After Jordan, who was the BEST perimeter player in the 90s? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

999Guy

05-23-2020, 10:13 AM

I think Jordan's case for "greatest" is up there with anybodies, and stronger than most. But he is fortunate that Larry Bird and Magic were basically done in the 90s. Drexler only gave him some pushback in the early 90s, for that year or two. Jordan had no other perimeter player near or at his level though. He battled epic centers instead.
Eh, Ewing and baby Shaq, and Shaq beat him one of the two times. Ewing pushed him to the brink.

He is very fortunate to have never seen Hakeem. If Hakeem had a Stockton, Penny, or KJ like Malone, Barkley and Shaq did, the decade is his.

D-Rob was unfortunate too, though not as good as Hakeem. I would never want to see that guy surrounded by a strong team in the playoffs though.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 10:18 AM

Eh, Ewing and Shaq, and Shaq beat him one of the two times. Ewing pushed him to the brink.

He is very fortunate to have never seen Hakeem. If Hakeem had a Stockton, Penny, or KJ like Malone, Barkley and Shaq did, the decade is his.

D-Rob too.

Those are centers though. I agree that he faced ATG bigs. Jordan didn't have that rival or two at his position, and from the perimeter. Hakeem did have Drexler by the way. Arguably a few years too late, but Drexler was still a very good player.

SATAN

05-23-2020, 10:20 AM

Let's all make lists. Why not? It's so interesting being controlled by SAS.

999Guy

05-23-2020, 10:24 AM

Those are centers though. I agree that he faced ATG bigs. Jordan didn't have that rival or two at his position, and from the perimeter. Hakeem did have Drexler by the way. Arguably a few years too late, but Drexler was still a very good player.

Yeah but the point is Jordan never saw the best of his era.

It’s much like KG’s prime being put away in the worst market in sports while Duncan and Shaq ran up ring counts.

Really David Robinson and Hakeem are in the top 3 of the 90’s with Jordan. And they never had strong teams in their primes. SA was like LeBron’s Cavs and Hakeem had probably the dumbest, most toxic environment ever. Crackhead chuckers, cheap ownership, and a coach that wanted him to be a pick and roller.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 10:26 AM

Yeah but the point is Jordan never saw the best of his era.

It’s much like KG’s prime being put away in the worst market in sports while Duncan and Shaq ran up ring counts.

Really David Robinson and Hakeem are in the top 3 of the 90’s with Jordan. And they never had strong teams in their primes. SA was like LeBron’s Cavs and Hakeem had probably the dumbest, most toxic environment ever. Crackhead chuckers, cheap ownership, and a coach that wanted him to be a pick and roller.

That's not the point of this thread at all.

You're bringing up bigs and centers when I am not discussing that. Read the thread title next time.

999Guy

05-23-2020, 10:35 AM

That's not the point of this thread at all.

You're bringing up bigs and centers when I am not discussing that. Read the thread title next time.

It was Drexler, stupid. This ain’t some amazing thread idea with much depth. I know the intention of this thread. It stinks. :lol

Maybe Pippen.

This could be a 7 page thread debating Miller vs one of those guys.

Your thread idea stinks because wing players aren’t these terrifying forces historically. Bigs are. And he got to avoid two amazing ones.

But personally I think peak Reggie and Pippen is in the same ballpark for the most part. I think. Gun to head I’m going Pippen though.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 10:39 AM

It was Drexler, stupid. This ain’t some amazing thread idea with much depth. I know the intention of this thread. It stinks. :lol

Maybe Pippen.

This could be a 7 page thread debating Miller vs one of those guys.

Your thread idea stinks because wing players aren’t these terrifying forced historically. Bigs are. And he got to avoid two amazing ones.

Who said it was "amazing"? And what "intention" are you talking about?

I'm simply asking a question. If you don't like the topic vacate the thread then, moron :oldlol:

Manny98

05-23-2020, 10:46 AM

92 NBA finals

Pippen 21/8/8 off 48% with elite defense

Drexler 25/6/5 off 40% with average defense

Pippen outplayed peak Drexler on the biggest stage

insidious301

05-23-2020, 10:58 AM

92 NBA finals

Pippen 21/8/8 off 48% with elite defense

Drexler 25/6/5 off 40% with average defense

Pippen outplayed peak Drexler on the biggest stage

Having Jordan definitely helped Pippen's efficiency. Taking defense into account, those numbers do look close at face value.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 10:59 AM

Pippen followed by Drexler. Drexler is the only one who has an argument over Pippen so let's compare their resumes for the decade.

Pippen vs. Drexler in the 90's

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Drexler 4
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Drexler 1
Top 5 in MVP: Pippen, 2 Drexler 1
Top 10 in MVP: Pippen 5, Drexler 3
All-star: Pippen 7, Drexler 7
All-D: Pippen 9, Drexler 0 (8 first teams for Pippen)

The Dream Team selected Pippen 4th; Drexler was the 11th and final NBA pick.

Statistically their lines were this while in their primes in the 90's:

Pippen: 20/7/6 on 51.4% eFG%
Drexler: 22/7/6 on 49.5% eFG%

The difference obviously is in their defense.

I think having Jordan helped Pippen's offense a lot here.

In theory but remember Pippen and most Bulls played more efficiently without Jordan in 94' than they did with him in 93' (of the starters, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright became more efficient while Armstrong less). Scorers' impact on efficiency isn't the same as losing a facilitator like Nash, LeBron, or Magic.

Similarly, Drexler as a #2 option in 95' put up numbers similar to what he did in 92' as a #1 option. He went 22/10/7 on 45% in 95'. So his efficiency was better in 95' than in 92'--but his highest efficiency finals was 90' as a #1 (54%).

People make too much of the "option" stuff. Pippen as a "#2" option commanded more usage than many "#1" options. In the case of these two players, the difference prime vs. prime* is 26.6% for Drexler and 24.6% for Pippen. Pippen was up to 27.1% in 94' as a #1 option and 26.3% in 95' as a #1 for 80% of the season. So an uptick but of about 2%.

*1991-1998 for Pippen, 1988-1995 for Drexler. If you want to count 86', 87' for Drexler his usage goes to 26.0%. If you add 90' for Pippen, 24.2%.

3ball

05-23-2020, 11:15 AM

. Jordan had no other perimeter player near or at his level though. He battled epic centers instead.

He beat Magic in 1991 as the underdog - Magic was runner-up for MVP that year and is considered equal or greater than today's players.

And he played like "god" against Larry with a cast equivalent to the 04' Cavs (minus the all-star center)

In the 90's, he beat Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Barkley

What more do you want? Playing like "god" or beating Magic, Larry, Shaq and Drexler is a tougher path than beating today's lesser players

insidious301

05-23-2020, 11:20 AM

Pippen followed by Drexler. Drexler is the only one who has an argument over Pippen so let's compare their resumes for the decade.

Pippen vs. Drexler in the 90's

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Drexler 4
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Drexler 1
Top 5 in MVP: Pippen, 2 Drexler 1
Top 10 in MVP: Pippen 5, Drexler 3
All-star: Pippen 7, Drexler 7
All-D: Pippen 9, Drexler 0 (8 first teams for Pippen)

The Dream Team selected Pippen 4th; Drexler was the 11th and final NBA pick.

In theory but remember Pippen and most Bulls played more efficiently without Jordan in 94' than they did with him in 93' (of the starters, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright became more efficient while Armstrong less). Scorers' impact on efficiency isn't the same as losing a facilitator like Nash, LeBron, or Magic.

Similarly, Drexler as a #2 option in 95' put up numbers similar to what he did in 92' as a #1 option. He went 22/10/7 on 45% in 95'. So his efficiency was better in 95' than in 92'--but his highest efficiency finals was 90' as a #1 (54%).

People make too much of the "option" stuff. Pippen as a "#2" option commanded more usage than many "#1" options.

Great post. Are you of the mindset All-Teams and MVP's get influenced by team strength? I say that to ask, if you stripped down those accolades, would you still think Pippen is better? And who would you rather build your team around? Don't know if you saw my post, but i clarified it by editing offense with efficiency. Of course that'll go up playing alongside good teammates, which is what I was saying. Pippen or Drexler seem to be the favorites here though. Great players, no argument there. Think about the perimeter players in the 80s and the Kobe/Lebron era though. Their swingmen clearly had more talent.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 11:20 AM

It isn't relevant to a 90's comparison but for full context here is Drexler's line if you include 88' and 89':

Pippen (91'-98'): 20/7/6 on 51.4% eFG%
Pippen (90'-98'): 20/7/6 on 51.3% eFG%
Drexler (90'-95'): 22/7/6 on 49.5% eFG%
Drexler (88-95'): 23/7/6 on 49.9% eFG%

No material difference by adding those two 80's years for Drexler.

How about for the whole 90's (Drexler retired after 98')?

Pippen (90'-99'): 19/7/6 on 51.2% eFG%
Drexler (90-98'): 21/6/6 on 49.4% eFG%

Statistically, no matter how you slice it, they are ringers for each other. The real difference between the two is one was a dominant defender and the other wasn't. That is what separates them all-time and for the 90's.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 11:21 AM

He beat Magic in 1991 as the underdog - Magic was runner-up for MVP that year and is considered equal or greater than today's players.

And he played like "god" against Larry with a cast equivalent to the 04' Cavs (minus the all-star center)

In the 90's, he beat Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Barkley

What more do you want? Playing like "god" or beating Magic, Larry, Shaq and Drexler is a tougher path than beating today's lesser players

We're talking about perimeter players. Why do people on this board struggle with staying on topic? :oldlol:

tpols

05-23-2020, 11:27 AM

Reggie Miller or john stockton.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 11:28 AM

Reggie Miller or john stockton.

Better than Drexler and Pippen? How so in your opinion?

3ball

05-23-2020, 11:31 AM

We're talking about perimeter players. Why do people on this board struggle with staying on topic? :oldlol:

I mentioned Magic and bird, so why pretend like I only mentioned bigs?

Playing like "god" or beating Magic, Larry, Shaq and Drexler is a tougher path than beating today's lesser players.

Magic/Bird/Drexler/Shaq > KD/Kawhi/Harden/Duncan.... And 14' Kawhi was a 12 ppg baby so he doesn't qualify

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 11:33 AM

Great post. Are you of the mindset All-Teams and MVP's get influenced by team strength

:cheers:

MVP's for sure, all-star teams for marginal all-stars, but not all-NBA. Plenty of people make all-NBA on bad teams, average teams.

I say that to ask, if you stripped down those accolades, would you still think Pippen is better?

I think Drexler was in a more favorable situation for accolades. You get more recognition as the #1 on a team than a #2, no matter how great the team. Moreover, Drexler himself was on a team that had a 4-5 year run as a perennial contender itself (which included 2 finals, 3 WCF trips).

Pippen is a great test case for the theory because he had 1 full season and 80% of a second season in his prime as the #1. Those happen to be 2 of the 3 years he was first team all-NBA. He also recorded his highest MVP finish (the one time he was a legitimate candidate) and his third highest.

Of course these aren't science experiments so there will be flaws: those seasons coincided with Pippen's peak and he was all-NBA 1st team again in 96' and top 5 in MVP voting (5th, as opposed to 3rd in 94'). So it is hard to disentangle but I think it is pretty clear you would rather be in Drexler's position than Pippen's for accolades.

Drexler himself provides some evidence of this as well. His final all-NBA team and his final year receiving MVP votes (14th) both were 95'. That was the last season he spent as a #1 (traded at the break). Did what he did on the court change?

Drexler from 1993-1995: 20/6/5 on 48.1% eFG%
Drexler from 1996-1998: 19/6/6 on 48.9% eFG%

So basically the same player--but not the same accolades as he became a #2 to Hakeem and then Barkley further muddled the waters for 97' and 98'.

So back to your original question, I think Pippen would have gotten more accolades if he spent his entire prime as the #1 on a team. With Drexler the accolades fell off significantly after he became a #2 (he was a regular all-star in 96', 97').

And who would you rather build your team around?

Pippen. Pippen is easier to build around because he gives you more things. The one advantage Drexler has is scoring, but as their lines show it isn't this massive gap as people think. Yeah, Drexler had two years scoring 27 but his teams played at a 104 pace; for Pippen's two #1 years his team's pace was 92. In other words, Drexler's 27.2 peak translated to Chicago's 94'/95' pace would equate to 24.1 (Pippen was at 22.0 in 94' and 21.9 in 95' before MJ returned). Pippen's vastly superior defense more than offsets the loss of 2 PPG.

Who would you take?

Better than Drexler and Pippen? How so in your opinion?

Those guys aren't serious candidates. Neither was ever a MVP caliber player, for example.

tpols

05-23-2020, 11:35 AM

Better than Drexler and Pippen? How so in your opinion?

John stockton is a GOAT passer, and floor general. Hyper efficient on both sides of the court with super IQ. All time assists and steals leader in NBA history.

Reggie a GOAT decoy, competitor (legendary trash talker), leader and at the time shooter. Also super efficient and consistent playoff performer.

Larry Bird said he's never seen anybody hit more big shots.

Soundwave

05-23-2020, 11:38 AM

The later half of the 90s is skewed badly because Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway both got injured, well GHill not until 2000 or so, but Penny was already declining by '98. But those two should have been the standard bearers for the NBA for a while until guys like Kobe and Vince Carter hit their peak.

Dominque Wilkins does not get enough respect. Dude was still putting up big time numbers even after tearing his ACL.

3ball

05-23-2020, 11:39 AM

I mentioned Magic and bird, so why pretend like I only mentioned bigs?

Playing like "god" or beating Magic, Larry, Shaq and Drexler is a tougher path than beating today's lesser players.

Magic/Bird/Drexler/Shaq > KD/Kawhi/Harden/Duncan.... And 14' Kawhi was a 12 ppg baby so he doesn't qualify

Insidious?

And you have to go year by year and see who was best, otherwise accolades inflate one guy over another looking by decade

Round Mound

05-23-2020, 11:43 AM

Jordan is the best perimeter player ever...

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 11:43 AM

Just for kicks, here are the accolades for Miller, Stockton compared to the two superstars:

Pippen/Drexler/Stockton/Miller in the 90's

All-NBA: Stockton 8, Pippen 7, Drexler 4, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Stockton 2, Drexler 1, Miller 0
Top 5 in MVP: Pippen 2, Drexler 1, Miller/Stockton 0
Top 10 in MVP: Pippen 5, Drexler/Stockton 3, Miller 0
All-star: Stockton 8, Pippen/Drexler 7, Miller 4
All-D: Pippen 9, Stockton 4, Drexler/Miller 0 (Pippen with 8 all-D 1st teams)

Drexler and Stockton both have a trio of top 10 MVP finishes but they are not the same quality. Drexler's were 2nd, 6th, 10th; Stockton's 8th, 9th, 10th. For the record, Pippen's were 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th.

Miller was on a perennial contender and was never a MVP candidate. That tells you all you need to know: he was a star but not a superstar and people understood he wasn't "carrying" the team so he didn't get MVP credit. Mitch Richmond was a better player than Miller in the 90's at SG and nobody even talks about him today because he played on bad teams and doesn't work for TNT.

Give me Drexler over Stockton. Stockton had better longevity but he did not have the peak of Drexler or Pippen.

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 11:47 AM

John stockton is a GOAT passer, and floor general. Hyper efficient on both sides of the court with super IQ. All time assists and steals leader in NBA history.

Reggie a GOAT decoy, competitor (legendary trash talker), leader and at the time shooter. Also super efficient and consistent playoff performer.

Larry Bird said he's never seen anybody hit more big shots.

At no point in the 90s would a single person outside his home market call Reggie the best wing after Jordan. You can find articles from Reggies prime with local writers saying Detlef(the 6th man) was the teams best player.

Coaches were picking dudes like Mookie Blaylock.

Stockton was more respected than Reggie.

Pippen, Drexler, Grant Hill, Mitch and others would all have been taken over Reggie by every team in the nba. The Pacers didn’t thrive till Larry Brown got there and told Reggie he wasn’t a superstar type who could win trying to take over games and made them more of an ensemble team. If I posted what Larry Brown said he had to sit Reggie down and tell him ish would be calling me a hater like I said it......

Soundwave

05-23-2020, 11:50 AM

It's really a big shame what happened to Penny Hardaway.

Even Pippen and Jordan had serious problems guarding him.

I don't think there's ever been a player quite like Penny since. Tracy McGrady is probably similar in some respects, but McGrady had no where near the vision/passing ability.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 11:53 AM

At no point in the 90s would a single person outside his home market call Reggie the best wing after Jordan. You can find articles from Reggies prime with local writers saying Detlef(the 6th man) was the teams best player.

Coaches were picking dudes like Mookie Blaylock.

Stockton was more respected than Reggie.

Wasn't Pippen pretty much the consensus best perimeter player when MJ was retired and #2 behind MJ when MJ wasn't for most of the 90's? That is what I recall. I don't remember anyone ever putting Reggie or Stockton in that conversation. Drexler was the guy from 1990-1992, then Pippen from 1993-1996, then Hill (all behind MJ of course, outside of 94' and 95'). Drexler would probably win a poll in 93' on reputation but it was clear by then Pippen had surpassed him. By 94' there was no debate. Pippen was the only perimeter player in the top 3, top 5 player discussion. The other guys were all centers or PF's (Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Barkley).

If this was posted in 2000 or 2005 the consensus would be Pippen. I believe Elliot Kalb in his 2003 book notes what I did about Pippen being the #1 perimeter player (minus MJ) or #2 (when MJ played) for most of his prime.

tpols

05-23-2020, 11:53 AM

Soundwave

05-23-2020, 12:02 PM

Wasn't Pippen pretty much the consensus best perimeter player when MJ was retired and #2 behind MJ when MJ wasn't for most of the 90's? That is what I recall. I don't remember anyone ever putting Reggie or Stockton in that conversation. Drexler was the guy from 1990-1992, then Pippen from 1993-1996, then Hill (all behind MJ of course, outside of 94' and 95'). Drexler would probably win a poll in 93' on reputation but it was clear by then Pippen had surpassed him. By 94' there was no debate. Pippen was the only perimeter player in the top 3, top 5 player discussion. The other guys were all centers or PF's (Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Barkley).

If this was posted in 2000 or 2005 the consensus would be Pippen. I believe Elliot Kalb in his 2003 book notes what I did about Pippen being the #1 perimeter player (minus MJ) or #2 (when MJ played) for most of his prime.

