LeBron vs Bird vs Magic - Whose PRIME was better? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

insidious301

07-03-2020, 12:12 PM

Regular-Season Numbers

1983-1991 Magic Johnson: 20 PPG, 13 AST, 7 REB, 2 STL on 52/31/86 splits
1981-1989 Larry Bird: 25 PPG, 7 AST, 10 REB, 2 STL on 50/37/89 splits
2009-2018 LeBron James: 27PPG, 8 AST, 8 REB, 2 STL on 53/35/75 splits

Same Years in the Playoffs

20 PPG, 13 AST, 7 REB, 2STL on 51/24/85 splits (Magic)
25 PPG, 7 AST, 11 REB, 2 STL on 48/35/89 splits (Bird)
29 PPG, 7 AST, 9 REB, 2 STL on 51/34/74 splits (LeBron)

Notable Awards, Honors and Championships during their primes

3 MVP, 1 FMVP, 9 All-NBA First Team, 3 Championships (Magic)
3 MVP, 2 FMVP, 8 All-NBA First team, 3 All-Defensive Second Team, 3 Championships (Bird)
4 MVP, 3 FMVP, 10, All-NBA First team, 6 All-Defensive Team -- 5 First Team/1 Second Team, 3 Championships (LeBron)

Other Stats, Misc Info

Prime Magic led the league in assists 4 of those 9 seasons (the other 5 seasons he was second). And led the league in Triple Doubles 7 of those 9 seasons. Prime Magic also holds the record for playoff assists (303 assists in 1988). The next 2-5 players? They're all Magic.

Prime Bird led the league in BPM for 4 straight years and was second the following two years in 1987 and 1988.

Prime LeBron led the league in PER 6 straight years and led the league in BPM 5 straight years. Prime Lebron also has the greatest single-season BPM (2009).

Conclusion

All three players were GREAT. Whose prime ranks BEST though?

SouBeachTalents

07-03-2020, 12:20 PM

LeBron
Bird
Magic

Carbine

07-03-2020, 12:31 PM

This would be a more interesting debate if it were PEAK.

Lebrons is the answer here though, no doubt.

tpols

07-03-2020, 12:32 PM

Bird is the best.

He's basically a super Dirk and we've already seen what happened there.

insidious301

07-03-2020, 12:34 PM

This would be a more interesting debate if it were PEAK.

Lebrons is the answer here though, no doubt.

Disagree. I believe their prime's are very close, just like their peaks. Your comment would make sense if this were a CAREER ranking,

Ghost1

07-03-2020, 12:42 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/52tKzRnM/2e1e1.png

insidious301

07-03-2020, 12:52 PM

Bird is the best.

He's basically a super Dirk and we've already seen what happened there.

A super Dirk? I like that.

If you're including defense and playmaking, I don't know if that's the most accurate comparison though. How close do you view Dirk and Lebron since you went with Bird here?

tpols

07-03-2020, 12:59 PM

A super Dirk? I like that.

If you're including defense and playmaking, I don't know if that's the most accurate comparison though. How close do you view Dirk and Lebron since you went with Bird here?

Yea basically Dirk + better passing and trash talk. A meaner, better version.

Dirk led two teams to the Finals through a brutal gauntlet with Jason Terry as his best help. One was last rank assists and the other was top ranked so he fits in any system. He's beaten H2H in the playoffs Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Durant ...superstar talent. I really think he could beat and/or hang with just about any superstar in history sans MJ or Bird, and even then he'd make it close.

Roundball_Rock

07-03-2020, 01:08 PM

LeBron
Bird
Magic

This, with the caveat that when we are talking this level of greatness we are splitting hairs in terms of prime play. Career wise, LeBron's longevity clearly separates him from the other two.

Shooter

07-03-2020, 01:17 PM

Wasn't Larry Bird outscored by his own teammate in three of his five Finals?! Including back to back Finals (1985 and 1986)?

#NoThanks

I know how much we value scoring around here.

LeBron
Magic
Bird

SouBeachTalents

07-03-2020, 01:19 PM

Carbine

07-03-2020, 01:23 PM

LeBrons prime really dates back to '06 though, not sure why we're cutting out three of his best seasons.

insidious301

07-03-2020, 01:27 PM

Yea basically Dirk + better passing and trash talk. A meaner, better version.

Dirk led two teams to the Finals through a brutal gauntlet with Jason Terry as his best help. One was last rank assists and the other was top ranked so he fits in any system. He's beaten H2H in the playoffs Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Durant ...superstar talent. I really think he could beat and/or hang with just about any superstar in history sans MJ or Bird, and even then he'd make it close.

You're right. Dirk faced really good competition and held his own. His matchups with Duncan were great. When you say sans Bird/Jordan though, you don't include Magic or Lebron in that discussion. Why? Not that I have a problem with that, but I also want to know your reasoning.

LeBrons prime really dates back to '06 though, not sure why we're cutting out three of his best seasons.

Some people don't believe that. You can include those years if it makes you feel better, but his prime years vary with certain posters.

2009 is the consensus though.

tpols

07-03-2020, 01:36 PM

You're right. Dirk faced really good competition and held his own. His matchups with Duncan were great. When you say sans Bird/Jordan though, you don't include Magic or Lebron in that discussion. Why? Not that I have a problem with that, but I also want to know your reasoning.

You could probably lump magic in there too. But I feel like MJ and Bird are the two GOAT's after watching and reading so much about all the best players. As far as Lebron goes... I mean... an end prime Dirk demolished him at his peak against incredible odds. Imagine if Dirk had Wade Bosh Mike Miller and Lebron had chandler kidd terry. Imagine if Dirk had manu and tony parker instead of josh howard and jason terry. And I like Terry man... he's awesome, but those guys his competition had as teammates were superstars. And he beat his contemporaries anyway. If the help was even? I think Dirk would beat Lebron handily, and we already have proof that he could because he did. It's not even a hypothetical.

Omar Johnson

07-03-2020, 01:44 PM

LeBron has the best then Magic then Bird

goozeman

07-03-2020, 01:56 PM

ArbitraryWater

07-03-2020, 01:58 PM

You could probably lump magic in there too. But I feel like MJ and Bird are the two GOAT's after watching and reading so much about all the best players. As far as Lebron goes... I mean... an end prime Dirk demolished him at his peak against incredible odds. Imagine if Dirk had Wade Bosh Mike Miller and Lebron had chandler kidd terry. Imagine if Dirk had manu and tony parker instead of josh howard and jason terry. And I like Terry man... he's awesome, but those guys his competition had as teammates were superstars. And he beat his contemporaries anyway. If the help was even? I think Dirk would beat Lebron handily, and we already have proof that he could because he did. It's not even a hypothetical.

Except we saw LeBron carry even worse teams to similar success as Dirk‘s, only unlike Dirk he didn‘t want that to be his whole career ending up with 1 ring or so in a year where it just opens up enough.

At a certain point you just have to look at what a player does / produces, and LeBron does everything more and better than Dirk.

And I love Dirk.

I mean Ewing is better than LeBron for you.

Shooter

07-03-2020, 02:01 PM

LeBron led his team in Finals scoring 8 times
Record
Dirk did this twice. Bird did this twice. Even MJ only did it 6 times.

#Next

1987_Lakers

07-03-2020, 02:06 PM

You could probably lump magic in there too. But I feel like MJ and Bird are the two GOAT's after watching and reading so much about all the best players. As far as Lebron goes... I mean... an end prime Dirk demolished him at his peak against incredible odds. Imagine if Dirk had Wade Bosh Mike Miller and Lebron had chandler kidd terry. Imagine if Dirk had manu and tony parker instead of josh howard and jason terry. And I like Terry man... he's awesome, but those guys his competition had as teammates were superstars. And he beat his contemporaries anyway. If the help was even? I think Dirk would beat Lebron handily, and we already have proof that he could because he did. It's not even a hypothetical.

I can nitpick as well, Dirk in '09 with Kidd, Terry, & Howard carried his team to a 50-32 record, LeBron the same year playing with less talented players led his team to 66 wins.

insidious301

07-03-2020, 02:47 PM

You could probably lump magic in there too. But I feel like MJ and Bird are the two GOAT's after watching and reading so much about all the best players. As far as Lebron goes... I mean... an end prime Dirk demolished him at his peak against incredible odds. Imagine if Dirk had Wade Bosh Mike Miller and Lebron had chandler kidd terry. Imagine if Dirk had manu and tony parker instead of josh howard and jason terry. And I like Terry man... he's awesome, but those guys his competition had as teammates were superstars. And he beat his contemporaries anyway. If the help was even? I think Dirk would beat Lebron handily, and we already have proof that he could because he did. It's not even a hypothetical.

Alright fair points. :applause: I also think prime Dirk gets undervalued.

insidious301

07-03-2020, 02:50 PM

Carbine

07-03-2020, 03:26 PM

As Kblaze mentioned yesterday, this Dirk thing is amazing.

He was not considered EVER as someone who could go "toe to toe" with anyone in history besides MJ and Bird while his prime was happening.

This was a guy, you have to remember, that was up 2-1 in the finals and then shot 36 percent for 21.7 PPG in three straight L's

The following year, he was MVP and got bounced in the first round by an 8th seed. These were his peak years and those are the type of performances he was giving on the big stage.... yet he can go toe to toe against anyone every not named Bird/MJ?

Bounced in the first round the following year. Again, these were his age 27, 28, 29 seasons. His peak stuff.

He was AWESOME in 2011, but again we have posters in this very thread saying he "demolished" the Heat or whatever........

He put up 26PPG on 41.5 Percent...... hardly what I'd call demolishing someone.

tpols

07-03-2020, 03:59 PM

Shooter

07-03-2020, 04:06 PM

LeBron led his team in Finals scoring 8 times

Record

Dirk did this twice.
Bird did this twice.
Magic did this twice.

LeBron is in his own tier.

Bird is with Magic and Dirk.

#Next

insidious301

07-03-2020, 04:12 PM

Dirk's '07 wasn't any worse than Lebron's '11, or Kobe's '04, or Magic's '84, or Kareem's whole 70's decade, or Shaq's record amount of sweeps, or Wilts abominable record vs his foe... etc.

At the end of the day, we SAW what happened when they faced off in this particular discussion. We saw it fellas... with two eyes.

What more do you want?

