Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton - who was better?

[kgisbigticket]

Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton who was better?

[wizzla11]

Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton who was better?
Just based on talent and their skill set you would have to say that Zeke was more talented of a player(more athletic, better handle,better scorer).

As for their legacy on the league it's Stockton all the way. alltime leader in steals and assists and 1 of the greatest PGs ever. NO rings but that's Utahs fault not his.
2 different types of PGs though, Stockton would run your offense and Zeke would carry your team.

[boozehound]

who has more hardware? isiah was the better bball player (could do more), you MIGHT be able to make the argument that stockton was as good or better as a floor general

[allball]

Isiah

[picc84]

Isiah.

[Glove_20]

As much as I like Stockton.....Isiah Thomas is the answer

[Younggrease]

Just based on talent and their skill set you would have to say that Zeke was more talented of a player(more athletic, better handle,better scorer).

As for their legacy on the league it's Stockton all the way. alltime leader in steals and assists and 1 of the greatest PGs ever. NO rings but that's Utahs fault not his.2 different types of PGs though, Stockton would run your offense and Zeke would carry your team.

no thats Stockton's fault not Utah's...Zeke is a better player

[Valliant13]

Just based on talent and their skill set you would have to say that Zeke was more talented of a player(more athletic, better handle,better scorer).

As for their legacy on the league it's Stockton all the way. alltime leader in steals and assists and 1 of the greatest PGs ever. NO rings but that's Utahs fault not his.
2 different types of PGs though, Stockton would run your offense and Zeke would carry your team.

Stocktons legacy is being unable to win a ring playing beside a Top 50 alltime player (in both their primes).

Zeke led his team to the Championship twice.

[miles berg]

Has to be Isiah Thomas, the guy was such a unique badass. That is no knock on John Stockton, he is a top 50 player all time, but Isiah Thomas is probably the most underrated player from the golden era of the NBA (1980-1993). You hear about Magic, Bird, & Jordan but you never hear about Isiah and he was right there with those guys.

I think, and people will laugh at me, but I think Isiah Thomas is arguably a top 10 player all time. I think he is right there with Oscar Robertson in the history books.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

tough call.
both were great at so many things.
I will take Stockton based on his defense, which was truly great and probably underrated. I will also take Stockton based on Isiah being a whinny little beatch.

[Younggrease]

tough call.
both were great at so many things.
I will take Stockton based on his defense, which was truly great and probably underrated. I will also take Stockton based on Isiah being a whinny little beatch.

people throw around the word "great" too often. He was really good, he used all of his talents but still wasnt great.

[JordanL]

people throw around the word "great" too often. He was really good, he used all of his talents but still wasnt great.

How can the #1 stealer of all time by a margin of 30% not have "great" defense?

[Younggrease]

How can the #1 stealer of all time by a margin of 30% not have "great" defense?

The same reason I dont consider Marcus Camby a "great" defender

and his 4 or 5 second team all defensive team appearances dont = great. I dont care who was in front of him. There are 4 spots for him to get and he couldnt even consistently get one of those. That isnt a "great" defender.

[JordanL]

The same reason I dont consider Marcus Camby a "great" defender

and his 4 or 5 second team all defensive team appearances dont = great. I dont care who was in front of him. There are 4 spots for him to get and he couldnt even consistently get one of those. That isnt a "great" defender.

You're a Suns fan still bitter about 96, aren't you.

[TurkeyStraightUp]

Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton who was better?

Based on results, Isaiah was better. His mental state dictated that he win at all costs.

His 25 point outburst in one quarter of the Finals on a gimpy leg hobbling up and down the court will probably never be equaled.


Stockton, on the other hand, was more fundamental in Duncan kind of way. He was probably a better point guard, but didn't have the drive that Isaiah had.

[Younggrease]

Stockton, on the other hand, was more fundamental in Duncan kind of way. He was probably a better point guard, but didn't have the drive that Isaiah had.

isnt dribbling with your left hand a fundamental?? Didnt see Stockton do that too often.

[90sDynasty]

isnt dribbling with your left hand a fundamental?? Didnt see Stockton do that too often.

You have to be kidding..........I assume that was sarcasm.

These two were about as equal as it gets in terms of players.....Zeke more of a scorer, Stockton more of a passer. Rings is what separates them, but I'm not sure Stockton couldn't win at least one ring with a supporting cast of Rodman, Laimbeer, Microwave, Dumars, Aguirre, etc.....

Zeke had amazing drive, especially at the end of games, evidenced by his performance on a bad ankle and cut face.

Stockton also had a similar performance, that is lost because it is overshadowed by his last second shot. If anyone watched NBC during the end of game 6 of the WCF, Stockton took that game over in the final minute, erasing a insurmountable deficit, scoring 9 points in a minute.

[Younggrease]

You have to be kidding..........I assume that was sarcasm.

These two were about as equal as it gets in terms of players.....Zeke more of a scorer, Stockton more of a passer. Rings is what separates them, but I'm not sure Stockton couldn't win at least one ring with a supporting cast of Rodman, Laimbeer, Microwave, Dumars, Aguirre, etc.....

Zeke had amazing drive, especially at the end of games, evidenced by his performance on a bad ankle and cut face.

Stockton also had a similar performance, that is lost because it is overshadowed by his last second shot. If anyone watched NBC during the end of game 6 of the WCF, Stockton took that game over in the final minute, erasing a insurmountable deficit, scoring 9 points in a minute.

im sure

[JordanL]

im sure

What the hell is your problem? Stockton is one of the greats of the game, and you seem to be out to take a leak all over his legacy.

[Younggrease]

What the hell is your problem? Stockton is one of the greats of the game, and you seem to be out to take a leak all over his legacy.

Stockton is a top 25 player ever...but he isnt as good a player as Isiah. He didnt have that extra gear Isiah had and because of that when a guy on the other squad turned it up a notch he couldnt answer. Isiah on the other hand could amp it up as well when needed and that ability to carry his team when needed is what seperates the two players. And that is no small seperation its the difference between 2 rings and 0 rings.

[Da KO King]

isnt dribbling with your left hand a fundamental?? Didnt see Stockton do that too often.
An exaggeration of the truth but.... :oldlol:


Stockton rarely put the ball in his left hand for more than one or two bounces.

[90sDynasty]

Stockton is a top 25 player ever...but he isnt as good a player as Isiah. He didnt have that extra gear Isiah had and because of that when a guy on the other squad turned it up a notch he couldnt answer. Isiah on the other hand could amp it up as well when needed and that ability to carry his team when needed is what seperates the two players. And that is no small seperation its the difference between 2 rings and 0 rings.


Stockton did have an extra gear..............Evidenced in the 1997 WCF when he erased a 7 point deficit with a minute left by himself.

In 1997 NBA Finals, we had the game won with 1:30 left in the game, when Stockton hits a three, strips Jordan on the next possession, gets free throws, and then rebounds MJ's miss, heaves a 75 foot football pass to Malone winning the game..........sad day in my life. But, to say Stockton didn't have an extra gear is nonsense. Even in 1998, it was his three that forced Jordan to pull out his greatest heroics, John was as clutch as they come.

[ThaRegul8r]

How can the #1 stealer of all time by a margin of 30% not have "great" defense?

Too many people look at stats alone to make decisions without looking deeper. Steals in and of themselves doesn't necessary = great defense. It could mean you gamble a lot, which leads you open to getting burned. Go beyond the superficial.

[Niquesports]

How can the #1 stealer of all time by a margin of 30% not have "great" defense?

Steals are not always a great determining factor of how good a player can man up and check someone. Many times steals come from playing passing lanes and double teaming from the blind side.and this is base on a teams defense of system not how great a defender a person is. I would say DJ and Michael Cooper as well as Payton were all better defenders than Stockton

[yobore]

I'm surprised ppl are actually getting this right this time usually it's Stockton.

Stockton was unbelievable, but Isiah played with "I'm gonna beat you no matter what" fire and took control of the games when they mattered. The stats don't say it all for player like Isiah it's all about his attitude and toughness, which spread to the whole team.

[El Kabong]

I'll say Stockton, but I'll admit that anything to do with Stockton, i'm completely biased for him.

[SoCalMike]

If you want a player with championship toughness, you go with Isiah... simple.



:pimp:

[KRAYZIE]

Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton who was better?
Michael Jordan

[saadbaig3]

two completely different players, u cant compare them, its like comparing apples to oranges

[KRAYZIE]

two completely different players, u cant compare them, its like comparing apples to oranges
Sure you can, they were both point gaurds weren't they?

[20 Dimes A Game]

Sure you can, they were both point gaurds weren't they?

C/S

[bdreason]

Zeke.

[Niquesports]

two completely different players, u cant compare them, its like comparing apples to oranges



not really at all. They both played for the most part in the same era.
they both were guards
its more like asking do you want a Granny Smith apple or a Red deliceous

[JtotheIzzo]

Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton who was better?


Isiah is one of the most underrated players ever

[JtotheIzzo]

two completely different players, u cant compare them, its like comparing apples to oranges

someone drop you on your head?

[Dasher]

Zeke could do everything that Stock could do...but Stock could not do everything that Zeke could do as evidenced by the chips won in the most stacked era in NBA histoire.

[tikay00]

Zeke by far, he won 2 chips in the sickest era of all time. He was like Michael Jordan, object is to kill you. Stockton is like nash, great, but not good enough to win the chip! ahahahahahahh!

[RIP CITY]

I'll take Isiah. He was the more talented player, and was better in clutch situations (Stockton was no slouch, but Isiah was better).

[chopchop20]

Zeke was a better scorer and athlete, and equally as good of a passer as Stockton. To this day, not one player in the league can do a behind the back dribble like Isiah.

[Lakers13]

Isiah. Zeke was a monster, he may not have all the stats like Stockton, but he had what mattered, Rings.

[guy]

You have to be kidding..........I assume that was sarcasm.

These two were about as equal as it gets in terms of players.....Zeke more of a scorer, Stockton more of a passer. Rings is what separates them, but I'm not sure Stockton couldn't win at least one ring with a supporting cast of Rodman, Laimbeer, Microwave, Dumars, Aguirre, etc.....

