Magic retired could argue for that first spot along with Stockton.
Call me crazy, but in my opinion Parker was the second best PG multiple seasons... especially confident about this in 2013.

In fact I would call Parker the second best PG in the league in 2009, 2012 and 2013, and he has an argument in 2007 and possibly other years.

Sounds insane? Not as much as you'd think. First of all, Parker was top 10 in MVP voting in as many as four years, so he was seen as belonging to that conversation. He was top 5 in 2012 and deserved to be even higher in 2013, but somehow ended up 6th. Incidentally, Tony Parker is 4th in MVP voting shares among active PGs, behind Paul, Nash, and DRose (who's a bit of a special case), supporting the idea that Parker can credibly be argued to be a top 3 PG of his era.

In 2006 he was a top 3 PG. He averaged 19 and 6 on 54% shooting for the 63 win Spurs, who fell to the Mavs in 7 games after a stupid late game foul. His competition at PG was MVP Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups averaging 18 and 8.5. Chris Paul was only a rookie and not really part of the conversation.

In 2007 he was top 3 with a case for top 2. He averaged 18.5 and 5.5 on 52% shooting for a title team and won the Finals MVP. Steve Nash was ahead of him, but the rest of the competition were Chauncey Billups, with a slightly less impressive season, and Gilbert Arenas if you consider him a point guard. You can credibly argue that he was better than both.

In 2009 he averaged 22 and 7 on 50% shooting for a 54 win team. The competition was Chris Paul, who was better, and Chauncey Billups, who clearly had a great impact but worse averages and wasn't carrying the same offensive load, as he was paired with high scoring Melo.

In 2012 he averaged 18 and 8, the first offensive option on a team that finished 50-16 and had a good shot at the championship.

In 2013 he averaged 20 and 7.5 and was the first offensive option for a team that ended up being a single shot away from the championship.

By the way, on the topic of Parker's career more broadly... How many point guards in the history of the game have played an integral part in as many as 4 championship (not talking about the Derek Fishers here) and been a player worthy of being called a "star" for 3 of them? Magic Johnson, Bob Cousy, and...?

Add to that resume the Finals MVP, six all-star selections, and what will undoubtedly be remarkable career totals (especially in the playoffs), and you've got a top 3 PG in a PG heavy era.

kshutts1

08-21-2014, 07:40 AM

Price may have been a stretch but KJ and Timmy for sure. I don't think Parker was ever the 2nd best PG any season. Those two were and for a couple seasons after Magic retired could argue for that first spot along with Stockton.
I'd say we wait until we hear his argument, though considering the names I assume it will center around achievements and accolades.

In terms of pure ability, I agree with your ranking of Parker. But there are other factors that can muddy up some rankings.

ninephive

08-21-2014, 01:04 PM

Call me crazy, but in my opinion Parker was the second best PG multiple seasons... especially confident about this in 2013.

In fact I would call Parker the second best PG in the league in 2009, 2012 and 2013, and he has an argument in 2007 and possibly other years.

Sounds insane? Not as much as you'd think. First of all, Parker was top 10 in MVP voting in as many as four years, so he was seen as belonging to that conversation. He was top 5 in 2012 and deserved to be even higher in 2013, but somehow ended up 6th. Incidentally, Tony Parker is 4th in MVP voting shares among active PGs, behind Paul, Nash, and DRose (who's a bit of a special case), supporting the idea that Parker can credibly be argued to be a top 3 PG of his era.

In 2006 he was a top 3 PG. He averaged 19 and 6 on 54% shooting for the 63 win Spurs, who fell to the Mavs in 7 games after a stupid late game foul. His competition at PG was MVP Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups averaging 18 and 8.5. Chris Paul was only a rookie and not really part of the conversation.