True. I don't agree with everything you wrote. Like not having LeBron in that tier. But you never said Dirk "demolished" the Heat. What you said is, he did so against LeBron. Dirk clearly outplayed him in that finals. Not sure why that is hard to grasp.

tpols

07-03-2020, 04:14 PM

True. I don't agree with everything you wrote. Like not having LeBron in that tier. But you never said Dirk "demolished" the Heat. What you said is, he did so against LeBron. Dirk clearly outplayed him in that finals. Not sure why that is hard to grasp.

it's a touchy subject around here mate. :cheers:

Uncle Drew

07-03-2020, 04:15 PM

LeBron
Bird
Magic

Yes.

mr4speed

07-03-2020, 04:30 PM

It's easily Magic. Magic's play transcended the game. Look at the playoff assist numbers. Magic had 2,346 playoff assists and the next closest is Stockton with 1,839. Magic dominated the game effortlessly. If he had wanted, he could have been a 30ppg scorer. Look at his true shooting in playoffs... 7th all-time.

All 3 are great players but I have to disagree with "easily Magic." Magic's playoff runs were in the weaker western conference and the assist is 100% dependent upon the other player scoring the basket. So all of Magic's assists were because of Magic and not the skill level of his LA teammates? Magic's true shooting in the playoffs also benefits from Magic for many years, not being the focal point of the opposing team's defense and getting lots of open looks and double teams thrown at Kareem = something that cannot be said about Bird and Lebron. When LA faced the East in the finals they won 5 times and lost 4 times and of the 51 games played, LA won 24 and lost 27 = only a 47% win %. The Magic "could have been a 30 ppg scorer" is a weak argument because he never came close to that scoring load and I think it would have been very costly to himself and his teammates. Let's look at what happened in 83 vs Sixers. Magic scored 19.0 ppg on 40.3% shooting and had 6 turnovers per game. And in 91 vs Bulls Magic scored 18.6 ppg on 43.1% shooting and had 4.4 turnovers per game. Both of these Finals show Magic (like any other player) as capable of playing poorly and being slowed down. For me, looking at the defensive talents, I have to put Lebron slightly over Bird and Bird over Magic, Magic's 3 point shooting also hurts in his comparison with these other two players.

warriorfan

07-03-2020, 04:31 PM

Bird

DoctorP

07-03-2020, 04:34 PM

I say Bird.

Apparently, it's Magic.

But it's probably Bran.

r0drig0lac

07-03-2020, 04:37 PM

LeBron
Bird
Magic

this

Whoah10115

07-03-2020, 04:44 PM

It's Magic and Bird. LeBron is top 5 at this point, but other two are better players. I don't care.

Also, Bird was hurt in 88/89 season, so how does it go from 81-89?

Roundball_Rock

07-03-2020, 05:12 PM

Dirk's '07 wasn't any worse than Lebron's '11, or Kobe's '04, or Magic's '84, or Kareem's whole 70's decade, or Shaq's record amount of sweeps, or Wilts abominable record vs his foe... etc.

Dirk 07' 20/11/3 on 51% TS (38% FG)--down from 25/9/3 on 61% in the regular season

Dirk was outscored by Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson, Josh Howard, and Jason Richardson came within 0.2 of outscoring Dirk too.

Kareem in the 70's 30/16/4 56% TS, versus 29/15/5 58% in the RS
Shaq (94'-99') 27/11/3 57% TS, versus 28/12/3 on 58% in the RS

This guy is comparing Dirk's 07' to these? :lol

tpols

07-03-2020, 05:19 PM

Dirk lost to a team of borderline all stars that were injured all year and came back just in the nick of time for the playoffs.

Their coach? The same guy that coached and raised Dirk in the NBA.

Dirk wasn't exploitable like Shaq. He wasn't a malcontent negative intangible team force like Kareem.

He was mother****ing Dirk Nowitzki. Exceptional fit. Pure clutch.

:rockon:

SouBeachTalents

07-03-2020, 05:27 PM

Carbine

07-03-2020, 05:39 PM

goozeman

07-03-2020, 06:02 PM

All 3 are great players but I have to disagree with "easily Magic." Magic's playoff runs were in the weaker western conference and the assist is 100% dependent upon the other player scoring the basket. So all of Magic's assists were because of Magic and not the skill level of his LA teammates? Magic's true shooting in the playoffs also benefits from Magic for many years, not being the focal point of the opposing team's defense and getting lots of open looks and double teams thrown at Kareem = something that cannot be said about Bird and Lebron. When LA faced the East in the finals they won 5 times and lost 4 times and of the 51 games played, LA won 24 and lost 27 = only a 47% win %. The Magic "could have been a 30 ppg scorer" is a weak argument because he never came close to that scoring load and I think it would have been very costly to himself and his teammates. Let's look at what happened in 83 vs Sixers. Magic scored 19.0 ppg on 40.3% shooting and had 6 turnovers per game. And in 91 vs Bulls Magic scored 18.6 ppg on 43.1% shooting and had 4.4 turnovers per game. Both of these Finals show Magic (like any other player) as capable of playing poorly and being slowed down. For me, looking at the defensive talents, I have to put Lebron slightly over Bird and Bird over Magic, Magic's 3 point shooting also hurts in his comparison with these other two players.

All fair points, but I say "easily" because Magic was forced to retire at age 31 still near his peak. His playoff assist number as it stands now will probably never be broken. Baseball has a lot of mystique with its records, and Magic's 2,346 assists is one basketball number that is DiMaggio-like in terms of cache. Now add another five healthy years to Magic's numbers, and suddenly we are in the Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes realm of disbelief of what is possible. Magic legitimately could have had 3,500 playoff assists and almost doubled up the next closest player. This is why I say Magic's play transcended the game. His numbers don't make sense when you try to put them in an ordinary context of even the very greatest players even we concede Magic played with great teammates. To me Magic is the greatest basketball genius to ever step on the court. Maybe not the greatest player all told, but still... the greatest player with a wink, if you know what I'm saying. Also, who knows... Add a few more healthy season and suddenly we might be talking six or even seven championships...

insidious301

07-03-2020, 06:09 PM

It's Magic and Bird. LeBron is top 5 at this point, but other two are better players. I don't care.

Interesting. Are Magic and Bird interchangable or is one specifically better? Also, why is LeBron not in that conversation?

Also, Bird was hurt in 88/89 season, so how does it go from 81-89?

What I included were the games before that injury. Like I told a poster on the last page, there are different opinions on a players prime. That is when they began and finished. To me, the best of Bird ended in the 80s. If you think he extended his prime post injury, and into the 1990 season? That's fine. He had a great bouneback year. It doesn't change much in the OP though.

insidious301

07-03-2020, 06:14 PM

All fair points, but I say "easily" because Magic was forced to retire at age 31 still near his peak. His playoff assist number as it stands now will probably never be broken. Baseball has a lot of mystique with its records, and Magic's 2,346 assists is one basketball number that is DiMaggio-like in terms of cache. Now add another five healthy years to Magic's numbers, and suddenly we are in the Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes realm of disbelief of what is possible. Magic legitimately could have had 3,500 playoff assists and almost doubled up the next closest player. This is why I say Magic's play transcended the game. His numbers don't make sense when you try to put them in an ordinary context of even the very greatest players even we concede Magic played with great teammates. To me Magic is the greatest basketball genius to ever step on the court. Maybe not the greatest player all told, but still... the greatest player with a wink, if you know what I'm saying. Also, who knows... Add a few more healthy season and suddenly we might be talking six or even seven championships...

:applause:

Another good post. Nuance like this is appreciated. I will conduct a tally when more people get a chance to comment.

Whoah10115

07-03-2020, 06:16 PM

Interesting. Are Magic and Bird interchangable or is one specifically better? Also, why is LeBron not in that conversation?

What I included were the games before that injury. Like I told a poster on the last page, there are different opinions on a players prime. That is when they began and finished. To me, the best of Bird ended in the 80s. If you think he extended his prime post injury, and into the 1990 season? That's fine. He had a great bouneback year. It doesn't change much in the OP though.

That 89-90 season was a more seasoned player. Put up career averages, but unlike 2nd 3peat Jordan he didn't modify his game just to preserve himself, but because he had to. I do think you can start his prime in 80 or even 79.

LeBron is great, but it's difficult to rank this era. So much catering. Everything is treated as winning or nothing, and it plays throughout the season. It's just so awkward.

I take Magic just ahead, but maybe that's preference. For me they're top 3 ever.

Lebron23

07-03-2020, 06:30 PM

LeBron James

insidious301

07-03-2020, 06:33 PM

That 89-90 season was a more seasoned player. Put up career averages, but unlike 2nd 3peat Jordan he didn't modify his game just to preserve himself, but because he had to. I do think you can start his prime in 80 or even 79.

LeBron is great, but it's difficult to rank this era. So much catering. Everything is treated as winning or nothing, and it plays throughout the season. It's just so awkward.

I take Magic just ahead, but maybe that's preference. For me they're top 3 ever.

Fair enough. Ranking LeBron is tough. I got him in that tier with Magic and Bird in their primes. If you asked me to put one over the other though? I would just make another topic like this lol.

Carbine

07-03-2020, 06:52 PM

Bird and Magic would tell you themselves LeBron was better. In fact I think they may have eluded to that many times over the last 10 years.

insidious301

07-03-2020, 07:02 PM

Bird and Magic would tell you themselves LeBron was better. In fact I think they may have eluded to that many times over the last 10 years.

Do you have references? I've never heard them say that.

Axe

07-03-2020, 07:22 PM

Lebron23

07-03-2020, 07:30 PM

Do you have references? I've never heard them say that.

Google it.

Lebron23

07-03-2020, 07:30 PM

So you're telling us that don nelson became Dirk's Achilles heel during that series...

Tpols is an idiot. And a history revisionist.

light

07-03-2020, 10:53 PM

Well LeBron is still in his prime.

In any case, LeBron is a better basketball player than Magic and Bird at any time. There's no other way to slice it.

jlip

07-03-2020, 11:03 PM

This, with the caveat that when we are talking this level of greatness we are splitting hairs in terms of prime play. Career wise, LeBron's longevity clearly separates him from the other two.

This.

insidious301

07-04-2020, 12:29 PM

Google it.

So you're that poster too? I've never heard, seen or claimed any of that. Its probably made up.

Post your reference.

insidious301

07-04-2020, 12:31 PM

Bird gets a lot of respect on this forum (4 votes for BEST prime). Magic has 2 so far but more than I thought he would have. Between those two and LeBron, its almost a pick'em at this point.

tpols

07-04-2020, 12:59 PM

I've been around long enough I remember a whack of threads titled "Dirk is a massive choker" and "Is Dirk or Romo the bigger choker in Dallas"

Things along those lines were posted routinely back in 07-09

Just because a lot of idiots said something doesnt make it true. It's statistical fact that Dirk is one of the best crunchtime and clutch players in NBA history.

Tony Romo has won 2 playoff games. and lost 4. Even as an Eagle fan though, I feel like he's underrated. He was way better than McNabb and Wentz. He was a damn good and smart QB. Football just has such little room for error... one **** up like he had and he gets that label.