By '95 Penny Hardaway was likely considered the best perimeter player until Jordan re-established himself back to form.

Penny by that point was very heavily marketed and you couldn't walk down the freaking street without seeing some kid with a "Orlando Magic 1" jersey on.

Soundwave

05-23-2020, 12:12 PM

I would say it goes

90-91: Drexler
91-92: Drexler
92-93: Dominique
93-94: Pippen
94-95: Penny Hardaway
95-96: Penny Hardaway
96-97: Grant Hill
97-98: Grant Hill
98-99: Begins the Kobe Bryant era

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 12:12 PM

tpols

05-23-2020, 12:19 PM

well they obviously made some pretty awful decisions then since reggie's performances just blow starks away, especially in the playoffs.

hindsight is 20/20 though.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 12:33 PM

well they obviously made some pretty awful decisions then since reggie's performances just blow starks away, especially in the playoffs.

hindsight is 20/20 though.
Aren’t you always telling us we have to take players and coaches opinions seriously? Now when that goes against what you want to be the case, we have to listen to YOU instead of Reggie’s own coach? :lol

Pick a lane.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 12:37 PM

Of course these aren't science experiments so there will be flaws: those seasons coincided with Pippen's peak and he was all-NBA 1st team again in 96' and top 5 in MVP voting (5th, as opposed to 3rd in 94'). So it is hard to disentangle but I think it is pretty clear you would rather be in Drexler's position than Pippen's for accolades.

Drexler himself provides some evidence of this as well. His final all-NBA team and his final year receiving MVP votes (14th) both were 95'. That was the last season he spent as a #1 (traded at the break). Did what he did on the court change?

Drexler from 1993-1995: 20/6/5 on 48.1% eFG%
Drexler from 1996-1998: 19/6/6 on 48.9% eFG%

So basically the same player--but not the same accolades as he became a #2 to Hakeem and then Barkley further muddled the waters for 97' and 98'.

So back to your original question, I think Pippen would have gotten more accolades if he spent his entire prime as the #1 on a team. With Drexler the accolades fell off significantly after he became a #2 (he was a regular all-star in 96', 97').

I had to condense your post. No idea why there is a character limit. All valid points though. One thing you omitted, or maybe just didn't take into account, was Drexler's age. From 96-98 he was 33-35. I believe his prime lasted about 8 years, from 87-95. Keep in mind he was drafted in 1983. So while his numbers declined as a second option, like Pippen's did most of his career, in his role, age played a significant part.

Pippen. Pippen is easier to build around because he gives you more things. The one advantage Drexler has is scoring, but as their lines show it isn't this massive gap as people think. Yeah, Drexler had two years scoring 27 but his teams played at a 104 pace; for Pippen's two #1 years his team's pace was 92. In other words, Drexler's 27.2 peak translated to Chicago's 94'/95' pace would equate to 24.1 (Pippen was at 22.0 in 94' and 21.9 in 95' before MJ returned). Pippen's vastly superior defense more than offsets the loss of 2 PPG.

Who would you take?

Drexler. They were both great players to me and carried similar weight. Depending on what your team needed. It could be biased, but I saw what Drexler did as a number one, go-to franchise guy. For nearly a decade. Two finals appearances, and nearly 5 including WCF series. That was in a deep conference mind you, unlike the poverty one we saw in the 80s. Drexler was better offensively than Pippen too (three playoff runs where he averaged 24+ on respectable efficiency). I get that Pippen's true value was on defense, on help defense especially, but I think Drexler's scoring was definitely more versatile. He would be more efficient in most offenses that I can think of, so he would fit like a glove on most teams he would join. Drexler's playmaking was underrated too and on par with Pippen's.

With all of that being said, its not something I am 100% on. You make a great argument for Pippen actually.

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 12:46 PM

well they obviously made some pretty awful decisions then since reggie's performances just blow starks away, especially in the playoffs.

hindsight is 20/20 though.

One major difference between fans and coaches?

Coaches watch basketball. Fans watch the basketball.

Fans rank people based on points. You can score 30 and it accounts for like 1 or 2 minutes of 40 minutes of court time. Everything that happens from tip-off till the final is basketball. Fans think a shot chart is performance and it simply isn’t.

Coaches are always gonna be more into Mookie, Starks, and Mckey types than fans. Coaches watch film. Fans watch highlights.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 12:47 PM

John stockton is a GOAT passer, and floor general. Hyper efficient on both sides of the court with super IQ. All time assists and steals leader in NBA history.

Reggie a GOAT decoy, competitor (legendary trash talker), leader and at the time shooter. Also super efficient and consistent playoff performer.

Larry Bird said he's never seen anybody hit more big shots.

Gary Payton said John Stockton was his toughest matchup. That he had to pickup Stockton up 94 feet, at all times, and could never rest. Stockton was either throwing perfect entries to Malone, running through/around picks, creating space for efficient jumpshots, or getting to the line. Payton felt demoralized.

I remember Kobe saying something similar about Reggie Miller. Although Kobe faced an older, less mobile version of Reggie.

All of that is to say, while I don't agree with you, there are players who thought these two were unstoppable.

tpols

05-23-2020, 12:56 PM

Gary Payton said John Stockton was his toughest matchup. That he had to pickup Stockton up 94 feet, at all times, and could never rest. Stockton was either throwing perfect entries to Malone, running through/around picks, creating space for efficient jumpshots, or getting to the line. Payton felt demoralized.

I remember Kobe saying something similar about Reggie Miller. Although Kobe faced an older, less mobile version of Reggie.

All of that is to say, while I don't agree with you, there are players who thought these two were unstoppable.

yup... kobe said reggie was the hardest because he never stopped moving, never stood around. just had to find a small crease and was GOAT shooter at the time.

Has to be the greatest off ball scorer ever ahead of the rip hamilton, ray allen, klay types.

3ball

05-23-2020, 12:56 PM

.
Majerle and Starks were considered better perimeter defenders than Pippen in 1993

...............
https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2020/EPbVMR.gif

Outplayed by other wings in 93' Playoffs

93' Nique 1st Round.... 30 on 43%
93' Willis 1st Round..... 17 on 57%
93' Pippen 1st Round... 15 on 42%

93' Majerle Finals... 17 on 58.9 ts.. 17.0 gmsc
93' Pippen Finals.... 20 on 45.9 ts.. 15.9 gmsc

Sidekick help while trying to 3-peat - 14' Wade vs 93' Pippen

Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm

TLDR: Pippen wasn't even considered a top 3 perimeter defender in 1993, and obviously his offense wasn't anywhere near the best, so we know he wasn't the best in 93'

That's why you have to go year-by-year... Pippen was rarely the best in any 1 year, but his accolades inflate his decade value

RRR3

05-23-2020, 12:57 PM

Blaze, you taking peak McKey over Reggie?

RRR3

05-23-2020, 12:58 PM

Did 3Ball just call Kevin Willis a wing?

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 01:02 PM

I could also ask Larry Brown, George Karl, and Phil Jackson all of whom said at the time Reggie was his teams second or third best player. You ask nba coaches in like 94 to pick Mckey or Miller Reggie probably won’t win that. The only reason that sounds odd today is you not having been there to see lots of basketball lifers not be that impressed. 28 years old dead prime and the coaches take Mookie and John Starks. He ends up behind 6 guards In the East alone but magically 25 years later he’s I suppose the best guard in the league with Jordan retired.....

Look at the players SI compared him to in this 93' article:

The East backcourt is perhaps the most interesting group in either conference. After Jordan and Price, both locks in my book, one has to consider Thomas, the Reggies (Lewis of the Celtics and Miller of the Pacers) and Jeff Hornacek and Hersey Hawkins, both of the 76ers

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/02/15/the-nba

So old Isiah, Hornacek, Hawkins, and Reggie Lewis. Yet some people today talk about him as better than Pippen, Drexler?

One thing you omitted, or maybe just didn't take into account, was Drexler's age. From 96-98 he was 33-35. I believe his prime lasted about 8 years, from 87-95. Keep in mind he was drafted in 1983. So while his numbers declined as a second option

His number didn't decline in Houston. They declined compared to his peak but not to what he was doing in his last years in Portland:

Drexler from 1993-1995: 20/6/5 on 48.1% eFG%
Drexler from 1996-1998: 19/6/6 on 48.9% eFG%

His performance didn't decline--the accolades did as a #2. I think it is more evidence that you get more accolades as a #1, even though he was doing the same things in Houston. Same with Pippen. His 97' and 92' numbers are similar to his 94'-96' numbers but because of MJ he didn't get the same recognition. He did in 96' but I suspect that was the glow from the previous two seasons still being there. By 97' Pippen went under MJ's shadow again.

With all of that being said, its not something I am 100% on. You make a great argument for Pippen actually.

Thanks--and you made a good case for Drexler. I think they are close and the only players who have legit cases for best perimeter player after MJ in the 90's. Stockton usually falls near Pippen on all-time lists and ahead of Drexler but that is due to his longevity. If you are picking a franchise player you need Pippen or Drexler and their superstar peaks to build around. You aren't picking Stockton.

Mitch Richmond was understood to be better than Miller in the 90's at the same position but Miller has gotten overrated in retirement.

999Guy

05-23-2020, 01:04 PM

Who said it was "amazing"? And what "intention" are you talking about?

I'm simply asking a question. If you don't like the topic vacate the thread then, moron :oldlol:

:lol you’re right.

999Guy

05-23-2020, 01:11 PM

One major difference between fans and coaches?

Coaches watch basketball. Fans watch the basketball.

Fans rank people based on points. You can score 30 and it accounts for like 1 or 2 minutes of 40 minutes of court time. Everything that happens from tip-off till the final is basketball. Fans think a shot chart is performance and it simply isn’t.

Coaches are always gonna be more into Mookie, Starks, and Mckey types than fans. Coaches watch film. Fans watch highlights.
Coaches are only better than casual fans at evaluating the game. I wouldn’t say they are all good at all.

Tyrone Lue is really good at X’s and O’s, really keen on the mentality of competition and approaching the game. Is innovative and likeable in general as a person.

He said JR Smith was the Cavs most important defender in the middle of the 2016 season. That was ****ing DUMB. Don’t care who’s mouth it comes out of, baseless and dumb.

And I wouldn’t say coaches are better at player analysis than internet die hards.

Cause they really don’t do this break a guys career down in every aspect thing we do. They teach putting the proper hand in the passing lane and knowing when/where to set a screen.

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 01:15 PM

Blaze, you taking peak McKey over Reggie?

It’s along the lines of asking peak Draymond or Klay....except 25 years ago they wouldn’t make full use of what guys like Klay could do. And Klay is a great defender. So it’s not exactly that but it’s along those lines. I’d take Reggie for today’s game no doubt. For 1993? I’ll just give you what the coaches said....

Bulls coach Phil Jackson voted for McKey for the All-Star team, saying: "He's their best player. He's the reason they are where they are."

And Indiana's defense starts with Derrick McKey.

"He's as good a defender as there is in the league," coach Larry Brown said. "He's a great all-around player. I don't know where we'd be without him."

"He's the best. He defends every night. He does whatever we need him to do to win," Brown said.

While Brown and teammates call McKey the most important player on the team, McKey was characteristically modest about his play following the win over Charlotte.

Derrick McKey has settled in with the Pacers and become the catalyst through which all offensive plays are run. "People used to tell me Derrick didn't come to play every night," said [Larry Brown]. "He may not have come to play offensively, but he's come to play defensively in every single game I've seen. He's the best all-around player I've ever coached."

3ball

05-23-2020, 01:16 PM

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 01:20 PM

3ball

05-23-2020, 01:34 PM

Those quotes are from 1994 and 1995. The Hornets game they were raving about Mckey had 10/5.....but the other team only had 68. Is Reggies 16 points that game more valuable than the guy who spearheads a d that allows 68 points? Kinda depends on how you look at it doesn’t it? Derrick was a big part of running the offense and was a main reason the d was so great.

Coaches and fans just aren’t gonna see eye to eye on a thing like that. Fans aren’t wired to appreciate 10/5 of boring defense and passing more than 20 points.

Its complete bullshit that 1 perimeter defender is holding a team to 68 points

Stats aren't the end-all be all

But when 1 guy is getting an all-time level ws/48 and the other guy has 0.091... gtfo

Defenses gameplanned for Reggie.. every game... Nobody game-plans for the ball rotator

RRR3

05-23-2020, 01:34 PM

Did 3Ball just call Kevin Willis a wing?
3ball?

RRR3

05-23-2020, 01:40 PM

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 01:41 PM

Those quotes are from 1994 and 1995.

So they very years Miller made his name against the Knicks. Coaches saying McKey>Miller. SI putting him on par with Hornacek, Hawkins the previous season.

Here is an article on SI's picks for the all-NBA 1st and 2nd teams for the 92' season (Pippen, Drexler mentioned):

There is even one school of thought that says although Jordan has all but clinched his sixth straight scoring title, Scottie Pippen, heading for career highs in average points (21.1 at end of week), rebounds (7.7) and assists (7.0), has been more valuable than Jordan.

Imagine that.

One thing is for sure—this years MVP almost has to come from the NBA's runaway best team. And it says here that even though Pippen has been outstanding, the MVB, Most Valuable Bull, is still Jordan. If the sportswriters-voters agree, the MVP Award will be Jordan's third.

The retirement of Magic, season-ending injuries to Dominique Wilkins and Worthy, the on-again, off-again status of Larry Bird and the erratic play of Charles Barkley paved the way for some new blood in this category. Here are our choices, presented with only occasional explanation.

•First team: Karl Malone and Pippen, forward; Robinson, center; Jordan and the Warriors' Jim Hardaway, guard. (The Trail Blazers' Clyde Drexler could have been the other backcourtman, but the purist vision of basketball look hold and dictated that a point man be paired with Jordan.)

•Second team: the Warriors' Chris Mullin and Rodman, forward; Ewing, center; Drexler and the Cavaliers' Mark Price, guard. (Quietly, Cleveland has acquired the third-best record in the NBA; Price's contributions deserve to be recognized. And so does Rodman's astounding 18.7-per-game rebounding average.)

I don't see Reggie anywhere on here. I bolded the Barkley piece since ISH thinks Barkley was the same Barkley every year of his career. Here you have SI saying Pippen>Barkley in 92'.

hateraid

05-23-2020, 01:41 PM

If you lives in that era it was Miller, then Drexler with a sprinkle of Dumars. Back then they really pushed the Jordan vs Dumars scenario

insidious301

05-23-2020, 01:42 PM

Krause preferred Kemp over Pippen, while Drexler, Penny, Hill and Jordan were also better than Pippen

So Pippen isn't a top 5 perimeter player in the 90's, and he might not be top 8 (10?) when you consider mostly peak and therefore add 90-93 Dominique and Bird, along with 98' and 99' Kobe, 98' Juwan Howard, and numerous others

Jordan isn't part of the equation. Its the perimeter players after him.

Since peak is relatively short, give me TWO players in their primes next in line. Perimeter players.

3ball

05-23-2020, 01:42 PM

And btw, the 94' pacers hired larry brown as coach, probably the goat defensive coach

3ball?

Willis was a 2nd option that out played Pip

Nique was the SF that outplayed him... Covering all the bases

Btw, how did pip allow Nique average 30 on him?.. past his prime? Are you guys overrating Pip's defense? There seems to be a lot of examples like this where he gets outplayed or he lets someone get theirs (doesn't shut them down) - literally every series

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 01:44 PM

SI on the 94' MVP race:

As the regular season draws to a close, the races for the individual awards are so close that it might be fairest to chop up the trophies and spread them around. For instance, Most Valuable Player honors could be divvied up as follows: the M to the Rockets' Hakeem Olajuwon, the V to the Spurs' David Robinson and the P to the Bulls' Scottie Pippen. There hasn't been a season in recent memory with so many photo finishes, but, well, the time has come to name our winners:

MVP: Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets
Notwithstanding the unequivocal pronouncement on the cover of a certain magazine (SI, March 7) that Robinson is the Man, no one has come closer to single-handedly carrying a team than Olajuwon, who at week's end was third in the league in scoring (27.3 points per game) and tied for third in rebounding (12.0). Robinson, the scoring leader at 29.2, has been brilliant, but he has had rebounding maniac Dennis Rodman to relieve him of some of his responsibilities on the boards and even to guard opposing centers from time to time. Pippen has played like an MVP, but he has had lapses in which he hasn't comported himself like one, such as the night he reacted to booing by Chicago fans by pointing out that teammate Toni Kukoc hadn't received similarly harsh treatment despite having missed all of his field goal attempts.

So their beef with Pippen is off the court PR stuff, not on the court. https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/04/25/the-nba

Some negativity on Drexler here in 94' from coaches:

Most overrated player: Again, a wide split, with Trail Blazer guard Clyde Drexler and Net forward Derrick Coleman leading the way with three votes each. "It's a long list," says one Western coach about overrated players. "Where do I start?" Coaches picked the 31-year-old Drexler because they think age and injuries have eroded his game. As for Coleman, "I think he's a very good player, so I'm kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth." says a Western Conference coach. "But something seems to be missing there. If he's really a unique talent, he should be able to carry that team a little bit further."

Coaches on Pippen and defense (same article):

Best one-on-one defender: Bull forward Scottie Pippen (six votes) edged Spur forward Dennis Rodman (four). Olajuwon, Blaylock and Sonic guard Gary Payton (two votes each) were the only other players chosen by more than one coach. "Rodman used to be the guy. but he's slipped—he doesn't like to go too far from the basket anymore," says a Western coach, I think Pippen can disrupt more than Rodman." Biggest surprise: a vote for Knick backup forward Anthony Mason. "Every time I see him put his mind to covering someone, he locks them up," says a Western coach. "He has strength, quickness and a mean streak that won't let you go."

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 01:45 PM

More from the coaches' poll.

A Stockton appearance:

Best passer: Jazz point guard John Stockton (15 votes) was the most convincing winner in any category. "Not even close," says a Western coach. "After him there's a hole a mile wide, Every time you watch him. he leaves you scratching your head and saying, 'Can you believe that pass?' Magic threw great passes, but he had nights with 10 turnovers with the stuff he did. When you get Stockton to turn the ball over, it's almost a badge of honor."

Pippen again:

Player you would pay to see: Barkley, Olajuwon and Pippen tied with four votes each. O'Neal, with two votes, was the only other player with more than one

Finally, it's worth noting that Pippen was the only player to receive at least one vote in five categories—last shot, starting a franchise, best defender, best passer and player worth paying to see.