In 2007 he was top 3 with a case for top 2. He averaged 18.5 and 5.5 on 52% shooting for a title team and won the Finals MVP. Steve Nash was ahead of him, but the rest of the competition were Chauncey Billups, with a slightly less impressive season, and Gilbert Arenas if you consider him a point guard. You can credibly argue that he was better than both.

In 2009 he averaged 22 and 7 on 50% shooting for a 54 win team. The competition was Chris Paul, who was better, and Chauncey Billups, who clearly had a great impact but worse averages and wasn't carrying the same offensive load, as he was paired with high scoring Melo.

In 2012 he averaged 18 and 8, the first offensive option on a team that finished 50-16 and had a good shot at the championship.

In 2013 he averaged 20 and 7.5 and was the first offensive option for a team that ended up being a single shot away from the championship.

By the way, on the topic of Parker's career more broadly... How many point guards in the history of the game have played an integral part in as many as 4 championship (not talking about the Derek Fishers here) and been a player worthy of being called a "star" for 3 of them? Magic Johnson, Bob Cousy, and...?

Add to that resume the Finals MVP, six all-star selections, and what will undoubtedly be remarkable career totals (especially in the playoffs), and you've got a top 3 PG in a PG heavy era.
Great post. Add to that the fact that he has taken out all the best guards of his era in the playoffs:

2002: Gary Payton with 17.2 PPG on .500 shooting as a 19-year old rookie!
2003: Stephon Marbury, Derick Fisher, Steve Nash, & Jason Kidd
2004: Jason Williams on 21/8.5 on .527
2005: Earl Boykins, Luke Ridnour, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups
2006: Mike Bibby with 22.2 PPG on .510 shooting.
2007: Allen Iverson, Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Daniel Gibson to earn a FMVP.
2008: Steve Nash (29.6/7.0 !!! on .523), Chris Paul (Game-clinching shot in G7)
2009: Lost in R1 putting up 28.6/6.8 on .596
2010: Jason Kidd, and went for 17.3/5.4 for the playoffs (his worst run in the past 9 years)
2011: Lost in R1 putting up 19.7/5.2 to Mike Conley (who went for 14.3/6.2)
2012: Devin Harris, Chris Paul - went 20.1/6.8 for the playoffs.
2013: Steve Nash, Stephen Curry, Mike Conley - went for 20.6/7.0 for the playoffs.
2014: Devin Harris, Damien Lilliard, Russell Westbrook, Mario Chalmers

The bolded names include most of (pretty much all of) the best point guards in the league for the past 15 years, all of which Parker has knocked out. I know Parker gets to play with Tim Duncan (who averages all of TWO more PPG than him for their playoff careers). But you have to remember the guys Parker has knocked out have also played with Lebron James, Kevin Durant, LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki, Zach Randolph, Dwight Howard, Blake Griffin, Amare Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, & Shaquille O'Neal. So it's not like these other guys didn't have help.

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 01:36 PM

WillC

08-21-2014, 01:46 PM

Wherever Kevin Johnson Timmy Hardaway and Mark Price are Tony Parker should be behind them.

Ok, here goes...

At the age of 31, Tony Parker already has more regular season points than Johnson, Hardaway and Price.

I'm not a big fan of advanced statistics (and admittedly you could choose different ones to make alternative arguments), but Parker already has the highest career Win Shares of the four players.

Tony Parker has nearly as many playoff points (3,705) as Johnson, Hardaway and Price combined (3,787)! Again, by the age of 31.

Amongst all guards in NBA history, only Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Jerry West have more playoff points than Tony Parker. He has more playoff points than Magic Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, Oscar Robertson, etc. Again, by the age of 31.

Tony Parker has 4 championship rings (Johnson, Hardaway and Price have none between them).

It's probably worth me stating that, along with Scottie Pippen, Mark Price was my favourite player in the 1990s. He was spectacularly accurate from long range. However, injuries hurt his career and, despite a few years of very good play, it's nearly impossible to justify ranking him ahead of Tony Parker.