SouBeachTalents

07-04-2020, 01:10 PM

Just because a lot of idiots said something doesnt make it true. It's statistical fact that Dirk is one of the best crunchtime and clutch players in NBA history.

Tony Romo has won 2 playoff games. and lost 4. Even as an Eagle fan though, I feel like he's underrated. He was way better than McNabb and Wentz. He was a damn good and smart QB. Football just has such little room for error... one **** up like he had and he gets that label.
Romo was a great QB, but his career was filled with December collapses and terrible performances in big games

tpols

07-04-2020, 01:13 PM

Hey Yo

07-04-2020, 02:20 PM

All fair points, but I say "easily" because Magic was forced to retire at age 31 still near his peak. His playoff assist number as it stands now will probably never be broken. Baseball has a lot of mystique with its records, and Magic's 2,346 assists is one basketball number that is DiMaggio-like in terms of cache. Now add another five healthy years to Magic's numbers, and suddenly we are in the Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes realm of disbelief of what is possible. Magic legitimately could have had 3,500 playoff assists and almost doubled up the next closest player. This is why I say Magic's play transcended the game. His numbers don't make sense when you try to put them in an ordinary context of even the very greatest players even we concede Magic played with great teammates. To me Magic is the greatest basketball genius to ever step on the court. Maybe not the greatest player all told, but still... the greatest player with a wink, if you know what I'm saying. Also, who knows... Add a few more healthy season and suddenly we might be talking six or even seven championships...
What about the defensive side of the court? I noticed you didn't mention anything about that when talking Magic.

It's safe to say that there is nothing to mention cause Magic barely attempted to play defense, just like basically the entire Western Conference back then.

If the thread was about "offensive" prime, then Magic has a great case between the 3, but since there's 2 ends of the court, Magic comes in 3rd in this thread.

Shooter

07-04-2020, 03:08 PM

i just looked it up because all i ever did was watch... Tony Romo also has some of the best clutch stats ever.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PdRmlGZpKv0/maxresdefault.jpg

sometimes perception doesn't match reality.

Same with Bron. Haters will say he 'isnt clutch' when he has more game winners than any player ever, most playoff points, greatest game 7 performer, and highest elimination game ppg of all time.

People will believe what they want.

Shooter

07-04-2020, 03:48 PM

You're gonna use that argument then rank Magic above Bird :oldlol:

Bird wasn't a play maker though, right?

Bird and Magic both led their team in Finals scoring twice. But Magic wasn't know to be a scorer whereas Bird was, and still both led equal times. Magic was an amazing playmaker on top of being a good scorer.

SouBeachTalents

07-04-2020, 04:19 PM

Bird wasn't a play maker though, right?

Bird and Magic both led their team in Finals scoring twice. But Magic wasn't know to be a scorer whereas Bird was, and still both led equal times. Magic was an amazing playmaker on top of being a good scorer.
True, Bird was never known for his playmaking

Lion's pride

07-04-2020, 04:35 PM

Shooter

07-04-2020, 04:56 PM

True, Bird was never known for his playmaking

At Magic or LeBron's level?

Roundball_Rock

07-04-2020, 05:12 PM

Dirk's reputation completely changed based on that playoff run (Harden, PG have the same opportunity) but he was frequently called out for being a poor playoff performer, etc. the same way Harden is today.

This guy is comparing a 67 win team losing to a 42 win team to stuff like Kareem and Shaq losing in the NBA finals while putting up numbers. :lol

Whoah10115

07-04-2020, 08:49 PM

Axe

07-04-2020, 08:52 PM

There is NOTHING, let me repeat that, NOTHING clutch about Magic Johnson and NOTHING he could do better than Bird...

Magic in the half court game was straight AZZ.

Most over rated top 10 player ever..
One thing that's remarkable about him is that he can play any position if desired. But he was very lucky to have been drafted into a stacked team like the lakers. Without him, I'm not sure if that team can even win five chips.

mr4speed

07-04-2020, 08:56 PM

True, Bird was never known for his playmaking

Um, I have to ask what is your definition of playmaking? If the definition is dribbling the ball upcourt or playing the point position, meaning handling the ball and directing the offense , then no, Bird was not a playmaker, as he played off-ball. But if we want to bring passing into the equation, then Bird was a playmaker as in creating opportunities for his teammates. Bird as early as 86 was viewed as the greatest passing forward to ever play, surpassing Rick Barry and as the greatest non-center to ever play, surpassing Oscar Robertson and was viewed as the game's greatest all around player. Bird's court vision and passing skills can be seen on many "you-tube" video's and the fact he played such a "non dominant" ball handling style means he was super efficient and made pin point passes, sometime in the blink of an eye.

Round Mound

07-04-2020, 09:28 PM

Um, I have to ask what is your definition of playmaking? If the definition is dribbling the ball upcourt or playing the point position, meaning handling the ball and directing the offense , then no, Bird was not a playmaker, as he played off-ball. But if we want to bring passing into the equation, then Bird was a playmaker as in creating opportunities for his teammates. Bird as early as 86 was viewed as the greatest passing forward to ever play, surpassing Rick Barry and as the greatest non-center to ever play, surpassing Oscar Robertson and was viewed as the game's greatest all around player. Bird's court vision and passing skills can be seen on many "you-tube" video's and the fact he played such a "non dominant" ball handling style means he was super efficient and made pin point passes, sometime in the blink of an eye.

Larry Bird is the GOAT Stationary Passer. He was also a scorer, one of the goat shooters, a great rebounder and a great team defender. He lacked speed and potence (he had quickness early in his career) but he sure maded up with hustle, hear, determination and was a cold blooded killer in clutch situations: be it shooting or making a big offensive or defensive play. He is the GOAT SF IMO and his best season was 85-86.

Shooter

07-04-2020, 11:34 PM

Larry Bird is the GOAT Stationary Passer. He was also a scorer, one of the goat shooters, a great rebounder and a great team defender. He lacked speed and potence (he had quickness early in his career) but he sure maded up with hustle, hear, determination and was a cold blooded killer in clutch situations: be it shooting or making a big offensive or defensive play. He is the GOAT SF IMO and his best season was 85-86.

He does NOTHING better than LeBron. Literally.

LeBron is a better passer, defender, scorer, rebounder, leader, clutch, higher IQ. Your mind is clouded.

Axe

07-04-2020, 11:50 PM

He does NOTHING better than LeBron. Literally.

LeBron is a better passer, defender, scorer, rebounder, leader, clutch, higher IQ. Your mind is clouded.
:oldlol:

Shooter

07-05-2020, 12:30 AM

:oldlol:

Am I wrong?

ronniec

07-05-2020, 01:52 AM

He does NOTHING better than LeBron. Literally.

LeBron is a better passer, defender, scorer, rebounder, leader, clutch, higher IQ. Your mind is clouded.

How the bleep Lebron is a better rebounder, passer, leader, clutch and has higher IQ??

86Celtics

07-05-2020, 02:16 AM

Am I wrong?

Spectacularly so. James is a better athlete, Bird was the better basketball player.

SATAN

07-05-2020, 04:20 AM

Imagine LeBron playing against plumbers and mechanics :oldlol:

40 point triple dubs his whole career

86Celtics

07-05-2020, 06:37 AM

Imagine LeBron playing against plumbers and mechanics :oldlol:

40 point triple dubs his whole career

Imagine James' fans not being trolls and morons.

Axe

07-05-2020, 06:43 AM

Am I wrong?
I just remembered that bran never led his original team to 60 wins during his first season in the league.

Shooter

07-05-2020, 12:27 PM

How the bleep Lebron is a better rebounder, passer, leader, clutch and has higher IQ??

Uhh? You might have a rebounding case, but that's about it. Might.

Clutch IQ, leader, and passing? GTFO

Clutch

•How many game winners does Bird have?
•What is his elimination game ppg?
•Game 7 stats?
Post them :lol

Passer
•Bye

Leader
•Bird had HOF talent his entire career, and only made 5 Finals and 2 FMVP
•LeBron made 9 Finals and has mpre FMVPs with 3.

Higher IQ
•Um, again, bye :lol

dbugz

07-05-2020, 12:32 PM

Huh? comparing bird and magic who are both on top 10 with a player's who isn't even on the top 10?

libron is on 11-15 goat list. kindly do respect the legends pls.

ArbitraryWater

07-05-2020, 01:00 PM

Um, I have to ask what is your definition of playmaking? If the definition is dribbling the ball upcourt or playing the point position, meaning handling the ball and directing the offense , then no, Bird was not a playmaker, as he played off-ball. But if we want to bring passing into the equation, then Bird was a playmaker as in creating opportunities for his teammates. Bird as early as 86 was viewed as the greatest passing forward to ever play, surpassing Rick Barry and as the greatest non-center to ever play, surpassing Oscar Robertson and was viewed as the game's greatest all around player. Bird's court vision and passing skills can be seen on many "you-tube" video's and the fact he played such a "non dominant" ball handling style means he was super efficient and made pin point passes, sometime in the blink of an eye.

he's being sarcastic

but yes, there is nothing Bird does better than LeBron

Shooter

07-05-2020, 01:12 PM

Huh? comparing bird and magic who are both on top 10 with a player's who isn't even on the top 10?

libron is on 11-15 goat list. kindly do respect the legends pls.

LeBron led his team in Finals scoring 8 times.

Bird and Magic led their teams in Finals scoring 4 times. Combined :lol

#Bye

ronniec

07-05-2020, 01:33 PM

Uhh? You might have a rebounding case, but that's about it. Might.

Clutch IQ, leader, and passing? GTFO

Clutch

•How many game winners does Bird have?
•What is his elimination game ppg?
•Game 7 stats?
Post them :lol

Passer
•Bye

Leader
•Bird had HOF talent his entire career, and only made 5 Finals and 2 FMVP
•LeBron made 9 Finals and has mpre FMVPs with 3.

Higher IQ
•Um, again, bye :lol

Talk about elimination game, how clutch is 3-9, huh???
HOF talent was built throughout the years, not team up with 2 all stars in their prime. For this alone Bird is miles ahead of LeBron.

In what way LeBron has higher basketball IQ??
Again, Lebron fans like to use quantity to replace "quality".
Number of assist has nothing to do with quality of passing.

Bye.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

07-05-2020, 01:37 PM

Lebron
Bird
Magic

All close. Bird's peak though is probably best of the group.

mr4speed

07-05-2020, 02:25 PM

he's being sarcastic

but yes, there is nothing Bird does better than LeBron

wow, I cannot believe how close-minded you can be. I guess rebounding and shooting are no longer a part of the game? Bye....

kawhileonard2

04-11-2021, 12:12 AM

Lebron
Bird
Magic

All close. Bird's peak though is probably best of the group.

