Wade - "Kobe is the best player of our era."

[DMAVS41]

Well, not gonna take sides... but people that use "winshares" to make an argument for "Player X > Player Y" are just being lazy. They need to do more research and understand there are holes using that garbage metric. Really that simple.




I said I would take 2007 Duncan over 2006 Arenas.

I just think they had similar impacts. Arenas beasted on offense, while Duncan dominated on defense. The true distinction is when you factor in the lack of defense for Arenas - it wasn't bad, but it wasn't like Kobe's which was, IMO, elite for his position.

Okay...let me say it a different way. I believe it's bat shit crazy to say Arenas had a similar impact in 06 to Duncan in 07. But, the reasons you ultimately take Duncan...are similar to the reasons I take Duncan over Kobe. So at least you should know where I'm coming from now.

Again, doesn't mean I'm right...I'm just not going to spend time debating you on a subject like this now that I know your thoughts broadly.

[SexSymbol]

Yes, Kobe is the best player of our era, what's there to discuss lol.
This thread doesn't warrant 17 pages, we all know that

[catch24]

Okay...let me say it a different way. I believe it's bat shit crazy to say Arenas had a similar impact in 06 to Duncan in 07.

Again, doesn't mean I'm right...I'm just not going to spend time debating you on a subject like this now that I know your thoughts broadly.

And I really don't see what that is based off of, but alright...

You're absolutely free to think what you want. :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

And I really don't see what that is based off of, but alright...

You're absolutely free to think what you want. :cheers:

It's based off all the things I've said that you disagree with...LOL

To throw a line back at you...you won't find many, if any, people that think 06 Arenas and 07 Duncan were equal players. In fact, I doubt you could find anyone that thinks they are roughly equal players. So it goes both ways.

But again...this explains why you think it's silly to take Duncan over Kobe. I get that now, but all I can say is I see the game much differently than you.

[rmt]

When Tim Legler picks Duncan over Kobe, you know it's gone mainstream. He hates Duncan and the Spurs.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14106055

What you guys need to ask yourself is who would you pick to start your franchise? If the goal is to win (and not sell jerseys), most GMs would pick Duncan.

Haven't read all the posts, but what's this about 06 Arenas? Have people forgotten that defense is half of the game?

[catch24]

It's based off all the things I've said that you disagree with...LOL

Like what?


To throw a line back at you...you won't found many, if any, people that think 06 Arenas and 07 Duncan were equal players. So it goes both ways.

I have Duncan over Arenas though...so I agree :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Like what?



I have Duncan over Arenas though, so I agree.

Like the value of defense and being able to anchor an elite defense, being team player, a leader, getting the most out of your teammates, making a huge impact without having to have the ball in your hands...so your teammates can excel.

But you obviously value wing scoring and ball dominant scoring to a huge degree. And that's fine, but I don't value that as highly as you...especially out of a player like Gilbert Arenas.

Okay...you'd take Duncan, but you've said it's very close. Again, imo, it's not remotely close. The idea that I'd draft 06 Arenas over 07 Duncan when starting a team is just absurd to me. It's not remotely close for me...

And that is why this is pointless and I don't want to get into why Duncan was far and away more valuable than Arenas in the respective years. I'm just not interested in a debate in which I can't be moved at all.

So I'm out...

[catch24]

Like the value of defense and being able to anchor an elite defense, being team player, a leader, getting the most out of your teammates, making a huge impact without having to have the ball in your hands...so your teammates can excel.

But you obviously value wing scoring and ball dominant scoring to a huge degree. And that's fine, but I don't value that as highly as you...especially out of a player like Gilbert Arenas.

Ben Wallace did the same thing with Detroit in 2005. Doesn't mean I would take him over Nash or Dirk that season (mediocre defenders for the most part).

I value everything, just like most, but I also rather have GREAT offense over GREAT defense. Still, and I want to make this clear, theres a difference between a bad defender (Arenas) and an elite one in spots (Kobe). Up until about 2010, Kobe was pretty DAMN good on both sides of the floor.

So to go along with his superior offensive output in 2007, I feel that Kobe played adequate enough defense to put him over 2007 Duncan...which is the original comparison here.


So I'm out...

Peace out

[DMAVS41]

Ben Wallace did the same thing with Detroit in 2005. Doesn't mean I would take him over Nash or Dirk that season (mediocre defenders for the most part).

I value everything, just like most, but I also rather have GREAT offense over GREAT defense. Still, and I want to make this clear, there is a difference with being a bad defender (Arenas) and an elite one in spots (Kobe). Kobe up until about 2010 has been pretty damn good on both sides of the floor.

