"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

[HoopsNY]

Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.

22/7/6 on 48-50% was his standard, with similar numbers on poor efficiency in the playoffs, even when healthy. We saw that in 1994 and 1995. How does that override what Ewing did, leading his team to a better record, or what guys like Robinson did, which included actually winning an MVP?

If Pippen was clearly the better player like 97 bulls is claiming, then Chicago had a better 1-2 punch in Pippen/Grant over Ewing/Starks. Yet somehow Chicago lost?

[HoopsNY]

quick question to end your agenda and ish career

which #2 option would you trade scottie for? of all the teams you played who are you trading pippen for?

in 97 you trading pip for hornacek?
94 you trading pip for starks?
92 you trading pip for teryr porter?

you get the message baby girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl

None. He's a disingenuous fan. At best he might say Kemp or Penny, but that's a stretch because 1991-93 Pippen was better than those guys.

[And1AllDay]

None. He's a disingenuous fan. At best he might say Kemp or Penny, but that's a stretch because 1991-93 Pippen was better than those guys.

penny on a 1 yr rental maybe but pippens girth for 8 years of service is unbeatable 91 to 98

kemp is a joke :oldlol: i hope

[Phoenix]

Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson actually winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.

Ah yeah there's nothing in my post that even remotely infers I'm talking about David Robinson, or anyone else really. Frankly the MVP topic is whatever, I do know that the term 'best non-center' was thrown around alot in reference to Scottie in that 94-95 period.

[HoopsNY]

penny on a 1 yr rental maybe but pippens girth for 8 years of service is unbeatable 91 to 98

kemp is a joke :oldlol: i hope

You had to watch Kemp in the playoffs from '95-'97. The impact he brought against the likes of Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, and Rodman down low can't be ignored. Kemp was legit. But I still wouldn't take Kemp then as opposed to Pippen from 1991-94, per say.

[HoopsNY]

Ah yeah there's nothing in my post that even remotely infers I'm talking about David Robinson, or anyone else really. Frankly the MVP topic is whatever, I do know that the term 'best non-center' was thrown around alot in reference to Scottie in that 94-95 period.

I don't mean you. I'm asking you but in relation to the claims 97 bulls is making.

[97 bulls]

No one is claiming players get a pass. But when you're going to go with All-NBA votes or any voting, then you have to be on the court for them to give you votes.

Here's something to consider. Pippen was All NBA 3rd team in 1998, but he missed 38 games. Do you honestly think if Pippen was healthy that he'd get less votes than Vin Baker (All-NBA 2nd Team)?

My point is that totaling votes for these awards without context does little justice to the discussion.

Pippen was injured too Hoops. Now were penalizing him because he played through injury unlike others? 22/7/6 on 50% shooting while running the number 1 rated offense and anchoring the number 1 rated defense and being the best defender in the league? That's great impact.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen was injured too Hoops. Now were penalizing him because he played through injury unlike others? 22/7/6 on 50% shooting while running the number 1 rated offense and anchoring the number 1 rated defense and being the best defender in the league? That's great impact.

You're dodging the premise of my post. The point is that Pippen not being All-NBA 1st or 2nd team via votes has nothing to do with ability when we look at 1998.

Similarly, it's unfair to look at 1994-96, collectively, while not considering the same for all the guys previously mentioned.

[Phoenix]

22/7/6 on 48-50% was his standard, with similar numbers on poor efficiency in the playoffs, even when healthy. We saw that in 1994 and 1995. How does that override what Ewing did, leading his team to a better record, or what guys like Robinson did, which included actually winning an MVP?

If Pippen was clearly the better player like 97 bulls is claiming, then Chicago had a better 1-2 punch in Pippen/Grant over Ewing/Starks. Yet somehow Chicago lost?

Dude, why do you keep bringing up other players in this manner? I was talking about what Scottie was doing for the first half of 1996. That's it. Why are you bringing Patrick Ewing or David Robinson into this? I havent referenced anything about Scottie in contrast to those guys in any posts above. You're bringing up talking points between you and 97 Bulls and injecting them into your replies to me. Can we keep replies within the context of what a particular post is saying?

[97 bulls]

Ah yeah there's nothing in my post that even remotely infers I'm talking about David Robinson, or anyone else really. Frankly the MVP topic is whatever, I do know that the term 'best non-center' was thrown around alot in reference to Scottie in that 94-95 period.

In this video. Isiah Thomas says Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league after Jordan over the last 4-5 years. I believe he said that in 98.

https://youtu.be/z1hfI8kjriM

[HoopsNY]

Dude, why do you keep bringing up other players in this manner? I was talking about what Scottie was doing for the first half of 1996. That's it. Why are you bringing Patrick Ewing or David Robinson into this? I havent referenced anything about Scottie in contrast to those guys in any posts above. You're bringing up talking about between you and 97 Bulls and injecting then into your replies to me. Can we keep replies within the context of what a particular post is saying?

Once again, I'm asking you (as an impartial person) in relation to what 97 bulls said. I should have specified that in my posts so please excuse me.

[97 bulls]

You're dodging the premise of my post. The point is that Pippen not being All-NBA 1st or 2nd team via votes has nothing to do with ability when we look at 1998.

Similarly, it's unfair to look at 1994-96, collectively, while not considering the same for all the guys previously mentioned.

I'm not dodging anything. I accepted your assertion that Barkley lost out in the All-NBA voting to Pippen because he was injured. I only said, SO WAS PIPPEN. Why are the standards different?

[Phoenix]

Once again, I'm asking you (as an impartial person) in relation to what 97 bulls. I should have specified that in my posts so please excuse me.

You're asking me do I think Scottie balling out for half the 96 season supersedes the Admiral winning MVP in 94? No, though I'm not sure what one really has to do with the other, but I only skimmed through some of the earlier posts hence why my comments weren't focused on Scottie vs player X. Mostly I'm just tired of the conversations around him( not your comments specifically) being dragged through the mud of camps on either side of the MJ/Lebron debate. You literally cannot discuss the guy here before the discussion goes to shit by the 3rd post.