Magic
Bird
Lebron

2much_knowledge

04-11-2021, 07:07 PM

Bird. He accomplished as much in his prime years healthy than most stars in their whole careers

kawhileonard2

04-15-2021, 10:44 PM

Bird. He accomplished as much in his prime years healthy than most stars in their whole careers

In what way? the 3 MVP's in a row?

TheCorporation

04-16-2021, 12:05 AM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

04-16-2021, 01:15 AM

Magic
Bird
Lebron

Not surprised with this reply. We know you don't really believe that though. You're only saying it because Bron gives you night terrors.

DoctorP

04-16-2021, 01:34 AM

the answer is Kong, right?

2much_knowledge

04-16-2021, 02:14 AM

In what way? the 3 MVP's in a row?

3 rings, 3 mvps, 2 finals mvps in a 7 season span with health. How many years and team switches took lebron to get there? 12?

Bird was on a fast paste. The back issue never happened, we wouldn't be having this debate. Len bias lived? And thats a wrap

Ainosterhaspie

04-16-2021, 02:34 AM

3 rings, 3 mvps, 2 finals mvps in a 7 season span with health. How many years and team switches took lebron to get there? 12?

Bird was on a fast paste. The back issue never happened, we wouldn't be having this debate. Len bias lived? And thats a wrap

LeBron did all that in a 7 year span (2010-16). Stretch it to 8 and he's got an extra MVP.

RRR3

04-16-2021, 02:46 AM

LeBron did all that in a 7 year span (2010-16). Stretch it to 8 and he's got an extra MVP.
:yaohappy:

LeBron haters are the dumbest people on earth

2much_knowledge

04-16-2021, 04:33 AM

LeBron did all that in a 7 year span (2010-16). Stretch it to 8 and he's got an extra MVP.

After 7 years of pro experience, switching teams 3 times. Not the same at all but it was a clever comeback ill give you that. Then i guess is a tie at worst

2much_knowledge

04-16-2021, 04:34 AM

:yaohappy:

LeBron haters are the dumbest people on earth

Don't lie to yourself. Either you live in a cave or you turn a blind eye to all the plain retarded threads lebron stans make every single day. Don't lie to yourself like that

aj1987

04-16-2021, 11:49 AM

After 7 years of pro experience, switching teams 3 times. Not the same at all but it was a clever comeback ill give you that. Then i guess is a tie at worst

You embarrassed yourself with your autism. Hold the L and move on, kid.

2much_knowledge

04-16-2021, 11:53 AM

You embarrassed yourself with your autism. Hold the L and move on, kid.

Your post are generally garbage. You have no imput, sorry

kawhileonard2

04-16-2021, 10:21 PM

Not surprised with this reply. We know you don't really believe that though. You're only saying it because Bron gives you night terrors.

How so? I beat the snot out of him in the postseason.

kawhileonard2

01-02-2022, 07:01 PM

Magic and Bird won for the franchises that drafted them and won 3+ titles for that franchise. Lebron formed superteams and still couldn't win that many for the franchise that drafted him despite having opportunity to play with Shaq and Ben Wallace and Carlos Boozer in Cleveland in the first stint.

John8204

01-02-2022, 08:33 PM

1. Bird - he's the GOAT if played 15 seasons at his prime level and Len Bias doesn't die
2. Lebron - I don't know when Lebron's "prime" really was his career is more a series of ebbs and flows but he carried bad teams to finals
3. Magic - I think Magic was really good for a long period of time but unlike Lebron and Bird I don't think he was ever the best player in the NBA

Full Court

01-02-2022, 09:47 PM

Bird.

The ONLY thing Lebron has over Bird is longevity.

Johnny32

01-02-2022, 10:19 PM

lol legoat's "prime" is going to last longer than the other two combined. there is no comparison.

kawhileonard2

01-02-2022, 10:41 PM

lol legoat's "prime" is going to last longer than the other two combined. there is no comparison.

Rule changes. Lebron couldn’t beat bigs. He lost to every legit big in his era even with hca

John8204

01-02-2022, 10:45 PM

Rule changes. Lebron couldn’t beat bigs. He lost to every legit big in his era even with hca

Well you can make that case for Jordan, Shaq, and Lebron...I don't know what legit bigs Lebron's really played against

1987_Lakers

01-02-2022, 11:06 PM

Peak play?

1. LeBron
2. Bird
3. Magic

kawhileonard2

01-02-2022, 11:16 PM

Well you can make that case for Jordan, Shaq, and Lebron...I don't know what legit bigs Lebron's really played against

Lebron lost to Ben Wallace, Dwight, Dirk, KG, Duncan and three of them all while having HCA.

John8204

01-03-2022, 12:35 AM

Lebron lost to Ben Wallace, Dwight, Dirk, KG, Duncan and three of them all while having HCA.

Wallace 2-1
Duncan 1-2
Dirk - 0-1
Garnett 2-2
Howard 0-1

I believe that's his series record with those guys...I don't think that sticks out to be as a clear problem for James. It's not like Jordan going 1-3 against Isiah or 0-6 in playoff games against Bird. KG and Duncan had much better teams, Dirk's team was roughly on the same level

kawhileonard2

01-03-2022, 12:38 AM

Wallace 2-1
Duncan 1-2
Dirk - 0-1
Garnett 2-2
Howard 0-1

I believe that's his series record with those guys...I don't think that sticks out to be as a clear problem for James. It's not like Jordan going 1-3 against Isiah or 0-6 in playoff games against Bird. KG and Duncan had much better teams, Dirk's team was roughly on the same level

Dirk was only allstar, Lebron had two others including a guy who beat Dirk head to head. Duncan team was old as dirt and was the underdog.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html (Dallas 7th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html (San Antonio 6th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 8th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_preseason_odds.html (Raptors 5th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)

TheCorporation

01-03-2022, 12:40 AM

kawhileonard2

01-03-2022, 12:42 AM

LeBron's 5-year peak from 2012 to 2016 is the greatest peak in NBA history

5x Finals
5x MVPs (3x FMVP, 2x MVP)
3x Strong rings (KD + Russ + Harden Thunder; Duncan, Parker, Kahwi Spurs; 73-win Curry, Klay, Dray, Iggy Warriors)

Unbeatable peak.

Um no, dude lost in the finals several times as the favorite despite having a stacked team

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html (Dallas 7th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html (San Antonio 6th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 8th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_preseason_odds.html (Raptors 5th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2

Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.

Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600

How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360

John8204

01-03-2022, 01:14 AM

Dirk was only allstar, Lebron had two others including a guy who beat Dirk head to head. Duncan team was old as dirt and was the underdog.

Dirk had Jason Kidd who was producing at a high level that year

Heat
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2011.html

Mavs
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html

Mavs were clearly the deeper teams, while Miami had 3 All-stars, Dirk had an all-time PG in Kidd (who had the most assts of either team) and former All-stars

Marion - 4 time all-star
Terry - 6th man of the year
Chandler - DPOY
Peja - 3 time all-star

Miami had the advantage amongst top five players but Dallas had the advantage with the top ten...it's why they won.

kawhileonard2

01-04-2022, 12:55 AM

Dirk had Jason Kidd who was producing at a high level that year

Heat
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2011.html

Mavs
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html

Mavs were clearly the deeper teams, while Miami had 3 All-stars, Dirk had an all-time PG in Kidd (who had the most assts of either team) and former All-stars

Marion - 4 time all-star
Terry - 6th man of the year
Chandler - DPOY
Peja - 3 time all-star

Miami had the advantage amongst top five players but Dallas had the advantage with the top ten...it's why they won.
Heat were way better they were 1st while Mavs were 7th

ELITEpower23

01-04-2022, 07:17 AM

TheGoatest

01-04-2022, 09:50 AM

LeBron has:

The single greatest season of all time. :applause:
The greatest 5 season stretch of all time. :eek:
The greatest career of all time. :bowdown:

John8204

01-04-2022, 08:15 PM

Heat were way better they were 1st while Mavs were 7th

Seeding wise?

Miami was 2 (58-24)
Dallas was 3 (57-25)

Baller789

01-04-2022, 11:22 PM

LeBron has:

The single greatest season of all time. :applause:
The greatest 5 season stretch of all time. :eek:
The greatest career of all time. :bowdown:

Greatest -86 tho.

kawhileonard2

01-04-2022, 11:26 PM

Seeding wise?

Miami was 2 (58-24)
Dallas was 3 (57-25)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html

Team Odds W-L O/U Result
Miami Heat +175 64.5 58-24 (under)
Los Angeles Lakers +250 56.5 57-25 (over)
Boston Celtics +1000 52.5 56-26 (over)
Orlando Magic +1000 54.5 52-30 (under)
Chicago Bulls +1400 46.5 62-20 (over)
Oklahoma City Thunder +1600 51.5 55-27 (over)
Dallas Mavericks +2000 49.5 57-25 (over)

John8204

01-05-2022, 12:17 AM

So rather than judging a team based on record or seeding or roster you are going based on betting....

You do know preseason betting lines are just a mathematical algorithm right?

kawhileonard2

01-05-2022, 12:43 AM

So rather than judging a team based on record or seeding or roster you are going based on betting....

You do know preseason betting lines are just a mathematical algorithm right?
Miami was #1 in SRS and Dallas # 8 in SRS. You got something else?

John8204

01-05-2022, 01:10 AM

Miami was #1 in SRS and Dallas # 8 in SRS. You got something else?

And was 2-7

Kobe's Lakers
Duncan's Spurs
Carmello's Nuggets
5 HOF Celtic team

What does preseason have to do with what actually happened during the season...seems thin to me

imdaman99

01-05-2022, 01:34 AM

Lebron
Bird
Magic

Lebron's longevity is something we have never seen before... maybe Tom Brady? But he doesn't get touched and only plays 1 side of the ball

aj1987

01-05-2022, 04:43 AM

Bird.

The ONLY thing Lebron has over Bird is longevity.

Imagine what this autistic turd muncher would be saying if LeBron averaged 15 PPG on 40% and won a Finals. Not to mention giving up the FMVP to his teammate. :roll: :roll:

Going back to the OP. It's been said before, but LeBron from '09-'16, in a 6 year span had 4 MVP's, 3 FMVP's, 6x All-Def, and 8x All-NBA. That's quite easily better than Bird. Bird legit has ZERO argument over LeBron.

coastalmarker99

01-05-2022, 04:58 AM

Imagine what this autistic turd muncher would be saying if LeBron averaged 15 PPG on 40% and won a Finals. Not to mention giving up the FMVP to his teammate. :roll: :roll:

Going back to the OP. It's been said before, but LeBron from '09-'16, in a 6 year span had 4 MVP's, 3 FMVP's, 6x All-Def, and 8x All-NBA. That's quite easily better than Bird. Bird legit has ZERO argument over LeBron.