Tim Hardaway was a poor shooter in the playoffs (.393 FG%) and I believe he only got out of the first round twice. I can't take someone like that over a perennial winner like Parker.

Kevin Johnson is underrated by many fans. Much like Parker, he played in the shadows of more headline-grabbing point guards and, as a result, has an unfairly low number of All-Star and All-League selections. In terms of talent, he might give Parker the best run for his money.

But Parker's team success and playoff exploits blows the others out of the water.

Is it unfair to penalise Johnson, Hardaway and Price for playing on good-but-not-great teams? Maybe.

But if you try to examine each player in isolation (i.e. removing the team context), then you could argue that Kevin Garnett was better than Tim Duncan and peak Tracy Mcgrady was better than Kobe Bryant... but surely we'd be fools to rank them in such a way in the all-time rankings?

You have to look at career achievements, and there's no debating that Parker has achieved a lot more than Hardaway, Johnson and Price.

Gotterdammerung

08-21-2014, 01:59 PM

Normally I don't do hypotheticals, but if Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway played with Duncan they would take more shots away from Duncan or the rest of the team. They would be less likely to sublimate their ball dominant game within the system than the French Layup Machine. :no:

Since both Parker and Ginobili are part of the greatest winning trio in NBA playoff history, we should reward consistent excellence during the money season over brief spells of transcendent peaks that occurred in the regular season.

Each. And. Every. Time.

G.O.A.T

08-21-2014, 03:27 PM

Nice discussion everyone. Thanks for giving the thread a little life outside me and Kizzle. I really sincerely do appreciate everyone who follows the list and/or offers feedback. I hope you find these mini-profiles interesting enough to invest in my site or book whenever I get that up for availability. (My need deadline is February 1st 2015 btw, working with a better publisher now that doesn't make me put up my own money)

On the topic at hand, I will delve deeper into it as I get to Manu and Parkers spots on the list (as well as Price, Tim Hardaway and KJ) but I think Parker has, as some of you have suggested, seperated himself from point guards like the aforementioned who may have been more spectacular individually, but for a much shorter period of time and without the same kind of once in a generation team success. Since Duncan showed up, the Spurs have never won less than 50 games (except in shortened seasons where they won at an above 50 game pace) Parker has been durable and thrived in four distinctly different roles. As a young role playing PG from 2002-2005, as a second option from 2005-2008, as the teams best player (2009-2013) and last year as a veteran key cog picking his spots on a balanced team.

That's pretty impressive. Having individual and team success in four different but important roles is something few players have achieved. Though they are different types of players, Parker's career is shaping up like that of Joe Dumars or Dennis Johnson, guys who excelled in multiple roles over a decade plus span.

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 04:55 PM

I respect every ones opinions and can see the case for them all. But would yall put Parker over the likes of Chris Paul Gary Payton and Nate Archibald?

Gotterdammerung

08-21-2014, 05:57 PM

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 06:14 PM

It's the Wilt Chamberlain vs Bill Russell argument. Wilt was the better player but Russell had the greater career.

KJ Payton Price etc might've had higher peaks than Parker in their careers, making them the Wilt, but Parker's career is greater than all of them.
:yaohappy:
This isn't close to Wilt vs. Russell. Parker has never been the best player in the NBA. He's never been the best point guard in the NBA.

This is Elgin Baylor vs. John Havlicek.

G.O.A.T

08-21-2014, 06:36 PM

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/dam/assets/131122182746-vern-mikkelsen-112213.story-top.jpg
#127 Arild Verner Agerskov Mikkelsen

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 10 (9)
Primary Role(s): #2/#3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 15-10-2 on 40/77

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http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/lakers/news_121019_martin_650.jpg
#126 Slater Nelson Martin Jr.

Tier Classification: Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 11 (9)
Primary Role(s): #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
Prime Averages: 11-4-5 on 37/77

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]On November 2nd 1949, the NBA debuted as a new league with the merger of the BAA and NBL. The Lakers, winners of the 1948 NBL and 1949 BAA Championships, debuted two new players that day who would help them win four more titles in the next five seasons. They gave up their first round pick to use a territorial selection and take Vern Mikkelsen from Hamline University. They also signed Slater Martin from the University of Texas. In Mikkelsen the Lakers got a 6

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 06:44 PM

Did Jim Pollard make your list?

Gotterdammerung

08-21-2014, 07:39 PM

This isn't close to Wilt vs. Russell. Parker has never been the best player in the NBA. He's never been the best point guard in the NBA.

This is Elgin Baylor vs. John Havlicek.
You're missing the point. Missing the forest for the trees. :oldlol:

It's not who's the best player in a specific year or whatever 'moving the goalpost' technique up that sleeve.

It's just plain "who's better, Player X or Player Z" scenario.
Choosing either player demonstrates your criteria, and if you are consistent in applying that criteria across the board then you'll end up with an interesting list unlike the standard GOAT lists out there.

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 07:55 PM

You're missing the point. Missing the forest for the trees. :oldlol:

It's not who's the best player in a specific year or whatever 'moving the goalpost' technique up that sleeve.

It's just plain "who's better, Player X or Player Z" scenario.
Choosing either player demonstrates your criteria, and if you are consistent in applying that criteria across the board then you'll end up with an interesting list unlike the standard GOAT lists out there.
I see where you all are coming from. Parker has the rings and the other guys don't. A lot of foks have Hondo over Elgin Baylor on All-Time list because of the 8 rings to zero comparison. I've never seen them play, but reading up on them and from their peers, Elgin was the flat out better player. KJ, Price and Timmy don't have the rings but have the numbers and accolades to a certain extent.

KJ vs. Tony Parker. I think KJ was a better player. Parker had the better luck of playing with the GOAT PF. I don't think Tony is a bad player by any stretch, he's damn good.

Maybe because he's still playing and can do so much more. He's only 32 he still has a few years left as a top PG. Maybe because he's just very consistent. He never just had that break-put season numbers wise, compared to the current PG and the KJs and Timmy's. Like G.O.A.T said, Joe Dumars. Very consistent, didn't have the numbers his peers had, but got the job done. Billups is another.

It's not travesty to have Parker over them, but you could make a case for KJ and Timmy being over Parker also.

L.Kizzle

08-21-2014, 08:27 PM

If Tony Parker had Kevin Johnson's numbers, with four ring he's on Magic and Isiah level.

If Kevin Johnson had Tony Parker's numbers, he's Kenny Smith in Sacramento.

ninephive

08-21-2014, 10:50 PM

If Tony Parker had Kevin Johnson's numbers, with four ring he's on Magic and Isiah level.

If Kevin Johnson had Tony Parker's numbers, he's Kenny Smith in Sacramento.
What do you mean "if he had KJ's numbers?" Scoring-wise, they are practically identical:

Per-36 numbers:

Regular season:

KJ: 18.9
Parker: 18.8

Playoffs:

KJ: 18.8
Parker: 19.0

And KJ had a very short career and fell off drastically. In his 11th season, he averaged 9.5/4.9 - compare that with Parker who put up 20.3/7.6 in his 12th season. Parker's already played longer than KJ and probably has 3-5 more years. That's a huge difference.

G.O.A.T

08-24-2014, 03:35 PM

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/chris-bosh.jpg
#125 Christopher Wesson Bosh
[CENTER][B][SIZE="4"]6

DatAsh

08-24-2014, 03:47 PM

One thing I really like that you do is that you take into account a player's ability to play different roles, and what that means to team success. Personally, I'd rather have a player that is mediocre as a first option, but great as a second or third option, than a player who is great as a first option - though not great enough to win it all - and mediocre to bad as a second or third option. If you accept the fact that the first option player isn't good enough to win it all as a first option, is there every any scenario where he gives you a better chance of winning than the "role" player?