[HoopsNY]

You're asking me do I think Scottie balling out for half the 96 season supersedes the Admiral winning MVP in 94? No, though I'm not sure what one really has to do with the other, but I only skimmed through some of the earlier posts hence why my comments weren't focused on Scottie vs player X. Mostly I'm just tired of the conversations around him( not your comments specifically) being dragged through the mud of camps on either side of the MJ/Lebron debate.

Fair enough

[Phoenix]

In this video. Isiah Thomas says Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league after Jordan over the last 4-5 years. I believe he said that in 98.

https://youtu.be/z1hfI8kjriM

I always liked that vid. Theres another one, think 'Ultimate defender's or something like that that's a great watch too. You've probably seen it.

[97 bulls]

I always liked that vid. Theres another one, think 'Ultimate defender's or something like that that's a great watch too. You've probably seen it.

I did see that video. What I find interesting is the comments. Stark contrast from what we see in this forum.

[Phoenix]

I did see that video. What I find interesting is the comments. Stark contrast from what we see in this forum.

Admins allowed this forum to become a troll fest. Real, good faith basketball discussion occurs very far away from here.

[97 bulls]

Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson actually winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.

I'm saying Pippen was a top 5 player. Definitely in the conversation.

You seem to think that's preposterous. That he wasnt that highly regarded. That's when you get inundated with a plethora of information from Coaches, players, GMs, the media, and even fans. At some point, it's not cherry picking as you called it.

I mean, Pippen was getting praise by some of the most arrogant players the league has ever seen in guys like MJ and Barkley, perhaps his biggest enemy (Isiah Thomas) said he was the 2nd best player after Jordan over the last 4-5 seasons. We got more guys calling him what I call him than what you call him.

Maybe you need to reevaluate your assessment bro. I mean, theres no reason for people to lie for Pippen. Prior to MJs retirement, people were calling the Bulls a one man show. It was Michael and the Jordanaires. They saw the growth.

[97 bulls]

Admins allowed this forum to become a troll fest. Real, good faith basketball discussion occurs very far away from here.

:lol:oldlol::roll::cheers:

[And1AllDay]

You had to watch Kemp in the playoffs from '95-'97. The impact he brought against the likes of Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, and Rodman down low can't be ignored. Kemp was legit. But I still wouldn't take Kemp then as opposed to Pippen from 1991-94, per say.

pippen provided full service for 8 years man dont discredit that

anyone in the bball would kill to trade their #2 option for pipp

any team from the 90s would

[97 bulls]

pippen provided full service for 8 years man dont discredit that

anyone in the bball would kill to trade their #2 option for pipp

any team from the 90s would

Both Barkely and Drexler publicly said that Jordan had Pippen when he faced their teams. Barkely said it to his Jordans face. And Jordan never denied or argued it.

[90sgoat]

Both Barkely and Drexler publicly said that Jordan had Pippen when he faced their teams. Barkely said it to his Jordans face. And Jordan never denied or argued it.

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Danny Ainge, Dan Majerle, which is waaay more talent than Pippen and Grant.

[3ball]

of all the teams you played what #2 option are you trading pippen for?





If I'm only allowed to compare Pippen to 2nd options, then you're conceding that he's already below elite 1st options like Ewing or Drexler.

So Ewing and Drexler are above Pippen.

Now let's talk 2nd options (below).






of all the teams you played what #2 option are you trading pippen for?





Stockton/Malone were old when they destroyed Shaq, Duncan and Hakeem to make the 98' Finals, so Stockton/MJ would've done the same thing and won every year, especially PEAK stockton.

Peak Stockton averaged 17/14 with 3 steals, so he would've won with MJ right away... And again, they would win in 98' as experienced, older players just like Stockton/Malone did..

Ultimately, Stockton has twice as many all-nba as Pippen with superior stats across the board (8th all-time in BPM) and won 50 games with deep runs for 20 years - so you're simply discounting Stockton's accomplishments because MJ stopped him from winning the title.. You're ranking by ring count (6 to 0), but stockton played FAR better than pippen ever did.

There's tons of other examples (below)






of all the teams you played what #2 option are you trading pippen for?





Pippen was outplayed by Penny in 95' and 96', who was viewed as superior... And the 96' Finals saw Pippen get destroyed by Kemp or Payton - Krause started trying to trade Pippen for Kemp after the series.. Pippen was trade bait a number of times.

Furthermore, Jordan had to deal with young Pippen, who was literally a bum in 88' and 89' - anyone would've been better than Pippen those years and he was easy to trade... 90' Dumars was all-nba and 1st team defense, while Pippen was nothing and outplayed in the ECF... Tons of GM's would've traded Pippen for Dumars at that time.

And there's tons of other examples... Larry Johnson (LJ) was the #1 pick in 92' and rode high for a while, including a destruction of Pippen in the 95' first round as 2nd option... Tons of GM's would've traded Pippen for Johnson if it was a solid deal around that time... Ditto for 97' Juwan Howard, who destroyed Pippen in the 1st Round and people were extremely high on him at the time.

[97 bulls]

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Danny Ainge, Dan Majerle, which is waaay more talent than Pippen and Grant.

That's not the way they saw it. Drexler had great teammates as well. I only stated that to show how Hall of fame players felt at that time.

[3ball]

Both Barkely and Drexler publicly said that Jordan had Pippen when he faced their teams. Barkely said it to his Jordans face. And Jordan never denied or argued it.


The 92' Blazers and 91' Lakers had better-ranked defense, rebounding, and FAR more scorers than Bulls.

Those Blazers had 2 all-star scorers after Drexler, while a 3rd scorer (Jerome Kersey) was a frequent 20 ppg scorer and led the team in scoring for the 90' Western Playoffs - this allowed Drexler to average only 18 while making those Finals (stacked team).

In addition to having 4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls, the Blazers had perennial all-defender Buck Williams, who was far superior to Grant.

And the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17+ in the Finals (4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls)

Similarly, the 96' Sonics and 93' Suns had far more scorers and nearly the same ranked defense.

Only the Jazz didn't have more talent than the Bulls

[Sarcastic]

Not only was he never the best player in the NBA, I'd argue that he wasn't even top 5 in any of those seasons. He's was a top 10ish level player for most of his career.

[And1AllDay]

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Danny Ainge, Dan Majerle, which is waaay more talent than Pippen and Grant.

:oldlol::roll::roll:

[97 bulls]

The 92' Blazers and 91' Lakers had better-ranked defense, rebounding, and FAR more scorers than Bulls.