Michael who?

https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/02/28/the-nba

RRR3

05-23-2020, 01:46 PM

3ball

05-23-2020, 01:48 PM

So would you say Draymond is a good comp for McKey?

McKey was good but a role player in Indiana and smaller than draymond's role

Pacers became great defensively because they hired the goat defensive coach - larry brown - that's why the TEAM became capable of holding teams to 68 points - only TEAMS do that and it was common for larry Brown's teams... Kblaze is simply lying for crediting a lone perimeter defender with it.. taking advantage of Roundball's naivety about the game

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 01:51 PM

You literally called Kevin Willis a wing. Stop dodging this. You’re clueless about basketball :roll:

:roll:

As posted above, here is what coaches had to say:

Best one-on-one defender: Bull forward Scottie Pippen (six votes) edged Spur forward Dennis Rodman (four). Olajuwon, Blaylock and Sonic guard Gary Payton (two votes each) were the only other players chosen by more than one coach. "Rodman used to be the guy. but he's slipped—he doesn't like to go too far from the basket anymore," says a Western coach, I think Pippen can disrupt more than Rodman." Biggest surprise: a vote for Knick backup forward Anthony Mason. "Every time I see him put his mind to covering someone, he locks them up," says a Western coach. "He has strength, quickness and a mean streak that won't let you go."

I don't see Majerle on here. :lol

DoctorP

05-23-2020, 01:55 PM

Grant Hill

3ball

05-23-2020, 01:56 PM

:roll:

I don't see Majerle on here.

Dpoy doesn't just measure individual defense

it measures defensive impact - Majerle led the Suns to the #9 defense with no "help", while Pippen only had the #7 defense with mj and grant... So Pippen's team defense was poor, and he let Dominique go off on him..

^^^ that means no dpoy consideration

DoctorP

05-23-2020, 01:56 PM

tpols

05-23-2020, 01:58 PM

If you lives in that era it was Miller, then Drexler with a sprinkle of Dumars. Back then they really pushed the Jordan vs Dumars scenario

i think the reason people hated on reggie miller because his trash talk rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

and he was an obvious villainous character to the Bulls and knicks... what he did to poor john starks in the playoffs shouldve been a crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYGOY5WEDk

Thats the same year scottie pippen literally quit on his team in the playoffs.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 01:59 PM

Here is my year by year list since others have done it and it is an interesting exercise:

1990: Thomas
1991: Drexler
1992: Drexler
1993: Pippen
1994: Pippen
1995: Pippen
1996: Pippen
1997: Hill
1998: Hill
1999: Hill

Wilkins is one of the guys 3ball and his minions always bring up. SI clearly considered Malone, Pippen the best forwards of 92'. The injured Wilkins wasn't in the mix but a healthy Wilkins wouldn't have been anyway. Also keep in mind the Dream Team picked Pippen, Mullin--not Wilkins (although Pippen actually played PG on the team).

Wilkins was compared to Pippen in 93' (Pippen's worst prime year BTW, due to an ankle ailment). They were close then:

East Starters—Larry Johnson of the Hornets and Dominique Wilkins of the Hawks at forward, Shaquille O'Neal of the Magic in the pivot, Michael Jordan of the Bulls and Mark Price of the Cavaliers at guard. I'm going with Wilkins over the Bulls' Scottie Pippen—after missing the final 40 games of last season with a torn Achilles tendon and 11 games this season with a hand injury, 'Nique has been his old slammin' self—and with Price over the Pistons' Isiah Thomas.

Again, no Miller in the conversation.

From 94' on Pippen clearly was better than Wilkins. His own team traded Wilkins for Danny Manning while being tied with Chicago for 1st place in the East in 94' at the trade deadline.

Nique is a shiny object for these PPG lovers because he was the second best scorer of his era but he did nothing else on the court.

3ball

05-23-2020, 01:59 PM

Yeah that aint bad

Indeed

tpols

05-23-2020, 02:03 PM

insidious301

05-23-2020, 02:03 PM

I would say it goes

90-91: Drexler
91-92: Drexler
92-93: Dominique
93-94: Pippen
94-95: Penny Hardaway
95-96: Penny Hardaway
96-97: Grant Hill
97-98: Grant Hill
98-99: Begins the Kobe Bryant era

Didn't see your post. Pippen could definitely be argued some of those years. 96 for example, when he and Jordan were battling for MVP together. But this is a decent list, good stuff. Taking another look, I believe Drexler has the best argument overall. He and Pippen because of defense.

3ball

05-23-2020, 02:06 PM

.
Pippen in 1993:

[x] no dpoy consideration

[x] 3 perimeter players finished ahead in dpoy voting

[x] very weak stats, especially in playoffs (14' Wade easily out-produced him)

[x] outplayed by multiple SF's or 2nd options in playoffs

^^^^ not the 2nd best perimeter player... :hammerhead:

RRR3

05-23-2020, 02:08 PM

insidious301

05-23-2020, 02:10 PM

Getting past that idiot on the first page, I like the direction this took. Some good arguments from all sides. I probably should've made a poll, tallying ISH's official vote. Oh well.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 02:20 PM

Didn't see your post. Pippen could definitely be argued some of those years. 96 for example, when he and Jordan were battling for MVP together. But this is a decent list, good stuff. Taking another look, I believe Drexler has the best argument overall. He and Pippen because of defense.

Penny and Hill are both larger in death than they were in life, so to speak. They are basketball's versions of JFK in historical terms. The black marks are overlooked and the "what if's" are answered affirmatively with the benefit of the doubt as they are frozen forever in youth. Hill for example, never got out the first round in his prime. No other superstar would get a pass for that but he does because injuries and nostalgia.

In 95' and 96' Pippen easily would win those votes. Unfortunately, the NBA does not do best player votes but all-NBA can give you some insight by comparing across positions:

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

That Pippen was that far ahead of prime Malone tells you all you need to know (and obviously Barkley, who was second team).

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

Both Pippen and Penny were second at forward and guard--but Pippen racked up 451 votes and Penny only 394, the lowest of the first team members. Pippen had tougher competition, with Barkley his main threat on the 2nd team while Penny was competing against Payton, Richmond.

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Here Pippen and Penny were on par in terms of votes. Pippen was the top forward and Penny #2 among guards, but the reason for that is obvious.

The takeaway for me here is Pippen again outpolled prime Malone. The guys Penny beat were Payton, Stockton--a lot easier to beat than a prime Malone and prime Hill. So Pippen's 91 was a lot tougher to achieve than Penny's 90.

Also, where is Reggie on these? His name never comes up in these discussions of elite players at the time.

insidious301

05-23-2020, 02:25 PM

HoopsNY

05-23-2020, 02:26 PM

Dpoy doesn't just measure individual defense

it measures defensive impact - Majerle led the Suns to the #9 defense with no "help", while Pippen only had the #7 defense with mj and grant... So Pippen's team defense was poor, and he let Dominique go off on him..

^^^ that means no dpoy consideration

Are you smoking crack?

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 02:29 PM

McKey was good but a role player in Indiana and smaller than draymond's role

Pacers became great defensively because they hired the goat defensive coach - larry brown - that's why the TEAM became capable of holding teams to 68 points - only TEAMS do that and it was common for larry Brown's teams... Kblaze is simply lying for crediting a lone perimeter defender with it.. taking advantage of Roundball's naivety about the game

Don’t talk to me. Talk to Larry Brown. Talk to Phil. Talk to Karl.

I said Derrick scored 10 and had Brown raving about being their best player. I did not say anyone ever held a team to anything on hisnown(though there is a story on Russell holding a team to like 29 in college and the witnesses say he did it personally). He was the key to the defense that did it....and was also who a lot of offense ran through.

Hes one of several pacers that players, coaches, and writers flatly said were the best player on teams Reggie was on in his prime. What you feel about that with nerd stats a quarter century later obviously was not factored in.

Stephonit

05-23-2020, 02:31 PM

Miller NOT getting enough due recognition? That's strange usually he gets too much. What I remember is having the impression that Miller got more press than Olajuwon back in the day before the Rockets won. The media was trying to build Reggie up but he didn't really perform to the expectations. His late runs though towards the end of his career reestablished respectability.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 02:32 PM

You are killing it here, Roundball_Rock. More great posts! I'm leaning more toward Pippen for the 90s overall, and Drexler for prime/peak. Never thought Grant Hill or Penny were good defenders (not at that time), which again, to me separates them.

:cheers:

Yeah, the decade cut-off hurts Drexler because it excludes two of his prime seasons. If we are comparing prime versus prime it gets a lot closer but the timing hurts Drexler. Meanwhile, the decade cut-off is perfect for Pippen as his prime overlaps almost completely with the decade. Most people will say his prime was 1991-1998 but some may argue 90' as well. Either way, he is covering basically the entire decade outside of 00'.

We think of decades but it is a bit arbitrary. Kareem is another guy hurt but this because his ring and MVP in 80' doesn't count so the talking point often is "1 ring in the 70's", which is true but his team literally won in the first year of the 80's. :lol

Miller NOT getting enough due recognition? That's strange usually he gets too much. What I remember is having the impression that Miller got more press than Olajuwon back in the day before the Rockets won

He is an interesting figure and had great timing against New York but can anyone find an article from then discussing Miller as a superstar or among the elite players? I went through several on SI's archives and he comes up as a bench all-star option. He never made all-NBA 1st or 2nd team and even with the 3rd team he made it only 3x.

If Sacramento offered Mitch Richmond for Miller then, Indiana would make that trade in a heartbeat. Richmond, who is completely forgotten today.

Soundwave

05-23-2020, 02:36 PM

The explosion of many SG/SF players after Jordan is simply also the Jordan effect.

Basketball pre-1985 was mainly focused on the center being the franchise player. Bird/Magic were shifting that, but even they were both big guys (6'9 and 6'10) who could play PF, even C in a pinch.

After Jordan the entire sport of basketball completely shifted and every kid wanted to be a wing or if they were a big they wanted to play like a wing. No one was interested in getting their ass into the post. They wanted to do all the fancy stuff that got you a big money Nike deal.

The idea of building your team around a wing player who's under 6'9/6'10 was an absurd concept not that long ago believe it or not.

I remember randomly watching an episode of Family Feud ages ago where the question was "what's the ideal height for a basketball player?" and 6'6 was the no.1 answer ... how quickly times change because at one time it was 7 foot or bust.

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 02:40 PM

look at the efficiencies of his teammates in the playoffs... these guys all have ORTG's in the high 90s, while reggie is posting 120.

:biggums:

that's WITH teams gameplanning to stop him from scoring.

this dude was simply a ridiculous shot maker the likes of very few that have ever existed.

his playoff defense was scrappy too.

And yet....it takes people who weren’t there....to run some equations....to see it. Why do you think that is?

Why do you think people who played and coached for decades watched him do it from feet away and didn’t think it was that special....when your blind numbers 25 years later says it was?

When his coach is trying to defend him after one of his many many many many offensive no shows and says:

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

What do your numbers understand that he doesn’t?

His coach tells you...lay off....he’s not some super scorer who is gonna bring it every night. Stop expecting so much. That’s said in defense of him.

Why?

Because Reggie would disappear all the time. You would forget he was there for 30 minutes as his team struggled to score. The narrative is that he would just turn it on and win them all these games late....except he won exactly
one big playoff series in 19 years. People remember 6 things from ESPN and read some numbers on an irrelevant 25 points in 47 minutes while being destroyed in a series and make up whole new narratives over the shooting percentages on his largely ineffective totals. The people watching it closest were not nearly as impressed as your calculators are now.

Reggie Millers career was usually 125 screens for 16-25 points and going home when games started to matter and players who could actually bring the ball across half court under a press or just post up and get a shot started to exert more influence.

Reggie was nice. And he would look a lot nicer today. But there’s a reason people weren’t blown away. Those advanced numbers did not translate to a particularly dominant individual. He has moments to point to like every other hall of famer.....but generally speaking he wasn’t gonna matter when it was time to do shit worth remembering.

We remember 8 in 9. But it was of no real consequence. Like everything else you remember him doing.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 02:42 PM

FWIW, here is how Backpicks rates them season by season.

Pippen:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Pippen-seasonal-valuations.png

Drexler:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Drexler-seasonal-valuations.png

Miller:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Miller-seasonal-valuations.png

Stockton:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Stockton-seasonal-valuations.png

Here are their closing comments on each.

Pippen:

He’s entrenched in the group of players from 22-26, with a peak strong enough to edge out Stockton, but one that lags behind the players ahead of him. After his back surgery, he churned out two more All-Star level seasons, giving him 11 or 12 by my count. That’s just enough longevity to earn the nod over a similar-peak challenger, Moses Malone, for the No. 23 spot on the list.

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

Drexler:

Overall, his mixed signals imply inconsistency or some fit issues, and I peg his peak somewhere in between the big-value metrics and the aforementioned low points. Some of his defensive shortcomings bring his value on that end close to neutral while his offense never crested too high either — notice he’s closer to the second notch on the scaled Big 3 numbers above, which is medium-level scoring and efficiency for an offensive centerpiece that lags behind other non-megastars like Ray Allen (see above) and Manu Ginobili. Like Allen, Drexler logged a dozen All-Star level seasons in my book, enough for this spot.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/08/goat-36-40/#Drexler

Stockton:

His plus-minus hints at some latent value — his execution of Sloan’s system? passing? screening? — and I credit him for that in my valuations by casting him as an all-league performer. Defensively, I think he was worthy of accolades and made an impact, but there’s only so much a small guard who isn’t a shut-down defender can do to move the needle. A small (but generous) bump in his peak valuation would move him up two spots, and I can’t see him dropping much lower based on his longevity. In total, he produced 10 All-NBA years in my book and another four All-Star seasons, but Stockton’s lack of a meaningful peak prevents him from a higher placement on this list.

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/25/backpicks-goat-25-john-stockton/

Miller:

All told, I grade Miller with nine to 11 low-level All-NBA years — he should have been a mainstay on that team — and 13 All-Star seasons. If I’m slightly less positive about his defense, he’d still be pushing Bob Pettit for 30th in this exercise, despite a peak that’s outside the top-50. Even when knocking his valuations down a peg to “only” All-Star levels, his sheer longevity still results in a top-40 career. Given the evidence in his favor, I have a hard time scoring his seasons much lower. Either way, it’s safe to say that Miller authored one of the most underrated careers in NBA history.

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/18/backpicks-goat-29-reggie-miller/

Monta Ellis MVP

05-23-2020, 02:43 PM

It’s important for players to be able to create their own shot off the dribble. That is why I was always a fan of Mo Williams on the Cavaliers. He was great at creating his own shots.

3ball

05-23-2020, 02:45 PM

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

So Pippen was only elite from 94-96', most of which MJ missed... you're always making my point lol

and Pippen got outplayed during that time by Larry Johnson, Kemp and Penny

And you can't use accolades to say Pippen > Hill because Hill would have more accolades if he was winning rings next to Jordan..

Btw, the 1 full season that MJ played with 1st team Pip (96'), Pip averaged 15 on 34% in the Finals and was outplayed by Kemp, Payton, and Schrempf

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs - there's no way Pippen makes up for this with defense because he was letting everyone outplay him during this run

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 02:49 PM

"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

What do your numbers understand that he doesn’t?

His coach tells you...lay off....he’s not some super scorer who is gonna bring it every night. Stop expecting so much. That’s said in defense of him.

Yeah his game was very limited. He was a shooter and that was basically it. He was great at that but people talk about him now like he was a T Mac level scorer or something. A lot of his scoring relied on screens to get open.

We had a Pippen vs. Miller discussion in another thread days ago. The entire basis for the Miller argument was how "great" a scorer Miller was and how "mediocre" a scorer Pippen was. Never mind Miller scored 21 PPG in his prime as a #1 and Pippen 20 PPG as a #2 (outside of 1 4/5 years) or that Pippen had a post game, could beat his man, was great in transition, a strong finisher, etc. In other words, that Pippen had several avenues to score. They plugged Miller's three point and FT shooting into a calculator and concluded he was this dominant scorer.

There is a reason Smits, Schrempf, and Rose all commanded so much usage during Miller's career. He was never given a legitimate "#1" workload because he lacked the skills for that. His usage was comparable to #2 or even #3 SG's in their primes (e.g., Hornacek and Hawkins).

Monta Ellis MVP

05-23-2020, 02:51 PM

Yeah his game was very limited. He was a shooter and that was basically it. He was great at that but people talk about him now like he was a T Mac level scorer or something.

We had a Pippen vs. Miller discussion in another thread days ago. The entire basis for the Miller argument was how "great" a scorer Miller was and how "mediocre" a scorer Pippen was. Never mind Miller scored 21 PPG in his prime as a #1 and Pippen 20 PPG as a #2 (outside of 1 4/5 years) or that Pippen had a post game, could beat his man, was a much better player in transition, etc. In other words, that Pippen had several avenues to score. They plugged Miller's three point and FT shooting into a calculator and concluded he was this dominant scorer.

There is a reason Smits, Schrempf, and Rose all commanded so much usage during Miller's career. He was never given a legitimate "#1" workload because he lacked the skills for that. His usage was comparable to #2 or even #3 SG's in their primes (e.g., Hornacek and Hawkins).

What is your problem with True Shooting Percentage? It is more accurate than Field Goal Percentage. Field Goal Percentage ignores 3 points and Free Throws.

Jordan96

05-23-2020, 02:52 PM

The 90s was very weak talent wise

r0drig0lac

05-23-2020, 02:55 PM

Drexler for sure

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 02:56 PM

At no point in the 90s would a single person outside his home market call Reggie the best wing after Jordan. You can find articles from Reggies prime with local writers saying Detlef(the 6th man) was the teams best player.

Coaches were picking dudes like Mookie Blaylock.

Stockton was more respected than Reggie.

Pippen, Drexler, Grant Hill, Mitch and others would all have been taken over Reggie by every team in the nba. The Pacers didn’t thrive till Larry Brown got there and told Reggie he wasn’t a superstar type who could win trying to take over games and made them more of an ensemble team. If I posted what Larry Brown said he had to sit Reggie down and tell him ish would be calling me a hater like I said it......

You're right, tho it didn't really reflect. Reggie put up a PPG average over 21PPG and about 1.5 pts per attempt over his 8 year prime, and I think about 23.5PPG in the playoffs over a period longer than his prime.

But Reggie isn't the answer, you're right.