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowadays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game.

His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He had an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs.

He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%.

His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals.

His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7.

Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .57.7 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again.

His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .53.4. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting.

In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.35.1) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.

So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER.

In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played.

Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of 50.5 TS% (80-83) and a 52.5 TS% span (88-92).

In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA.
Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his career.

Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career 45.5 in his five finals.

In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven finals game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

bizil

01-05-2022, 04:00 PM

I always thought Bron, Bird, and Magic were the BRIDGE between the perimeter and big man positions. All three had PF type size. But their skillsets and overall versatility were made for the perimeter. For me, Magic as the best floor general of the three. Bird the best scorer of the three. And Bron the best defender and most athletic. And had the best positional versatility two way wise. All three had the great blends of alpha dog scoring and all around ability in their own ways. I gotta go with Bron though in terms of who had the best prime.

He's the closest we've seen to a freak athletic Hulk version of Magic. Can play all the positions on offense. And Bron's defense (especially in his early prime and peak) enabled him to ALSO defend four at times five positions effectively. His offensive mindset (27-30 PPG and triple double shit while being a pass first player) is the most similar to Oscar. This formula is the key reason why he's been able to age so great.

ELITEpower23

01-05-2022, 04:11 PM

Greatest -86 tho.

*-87 for Jordan's 1-9 run :oldlol:

-87 in 10 games :roll:

LeCola

01-05-2022, 05:44 PM

Bird > Magic > Lebron

kawhileonard2

01-09-2022, 09:24 PM

Bird > Magic > Lebron

Magic > Bird > Lebron

kawhileonard2

01-18-2022, 11:49 PM

Magic or Bird with current Lakers would be the top seed.

La Frescobaldi

01-19-2022, 12:45 AM

Same with Bron. Haters will say he 'isnt clutch' when he has more game winners than any player ever, most playoff points, greatest game 7 performer, and highest elimination game ppg of all time.

People will believe what they want.

Sam Jones had more than twice as many game winners

Lebron23

01-19-2022, 01:48 AM

LeBron, Magic and Bird

kawhileonard2

01-19-2022, 11:10 PM

Sam Jones had more than twice as many game winners

Wow really???

kawhileonard2

06-12-2022, 08:10 PM

LeBron, Magic and Bird

how so when Magic and Bird won more for the franchises that drafted them?

kawhileonard2

09-24-2022, 10:09 PM

Magic or Bird with current Lakers would be the top seed.

This!

Round Mound

09-25-2022, 12:01 AM

1-Bird
2-Lebron
3-Magic

kawhileonard2

10-07-2022, 12:38 AM

1-Bird
2-Lebron
3-Magic

Not a bad take.

Pointguard

10-07-2022, 10:16 PM

Lebron's consistency and health is nuts. At some point when a guy has two good years to a comparators one you have to get credit for it. Lebrons long career without experienced coachs levels at 27ppg, 7.5rebs and 7.4 asst with over 50% shooting is amazing because he could of had those numbers all 19 years. Bird only has 4 seasons above 25ppg. Lebron only has 1 season (rookie) below 25 ppg. The playoffs have a similar disparity. I had Magic as the 2nd best player for a long time but not anymore. Lebron's prime is twice as long at had a signicantly higher production.

Full Court

10-07-2022, 10:21 PM

There was a point where Bird was the clear-cut best player in the league. You can't say that for Lebron or Magic.

ShawkFactory

10-07-2022, 10:31 PM

There was a point where Bird was the clear-cut best player in the league. You can't say that for Lebron or Magic.

Yes you can.

RRR3

10-07-2022, 10:35 PM

There was a point where Bird was the clear-cut best player in the league. You can't say that for Lebron or Magic.
Jesus Christ you are retarded.

Jud

10-07-2022, 10:42 PM

There was a point where Bird was the clear-cut best player in the league. You can't say that for Lebron or Magic.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeSdwnTXkAAGO23?format=jpg&name=medium

SouBeachTalents

10-07-2022, 10:44 PM

There was a point where Bird was the clear-cut best player in the league. You can't say that for Lebron or Magic.
You don't even believe the shit you say :lol It's just Skip Bayless level trolling. It's the kind of thing that kawhileonard poster would say.

Full Court

10-07-2022, 10:48 PM

You don't even believe the shit you say :lol It's just Skip Bayless level trolling. It's the kind of thing that kawhileonard poster would say.

Truth hurts. You're the one who's bought into the media hype.

Jud

10-07-2022, 10:50 PM

Truth hurts. You're the one who's bought into the media hype.

There was no truth to your statement. It was just one big dumbass opinion

Full Court

10-07-2022, 10:57 PM

There was no truth to your statement. It was just one big dumbass opinion

What's your disagreement? About Bird being the best in the league, or about Magic or Lebron not being the best?

Bird was the best in the league until Jordan took over.

Lebron's had to share best in the league with Duncan, Kawhi, Durant, Curry, Giannis, etc.

This shouldn't be difficult to comprehend.

Full Court

10-07-2022, 10:58 PM

Jesus Christ you are retarded.

Typical response of a low-IQ moron who doesn't have a counter-argument. :confusedshrug:

1987_Lakers

10-07-2022, 11:01 PM

There was a point where Bird was the clear-cut best player in the league. You can't say that for Lebron or Magic.

I would love to hear an argument to who was better than LeBron in say...2012.

RRR3

10-07-2022, 11:01 PM

What's your disagreement? About Bird being the best in the league, or about Magic or Lebron not being the best?

Bird was the best in the league until Jordan took over.

Lebron's had to share best in the league with Duncan, Kawhi, Durant, Curry, Giannis, etc.

This shouldn't be difficult to comprehend.
LeBron was unquestionably the best player in 2012 and 2013 not a single person would deny that.

Jud

10-07-2022, 11:04 PM

What's your disagreement? About Bird being the best in the league, or about Magic or Lebron not being the best?

Bird was the best in the league until Jordan took over.

Lebron's had to share best in the league with Duncan, Kawhi, Durant, Curry, Giannis, etc.

This shouldn't be difficult to comprehend.

You said there was no clear-cut year where LeBron was the best player in the league. Were you born in 2014? LeBron was easily the best player in 2012 and 2013. You can even say that he was the best player in the league from 2010 to 2018

1987_Lakers

10-07-2022, 11:05 PM

Lebron's had to share best in the league with Duncan,

So Duncan was on LeBron's level in 2009 & 2010? lol

Axe

10-07-2022, 11:05 PM

Looks like giannis was already the best player in the league during years 2012 and 2013 despite starting only playing 9 seasons ago. :oldlol:

RRR3

10-07-2022, 11:08 PM

You said there was no clear-cut year where LeBron was the best player in the league. Were you born in 2014? LeBron was easily the best player in 2012 and 2013. You can even say that he was the best player in the league from 2010 to 2018
I think LeBron was without question the best from 09-13 personally. People who disagree are usually stans or coping. He has great arguments from 14-18 and 2020 too.

Lakers Legend#32

10-08-2022, 12:17 AM

Nobody was better than Magic.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 04:29 PM

So Duncan was on LeBron's level in 2009 & 2010? lol

I swear you pretend to be dumb lol.

Lebron was around before 2009. I listed players to cover his entire career.

WhiteKyrie

10-08-2022, 04:33 PM

Nobody was better than Magic.

Bird his own peer was for a time, obviously. And Jordan definitely was, and dog walked him in the 91 Finals.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 04:40 PM

I swear you pretend to be dumb lol.

Lebron was around before 2009. I listed players to cover his entire career.

So who was around LeBron's level in 2009? You didn't mention Kobe so I assumed you thought Duncan was on his level.

Also want to hear who was on LeBrons level in 2012 and 2013.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 04:45 PM

. I listed players to cover his entire career.

So KD was better than or on LeBron's level in 2009, got it.

:roll:

Chick Stern

10-08-2022, 04:47 PM

Nobody was better than Magic.

He spent 75% of his career in the Finals.
Nobody has EVER achieved what he did in the last game of his rookie year.
In head-to-head Finals competition, Bird only beat Magic ONCE.

mr4speed

10-08-2022, 06:25 PM

He spent 75% of his career in the Finals.
Nobody has EVER achieved what he did in the last game of his rookie year.
In head-to-head Finals competition, Bird only beat Magic ONCE.

The western conference in the 80's was not as strong as the East = see Dave Heeren's "Basketball Abstract" Chapter 11 titled NBA Beast = all teams included in head to head competition, the East dominated the west for every single year for all 10 years for the decade of the 80's. Magic was tremendous in game 6 but Magic also set an NBA record for turnovers in 6 games at 30 turnovers in that finals series. Kareem was actually voted the FMVP AFTER Magic's game 6 but because Kareem was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. See "Kareem" pages 140-141 for details. Magic was also never selected to an all defense team his entire career and as a rookie needed special coaching on defense as the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA, See Magic's book "My Life" pages 100-101 for his explanation.
Who's prime was better? IMO it would be Bird, then Lebron, then Magic.

ShawkFactory

10-08-2022, 06:39 PM

I swear you pretend to be dumb lol.

Lebron was around before 2009. I listed players to cover his entire career.

I’m mad at myself for even entertaining this but..

..you’re saying that you think Bird was more definitively the best player in the league in 86 let’s say than Bron in 2012?

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:11 PM

Full Retard scampered away after getting caught being braindead again

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:15 PM

So who was around LeBron's level in 2009? You didn't mention Kobe so I assumed you thought Duncan was on his level.

Also want to hear who was on LeBrons level in 2012 and 2013.

Did you not see the "etc," I noted, which means I didn't type out an exhaustive list?

So yes, I didn't mention Kobe, Wade, Derrick Rose, and others. Now I know you're going to stamp your feet about that one and say Lebron was better than all those, but it's arguable. And we know your judgment is in question anyway by your egregious underrating of Wilt.

And since you specifically called out 2009, Wade was better than Lebron that year.

'12 and '13 Durant was arguably better, or at least on Lebron's level. You can make the case that Lebron was better, but like I said, he was never the clear-cut best.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:17 PM

Did you not see the "etc," I noted, which means I didn't type out an exhaustive list?

So yes, I didn't mention Kobe, Wade, Derrick Rose, and others. Now I know you're going to stamp your feet about that one and say Lebron was better than all those, but it's arguable. And we know your judgment is in question anyway by your egregious underrating of Wilt.

And since you specifically called out 2009, Wade was better than Lebron that year.

Who was better than LeBron in 2012 and 2013?

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:18 PM

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:19 PM

I’m mad at myself for even entertaining this but..

..you’re saying that you think Bird was more definitively the best player in the league in 86 let’s say than Bron in 2012?

It's dumb, both players were obviously the league's best player in '86 & 2012. Full court saying otherwise just shows he doesn't know much.

Even in 2009 despite Wade having a great season, most considered LeBron to be a better player.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:21 PM

It's dumb, both players were obviously the league's best player in '86 & 2012. Full court saying otherwise just shows he doesn't know much.

Even in 2009 despite Wade having a great season, most considered LeBron to be a better player.
Wade was great in 2009 but impact data clearly shows LeBron was without question the best that year.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:21 PM

Full Retard scampered away after getting caught being braindead again

Whiniest poster in ISH. :lol

:lebroncry:

This has to be the same guy as Beezleblubber. Not sure it's possible for two people to cry so much.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:21 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll:

When was Derrick Rose ever close to LeBron you absolute doorknob? :facepalm

2011, you triggered basket case. :lol

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:22 PM

Wade was great in 2009 but impact data clearly shows LeBron was without question the best that year.

Ohhhhhhhh, so your precious "impact data" tells the full story. :roll: That's the refuge of the low IQ person.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:22 PM

2011, you triggered basket case. :lol
You have to be one of the stupidest posters in ISH history. No wonder you and Axe are best friends.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:24 PM

You have to be one of the stupidest posters in ISH history. No wonder you and Axe are best friends.

You have yet to put up an intelligent argument against anything I say. Because you can't. That makes you very angry, doesn't it. :roll:

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:25 PM

2011, you triggered basket case. :lol

Nobody considered Rose a better player in 2011 just like nobody considered Nash a better player than Kobe in 2006. I was there, Rose won MVP because his team won 62 games, most of those games were won because of their defense, something Rose wasn't known for. They basically gave the award to the best player on the best team which happens alot.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:25 PM

You have yet to put up an intelligent argument against anything I say. Because you can't. That makes you very angry, doesn't it. :roll:
When have you made an intelligent argument? Rose versus LeBron isn't even worth addressing it's so nonsensical. You still haven't told us who was arguably better than LeBron in 2012 or 2013.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:26 PM

When have you made an intelligent argument? Rose versus LeBron isn't even worth addressing it's so nonsensical. You still haven't told us who was arguably better than LeBron in 2012 or 2013.

I certainly did. You should learn to read.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:26 PM

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:29 PM

This is what I'm waiting for.

Can you not read either?

I posted it back on the previous page.

:biggums:

And in addition to Rose, you could make a case for Dwight Howard over Lebron in 2011 as well.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:30 PM

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:32 PM

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:33 PM

2012 RPM

LeBron 6.88
Durant 4.07

RAPM

LeBron 3.48
Durant 2.45

LeBron also beat him pretty easily in the finals with pretty evenly matched supporting casts.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:34 PM

I'm guessing he thinks KD was that guy from 2012 & 2013.

By that logic, I could easily say Hakeem & Magic were better than or on Bird's level in '86.

Nobody believes it, but lets just say dumb shit.
KD wasn't a good defender in 2012 and he hadn't learned how to playmake yet. Saying he was equal or better than absolute peak LeBron who was all-time great at both defense and playmaking makes absolutely no sense.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:37 PM

KD wasn't a good defender in 2012 and he hadn't learned how to playmake yet. Saying he was equal or better than absolute peak LeBron who was all-time great at both defense and playmaking makes absolutely no sense.

The funny thing is '86 Hakeem was obviously a more impactful defender than Bird. But nobody is saying he was as good as Bird in that particular year.

You could make a better case for '86 Hakeem > Bird than '12 Durant > '12 LeBron.

During 2012, LeBron was so ahead of KD on many aspects of the game.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:37 PM

2012 RPM

LeBron 6.88
Durant 4.07

RAPM

LeBron 3.48
Durant 2.45

LeBron also beat him pretty easily in the finals with pretty evenly matched supporting casts.

KD wasn't a good defender in 2012 and he hadn't learned how to playmake yet. Saying he was equal or better than absolute peak LeBron who was all-time great at both defense and playmaking makes absolutely no sense.

:roll: Supporting casts weren't even CLOSE to even.

Lebron was a better defender, KD was a better scorer.

You can make a case for Lebron, but once again, it's. not. clear. cut.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:39 PM

The funny thing is '86 Hakeem was obviously a more impactful defender than Bird. But nobody is saying he was as good as Bird in that particular year.

You could make a better case for '86 Hakeem > Bird than '12 Durant > '12 LeBron.

During 2012, LeBron was so ahead of KD on many aspects of the game.
Yeah that's before Durant added more to his game. Mario Chalmers was destroying him in the finals FFS. Chalmers was a nice role player but you're probably not a good defender if you're making him look like a star in a finals game.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:39 PM

:roll: Supporting casts weren't even CLOSE to even.

Lebron was a better defender, KD was a better scorer.

You can make a case for Lebron, but once again, it's. not. clear. cut.

Hakeem was a better defender than Bird, by alot. Hakeem also averaged more points than Bird during the '86 postseason.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:41 PM

The funny thing is '86 Hakeem was obviously a more impactful defender than Bird. But nobody is saying he was as good as Bird in that particular year.

You could make a better case for '86 Hakeem > Bird than '12 Durant > '12 LeBron.

During 2012, LeBron was so ahead of KD on many aspects of the game.

KD was the more talented scorer. Lebron was more of a brute force player on offense. Brute force works, but KD was not only the more polished, but the better scorer. As you can see by your precious stats.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:41 PM

:roll: Supporting casts weren't even CLOSE to even.

Lebron was a better defender, KD was a better scorer.

You can make a case for Lebron, but once again, it's. not. clear. cut.
Uh, yeah they were, you being mad about it doesn't change reality. Wade was better than WB, but Harden was better than Bosh and Ibaka was better than Chalmers. LeBron was so massively better at playmaking than KD in 2012 that any scoring difference is irrelevant as LeBron was clearly the superior offensive player overall. Hard to argue a guy who's worse at both sides of the ball was better.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:43 PM

Yeah that's before Durant added more to his game. Mario Chalmers was destroying him in the finals FFS. Chalmers was a nice role player but you're probably not a good defender if you're making him look like a star in a finals game.

And Lebron got destroyed by JJ Barea and Jason Terry the year before in the finals. What's your point?

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:43 PM

KD was the more talented scorer. Lebron was more of a brute force player on offense. Brute force works, but KD was not only the more polished, but the better scorer. As you can see by your precious stats.
LeBron led the playoffs in PPG in 2012. And he was so much better at playmaking than Durant that even if you give Durant the scoring edge LeBron clearly has a sizable advantage in overall offense.

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:44 PM

And Lebron got destroyed by JJ Barea and Jason Terry the year before in the finals. What's your point?
Resorting to trolling isn't helping your case.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:46 PM

KD was the more talented scorer. Lebron was more of a brute force player on offense. Brute force works, but KD was not only the more polished, but the better scorer. As you can see by your precious stats.

A better scorer? Yes, but you do realize LeBron had elite playmaking skills while KD didn't right? KD only outscored LeBron in the Finals by 2 points, but LeBron was dishing out 7 apg compared to Duran't 2 apg, not to mention LeBron was the better defender during that time.

Only a retard would think KD was on LeBron's level that year.

Let's see. '86 Finals.... Hakeem outscored Bird and was obviously a more impactful defender.

By your logic, how is KD on LeBron's level but then you are gonna turn around and say Bird was the clear cut best player? Your logic doesn't work.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:49 PM

LeBron led the playoffs in PPG in 2012. And he was so much better at playmaking than Durant that even if you give Durant the scoring edge LeBron clearly has a sizable advantage in overall offense.

A better scorer? Yes, but you do realize LeBron had elite playmaking skills while KD didn't right? KD only outscored LeBron in the Finals by 2 points, but LeBron was dishing out 7 apg compared to Duran't 2 apg, not to mention LeBron was the better defender during that time.

Only a retard would think KD was on LeBron's level that year.

Let's see. '86 Finals.... Hakeem outscored Bird and was obviously a more impactful defender.

By your logic, how is KD on LeBron's level but then you are gonna turn around and say Bird was the clear cut best player? Your logic doesn't work.

Was KD his team's playmaker? Or was it someone else?

If someone else, why would he be getting a bunch of assists?

RRR3

10-08-2022, 10:51 PM

Assists are largely irrelevant to the enormous playmaking gap that could easily be seen just by watching the two guys play in 2012.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:52 PM

Only a retard would think KD was on LeBron's level that year.

Clear sign you have no cogent argument. :lol

Let's see. '86 Finals.... Hakeem outscored Bird and was obviously a more impactful defender.

By your logic, how is KD on LeBron's level but then you are gonna turn around and say Bird was the clear cut best player? Your logic doesn't work.

All completely irrelevant. So you point out something unrelated about a SINGLE YEAR of Bird's career. :lol You're not even making this challenging.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:52 PM

Assists are largely irrelevant to the enormous playmaking gap that could easily be seen just by watching the two guys play in 2012.

I'm not going to argue that KD was a better playmaker than Lebron, because he wasn't. But he wasn't his team's playmaker, so it's a minor point.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:54 PM

Clear sign you have no cogent argument. :lol

All completely irrelevant. So you point out something unrelated about a SINGLE YEAR of Bird's career. :lol You're not even making this challenging.

A single year? '86 is the year many consider to be Bird's best year.

SouBeachTalents

10-08-2022, 10:56 PM

Bro, you guys are arguing with what's essentially Skip Bayless :lol Though tbh I don't even think Skip would try to argue LeBron wasn't the clear cut best player in the league in 2012 & 2013.

His entire argument hinges on scoring when LeBron led the playoffs in scoring in 2012, while Bird wasn't even top 5 in the '86 playoffs, and hell, didn't even lead his own team in scoring in the Finals.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 10:57 PM

A single year? '86 is the year many consider to be Bird's best year.

I would say Bird was the best in the league '85 - '88.

But are we shifting the debate to Bird now?

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 10:59 PM

RRR3

10-08-2022, 11:00 PM

I'm not going to argue that KD was a better playmaker than Lebron, because he wasn't. But he wasn't his team's playmaker, so it's a minor point.
How is it a minor point when we're arguing who was better at basketball? It's entirely debatable if KD was a better overall scorer than LeBron in 2012, and LeBron was a massively superior playmaker and defender. There isn't any argument for a guy who's worse at both sides of the ball. You'd have an easier time arguing Chris Paul over LeBron in 2012.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 11:01 PM

Dude, I'm convinced this guy believes what he says, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.