Those Blazers had 2 all-star scorers after Drexler, while a 3rd scorer (Jerome Kersey) was a frequent 20 ppg scorer and led the team in scoring for the 90' Western Playoffs - this allowed Drexler to average only 18 while making those Finals (stacked team).

In addition to having 4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls, the Blazers had perennial all-defender Buck Williams, who was far superior to Grant.

And the 91' Lakers had 4 guys average 17+ in the Finals (4 scorers to only 2 for the Bulls)

Similarly, the 96' Sonics and 93' Suns had far more scorers and nearly the same ranked defense.

Only the Jazz didn't have more talent than the Bulls

I see your point. The Suns and Blazers had a lot of depth. But that's not quite how sports works. Would you trade 5 Hinad Accords for 1 Lamborghini?

The Bulls were constructed differently. They had guys that were great at doing what was asked of them. They Didnt need Pax and Kerr to score 20 a night. They needed then to be the best sharpshooters in the game and they were. Theh didnt need their Centers to dominate offensively, they needed then to set good hard picks for Jordan and Pippen, rebound and play defense. And hit the open jumper. They didnt need Grant and Rodman to score 20/10. They needed them to play tough defense and rebound. And they were the best at it.

That's why I say the easy some evaluate these players is more video game type stuff. Not real life basketball.

[97 bulls]

Not only was he never the best player in the NBA, I'd argue that he wasn't even top 5 in any of those seasons. He's was a top 10ish level player for most of his career.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion. So tell us. Why do you think Pippen is so highly regard by so many? By the professionals?

[3ball]

:oldlol::roll::roll:


Suns had 3 all-star scoring options (only 2 for Bulls), plus this guy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk&t=07m40s


They had more talent than the Bulls

[tpols]

I see your point. The Suns and Blazers had a lot of depth. But that's not quite how sports works. Would you trade 5 Hinad Accords for 1 Lamborghini?

The Bulls were constructed differently. They had guys that were great at doing what was asked of them. They Didnt need Pax and Kerr to score 20 a night. They needed then to be the best sharpshooters in the game and they were. Theh didnt need their Centers to dominate offensively, they needed then to set good hard picks for Jordan and Pippen, rebound and play defense. And hit the open jumper. They didnt need Grant and Rodman to score 20/10. They needed them to play tough defense and rebound. And they were the best at it.

That's why I say the easy some evaluate these players is more video game type stuff. Not real life basketball.

If you swapped MJ and Clyde, the Blazers wouldve easily won. He was the difference maker and took over that series.

[ImKobe]

That's not the way they saw it. Drexler had great teammates as well. I only stated that to show how Hall of fame players felt at that time.

Majerle was better than him in that Finals series. They needed Jordan to average 41 and it was still anyone's series. That alone tells you that Pippen was not that good. Suns had 4 of the 6 best players in the '93 Finals but Jordan pulled off the all-time carry job.


If you swapped MJ and Clyde, the Blazers wouldve easily won. He was the difference maker and took over that series.

100%. Also, you could replace Pippen with Clyde and the Bulls still win 6 championships, maybe even more if you put Clyde on the Bulls in '89.

[97 bulls]

If you swapped MJ and Clyde, the Blazers wouldve easily won. He was the difference maker and took over that series.

The 92 Blazers without Drexler were 2-4. We saw what the Bulls could do without Jordan in 94. Just in case you forgot, the Bulls won 55 games.

And before you try to argue sample size. Dont forget that you guys base players whole careers on what they did in a 5, 6, or 7 game playoff series.

[97 bulls]

Majerle was better than him in that Finals series. They needed Jordan to average 41 and it was still anyone's series. That alone tells you that Pippen was not that good. Suns had 4 of the 6 best players in the '93 Finals but Jordan pulled off the all-time carry job.



100%. Also, you could replace Pippen with Clyde and the Bulls still win 6 championships, maybe even more if you put Clyde on the Bulls in '89.

Again. More revisionist history. I vividly remember a commercial the Bulls put out asking the fans to celebrate safely when they won the series when the Bulls went up 3-1 and had game 5 in Chicago. The Bulls never feared the Suns.

The only Series that scared me was the 98 series vs the Jazz. And that's only because Pippen hurt his back in game 6.

[ImKobe]

Again. More revisionist history. I vividly remember a commercial the Bulls put out asking the fans to celebrate safely when they won the series when the Bulls went up 3-1 and had game 5 in Chicago. The Bulls never feared the Suns.

The only Series that scared me was the 98 series vs the Jazz. And that's only because Pippen hurt his back in game 6.

Ok, and? How did they lose Game 5? Jordan had 41/7/7 on 16/29 FG to Barkley's 24/6/6 on 9/18 FG, surely the Bulls blew them out since MJ had the much better team, right?

'97 Finals was just as close, and that's with a better MJ and Pippen. It wasn't as scary because Bulls had home court. We need to stop underrating the Bulls' competition. This wasn't a thing until the 2010s, now Pippen's all of a sudden a top 3 player of his era and the Bulls were SO much better than everyone else.

[97 bulls]

Ok, and? How did they lose Game 5? Jordan had 41/7/7 on 16/29 FG to Barkley's 24/6/6 on 9/18 FG, surely the Bulls blew them out since MJ had the much better team, right?

The Bulls lost because much like what they did in Seattle, they began to coast when they felt comfortable.



'97 Finals was just as close, and that's with a better MJ and Pippen. It wasn't as scary because Bulls had home court. We need to stop underrating the Bulls' competition. This wasn't a thing until the 2010s, now Pippen's all of a sudden a top 3 player of his era and the Bulls were SO much better than everyone else.

I feel the Bulls had great competition. I don't subscribe to the notion that the NBA was watered down in the 90s. But I'm also not gonna underrate the Bulls outside of MJ.

[Bawkish]

The 92 Blazers without Drexler were 2-4. We saw what the Bulls could do without Jordan in 94. Just in case you forgot, the Bulls won 55 games.

And before you try to argue sample size. Dont forget that you guys base players whole careers on what they did in a 5, 6, or 7 game playoff series.