L.Kizzle

08-24-2014, 07:28 PM

Don't know how I feel about Bosh at that spot. I'm thinking he should be higher, but don't know what bigs might be over him?

Shawn Kemp
Ben Wallace
Jermaine O'Neal
Zelmo Beaty
Paul Gasol
Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Tom Heinsohn
Maurice Lucas

SouBeachTalents

08-24-2014, 09:24 PM

Bosh is someone imo that will probably be overrated as hell after his career is over. From his absurd amount of all-star selections to being a member of the "Big 3", he'll be considered a much better player than he actually was, especially by those who never watched him play.

To me, Bosh is a good player, but he's honestly just nothing special. He was never once relevant to the league in his Toronto days, he put up good numbers on a bad team, not much different from the likes of Elton Brand or Zach Randolph. I attribute him making 9 all-star games due to playing in the East, and I have a hard time believing he'd make even close to that amount had he been playing the West and competing with the likes of Duncan, KG, & Dirk for all-star spots.

Even his contributions in Miami haven't been that great. You cited some of the things he improved, such as his jump shooting and some aspects of his defense, which is commendable. But his impact on the Heat has honestly been underwhelming. He hasn't received any kind of accolade in his 4 seasons in Miami, not a single All-NBA or All-Defensive team selection, and he hasn't even garnered a single MVP vote.

Even what he's done in the playoffs hasn't been that impressive. He was injured for most of the 2012 playoffs and played decently, having maybe 3 good games in that run. However, you cannot say the same about his play 2013. He grabbed that rebound in Game 6 over someone 5 inches shorter than him, fine, but he was terrible in that playoff run, and ABYSMAL in the final two rounds. He averaged 11 & 6 on 42% in the ECF & Finals and got frequently outplayed and even dominated by Hibbert & Duncan.

In conclusion, Bosh is a good player, nothing more, nothing less, and would have absolutely irrelevant to the history of the league had he not joined a team with a top 10 & top 25 player of all time in their primes.

fpliii

08-24-2014, 09:37 PM

L.Kizzle

08-24-2014, 09:42 PM

Bosh is someone imo that will probably be overrated as hell after his career is over. From his absurd amount of all-star selections to being a member of the "Big 3", he'll be considered a much better than he actually was, especially by those who never watched him play.

To me, Bosh is a good player, but he's honestly just nothing special. He was never once relevant to the league in his Toronto days, he put up good numbers on a bad team, not much different from the likes of Elton Brand or Zach Randolph. I attribute him making 9 all-star games due to playing in the East, and I have a hard time believing he'd make even close to that amount had he been playing the West and competing with the likes of Duncan, KG, & Dirk for all-star spots.

Even his contributions in Miami have been far from impressive. You cited some of the things he improved, such as his jump shooting and some aspects of his defense, which is commendable. But his impact on the Heat has honestly been completely underwhelming. He hasn't received any kind of accolade in his 4 seasons in Miami, not a single All-NBA or All-Defensive team selection, and he never even garnered a single MVP vote.

Even his impact in the playoffs hasn't been that impressive He was injured for most of the 2012 playoffs and played decently, having maybe 3 good games in that run. However, you can't say the same about 2013. He grabbed that rebound in Game 6 over someone 5 inches shorter than, fine, but he was terrible in that playoff run, and ABYSMAL in the final two rounds. He averaged 11 & 6 on 42% in the ECF & Finals and got frequently outplayed and even dominated by Hibbert & Duncan.

In conclusion, Bosh is a good player, nothing more, nothing less, and would have absolutely irrelevant to the history of the league had he not joined a team with a top 10 & top 25 player of all time in their primes.
Have you watched Bosh in Miami, no plays ran for him.

His 5 All-Star years in Toronto, he's 23/10. And if Miami used him correctly, he's doin better than the 17/8, still not bad for someone who's a role player now. James Worthy and Robert Parish avg similar numbers.

There's really no difference between him and Gasol. Pau never got out the first round in Memphis, like Bosh. Over in LA, he wins two rings. And even being the clear cut 2nd banana over in LA, there numbers are very similar. 18/10 as #2 vs 17/8 as #3.

SouBeachTalents

08-24-2014, 09:56 PM

Have you watched Bosh in Miami, no plays ran for him.

His 5 All-Star years in Toronto, he's 23/10. And if Miami used him correctly, he's doin better than the 17/8, still not bad for someone who's a role player now. James Worthy and Robert Parish avg similar numbers.

There's really no difference between him and Gasol. Pau never got out the first round in Memphis, like Bosh. Over in LA, he wins two rings. And even being the clear cut 2nd banana over in LA, there numbers are very similar. 18/10 as #2 vs 17/8 as #3.

You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals

L.Kizzle

08-24-2014, 10:08 PM

You're right, Gasol & Bosh are basically on the same level as players. But even if you factor in what option they were, the difference in their playoff numbers & impact during their championship years is too great to ignore

Gasol 09-10: 19, 11, 3 on 56%, 19 & 18 in Game 7 of the Finals
Bosh 12-13: 13 & 8 on 47%, zero points in Game 7 of the Finals

As for Parish & Worthy in their championship years

Parish: 15 & 9 on 48%, 14 & 16 in Game 7 of the Finals
Worthy: 22, 6, 3 on 58%, 36, 16, 10 in Game 7 of the Finals
Well Parish and Worthy are much better than both. I Was just throwing 3rd option names out.

I think the 2nd vs. 3rd option is a major factor. If Bosh was a 2nd option throwing up a goose egg in a game 7, it would matter (and if they had lost.) But they won, and as you said his impact was minimal in the championship years.

He was not used correctly in the Big 3 era, anyone could see that.

L.A. Jazz

08-25-2014, 02:27 AM

Well Parish and Worthy are much better than both. I Was just throwing 3rd option names out.

I think the 2nd vs. 3rd option is a major factor. If Bosh was a 2nd option throwing up a goose egg in a game 7, it would matter (and if they had lost.) But they won, and as you said his impact was minimal in the championship years.

He was not used correctly in the Big 3 era, anyone could see that.
He was a 3rd option because of his talent but he got the same kind of shots Allen, Battier, Miller and their PGs got. Just passes out on double teams or drives by Lebron and D.Wade. AND he had to be the primary rebounder and bigmen defender. While Wade and sometimes Lebron rested on defense, letting Battier, Chalmers and others do the dirty work, Bosh was not allowed to rest.

Gasol vs Bosh is a nice debate, but i see Pau as the better player. Bosh is a little better on D but Pau is a true 1b-option on a contender. Thats something Bosh is not. He is versitile because of his 3s but you are not calling a isolation play for him in the clutch in the finals against a Garnett.

G.O.A.T

08-29-2014, 12:01 PM

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/seasonreviews/1957-58/george-yardley.jpg
#124 George Harry Yardley III

Vitals: 6'5" 190 lbs
Tier Classification: Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 1953-1960 (6 prime)
Primary Role(s) and Averages: #1/#2 on borderline contenders; 21-9-2 on 42/78

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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]Nicknamed Yardbird because of his Military background and his last name, he eventually became Bird as fans and opponents watched him rise to stardom right along with the NBA in the shot clock era. A high scoring, high flying forward, Yardley fought for a starting spot in 1954, got it and helped lead the Pistons to consecutive finals appearances, went on to set scoring records. Was traded the next season, some say, in part because the owners Girlfriend thought he was ugly. Helped revitalize an aging Syracuse team in 1959 and 1960 and retired on his terms while still playing the game at a high level. George Yardley played a game ahead of it

G.O.A.T

08-29-2014, 09:55 PM

http://nbahoopsonline.com/Articles/top160/photos/NeilJohnston.jpg
#123 Donald Neil Johnston