Zeke had amazing drive, especially at the end of games, evidenced by his performance on a bad ankle and cut face.

Stockton also had a similar performance, that is lost because it is overshadowed by his last second shot. If anyone watched NBC during the end of game 6 of the WCF, Stockton took that game over in the final minute, erasing a insurmountable deficit, scoring 9 points in a minute.

OMG I remember that. That was amazing and one of the best clutch performances I've seen. I think Stockton doesn't get the credit he deserves because of Malone. When it came down the stretch of important games, Stockton was the go-to-guy not Malone, and cause people don't realize that he is underrated.

I still give it to Isiah though. He was a killer. Its a shame he doesn't get noticed as the only player that can say he beat Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, and Jordan's Bulls.

[evinecz]

I pick Chris Paul.

[Sneakerpro]

Isiah and it isn't close IMO.

Stockton played longer and that's about it IMO.

[Lebron23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyIgmjB0PMA&feature=related

[White Chocolate]

Isiah wins this one. Not to take anything away from Stockton, but Isiah always stepped up his game in the playoffs.

[w00terz]

Isiah.

[plowking]

My question is, how the hell did Isiah not win an MVP in his career? Check out his 84-85 season, that's just incredible.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html

[Lebron23]

My question is, how the hell did Isiah not win an MVP in his career? Check out his 84-85 season, that's just incredible.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html

That is sick :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Psileas]

Because Bird and Magic were better than him, even in 1985. He was always underrated, though, in that he rarely was even in top-10 in MVP voting. Hell, in 1985 he finished 9th. In 1989 and 1990, with the Pistons winning both championships, he was not even top-10!
Stockton was equally underrated. In 1991, for example, he averaged 17.2 points (50.7% FG), 14.2 assists, 2.9 steals and led his team to a 54-28 record. Where did he end up? 12th.

[Lebron23]

I pick Isiah Thomas because he have the killer instinct mentality during the 4th quarter, and he is one of the best individual player in the 1980's.

[New Jazzy Nets]

Whats so great about Zeke? he had 4 seasons where he averaged 10 or more assists per game. 5 seasons where he was over 20 PPG. 5 seasons with 2 more steals per game. Yes he does have rings but he also had a great cast. Stockton had 10 seasons where he averaged 10 or more assists per game. 0 seasons of 20 or more PPG. 10 seasons over 2 steals PG. He had Malone yes, but not much else, he had a declining hornacek. But if he didn't have a malone he could've put up more points.

[Dasher]

PGs are like QBs, in order to truly be great you have to have jewelry.

Zeke=Steve Young,he is a fierce competitor who willed his team to titles. He is overlooked because of the other greats that played during his era.

John Stockton=Warren Moon,killer stats in a system that designed to rack them up, that in the end ring hollow because he never won anything.

[New Jazzy Nets]

PGs are like QBs, in order to truly be great you have to have jewelry.

Zeke=Steve Young,he is a fierce competitor who willed his team to titles. He is overlooked because of the other greats that played during his era.

John Stockton=Warren Moon,killer stats in a system that designed to rack them up, that in the end ring hollow because he never won anything.

Steve Young had a tremendous cast, Warren Moon not so much. Steve Young had the best WR of all time for crying out loud.

[Dasher]

Stockton played in the NBA's version of the Run N Shoot. Warren Moon had weapons. Ernie Givens, Drew Hill, and Webster Slaughter were all Pro Bowlers. The analogy still works. Stockton like Moon,put up big numbers, but never won anything. Isaiah willed his team to titles, and no matter how you slice it was the superior player.

[New Jazzy Nets]

Who was Stocktons rodman or laimbeer on the jazz? Dumars? Sure you had stockton and malone but the rest of the cast was average at best.

[Dasher]

Karl Malone is greater than anyone Zeke ever played with. Darrel Griffith, Jeff Hornacek, Mark Eaton etc. They both played with great players. The difference between the two of them was that Zeke had "it" and John did not.

[Da_Realist]

Whats so great about Zeke? he had 4 seasons where he averaged 10 or more assists per game. 5 seasons where he was over 20 PPG. 5 seasons with 2 more steals per game. Yes he does have rings but he also had a great cast. Stockton had 10 seasons where he averaged 10 or more assists per game. 0 seasons of 20 or more PPG. 10 seasons over 2 steals PG. He had Malone yes, but not much else, he had a declining hornacek. But if he didn't have a malone he could've put up more points.

Isiah needs to get his due...

Isiah beats Atlanta (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3BOPOn4bao)

Isiah keeps it close (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wBEcW22a3k)

Isiah's Homecoming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06n3MyvRd7k) (includes a couple of skirmishes between MJ/Laimbeer and Oakley/Mahorn. BTW...Hubie Brown is hilarious. Listen to how he describes the fights... LOL...)

Isiah sends the Bulls home (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEkXAXMFkZg)

Isiah's record breaking 3rd quarter against LA in the 1988 Finals
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jIij5O4RoM)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRNMNU4eJSg)

Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R71UqYPpUWU)

[shaoyut]

at coaching?

[Da_Realist]

Might as well add these too...

No Look Pass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtaPcNDEpc)

Isiah shoot from behind the backboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvJyNbHStXI)

Pick and Roll to Laimbeer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rValoBpefc)

Sending a message (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3nCjHcDg3A)

[Y2Gezee]

Zeke is a cut above Stock IMO.

[Lakerfan1-Iceland]

Thomas. Not even a question about it!
Stocton gets a lot a of hype cause of his stats and they are great no doupt but they are mostly accumulated cause of longetivity. Do we award players for longetivity and staying injury free?
No. Stocton was a wery good PG no question about that and Thomas was just AWESOME Thomas was like a Chris Paul this season even better, im sure Paul will get better but Thomas had that same edge the true mega superstars had and that was this unbelievalbe will to win he made the big plays and big shots leading his team in the playoffs time and time again. The Pistons won 2 nba championships.

Lookin strictly at stats is not accurate cause it depends on How the coach asked you to play and how the offence was set up, Stocton was newer a great man to man defender but he was exelent at playing the passing lanes and reading the game.
Stocton had strong teams but him and Malone jsut didnt have the mental strength and super will to win along with the heart to make the HUGE plays it takes to win in this league. Good team year after year but newer enough.

Thomas led his team and the team was built around him, they got playiers on that team that fit his will to win and leave everything on the floor.

Just watch games from the 80s and 90s and then anyone can see who was the better player. It really isnt even compareble. Stocton like i said gets a lot of false credid for total assists and steals accumulated over his long long career

[KingJay718]

I got that game on tape, where Isiah have Stockton the business in 1992, after Stockton was named on the Dream Team, and Isiah wasn't. I never seen Stockton ether'ed like that on defense.


But yeah, this is a good post, but I gotta go with Isiah, but not by a big margin.

[EuJazz]

Better Point Guard? Stockton.

Better Scorer? Isaiah.

EDIT: And LMAO @ 'Stockton gets hype because of all his stats'.

He has just impossible records to break in terms of steals and assists, not to mention he only missed like 18 games in his career. It's not just 'hype' dumba$$. Paul could get the steals if he stays healthy and keeps up his pace for about 15 years.

Nobody is touching the assists, nobody is averaging 14.5 assists in a season anytime soon, and nobody not named Earvin was a better Point Guard.

[ergen7]

Isiah Thomas was a very good point guard
could score dish the rock and also make clutch shots
there is no comparison with that short short *** John Stockton
Isiah had 2 championships and Stockton 0

[elz]

Better Point Guard? Stockton.

Better Scorer? Isaiah.

EDIT: And LMAO @ 'Stockton gets hype because of all his stats'.

He has just impossible records to break in terms of steals and assists, not to mention he only missed like 18 games in his career. It's not just 'hype' dumba$$. Paul could get the steals if he stays healthy and keeps up his pace for about 15 years.

Nobody is touching the assists, nobody is averaging 14.5 assists in a season anytime soon, and nobody not named Earvin was a better Point Guard.


If you think Paul and Deron might not Avg 14.5 assist
your buggin

While that is no easy feet and is absolutely staggering stat
It is very possible that those to may reach it
and Im honestly gettin use to seeing those to put up 15, 16, 17 and 18 asst

and I would be surprised if Rajon Rondo joins this club pretty soon

[elz]

Isiah Thomas was a very good point guard
could score dish the rock and also make clutch shots
there is no comparison with that short short *** John Stockton
Isiah had 2 championships and Stockton 0

PLUS ISIAH WAS A BETTER DEFENDER
END THREAD

[Lakerfan1-Iceland]

Better Point Guard? Stockton.

Better Scorer? Isaiah.

EDIT: And LMAO @ 'Stockton gets hype because of all his stats'.

He has just impossible records to break in terms of steals and assists, not to mention he only missed like 18 games in his career. It's not just 'hype' dumba$$. Paul could get the steals if he stays healthy and keeps up his pace for about 15 years.

Nobody is touching the assists, nobody is averaging 14.5 assists in a season anytime soon, and nobody not named Earvin was a better Point Guard.


The Jazz lost year after year after year after year in the playoffs.
Stocton may have a great deal of assists but thats cause he played with good shoters and Malone and the system they played in was designed for Stoc to have the ball and make all the passes basically.

I have been watchin NBA basketball for 20 years now and not ever do i remember a season where Stocton was considered the Best PG in the L newer happened until late in his career where he was starting to get more pub but newer even then was he considered the best any season. GP,Kidd,KJ,Timmy,Thomas and on and there were allways some PGs considered better than him.

The most what should i say Durable point guard sure.
Like you said he only missed like 18 games over 18 years or something.
That just means he was healthy he was allways a wery Solid good point guard and a wery decent to good team but thats all he was.
And yes people overrate him cause he played so many years and didnt get hurt and was able to sustain his prime for a longer period of time than most others. Does that make him among the two greatest or something? Hell no of course not.

=John Stocton a wery wery good point guard a wery solid player who didnt take many chances or push the pace ever, was the point guard of a system that was designed for him to have the ball 80% of the time and make the pass to Malone or a shoter. Not a great individual defender. Wery good help defender. Wery smart player.