Bulls winning 55 games in 1994 was something expected for defending champs but not really a special one just because MJ was out. Remember, 1993 Bulls underachieved and should've won more than 57 games. MJ & Pip were practically exhausted the whole 1993 season because they literally got no resting period because of the Olympics.

Saying Pip carried the 1994 Bulls was what should be expected, but nothing too spectacular to elevate Pip's status as top 5

[eliteballer]

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest/portland-trail-blazers/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-clyde-drexlers-injury-prior-92-finals

[HoopsNY]

I'm saying Pippen was a top 5 player. Definitely in the conversation.

You seem to think that's preposterous. That he wasnt that highly regarded. That's when you get inundated with a plethora of information from Coaches, players, GMs, the media, and even fans. At some point, it's not cherry picking as you called it.

Of course it isn't preposterous, but to claim #2 is. I agree it's a conversation where entering him into the top 5 during that time is concerned.


I mean, Pippen was getting praise by some of the most arrogant players the league has ever seen in guys like MJ and Barkley, perhaps his biggest enemy (Isiah Thomas) said he was the 2nd best player after Jordan over the last 4-5 seasons. We got more guys calling him what I call him than what you call him.


Because players make claims all the time. Some are right, some are wrong, some are interpreted differently to others, and some are specific to a time.


Maybe you need to reevaluate your assessment bro. I mean, theres no reason for people to lie for Pippen. Prior to MJs retirement, people were calling the Bulls a one man show. It was Michael and the Jordanaires. They saw the growth.

I never denied this. My point is that:

- Pippen was a top 8 player between 1994-96.

- Pippen is in the discussion for top 5, though not likely over guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, MJ, and Ewing. Hence I would put him at #8.

- It is absurd to put him at #2 during that stretch.

- If you want to say he's definitively #5 then I would disagree. But saying he's #2, even within the discussion, is much more absurd than me and mehya saying he's #8.

[tpols]

Ok, and? How did they lose Game 5? Jordan had 41/7/7 on 16/29 FG to Barkley's 24/6/6 on 9/18 FG, surely the Bulls blew them out since MJ had the much better team, right?

'97 Finals was just as close, and that's with a better MJ and Pippen. It wasn't as scary because Bulls had home court. We need to stop underrating the Bulls' competition. This wasn't a thing until the 2010s, now Pippen's all of a sudden a top 3 player of his era and the Bulls were SO much better than everyone else.

Yup...

MJ was the difference in the Suns series too. The Bulls needed a super clutch paxson shot to win in game 6, and that was with MJ averaging 40.

Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, and Thunder Dan were all All Stars. And MJ outplayed Clyde and Barkley.

[97 bulls]

Bulls winning 55 games in 1994 was something expected for defending champs but not really a special one just because MJ was out. Remember, 1993 Bulls underachieved and should've won more than 57 games. MJ & Pip were practically exhausted the whole 1993 season because they literally got no resting period because of the Olympics.

Saying Pip carried the 1994 Bulls was what should be expected, but nothing too spectacular to elevate Pip's status as top 5

I dont disagree. They were that talented. I was only responding to this notion that if you switch Jordan and Drexler, the Blazers are the better team. Vehemently disagree.

[mehyaM24]

You are obviously entitled to your opinion. So tell us. Why do you think Pippen is so highly regard by so many? By the professionals?

barkley, a professional, also thought pippen was selfish. and that he would never win without jordan.

https://spacecityscoop.com/2020/05/20/charles-barkley-thoughts-scottie-pippen-houston-rockets/

nick anderson, another professional, thought 95 jordan was best in the world. meanwhile you think its ridiculous because mj only played 17 games. if pros are the alleged "gold standard" then explain this.

[97 bulls]

barkley, a professional, also thought pippen was selfish. and that he would never win without jordan.

https://spacecityscoop.com/2020/05/20/charles-barkley-thoughts-scottie-pippen-houston-rockets/

nick anderson, another professional, thought 95 jordan was best in the world. meanwhile you think its ridiculous because mj only played 17 games. if pros are the alleged "gold standard" then explain this.

What was the context and when did Barkley say it? Wasnt his quite made after Pippen called him fat and lazy?

Nick Anderson may really belives that. That's his opinion.

My only point with the Scottie Pippen conversation is that soooooo many people had that stance.

[Sarcastic]

https://i0.wp.com/sneakerhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/scottie-jordan-10-comeback-mj.gif

[mehyaM24]

What was the context and when did Barkley say it? Wasnt his quite made after Pippen called him fat and lazy?

Nick Anderson may really belives that. That's his opinion.

it was barkley reflecting back on pippen. chuck explicitly says pippen could NEVER win without jordan. nick anderson said his piece about jordan too. obviously he believed it. so who am i to take seriously, you or the pro? :confusedshrug:


My only point with the Scottie Pippen conversation is that soooooo many people had that stance.

and many more felt differently.

[HoopsNY]

Of course it isn't preposterous, but to claim #2 is. I agree it's a conversation where entering him into the top 5 during that time is concerned.



Because players make claims all the time. Some are right, some are wrong, some are interpreted differently to others, and some are specific to a time.



I never denied this. My point is that:

- Pippen was a top 8 player between 1994-96.

- Pippen is in the discussion for top 5, though not likely over guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, MJ, and Ewing. Hence I would put him at #8.

- It is absurd to put him at #2 during that stretch.

- If you want to say he's definitively #5 then I would disagree. But saying he's #2, even within the discussion, is much more absurd than me and mehya saying he's #8.

97 bulls, is this fair?

[Smoke117]

We know he was. Dennis has an excellent bbiq.

[97 bulls]

97 bulls, is this fair?

I think its fair for the most part. I mean. Nobodies opinion is wrong. I'd say Pip was number 2 in 95 and top 5 from 94-96. I don't think Shaq was better at the time because he was too young. And he was really only a dunker. I wouldn't take Ewing over Pippen either. Jordan wasnt in the league in 94 and 95. So the only real ones are Olajuwan and Robinson.

[HoopsNY]

I think its fair for the most part. I mean. Nobodies opinion is wrong. I'd say Pip was number 2 in 95 and top 5 from 94-96. I don't think Shaq was better at the time because he was too young. And he was really only a dunker. I wouldn't take Ewing over Pippen either. Jordan wasnt in the league in 94 and 95. So the only real ones are Olajuwan and Robinson.