Vitals: 6'8" 210 lbs
Tier Classification: Elite Talents: Borderline Alphas
Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons): 1951-59 (6 prime)
Primary Role(s) and Averages: #1 on bad teams (3 years; 23-13-3 on 45/74)
#2 on Champions and contenders (3 years; 22-12-3 on 44/82)

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When he finished his collegiate days at Ohio State Neil Johnston thought he’d make his father happy and become a major league baseball player. But after an arm injury, as Johnston put it “I was a fastball pitcher with no fastball” and the 6’7” gangly strong Buckeye deciding to give the fledgling NBA a shot. After fighting for playing time his first season, the departure of forwards Joe Fulks (retirement) and Paul Arizin (Korean War) opened the door for Johnston to become the next scoring star in line for Eddie Gottlieb’s Philadelphia Warriors. Johnston played his entire career with the Warriors and his loyalty was rewarded by Gottlieb who made him head coach after his playing days. Johnston’s all-around offensive excellence allowed him to build a gaudy resume in his short career and as well playing a key role on a Championship team. That combination has allowed him to be remembered as one of the greatest players of his or any other era.

Resume: 8 seasons - 6x all-star, 5x all-NBA, 4x 1st Team all-NBA, 1956 NBA Champion, 3x Scoring leader, 1x rebounding leader, 3x fg% leader, 6x top ten PPG, 5x top ten RPG, 6x top ten fg%, 2x top ten ft%, 6x top ten WS (5x 1st), 6x top ten PER (1x 1st)

-stat junkies dream player
-played on four last place teams in eight seasons
-led league in MPG twice

What Makes Him Elite: Great scorer and athletic center for his era. He is remembered for his sweeping hook shot and one hand set shot which he made with remarkable consistency. Three-time scoring Champion and one of the most efficient shooters of his day. Won scoring titles while Mikan was still active; only player to do so are him and teammate Paul Arizin. Also a top rebounder (league leader in 1955) and a capable playmaker from the pivot. Second best player on 1956 NBA Champions, had a few 30+ games in that playoff run. Four-time all-NBA first team selection, only exceeded by Mikan in terms of centers drafted before 1959.

What are his Weaknesses/Limitations: Not a good defensive player; often gave up as many points as he scored. Got outplayed by lesser regarded rival centers Red Kerr (1957) and Larry Foust (1956) during playoff series in his prime. Only played in two other playoffs and was either injured or an insignificant factor in those years. Was famously held scoreless in 42 minutes against Bill Russell during Russell’s rookie year, that is often cited as the end of Johnston’s career as an all-star. He clearly struggled with larger more athletic big men coming to the league.

Peak Season: 1955-56 has to be the one. The leagues most efficient marksman at 46%, he was the Warriors seconding leading scorer, top rebounder and was third in assists as they won 45 games and lost just 27, making them six games better than anyone else in basketball. In the playoffs they survived a do or die game five against the defending Champion Nationals before rolling past the powerful Pistons in four games to one in the NBA Finals. Neil averaged 20 points a league best 14 rebounds and 5 assists for the playoffs despite struggling with his shot.

Low Point: Though many cite the Russell game as the end of Johnston’s career, it was really just a highlight of the weakness he had throughout his career. He was better suited to be a forward, but because of when he played, he was made a center. As a result he struggled mightily against larger men who were as athletic as he was. Even comparable players like Foust, Kerr and Harry Gallatin might bother Johnston but the likes of Russell and Chamberlain (who boasts of whooping Johnston while he was still in high school) were far too much for him to handle. After a knee injury during an exhibition game against St. Louis in 1958 cost Johnston what was left of his athleticism, Eddie Gottlieb moved him to head coach. That was his low point in my opinion as he struggled with Wilt Chamberlain who refused to listen to Johnston’s instructions or discipline in practice nor would he leave the game for a substitute when Johnston tried to replace him.

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