In the 90s (after Magic) the best wings he faced would have to be peak Penny and Hill and Stockton and Drexler right there, Richmond, KJ, Hardaway, Dumars, Isiah, Mullin and Reggie (not sure on order). Mitch was better in a vacuum and as a match-up, but can't say you're right about Reggie's overall greatness. The Pacers were built on his running around, no matter how Brown evaluated him 1v1.

Pippen would be in the first tier.

Every one of them in HOF besides the Hardaways: the former bigot, and probably the best player of all of them, Penny.

Edit: forgot Dominique.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 03:02 PM

What is your problem with True Shooting Percentage? It is more accurate than Field Goal Percentage. Field Goal Percentage ignores 3 points and Free Throws.

What was his coaches' problem? Didn't Larry Brown understand the importance of TS %? Didn't he know Miller=prime Barkley in efficiency? If so, why didn't he funnel Barkley-type usage to Miller?

Miller was a great FT and 3 point shooter. We get it. That doesn't negate what Brown, opposing coaches, and others at the time understood about his limitations.

3ball

05-23-2020, 03:17 PM

.
Other perimeter players played better than Pippen every year against the same comp

Pippen vs 88' Pistons.. 10 on 46%
Worthy vs 88' Pistons.. 22 on 49% (fmvp)

Pippen vs 89' Pistons... 10 on 40%
Worthy vs 89' Pistons... 26 on 48%

Pippen vs 90' Pistons... 16 on 41%
Drexler vs 90' Pistons... 26 on 54%
Kersey vs 90' Pistons... 19 on 48%
K Duck vs 90' Pistons... 16 on 47%

Pip vs 91' Lakers... 21/9/7.. on 50%
KJ. vs 90' Lakers... 22/7/11 on 48% (wcf)

Pip vs 92 Blazers... 20/9/7.. on 50%
KJ. vs 92 Blazers... 22/2/11 on 54% (wcf)

Pippen vs 93' Suns... 21 on 45.9 ts
Pierce. vs 93' Suns... 20 on 66.2 ts
Kemp...vs 93' Suns... 20 on 62.2 ts

Pippen vs 94' Knicks... 22 on 41%
Miller'.. vs 94' Knicks... 25 on 44%

Pippen vs 95' Magic... 19 on 40%
Drexler vs 95' Magic... 22 on 45%

Pippen vs 99' Kobe... 18 on 33%
Miller.. vs 00' Kobe.... 24 on 40%

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 03:19 PM

I feel like I’m in a weird position because when asked about 90s Reggie I always end up having to explain that he wasn’t all that great relative to reputation.....but....

When I look at his game and what the game became?

I also have to say he might drop 70 in a game played in 2020.

I acknowledge the skills and his value to some situations. In one conversation I might be against him but in another I’d have to explain why he might(might) be getting MVP votes today.

Ill just chalk it up to trying to be fair and take every discussion for what it is and not involve my feeling on another issue. I’ll leave it at this....

If you think the question of Reggie vs peak Hersey Hawkins or Mookie Blaylock is blasphemous it’s simply because you weren’t there at the time. People who know a lot more than you or I made the decision....and it wasn’t always Reggie. Your numbers didn’t mean shit.

However.....Reggies off the ball movement, shooting, in between game and ability to draw fouls would make him nearly unguardable now. He would actually be what number cruncher think while ignoring that how efficiently you score 22 doesn’t matter when the score ends up 78-84 because your team needed you to be able create more shots.

Reggie today would be who people looking at irrelevant numbers think he was in the 90s. Unstoppable.

In the 90s? He was quite often stopped. The guy guarding him might need an IV after the game but if I’m tired and you got 19 points with virtually no other contribution I didn’t just get my ass kicked. Kevin Johnson will give you more work than Reggie he will just come right at you.

Less tiring to defend....but he’s closer to unstoppable.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 03:21 PM

It’s along the lines of asking peak Draymond or Klay....except 25 years ago they wouldn’t make full use of what guys like Klay could do. And Klay is a great defender. So it’s not exactly that but it’s along those lines. I’d take Reggie for today’s game no doubt. For 1993? I’ll just give you what the coaches said....

Bulls coach Phil Jackson voted for McKey for the All-Star team, saying: "He's their best player. He's the reason they are where they are."

And Indiana's defense starts with Derrick McKey.

"He's as good a defender as there is in the league," coach Larry Brown said. "He's a great all-around player. I don't know where we'd be without him."

"He's the best. He defends every night. He does whatever we need him to do to win," Brown said.

While Brown and teammates call McKey the most important player on the team, McKey was characteristically modest about his play following the win over Charlotte.

Derrick McKey has settled in with the Pacers and become the catalyst through which all offensive plays are run. "People used to tell me Derrick didn't come to play every night," said [Larry Brown]. "He may not have come to play offensively, but he's come to play defensively in every single game I've seen. He's the best all-around player I've ever coached."

This is 100% true.

Swingmen types coming into the league LOVED Derrick Mckey. Keith Van Horn was naturally compared to Larry Bird, given size, shooting, some off-ball and scoring ability. He said he was most similar to Derrick Mckey, whom he modeled his game after (don't agree at all). One of many.

Don't know if it was Sporting News, but in 1996 they published a list of top 10 per position, best of the rest and bottom of the barrel. There were 29 teams and players were rated from 1 - 29 depending on where they ranked in 5 different categories (shooting, defense and intangibles were the only categories rated in all 5 positions).

Hill was listed #2 SF behind Pippen, but based on the numbers Mckey was #2.

That said, it was always overblown.

All that is true on Reggie, and the importance of individual abilities is difficult measure in full...but game is 5v5.

Mckey and a lot of guys don't have the impact Reggie did. That's a great line about fans watching the basketball, but Reggie is the very type who gets overlooked because of it.

Because of big shots and a big mouth, he's remembered despite that.

tpols

05-23-2020, 03:21 PM

We remember 8 in 9. But it was of no real consequence. Like everything else you remember him doing.

why would it be of no consequence? because his team lost a razor thin 7 game series to Riley and Ewing's Knicks?

while he put up 25 ppg on 123 ORTG with super clutch moments? Better volume and efficiency than anybody else on either team?

John starks averaged 14 ppg on way worse shooting. Thats the guy you said coaches would take over miller. Guess they felt pretty dumb after that series...

The fact is Reggie led his pacers further than Scottie led his bulls in 1994. 25 ppg isnt low volume my friend. Thats absurdity.

the whole argument is just a wrap when you actually look into things. :lol

Pippen vs 94' Knicks... 22 on 41%
Miller'.. vs 94' Knicks... 25 on 44%

Pippen vs 99' Kobe... 18 on 33%
Miller.. vs 00' Kobe.... 24 on 40%[/indent]

thats actually not doing the disparity justice.

Reggie shot way better from 3 pt range, FT line, and had less TO's.

ORTG gives us the total umbrella of efficiency.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 03:26 PM

why would it be of no consequence? because his team lost a razor thin 7 game series to Riley and Ewing's Knicks?

while he put up 25 ppg on 123 ORTG with super clutch moments? Better volume and efficiency than anybody else on either team?

John starks averaged 14 ppg on way worse shooting. Thats the guy you said coaches would take over miller. Guess they felt pretty dumb after that series...

The fact is Reggie led his pacers further than Scottie led his bulls in 1994. 25 ppg isnt low volume my friend. Thats absurdity.

the whole argument is just a wrap when you actually look into things. :lol

thats actually not doing the disparity justice.

Reggie shot way better from 3 pt range, FT line, and had less TO's.

ORTG gives us the total umbrella of efficiency.

They didn't lose; they beat us.

They lost to Orlando in, I believe, 7.

tpols

05-23-2020, 03:30 PM

They didn't lose; they beat us.

They lost to Orlando in, I believe, 7.

im getting '94 and '95 mixed up.

:roll:

So why wouldnt it matter then though?

I mostly watched reggie as a kid mess with my Nets. His games in the 90s are ridiculous though.

3ball

05-23-2020, 03:34 PM

why would it be of no consequence? because his team lost a razor thin 7 game series to Riley and Ewing's Knicks?

while he put up 25 ppg on 123 ORTG with super clutch moments? Better volume and efficiency than anybody else on either team?

John starks averaged 14 ppg on way worse shooting. Thats the guy you said coaches would take over miller. Guess they felt pretty dumb after that series...

The fact is Reggie led his pacers further than Scottie led his bulls in 1994. 25 ppg isnt low volume my friend. Thats absurdity.

the whole argument is just a wrap when you actually look into things. :lol

thats actually not doing the disparity justice.

Reggie shot way better from 3 pt range, FT line, and had less TO's.

ORTG gives us the total umbrella of efficiency.

Forgot 1995 where Miller killed it again:

Pippen vs 94' Knicks... 22 on 41%
Miller'.. vs 94' Knicks... 25 on 44%

Pippen vs 95' Magic... 19 on 40%
Miller'.. vs 95' Magic... 26 on 52%

Pippen vs 99' Kobe... 18 on 33%
Miller.. vs 00' Kobe.... 24 on 40%

And you're right about ortg but most people don't acknowledge it

tpols

05-23-2020, 03:37 PM

Monta Ellis MVP

05-23-2020, 03:40 PM

3ball

05-23-2020, 03:43 PM

:applause:

Reggie was a beast. He would be great in any era and especially in this era.

Exactly

A team with Reggie sees him dominate the 94' Knicks, 95' Magic, and 00' Kobe, while a team with Pippen sees him wet the bed against all those guys

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 03:54 PM

i just dont get how people can say reggie "dissapeared" for games or huge stretches when he averaged 23-25 ppg on tremendous efficiency in the playoffs against super elite defenses.

Combined contextually with the fact he took the "big" shots... per larry bird. He wasnt antwan jamison scheming slick buckets.

Dude was straight takeover.

:facepalm

How? Watching him do it and not reading about it.

Reggie would straight up do nothing for whole....you know what?

I’m arguing with you about a movie I have seen 40 times that you read the reviews and box office numbers of. I’m really the stupid one here for bothering. Let me go get my haircut.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 03:55 PM

PoutinPippin

05-23-2020, 04:57 PM

1990 - 1993: Magic, Drexler, Nique
1994 and 1995: Pippen, Drexler, Spreewell
1996 - 1998: Hill, Penny, GP

Scottie’s peak came when the perimeter talent was at it’s absolute weakest transitioning between eras of superstars on the perimeter. And also coincided with Michael being out the game entirely.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 05:26 PM

why would it be of no consequence? because his team lost a razor thin 7 game series to Riley and Ewing's Knicks?

while he put up 25 ppg on 123 ORTG with super clutch moments? Better volume and efficiency than anybody else on either team?

John starks averaged 14 ppg on way worse shooting. Thats the guy you said coaches would take over miller. Guess they felt pretty dumb after that series...

The fact is Reggie led his pacers further than Scottie led his bulls in 1994. 25 ppg isnt low volume my friend. Thats absurdity.

the whole argument is just a wrap when you actually look into things. :lol

thats actually not doing the disparity justice.

Reggie shot way better from 3 pt range, FT line, and had less TO's.

ORTG gives us the total umbrella of efficiency.
I love how you’re always saying LeBron fans need to stop just using stats and actually watch the games and use context but then you’re getting furious at Kblaze doing the same thing to you when you’re just throwing stats at him. You have absolutely no sense of irony.

LoneyROY7

05-23-2020, 05:28 PM

The perimeter competition was EXTREMELY suspect for MJ in the 90s.

That much is not really even debatable TBH.

PoutinPippin

05-23-2020, 05:35 PM

The perimeter competition was EXTREMELY suspect for MJ in the 90s.

That much is not really even debatable TBH.
Magic - Top 5 Ever
Zeke - Top 5 PG Ever
Drexler - Top 5 SG Ever

LoneyROY7

05-23-2020, 05:36 PM

Magic - Top 5 Ever
Zeke - Top 5 PG Ever
Drexler - Top 5 SG Ever

So 2 point guards (both out of their primes) and a wing that dribbled with his head down?

Got it.

1987_Lakers

05-23-2020, 05:39 PM

Magic - Top 5 Ever
Zeke - Top 5 PG Ever
Drexler - Top 5 SG Ever

:roll:

West, MJ, Kobe, Wade, & Harden >> Drexler

Even Isiah can be argued out the top 5.

LoneyROY7

05-23-2020, 05:41 PM

Thread says 90s, and dude lists two PGs that dominated the 80s.

Can't make this shit up. :oldlol: :oldlol:

tpols

05-23-2020, 05:47 PM

I love how you’re always saying LeBron fans need to stop just using stats and actually watch the games and use context but then you’re getting furious at Kblaze doing the same thing to you when you’re just throwing stats at him. You have absolutely no sense of irony.

my argument against lebron was always about how he limited star players around him with his dribble spam style and was the anti-clutch.

(both true)

Reggie... limited nobody with his playstyle, in fact overachieved with sub optimal talent, AND he was one of the coldest blood bred mfers to ever play.

On top of the production, Miller's supreme fit and clutchness cant be ignored.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 05:54 PM

my argument against lebron was always about how he limited star players around him with his dribble spam style and was the anti-clutch.

(both true)

Reggie... limited nobody with his playstyle, in fact overachieved with sub optimal talent, AND he was one of the coldest blood bred mfers to ever play.

On top of the production, Miller's supreme fit and clutchness cant be ignored.
You're using stats as the basis of your argument with this Reggie stuff. I can show you plenty of stats that show you LeBron didn't limit his second options and that he is clutch, but you don't want to see those. How are you unable to see your hypocrisy here?

But but Reggie's TS%! :cry:

RRR3

05-23-2020, 05:55 PM

Magic - Top 5 Ever
Zeke - Top 5 PG Ever
Drexler - Top 5 SG Ever
How much did the first two play in the 90s, Coach? And Zeke isn't top 5 at his position. If Drexler still is, he's not going to be for long.

tpols

05-23-2020, 05:57 PM

You're using stats as the basis of your argument

No I'm not. Reggie Miller has more iconic moments than a lot of players better than him. He was a clutch icon.

The stats wouldnt even mean anything to me if they werent so lopsided.

We're talking landslide production & efficiency... with no westbrooking.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 06:00 PM

why would it be of no consequence? because his team lost a razor thin 7 game series to Riley and Ewing's Knicks?

while he put up 25 ppg on 123 ORTG with super clutch moments? Better volume and efficiency than anybody else on either team?

John starks averaged 14 ppg on way worse shooting. Thats the guy you said coaches would take over miller. Guess they felt pretty dumb after that series...

The fact is Reggie led his pacers further than Scottie led his bulls in 1994. 25 ppg isnt low volume my friend. Thats absurdity.

the whole argument is just a wrap when you actually look into things. :lol

thats actually not doing the disparity justice.

Reggie shot way better from 3 pt range, FT line, and had less TO's.

ORTG gives us the total umbrella of efficiency.
"I'm not using stats bro"

"BTW Giannis is bad at basketball"

The capybara of ISH strikes again.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 06:01 PM

tpols

05-23-2020, 06:04 PM

RRR3

05-23-2020, 06:10 PM

i also linked a bunch of videos showing what he did in crunchtime along with testimonial accounts from GOAT players regarding their observations on his impact...

the quantititative and qualitative analysis is simply legit.
Cool. Blaze actually watched him play, which is what you're always harping on. You're picking and choosing your arguments. GOAT hypocritical shit.

Lebron23

05-23-2020, 06:11 PM

2000's was the Golden Era of the shooting guard position.

tpols

05-23-2020, 06:13 PM

Cool. Blaze actually watched him play, which is what you're always harping on. You're picking and choosing your arguments. GOAT hypocritical shit.

i watched reggie miller and MJ play too. Granted i was a kid.

kblaze was a kid when magic and bird entered the league, yet you'll hear him talking them plenty.

you on the other hand? are like 3 decades behind. :roll:

RRR3

05-23-2020, 06:18 PM

i watched reggie miller and MJ play too. Granted i was a kid.

kblaze was a kid when magic and bird entered the league, yet you'll hear him talking them plenty.

you on the other hand? are like 3 decades behind. :roll:
Damn, your defense mechanisms kicked in HARD in this post. I hope you realize I'm not even arguing with your opinion on Reggie Miller. I'm just pointing out hypocrisy. It's mind boggling to me that you can't see it. Although, I suspect I might have brought it to your attention and you're just too stubborn to admit it.

Roundball_Rock

05-23-2020, 07:19 PM

3ball

05-23-2020, 07:24 PM

:rolleyes:

3ball

05-23-2020, 07:32 PM

8 pages in and we still haven't heard any real argument for Miller. Saying he was efficient on #2 or #3 option workloads isn't compelling. :lol

Why was Miller never a MVP candidate if he was "carrying" a perennial contender?

Miller wasn't MVP candidate back then because threes were undervalued

No one knew what he was doing

But history shows that he built/led teams better and further than Pippen, without a 3-peat system

And the stats show that Miller used the same possessions as Pippen (more actually) but with far better efficiency despite being gameplanned for, and he significantly outperformed Pippen against the 94' Knicks, 95' Magic, and 00' Lakers

Miller > pip but the group-think dumbness is STRONG on this one... b-b-but 6 rings doh..

theman93

05-23-2020, 07:40 PM

The 90’s featured many great perimeter players:

PG’s: Magic, Payton, Stockton, Penny, Thomas
SG’s: Drexler, Miller, Richmond, Dumars
SF’s: Wilkins, Grant, Mullin

All HoF players besides Penny who would have made it if injuries didn’t derail his career.

Perimeter players are only half the story though. The 90’s were built for PF’s and C’s. It’s impressive Jordan ended up the GOAT in an era that was not built for perimeter players.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 07:44 PM

The perimeter competition was EXTREMELY suspect for MJ in the 90s.

That much is not really even debatable TBH.

I think you missed the:

Magic, Isiah, Dumars, Drexler, Stockton, Mullin, Dominique, KJ, Price, Hardaway, Richmond, Reggie, Payton, Penny, Hill.

These 11 hall-of-famers plus KJ (desperately missing from the Hall and will get in), Tim Hardaway (not in probably because of former "I hate gays" nonsense and will get in), Price (who would have got in if he had a longer and uninterrupted prime).

And Penny Hardaway is better than all post Magic.

Also Jason Kidd for a couple seasons.

Not to mention Rod Strickland. Sprewell for a couple years when not choking.

Pssh.

tpols

05-23-2020, 07:46 PM

Miller wasn't MVP candidate back then because threes were undervalued

No one knew what he was doing

that is true.

for much of NBA history, FG % was the only efficiency ever quoted.