C'mon bro; Shaq may have been young, but he was definitely better than Pippen at least collectively for those three years.

He won 2 scoring titles* (I don't count Robinson's stat padding) in two of those three years. Dominated the Pacers in the ECF of '95, then went on to put up 28/13/6/3 on 60% against peak Hakeem. How many centers can ever claim they played that well against Hakeem, let alone in his peak?

Top 5 I disagree with, top 2 for one year I also disagree with, especially when Ewing led his team to a far better record putting up better numbers, after having beaten Pippen just the previous year.

But anyhow, if we agree it's fair, then that pretty much says it all. Don't tell the Bran stans though.

Btw I love how they all cheerlead but never have anything constructive to say :lol

[TheCorporation]

C'mon bro; Shaq may have been young, but he was definitely better than Pippen at least collectively for those three years.

He won 2 scoring titles* (I don't count Robinson's stat padding) in two of those three years. Dominated the Pacers in the ECF of '95, then went on to put up 28/13/6/3 on 60% against peak Hakeem. How many centers can ever claim they played that well against Hakeem, let alone in his peak?

Top 5 I disagree with, top 2 for one year I also disagree with, especially when Ewing led his team to a far better record putting up better numbers, after having beaten Pippen just the previous year.

But anyhow, if we agree it's fair, then that pretty much says it all. Don't tell the Bran stans though.

Btw I love how they all cheerlead but never have anything constructive to say :lol

Did you just literally try to rewrite history and give Shaq 2 scoring titles? :lol Obviously a 3ball alt, no one else is that insane. NEWSFLASH: Shaq had one. D-Rob dropped like 69 or whatever in the final game of the season to win the title over Shaq. Shaq has one.

[HoopsNY]

Did you just literally try to rewrite history and give Shaq 2 scoring titles? :lol Obviously a 3ball alt, no one else is that insane. NEWSFLASH: Shaq had one. D-Rob dropped like 69 or whatever in the final game of the season to win the title over Shaq. Shaq has one.

It's cute when 18 year olds try to talk to us like we don't know what we're talking about.

[TheCorporation]

It's cute when 18 year olds try to talk to us like we don't know what we're talking about.

You said Shaq had 2 scoring titles :lol

It's actually cute when 45 year olds try to talk to us like we don't know what we're talking about :lol

You lose.

[97 bulls]

C'mon bro; Shaq may have been young, but he was definitely better than Pippen at least collectively for those three years.

He won 2 scoring titles* (I don't count Robinson's stat padding) in two of those three years. Dominated the Pacers in the ECF of '95, then went on to put up 28/13/6/3 on 60% against peak Hakeem. How many centers can ever claim they played that well against Hakeem, let alone in his peak?

Top 5 I disagree with, top 2 for one year I also disagree with, especially when Ewing led his team to a far better record putting up better numbers, after having beaten Pippen just the previous year.

But anyhow, if we agree it's fair, then that pretty much says it all. Don't tell the Bran stans though.

Btw I love how they all cheerlead but never have anything constructive to say :lol

That's a big difference between me and you bro. I don't relegate a players worth to a playoff series. Shaq was dominant. But by the same token, so was Pippen. Just not in the same way Shaq was. Pippen would give you 20/8/6 while running the offense and anchor the defense, and still play great defense on his own assignment. And be effective.

Sometime i wish I could talk to people live because people can pick and choose what they wan to respond to. I'm gonna ask you again. Please answer these two questions.

1. Name another player at any time with Pippens skillset. Give you 20/8/6, and run the offense and anchor the defense?

2. Why do you think so many people felt the way they did about Scottie Pippen? In that people were saying he was top 5 to 2.

[ImKobe]

Bigs had more impact on the defensive end and Shaq was a much better scorer. This guy really thinks Pippen is in Shaq's league :facepalm .

[97 bulls]

Bigs had more impact on the defensive end and Shaq was a much better scorer. This guy really thinks Pippen is in Shaq's league :facepalm .
In 95, the Bulls had the number 2 ranked defense. Their starters were BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Toni Kukoc, and Luc Longley. Oh and Mr Pippen. Now tell me, who was the Bulls defensive anchor in 95?

[ImKobe]

Of course you leave out Harper and not give credit to any other player on the team for playing D :facepalm . Pete Meyers started 14 games. You really think Pippen was better than Shaq in '95?

[Carbine]

I don't think any perimeter defender ever anchored an elite defense. Not in that era. Certainly not in this era.

[97 bulls]

Of course you leave out Harper and not give credit to any other player on the team for playing D :facepalm . Pete Meyers started 14 games. You really think Pippen was better than Shaq in '95?

My bad. But Harper did only play 20 minutes a night.

[97 bulls]

I don't think any perimeter defender ever anchored an elite defense. Not in that era. Certainly not in this era.

Pippen did in 95. Him not winning DPOY was a travesty

[97 bulls]

https://youtu.be/7SGe-vp_l8U

This is an example of impact. This is the equivalent to a 50 pt game. 35pts 9rbds, 6assts, 5 steals, and you shut down Barkley?

[TheCorporation]

https://youtu.be/7SGe-vp_l8U

This is an example of impact. This is the equivalent to a 50 pt game. 35pts 9rbds, 6assts, 5 steals, and you shut down Barkley?

Class is in session for Dr. 97 Bulls

[HoopsNY]

You said Shaq had 2 scoring titles :lol

It's actually cute when 45 year olds try to talk to us like we don't know what we're talking about :lol

You lose.

"You lose" lol. How mature. Clearly you didn't pay attention to the asterisk that I put next to my comment. I'm obviously aware that on paper, Robinson won the scoring title.

Shaq had him narrowly beaten and was set to win the scoring title. The Spurs had already clinched the playoffs and their seed. They played the Clippers who were a horrible team and Robinson proceeded to play 44 min in a blowout, scoring 71. It was a stat padding event that even Westbrook can't touch.

So yea, without context, Shaq had 1 scoring title out of the 3 years. The reality is that he had 2/3 if not for Robinson's stat padding.

[HoopsNY]

That's a big difference between me and you bro. I don't relegate a players worth to a playoff series. Shaq was dominant. But by the same token, so was Pippen. Just not in the same way Shaq was. Pippen would give you 20/8/6 while running the offense and anchor the defense, and still play great defense on his own assignment. And be effective.

Sometime i wish I could talk to people live because people can pick and choose what they wan to respond to. I'm gonna ask you again. Please answer these two questions.

1. Name another player at any time with Pippens skillset. Give you 20/8/6, and run the offense and anchor the defense?

2. Why do you think so many people felt the way they did about Scottie Pippen? In that people were saying he was top 5 to 2.

Let's do it. I'm down to chop it up with guys like yourself, ImKobe, dankok, mehya, etc. I don't know how to PM people on this platform though. lol.

As for your question, then plenty of guys could do it, but none of the elite guys (Jordan, GP, Kidd, Hill, Penny) would since it was largely a big man's game.

I'm not relegating Shaq's play to just one series. You're dismissing Shaq's ability on the basis of him being young. That's like saying we should disregard young Bird, Magic, LeBron, or MJ, because they were in their 3rd season of play, only. It doesn't work that way. Many players can hit the ground running.

We saw what Tim Duncan did in his first and second seasons. Was 1999 Duncan < any version of Pippen? C'mon.

I'm not denying that a lot of guys felt that way about Pippen. The praise is warranted, but it doesn't mean the evaluation is accurate, especially when collectively, he wasn't top 2. The point is that he was top 8. You say top 5. I disagree.

I haven't found a definitive reason as to why 1995 Pippen > 1995 Ewing, but please do share.

[Gohan]

"You lose" lol. How mature. Clearly you didn't pay attention to the asterisk that I put next to my comment. I'm obviously aware that on paper, Robinson won the scoring title.

Shaq had him narrowly beaten and was set to win the scoring title. The Spurs had already clinched the playoffs and their seed. They played the Clippers who were a horrible team and Robinson proceeded to play 44 min in a blowout, scoring 71. It was a stat padding event that even Westbrook can't touch.

So yea, without context, Shaq had 1 scoring title out of the 3 years. The reality is that he had 2/3 if not for Robinson's stat padding.

I like this dude hit that nikka up and lay em down

[97 bulls]

Let's do it. I'm down to chop it up with guys like yourself, ImKobe, dankok, mehya, etc. I don't know how to PM people on this platform though. lol.

As for your question, then plenty of guys could do it, but none of the elite guys (Jordan, GP, Kidd, Hill, Penny) would since it was largely a big man's game.

I'm not relegating Shaq's play to just one series. You're dismissing Shaq's ability on the basis of him being young. That's like saying we should disregard young Bird, Magic, LeBron, or MJ, because they were in their 3rd season of play, only. It doesn't work that way. Many players can hit the ground running.

We saw what Tim Duncan did in his first and second seasons. Was 1999 Duncan < any version of Pippen? C'mon.

I'm not denying that a lot of guys felt that way about Pippen. The praise is warranted, but it doesn't mean the evaluation is accurate, especially when collectively, he wasn't top 2. The point is that he was top 8. You say top 5. I disagree.

I haven't found a definitive reason as to why 1995 Pippen > 1995 Ewing, but please do share.

I cant find where to send a personal message.

None of the guys you mentioned could anchor a defense. And be effective. Pippen was the defensive support from the wing position. Guys like Jordan and Payton were great man defenders, but not defensive anchors.

[ELITEpower23]

"You lose" lol. How mature. Clearly you didn't pay attention to the asterisk that I put next to my comment. I'm obviously aware that on paper, Robinson won the scoring title.

Shaq had him narrowly beaten and was set to win the scoring title. The Spurs had already clinched the playoffs and their seed. They played the Clippers who were a horrible team and Robinson proceeded to play 44 min in a blowout, scoring 71. It was a stat padding event that even Westbrook can't touch.

So yea, without context, Shaq had 1 scoring title out of the 3 years. The reality is that he had 2/3 if not for Robinson's stat padding.

So he had one :lol

Idiot

[3ba11]

.
TLDR: Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

The most common rings are those won with elite 1st options playing sidekick like Kobe, Curry or Kareem ("1b" sidekicks that have achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP in their career), while it's much less common to win rings with true 2nd options that never achieved FMVP or 25 ppg (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip Hamilton, Jason Terry, Horry) - MJ has 6 rings with these true 2nd options, which is why he's goat.



* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown below:


1988 1st Round

Pippen'....... 10.6 ppg... 47.1 fg... 49.4 ts
L Nance...... 16.8 ppg... 53.1 fg... 58.4 ts


1988 2nd Round

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 45.8 fg... 48.5 ts
Dantley...... 18.6 ppg... 50.0 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 1st Round

Pippen....... 15.0 ppg... 39.7 fg... 51.0 ts
L Nance..... 19.4 ppg... 55.1 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 2nd Round

Pippen....... 14.8 ppg... 58.1 fg... 64.5 ts
Newman.... 15.5 ppg... 45.8 fg... 56.0 ts


1989 ECF

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 40.4 fg... 45.3 ts
Johnson..... 13.7 ppg... 53.3 fg... 59.6 ts


1990 1st Round

Pippen....... 22.5 ppg... 57.1 fg... 63.4 ts
Pierce........ 22.3 ppg... 46.7 fg... 60.4 ts


1990 2nd Round

Pippen........ 20.8 ppg... 53.3 fg... 58.1 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 62.6 ts


1990 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 42.6 fg... 52.0 ts
Isiah'......... 17.6 ppg... 39.0 fg... 51.0 ts


1991 1st Round

Pippen....... 19.7 ppg... 50.0 fg... 55.2 ts
Ewing........ 16.7 ppg... 40.0 fg... 47.3 ts


1991 2nd Round

Pippen........ 23.4 ppg... 57.1 fg... 60.9 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 43.1 fg... 64.4 ts


1991 ECF

Pippen......... 22.5 ppg... 47.5 fg... 56.3 ts
Aguirre........ 16.8 ppg... 45.3 fg... 55.4 ts


1991 Finals

Pippen'...... 20.6 ppg... 45.3 fg... 52.7 ts
Magic........ 18.3 ppg... 43.1 fg... 61.2 ts


1992 1st Round

Pippen....... 24.0 ppg... 55.3 fg... 63.0 ts
Ewing........ 19.0 ppg... 37.5 fg... 42.5 ts