So to go along with his superior offensive output in 2007, I feel that Kobe played adequate enough defense to put him over 2007 Duncan...which is the original comparison here.



Peace out


Okay...I have to respond to this then I'm done.

You are straw manning here. Ben Wallace is nowhere near the kind of offensive force Duncan was. You have to stop ignoring that Duncan was getting you 20 plus a night and more importantly...had the ability to do more when called upon.

I value great offense over great defense as well...but that isn't what this is about. This isn't Kobe vs Ben Wallace. It's Kobe vs a guy that can get you 20 plus a night and give you all time elite defense in a variety of ways.

You just have to stop acting like a guy that is averaging 22/12/3 in the playoffs is only a defensive player.

I know why you take Kobe...I have no issue with you taking Kobe. I just disagree...you were the one that said it makes no sense to you for someone to take Duncan unless you are coming off that as well.

I hope the thought experiments with Arenas at least give you an insight into why I take Duncan.

Anyway...done.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

That's a cool quote, doesn't change the fact that Duncan > Kobe.

6 pages later, I'm still right. :applause:

Duncan = GOAT PF, greatest player of the 2000s era onward. Brady = GOAT QB, greatest player of the 2000s era onward. Real recognize real. :bowdown:

[catch24]

Okay...I have to respond to this then I'm done.

You are straw manning here. Ben Wallace is nowhere near the kind of offensive force Duncan was. You have to stop ignoring that Duncan was getting you 20 plus a night and more importantly...had the ability to do more when called upon.

I value great offense over great defense as well...but that isn't what this is about. This isn't Kobe vs Ben Wallace. It's Kobe vs a guy that can get you 20 plus a night and give you all time elite defense in a variety of ways.

Everything you described in the post before this one...fit Ben Wallace to a T. Just saying. :oldlol:

I get why you value Duncan over Arenas. Most do. Including me.

I just don't understand why you would take that version of Duncan over 2007 Kobe given the differences I and a few others laid out here.

Your logic is basically "Arenas = Kobe".

You don't really believe that, right?


I have no issue with you taking Kobe. I just disagree...you were the one that said it makes no sense to you for someone to take Duncan unless you are coming off that as well.

Again...referring to the bold... I was only comparing their offensive impact. When you wanted to compare the all-around games, I made the clear distinction above.

[Showtime2001]

Kobe > Duncan.

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe > Duncan.

IMO Duncan > Kobe.

[Gus Hemmingway]

kobe fans getting SHITTED on in this thread:lol

[Showtime2001]

IMO Duncan > Kobe.
Your opinion nothing wrong with that.

:cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

Your opinion nothing wrong with that.

:cheers:

:cheers:

[tmacattack33]

Meh...just a dude saying something in the moment because all eyes are on Kobe's terribly surprising play thru the first two weeks of the season.

If everyone was talking about Duncan's play, we'd get a lot of Duncan quotes. Same for KG. Same for Lebron.

[DaOldLion]

For somebody who believes Dirk > KG DMAVS sure does value defense and advanced defensive metrics a lot :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Papaya Petee]

Wonder how many times DMAVS and Catch24 gonna say peace to each other before they stop debating :roll:


Good debate between you two!

[Wade's Rings]

Meh...just a dude saying something in the moment because all eyes are on Kobe's terribly surprising play thru the first two weeks of the season.

If everyone was talking about Duncan's play, we'd get a lot of Duncan quotes. Same for KG. Same for Lebron.

He said the same thing during the 2013 All-Star Break: http://www.lakersnation.com/nba-news-dwyane-wade-says-kobe-is-greatest-player-in-his-era/2013/02/15/

[DaOldLion]

He said the same thing during the 2013 All-Star Break: http://www.lakersnation.com/nba-news-dwyane-wade-says-kobe-is-greatest-player-in-his-era/2013/02/15/

shhhhh anytime any nba player says anything positive about Kobe we have to pretend like A) it didn't happen B) he's only saying it because "insert dumb excuse here" or C) Random Kobe hater on ISH's opinion > HOF NBA players

[Megabox!]

Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Lebron. The four greatest post Jordan. No one else comes close. You can pick any of those 4 and you will not be wrong. No matter how many posts you write, no matter how many lol's, in the end there are arguments for each one of them. No wonder they are IMO 4 of the top 10 greatest players of all time.
Well said

[Donkey4trading]

Seems like this is a common feeling among most players

Dirk on Kobe Bryant


Kobe 'greatest player in my generation

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4704056/dirk-kobe-greatest-player-in-my-generation

[SwishSquared]

Wade had more points, assists, steals, and blocks. Kobe had more TOV's.Yeah that's where the boost in PER comes from. PER lumps all counting stats together, essentially.