It was all about simply how many shots you took and how many you make.

FT's be damned, 3 pt shots being worth 50% more be damned, TO's be damned.

Thats all nerd stuff i guess. :confusedshrug:

3ball

05-23-2020, 07:48 PM

I think you missed the:

Magic, Isiah, Dumars, Drexler, Stockton, Mullin, Dominique, KJ, Price, Hardaway, Richmond, Reggie, Payton, Penny, Hill.

These 11 hall-of-famers plus KJ (desperately missing from the Hall and will get in), Tim Hardaway (not in probably because of former "I hate gays" nonsense and will get in), Price (who would have got in if he had a longer and uninterrupted prime).

And Penny Hardaway is better than all post Magic.

Also Jason Kidd for a couple seasons.

Not to mention Rod Strickland. Sprewell for a couple years when not choking.

Pssh.

Exactly

35-year MJ was MVP over the following all-stars in 98:

Grant Hill, Penny, Kidd, Kobe, Drexler, Pippen, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem

That's better in everything than today's crop of players

RRR3

05-23-2020, 07:48 PM

Miller wasn't MVP candidate back then because threes were undervalued

No one knew what he was doing

But history shows that he built/led teams better and further than Pippen, without a 3-peat system

And the stats show that Miller used the same possessions as Pippen (more actually) but with far better efficiency despite being gameplanned for, and he significantly outperformed Pippen against the 94' Knicks, 95' Magic, and 00' Lakers

Miller > pip but the group-think dumbness is STRONG on this one... b-b-but 6 rings doh..
I'm not sure how you fail to recognize that people don't rank Pippen over Miller because of scoring. Few, if any, people will argue Pippen was a better scorer.

LoneyROY7

05-23-2020, 07:56 PM

I think you missed the:

Magic, Isiah, Dumars, Drexler, Stockton, Mullin, Dominique, KJ, Price, Hardaway, Richmond, Reggie, Payton, Penny, Hill.

These 11 hall-of-famers plus KJ (desperately missing from the Hall and will get in), Tim Hardaway (not in probably because of former "I hate gays" nonsense and will get in), Price (who would have got in if he had a longer and uninterrupted prime).

And Penny Hardaway is better than all post Magic.

Also Jason Kidd for a couple seasons.

Not to mention Rod Strickland. Sprewell for a couple years when not choking.

Pssh.

:oldlol::oldlol:

First, I love how y'all keep listing Magic and Isiah when they weren't relevant in the 90s (Magic played 2 seasons in the 90s :lol).

Second, the rest of that list isn't even comparable to the current crop of perimeter players.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 07:58 PM

:oldlol::oldlol:

First, I love how y'all keep listing Magic and Isiah when they weren't relevant in the 90s (Magic played 2 seasons in the 90s :lol).

Second, the rest of that list isn't even comparable to the current crop of perimeter players.
They couldn't list a single player on the same level as Grandpa LeBron, KD, Steph Curry, Kawhi, Giannis, baby Luka Doncic or Harden besides Magic and like you said he played only two years in the 90s.

3ball

05-23-2020, 08:03 PM

Im not sure how you fail to recognize that people don't rank Pippen over Miller because of scoring.

Right, they do it because of rings

Few, if any, people will argue Pippen was a better scorer.

Its like saying Draymond is better than Curry because of defense

Miller built/led teams better and further than Pippen, and without a 3-peat system -miller also outplayed Pippen against everyone, significantly.

1987_Lakers

05-23-2020, 08:05 PM

:oldlol::oldlol:

First, I love how y'all keep listing Magic and Isiah when they weren't relevant in the 90s (Magic played 2 seasons in the 90s :lol).

Second, the rest of that list isn't even comparable to the current crop of perimeter players.

This.

if you want t to list players throughout the years we can say LeBron played against guys like Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, Allen, Ginobili, Curry, Klay, Durant, Harden, Lillard, Irving, Westbrook, Kawhi, P. Geroge, CP3, Nash, McGrady, Iverson, Carmelo, Luka

That's at the very least 16 HOFers right there. I didn't even include Rose who won MVP in 2011 and played LeBron in the ECF.

Rico2016

05-23-2020, 08:13 PM

Scottie Pippen made 8 consecutive all defense 1st teams

92 to 99

check mate

3ball

05-23-2020, 08:17 PM

Scottie Pippen made 8 consecutive all defense 1st teams

92 to 99

check mate

Is draymond considered better than Curry or Jokic because of defense?

Pippen is simply overrated

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 08:25 PM

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 08:28 PM

I sincerely can’t wait till someone creates a next level advanced stat in 20 years that gradually takes over nerd ball discussion and we have a kid born in 2014 adamant that nobody in 2020 knew how good the players they watched were. That due to the Jacobs formula they know 2020 better in 2040 than we know it now.

Turns out some borderline all star we might rank alongside CJ Mccollum was actually better than Anthony Davis or Kawhi. If I live that long I’ll have a good laugh from the shadows. One of these dudes hooked on what will eventually be considered the Stone Age of advanced numbers is gonna stroke out when a kid is telling them that nobody had any idea what they were seeing. That us having watched those players is not only irrelevant....but a point against us. Having seen the games be played we are biased by the false narratives and emotion surrounding the raw data. The Jacobs formula filters out all that noise and gives you the simple truth. Eyes see what your brain tells them. The data sees the facts. Turns out Rick Barry was the goat all along and Lamarcus Aldridge was robbed of 4 mvps.

Im gonna read that post with an erection if I can still achieve one in 20 years. Might take longer. But it’s coming. Basketball will join baseball and the “Actually....Babe Ruth never as effective Alex “Ax Handle” O’Malley was in 1878.” nerds will reign supreme.

I just wanna live long enough for those who started the transition to realize what they’ve done.

FKAri

05-23-2020, 08:33 PM

I sincerely can’t wait till someone creates a next level advanced stat in 20 years that gradually takes over nerd ball discussion and we have a kid born in 2014 adamant that nobody in 2020 knew how good the players they watched were. That due to the Jacobs formula they know 2020 better in 2040 than we know it now. Turns out some borderline all star we might rank alongside CJ Mccollum was actually better than Anthony Davis or Kawhi. If I live that long I’ll have a good laugh from the shadows. One of these dudes hooked on what will eventually be considered the Stone Age of advanced numbers is gonna strike out when a kid is telling them that nobody had any idea what they were seeing. That is having watched those players is not only irrelevant....but a point against us. Having seen the games be played we are biased by the false narratives and emotion surrounding the raw data. The Jacobs formula filters out all that noise and gives you the simple truth. Eyes see what your brain tells them. The data sees the facts. Turns out Rick Barry was the goat all along and Lamarcus Aldridge was robbed of 4 mvps.

Im gonna read that post with an erection if I can still achieve one in 20 years. Might take longer. But it’s coming. Basketball will join baseball and the “Actually....Babe Ruth never as effective Alex “Ax Handle” O’Malley was in 1878.” nerds will reign supreme.

I just wanna live long enough for those who started the transition to realize what they’ve done.

If someone were to rewatch the equivalent amount of footage in the future, they actually would have a better handle on what they're watching than we did live. They'd be detached from the emotion and fandom. The live commentary, discussions with friends, seeing ESPN reactions, all play into how we feel about what happened in the game. It would be singular perspective but a less distorted one.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 08:34 PM

They couldn't list a single player on the same level as Grandpa LeBron, KD, Steph Curry, Kawhi, Giannis, baby Luka Doncic or Harden besides Magic and like you said he played only two years in the 90s.

I don't really get what you think you're saying.

Don't get caught up in Harden's exaggerated numbers these last 3 years, or Westbrook's numbers.

And don't laugh at 3ball calling Willis a wing if you're listing Giannis.

Penny and Hill...don't think you have a clue how good they were. Because if you did, then they're not same level? Only because you're watching in real time.

Mitch Richmond would have a ball right now. Essentially shits on Bradley Beal's beliefs as a player. Don't be so confident that he'd be in Harden's dust.

Kevin Johnson wouldn't compare to who? Tim Hardaway wouldn't be an All-NBA player?

Don't go braggadocius about something you'll be wrong over.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

05-23-2020, 08:39 PM

Magic
Isiah
Drexler
Nique
Pippen
Payton
Richmond
Glen Rice
Miller
Penny
Hill
Iverson

Then you got guys like Spree, Big Dog, KJ, Tim Hardaway, Mullin, Allan Houston etc.

Think it was Jordan who claimed Richmond was the most underrated player in the league. Makes sense. Dude gave Mike and Chicago buckets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER7rDOXXVyI)

Its an absolute MYTH the 90s had 'weak' perimeter players. Expansion messed with a lot of clubs.

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 08:43 PM

If someone were to rewatch the equivalent amount of footage in the future, they actually would have a better handle on what they're watching than we did live. They'd be detached from the emotion and fandom. The live commentary, discussions with friends, seeing ESPN reactions, all play into how we feel about what happened in the game. It would be singular perspective but a less distorted one.

Oh I’m sure that will be a big part of the reasoning. We must remove the noise from evaluation. And the one true way.....is to not watch anything happen. It comes up in baseball talk. The idea that having seen a prospect can be a problem when you evaluate him. Some of the stories revolve around the bias from things as simple as one player being attractive and what that does to the evaluation. Scouts often report things like how the ball sounds coming off a bat which isn’t needed. It just makes a hard hitter more attractive to old school types. People are absolutely trying to remove the bias creating aspect of seeing a performance first person. And when they think they get it right....they will be certain none of us knew a thing.

Im telling you....in 20 years....Billy Cunningham is top 15.

tpols

05-23-2020, 08:44 PM

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 08:48 PM

Oh I’m sure that will be a big part of the reasoning. We must remove the noise from evaluation. And the one true way.....is to not watch anything happen. It comes up in baseball talk. The idea that having seen a prospect can be a problem when you evaluate him. Some of the stories revolve around the bias from things as simple as one player being attractive and what that does to the evaluation. Scouts often report things like how the ball sounds coming off a bat which isn’t needed. It just makes a hard hitter more attractive to old school types. People are absolutely trying to remove the bias creating aspect of seeing a performance first person. And when they think they get it right....they will be certain none of us knew a thing.

Im telling you....in 20 years....Billy Cunningham is top 15.

Well that's the thing...the people who comment the most on what happened are those who didn't really watch and didn't really go back and watch.

John Stockton isn't on the level of these guys today...that's a remarkable thing for anyone to think.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 08:54 PM

I don't really get what you think you're saying.

Don't get caught up in Harden's exaggerated numbers these last 3 years, or Westbrook's numbers.

And don't laugh at 3ball calling Willis a wing if you're listing Giannis.

Penny and Hill...don't think you have a clue how good they were. Because if you did, then they're not same level? Only because you're watching in real time.

Mitch Richmond would have a ball right now. Essentially shits on Bradley Beal's beliefs as a player. Don't be so confident that he'd be in Harden's dust.

Kevin Johnson wouldn't compare to who? Tim Hardaway wouldn't be an All-NBA player?

Don't go braggadocius about something you'll be wrong over.
Giannis plays like a wing, you tool. Did Willis?

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 09:17 PM

ORTG isnt a next level advanced stat... its literally, your FG %, FT %, and how many turnovers you committed summed up in one...

kawhi is... a 120 ORTG performer. Cant hate. Davis is very close.

Again... no hate.

Rick Barry's efficiency in the only title he ever won was absolutely pitiful.

70's NBA was beyond a joke. The leading scorer on the team he beat in the Finals? a guy by the name of Phil Chenier.

:roll:

The exact same issue comes up that comes up with all “advanced” stats that compile existing information. If the information is already there....broken down so you know what’s what....you get nothing new from combining them. You still have to go back to the original career stats page to see why it’s what it is. Someone who doesn’t know Tyson Chandler or Steve Kerr don’t know why their true shooting numbers are whatever. Just get a number. They find out why it’s what it is when they get the numbers that combine to form true shooting....so why the ****....combine them?

These things don’t save time. To put them into context you go look at the same numbers from 30 years ago. Just look at them to begin with until entirely new numbers are there.

Im happy to see screen assists....I’m happy to see successful drives per attempt on each player in isolation if we could correct for the ability of each attacker. If you get roasted by Harden all the time your number will be worse than a guy who gets to guard Gordon. Plenty of room to give us new information. And it’s coming out. True new stats.

The advanced stats we hear the most about are just combining known numbers you still have to reference to put the final number in context. Which brings us back to the start....

If I need to deconstruct your work to see why the answer is what it is....and make use of it?

Then the answe you gave me initially did nothing but waste time.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 09:20 PM

Giannis plays like a wing, you tool. Did Willis?

So let's add Barkley to the 90's list.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 09:22 PM

So let's add Barkley to the 90's list.
Giannis is better than Barkley lmao.

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 09:23 PM

Kblaze8855

05-23-2020, 09:24 PM

Giannis is better than Barkley lmao.

He’s a better defender.

Put 4 shooters around Chuck, don’t let anyone touch him, and let him get up a head of steam to charge down court in transition off every rebound he grabs.

You may have a different opinion.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 09:27 PM

RRR3

05-23-2020, 09:28 PM

Phil is kinda the Tony Parker to Hayes and Unselds Tim and Manu. He’s a star just a less discussed one. Unseld is a pretty good example of what we’re talking about. Like a 12/15 player most of his career....but the players voted him mvp, he went to 4 finals, won a ring and finals mvp as his teams 8th or so leading scorer, and every player on the team will tell you he was the leader. Some things just can’t yet be counted.
Phil Chenier was a 3x all star and All-NBA 2nd team in 1975 (he also finished 8th in MVP voting that year). I'm not sure why tpols is acting like dude sucked.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 09:29 PM

The real issue with his post is that he said lmao.
Defense.

RRR3

05-23-2020, 09:30 PM

He’s a better defender.

Put 4 shooters around Chuck, don’t let anyone touch him, and let him get up a head of steam to charge down court in transition off every rebound he grabs.

You may have a different opinion.
I don't dispute Barkley was better on offense, but was his edge in offense enough to offset the defensive edge? Giannis might win DPOY. Barkley was known as a poor defender. Maybe he wasn't actually one, but I always hear he was.

1987_Lakers

05-23-2020, 09:34 PM

Rick Barry's efficiency in the only title he ever won was absolutely pitiful.

70's NBA was beyond a joke. The leading scorer on the team he beat in the Finals? a guy by the name of Phil Chenier.

:roll:

To be fair, while I agree that the 70's NBA was among the worst, Barry's efficiency wasn't that bad if you compare it relative to his league at the time. The average TS% in 1975 was 50.2, Barry's TS% was 50.9, his efficiency overall was slightly above average and I would have to assume it was good compared to other perimeter players. MJ's efficiency in '98 is comparable, his TS% that year was also around average compared to the rest of the league.

Whoah10115

05-23-2020, 09:40 PM

I have to agree with Kblaze on something like TS%..don't you get a better idea by actually reading the entire line?

Even the math is boring.

Also, Barkley was a scorer, but his scoring is greater than his numbers. Was never a stat-padder. Giannis is a ways away from Charles Barkley.

light

05-23-2020, 09:59 PM

Who was Jordan's Magic or Bird?
Or Jordan's Lebron, Kobe or Durant?

Its got to be Drexler, right? After watching "Last Dance" and games as they transpired, Drexler was never Jordan's rival after 1992 though.

It was Pippen.

999Guy

05-23-2020, 10:12 PM

People say Reggie disappeared for huge stretches of games...because he disappeared for huge stretches of games. :lol He could impact the game only as a scorer, and his scoring came through jump shots (Miller wasn't out there crossing people over and putting down thunderous dunks). That is a problem for a player who has trouble creating his own shot. So if he wasn't getting shots off or his shot was cold he was useless. He couldn't impact a game defensively or as a playmaker. As KBlaze noted, his own coach said:

This was a defense of him.

The Reggie efficiency stuff is amusing. You can't find another 90's "first option" who was operating on so little volume. Sure he could be hyper efficient on 13-15 shots a game but he couldn't scale up to the type of workload #1 options typically got. If you asked Reggie to take 18-20 shots what would his "efficiency" be then?

He got his 20 but often it was the same way Klay Thompson does today: in a big spurt and then not much before or after that.

Klay Thompson is not as good at Reggie at damn near ANYTHING offensively. Not being able to differentiate this is really showing your lack of credibility at even recognizing the simplest aspects of this.

Speed, and quickness(Reggie’s first step shits all over any aspect of his athleticism), raw leaping ability, decelerations to draw fouls on drives. Better handle, better passer. Better motor.

Reggie actually did put a lot of pressure on the rim. He was an elite cutter and got to the line at the same rate as Harden or Barkley in his 20’s.

The only way Reggie was being “contained”, for long stretches is by applying unusual amounts of defensive attention at hard parts of the court to cover(rim on cuts, corners, wings).

Someone said Reggie did “nothing” for long stretches. He literally did a lot. Probably more than anyone of the era off the ball. Reggie WOULD HAVE gotten 20 shots if he wasn’t getting doubled off the ball.

The price of doubling him costs him shot attempts but make it a lot easier on a Jackson, Sxhrempf, and Smits. This is common basketball sense. And it didbmake Reggie a better player than his boxscore.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 07:10 AM

He moved a lot and wore out his man....but moving a lot and scoring a lot arent really the same. I’ve often wondered what his actual scoring was off the ball. He made 6 shots a game for his career. Considering fast break points and the fact that he actually did post up or play out of the triple threat at times it’s entirely possible that Reggie would play 35-40 minutes and only make 4 shots from off the ball movement. Naturally you throw some fouls in there but....doesn’t that seem low?

He moved all the time....the ball just didn’t end up in the basket that often from it. Off sheer volume I don’t know if he would be his eras top off the ball scorer. It really could be Jordan who young fans don’t even realize played that way.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FineGargantuanFlee-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IncredibleSecondAmericanmarten-size_restricted.gif

It really isn’t impossible that Jordan or even Iverson actually scored more off the ball than Reggie did when you realize it couldn’t be more than 5ish makes a game. Reggie was the premier off the ball player of his(or maybe any) time but an absolute fact is....it wasn’t on very much volume. A lot of his running was clear outs and so on for others as you mentioned where he was an alternate option.

Im sure not knowing when he was actually the intended target made it harder to guard him. You can’t even let up. I’d just really like those numbers. Those are the advanced stats I want from the 90s. Highlights have kids thinking MJ and AI scored one on one all the time. They did of course....but they also cooked guys off the ball. And with such higher volume?

They at least might outscore him off the ball. Not sure....but it would be an interesting report to read if I could get like a 10 year breakdown.

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 07:54 AM

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 08:01 AM

My vote goes to Stockton by the way...

fourkicks44

05-24-2020, 08:13 AM

AussieSteve

05-24-2020, 08:21 AM

It's between Stockton, Pippen, Drexler and Payton. But if we're talking peak level of play, you gotta throw Grant Hill and Penny in there as well.

Stockton has the most All NBA selections.

Pippen has the second most, and the most 1st team selections.

Pippen is also the only one with two top 5 MVP finishes (aside from Magic in 90 and 91)

It's gotta be Pippen.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 08:40 AM

Love how most people still dont understand Miller's game and assume that just by looking at the stats they have him figured out.

You realize the only reason people 20 years later decided Reggie was more than he was back then is fame and random advanced stats right?

It most certainly isn’t a breakdown of his total basketball skill set. Reggie isn’t even Manu if we are talking total skill set. The Reggie train is driven by ESPN specials and advanced stats. Just read this topic....or one of the many others. People use efficiency stats to rewrite history and are actively doing it in this very topic.

AussieSteve

05-24-2020, 08:52 AM

Giannis is better than Barkley lmao.

Nah

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 09:00 AM

Oh and this is you some time ago....apparently the rewriting continues. You used to acknowledge some things I don’t think you say now:

To be honest, I dont really believe Reggie was a great clutch player compared to other greats. What he does in the playoffs is simply just shooting more and showing his natural scoring ability. I think he shoots more to take pressure off his other teammates who may not be ready for the big game.

Reggie has too many intangibles going for him that its really hard to gauge him as a player. All the players you listed like Terrell Brandon, Eddie jones, Sprewell etc are all really better than him in terms of basketball ability but do you really think they can replicate the same amount of success Reggie had if they take his place? Eddie jones is not leading the pacers against the Magic, Knicks and Bulls in the playoffs that for sure.

I somewhat understand where your opinion of Reggie is coming from and most of it are very true and I respect that. But when you and some other people say that he is not even comparable or on the same level as players like Allen, pierce, sprewell etc, people he has outplayed in the playoffs thats the time I react.

You tell me that by basketball ability he isn’t Brandon, Jones, or Spre but they may not replicate his success. Which is for the most part true. Hard to plug and play different kinda of players. But at the end.....he’s on the same level as Pierce and Allen. He’s worse at basketball than Eddie Jones....but you are offended that he’s not considered Paul Pierce....because occasional weeks of hot shooting or having a better week than one of them might?

As if lesser players don’t have a good series vs better players and not actually be as good as them all the time? As if Gus Williams didn’t go to two finals and win a ring knocking out about 8 hall of famers(Kareem twice...he put up like 31 a game doing it too). He put up 27 a game on a title run. Doesn’t make him actually better or even on the level of the people he knocked out. It isn’t nearly that simple. Teams win. And when you do give all the credit to one player it needs to be one who stands out over his teammates more than Reggie did as you previously acknowledged when first presented with all those quotes of players, coaches, and so on saying a number of other pacers were more important:

Those 90s Pacers teams to me had really good players which were all equally important to the success of the team. While most of the highlights were provided by Miller, those pacers are not winning any games without the post play of Smits, the rebounding and defense of the Davis Brothers, Mark jacksons floor leadership and the versatility and defense provided by Mckey. Too bad that Mckey was getting past his prime when they had their best teams in 1998. All the versatility, rebounding, defense and hustle is what that 98 pacers teams lacked that Mckey could have provided to get over the hump

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 09:06 AM

You realize the only reason people 20 years later decided Reggie was more than he was back then is fame and random advanced stats right?

It most certainly isn’t a breakdown of his total basketball skill set. Reggie isn’t even Manu if we are talking total skill set. The Reggie train is driven by ESPN specials and advanced stats. Just read this topic....or one of the many others. People use efficiency stats to rewrite history and are actively doing it in this very topic.

Maybe his teams winning playoff games/series against the beasts of the east in the 90s has something to do with that?

Give Manu his own team and have no one be better than him how far do you think they go?

He was not carrying those teams but he was their leader and best player. He had playoff series wins against alltime great players like Shaq/Penny, Ewing, Iverson, Ray etc so you have to give someone credit for those accomplishments.

RRR3

05-24-2020, 09:06 AM

Nah
Take a look at what Giannis is doing this season.

Monta Ellis MVP

05-24-2020, 09:08 AM

Love how most people still dont understand Miller's game and assume that just by looking at the stats they have him figured out.

His numbers speak for themselves but what separates him from his peers is his intangibles like leadership, toughness, purposely not shooting a high volume to give teammates touches and spacing the floor to give them room to operate, being coachable, being loyal to the franchise and the city and never causing problems, building chemistry with teammates on and off the floor, being mentally tough and showing no signs of weakness against opponents.

Coaches talk about controversial stuff all the time, exaggerating stuff just to give praise to underrated players so acting like Reggie wasnt even the best player on his team is laughable when you could probably quote the same coaches praising him for his play. Isiah even once said Miller was the teams best defender at age 35 :D

Miller may not be the best perimeter player after Jordan in the 90s but those 5 conference finals trips and one Finals berth speak for themselves.

Yes. Reggie Miller was a clutch god. It’s not how many points a player scores but when they score them and how they help their teammates score. Reggie Miller reminds me of Steph Curry today when he puts pressure on defenses by moving so much while being such a shooting threat. This stretches and tires defenses and lets everyone else get better opportunities. I don’t know why some people say we should not use advanced stats with Reggie Miller and only use box score statistics? That is very interesting. I still think Miller could be the best player in the league today with the shift to three pointers and perimeter scoring. He would get lots of MVP votes and maybe even win one.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 09:11 AM

I just think he's a great great offensive player. His off-ball game made others better. Never needed ESPN to tell me that. He was an elite player.

Also, saying Spree is better than Manu is funny stuff.

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 09:12 AM

Oh and this is you some time ago....apparently the rewriting continues. You used to acknowledge some things I don’t think you say now:

You tell me that by basketball ability he isn’t Brandon, Jones, or Spre. Which is for the most part true. But at the end.....he’s on the same level as Pierce and Allen. He’s worse at basketball than Eddie Jones....but you are offended that he’s not considered Paul Pierce....because occasional weeks of hot shooting?

As if lesser players don’t have a good series vs better players and not actually be as good as them all the time? As if Gus Williams didn’t go to two finals and win a ring knocking out about 8 hall of famers(Kareem twice...he put up like 31 a game doing it too). He put up 27 a game on a title run. Doesn’t make him actually better or even on the level of the people he knocked out. It isn’t nearly that simple. Teams win. And when you do give all the credit to one player it needs to be one who stands out over his teammates more than Reggie did as you previously acknowledged when first presented with all those quotes of players, coaches, and so on saying a number of other pacers were more important:

I think what happened here is you fought about it on the internet so long your natural inclination is now to back Reggie even at the expense of teammates....against your original positions. You may have been ISHed into taking more hard line stances but I think 2012 you was closer to reality. And closer to remembering the time in question too. Which may be a factor.

Still feel the same, heck i posted about how great Rik Smits was a few weeks ago. The real problem is up to now you dont understand the intangibles that Miller brought to the table enabling his teams to have decent success even past their primes.

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 09:20 AM

An example of his many intangibles which I posted on another thread a week ago
https://youtu.be/j53NEAklkT0

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 09:23 AM

I think on the baseline we aren’t thaaaat far off. Not as much as it seems at a glance. I’ve always said all great players are closer than their standing history. The 88th best all time on the same floor as the 16th isn’t THAT far off. Whoever the GOAT is he will occasionally be outplayed by high end role players.

Any Star can outplay a better one for a while. Reggie being worse in total skill set than say....Manu or Paul George...doesn’t mean they would always play better or that a team built to suit Reggie couldn’t win a series vs them. It happens.

None of this is bum vs legend. It’s legend vs better legend. Reggie isn’t in the hall for nothing.

Hes just not individually that exceptional by the standards of other stars. That isn’t like....a slap in the face.

He played in a time that didn’t let him be as dominant as I know he could be now. Bad timing. But it is what it is.

2020 Reggie is likely getting MVP talk some years. 1994 Reggie wasn’t considered that good. His game didn’t suit his league as well. It’s not his fault but it’s not mine either.

BigShotBob

05-24-2020, 09:27 AM

I'd definitely go with Penny as "overall" the best after Jordan in the 90's. But this question is like asking "who was the best big after Hakeem in the 90's?" Well there were different stages.

Pippen's best season individually was 94' but other than that I can't name a time he was the second or even third best perimeter player. From an individual player standpoint Mitch Richmond was considered the MJ of the West. Watch him upset Seattle in the playoffs for a game and you'll see why. He could take over and Pippen never really had that "take over" ability offensively.

Then we have Clyde Drexler, and that's obvious. Another "MJ of the West" comparison.

In the early, 90's (90 - 91) Joe Dumars was a monster. He'd shut anyone down and still drop 30.

Then we have Penny. Enough said. Better scorer, passer/facilitator, and ball-handler than Scottie.

And then we can name Alan Houston, Dan Majerle, Steve Smith, Latrelle Sprewell, John Starks, Glenn Rice, Tim Hardaway, Chris Mullin, Detlef Schrempf, Jamal Mashburn, Grant Hill, etc, etc.

So....agenda thread aside. The guards were extremely deep in the 90's (I know most of you wouldn't know this though) but I had trading cards so trust me I know.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 09:41 AM

An example of his many intangibles which I posted on another thread a week ago
https://youtu.be/j53NEAklkT0

And an example of his many tangibles?

The very next night he had 6 points in a loss and a week earlier he had 1 point in a loss. 3-6 and 0-8 in those two games. And I promise you....nobody cared. Nobody was shocked. But when I say he would vanish for long stretches people act like I made it up. Reggie would often have a quick 12 point quarter then go ghost for 20 minutes with commentary going on about it. I watched those games like you. Heard the discussions like you did. Regular season and playoffs. “The pacers cannot win unless Reggie Miller gets involved at some point” discussions. We both heard it.

And people who were either not born or were 4 will come tell me it didn’t happen.

You can imagine how that would bug me right?

Reggie might have the most misinformation spinning around him of any recent great. I’m sure we both agree on that. Just not who the misinformation favors.

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 09:43 AM

tpols

05-24-2020, 09:44 AM

He moved all the time....the ball just didn’t end up in the basket that often from it. .

sure it did, if not him one of his teammates.

that type of decoy action opens up tons of avenues indirectly for teammates to score.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 09:46 AM

I’m gonna cheap shot everyone now and then though. It’s my nature. I don’t mind how you respond generally. I know you actually saw the shit in question we just have a different take on it. You’re a reasonable men may differ situation. Some of these guys are just full of shit though.

Reggie43

05-24-2020, 09:49 AM

And an example of his many tangibles?

The very next night he had 6 points in a loss and a week earlier he had 1 point in a loss. 3-6 and 0-8 in those two games. And I promise you....nobody cared. Nobody was shocked. But when I say he would vanish for long stretches people act like I made it up. Reggie would often have a quick 12 point quarter then go ghost for 20 minutes with commentary going on about it. I watched those games like you. Heard the discussions like you did. Regular season and playoffs. “The pacers cannot win unless Reggie Miller gets involved at some point” discussions. We both heard it.

And people who were either not born or were 4 will come tell me it didn’t happen.

You can imagine how that would bug me right?

Reggie might have the most misinformation spinning around him of any recent great. I’m sure we both agree on that. Just not who the misinformation favors.

Posted this to highlight his mental toughness and its effect on his opponents. Pacers came back from 22 down in this game and he just knew what to do at the very moment when the Bulls had a chance to tie the game at the last seconds.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 09:53 AM

I feel like it may have been from down even more than that but I’m not about to look into it. I remember it being laughed at because of the kick like the one Person got ejected for previously.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 09:56 AM

Few, if any, people will argue Pippen was a better scorer.

The difference is wildly exaggerated. One guy scored 21 PPG in his prime and the other...20 PPG. When both overlapped as #1 options Pippen outscored Miller during that time. Pippen was 22.0 in 94', 21.9 (in 63 games pre-MJ) and Miller 19.9, 19.6 PPG in those same seasons.

Miller was more efficient (albeit on prime Hornacek, prime Hawkins type volume) but Pippen had a more polished game and more means to get his buckets. When Miller's shot was off he was done. He wasn't going to get transition buckets, beat a guy off the dribble and finish at the rim, or have the post up game Pippen had.

Of course these are bad faith arguments (the agenda is obvious). They will say Pippen sucked as a scorer because he scored 20 PPG, I or others will point out another player scored the same--and they will say that guy was a Wilt-type scorer. :lol

I'm not sure how you fail to recognize that people don't rank Pippen over Miller

The Pippen thing is weird because in his own era Miller wasn't even ranked over Mitch Richmond and was being compared to guys like Hornacek, Hawkins (as equals) and McKey, Schrempf (unfavorably). If anyone said Miller>Pippen in 1992 or 1995 they would be considered as much a joke as someone saying Klay>Kawhi or Klay>Harden today.

Sprewell for a couple years when not choking.

For the benefit of younger posters, the choking he is referring to is not what you are thinking of but rather literally choking (his coach). :lol

f you want t to list players throughout the years we can say LeBron played against guys like Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, Allen, Ginobili, Curry, Klay, Durant, Harden, Lillard, Irving, Westbrook, Kawhi, P. Geroge, CP3, Nash, McGrady, Iverson, Carmelo, Luka

That's at the very least 16 HOFers right there. I didn't even include Rose who won MVP in 2011 and played LeBron in the ECF.

My man Butler too.

If someone were to rewatch the equivalent amount of footage in the future, they actually would have a better handle on what they're watching than we did live. They'd be detached from the emotion and fandom

That argument can be made in favor of Miller--but even there no one has him as the highest 90's perimeter player all-time after MJ. That is always Pippen followed by Stockton. Then you have Miller, Payton, Drexler in some order in the next tier.

Pippen's best season individually was 94' but other than that I can't name a time he was the second or even third best perimeter player.

Well, other than 92', 93', 95', 96', 97', 98' in addition to 94'.

Then we have Penny. Enough said. Better scorer

Fact check:

Prime Penny (95'-97'): 21.1 PPG
Prime Pippen (91'-98') 20.0 PPG

As #1 options: Pippen 22.0 PPG, Penny 20.5 PPG

We have these MJ people constantly invoking how awesome every other perimeter player was at scoring relative to Pippen but time and again when you check under the hood...Pippen was scoring as much as them and more than them when he was a #1 option. #badfaith

BigShotBob

05-24-2020, 09:56 AM

Reggie disappeared in the 4th quarter of game 7 against the Bulls (0 points). He was being guarded by MJ but still.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 09:58 AM

sure it did, if not him one of his teammates.

that type of decoy action opens up tons of avenues indirectly for teammates to score.

The pacers played through and off Smits more than Miller people just can’t tell by totals. This is a fairly accurate example of how they used him:

https://youtu.be/HfQWVuOXvD4

He might get force fed the ball like Shaq or Hakeem....just in short bursts minutes wise so the total never added up. A lot of the plays ended with the option of Reggie coming open to shoot....or not coming I’m open and either he or someone else just dumps it down to Smits and watch him work.

Years of Reggie clips really throw people off far as how that offense was played. It was never Reggie and his helpers. It was a whole team looking to find smits for 25 minutes and Reggie picking spots and trying to get more aggressive in the 10 minutes or so he was there without smits.

Hes just totally forgotten these days.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 10:09 AM

The pacers played through and off Smits more than Miller people just can’t tell by totals.

If you say that, apparently that is "anti-MJ." :lol The per 36 minute and usage numbers make it obvious: when both were on the court together Smits was the more utilized scoring option.

People going by stats say 94' was easily Pippen's best year but he was comparable in 95' and 96'. Look at this from 1996:

The Bulls don't need to convince anyone of that. At times their games are more performance than competition, with Jordan and Pippen taking turns doing spectacular solos. "No one is even challenging them," says Adubato. "Pippen and Jordan are like they're in a playground enjoying themselves." Pippen, who through Sunday was averaging 21.6 points (16th in the league), 6.5 assists (16th) and 6.7 rebounds, is having perhaps the best season of his career, which Jordan, who seems to have appointed himself Pippen's MVP campaign manager, has repeatedly pointed out. Jordan has gone so far as to call the Bulls Pippen's team. That may be a stretch, but Pippen has proved himself to be more than a mere member of Jordan's supporting cast. "I think Pippen could be an MVP candidate, but as long as Michael's there, because of his personality and confidence and competitiveness, there's nobody better," says Whitsitt. "I'd still defer to Michael, but it's 1 and 1A. It used to be 1 and 2."

With Rodman beside them under the boards, Luc Longley and Bill
Wennington have combined to perform adequately at center, and Kerr has come off the bench and found a niche as the spot-up shooter so essential to a team with players who draw as many double teams as Jordan and Pippen do

MVP talk? 1a to Jordan? In 1996, not 1994? Also, why are they doubling a "mediocre" scorer again?

https://vault.si.com/vault/1996/01/29/toy-story-the-bulls-are-making-childs-play-of-foes-as-they-shoot-for-a-record-70-wins

RRR3

05-24-2020, 10:14 AM

The stats do in fact support what you’re saying about Smits, Blaze. If you look at his per 36 minute stats, you can see he was being used pretty heavily on offense.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 10:19 AM

The stats do in fact support what you’re saying about Smits, Blaze. If you look at his per 36 minute stats, you can see he was being used pretty heavily on offense.

Which begs the question: why? We are hearing Miller>Pippen, Miller>Drexler, two legitimate superstars. Yet he is ceding that much usage to Rik Smits (who is getting greater usage than "alpha alpha" Miller)?

This is why the Miller stuff is a joke. If he played with Drexler or Pippen he would be the second option, no questions asked.