But him prime 5-8 years or many other PGs.
Magic and Thomas are ways ahead of Stock in every way if you want to win a basketball playoff series. True leaders and winners. Stock was not.

[New Jazzy Nets]

Yeah anyone who says stockton is overrated is just a hater. Stockton isn't above Isiah in one thing? are you kidding me? im not even going to go into this.

[LuCKy_JuNiOr]

Isiah. IMO.

[Psileas]

But him prime 5-8 years or many other PGs.
Magic and Thomas are ways ahead of Stock in every way if you want to win a basketball playoff series. True leaders and winners. Stock was not.

Stockton was not? Yet, he, not Malone, was the most feared player of the Jazz in the final moments of the game, he was the one who sank the series-winner against the Rockets, he sank the game-winner against the Kings, he beat the Bulls in game 1 of the 1998 Finals, he gave the 1988 Lakers a lot of trouble (including a 24-assist game, which is very impressive, regardless of the team scheme) and had a lot of clutch regular season performances. These may still rank below Isiah's ones, but I can't see how Stockton wasn't a leader. And speaking of this, what did Thomas do when his basic teammates hadn't hit their own primes? He missed the playoffs twice as their leader. He got out of the first round twice more. And at the age when he finally won championships (without being better than what he was in the previous years), he had prime Dumars, a little past prime Laimbeer, Aguirre, Vinnie and James Edwards and young Rodman, while Stockton, at the same age, had prime Karl Malone, Bailey, Jeff Malone, past prime Eaton and past prime Griffith. Not that bad overall, but among all these, when did Bailey, Jeff Malone and Griffith play defense? Even Karl Malone wasn't that great a defender back then. And when did Utah boast any center as capable as Laimbeer? It's almost funny to think that 34-year old Eaton was the best they could afford.


PLUS ISIAH WAS A BETTER DEFENDER
END THREAD

Not really. Not even his equal. He just played in a better defensive team, under a coach who cared about defense more than anyone else and had Joe Dumars by him.

[Da_Realist]

Better Point Guard? Stockton.

Better Scorer? Isaiah.


Better winner? Isiah

[B-Jax]

When it came to the Pistons needing a clutch shot or a great performance, Isiah was there and he delivered. John Stockton was a great player and was probably the more talented of the two, but he was not more clutch than Thomas. When it comes to winning, the most talented do not always end up winning it all. If you want to know who the more talented player was, it is John Stockton. If you want to know who the more clutch player is and the more reliable, it is Isiah Thomas. If I need a win, Isiah Thomas is my choice.

[Smokee]

Isaiah as far as talent. Stockton for consistency.

[Solid Snake]

My answer is John Stockton, and I'm gonna be adimittedly very biased. I chose Stockton for the very simple fact that...

...Isiah resembles a man that is mildly retarted personality-wise.

[Chalkmaze]

When it came to the Pistons needing a clutch shot or a great performance, Isiah was there and he delivered. John Stockton was a great player and was probably the more talented of the two, but he was not more clutch than Thomas. When it comes to winning, the most talented do not always end up winning it all. If you want to know who the more talented player was, it is John Stockton. If you want to know who the more clutch player is and the more reliable, it is Isiah Thomas. If I need a win, Isiah Thomas is my choice.

:wtf:

You're saying Stockton was more talented and Thomas more consistent? lol

Guess I see it the opposite. It all comes down to how you define talent I guess.

I have nothing else to contribute, other than I think it depends on what a teams needs are. Thomas would not have made the lacking in talent Jazz and Malone as good as Stockton did, but he would have scored more and taken more players one on one. Stockton is better on a team where there is lots of talent like the Dream Team, or an All-star game.

[TheCord#20]

Thomas was a better scorer and Stockton was a better passer/floor general. Both were all time greats, it's a tough choice to make. If i'm building a from nothing, i would pick Thomas, if i already have scorers then i would choose Stockton.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I started watching the NBA when Thomas was out of his prime, so I'm basing a lot of what I'm saying on comments read over the years, ESPN Classics games and stats.

Thomas had one thing over Stockton, the ability to get hot and become a go to guy when the offence is stagnat. I've seen several times the Jazz in need of a parimeter player creating off the dribble when the regular optios were not working, and the reason why I'm not ready to crown Stockton as the best PG after Magic is that he wasn't able to solve that. He was as great as you can get as far as directing the team, but I want my perimeter star (unless I have two of them, but it's very hard to do) to be able to take over if necessary. I don't think it was mindset problem, though, he just didn't have the game to do it.

OTOH, Thomas wasn't close to Stockton as a floor general, although he wasn't bad, and was a very inefficient scorer all over his career, in fact the Pistons weren't a dominant offensive team with him.
I'm not sure he was better than, say, Kevin Johnson, still he's proven at the higher level and he deserves credit for that.

Overall I'd probably pick Thomas, but I wouldn't be happy having any of them as my best player.

[JtotheIzzo]

Isiah and it is not even close.

Choosing Stockton is RidonKulous

[Manute for Ever!]

One has two rings, one has a statue. I go with dude that has the rings because that is what you play for.

[KempSonics]

Isiah Thomas!

My favorite era of basketball: Bad Boys, Showtime, Bird's celtics, Jordan's rise. Just great stuff.

[Da_Realist]

It's not even close. I've seen Isiah come through for his team many, many, many times. The game is more than just stats. Isiah was a guy that did what was needed to win the game. He was a fierce competitor that would fight, scrap or do anything (sometimes to his detriment) to get a win.

I'm not belittling John Stockton. He was a great player who managed a team very well and has two almost unbreakable records, but he didn't have "it". First of all, Isiah's playmaking ability is underrated. He avg'd over 9 assists a game for his career on a team that for most of his career didn't run the ball. He played hard on the defensive end and he stepped up when it mattered the most. His ability to close out games is highly underrated.

Isiah played in a tougher conference. He led a team that had to beat the Celtics and then the Lakers while holding off the Bulls to win their consecutive championships. That's 3 "dynasties" right there.

Stockton, for all his greatness and another Hall of Famer by his side, couldn't get out of the West until 1997. What does all those assists and steals mean if they don't translate into W's?

[Lebron23]

http://www.prosportsmemorabilia.com/Images/Product/33-51/33-51543-F.jpg

Zeke is a better individual player than Stockton, and team success is one of the criteria in ranking the NBA player on the all time lists.

Beside you don't know anything about the NBA History if you think Prime Stockton is a better player than Prime Isiah Thomas because the 6'1" Zeke won 2 NBA Championship rings in the most competitive era in the history of the League, and he is also a 2 time NBA ALL STAR MVP. ( 1984 and 1986). Zeke also had one of the most memorable playoffs performance against the New York Knicks in the 1984 playoffs after he scored 16 points in the last 94 seconds of regulation to send Game 5 into overtime. ( the infamous Isiah Thomas vs. Bernard King Duel)


During the 1990 NBA Finals Isiah Thomas was voted NBA Finals Most Valuable Player of after averaging 27.6 points per game, 7.0 assists per game, and 5.2 rebounds per game in the series againts the Portland Trailblazers.


Isiah Thomas

Regular Season

19.2 ppg, 9.3 apg, 3.6 rpg, 1.9 spg, 0.3 bpg

Playoffs

20.4 ppg, 8.9 apg, 4.7 rpg, 0.5 bpg, 2.1 spg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html

Honors: Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (2000); NBA champion (1989, '90); NBA Finals MVP (1990); All-NBA First Team (1984, '85, '86); All-NBA Second Team (1983, '87); NBA All-Rookie Team (1982); 12-time NBA All-Star (1982-93); NBA All-Star Game MVP (1984, '86); J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1987); One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996).

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0504/nba_g_stockton_395.jpg


John Stockton


Regular Season

13.1 ppg, 10.5 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.2 bpg, 2.7 rpg

Playoffs

13.4 ppg, 10.1 apg, 0.28 bpg, 1.9 spg, 3.34 rpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html

Honors: All-NBA First Team (1994, '95); All-NBA Second Team (1988, '89, '90, '92, '93, '96); All-NBA Third Team (1991, '97, '99); All-Defensive Second Team (1989, '91, '92, '95, '97); 10-time NBA All-Star; One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History ('96)


I know many people in this board dislike Isiah because he is one of the worst GM in the NBA, but Isiah the basketball player is one of the greatest player of all time, and if not for the emergence of Bird, Jordan and Magic in the 1980's he could very well be a 3X NBA Regular Season MVP, and Prime Isiah Thomas is one of the most explosive PG during his prime.

[bdreason]

Thomas was a better player.


But, if you had a team with lots of talent, and you just needed a facilitator... I could see taking Stockton over Zeke.

[brandonislegend]

isiah = cp3
stockton = nash

decide for yourself :D

[B-Mac]

Isiah

[fos]

Stockton and it's honestly not even close. OMGZ Isiah won more championshipz lmao. Teams win championships. Stockton probably would have had a championship against the GOAT (Jordan) if Malone didn't **** it up. Stockton is the GOAT of point guards.

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0504/nba_g_stockton_395.jpg

[RajonKGcelts]

Zeke has the edge.

[EricForman]

wtf?

one was the best player on two title winning teams that played against Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics.

the other was the second best player on teams that couldn't get pass Kemp's Sonics, Barkley's Suns....


I mean Stock is great, but what the hell?

[dhenk]

wtf?

one was the best player on two title winning teams that played against Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics.

the other was the second best player on teams that couldn't get pass Kemp's Sonics, Barkley's Suns....


I mean Stock is great, but what the hell?

I don

[JtotheIzzo]

Stockton and it's honestly not even close. OMGZ Isiah won more championshipz lmao. Teams win championships. Stockton probably would have had a championship against the GOAT (Jordan) if Malone didn't **** it up. Stockton is the GOAT of point guards.

http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0504/nba_g_stockton_395.jpg

ban this retard now.

or make him watch old NBA games, nonetheless he should be sent to the ISH d-forum.