1992 2nd Round

Pippen'....... 16.0 ppg... 40.4 fg... 49.3 ts
X-Man........ 18.6 ppg... 49.6 fg... 52.7 ts


1992 ECF

Pippen....... 19.8 ppg... 47.3 fg... 53.6 ts
Nance........ 17.8 ppg... 46.7 fg... 51.9 ts


1992 Finals

Pippen'....... 20.8 ppg... 48.4 fg... 56.0 ts
Porter......... 16.2 ppg... 47.1 fg... 57.1 ts


1993 1st Round

Pippen...... 15.3 ppg... 42.2 fg... 45.7 ts
Willis........ 16.7 ppg... 46.7 fg... 48.9 ts


1993 2nd Round

Pippen......... 18.3 ppg... 47.5 fg... 51.0 ts
Daughtery.... 16.0 ppg... 56.1 fg... 56.1 ts


1993 ECF

Pippen'...... 22.5 ppg... 51.0 fg... 57.3 ts
Starks....... 15.2 ppg... 45.3 fg... 54.6 ts


1993 Finals

Pippen...... 21.2 ppg... 43.9 fg... 45.9 ts
Majerle..... 17.2 ppg... 44.3 fg... 58.7 ts


1994 1st Round

Pippen...... 25.3 ppg... 49.3 fg... 53.7 ts
Mills......... 17.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 59.5 ts


1994 2nd Round

Pippen...... 21.7 ppg... 40.5 fg... 51.3 ts
Ewing....... 22.9 ppg... 53.0 fg... 58.1 ts


1995 1st Round

Pippen........ 16.0 ppg... 51.2 fg... 60.2 ts
Johnson...... 20.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 54.6 ts


1995 2nd Round

Pippen'...... 19.0 ppg... 40.9 fg... 52.2 ts
Penny........ 18.5 ppg... 44.0 fg... 54.7 ts


1996 1st Round

Pippen..,,..... 19.7 ppg... 55.6 fg... 64.0 ts
Hardaway'.... 17.7 ppg... 46.5 fg... 57.5 ts


1996 2nd Round

Pippen..,,,,,.... 15.6 ppg... 33.0 fg... 41.6 ts
Oakley........... 13.4 ppg... 50.0 fg... 57.7 ts


1996 ECF

Pippen'...... 18.5 ppg... 45.3 fg... 50.8 ts
Penny........ 25.5 ppg... 46.9 fg... 55.2 ts


1996 Finals

Pippen...... 15.7 ppg... 34.0 fg... 42.9 ts
Payton...... 18.0 ppg... 44.4 fg... 53.2 ts


1997 1st Round

Pippen....... 16.7 ppg... 38.9 fg... 49.8 ts
Howard...... 18.7 ppg... 45.5 fg... 53.9 ts


1997 2nd Round

Pippen...... 22.2 ppg... 42.9 fg... 52.4 ts
Smith....... 17.6 ppg... 31.9 fg... 49.1 ts


1997 ECF

Pippen......... 16.8 ppg... 41.7 fg... 52.6 ts
Mourning..... 15.6 ppg... 46.8 fg... 56.2 ts


1997 Finals

Pippen....... 20.0 ppg... 42.1 fg... 54.1 ts
Stockton.... 15.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 61.3 ts


1998 1st Round

Pippen....... 18.0 ppg... 43.6 fg... 53.1 ts
Kitttles...... 16.3 ppg... 42.5 fg... 54.6 ts


1998 2nd Round

Pippen....... 17.8 ppg... 44.3 fg... 53.5 ts
Mason........ 12.6 ppg... 51.0 fg... 55.3 ts


1998 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 39.2 fg... 46.3 ts
Smits........ 16.3 ppg... 55.4 fg... 62.8 ts


1998 Finals

Pippen.......... 15.7 ppg... 41.0 fg... 50.2 ts
Hornacek...... 10.7 ppg... 41.1 fg... 50.1 ts


* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown above

[3ba11]

.
People love romanticizing 30 years after the fact - here's the facts:



1993 - Pippen didn't get any DPOY votes (Jordan was 2nd) and he had the worst impact stats in the playoffs for a winning sidekick ever (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP)

1994 - 3 historic chokes against Ewing in 2nd Round ("sit out" game, "dumb foul" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495117-Let-s-review-Pippen-s-3rd-biggest-choke-of-career-the-foul-on-Hubert-Davis-(gif)) game, Game 7)

1995 - 19 on 40% in 2nd Round to cause loss, and he had a borderline lottery team until MJ returned - he'd destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, so MJ returned to cover it up

[Axe]

.
People love romanticizing 30 years after the fact - here's the facts:



1993 - Pippen didn't get any DPOY votes (Jordan was 2nd) and he had the worst impact stats in the playoffs for a winning sidekick ever (BPM, WS/48, PER, VORP)

1994 - 3 historic chokes against Ewing in 2nd Round ("sit out" game, "dumb foul" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495117-Let-s-review-Pippen-s-3rd-biggest-choke-of-career-the-foul-on-Hubert-Davis-(gif)) game, Game 7)

1995 - 19 on 40% in 2nd Round to cause loss, and he had a borderline lottery team until MJ returned - he'd destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, so MJ returned to cover it up
In 1991 finals, he averaged more ppg numbers than your hero kobe did in 2000.

[3ba11]

In 1991 finals, he averaged more ppg numbers than your hero kobe did in 2000.


You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005

Otoh, not many guys can match kobe's peak, which blows Pippen's 91' peak out of the water... 20 ppg and no clutch?.... how does that compare to kobe

[SaintzFury13]

You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005

Was Hughes 3rd in MVP voting in 2005?

[3ba11]

Was Hughes 3rd in MVP voting in 2005?


Hughes didn't play for the 94' Bulls and 3-peat, otherwise he would've been 3rd in 94' too - anyone that can get 22/5 would've won in the triangle with the 3-peat system - it's a low bar and Hughes' production and 2-way performance was on the same caliber as Pippen's (22/6/5 and 1st team defense)... and Hughes made the 2nd Round just like Pippen..

btw, lots of guys placed #3 in MVP voting like Blake Griffin or Marc Gasol - it's based on the surprise factor not the best player, and the 94' bulls had goat surprise factor.. No one even knew Pippen was 3rd because he was never mentioned as a candidate and no one thought he was - only when you look it up 30 years later do you see "oh look, pippen happened to accumulate 3rd place votes" (because he was never mentioned at the time as a candidate or thought of as one, so he wasn't a candidate).