[Anaximandro1]

Players tend to say a lot of stupid things tbh

Scottie Pippen Says LeBron Is Better Than Jordan
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKBj4OK64kQ)


Where is Kobe ?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-e_c5WCRMcNw/VkVPvb9tfmI/AAAAAAAAE5M/MEWddAHYsNY/s1600/1.jpg

[RoseCity07]

Best scorer no doubt. Talk about players though? That's Wade, Dirk, and Duncan. All players the led their team to championships. Kobe needed Shaq and a stacked bench. He needed Gasol and Mr "Ship his ass out" Bynum. The real Kobe was the one that lost in the first round to the Suns. That guy that was finally "the man" and blew a 3-1 lead after Raja Bell whooped his ass. That is what Kobe was with no help.

[SexSymbol]

Best scorer no doubt. Talk about players though? That's Wade, Dirk, and Duncan. All players the led their team to championships. Kobe needed Shaq and a stacked bench. He needed Gasol and Mr "Ship his ass out" Bynum. The real Kobe was the one that lost in the first round to the Suns. That guy that was finally "the man" and blew a 3-1 lead after Raja Bell whooped his ass. That is what Kobe was with no help.
None of the players mentioned won with no help.
On the contrary they had great help.

[leMVP]

Wade is just praising an old foe.

He deeply knows as all of us, that Kobe never was the best player in that era.

[SexSymbol]

Wade is just praising an old foe.

He deeply knows as all of us, that Kobe never was the best player in that era.
He was in 06-10, for five straight years.

[West-Side]

Players tend to say a lot of stupid things tbh

Scottie Pippen Says LeBron Is Better Than Jordan
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKBj4OK64kQ)


Where is Kobe ?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-e_c5WCRMcNw/VkVPvb9tfmI/AAAAAAAAE5M/MEWddAHYsNY/s1600/1.jpg


"Starting a franchise" is the poll, not best player Sherlock. :oldlol:
Kobe was like 27 in 2006, and LeBron was like 21.

No brainer there.

[ArbitraryWater]

"Starting a franchise" is the poll, not best player Sherlock. :oldlol:
Kobe was like 27 in 2006, and LeBron was like 21.

No brainer there.

So why didnt they take Kobe over Duncan then? :oldlol:

I love that graph :banana:

[West-Side]

So why didnt they take Kobe over Duncan then? :oldlol:

I love that graph :banana:

Duncan was the better player in 2002, 2003, 2004 & 2005.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

None of the players mentioned won with no help.
On the contrary they had great help.

Duncan's carry in 2003 > any championship run of Kobe's. By a ****ing lot.

[West-Side]

Duncan's carry in 2003 > any championship run of Kobe's. By a ****ing lot.

It's all circumstantial though.
I thought it was very impressive that Kobe even managed to make the playoffs in 2006 & 2007, and nearly upsetting the Suns.

He had Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Vlad Radmanovic as starters. He had ONE decent player on the team in Lamar Odom.

If you really think about it, most of those players vanished as soon as they left the Lakers.

Duncan was incredible in 2003, same with Dirk in 2011; but c'mon they still had A LOT more than what Kobe had in 2006/07 but less than what Kobe had in 08 - 10'.

However, Kobe made the NBA finals THREE straight years with that group of guys, so I'd say he made the most of what he got.

It's never so black and white.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

That's why I said that Duncan's 2003 was better than any championship run of Kobe's. :confusedshrug:

No one wins without help, basketball is a team game, but Duncan didn't have much in '03.

[HOoopCityJones]

That's why I said that Duncan's 2003 was better than any championship run of Kobe's. :confusedshrug:

No one wins without help, basketball is a team game, but Duncan didn't have much in '03.


Had Tony and Manu, no?

[RRR3]

Had Tony and Manu, no?
TP in the 03 playoffs: 15/3/4 on 40%
Manu: 9/4/3 on 39%



Wow so much help

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Had Tony and Manu, no?

A second year Tony Parker putting up 14.7 PPG on 40% in the playoffs (2nd in scoring for SA) and a rookie Manu putting up 9.4 on 38%. Duncan averaged 24.7/15.4 on 52.9% through the playoffs and 24.2/17 on 49.5% in the finals.