[DCL]

different styles of play. they created different kinds of chemistries. if you want a conservative/fundamental pg to kick your ass with pick and roll's all night, you go with stockton 15 times out of 10. if you want a pg to run some playground sh!t and dribble you in circles and also score in bunches, you go with zeke. but if you go with the rest of the intangibles like leadership, killer instinct, and aggressiveness, zeke also has the edge. stockton led more by example on the court, but zeke was the locker room voice enforcer, and everyone listened to him like he was the general even though he was the smallest man on the team.

[Dasher]

John Stockton is the Warren Moon of the NBA, he put up a lot of stats in a system geared for him to put them up. He won nothing, and is a tier or two below Zeke. Zeke is a once in a generation point guard. Stockton was a great player, but Milt Palacio, Carlos Arroyo, and Keith McLeod put up stats in Jerry Sloan's system.

[New Jazzy Nets]

Stocktons legacy is being unable to win a ring playing beside a Top 50 alltime player (in both their primes).

Zeke led his team to the Championship twice.

amazing how refs can affect things isn't it?

[Valliant13]

amazing how refs can affect things isn't it?

Yeah...because those lovable Pistons were the darling of the NBA. Ofcourse the leauge wanted them to win over nobodies like Magic and Bird. Yeah, Utah had some tough calls against them...as did the pistons...the Refs didn't make Malone choke away games at the free throw line.

Stockton was an amazing player, but he didn't really have that extra playoff gear. It's the one place Thomas really seperated himself from Stockton. Isiah was a killer...Stockton was a extremely capable player. When two players are this close in ability, titles are a pretty meaningful tie breaker.

[BrianScalabrine]

Stockton because Isiah is racist.

[dnyk1337]

ban this retard now.

or make him watch old NBA games, nonetheless he should be sent to the ISH d-forum.


lmao ISH d-forum... That's a great idea actually.

[momo]

Give stock better teams or give zeek more years and both could easily blow the other one out of the h2o in the argument. They are VERY different players.

Personally I disliked Isiah when he was active as much as I can dislike someone I don't know and thought he lacked class. Stock, I mostly disliked his team. If it is pick or die, I would pick zeek, but as far as greatness all time it is more stock... he is like reading a textbook on the position.

Magic and KJ are both better.

[Piercethetruth]

Zeke

[Chicago76]

Thomas was a better scorer and Stockton was a better passer/floor general. Both were all time greats, it's a tough choice to make. If i'm building a from nothing, i would pick Thomas, if i already have scorers then i would choose Stockton.

Since this got bumped up today, I thought I'd say this is a really good comment. I honestly think that Thomas would have been a better point guard for Utah than Stockton. He would could have taken on more of the scoring burden and gotten out and run w/ Malone.

But I also think Stockton would have been a better point guard for Detroit than Thomas. Detroit really only needed a facilitator. Sure, they were supposed to by the "Bad Boys" but that team had a lot of scorers: Dumars, Johnson, Laimbeer, Dantley/Aguirre. A 90s vintage Stockton would have been an awesome "true PG" on that team--making sure Dantley got his touches and Dumars got his too. Aguirre never would have become a Piston on that team.

[Da_Realist]

Watching the 90 Finals right now. I forgot how Isiah abused Terry Porter. I mean that sincerely. Isiah had one of the all-time great Finals performances.

27.6 pts, 7.0 asts, 5.2 rbs, 1.6 stls and 54% fg. Not bad for a 6'1" point guard! :eek:

[Dasher]

One of the reasons that Zeke is greater than Stock is that he was able to control and harness the personalities of Rodman, Salley, Laimbeer, and Mahorn. Zeke's practice leadership rivals Jordan's and Bird's. The Pistons could not get past the Lakers or Celtics, what did Zeke do? He went and studied the Lakers from the inside, and applied the lessons he learned there to the Pistons. What did Stock do? He went home and worked on his game, but he did not work on the psychology of winning like the Smiling Assassain.

[Sir Charles]

This the Resume :)

[B]Isiah

Superior Scorer
Superior Own Shot Designer
Better Dribbler (althugh Stock was a Great One Too)
Better 1 on 1 Player
Better Driver to the Basket
Better Overal Full Court Creative Passer
Better Rebounder
Better Leader
Better Clutch Player Offensively (although Stock was Clutch too but not "As Clutch")
Better Shot Blocker
Faster
Quicker
More Agil
Stronger
Higher Leaper

*Stock was Clutch, Clutcher than Malone could Dream Off :confusedshrug:

*Isiah`s FG% is Lower Because he played in a Tougher Defending Slow Paced Conference Withy hardly Any Offensive Talent but Adrian Dantley initially. Stockton had A Top 5 PF in his Prime and Malone`s Prime and through the Pick & Roll Systems he would also get a passes back by Malone for easy open set shots. Zeeke Had do Do Everything On His Own Offensively. Be the Creator for his Teamates and Be Himself the Focal Scoring Point.

Isiah was usually the Main Scoring Focal Point in the Late 80s and Could Take Games Over Offensively On His Own Differently from Stockton.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Defender`s They Where Both Pretty Much Equal but Il Give the Edge to Stockton in Steals in "HIS PRIME" (till about ages 32-33) but [COLOR="Blue"]As A 1 On 1 Defender To Block Shots and Contain The Shooter I

[Thethirdguy]

Isiah. And he didnt even have a malone to make him look better.

[cliffhagan]

isnt dribbling with your left hand a fundamental?? Didnt see Stockton do that too often.

Please tell me your kidding...


Players don't win championships; teams win championships.

Would you rather have Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson or Karl Malone, Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, and Greg Ostertag???

Isiah had a much better supporting cast. Stockton was definitely the better player. Isiah was a better scorer, but that was about it. Stockton was leaps and bounds a better defender and lights years a better playmaker.

[Collie]

Please tell me your kidding...


Players don't win championships; teams win championships.

Would you rather have Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson or Karl Malone, Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, and Greg Ostertag???

Isiah had a much better supporting cast. Stockton was definitely the better player. Isiah was a better scorer, but that was about it. Stockton was leaps and bounds a better defender and lights years a better playmaker.

Thinking about it... I'd actually take 2time MVP Karl Malone (lol supporting cast) and Jeff Hornacek over any of 3 or 4 of those Pistons guys... :oldlol:

But yeah, the Pistons were generally deeper and tougher, but Isiah was also a player who impacted the game more than Stockton and like a guy said, he had that higher gear that he brought out when needed.

[inoshishi]

John Stockton is the Warren Moon of the NBA, he put up a lot of stats in a system geared for him to put them up. He won nothing, and is a tier or two below Zeke. Zeke is a once in a generation point guard. Stockton was a great player, but Milt Palacio, Carlos Arroyo, and Keith McLeod put up stats in Jerry Sloan's system.

Absolute rubbish.

Milt Palocio averaged 2.7 assists for the Jazz

Carlos Arroyo averaged 3.9 assists for the Jazz.

Keith McLeod averaged 3.3 assists for the Jazz.

How, exactly, did Jerry Sloan's "system" account for the fact that Stockton has 7 of the 9 1000 assist seasons in NBA history? Deron Williams put up great numbers last year with 862 assists (10.5 per game), 3rd in the league. Do you want to know how many times Stockton had more than 862 assists? 9 times. How many times did Isiah Thomas do it? Twice.

The idea that the "system" accounted for Stockton's high assist totals is absurd. The Jazz during that era were one of the slowest paced teams in the league. Only once in the 16 years that Stockton was the Jazz's starting point guard were the Jazz in the top half of the league in pace. The two years that Stockton averaged over 14 assists per game, the Jazz were 21st and 20th out of 27 teams in pace. Compare that with Nash. The three years that Nash averaged 11 assists per game, the Suns were 1st, 3rd, and 4th in the league in pace. The one year that Isiah averaged over 13 assists per game, the Pistons were 4th in the league in pace.

One more stat to chew on: Stockton's assist numbers dwindled some as he aged. However, in Stockton's final year at age 40, he led the league in assists per minute. He still had it at age 40, he just didn't play as many minutes.

Isiah Thomas was a fabulous player. So was Stockton. In my mind they are the two best point guards in NBA history under 6'5". Isiah was a better scorer, Stockton was a better passer.

Edit: Isiah was a better scorer only because he chose to be so. Stockton never needed to be because of Malone, but he could have if he wanted or needed to be. Stockton was a much more efficient score than Isiah. Isiah's career field goal percentage: 45.2%. Stockton's career field goal percentage: 51.5%.

[hito da god]

i'd take stockton as my starting PG over zeke any day. zeke scored more, but stockton was better in every other way imo. he's my favorite point guard of all time after magic

all-time leader in assists and steals, and it aint even close in either category :applause:

[Collie]

Stockton was a good scorer, but I don't think he could have been the scorer Isiah was, even if wanted to be... He was a good shooter, and drove well, but Isiah was one of the most unstoppable scoring guards in NBA history. C'mon this guy scored 25 points in a single Finals quarter when his team needed it the most.

[ZMonkey11]

Isiah.

[Younggrease]

i'd take stockton as my starting PG over zeke any day. zeke scored more, but stockton was better in every other way imo. he's my favorite point guard of all time after magic

all-time leader in assists and steals, and it aint even close in either category :applause:

when things went down and someone needed to make a play Zeke did, Stockton couldnt...Zeke had enough juice where I think the 90's bad boys could have took one of Jordan's 6 rings....

[Da_Realist]

Absolute rubbish.

Milt Palocio averaged 2.7 assists for the Jazz

Carlos Arroyo averaged 3.9 assists for the Jazz.

Keith McLeod averaged 3.3 assists for the Jazz.

How, exactly, did Jerry Sloan's "system" account for the fact that Stockton has 7 of the 9 1000 assist seasons in NBA history? Deron Williams put up great numbers last year with 862 assists (10.5 per game), 3rd in the league. Do you want to know how many times Stockton had more than 862 assists? 9 times. How many times did Isiah Thomas do it? Twice.

The idea that the "system" accounted for Stockton's high assist totals is absurd. The Jazz during that era were one of the slowest paced teams in the league. Only once in the 16 years that Stockton was the Jazz's starting point guard were the Jazz in the top half of the league in pace. The two years that Stockton averaged over 14 assists per game, the Jazz were 21st and 20th out of 27 teams in pace. Compare that with Nash. The three years that Nash averaged 11 assists per game, the Suns were 1st, 3rd, and 4th in the league in pace. The one year that Isiah averaged over 13 assists per game, the Pistons were 4th in the league in pace.