RRR3

05-24-2020, 10:20 AM

Which begs the question: why? We are hearing Miller>Pippen, Miller>Drexler, two legitimate superstars. Yet he is ceding that much usage to Rik Smits?
The stats suggest that Smits was getting shots that should have gone to Reggie instead. I’m not saying this is automatically true because I didn’t watch, but that is the logical conclusion to be drawn from Reggie’s stats and Smits’. I am pretty sure I have never seen a GOAT list with Reggie over Pippen. Pippen is pretty much locked into being somewhere in the 20-30 range. I think Backpicks has Reggie over Clyde though.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 10:38 AM

The stats suggest that Smits was getting shots that should have gone to Reggie instead. I’m not saying this is automatically true because I didn’t watch, but that is the logical conclusion to be drawn from Reggie’s stats and Smits’.

Smits was getting shots Miller couldn't take. He was a limited player, especially given how basketball was played in the 90's, he couldn't scale up to #1 option volume for a sustained period. He averaged 14.0 FGA from 1990-2000, 14.2 from 1990-1998. Let's compare that to other perimeter players mentioned in this thread:

FGA per game by 90's Era Perimeter Player in Primes

Miller (90'-98'): 14.2
Drexler (88'-95'): 18.0
Pippen (91'-98'): 16.2 (17.4 as #1 option)
Penny (95'-97'): 15.1 (15.9 as #1 option)
Hill (95'-00'): 16.4
Payton (94'-02'): 17.5
Wilkins (86'-94'): 22.3
Jordan (87'-96'): 23.9
Stockton (88'-96'): 10.8

So Miller is behind everyone, except Stockton, even guys who were #2 options for their teams (and comparable to some #3 options like Hornacek). He didn't get more usage because he didn't have the skills to get more shots. If he somehow took 18 or 20 a game, those would be poor quality and hence low efficiency shots. In today's game he would be taking 10 three's but that isn't what those extra shots would have been in the 90's.

BTW, as this list shows, Wilkins and Jordan were the only big perimeter scorers of that era. Everybody else is just agenda-driven hype who in the real world were scoring 20-21 (Drexler 23 for his prime).

RRR3

05-24-2020, 10:45 AM

Smits was getting shots Miller couldn't take. He was a limited player, especially given how basketball was played in the 90's, he couldn't scale up to #1 option volume for a sustained period. He averaged 14.0 FGA from 1990-2000, 14.2 from 1990-1998. Let's compare that to other perimeter players mentioned in this thread:

FGA per game by 90's Era Perimeter Player in Primes

Miller (90'-98'): 14.2
Drexler (88'-95'): 18.0
Pippen (91'-98'): 16.2 (17.4 as #1 option)
Penny (95'-97'): 15.1 (15.9 as #1 option)
Hill (95'-00'): 16.4
Payton (94'-02'): 17.5
Wilkins (86'-94'): 22.3
Jordan (87'-96'): 23.9
Stockton (88'-96'): 10.8

So Miller is behind everyone, except Stockton, even guys who were #2 options for their teams (and comparable to some #3 options like Hornacek). He didn't get more usage because he didn't have the skills to get more shots. If he somehow took 18 or 20 a game, those would be poor quality and hence low efficiency shots. In today's game he would be taking 10 three's but that isn't what those extra shots would have been in the 90's.

BTW, as this list shows, Wilkins and Jordan were the only big perimeter scorers of that era. Everybody else is just agenda-driven hype who in the real world were scoring 20-21 (Drexler 23 for his prime).
I would be more inclined to agree with you if Reggie hadn’t increased his scoring load in the playoffs while maintains elite efficiency. But he did.

TommyGriffin

05-24-2020, 11:01 AM

ISH's "in my day" old heads are the funniest. And the saddest.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 11:16 AM

The pacers played through and off Smits more than Miller people just can’t tell by totals. This is a fairly accurate example of how they used him:

https://youtu.be/HfQWVuOXvD4

He might get force fed the ball like Shaq or Hakeem....just in short bursts minutes wise so the total never added up. A lot of the plays ended with the option of Reggie coming open to shoot....or not coming I’m open and either he or someone else just dumps it down to Smits and watch him work.

Years of Reggie clips really throw people off far as how that offense was played. It was never Reggie and his helpers. It was a whole team looking to find smits for 25 minutes and Reggie picking spots and trying to get more aggressive in the 10 minutes or so he was there without smits.

Hes just totally forgotten these days.

You're not wrong here (other than Miller is better and more important than Smits).

He was a handful for the Knicks and went toe to toe with Pat, even if the numbers didn't match.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 11:18 AM

ISH's "in my day" old heads are the funniest. And the saddest.

Guys youre talking about are probably under 40.

When the IQ goes beyond 70 feel free to say hello.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 11:21 AM

I would be more inclined to agree with you if Reggie hadn’t increased his scoring load in the playoffs while maintains elite efficiency. But he did.

And his coaches saw that and didn't "realize" Miller should have been taking 17-18 shots (or more) per game all year long? What is the explanation for that? Brown and Bird were dummies and didn't realize what random fans with calculators 25 years later "knew"? You heard what Larry Brown said:

I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

In other words, Brown and later Bird knew he didn't have the skills of a real #1 option.

His highest scoring playoff "runs" were 3-4 game first round losses. His highest sustained run was 95' where he scored 25.5 on 17.1 FGA. So what? Elite shooters can get hot. Klay scored 24.3 in the 16' playoffs and no one ever talks about that.

Here is Miller's scoring by round in 95': 31.7 in the first round, 22.6 in the second round (same as Smits), 25.9 in the ECF. What did Reggie do in the pivotal ECF games?

Game 5 21 points on 16 shots (Orlando takes 3-2 lead)
Game 6 36 points on 19 shots (Indiana forces a Game 7)
Game 7 12 points on 13 shots (Orlando goes to the finals)

While I am there BTW, Penny scored 15, 11, 17 in these same games. Alpha, alpha, alpha scorer doe.

So Miller was very up and down, not surprising for a shooter. That is the problem. He couldn't have the consistency of legitimate #1 option scorers because of his limited skill set. What could Miller turn to when those shots weren't falling or he was having difficulty getting open?

TommyGriffin

05-24-2020, 11:22 AM

Guys youre talking about are probably under 40.

When the IQ goes beyond 70 feel free to say hello.

Clearly, it hit a chord.

I'm sure mid-life crisis isn't fun. I'm sorry, bud.

999Guy

05-24-2020, 11:25 AM

Smits was getting shots Miller couldn't take. He was a limited player, especially given how basketball was played in the 90's, he couldn't scale up to #1 option volume for a sustained period. He averaged 14.0 FGA from 1990-2000, 14.2 from 1990-1998. Let's compare that to other perimeter players mentioned in this thread:

FGA per game by 90's Era Perimeter Player in Primes

Miller (90'-98'): 14.2
Drexler (88'-95'): 18.0
Pippen (91'-98'): 16.2 (17.4 as #1 option)
Penny (95'-97'): 15.1 (15.9 as #1 option)
Hill (95'-00'): 16.4
Payton (94'-02'): 17.5
Wilkins (86'-94'): 22.3
Jordan (87'-96'): 23.9
Stockton (88'-96'): 10.8

So Miller is behind everyone, except Stockton, even guys who were #2 options for their teams (and comparable to some #3 options like Hornacek). He didn't get more usage because he didn't have the skills to get more shots. If he somehow took 18 or 20 a game, those would be poor quality and hence low efficiency shots. In today's game he would be taking 10 three's but that isn't what those extra shots would have been in the 90's.

BTW, as this list shows, Wilkins and Jordan were the only big perimeter scorers of that era. Everybody else is just agenda-driven hype who in the real world were scoring 20-21 (Drexler 23 for his prime).

All you are showing is how different his style of play is. Why does he need to be a shot jacker to be a better scorer than any one player?

Why is scoring just the measurement anyway.

I have never seen, in all my time in these discussion seen a guy use FGA to prove damn near anything profound.

And FGA don’t capture volume and usage. Reggie got to the line a lot.

Penny, Hill, Pippen, Payton, and most seasons of Drexler cannot fuxk with prime Reggie as a scorer.

By the way, I don’t know why his old man years(where he was still easily their best offensive player) is getting so much more attention.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 11:25 AM

Clearly, it hit a chord.

I'm sure mid-life crisis isn't fun. I'm sorry, bud.

Lol.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 11:35 AM

All you are showing is how different his style of play is. Why does he need to be a shot jacker to be a better scorer than any one player?

Why is scoring just the measurement anyway.

I have never seen, in all my time in these discussion seen a guy use FGA to prove damn near anything profound.

And FGA don’t capture volume and usage. Reggie got to the line a lot.

Penny, Hill, Pippen, Payton, and most seasons of Drexler cannot fuxk with prime Reggie as a scorer.

By the way, I don’t know why his old man years(where he was still easily their best offensive player) is getting so much more attention.

You can only be so good a scorer when you don’t actually score very much. He just didn’t. He shouldnt have been scoring much taking like 14 shots but the fact remains.....people tend to want to see points scored when the issue is scoring.

tpols

05-24-2020, 11:48 AM

im still dumbfounded this guy says a 24 ppg playoff scorer over 12 years and 100+ game sample size didnt score very much.

Was regularly top 10 in scoring for the whole league in the 90s finishing as high as 6th.

If reggie didnt score very much, basically nobody did outside like 5-8 guys in the whole world.

Imagine if you said the 6th leading rebounder in the league just didnt rebound very much. 12 boards per game... eh wasnt really rebounding.

:roll:

Do facts not exist anymore?

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

05-24-2020, 11:53 AM

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 11:57 AM

And FGA don’t capture volume and usage. Reggie got to the line a lot.

Let's check the usage then.

Usage for 90's Perimeter Stars

Miller (90'-98'): 23.5%
Drexler (88'-95'): 26.6
Pippen (91'-98'): 24.6 (27.1% in 94', 27.6% in 95' first half as #1 option)
Penny (95'-97'): 24.9 (25.7% as #1 option in 97')
Hill (95'-00'): 27.6%
Payton (94'-02'): 25.4%
Wilkins (86'-94'): 31.4%
Jordan (87'-96'): 33.8%
Stockton (88'-96'): 19.4%

This shouldn't surprise anyone who watched Reggie play. Forget that he was behind Pippen, Penny when they were #2 options. Miller often was #2 or #3 on his own team in usage...this "alpha, alpha" myth is agenda or nostalgia driven.

Duncan21formvp

05-24-2020, 12:03 PM

Magic Johnson

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 12:05 PM

By the way, I don’t know why his old man years(where he was still easily their best offensive player) is getting so much more attention.

Because his legacy is mainly derived from those 30+ years. His teams did not become contenders until he was 28 (94') and Larry Brown got there. KBlaze already explained how Brown told Miller he couldn't win as a "superstar" and had to be in an ensemble context. I guess Brown didn't have a calculator and didn't calculate if he scored 21 on 14 shots that meant he could score 42 on 28 shots, right?

Miller's game was not affected by aging the way other stars were because he was a shooter and didn't have the athletic skills that others lost as they aged.

Penny, Hill, Pippen, Payton, and most seasons of Drexler cannot fuxk with prime Reggie as a scorer.

You can only be so good a scorer when you don’t actually score very much. He just didn’t. He shouldnt have been scoring much taking like 14 shots but the fact remains.....people tend to want to see points scored when the issue is scoring.

Their argument is bizarre: Miller was this great scorer because he was so efficient on low volume but they ignore why his volume had to be so limited. The bottom line is "prime Reggie" was scoring 21 PPG.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 12:05 PM

Great coach, but I couldn't care less what Larry Brown "said".

Reggie was ahead of his time, playing the way guys do now. Just scrappier and vocal about it :lol

Offensive rating and True Efficiency aren't 'nerd' stats either. Its your raw totals added up. Elementary shit.

To be fair, as far as ORTG and TS% he said it was totals added up and just questioned the point, which I have to agree with a bit. I think you get a lot more out of reading the entire line than reading these stats. Allows one to be more discerning.

Agree on Reggie. Kblaze is making great Reggie points, as usual, but he's still failing to get that Reggie was a 23.5PPG playoff scorer for over a decade, getting far in the playoffs, and doing so without getting the ball.

He also averaged over 22 and 24 per game on playoff bound Pacer teams. Reggie is straight up a great player.

Would I take him over Mitch Richmond? Not sure. But I can't find Richmond greater than him over the haul, because Reggie showed that he raised his game. And I'd take him over Ray Allen.

Not Paul Pierce.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 12:07 PM

Reggie was 8th once in 1990 then between 12th and 20th the entire decade. Which is obviously very good. It just isn’t what you imagine from someone with people making them out to be a dominant scorer. He had one playoff run of 25 a game. Anything else at that level was a single losing first round series. A 41 point blowout loss playing 44 minutes does look good on a stat sheet I’m sure. You play 47 minutes in a loss...as a scorer you should score some good raw totals shouldn’t you? But the series was 3 games. Not exactly a display of the ability to score big on a regular basis. Just....massive minutes in a loss.

Reggie had his moments like everyone worth remembering. He just didn’t tend to score very much in them.

We talk about 35 point explosions when it’s Reggie. The kinda players worth gushing over from a scoring point of view? 35 points isn’t a game worth remembering.

And we aren’t really talking about a Hakeem or Mchale type who was unguardable due to an insane skill set that may not always show in totals. If you give Hakeem the ball he’s gonna show you why his scoring is so legendary. Give Reggie the ball....

The reputation is someone who can just turn it on and score when it’s needed. The results were a huge number of losses often while he failed to turn it on....because his game didn’t lend itself well to that. You can’t really get what he did best on command again and again.

You can draw up a play to get him one shot. But you can’t just rely on him to score over and over to win you something on a regular basis. He wasn’t that kinda scorer.

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 12:08 PM

I had an argument with a friend of mine the other day, it got heated and he still won't respond to my messages.

I said Sprewell was a better player than Manu.

I concede that Manu had more success, consistentcy and longevity in his career. Thus he is high up on people's all time lists.

But to say he is a BETTER player than Spree just doesn't stack up when you think about it.

After Jordan Retired, Spree took his spot in the All-NBA first team, in his second season in the league.

By the time he was actually reaching his prime he got suspended for a year and his team that was supposed to be a future power house was dismantled.

When he finally came back he lead his team to the finals as the number 1 option once Patrick Ewing's body finally gave up.

Manu ain't never do that...

Call your friend immediately, if he doesn't pick up leave a voice mail and apologize like your life depended on it. Sprewell was nothing more than an inefficient scorer who provided occasional good defense. Manu is a superior shooter, ball-handler, passer, finisher at the rim, & gives you intangibles that Sprewell could only dream of.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 12:14 PM

Reggie was 8th once in 1990 then between 12th and 20th the entire decade. Which is obviously very good. It just isn’t what you imagine from someone with people making them out to be a dominant scorer. He had one playoff run of 25 a game. Anything else at that level was a single losing first round series. A 41 point blowout loss playing 44 minutes does look good on a stat sheet I’m sure. You play 47 minutes in a loss...as a scorer you should score some good raw totals shouldn’t you? But the series was 3 games. Not exactly a display of the ability to score big on a regular basis. Just....massive minutes in a loss.

Reggie had his moments like everyone worth remembering. He just didn’t tend to score very much in them.

We talk about 35 point explosions when it’s Reggie. The kinda players worth gushing over from a scoring point of view? 35 points isn’t a game worth remembering.

And we aren’t really talking about a Hakeem or Mchale type who was unguardable due to an insane skill set that may not always show in totals. If you give Hakeem the ball he’s gonna show you why his scoring is so legendary. Give Reggie the ball....

The reputation is someone who can just turn it on and score at all. The results were a huge number of losses often while he failed to turn it on....because his game didn’t lend itself well to that. You can’t really get what he did best on command again and again.

You can draw up a play to get him one shot. But you can’t just rely on him to score over and over to win you something on a regular basis. He wasn’t that kinda scorer.

But no one said dominant scorer. But 23.5 is a legit number and within context of how he played and impact of his offense, I can see why he'd be below some guys, but I can't see how he isn't a genuinely great player.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 12:16 PM

Relative to a normal nba player of course he’s great. I’d have voted for Reggies hall of fame spot considering who was already in.

If the comparison is random nba player Harry Hardwood yes....Reggie was a great player. That’s not in question.

If the standard is all these other hall of famers being mentioned? That’s a whole other thing.

Whoah10115

05-24-2020, 12:20 PM

Is he that far behind Richmond?

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 12:26 PM

Well Mitch could play defense and dribble well enough to say...bring the ball up vs a bit of pressure. Much of the time Reggie literally wouldn’t dribble without turning his back to protect the ball. Total player wise it’s not very close...but we run into the problem of being better not necessarily making you more effective.

I wouldn’t take Reggie over Mitch. I’m a defense guy. But it’s one of those things where great players aren’t that different on the same court together even if one is superior technically.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 12:31 PM

If the standard is all these other hall of famers being mentioned? That’s a whole other thing.

Exactly. That is the issue. When he played he was being compared to guys like McKey, Hornacek, Hawkins, Reggie Lewis but now it is Pippen, Drexler, Payton, Stockton. That is a different bar.

Is he that far behind Richmond?

Look at all-NBA from that time among SG's (excluding MJ for obvious reasons):

1990: Drexler/Dumars 3rd team
1991: Drexler 2nd team, Dumars 3rd
1992: Drexler 1st
1993: Dumars 2nd, Petrovic 3rd
1994: Sprewell 1st, Richmond 2nd
1995: Richmond 2nd, Drexler/Miller 3rd
1996: Richmond/Miller 3rd
1997: Richmond 2nd
1998: Richmond/Miller 3rd
1999: Iverson 1st, Kobe 3rd

So Miller appears only three times, all from 1995-1998, and all being 3rd team appearances.

(The SG's are sparse because PG's were taking the lion's share of all-NBA slots.)

tpols

05-24-2020, 12:32 PM

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 12:39 PM

So long as you’re done talking about the eye test fine....because nobody watching basketball gave a half a **** about anything you just said at the time. Talking about David Robinson and Charles Barkley....

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 12:41 PM

Reggie Miller has scored more points in the playoffs than barkley, clyde, ewing, d-rob, and many more players from his era.

every single advanced stat to ever exist has his impact at like top 30 all time, and i dont think theyre lying in this case.

it's not like hes westbrooking it, his teammates only benefitted from his off ball presence.

Well, he retired at 39. Don't forget Indiana was still a championship contender/playoff team from '02-'05, Reggie by that point was past his prime, but still played a total of 40 playoff games during that span, scored over 500 points, but averaged 13 ppg during that time. Tony Parker is #9 in total playoff points in NBA history, nobody is call him an all-time great.