[ShawkFactory]

A second year Tony Parker putting up 14.7 PPG on 40% in the playoffs (2nd in scoring for SA) and a rookie Manu putting up 9.4 on 38%. Duncan averaged 24.7/15.4 on 52.9% through the playoffs and 24.2/17 on 49.5% in the finals.
5 apg too. Led the team

[ArbitraryWater]

Had Tony and Manu, no?

Why not add David Robinson if its just about names, 3 HoF's, GOAT help, no?

[RRR3]

Why not add David Robinson if its just about names, 3 HoF's, GOAT help, no?
Also all-stars Steve Smith and Kevin Willis, legendary shooter Steve Kerr, and 20/5/5 player Stephen Jackson :eek:


GOAT help

[HOoopCityJones]

Why not add David Robinson if its just about names, 3 HoF's, GOAT help, no?

I let him slide on David since he was clearly on the downside of his career, but i think some of you would underrate his defense and rebounding contributed to the Team.

He averaged 1.3 blks per game with 6.6 reb in 2003. Next to a prime Tim Duncan he wouldn't have to contribute much Offense.

[Donkey4trading]

Hey guys let me guess.. Tony Parker's 15 ppg and Manu's 9/4 is SHIT, NO HELP

Stephen Jackson's 13/4 is SHIT, NO HELP, D Rob's 18 PER is NO HELP

but 6/4 Bynum and 9/8 Odom make up 2/3rds of the GOAT front court

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[HOoopCityJones]

Hey guys let me guess.. Tony Parker's 15 ppg and Manu's 9/4 is SHIT, NO HELP

Stephen Jackson's 13/4 is SHIT, NO HELP, D Rob's 18 PER is NO HELP

but 6/4 Bynum and 9/8 Odom make up 2/3rds of the GOAT front court

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Exactly.

http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/272694-2/Lakers+2009+team+picture+wallpaper.jpg


Goat supporting cast. :bowdown:

[Showtime2001]

Hey guys let me guess.. Tony Parker's 15 ppg and Manu's 9/4 is SHIT, NO HELP

Stephen Jackson's 13/4 is SHIT, NO HELP, D Rob's 18 PER is NO HELP

but 6/4 Bynum and 9/8 Odom make up 2/3rds of the GOAT front court

:oldlol: :oldlol:
Kobe double standard.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Hey guys let me guess.. Tony Parker's 15 ppg and Manu's 9/4 is SHIT, NO HELP

Stephen Jackson's 13/4 is SHIT, NO HELP, D Rob's 18 PER is NO HELP

but 6/4 Bynum and 9/8 Odom make up 2/3rds of the GOAT front court

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Both were inefficient and untested. Sophomore and rookie players, respectively.

Stephen Jackson was also inefficient, shooting 41.4% from the field through the playoffs.

Pau Gasol (16.2/9.6 on 58%, 19.6/11.1 on 53.9%) was Kobe's primary help through the '09-'10 championship runs and he was better by a mile than anyone on the '03 Spurs not named Tim Duncan. I think that David Robinson probably was the second best player on that Spurs team (though it was in limited minutes) and have said nothing to discredit him.

If you'd like to mention PER without context though, Pau posted PERs of 21.9 and 24, significantly better than anyone not named Tim Duncan on the Spurs. Duncan in '03 had less help than Kobe in '09/'10, that's a fact.

[Donkey4trading]

see how they try to immediately compare 09 supporting cast to Duncan's 03 instead of addressing the fact that they will call 6/4 Bynum and 9/8 Odom as 2/3rds of the GOAT front-court while at the same time Parker's 15ppg, Manu's 9/4, D Rob's defense and Jackson 13/4 is NO HELP, TERRIBLE CAST

I'm not saying that Kobe's supporting cast in 09 was worse than Duncans in 03 I'm just pointing out how hilarious it is to see the same posters ITT who prop up Bynum and Odom as being 2/3rds of the GOAT frontcourts sit here and scoff at Parker, Manu, Jax and D Rob's production as being absolute shit..

6/4 from Bynum helps make up part of the GOAT froncourt, yet Manu's 9/4, Jax 13/4 and Tony's 15ppg is NOT SHIT

:lol :lol

[Cold soul]

Wade is just praising an old foe.

He deeply knows as all of us, that Kobe never was the best player in that era.


Yes, he does believe whatever you want.

[feyki]

Kobe fans thinks ;

Kobe > Duncan x5

As a real ;

Duncan > Kobe x2


:oldlol: