A Case for Kobe over LeBron...

[Johnny32]

has anyone figured out what the case for kobe supposedly was lol?

[8Ball]

That's fair. By the numbers though would you say AD had a better playoff run than LeBron? :confusedshrug:

What? 2020 playoffs:

LeBron: 28ppg / 11 rebounds / 9 assists.

30 PER run.

[Johnny32]

A Case for Kobe over LeBron...



Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

lol jesus. i didn't know he was that putrid when facing elimination/gm 7s. hilarious considering the clutch rep he used to have.

[8Ball]

lol jesus. i didn't know he was that putrid when facing elimination/gm 7s. hilarious considering the clutch rep he used to have.

LeBron:

Elimination games

15 10 W-L record


33.48 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

10.76 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

7.4 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

1.0 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.6 STL (Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

FG% 48.8% Regular season career average is 50.4%)




Game sevens

6 2 W-L record

34.87 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

9.87 RPG (Regular season career average is 7.4 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 7.4 APG)

0.8 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.7 BPG)

1.7 STL(Regular season career average is 1.6 STL)

3.6 TOV Regular season career average is 3.5 TOV)

FG% 48.7% Regular season career average is 50.4%)

[1987_Lakers]

A Case for Kobe over LeBron...



Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

The stats that sent Kenny to a nut house.

[8Ball]

A Case for Kobe over LeBron...



Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



vs

https://i.ibb.co/HqHdyYp/Screen-Shot-2022-07-15-at-9-24-12-AM.png

[SouBeachTalents]

vs

https://i.ibb.co/HqHdyYp/Screen-Shot-2022-07-15-at-9-24-12-AM.png
5/7 > 4/10

[RRR3]

5/7 > 4/10
I truly wonder what the argument will be if LeBron wins another. 81 points?

[HoopsNY]

I mean even if they were both at their peaks in all these years just comparing how two players play against the same opponent isn't a great indicator of who's better.


Unless you think Jimmy Butler is better than Durant?

I don't quite follow? Butler is nowhere near Durant in terms of all-time rankings, and the two certainly aren't highly debated where it comes to one over the other.


A better way is just to compare their overall advanced and impact stats, both regular season and playoffs, and to take context into your consideration as well.

Look at Kobe and LeBron circa 2005-08, (I purposefully left out 2004 because it was LeBron's rookie year).

LeBron has him beaten in advanced and impact stats there as well. Now, I don't think anyone seriously thinks LeBron > Kobe during that time. The conversation is nuanced and you have to control for a variety of factors. Analytics don't always tell you the full picture, but it does make a case.

[HoopsNY]

lots of these stans take any criticism of lebron as an personal attack on themselves :lol

i lowkey think some of them live vicariously through lebron’s accomplishments and stature in the league, it’s pretty sad

This is facts. You'd think LeBron is their father or something. And even when you say LeBron is > Kobe, they STILL throw fits because you say it's a conversation between the two.

[HoopsNY]

has anyone figured out what the case for kobe supposedly was lol?

3 finals appearances, 2 titles, 2 FMVPs vs. 2 finals appearances, 1 title, and 1 FMVP given the sample was very close. Statistically it favors LeBron, but the sample in terms of age and injuries also favors LeBron unfairly.

2009 shows LeBron fairing better, but it's closer than what meets the eye given SVG's strategy (which you haven't acknowledged despite me providing the quote). Kobe's +/- for the Orlando series was +45. The on/off numbers for each player in each series runs a draw.

Given that LeBron was on a superteam in 2011 and 2012, and that LeBron had a complete meltdown in 2011, it favors Kobe.

Based on all of the above, one MIGHT argue Kobe has a slight edge over LeBron. For me, it closes the gap, but it doesn't put Kobe over LeBron.

[RRR3]

I don't quite follow? Butler is nowhere near Durant in terms of all-time rankings, and the two certainly aren't highly debated where it comes to one over the other.



Look at Kobe and LeBron circa 2005-08, (I purposefully left out 2004 because it was LeBron's rookie year).

LeBron has him beaten in advanced and impact stats there as well. Now, I don't think anyone seriously thinks LeBron > Kobe during that time. The conversation is nuanced and you have to control for a variety of factors. Analytics don't always tell you the full picture, but it does make a case.
I was referring to Butler vs KD just last year. Butler performed much better versus the same opponent. Kobe beats LeBron in advanced stats in the playoffs in that time span and Iirc in the regular season at least in some areas as well. LeBron got exploited pretty hard in the playoffs in 07 and 08 hence awful efficiency.

[RRR3]

This is facts. You'd think LeBron is their father or something. And even when you say LeBron is > Kobe, they STILL throw fits because you say it's a conversation between the two.
Because it’s not a conversation lol. LeBron is widely considered top 2 all time with MJ these days, Kobe fringe top 10.

[HoopsNY]

I was referring to Butler vs KD just last year. Butler performed much better versus the same opponent.

Yea, but that would be just one year and it wouldn't include a finals appearances for either player. Since the finals is the biggest stage, it stands as being more important. Not to mention, I used a spread of five years as opposed to just one.


Kobe beats LeBron in advanced stats in the playoffs in that time span and Iirc in the regular season at least in some areas as well. LeBron got exploited pretty hard in the playoffs in 07 and 08 hence awful efficiency.

Kobe has him in TS% during that time, but LeBron has him in PER (which is about even honestly), OWS, DWS, WS, VORP, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, and BPM. LeBron has him in RAPM too. This is all the playoffs btw.

[MadDog]

lots of these stans take any criticism of lebron as an personal attack on themselves :lol

i lowkey think some of them live vicariously through lebron’s accomplishments and stature in the league, it’s pretty sad

Lol that makes sense. They literally become irate when you dont rank a stranger (who plays a kids game :oldlol:) as high as they do.

[MadDog]

What? 2020 playoffs:

LeBron: 28ppg / 11 rebounds / 9 assists.

30 PER run.

Try to keep up. We're talking about on/off stats. AD had a better on/off than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs. How many LeBron fans will say AD had more impact though lol

[RRR3]

Yea, but that would be just one year and it wouldn't include a finals appearances for either player. Since the finals is the biggest stage, it stands as being more important. Not to mention, I used a spread of five years as opposed to just one.



Kobe has him in TS% during that time, but LeBron has him in PER (which is about even honestly), OWS, DWS, WS, VORP, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, and BPM. LeBron has him in RAPM too. This is all the playoffs btw.
That’s very surprising to me tbh but RAPM isn’t good to use for such small sample sizes like I said. LeBron was very inefficient in the 07 and 08 playoffs I figured that would hurt him more.

[FKAri]

Interesting everyone who's not a LeBron stan or a MJ or Kobe stan in this thread has disagreed with you, though. You can get away with calling me a LeBron stan but hard to say that about Fkari or NBAGOAT who have also told you you are wrong. Soubeach and stronglurk are LeBron fans but pretty unbiased ones and have both also told you that you were wrong. I don't follow you around, you made a thread and I responded and then I continued to respond after you did. If you don't want responses don't make threads.

I didn't really say OP was wrong.


lots of these stans take any criticism of lebron as an personal attack on themselves :lol

i lowkey think some of them live vicariously through lebron’s accomplishments and stature in the league, it’s pretty sad

Absolutely. Fans in general are like this. Be it living through an individual or the team. It's why most hardcore sports fans are the biggest losers around.

[LeGoat4Life]

Kobe had a 3peat and a 2peat

Both achievements are something Lebron will never do

Lebron has yet to do a 2peat (full seasons)

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq had a 3peat and Kobe had a 2peat

Both achievements are something Lebron will never do

Lebron has yet to do a 2peat (full seasons)
Fixed

[8Ball]

Try to keep up. We're talking about on/off stats. AD had a better on/off than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs. How many LeBron fans will say AD had more impact though lol

On / off stats are heavily skewed by the players that are playing with you. Same as +/-. That's why GMs don't build teams by looking at on / off as their go to statistic. That's why the first thing coaches do is break down the film, then look at stats, but they ignore the bullshit stats you look at.

Coaches focus on points per possession stats. Which plays by which players produce higher PPP vs other plays being run. These are the advanced stats that actually matter. Not the garbage low IQ fans like yourself look at.

Through out the entire 2020 playoffs, Vogel made Bron sit earlier in the 1st so that Bron could roll out with the bench in the early 2nd quarter while AD kept playing with the starters. Bron had the task of commanding more difficult lineups because he is a playmaker. That impacts your on/off stats.

You have zero understanding of basketball.

Try watching each game and then form an opinion.

Try to keep up.

[8Ball]

There is many reasons why all nba coaches and assistant coaches and GMs barely ever use the following stats:

OWS, DWS, WS, VORP, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, and BPM. RAPM.


But its funny to see fans that think they know basketball use these stats to make arguments of player vs player.

[Full Court]

Stats only matter to Bronies if they paint Lebron in a good light. If they don't, they automatically get discarded.

[8Ball]

Stats only matter to Jordansexuals if they paint Jordan in a good light. If they don't, they automatically get discarded.

[MadDog]

On / off stats are heavily skewed by the players that are playing with you. Same as +/-. That's why GMs don't build teams by looking at on / off as their go to statistic. That's why the first thing coaches do is break down the film, then look at stats, but they ignore the bullshit stats you look at.

Coaches focus on points per possession stats. Which plays by which players produce higher PPP vs other plays being run. These are the advanced stats that actually matter. Not the garbage low IQ fans like yourself look at.

Through out the entire 2020 playoffs, Vogel made Bron sit earlier in the 1st so that Bron could roll out with the bench in the early 2nd quarter while AD kept playing with the starters. Bron had the task of commanding more difficult lineups because he is a playmaker. That impacts your on/off stats.

You have zero understanding of basketball.

Try watching each game and then form an opinion.

Try to keep up.

Uhhh, I used the AD/LeBron example to counter the on/off argument. Of course its flawed moron. Already discussed that earlier in the thread. Before jumping into a debate, I suggest you learn how to comprehend.

[8Ball]

Im glad you agree on / off is a bad stat to compare players with.

[TheMan]

Kobe is also the only GOAT tier player to have won a chip without a Top 75 All Time great, Pau Gasol doesn't have the resumé to crack top 75, not even close. He won two titles with Gasol as his sidekick, even beating the Howard Magic that as underdogs ousted LeBum from Finals contention.

[Full Court]

Stats only matter to Jordansexuals if they paint Jordan in a good light. If they don't, they automatically get discarded.

^Confirmed butthurt Bronie. :lol

-86
22-33 finals record
4/10

Oh, and by the way....he led a SUPERTEAM to the LOTTERY. :roll:

[MadDog]

Im glad you agree on / off is a bad stat to compare players with.

Where did I agree on that? Its obviously flawed and I wouldn't cling to it. But an impact measure on team performance has validity. Read posts before replying.

[1987_Lakers]

Kobe is also the only GOAT tier player to have won a chip without a Top 75 All Time great, Pau Gasol doesn't have the resumé to crack top 75, not even close. He won two titles with Gasol as his sidekick, even beating the Howard Magic that as underdogs ousted LeBum from Finals contention.

Hakeem in '94?

LeBron in 2016?

Try again.

[TheMan]

Hakeem in '94?

LeBron in 2016?

Try again.

Ok, but he won twice in a row? Hakeem had Drexler in 95 and LBJ was one and done after 16

[sdot_thadon]

Kobe is also the only GOAT tier player to have won a chip without a Top 75 All Time great, Pau Gasol doesn't have the resumé to crack top 75, not even close. He won two titles with Gasol as his sidekick, even beating the Howard Magic that as underdogs ousted LeBum from Finals contention.

Yeah because Howard's Magic and Lebron's Cavs both had a top 75 player on the rosters correct......

[TheMan]

Yeah because Howard's Magic and Lebron's Cavs both had a top 75 player on the rosters correct......

They didn't win a chip though, Kobe did, twice in a row.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe is also the only GOAT tier player to have won a chip without a Top 75 All Time great, Pau Gasol doesn't have the resumé to crack top 75, not even close. He won two titles with Gasol as his sidekick, even beating the Howard Magic that as underdogs ousted LeBum from Finals contention.
Where he ranks all time is frankly irrelevant. Gasol was the best 2nd option in the league during that time, and outscored the opposing teams first option in half their series during their title runs, including both Finals.

[WhiteKyrie]

Kobe vs LeBron

2004: Kobe
2005: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Toss Up
2010: LeBron
2011: LeBron
2012: LeBron
2013. LeBron
2014: LeBron
2015: LeBron
2016: LeBron

5 to 7

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ougMITHKVW8

[John8204]

Kobe is also the only GOAT tier player to have won a chip without a Top 75 All Time great, Pau Gasol doesn't have the resumé to crack top 75, not even close. He won two titles with Gasol as his sidekick, even beating the Howard Magic that as underdogs ousted LeBum from Finals contention.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWbIIRDsPY

7 Chips - 5 NBA 2 NBL...carried the league on his back won a title with a broken arm.

Mikan > Jordan > Lebron > Kobe

[sdot_thadon]

They didn't win a chip though, Kobe did, twice in a row.

Meh, Curry also did as well, Giannis, Isiah Thomas, Duncan, Lebron, Dream. All those guys won a chip some multiple under the exact same scenario. Not too exclusive a club that makes it worthy of this pedestal lol. Key word you used is "only". False.

[RRR3]

Meh, Curry also did as well, Giannis, Isiah Thomas, Duncan, Lebron, Dream. All those guys won a chip some multiple under the exact same scenario. Not too exclusive a club that makes it worthy of this pedestal lol. Key word you used is "only". False.
He’s just a butthurt MJ stan nothing he says should be taken seriously.

[TheMan]

He’s just a butthurt MJ stan nothing he says should be taken seriously.

I'm making a case for Kobe, keep up commie

[RRR3]

Sob sob sob :cry:
:lol

[Duderonomy]

Really Kobe is the only flashy 2000's guard who had team success. Prime Tmac , Vince, Iverson never had a KG, Shaq, Duncan level teammate..

I know Kobe wasn't afraid to go at stacked teams like the Spurs, LeBron quickly folded when he had the carry the load.

[Axe]

Really Kobe is the only flashy 2000's guard who had team success. Prime Tmac , Vince, Iverson never had a KG, Shaq, Duncan level teammate..

I know Kobe wasn't afraid to go at stacked teams like the Spurs, LeBron quickly folded when he had the carry the load.
Lol he had one of the goat coaches in league history ffs.

[Johnny32]

Where he ranks all time is frankly irrelevant. Gasol was the best 2nd option in the league during that time, and outscored the opposing teams first option in half their series during their title runs, including both Finals.

sounds like scottie pippen in the 90s.

[HoopsNY]

I didn't really say OP was wrong.



Absolutely. Fans in general are like this. Be it living through an individual or the team. It's why most hardcore sports fans are the biggest losers around.

Thank you for that clarification. RRR3 is just obsessed with me for some reason and feels the need to incessantly lie about the claims I did or didn't make.

[HoopsNY]

Really Kobe is the only flashy 2000's guard who had team success. Prime Tmac , Vince, Iverson never had a KG, Shaq, Duncan level teammate..

I know Kobe wasn't afraid to go at stacked teams like the Spurs, LeBron quickly folded when he had the carry the load.

My post isn't really about early 2000s Kobe though. I suppose you could look at 2000-10 and then compare it to LeBron 2006-16. But that would probably reveal what we already know....LeBron > Kobe.

I isolated the data because it's more evenly matched given peak years and opponents they both faced in the very same years. It helps make for a better debate IMO.

[NBAGOAT]

I don't quite follow? Butler is nowhere near Durant in terms of all-time rankings, and the two certainly aren't highly debated where it comes to one over the other.



Look at Kobe and LeBron circa 2005-08, (I purposefully left out 2004 because it was LeBron's rookie year).

LeBron has him beaten in advanced and impact stats there as well. Now, I don't think anyone seriously thinks LeBron > Kobe during that time. The conversation is nuanced and you have to control for a variety of factors. Analytics don't always tell you the full picture, but it does make a case.

well is that true for those advanced stats? epm is one but there are others that dont support that. You can throw nuance into any conversation but there's a certain cutoff where a conversation doesn't need to be had. Not saying that's lebron/kobe but I dont think it's much of a debate for reasons I listed earlier. A conversation that didnt need to be had was say curry/booker during the regular season this year and suns fans legitimately argued for booker. I can throw "nuance" into a mj/lebron conversation and make it a debate and half the board would rip my head off

[kawhileonard2]

My post isn't really about early 2000s Kobe though. I suppose you could look at 2000-10 and then compare it to LeBron 2006-16. But that would probably reveal what we already know....LeBron > Kobe.

I isolated the data because it's more evenly matched given peak years and opponents they both faced in the very same years. It helps make for a better debate IMO.

Kobe is actually better during that span.

[TheGoatest]

:oldlol: This desperate "How can LeBron be better than jordon when he's not even better than Kobe?" insecurity thread is hilarious. :roll:

[Legend248]

:oldlol: This desperate "How can LeBron be better than jordon when he's not even better than Kobe?" insecurity thread is hilarious. :roll:

Hey *******, kobe is better than lebum, so go shine my shoes now before I break your ****ing bones :mad:

[HoopsNY]

Kobe is actually better during that span.

Based on what? The only thing that comes to mind is that Kobe was able to achieve greater success in a tougher conference without the need for forging a super-team during the same spread of years. I agree that it closes the gap somewhat, but for me it's not enough to eliminate it all together.

[8Ball]

Hey *******, kobe is better than lebum, so go shine my shoes now before I break your ****ing bones :mad:

Not even Kobe fans in LA believe Kobe > LeBron.

[Legend248]

Not even Kobe fans in LA believe Kobe > LeBron.

Says who? Many people in LA never wanted Lebum here. Look at all his murals getting defaced lol, trust me NOBODY IN LA thinks lebum is better than kobe, dont make me come smack you now kid, and im serious, I will do it.

[NBAGOAT]

Says who? Many people in LA never wanted Lebum here. Look at all his murals getting defaced lol, trust me NOBODY IN LA thinks lebum is better than kobe, dont make me come smack you now kid, and im serious, I will do it.

Neither of you are close to correct lol.

[kawhileonard2]

Based on what? The only thing that comes to mind is that Kobe was able to achieve greater success in a tougher conference without the need for forging a super-team during the same spread of years. I agree that it closes the gap somewhat, but for me it's not enough to eliminate it all together.

Won 5 titles for the original franchise he played for while Lebron only won once.

[GrayGoat]

Won 5 titles for the original franchise he played for while Lebron only won once.

Hornets were his original team.

[HoopsNY]

Won 5 titles for the original franchise he played for while Lebron only won once.

That's a more complicated way of trying to evaluate it. There are too many differing factors, especially when you account for him playing alongside Shaq for the first 3 of them. Stick to the sample as it's probably the closest overlap you can find between the two players' careers.

[kawhileonard2]

Hornets were his original team.

Original franchise is the Lakers that is who he played for.

[kawhileonard2]

That's a more complicated way of trying to evaluate it. There are too many differing factors, especially when you account for him playing alongside Shaq for the first 3 of them. Stick to the sample as it's probably the closest overlap you can find between the two players' careers.

Lebron played with Shaq as well and only got to round 2 and this with a Shaq who had 3 finals mvp's already and a league mvp.

[HoopsNY]

Lebron played with Shaq as well and only got to round 2 and this with a Shaq who had 3 finals mvp's already and a league mvp.

This is an idiotic way of looking at it. Shaq was 37 at the time and clearly over the hill. He could still produce but nowhere near the level of peak Shaq. What are you smoking?

[GrayGoat]

Original franchise is the Lakers that is who he played for.

Nope he straight up said he won’t play for anyone but the lakers. Dude forced his way

[kawhileonard2]

This is an idiotic way of looking at it. Shaq was 37 at the time and clearly over the hill. He could still produce but nowhere near the level of peak Shaq. What are you smoking?

Lebron played with Shaq as well and only got to round 2 and this with a Shaq who had 3 finals mvp's already and a league mvp. Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq. Lebron got to round 2 with Shaq and this with both Kobe and Lebron in there primes.

[GrayGoat]

This is an idiotic way of looking at it. Shaq was 37 at the time and clearly over the hill. He could still produce but nowhere near the level of peak Shaq. What are you smoking?

2012 Celtics with 37 year old Shaq instead of 40 year old Shaq win the title easily

[kawhileonard2]

Nope he straight up said he won’t play for anyone but the lakers. Dude forced his way

Shows he only played for the Lakers thus his original franchise he played for. Learn to read.

[GrayGoat]

Shows he only played for the Lakers thus his original franchise he played for. Learn to read.

Nope false

[kawhileonard2]

Nope false

Only see Lakers stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Prove me wrong!