And you've only addressed KD so far. You haven't even talked about Lebron vs. Dwight Howard in 2012.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 11:02 PM

And you've only addressed KD so far. You haven't even talked about Lebron vs. Dwight Howard in 2012.

:roll:

Full Court

10-08-2022, 11:02 PM

How is it a minor point when we're arguing who was better at basketball? It's entirely debatable if KD was a better overall scorer than LeBron in 2012, and LeBron was a massively superior playmaker and defender. There isn't any argument for a guy who's worse at both sides of the ball. You'd have an easier time arguing Chris Paul over LeBron in 2012.

Chris Paul is another one I haven't mentioned yet. :lol

RRR3

10-08-2022, 11:02 PM

And you've only addressed KD so far. You haven't even talked about Lebron vs. Dwight Howard in 2012.
No one on earth thought Dwight was better than LeBron in 2012 :biggums:

Full Court

10-08-2022, 11:04 PM

:roll:

Funny, right? :lol

2012 Dwight Howard had the third highest defensive rating in the league. Led the league in rebounds, had 2.1 blocks per game and 1.5 steals. And still put up over 20 ppg.

You can make a best in the league case for him too.

Best on the defensive end of the court, and still a force on the offensive end.

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 11:05 PM

No one on earth thought Dwight was better than LeBron in 2012 :biggums:

Nah, he just admitted he was trolling.

Full Court

10-08-2022, 11:05 PM

No one on earth thought Dwight was better than LeBron in 2012 :biggums:

Oh? Are you sure????

Full Court

10-08-2022, 11:06 PM

Nah, he just admitted he was trolling.

Does this mean you're tapping out?

1987_Lakers

10-08-2022, 11:09 PM

Does this mean you're tapping out?

You bringing up Dwight and CP3 just confirmed to all of us you are trolling.

Maybe you were serious at first about KD, realized you were in a losing battle so began to troll as a way to escape this beatdown.

SouBeachTalents

10-08-2022, 11:20 PM

CP3? Dwight? Again, y'all are arguing with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=439&v=MaTytVDGbZg&feature=youtu.be

Axe

10-08-2022, 11:36 PM

:cry:
Says the wannabe jobless analchist who actually spends time having some honeymoon with that fatso Chewing. Hypocrite. :oldlol:

Full Court

10-09-2022, 09:18 AM

You bringing up Dwight and CP3 just confirmed to all of us you are trolling.

Maybe you were serious at first about KD, realized you were in a losing battle so began to troll as a way to escape this beatdown.

I wasn't the one who brought up CP3 lol. You guys did, saying he had a better case for being better than Lebron than Durant.

Now as to Howard, I say again:

"2012 Dwight Howard had the third highest defensive rating in the league. Led the league in rebounds, had 2.1 blocks per game and 1.5 steals. And still put up over 20 ppg.

You can make a best in the league case for him too.

Best on the defensive end of the court, and still a force on the offensive end."

So where would you reasonably rank Dwight in 2012? I already know you're not going to say he was better than Lebron, but top three in the league?

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 09:42 AM

"As for Hakeem in '86 he had 3.4 blocks per game, and 2 steals and put up close to 24 ppg and outscored Bird in the Finals."

Do you understand how dumb you sound when you call Bird clear cut best in '86 when you had Hakeem having those numbers, meanwhile you say "Dwight has a case for best in 2012".

:oldlol:

Full Court

10-09-2022, 09:43 AM

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 09:45 AM

You're dodging the question. Where do you put Dwight in 2012? Top three? Top 5? Top 2?

You're dodging the question, how does Dwight have a case for 2012, but Hakeem doesn't for 1986? Despite leading his team to the '86 Finals (Magic with Dwight lost in the 1st round, lol), having better defense than Bird, and outscoring him in the Finals.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 09:46 AM

You're dodging the question, how does Dwight have a case for 2012, but Hakeem doesn't for 1986? Despite leading his team to the Finals, having better defense than Bird, and outscoring him in the Finals.

I asked first. You answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 09:53 AM

I asked first. You answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

What? Where do I rank Dwight for 2012? Probably #5 or something, he slightly regressed on the offensive end compared to the previous season and his team regressed as well.

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 10:01 AM

You're dodging the question, how does Dwight have a case for 2012, but Hakeem doesn't for 1986? Despite leading his team to the '86 Finals (Magic with Dwight lost in the 1st round, lol), having better defense than Bird, and outscoring him in the Finals.

Now answer this

Full Court

10-09-2022, 10:07 AM

Now answer this

Bird equaled his steals. Bird was a better scorer, arguably the best shooter in the league and won MVP. The only thing you've pointed out that Hakeem had over Bird was blocks. I have Hakeem in the all time top 10 - the dude was an absolute beast - but the concensus in '86 was that Bird was the best. The only other in the conversation was Magic. I think it was another year or two before Jordan came into the conversation.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 10:07 AM

What? Where do I rank Dwight for 2012? Probably #5 or something, he slightly regressed on the offensive end compared to the previous season and his team regressed as well.

Which four do you have over Dwight? Lebron and who else?

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 10:11 AM

Bird equaled his steals. Bird was a better scorer, arguably the best shooter in the league and won MVP. The only thing you've pointed out that Hakeem had over Bird was blocks. I have Hakeem in the all time top 10 - the dude was an absolute beast - but the concensus in '86 was that Bird was the best. The only other in the conversation was Magic. I think it was another year or two before Jordan came into the conversation.

Funny, LeBron had more steals, was a better scorer than Dwight by a bigger margin than Bird to Hakeem, won MVP, & the concensus in '12 was that LeBron was the best.

Most of the arguments you used for Bird can be applied to LeBron as well.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 10:20 AM

Funny, LeBron was a better scorer than Dwight by a bigger margin than Bird to Hakeem, won MVP, & the concensus in '12 was that LeBron was the best.

Most of the arguments you used for Bird can be applied to LeBron as well.

I gave four years for Bird - '85-'88. You've only countered with '86.

You're down to two for Lebron - '12 and '13.

Now I agree with you that Durant has a better case than Howard. 2012 was the first year that Lebron was undisputably better than Wade, but Durant was top 2 in the league. It's not a big stretch to juggle the top two.

I, personally, give Lebron the nod over KD in 2012 by virtue of his winning FMVP, but no way you can say he was the clear-cut best. By majority opinon? Sure, ok. But majority does not equal consensus. Bird had legit consensus in the mid/late '80s. But you weren't watching basketball back then, were you?

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 10:20 AM

I would say Bird was the best in the league '85 - '88.

You got the years wrong. I would say '84-'86.

MJ in '88 was an animal, Bird didn't have that type of competition in '84. Wonder how you came up with those years. Also wonder who you feel was the best in '84.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 10:23 AM

You got the years wrong. I would say '84-'86.

MJ in '88 was an animal, Bird didn't have that type of competition in '84. Wonder how you came up with those years. Also wonder who you feel was the best in '84.

I probably did get my years messed up. In '88 the debate was between Jordan and Bird. There was no consensus best that year.

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 10:25 AM

I probably did get my years messed up.

Shocker, lol

Full Court

10-09-2022, 10:30 AM

I gave four years for Bird - '85-'88. You've only countered with '86.

You're down to two for Lebron - '12 and '13.

Now I agree with you that Durant has a better case than Howard. 2012 was the first year that Lebron was undisputably better than Wade, but Durant was top 2 in the league. It's not a big stretch to juggle the top two.

I, personally, give Lebron the nod over KD in 2012 by virtue of his winning FMVP, but no way you can say he was the clear-cut best. By majority opinon? Sure, ok. But majority does not equal consensus. Bird had legit consensus in the mid/late '80s. But you weren't watching basketball back then, were you?

One more point on this. I stated the above with the benefit of hindsight and seeing how the season turned out. Keep in mind, in 2012 Lebron had just come off an epic choke job in the 2011 finals, and during the season KD was right there in the mix for "best in the world" discussion.

Axe

10-09-2022, 10:45 AM

Funny, LeBron had more steals, was a better scorer than Dwight by a bigger margin than Bird to Hakeem, won MVP, & the concensus in '12 was that LeBron was the best.

Most of the arguments you used for Bird can be applied to LeBron as well.
https://i.ibb.co/0Z33m6h/IMG-20221009-221943.jpg

Looking at the image above, he did average more points and steals than superman during that season. As well as assists, despite playing almost just a minute less over him even if he did play in more games. But ofc for these insolent and fraudulent casuals, that'd be 'stat-padding'. Tho it's fine if anyone else (durant, duncan, howard, cp3) during that time could be 'stat-padders' in their books, as long as it's not some individual named 'lebron'. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

Also, because of the obvious goalposts moving, it shouldn't be forgotten that jordan actually went 0-6 against bird during their postseason match-ups bt. :biggums: :lebronamazed:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fadeawayworld.net/.amp/nba/michael-jordan-never-beat-larry-bird-and-boston-celtics-in-the-nba-playoffs-0-6

ShawkFactory

10-09-2022, 11:44 AM

Can you not read either?

I posted it back on the previous page.

:biggums:

And in addition to Rose, you could make a case for Dwight Howard over Lebron in 2011 as well.

You can make a case for a lot of things. That doesn’t make it a strong case.

Durant being arguably better than Lebron in 12 and 13 is no stronger than saying Magic was arguably better than Bird from 84-86

Lee

10-09-2022, 03:11 PM

Prime Bird maybe over Magic. more of a complete all-around game.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 04:24 PM

https://i.ibb.co/0Z33m6h/IMG-20221009-221943.jpg

Looking at the image above, he did average more points and steals than superman during that season. As well as assists, despite playing almost just a minute less over him even if he did play in more games. But ofc for these insolent and fraudulent casuals, that'd be 'stat-padding'. Tho it's fine if anyone else (durant, duncan, howard, cp3) during that time could be 'stat-padders' in their books, as long as it's not some individual named 'lebron'. :confusedshrug: :oldlol:

Also, because of the obvious goalposts moving, it shouldn't be forgotten that jordan actually went 0-6 against bird during their postseason match-ups bt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fadeawayworld.net/.amp/nba/michael-jordan-never-beat-larry-bird-and-boston-celtics-in-the-nba-playoffs-0-6

:roll:

What a whiny dingus.

Debate has nothing to do with Jordan. In fact, the thread has nothing to do with Jordan, yet the whiny merman keeps crying about Jordan.

What an insecure Bronie.

:lebroncry:

Axe

10-09-2022, 04:39 PM

:violin:

Bird equaled his steals. Bird was a better scorer, arguably the best shooter in the league and won MVP. The only thing you've pointed out that Hakeem had over Bird was blocks. I have Hakeem in the all time top 10 - the dude was an absolute beast - but the concensus in '86 was that Bird was the best. The only other in the conversation was Magic. I think it was another year or two before Jordan came into the conversation.