One more stat to chew on: Stockton's assist numbers dwindled some as he aged. However, in Stockton's final year at age 40, he led the league in assists per minute. He still had it at age 40, he just didn't play as many minutes.

Isiah Thomas was a fabulous player. So was Stockton. In my mind they are the two best point guards in NBA history under 6'5". Isiah was a better scorer, Stockton was a better passer.

Edit: Isiah was a better scorer only because he chose to be so. Stockton never needed to be because of Malone, but he could have if he wanted or needed to be. Stockton was a much more efficient score than Isiah. Isiah's career field goal percentage: 45.2%. Stockton's career field goal percentage: 51.5%.

No, no, no :no: You were doing great until you got to the bolded part. Stockton could have never been the scorer Isiah was. Also, Stocktons fg% would have gone down some if he needed to score as much as Isiah.

[mlh1981]

when things went down and someone needed to make a play Zeke did, Stockton couldnt...Zeke had enough juice where I think the 90's bad boys could have took one of Jordan's 6 rings....


You are forgetting his game winning shot he had against Houston in the 1997 NBA playoffs that helped propel them to the finals.

[steve]

You are forgetting his game winning shot he had against Houston in the 1997 NBA playoffs that helped propel them to the finals.
I think he means more in the sense of carrying the team. Stockton could make a big shot and was clutch when he needed to be, but he couldn't carry a team for an extended stretch. Stockton was consistent, almost to a fault. During his prime, you knew he was going to get almost exactly his average every night, not much higher and not much lower. In his entire career (1504 games) he only scored 30+ points ten times. Most of the all time great point guards every now and then would step up and take over the scoring when their team needed it but Stockton couldn't or wouldn't.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

fwiw,
Thomas was All-NBA (1st or 2nd team) only 5 times.
Stockton got it 8 times.

Stockton was not a good defender...he was a GREAT defender. Right up there with GP amongst the best defensive PGs of all time.

[demons2005]

IT he just had more of "it." Stockton was good but do you really think he'll even be the best PG in Jazz history after Deron is done? no.

Who was the better president? Teddy Roosevelt or Franklin Roosevelt? longevity can only get you so far

[steve]

fwiw,
Thomas was All-NBA (1st or 2nd team) only 5 times.
Stockton got it 8 times.

Stockton was not a good defender...he was a GREAT defender. Right up there with GP amongst the best defensive PGs of all time.
You don't think it was curious that he was left off the All NBA teams the three years that the Pistons made the finals?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

You don't think it was curious that he was left off the All NBA teams the three years that the Pistons made the finals?

who was selected in front of him? Magic probably. Who else?

edit: nevermind, I looked it up. Thomas was not even getting 3rd-team consideration. Magic, Stockton, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson during those years. Joe Dumars got 3rd-team All-NBA the year that Thomas won Finals MVP.

[steve]

who was selected in front of him? Magic probably. Who else?
You can't bother yourself to look it up?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

You can't bother yourself to look it up?

read prior post again.

[steve]

read prior post again.
So, I'll ask again, going back and looking at those players seasons and looking at the seasons Isiah had between 88-90, isn't it just a tad bit curious that he wasn't even included on the third teams (in 89 and 90 at least)?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

So, I'll ask again, going back and looking at those players seasons and looking at the seasons Isiah had between 88-90, isn't it just a tad bit curious that he wasn't even included on the third teams (in 89 and 90 at least)?

no.
are you suggesting a conspiracy?
looks like his teammate beat him out for 3rd-team honors.

[steve]

no.
are you suggesting a conspiracy?
looks like his teammate beat him out for 3rd-team honors.
Who scored less than Thomas and wasn't the main engine of that Pistons team but was well liked by the media members who declare the All NBA teams. The same media members who took Thomas to ask after the '87 playoffs (interestingly enough the last year he made All NBA) when Thomas made the supposedly insulting remarks towards Bird.

[mattreis62]

Thomas easily. He was the best player on back-to-back championship teams. Switch him with prime Stockton and the Pistons don't win either of those titles. How many other guards besides Thomas have led their team to a title without a great big man?

[ZMonkey11]

Thomas easily. He was the best player on back-to-back championship teams. Switch him with prime Stockton and the Pistons don't win either of those titles. How many other guards besides Thomas have led their team to a title without a great big man?
:applause: :applause: :applause:

Just end this argument. Isiah is better period.

People on Stockton's nuts need to get a reality check. It's called pick and roll. Stockton and Malone perfected it to a T. If Isiah had Malone on his team instead of elbowing him, he would have had back to back to back to back to back to back championships.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Magic > Oscar > Isiah > Bob > Chris > Walt > John...

[chopchop20]

How can the #1 stealer of all time by a margin of 30% not have "great" defense?

Consider the fact that they didn't keep track of steals back in the day.

[Collie]

Isiah averaged 13.9 apg at one point in his career. He was almost as good a passer as Stockton was, but the Pistons asked him to be a scorer later on (Dantley had been traded at that point)

[joshwake]

Stockton is a top 25 player ever...but he isnt as good a player as Isiah. He didnt have that extra gear Isiah had and because of that when a guy on the other squad turned it up a notch he couldnt answer. Isiah on the other hand could amp it up as well when needed and that ability to carry his team when needed is what seperates the two players. And that is no small seperation its the difference between 2 rings and 0 rings.

Few people realize how good Stockton actually was at taking over games. It did not happen that often but when it did it was almost always in the playoffs when Malone was having a bad game and Hornaceck's shot was off. He really could take over a game just as well, if not better than Zeke, that just wasn't the way he ran the team though, it was his last option.

In terms of basketball talent there is no doubt that Zeke was superior. In my bias opinion though I would take Stockton any day. There are only a handful of players that you could take away the entire coaching staff and ask them to run everything and not miss a beat.

If you wanna make the hardware argument the Jazz would have two titles if it wasn't for some of the greatest NBA teams in history. Honestly, Pair the 97 and 98 Jazz up against maybe 90% of the teams that have come out of the east in NBA histroy and they would have two rings.

[L.Kizzle]

Magic > Oscar > Isiah > Bob > Chris > Walt > John...
Who's Chris, not Paul right? Dude had played 3 seasons, he's not better than Terry Porter yet.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Who's Chris, not Paul right? Dude had played 3 seasons, he's not better than Terry Porter yet.

Chris is Chris Paul indeed, who's now considered the No.5 PG in NBA franchise history and he's actually already pretty much close to Isiah Thomas and Bob Cousy. Walt is referred to Walt “Clyde” Frazier.

[joshwake]

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]Chris is Chris Paul indeed, who's now considered the No.5 PG in NBA franchise history and he's actually already pretty much close to Isiah Thomas and Bob Cousy. Walt is referred to Walt

[haji_d_robertas]

Isiah Thomas vs John Stockton who was better?


They were both better.

[willds09]

They were both better.
They're both great, but isiah was the man, who beaten larry, mj 3 times in a row, magic in the finals, even clyde drexler, on tha other hand stockton couldn't put up numbers like isiah, and defeated old hakeem, and barkely to go to 97 finals, but in 98 wcf against tha lakers, that was malone's year, plus kobe was still young and shaq was easily intimidated by. Malone, d-rob, hakeem and others.

[DaRondoStopper]

Michael Jordan
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[DaRondoStopper]

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]Chris is Chris Paul indeed, who's now considered the No.5 PG in NBA franchise history and he's actually already pretty much close to Isiah Thomas and Bob Cousy. Walt is referred to Walt

[stephanieg]

Part of being ranked highly is being on a really good team so you can be remembered years later. Does anyone not on drugs call Larry Bird or Magic the GOAT of their position if they were stranded on 30 win teams their entire careers? Nope. But they'd still be Bird and Magic.

As for this particular comparison, the Pistons were among the deepest title teams ever and, if they had won it, the Jazz were one of the shallowest. It's a minor scandal they even made it to the Finals twice. They also fielded, arguably, the worst starting center in modern NBA Finals history. Maybe there's one worse but I can't think of one off hand. His badness is even more absurd considering he had Stockton feeding him the ball. If he could just be average and not actively hurting his team then think how many pre-canned story lines could possibly change. MJ being the greatest winner never letting his team lose blah blah, Malone choking, all gone because their center isn't a white Kwame Brown.

As an aside, have you guys ever actually, you know, sat down and watched those two Jazz-Bulls Finals? Absolutely brutal. The only reason to watch is to see MJ carry his old, tired team. No wonder the ratings went down after that. People went in with high expectations and watched "the two best" teams struggle to put up 80 points. There's a difference between good defense and terrible offense. And combining both is something else.

OK, so, back to Isiah vs. Stockton. Isiah is far flashier and sexier for sure. The average point guard gets .95 points per shot and Isiah gets .93, but let's not let that disillusion us from saying Isiah is a far more gifted scorer since that's the prepackaged line. If AI can average 41-42% for several seasons and be called an all time great scorer then Isiah is playing a different game entirely, for sure.

Of course, to be fair, Stockton's steals stat is completely overblown. We're talking about a low total stat here. It's impressive he was able to average 2.2 steals a game for so long but this doesn't impact the game much compared to a guy who "only" averages 1.1 steals. It's not as if Stockton was a defensive demon who was just taking it away from people 10 times a game or something. As far as I'm concerned neither player is that good on defense. They're not terrible either. They're just OK.

Then again, Stockton averaged one less turn over a game than Isiah. So he's a whole two possessions better, per game. :D

I think the gentlemen who said it depends on what your team needs is correct.

[joshwake]

They're both great, but isiah was the man, who beaten larry, mj 3 times in a row, magic in the finals, even clyde drexler, on tha other hand stockton couldn't put up numbers like isiah, and defeated old hakeem, and barkely to go to 97 finals, but in 98 wcf against tha lakers, that was malone's year, plus kobe was still young and shaq was easily intimidated by. Malone, d-rob, hakeem and others.

It's funny how ppl all consider prime Stockton to be the Stockton in the late 90s when he was on the downside of his career. His prime was late 80s early 90s.

[willds09]

It's funny how ppl all consider prime Stockton to be the Stockton in the late 90s when he was on the downside of his career. His prime was late 80s early 90s.
But his team didn't had that much success in late 80s early 90s

[Heretik32]

But his team didn't had that much success in late 80s early 90s

So Kobe's prime ended 6 years ago?

[willds09]

So Kobe's prime ended 6 years ago?no, besides the point, john stockton was never on isisah's level, stockton was great, but not that great, and comparing stockton to kobe is plain stupid,if stockton was in his prime, then he was in his prime, but that doesn't mean he's better than zeke

[JtotheIzzo]

Zeke, and this thread should have been over 139 posts ago.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

MJ being the greatest winner never letting his team lose blah blah, Malone choking, all gone because their center isn't a white Kwame Brown.
I always found that ostertag, just like Bradley, was actually really underrated.
He was no star, but he was a big body, good defender and great shotblocker.
You think having Longley in his place would have changed much?
Hornaceck, Russell, Heisley, S.Anderson, Carr, Morris, Foster... that was a decent rotation, the reason Stockton and Malone didn't win is because they weren't the best 1-2 combo in the league.

[Heretik32]

I always found that ostertag, just like Bradley, was actually really underrated.

Nah, Ostertag is rated just right: A fat untalented blob with next to no mobility and decent shotblocking and rebounding skills.

Thing was that Utah's system needs exactly that fat untalented blob with some defensive presence. Nothing more, nothing less. So he fit the bill perfectly.

[snakerattle79]

Scoringwise its Isiah but on team effectiveness its John Stockton

[willds09]

Scoringwise its Isiah but on team effectiveness its John Stocktonisiah had team effectiveness too, isiah had both, john didnt

[Heretik32]

isiah had team effectiveness too, isiah had both, john didnt

Interesting how you can have a career average of 13 PPG on above 50 % shooting and nearly 40 % 3PT when you don't score effectively.

[willds09]

Interesting how you can have a career average of 13 PPG on above 50 % shooting and nearly 40 % 3PT when you don't score effectively.
Yep 13 ppg that's a lot, stockton is great but, isiah excel at more things, two rings, oh yea stockton always had malone, always

[shawbryant]

Stockton is white. so you know what I mean.

[Heretik32]

Yep 13 ppg that's a lot, stockton is great but, isiah excel at more things, two rings, oh yea stockton always had malone, always

You're saying Stockton didn't have Isiah's scoring effectiveness, I show he that actually he was more effective with the shots he took and you tell me Isiah's got two rings and Stockton had Malone. Which has nothing do to with his scoring effectiveness (well it actually does, but I won't tell you why).

How about you actually discuss things and stop evading?

[willds09]

You're saying Stockton didn't have Isiah's scoring effectiveness, I show he that actually he was more effective with the shots he took and you tell me Isiah's got two rings and Stockton had Malone. Which has nothing do to with his scoring effectiveness (well it actually does, but I won't tell you why).

How about you actually discuss things and stop evading?
U are a funny guy, first of all the topic says who's better, not who's more effective, all around reguardless isiah is better, stockton don't have the heart that isiah had, isiah has beaten great players in their primes in the playoffs, and in the finals against mj, magic, and bird, can stockton do that??? Hell no

[Heretik32]

stockton don't have the heart that isiah had

Now I bet you money that even those guys that say Isiah's the better player won't argue that Stockton didn't have heart. A black heart, maybe, but that guy was determined to the point of being scary.

[willds09]

Now I bet you money that even those guys that say Isiah's the better player won't argue that Stockton didn't have heart. A black heart, maybe, but that guy was determined to the point of being scary.
What?? Nope not more than zeke, stockton couldn't be that scary, take malone of the jazz, what will happen then? Tell me

[Heretik32]

What?? Nope not more than zeke, stockton couldn't be that scary, take malone of the jazz, what will happen then? Tell me

Put Isiah on a Jazz team without Malone. Tell me what happens.
Put Stockton on the 89 Pistons. They still win the title.

[Dasher]

Put Isiah on a Jazz team without Malone. Tell me what happens.
Put Stockton on the 89 Pistons. They still win the title.Zeke still wins games with Mark Eaton, Jeff Malone, Darrell Griffith, Thurl Bailey etc. The Pistons do not win with Stockton, do a little research on the Bad Boy Pistons. Zeke was just as important off the court as he was on it. Zeke fashioned that us against the world mentality that they needed to win, and protected the younger players on the team. An example of this is when he took on the "Larry is overrated because he is white heat" off of Dennis Rodman.

[trithechronic]

Zeke would be a is a much better player. Isiah was not a great team player and that hindered his total potential. I was reading on http://www.gotfanatics.com that Isiah had issues with his pride and attitude getting in the way during practices.

[willds09]

Put Isiah on a Jazz team without Malone. Tell me what happens.
Put Stockton on the 89 Pistons. They still win the title.
That's tha most dumbest, retarted thing I heard in my life, mj will bust stockton down like he always did, and what u mean isiah on the jazz without malone? That makes no sense, cuz I know u don't want him with malone, cuz u know that's too damn scary, especially if it was 94 and 95, that's still two rings for the isiah reguardless, stockton wouldn't even reach the finals.

[Heretik32]

Zeke still wins games with Mark Eaton, Jeff Malone, Darrell Griffith, Thurl Bailey etc.

Does he win a title with them, though? Does he lead a roster of Ostertag, Russel, Hornacek and some mediocre forward to a title against Jordan's Bulls?

Cause that's exactly what he has to do if someone tells me "Isiah > Stockton! Take away Malone and see what becomes of Stockton!".

And for the record, I don't thing Stockton was a better player than Isiah. He was a different player.

[Heretik32]

That's tha most dumbest, retarted thing I heard in my life, mj will bust stockton down like he always did, and what u mean isiah on the jazz without malone? That makes no sense, cuz I know u don't want him with malone, cuz u know that's too damn scary, especially if it was 94 and 95, that's still two rings for the isiah reguardless, stockton wouldn't even reach the finals.

You don't read your own posts before submitting them? Well, sounds plausible considering the mess you keep spewing out.

[willds09]

You don't read your own posts before submitting them? Well, sounds plausible considering the mess you keep spewing out.Lol yea my fault for spelling incorrectly, but u know I'm right about isiah, that's why the only thing u have to say was how bad I spell some words, u just have to accept that stockton couldn't do it by himself

[willds09]

Does he win a title with them, though? Does he lead a roster of Ostertag, Russel, Hornacek and some mediocre forward to a title against Jordan's Bulls?

Cause that's exactly what he has to do if someone tells me "Isiah > Stockton! Take away Malone and see what becomes of Stockton!".

And for the record, I don't thing Stockton was a better player than Isiah. He was a different player.
Does he win in 94 and 95? Hell yes

[Heretik32]

Lol yea my fault for spelling incorrectly, but u know I'm right about isiah, that's why the only thing u have to say was how bad I spell some words, u just have to accept that stockton couldn't do it by himself

Neither could Isiah. No player can win anything by himself, see also: James, Lebron. Isiah had the perfect team in his Bad Boys.

[Heretik32]

Does he win in 94 and 95? Hell yes

Just to summarise cause you seem fond of understanding only half of the discussion:

Isiah Thomas wins two titles in 94 und 95 with the Jazz roster of 94 and 95 without Karl Malone?

[willds09]

Neither could Isiah. No player can win anything by himself, see also: James, Lebron. Isiah had the perfect team in his Bad Boys.
Lebron is not retired yet, isiah didn't have that dominated sidekick on his side, but stockton did, so what makes u think stockton can do better?

[Dasher]

Does he win a title with them, though? Does he lead a roster of Ostertag, Russel, Hornacek and some mediocre forward to a title against Jordan's Bulls?

Cause that's exactly what he has to do if someone tells me "Isiah > Stockton! Take away Malone and see what becomes of Stockton!".

And for the record, I don't thing Stockton was a better player than Isiah. He was a different player.I pointed to you the talent that Stockton played with besides Karl Malone. Stockton actually played with better players during his career.

Adrian Dantley:HOF
Darrell Griffith:ROY
Jeff Malone:All Star
Mark Eaton:DPOY
Thurl Bailey:All Rookie 1st Team
Kelly Tripucka:All Star
Rickey Greene:All Star

Arguing that Stockton is greater than Zeke is an insult. I have Stockton below Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, Earl Monroe, and Lenny Wilkens.

[willds09]

Just to summarise cause you seem fond of understanding only half of the discussion:

Isiah Thomas wins two titles in 94 und 95 with the Jazz roster of 94 and 95 without Karl Malone?
Let me ask u this, why isiah couldn't have malone on his team? Because where would malone actually be?

[Human Error]

Isiah Thomas.

[Kiddlovesnets]

:roll: At CP3 already being a top 5 PG of all time. He's not even head and toes above Deron. He has yet to really accomplish anything and he's already ahead of people like Stockton, Cousy, Kidd, Payton, Nash, Tiny etc.?

You may argue CP3 is not a top 5 PG of all time yet, but what's the hell with the statement that Deron is somehow better than him?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[biisak]

You may argue CP3 is not a top 5 PG of all time yet, but what's the hell with the statement that Deron is somehow better than him?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

That

[Heretik32]

Adrian Dantley:HOF
Darrell Griffith:ROY
Jeff Malone:All Star
Mark Eaton:DPOY
Thurl Bailey:All Rookie 1st Team
Kelly Tripucka:All Star
Rickey Greene:All Star

Dantley played in UTA until 85/86. Stockton was drafted in 84 and wasn't even a starter by 86.
Jeff Malone was an all star in 86 and 87, three years before he got on the Jazz.
I won't argue against Mark Eaton for the obvious reasons:D
Tripucka spent to horrible seasons with the Jazz, again at the beginning of Stockton's career. I didn't even know he was an all star.
And thanks for picking Rickey Greene as well... who was Utah's starting PG before Stockton.

So... what exactly were you trying to tell me by picking those players?

[Kiddlovesnets]

[QUOTE=biisak]That

[Heretik32]

Let me ask u this, why isiah couldn't have malone on his team? Because where would malone actually be?

Ok, peabrain, once again for you:

You tell me "How good would Stockton be without Malone".

I tell you "not very good with the team he'd have then, but I ask you how good Isiah would be with that team".

Understood now? I'm slowly getting fed up with you.

[willds09]

Ok, peabrain, once again for you:

You tell me "How good would Stockton be without Malone".

I tell you "not very good with the team he'd have then, but I ask you how good Isiah would be with that team".

Understood now? I'm slowly getting fed up with you.
Once again u are making no sense, I know your mad as hell, because I shredded u on this convo, and if isiah couldn't lead tha jazz, and we all know stockton couldn't do it, so u absolutely made no point, jus made yourself like dumb that's all

[Heretik32]

Once again u are making no sense, I know your mad as hell, because I shredded u on this convo, and if isiah couldn't lead tha jazz, and we all know stockton couldn't do it, so u absolutely made no point, jus made yourself like dumb that's all

Ok, let's stop this here. I should get paid to supervise people like you. Just move right on.

[willds09]

Ok, let's stop this here. I should get paid to supervise people like you. Just move right on.
Ok no harm man,just an innocent argument, it will be ok

[Batchoy]

Two of the greatest point guards to play the game, but I have to give the nod to Isiah.

[Luigi]

Big market players will always be remembered as better than small market teams. We can all pretend it is for basketball reasons, but it is really about celebrity more than anything now that they are retired.

[MastahX]

Better overall player (complete game aka better player) goes to Stockton hands down.

If you think otherwise, your either too young or too dumb.

/end thread

[Rekindled]

Better overall player (complete game aka better player) goes to Stockton hands down.

If you think otherwise, your either too young or too dumb.

/end thread


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Rekindled]

isiah on a gimpy leg was a better player than a healthy stockton.

[willds09]

Better overall player (complete game aka better player) goes to Stockton hands down.

If you think otherwise, your either too young or too dumb.

/end thread
Yes this is funny as hell, stockton can frustrate mj and bird right, yea right, not even close

[Kobe Wins!]

Stockton by far. Thomas ruined the Knicks.

[joshwake]

I pointed to you the talent that Stockton played with besides Karl Malone. Stockton actually played with better players during his career.

Adrian Dantley:HOF
Darrell Griffith:ROY
Jeff Malone:All Star
Mark Eaton:DPOY
Thurl Bailey:All Rookie 1st Team
Kelly Tripucka:All Star
Rickey Greene:All Star

Arguing that Stockton is greater than Zeke is an insult. I have Stockton below Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, Earl Monroe, and Lenny Wilkens.

compare apples to apples. You can't just pull different jazz players from different eras and try and tell people stockton was no good because he never won a title with any of them.

There are alot of things that do not go on a stat sheet, particularly defensive stats and true ability to make your teamates better. This is one of the areas where Stockton has the true edge imo. I remember a story a guy did in the Salt Lake Tribune about 5 years ago on how just about every single player that came to the Jazz via trade from 87 to about 99 had a noticeable increase in production. The article was called "the Jazz effect" but I cant seem to find it in any archive. Anyway the writer attributed it to coaching, overall organization, Malone, but mostly he attributed it to stockton.

It's funny cuz looking at stats since Stockton retired of traded players to the jazz, you don't really see anything noticeable.

[willds09]

compare apples to apples. You can't just pull different jazz players from different eras and try and tell people stockton was no good because he never won a title with any of them.

There are alot of things that do not go on a stat sheet, particularly defensive stats and true ability to make your teamates better. This is one of the areas where Stockton has the true edge imo. I remember a story a guy did in the Salt Lake Tribune about 5 years ago on how just about every single player that came to the Jazz via trade from 87 to about 99 had a noticeable increase in production. The article was called "the Jazz effect" but I cant seem to find it in any archive. Anyway the writer attributed it to coaching, overall organization, Malone, but mostly he attributed it to stockton.

It's funny cuz looking at stats since Stockton retired of traded players to the jazz, you don't really see anything noticeable.
But how is stockton better? Isiah didn't make his teammates better? Like I said stockton would never had tha balls to do what isiah did, especially in the postseason where it matters the most

[joshwake]

isiah on a gimpy leg was a better player than a healthy stockton.

even though the Stockton everyone is comparing prime Zeke to is the Stockton on the downside of his career and even post knee surgery.

The Jazz, as a team, peaked after Stockton peaked (at least physically). Thats the reason there are all these stupid arguments that Stockton was nowhere near Zeke in terms of scoring capability. Check out his numbers in his physical prime. Late 80s early 90s, roughly 17 ppg, 13+ apg, ~3 spg all that time around %52. That is pure efficency and what a true PG does.

When the Jazz as a team peaked Stockton was a different and older player, he was still capable of putting up 20+ a night but definatly not on a regular basis. He ran the offense through his bigs like he was supposed to.

[willds09]

Stockton by far. Thomas ruined the Knicks.
We are talking about as a player, not as a coach

[joshwake]

But how is stockton better? Isiah didn't make his teammates better? Like I said stockton would never had tha balls to do what isiah did, especially in the postseason where it matters the most

Find me one single god damn game where stockton choked in the post season. You never watched him.

If you place blame on anyone ever to be a part of the jazz organization for not winning a title, Stockton would be DEAD LAST. If you disagree you never really saw him play.

[willds09]

Find me one single god damn game where stockton choked in the post season. You never watched him.

If you place blame on anyone ever to be a part of the jazz organization for not winning a title, Stockton would be DEAD LAST. If you disagree you never really saw him play.
What??? I never said stockton was the blame, I'm saying stockton will never be great than isiah was, he just wasn't good enough to throw down with the legends, especially by himself

[joshwake]

What??? I never said stockton was the blame, I'm saying stockton will never be great than isiah was, he just wasn't good enough to throw down with the legends, especially by himself

If you want to get technical, If I had to rate one as a better "basketball player" (something we can only measure by stats and physical ability) I don't think there is any argument that Zeke has to take it.

However, If I were to make a team I would take Stockton 10 times out of 10 and not think twice about it.

Do you honestly think you could find a credible source, either NBA player or analyst that would not consider Stockton a "legend" ??? (well other than zeke.. lol,, oh wait, nevermind I said "credible")

[willds09]

If you want to get technical, If I had to rate one as a better "basketball player" (something we can only measure by stats and physical ability) I don't think there is any argument that Zeke has to take it.

However, If I were to make a team I would take Stockton 10 times out of 10 and not think twice about it.

Do you honestly think you could find a credible source, either NBA player or analyst that would not consider Stockton a "legend" ??? (well other than zeke.. lol,, oh wait, nevermind I said "credible")
Stockton is a great team player, but hands down people would rather take zeke to help them win a title

[Rekindled]

Stockton is a great team player, but hands down people would rather take zeke to help them win a title

Yeah which he did , twice, over the bulls in ecf. Stock lost twice to the bulls.

[Da_Realist]

Watch the 1990 NBA Finals. Zeke put on a clinic. Especially game 4. :eek:

[iggy>]

zeke>

[Gotterdammerung]

Isiah Thomas was great no doubt, but I would go with John Stockton. He was a PG in the classic mold: primarily a passer who shot the ball only when necessary. He could change speed off the dribble better than almost anyone, jump into the defender while shooting and drawing fouls, hit open shots, especially in the clutch, and a sneakily effective on the offensive boards. His decision making on pick n rolls was nearly perfect, and he seemed to enjoy setting screens with elbows out. He may have gambled on steals or chase the ball more than necessary, and get suckered by ball-penetration, but his defense was solid. It's too bad he was on a team that grinded it out, meaning he couldn't perform fast breaks as much as possible. But when the Jazz did run, his judgment was almost perfect. IN other words, Stockton made Karl Malone much better than he actually was. Only Jerry West, Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson were better point guards.

I would put Isiah Thomas after Walt "Clyde" Frazier, Dennis Johnson, and Lenny Wilkens, in the following group of great pgs: Slater Martin, Dick McGuire, Bob Cousy, Guy Rodgers, Bob Davies, Jason Kidd.

[Da_Realist]

I would put Isiah Thomas after Walt "Clyde" Frazier, Dennis Johnson, and Lenny Wilkens, in the following group of great pgs: Slater Martin, Dick McGuire, Bob Cousy, Guy Rodgers, Bob Davies, Jason Kidd.

Jason Kidd??? I never saw those other guys play...but Jason Kidd? You've got to be Kidd-ing. :rolleyes:

[willds09]

Yeah which he did , twice, over the bulls in ecf. Stock lost twice to the bulls.
My point exactly, u can't find a better reason than that

[willds09]

Jason Kidd??? I never saw those other guys play...but Jason Kidd? You've got to be Kidd-ing. :rolleyes:
Hell yea jason didd will never get a ring unless he pull off a sam cassell and play for tha celtics lol

[Da_Realist]

I think both Stockton and Thomas are great players, but if I had to choose between the two, I would ride with Isiah every time. Come what may. I've seen this dude come through too many times in big moments to choose another point guard other than Magic Johnson.

I'm posting the 3rd quarter of the 1990 NBA Finals. Everyone knows about the explosion Isiah had against the Lakers in the 1988 Finals, but people forget about this one. Isiah was awesome this game (and, in fact, the whole series). He was the best player on the court and deservedly won the Finals MVP.

I've seen him step up against the Celtics, Bulls and in all 3 NBA Finals. John Stockton may have been the prototypical point guard but Isiah Thomas was a warrior.

1990 NBA Finals Game 4 (3rd Quarter) 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjdyv7kDg4)

1990 NBA Finals Game 4 (3rd Quarter) 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYeUGTgfZbI)

1990 NBA Finals Game 4 (3rd Quarter) 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qlLriJ1nTI)

[Gotterdammerung]

Jason Kidd??? I never saw those other guys play...but Jason Kidd? You've got to be Kidd-ing. :rolleyes:

Not at all. Kidd may not be what he used to be, (age, injury) but I still rank him up there with the greats.