FKAri

05-24-2020, 12:50 PM

Those battles vs MJ and Spike Lee really have elevated Reggie's legacy. As a result he is much more well known than guys like Mitch, Drexler, and Penny.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 12:52 PM

every single advanced stat to ever exist has his impact at like top 30 all time

He lags behind the players he is being compared to here in that too. Highest career rank in a category in a season:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th
Wilkins: VORP 5th, PER 5th, Box plus/minus 7th, Win Shares 5th
Richmond: VORP 11th, PER 13th, Box plus/minus 19th, Win Shares 17th

So he is third to last in VORP, last in PER, second to last in BPM, and second to last in WS.

Tony Parker is #9 in total playoff points in NBA history, nobody is call him an all-time great.

Maybe in 20 years we will hear how Parker>Wade or something. :lol

Talking about David Robinson and Charles Barkley...

It is crazy. Miller could never do what they did at that volume.

Reggie Miller has scored more points in the playoffs than barkley, clyde, ewing, d-rob, and many more players from his era.e

He doesn't even win that despite playing so long.

Jordan 5,987
Shaq 5,250
Malone 4,761
Hakeem 3,755
Pippen 3,642
Worthy 3,022
Miller 2,972
Drexler 2,963
Barkley 2,833
Ewing 2,813
Stockton 2,436

tpols

05-24-2020, 12:52 PM

Well, he retired at 39. Don't forget Indiana was still a championship contender/playoff team from '02-'05, Reggie by that point was past his prime, but still played a total of 40 playoff games during that span, scored over 500 points, but averaged 13 ppg during that time. Tony Parker is #9 in total playoff points in NBA history, nobody is call him an all-time great.

Reggie averaged more ppg in the playoffs than barkley too prime for prime. on better efficiency with similar team success.

It's kind of mind blowing people are attacking reggie for his scoring... you could talk about his real weaknesses but you chose that?

I watched reggie miller a lot as a kid too so the eye test is there. He was still dropping 24 ppg in 2002.

3ball

05-24-2020, 12:53 PM

.
WS/48 at 5 attempts

Curry..... 0.104 (2010-2012)
Miller'.... 0.176 (career)

WS/48 at 8 attempts

Curry..... 0.229 (13-15')
Miller'.... no data available

WS/48 at 10-12 attempts

Curry..... 0.252 (16-20')
Miller'.... no data available

Miller had a higher rate of production at 5 attempts - this would continue at the modern era volume that Curry benefitted from later in his career

Miller's advanced stats aren't that far off from Curry's, especially when you consider his lower volume of the magic shot

tpols

05-24-2020, 12:55 PM

Tony parker was the 3rd option on his team while reggie was first. Parkers playoff efficiency is garbage too. There's really no comparison.

the way i see things, if you asked everybody what the casual sentiment was on iverson vs ray allen in 2001, most people would pick iverson by a lot.

But ray was simply the way better and more impactful player.

I dont give a shit what the masses said.... i can think for myself.

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 12:58 PM

Reggie averaged more ppg in the playoffs than barkley too prime for prime. on better efficiency with similar team success.

No he didn't. Barkley has a higher ppg in the playoffs. Prime for pime, Barkley from '88-'96 averaged 26 ppg on 51% shooting in postseason play, Reggie from '90-'00 averaged 23 ppg in the playoffs. Don't know where the hell you are getting your numbers.

tpols

05-24-2020, 01:02 PM

No he didn't. Barkley has a higher ppg in the playoffs. Prime for pime, Barkley from '88-'96 averaged 26 ppg on 51% shooting in postseason play, Reggie from '90-'00 averaged 23 ppg in the playoffs. Don't know where the hell you are getting your numbers.

i was looking at the 90s but youre right.

They are literally within 2 ppg of each other though.

I guess thats the difference between a superstar scorer and somebody who doesnt score very much.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 01:04 PM

Are we really comparing Miller to Barkley? :facepalm

Miller vs. Barkley

All-NBA: Barkley 11, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Barkley 5, Miller 0
MVP's: Barkley 1, Miller 0
Top 5 in MVP: Barkley 4, Miller 0
Top 10 in MVP: 9, Miller 0
All-star: Barkley 11, Miller 5

This guy was being compared to Hornacek, Hawkins, McKey around the same time Barkley was winning MVP over MJ and Hakeem...

tpols

05-24-2020, 01:06 PM

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 01:07 PM

Reggie averaged more ppg in the playoffs than barkley too prime for prime. on better efficiency with similar team success.

It's kind of mind blowing people are attacking reggie for his scoring... you could talk about his real weaknesses but you chose that?

I watched reggie miller a lot as a kid too so the eye test is there. He was still dropping 24 ppg in 2002.

The incredibly low standards he’s held to by even the people suggesting he was elite show that they know better.

None of the significant players we discuss here would get a drop of praise for 24 ppg in a 5 game losing playoff “run”.

Elite players get laughed at for going out early(or late for that matter) doing Reggie Miller shit. Reggie has it used as evidence he’s greater than people who were mocked for playing better than he ever did.

Almost all the people in discussion here would get made fun of for playing the normal Reggie level. That really says enough.

ELITEpower23

05-24-2020, 01:09 PM

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 01:15 PM

The incredibly low standards he’s held to by even the people suggesting he was elite show that they know better.

None of the significant players we discuss here would get a drop of praise for 24 ppg in a 5 game losing playoff “run”.

Elite players get laughed at for going out early(or late for that matter) doing Reggie Miller shit. Reggie has it used as evidence he’s greater than people who were mocked for playing better than he ever did.

Almost all the people in discussion here would get made fun of for playing the normal Reggie level. That really says enough.

Exactly. :lol :applause:

It's kind of mind blowing people are attacking reggie for his scoring... you could talk about his real weaknesses but you chose that?

That's because even his proponents concede he was a zero in every other facet of the game (unlike every other player being mentioned here, with the exception of Wilkins, who actually was a legitimately dominant scorer). The one thing that supposedly makes him this beast is his scoring, and he was a 21 PPG scorer in his prime who was a top 10 scorer for exactly one season of his career.

Monta Ellis MVP

05-24-2020, 01:16 PM

you arent that good at following along mate.

we're strictly talking under the scope of scoring with regards to barkley vs reggie in this specific conversation.

not even saying miller's better at it, but highlighting how what he produced was so close to charles, yet people call one a superstar and one not good.

All because one dribbles and one doesnt lmao.

Reggie was an offensive beast. His playoff career Ortg is 119. Michael Jordan’s is 118. We have learned that dribbling a lot and taking a lot of shot attempts is not usually good offense. Reggie was ahead of his time and his numbers show it.

tpols

05-24-2020, 01:23 PM

The incredibly low standards he’s held to by even the people suggesting he was elite show that they know better.

None of the significant players we discuss here would get a drop of praise for 24 ppg in a 5 game losing playoff “run”.

Elite players get laughed at for going out early(or late for that matter) doing Reggie Miller shit. Reggie has it used as evidence he’s greater than people who were mocked for playing better than he ever did.

Almost all the people in discussion here would get made fun of for playing the normal Reggie level. That really says enough.

He doesnt get hated on because he didnt do anything worth hating.

If he pulled a '04 Kobe or something, even I'd have to hate. As it is? There's nothing to hate on. The man simply balled out in the playoffs time and time again.

Nobody hated on Shaq for 2004. Even though his team was embarrassed. Because he wasnt the reason they lost.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 01:29 PM

He doesn’t get hated on because he’s not significant enough to get the kinda praise that creates hate. You never hear Mark Aguirre hated on....because guys on that level don’t too much matter to history. Hate doesn’t tend to thrive on Reggies level because over the top praise never makes it that far down.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 01:31 PM

Barkley is called a superstar because he was a superstar. He was the second or third best player in the league at his peak. He was a MVP. He was a top 5 player for half a dozen seasons and top 10 for several more.

Reggie? Arguably was never even top 10. He made three third team all-NBA and he is being compared to legitimate superstars 25 years later. :oldlol:

tpols

05-24-2020, 01:34 PM

Reggie was an offensive beast. His playoff career Ortg is 119. Michael Jordan’s is 118. We have learned that dribbling a lot and taking a lot of shot attempts is not usually good offense. Reggie was ahead of his time and his numbers show it.

i guarantee you there are a ton of people out there who would take like... allen iverson over reggie miller.

simply because he shot more.

Thats it.

Because Larry Brown had the same type of teams around iverson as he did miller, yet miller's teams won far, far more and reggie was so much better individually.

I also dont think 95% of fans look at anything but the ball though. Eyes are trained to follow the ball and only the ball. They dont look at the other action.

I think Bill Russell said it... 99% of the game is played without touching the ball.

Kblaze8855

05-24-2020, 01:57 PM

The pacers with Brown won 47, 52, 52, and 39 games. 31, 46, 49, 56, 43, and 48 in Philly. Pacers made 2 ecf, lost in a first round, and missed the playoffs. 76ers made the finals, lost in the second round three times, first round once, and missed the playoff that first year rebuilding from an 18 win team. Not what I’d call winning far far more.

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2002260425080092.jpg

Really should have got more than 48 win and a second round loss outta that squad huh?

Reggie had a solid to good team that just doesn’t stand out to people who weren’t there. In 95 they started 4 players who made all star teams and the youngest was 25 and the oldest 29. And they had another off the bench. All prime level very low end all stars. 3 of them bigs which is one reason they were so tough inside. And none of the 5 low end all stars in question were who the coach considered their best player.

They had depth just not star power by names.

tpols

05-24-2020, 02:03 PM

You're leaving out one hugely critical piece of information...

90s Pacers faced way better competition than 00s sixers.

Reggie had to go through MJ & Pippen dynasty Bulls, Ewing Riley Knicks, and Shaq Magic.

Not only did Iversons teams face way worse competition, they won less.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 02:11 PM

Pippen, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley, and now Iverson?

Nobody is drafting Miller over Iverson.

3ball

05-24-2020, 02:38 PM

Pippen, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley, and now Iverson?

Nobody is drafting Miller over Iverson.

Why can't you guys accept that Miller had a mini "curry" effect back then.. which is why he did pretty well and his stats are shockingly elite in key spots

Curry simply took more threes (10+), but his stats were much worse than Miller's in years where he took Miller's volume (5)

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 02:51 PM

Why can't you guys accept that Miller had a mini "curry" effect back then.. which is why he did pretty well and his stats are shockingly elite in key spots

Curry simply took more threes (10+), but his stats were much worse than Miller's in years where he took Miller's volume (5)

He's basically Klay Thompson without the defense.

Jordan96

05-24-2020, 02:53 PM

Probably some white guy

3ball

05-24-2020, 02:57 PM

He's basically Klay Thompson without the defense.

Miller was always taking on the top guy - MJ, Kobe, Penny

So his leadership, performance and stats against the best comp mirror a #1 option like Curry, not a more supplementary player and weaker scoring-skill of klay

tpols

05-24-2020, 02:58 PM

He's basically Klay Thompson without the defense.

playoff 120+ ORTG to klay's 107.

On signifigantly higher volume.

You guys need a new line lol.

Reggie was a rich man's alpha version of klay.

3ball

05-24-2020, 03:01 PM

playoff 120+ ORTG to 107.

Way lower volume.

You guys need a new line lol.

^^^ exactly

Miller was the top guy on his team - it was Miller vs. MJ, Kobe, Penny.. it was never Klay vs Kawhi or KD

So Miller's leadership, performance and stats against the best comp mirror a #1 option like Curry, not a more supplementary player and weaker scoring-skill of klay

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 03:01 PM

He's basically Klay Thompson without the defense.

Exactly and nobody is calling Klay a superstar. Miller was a one category contributor and no one thinks 20.8 PPG is Earth shattering--as many of these Miller "fans" have made clear in other threads.

The big thing we keep hearing for Miller is his efficiency on 14 shots. If he could score 21 on 14 shots why didn't his coaches ratchet up his volume? At that rate, he would score 27 on 18 shots and 30 on 20 shots. 27 would make him an elite scorer, 30 a potential scoring champion. It is because his coaches knew he couldn't scale up to that volume. If he took 20 shots those extra 6 would be on terrible efficiency.

As to the playoff talk, his big scoring playoff "runs" came on 44, 44, 31 (one game), 43, 38, 41 minutes per game. His prime per 36 average was 20.9 PPG in the regular season on 14.1 FGA, in the playoffs those numbers were 21.6 PPG on 15.0 FGA. The real change was he simply played more minutes in the playoffs.

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 03:04 PM

playoff 120+ ORTG to klay's 107.

On signifigantly higher volume.

You guys need a new line lol.

Reggie was a rich man's alpha version of klay.

Using ORTG for individual players is cancer.

'95 Drexler: 119 ORTG
'95 Hakeem: 110 ORTG

3ball

05-24-2020, 03:08 PM

Miller's efficiency on 14 shots.

Do you know what usage is?... It's volume... it's shot attempts + FT's + turnovers.... aka the amount a player finishes a possession ("uses" a possession)

Miller was using more possessions at FAR better efficiency per possession (ortg), so Klay isn't in Miller's class - Miller's playoff usage/ortg is 24.7 and121 compared to 22.5 and 107 for Klay... So not close

tpols

05-24-2020, 03:10 PM

Using ORTG for individual players is cancer.

'95 Drexler: 119 ORTG
'95 Hakeem: 110 ORTG

Nice cherrypick.

For their careers? Clyde and Hakeem have identical ORTG's in the playoffs.

Both way lower than Reggie.

They were better at a lot of things. Scoring wasnt one of them.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 03:10 PM

Using ORTG for individual players is cancer.

'95 Drexler: 119 ORTG
'95 Hakeem: 110 ORTG

:lol

On signifigantly higher volume.

Prime Playoff Numbers for Miller & Thompson

Klay 15'-19': 20.0 PPG on 16.6 FGA on 23.2% usage
Klay 15'-16': 21.6 PPG on 17.5 FGA on 25.8% usage (#2 option)
Miller 90'-00': 23.2 PPG on 16.1 FGA on 25.4% usage

Thompson as a #2 option was getting more volume than Miller, although that changed when he became a third option. Thompson is less efficient, but he has to worry about playing both ends of the floor, unlike Miller.

Thompson's numbers would look even better if he kept losing in the WCF like Miller. Thompson was 26.2 PPG on 20.2 FGA in the 16' playoffs before the finals.

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 03:12 PM

Miller was always taking on the top guy - MJ, Kobe, Penny

So his leadership, performance and stats against the best comp mirror a #1 option like Curry, not a more supplementary player and weaker scoring-skill of klay

Klay was guarding guys like Harden, Irving, Westbrook during his championship runs, 2 of those guys won MVPs. Don't know why you list Kobe for Reggie, Miller was way past his prime when Kobe developed.

Klay from the '16-'19 postseason: 20/4/2 on 57 TS%
Reggie from '94-'99 postseason: 22.5/3/2 on 59 TS%

Keep in mind Klay was a third option for many of those runs, and provided better defense. Reggie was the #1 option and even benefited from a shorter 3 point line in some of those years. I don't see much of a difference.

3ball

05-24-2020, 03:15 PM

Using ORTG for individual players is cancer.

'95 Drexler: 119 ORTG
'95 Hakeem: 110 ORTG

95' Hakeem... 35.9 usage
95' Drexler..... 23.5 usage

So Hakeem was using twice as many possessions

You have to look at ortg and usage otherwise both stats are useless..

The creators of usage say you must only compare ortg for players that have similar usage (size of role in offense)

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 03:16 PM

Nice cherrypick.

For their careers? Clyde and Hakeem have identical ORTG's in the playoffs.

Both way lower than Reggie.

They were better at a lot of things. Scoring wasnt one of them.

That right there should tell you how dumb that stat is. Danny Ainge had a higher ORTG than Bird in the '86 postseason, was he a better offensive player? GTFO with that trash stat.

tpols

05-24-2020, 03:21 PM

That right there should tell you how dumb that stat is. Danny Ainge had a higher ORTG than Bird in the '86 postseason, was he a better offensive player? GTFO with that trash stat.

We're comparing first options and 25 ppg stars in this thread.

You can find a million examples of role players doing 125+ ORTG's. With such minimal scoring volume and defensive attention, it happens all the time.

You're not very bright if thats the comparison you bring up... bird vs ainge... I need kblaze back to level the debate competition here.

Roundball_Rock

05-24-2020, 03:22 PM

Keep in mind Klay was a third option for many of those runs, and provided better defense. Reggie was the #1 option and even benefited from a shorter 3 point line in some of those years. I don't see much of a difference.

I forgot that in my earlier post. Here is how he did with the shorter line versus the real line in the playoffs:

Prime Miller with the WNBA line (18 games): 25.7 PPG
Prime Miller with the NBA line (88 games): 22.5 PPG

He got hurt in 96' and the Pacers missed the playoffs at 39-43 altogether in 97' but the 95' run to the ECF (which included two 7 game series) was with the WNBA line.

22.5 PPG is alpha, alpha scoring?

TommyGriffin

05-24-2020, 03:25 PM

Reggie's 3 point prowess getting exposed by the WNBA 3-point distance.

Too funny.

3ball

05-24-2020, 03:25 PM

That right there should tell you how dumb that stat is. Danny Ainge had a higher ORTG than Bird in the '86 postseason, was he a better offensive player? GTFO with that trash stat.

Only compare ortg for players that have similar usage (size of role in offense)

You have to look at ortg and usage together otherwise both stats are useless..

1987_Lakers

05-24-2020, 03:28 PM

We're comparing first options and 25 ppg stars in this thread.

You can find a million examples of role players doing 125+ ORTG's. With such minimal scoring volume and defensive attention, it happens all the time.

You're not very bright if thats the comparison you bring up... bird vs ainge... I need kblaze back to level the debate competition here.

It's a trash stat. If we went by ORTG then Miller would be a better offensive player than MJ, Lebron, Magic, Barkley, Durant etc.

The one who isn't bright is you for bringing up that stat in the first place.

tpols

05-24-2020, 03:30 PM

Only compare ortg for players that have similar usage (size of role in offense)

You have to look at ortg and usage together otherwise both stats are useless..

It amazes me how dumb people can be...

Shane Battier in the 2012 Finals had a 163 ORTG. He went nuts from 3. Lebron? only 117. Which is still very elite.

But obviously... Shane benefitted off Lebron's on ball action and was in a far smaller role facing less defensive attention.

So nobody would cherrypick that comparison.

These guys present their arguments on some "gotcha" shit... and all i can do is sigh. the flaws in their analogies are too openly dismissable.