Accept facts - Pippen's prime caliber was a low bar, so any bum like Robert Horry can reach it (18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals), or bums like JR Smith (18/8 on 70% TS in 15' ECF), or the aforementioned Hughes.. it's just a low bar - Jeff Green reached it a few times too... everyone did

It's sad because the top 75 is coming up, which is reserved for history's towering performers like 11' Dirk or 21' Giannis... How the hell does Pippen's low-producing, defensive role player caliber belong?

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZDM6h0/pipSavedJordan.png

It's over now 3ball. Rest easy.

[Axe]

You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005

Otoh, not many guys can match kobe's peak, which blows Pippen's 91' peak out of the water... 20 ppg and no clutch?.... how does that compare to kobe
Kobe averaged only almost 16ppg in the 2000 finals. Don't deflect from this piece of truth.

[3ba11]

Kobe averaged only almost 16ppg in the 2000 finals. Don't deflect from this piece of truth.


Pippen did that in 2 Finals

Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for 6 Finals - you wouldn't think someone could go 6-0 against Finals teams with that kind of crap help

[Axe]

Pippen did that in 2 Finals

Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for 6 Finals - you wouldn't think someone could go 6-0 against Finals teams with that kind of crap help
Baloney

[TheCorporation]

Pippen did that in 2 Finals

Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% for 6 Finals - you wouldn't think someone could go 6-0 against Finals teams with that kind of crap help

What if you were going up against two all time worst #2 options in Finals history

10.7 Hornacek and 14.0 ppg Stockton

[3ba11]

10.7 Hornacek and 14.0 ppg Stockton


those guys ragdolled shaq/kobe and duncan/popovich but lost to mj

and stockton clearly outplayed pippen in the 97' Finals, while scoring like jordan in the clutch - pippen had a worst-ever 4 clutch points in the 97' Finals (less than ostertag), while stockton had nearly as many as mj

[Kobe_Bryant]

I dunno I'm gonna have to go with

93 - MJ
94 - Hakeem
95 - Hakeem

but Pip was definitely top 5 in 94 and top 10 in 93 and 95

[Axe]

those guys ragdolled shaq/kobe and duncan/popovich but lost to mj

and stockton clearly outplayed pippen in the 97' Finals, while scoring like jordan in the clutch - pippen had a worst-ever 4 clutch points in the 97' Finals (less than ostertag), while stockton had nearly as many as mj
Pip didn't have to score for his teammates to feel his impact. Poor thing you still can't realize this.

[bizil]

A couple of things here... People OFTEN confuse the best all around player WITH BEING the best player. At times, both things can be true. For example, in the case of MJ and Bron. When it comes to Kareem at his best., he was LEGIT the best player in the league and best all around center. By all around, I'm talking who combines scoring, passing, defense,and rebounding the best for their position. Now many think the best player is either KD or Giannis. While Giannis is the better ALL AROUND PLAYER than KD, KD is such a great and skilled scorer that it SUPERCEDES Giannis' all around ability. PLUS KD is a very good all around player to boot.

Once MJ left for baseball, Pip INDEED was the best ALL AROUND perimeter player in the world. He combined scoring, passing, defense,and rebounding BETTER than any other perimeter player at that time. But Pip WASN'T CLOSE to being the best player on the planet. That was Hakeem. And for that matter Barkley, Shaq,Drexler,Mailman,Robinson,and Ewing were all better players than Pip in this time period. So ONCE AGAIN,the best ALL AROUND PLAYER isn't ALWAYS the best player. Pip (when MJ left for baseball) is a great example of the difference!

[97 bulls]

You're comparing peak vs trough

not exactly fair

if we compare peak vs peak, we see that about 500 guys can match pippen's peak of 22/5 with weak efficiency and 2nd round loss - Hughes did it in 2005

Otoh, not many guys can match kobe's peak, which blows Pippen's 91' peak out of the water... 20 ppg and no clutch?.... how does that compare to kobe

You say that, but you compare rookie Pippen to prime players all the time. Like prime Adrian Dantley, and prime Larry Nance.

[3ba11]

You say that, but you compare rookie Pippen to prime players all the time. Like prime Adrian Dantley, and prime Larry Nance.


People blame Jordan for losing from 88-90' so I have to bring up the real culprit - Pippen - who was vastly inferior to everyone during those years... the higher production rate of veterans like Mo Williams or Larry Hughes would've been more than enough to win in those years.

[97 bulls]

People blame Jordan for losing from 88-90' so I have to bring up the real culprit - Pippen - who was vastly inferior to everyone during those years... the higher production rate of veterans like Mo Williams or Larry Hughes would've been more than enough to win in those years.
Bro. It doesn't matter why you did it. You did it. Then proceeded to say you shouldn't compare rookies and 2ns and 3rd year players to players in their primes.

[ELITEpower23]

Anyone have an answer for OP?

[Round Mound]

A couple of things here... People OFTEN confuse the best all around player WITH BEING the best player. At times, both things can be true. For example, in the case of MJ and Bron. When it comes to Kareem at his best., he was LEGIT the best player in the league and best all around center. By all around, I'm talking who combines scoring, passing, defense,and rebounding the best for their position. Now many think the best player is either KD or Giannis. While Giannis is the better ALL AROUND PLAYER than KD, KD is such a great and skilled scorer that it SUPERCEDES Giannis' all around ability. PLUS KD is a very good all around player to boot.

Once MJ left for baseball, Pip INDEED was the best ALL AROUND perimeter player in the world. He combined scoring, passing, defense,and rebounding BETTER than any other perimeter player at that time. But Pip WASN'T CLOSE to being the best player on the planet. That was Hakeem. And for that matter Barkley, Shaq,Drexler,Mailman,Robinson,and Ewing were all better players than Pip in this time period. So ONCE AGAIN,the best ALL AROUND PLAYER isn't ALWAYS the best player. Pip (when MJ left for baseball) is a great example of the difference!

This