3ba11

10-09-2022, 04:50 PM

Bird

Bird actually turned around a bad team, while Magic and Lebron demanded to have all-time teammates gifted to them and ready-made teams - Magic demanded to play with Kareem, while Lebron's "decision" locked down the league with 3 chips in 6 years and preseason favorite super-teams for 6 straight years (11-16').

The inorganic path of Magic and Lebron confirms that ball-dominators impose spot-up roles that stall young players, so they lack the teammate development, fits and brand of ball to win organically and must be talent-based winners instead (team-hoppers or colluders.. all-star team strategy).

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ, Kawhi, Kobe, Bird or Dirk foster a better brand of ball, teammate development and chemistry, so they can win organically and win with less supporting talent.. They can develop a great brand of ball and win that way, rather than form an all-star team like lesser brands of ball must do (ball-dominators).

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 04:53 PM

.Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..
:oldlol:

3ba11

10-09-2022, 05:02 PM

:oldlol:

What's so funny?

There are few "optimal" positions in the NBA - bird-fed centers or ball-dominators are certainly both flawed skillsets (suboptimal)

Only players with elite jumpshooting skill have "optimal" skillsets with sufficient teammate development, fits and brand of ball to win organically and win with less supporting talent..

Accordingly, guys like Curry, MJ, Kawhi, Kobe, and Dirk are a cut above all centers and ball-dominators because they have superior brand of ball that requires less help to win - they won with secondary producers like Lowry or Wiggins and didn't need the all-time help that centers or ball-dominators need..

Think about the ridiculous help that Magic needed (Kareem) and vice versa... and ditto with Westbrook needing Durant or Lebron needing Wade/AD/Kyrie... These guys need elite 1st options to play 2nd option, while expert jumpshooters can win with secondary producers like Klay and Pippen.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 05:22 PM

:violin:

:lebroncry:

Full Court

10-09-2022, 05:24 PM

3ball up there taking these boys to SCHOOL. :roll:

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 05:37 PM

What's so funny?

There are few "optimal" positions in the NBA - bird-fed centers or ball-dominators are certainly both flawed skillsets (suboptimal)

Only players with elite jumpshooting skill have "optimal" skillsets with sufficient teammate development, fits and brand of ball to win organically and win with less supporting talent..

We know that's how you feel. Remember in 2021 when you were sucking on KD's dvck because of "elite jump shooting skills", then disappeared from this forum for days after he got knocked off by Giannis who you called a no skilled loser for years. :oldlol:

Why can't "elite jump shooting skills" KD win with Kyrie while LeBron did?

You are a contradicting moron.

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 05:38 PM

You can make a case for a lot of things. That doesn’t make it a strong case.

Durant being arguably better than Lebron in 12 and 13 is no stronger than saying Magic was arguably better than Bird from 84-86

Without a doubt, full court takes another L.

3ba11

10-09-2022, 06:19 PM

We know that's how you feel. Remember in 2021 when you were sucking on KD's dvck because of "elite jump shooting skills", then disappeared from this forum for days after he got knocked off by Giannis who you called a no skilled loser for years. :oldlol:

Why can't "elite jump shooting skills" KD win with Kyrie while LeBron did?

You are a contradicting moron.

Don't play dumb - we all remember that Durant/Kyrie were blowing out the Bucks by record amount and up 2-0 before Kyrie got hurt... Kyrie has always been the difference-maker and his injury prevented Lebron from winning in 2015 just like it prevented the Nets' championship in 2021 or the Celtics' Finals run in 2018.

Furthermore, Durant's collusions were needed to break the strangelhold that Lebron's collusions had on the league - Lebron's "decision" locked down the league with 3 titles in 6 years and preseason favorite, super-teams for 6 straight years - so he enjoyed an unprecedented collusion advantage long before Durant enjoyed his brief advantage with the Warriors... People simply have a double-standard where Lebron's collusions were okay but Durant's weren't..

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 06:24 PM

Don't play dumb - we all remember that Durant/Kyrie were blowing out the Bucks by record amount and up 2-0 before Kyrie got hurt... Kyrie has always been the difference-maker and his injury prevented Lebron from winning in 2015 just like it prevented the Nets' championship in 2021 or the Celtics' Finals run in 2018.

What about Durant & KD getting SWEPT by the Celtics? :lol

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 06:26 PM

Don't play dumb

You don't play dumb, I specifically remember you predicting the Nets to still win even after Kyrie went down.

3ba11

10-09-2022, 06:27 PM

What about Durant & KD getting SWEPT by the Celtics? :lol

Durant played like dogshit... you can't put that on Kyrie who carried the Nets in the only game they tried in (game 1).. durant just dropped the ball because he's old like lebron and needs teammates to carry him at this point

Furthermore, Durant's collusions were needed to break the stranglehold that Lebron's collusions had on the league - KD simply broke Lebron's collusion record.. Lebron's "decision" locked down the league with 3 titles in 6 years and preseason favorite super-teams for 6 straight years (11-16') - so he enjoyed an unprecedented collusion advantage long before Durant enjoyed his brief advantage with the Warriors, which was needed to break the stranglehold that Lebron's "decision" was having..... People simply have a double-standard where Lebron's collusions were okay but Durant's weren't..

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 06:34 PM

Durant played like dogshit..

Because he didn't know how to handle the defense the Celtics were playing on him, they played a soft double on him and didn't have the passing ability of LeBron to make them pay for it, he simply doesn't have LeBron's court awareness and vision.

LeBron in that situation would have made the Celtics pay.

3ba11

10-09-2022, 06:53 PM

Because he didn't know how to handle the defense the Celtics were playing on him, they played a soft double on him and didn't have the passing ability of LeBron to make them pay for it, he simply doesn't have LeBron's court awareness and vision.

LeBron in that situation would have made the Celtics pay.

Lebron shot even worse against soft doubles, which is why he always needed all-time scoring help to win - against top teams, he literally needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention like the 14' ECF, 16' Finals, 20' WCF or Finals and many more.

Infact, see the 13' Finals where Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games as teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Allen to force game 7 - so he was clueless against soft doubles and therefore needed an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention (Lebron averaged 25 and Wade 20).. :confusedshrug:

The reason that Lebron needs equal-scoring partners is because he lacks the brand of ball for carry-jobs (too ball-dominant at carry-job volumes to beat top teams) and lacks the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), such as the 07' Finals (22 on 35.6%), or the 15' Finals (35 on 39.8%)... or the last 3 games of the 2010 Semis (21 on 34%), which lost a 2-1 lead as the league favorite.

So you're simply forgetting that before the "decision", Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson and Dwight, or a career-losing ball-dominator like CP3, Luka or Westbrook.

Heck, I forgot the 2011 Finals, where he was genius against soft doubles..... Or the 2021 1st Round, which was lebron's first time with a low seed in the playoffs = 1st Round exit... lol... you can't make this stuff up..

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 07:05 PM

Lebron shot even worse against soft doubles

More proof you don't know wtf you are talking about, then again you yourself said you haven't watched a game in over a decade.

Teams don't play that type of defense on LeBron because they are terrified of his passing ability.

And if you watched the 2013 Finals you would know that the Spurs were not playing that defense on him, in the first few games they were daring him to shoot, he was caught off guard by this, but he adjusted his game and dominated the 2nd half of game 6 and game 7. In game 7 they dared him to shoot again and he didn't hesitate, he made them pay for that and dropped 37 points.

You just exposed yourself for not knowing a damn thing. Like holy shit, how clueless can you be but at the same time have the confidence to post that garbage.

3ba11

10-09-2022, 07:21 PM

More proof you don't know wtf you are talking about, then again you yourself said you haven't watched a game in over a decade.

Teams don't play that type of defense on LeBron because they are terrified of his passing ability.

And if you watched the 2013 Finals you would know that the Spurs were not playing that defense on him, in the first few games they were daring him to shoot, he was caught off guard by this, but he adjusted his game and dominated the 2nd half of game 6 and game 7. In game 7 they dared him to shoot again and he didn't hesitate, he made them pay for that and dropped 37 points.

You just exposed yourself for not knowing a damn thing. Like holy shit, how clueless can you be but at the same time have the confidence to post that garbage.

teams send soft-doubles at all effective rim-attackers to slow their path to the rim - they only hard-double hot jumpshooters to get the ball out of their hands - it's a massive defensive gamble to hard-double that compromises the defense with a 4-on-3 off-the-ball.. Fortunately, Lebron's jumper rarely gets hot, so teams don't have to compromise their defense by sending hard-doubles at him like they do hot jumpshooters (Curry, MJ, Kobe)

So again, I just gave you tons of examples where Lebron played horrifically against soft doubles because again, all effective rim attackers face soft doubles and defenders cheating off their man - it's completely standard - Durant is just old now and can't deal with them anymore, and he was never that good at dealing with the physical, 90's style defensive tactics that today's game embraces in the playoffs.

Full Court

10-09-2022, 07:31 PM

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 07:41 PM

Except that Lebron couldn't even lead his superteam to the play-in. :roll:

He beat that Boston team in 2018 without Kyrie. :roll:

1987_Lakers

10-09-2022, 07:42 PM

teams send soft-doubles at all effective rim-attackers to slow their path to the rim -

That is called help defense, everyone sees those, jesus you are slow. LeBron did not see any soft doubles when he had the ball in the perimeter, unlike Durant.

3ba11

10-09-2022, 07:45 PM

More proof you don't know wtf you are talking about, then again you yourself said you haven't watched a game in over a decade.

Teams don't play that type of defense on LeBron because they are terrified of his passing ability.

And if you watched the 2013 Finals you would know that the Spurs were not playing that defense on him, in the first few games they were daring him to shoot, he was caught off guard by this, but he adjusted his game and dominated the 2nd half of game 6 and game 7. In game 7 they dared him to shoot again and he didn't hesitate, he made them pay for that and dropped 37 points.

You just exposed yourself for not knowing a damn thing. Like holy shit, how clueless can you be but at the same time have the confidence to post that garbage.

You don't understand how double-teams work.. When teams hard-double, it leaves them with only 3 defenders left to defend 4 guys - so hard-doubles ALWAYS put the defense at a disadvantage regardless of who the passer is..

The only way teams will compromise the defense by sending a hard-double is against hot jumpshooters that require getting the ball out of their hands.. Otherwise, they just send soft-doubles at any effective rim attacker to slow their path to the rim..

Essentially, Lebron lacks elite jumpshooting skill and therefore his offense isn't lethal enough to attract a hard-double (make the defense gamble against a 4-on-3).

Regarding Durant - again, he's just old.. He did just fine against the Bucks the previous year but got old this year