Now, Deron Williams and Chris Paul certainly may enter that discussion after 5 more years of brilliance. Steve Nash also, if you backed me into a corner on the best point guard of the past 20 years.

[loot]

Hell yea jason didd will never get a ring unless he pull off a sam cassell and play for tha celtics lol

at least cassel won rings with the rockets.

[Lebron23]

I'm posting the 3rd quarter of the 1990 NBA Finals. Everyone knows about the explosion Isiah had against the Lakers in the 1988 Finals, but people forget about this one. Isiah was awesome this game (and, in fact, the whole series). He was the best player on the court and deservedly won the Finals MVP.

I've seen him step up against the Celtics, Bulls and in all 3 NBA Finals. John Stockton may have been the prototypical point guard but Isiah Thomas was a warrior.

1990 NBA Finals Game 4 (3rd Quarter) 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjdyv7kDg4)

1990 NBA Finals Game 4 (3rd Quarter) 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYeUGTgfZbI)

1990 NBA Finals Game 4 (3rd Quarter) 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qlLriJ1nTI)

I agree with your posts, and thank for uploading the Video because people forget how good Isiah Thomas was during his prime, and he's also a 2 time champion with the Pistons.

I rank Zeke as one of the clutchest PG in the history of the NBA, and Thomas was simply an scoring machine in the 4th quarter.

[ShamRockStar]

Thomas played on a stacked team, they had a bunch of great scorers on the wings, and were deep all over, to use him winning titles, then you all have to agree Bill Russell is greatest of all time and owns all.


Dumars - awesome defender, scored about 17 a game
Vinnie Johnson - Microwave, put in 14 ppg off the bench
Mark Aguirre - 15.5 ppg but when he was his teams top option b4 pistons scored as much as 29.5 ppg and avg around 25 a season.

not bad options foe his wings

Frontcourt

Laimbeer
Rodman
Mahorn
Salley
Edwards


That team was stacked

Thomas
Dumars
Aguirre
Rodman
Laimbeer

was like the recent pistons champs on steroids, balanced scoring with 18, 18, 15, 10, 13 pg and getting 14 from johnson off the bench and rodman and laimbeer both averaging about 10 boards. They were athletic and had some of the best defenders in the league.


I got 2 words to say for Stockton, Bryan Russell, nuff said.

Also, Who was PG for the 92 Dream Team and coming off a season where he averaged 13+ apg, Stockton, Zeke was left at home, Magic better anyways.

[Lebron23]

Hell yea jason didd will never get a ring unless he pull off a sam cassell and play for tha celtics lol


You need to have the Killer instinct mentality if you want to win an NBA Championship ring as the no.1 option of your team, and if you don't have the balls you aren't capable of beating talented teams like the Bulls, Lakers and the Celtics in the playoffs.

[ShamRockStar]

From age 25-33 Stockton led the league every year APG, and he didn't drop below 12 per game until that last year. He also put up 15-17ppg, 3 spg, and shot 50% from the field. The guy was a machine, consistent as hell and the best pg in the league for his entire prime.

[Sir Charles]

People keep underrating Mark Eaton :rolleyes:

The Best Shot Blocker in NBA`s Modern Time

One of the NBAs Best Defenders of All Time and a Man Capable of Pulling Down 10-11 RPG in his Prime too.

Blocks Per Game Career Average -

1. Mark Eaton - 3.5
2. Manute Bol - 3.34
3. Hakeem Olajuwon - 3.09
4. David Robinson - 2.99
5. Elmore Smith - 2.9
6. Alonzo Mourning - 2.85
7. Dikembe Mutomobo - 2.81
8. Theo Ratliff - 2.68
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 2.57
10. Marcus Camby - 2.56

[Heretik32]

People keep underrating Mark Eaton :rolleyes:

The Best Shot Blocker in NBA`s Modern Time

One of the NBAs Best Defenders of All Time and a Man Capable of Pulling Down 10-11 RPG in his Prime too.

Blocks Per Game Career Average -

1. Mark Eaton - 3.5
2. Manute Bol - 3.34
3. Hakeem Olajuwon - 3.09
4. David Robinson - 2.99
5. Elmore Smith - 2.9
6. Alonzo Mourning - 2.85
7. Dikembe Mutomobo - 2.81
8. Theo Ratliff - 2.68
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 2.57
10. Marcus Camby - 2.56

Don't you ****ing go near Mark Eaton, I dare you. Not while people still respect him!

[Sonic R]

Mark Aguirre - 15.5 ppg but when he was his teams top option b4 pistons scored as much as 29.5 ppg and avg around 25 a season.

Also, Who was PG for the 92 Dream Team and coming off a season where he averaged 13+ apg, Stockton, Zeke was left at home, Magic better anyways.

Even for as good as Aguirre was

[willds09]

at least cassel won rings with the rockets.
My bad I meant to say a gary payton

[willds09]

[QUOTE=Sonic R]Even for as good as Aguirre was

[willds09]

Don't you ****ing go near Mark Eaton, I dare you. Not while people still respect him!
U shouldn't be talking anymore in this argument

[Samurai Swoosh]

Isiah Thomas is the best PG of all-time, to me. Then 2nd place is a tie between Stockton and Magic. I'd take Isiah as a player over virtually any PG baller of any era, of any time period. He was that damn good.

[steve]

[QUOTE=Sonic R]Even for as good as Aguirre was

[Heretik32]

U shouldn't be talking anymore in this argument

You shouldn't be talking basketball anymore period.

Oh sorry, you never did. You're just agreeing/disagreeing with people based on nothing but your personal preferences and the way your balls lie.

[EricForman]

wait, i'm baffled this thread has this many pages.

Isiah was the #1 on a team that won two titles. Went against and beat Magic's Lakers and Larry's Celtics.

Stockton was almost certainly the #2 on a team that routinely lost in the 2nd round in the playoffs in the 90s.

How is this a question?

[eliteballer]

Zeke never beat "Magic's" Lakers.

[Da_Realist]

Zeke never beat "Magic's" Lakers.

Not fair. I could argue the Lakers benefited from Isiah's injury in Game 6 the year before. The Pistons almost beat LA in Game 6 with an injured Isiah and almost beat them with an even more limited Isiah in Game 7. Both games were in LA.

[joshwake]

wait, i'm baffled this thread has this many pages.

Isiah was the #1 on a team that won two titles. Went against and beat Magic's Lakers and Larry's Celtics.

Stockton was almost certainly the #2 on a team that routinely lost in the 2nd round in the playoffs in the 90s.

How is this a question?
because like most mindless basketball fans you still think its all about the numbers that end up on paper at the end of the game. Particularly offensive numbers.

If you actually watched them both play you can easily make an argument either way.

[72-10]

Isiah Thomas is the best PG of all-time, to me. Then 2nd place is a tie between Stockton and Magic. I'd take Isiah as a player over virtually any PG baller of any era, of any time period. He was that damn good.

Then you are a fool, and it sounds like you didn't really see Isiah's career or at least are capable of comparing it with other great(er) points like Magic and Stock. Isiah could lead his team but he could also self-destruct it, similar to a Kobe effect. In case you didn't notice, he was not exactly a great shooter and would sometimes veer out of control in this regard. At the least, how can you say he's better than Magic? Also, have you heard of Oscar Robertson?

[ShamRockStar]

[QUOTE=Sonic R]Even for as good as Aguirre was

[willds09]

You shouldn't be talking basketball anymore period.

Oh sorry, you never did. You're just agreeing/disagreeing with people based on nothing but your personal preferences and the way your balls lie.
Oh relly? I wasn't the one being a straight up puh-cee, after I made too many points that zeke is better, and u relly had no point to back it up, tha majority of the people here say zeke is better, and they are right, I know stockton is ur boy, but u have to face the truth, end of fcking story.

[willds09]

Zeke never beat "Magic's" Lakers.
U should get slap like btch, for saying some dumb shhiitt like that, does the '89 finals ring a bell???

[steve]

I thought it was because of his comment on Bird, saying if he was black he would just be just another guy, nothing special.
The actual quote is this (made after Rodman said Bird would be just another guy and the reporter had asked Isiah if he agreed with Rodman).

"I think Larry is a very very good basketball player, an exceptional talent, but I'd have to agree with Rodman, if he was black, he'd be just another good guy."

The main reason I think he was left off the Dream Team was because Jordan never forgave him for supposedly freezing him out of the '85 All Star game.

[Heretik32]

Oh relly? I wasn't the one being a straight up puh-cee, after I made too many points that zeke is better, and u relly had no point to back it up, tha majority of the people here say zeke is better, and they are right, I know stockton is ur boy, but u have to face the truth, end of fcking story.

You never made a single "point". You raved and went around in circles like a hysteric child that wanted to prove the yellow power ranger is better than the red power ranger. But I guess to each his own, eh.

[willds09]

You never made a single "point". You raved and went around in circles like a hysteric child that wanted to prove the yellow power ranger is better than the red power ranger. But I guess to each his own, eh.
Go back and study son, go back and read my student, and tha bull u saying now is exactly what a lil dumb @ss btch will say, cuz not just me, but a lot of people prove ur dumb @ss wrong, now go reminisce on that shhiit

[KINGK]

Isiah Thomas is the best PG of all-time, to me. Then 2nd place is a tie between Stockton and Magic. I'd take Isiah as a player over virtually any PG baller of any era, of any time period. He was that damn good.
Isiah over Magic?:oldlol:

[willds09]

Isiah over Magic?:oldlol:yea I like isiah but yea magic is better, but magic tied with stockton? That's just absurd lmao

[Heretik32]

Go back and study son, go back and read my student, and tha bull u saying now is exactly what a lil dumb @ss btch will say, cuz not just me, but a lot of people prove ur dumb @ss wrong, now go reminisce on that shhiit

Funny it's always the guys who couldn't spell their way out of a second grade spelling bee that think they "own the shit out of me" in arguments:oldlol:

[willds09]

Funny it's always the guys who couldn't spell their way out of a second grade spelling bee that think they "own the shit out of me" in arguments:oldlol:
First of all I was always good in spelling kid, I'm just a lazy speller on tha computer, but anyway I knew that's all u had to say, because u basically can't make a point to save ur @ss

[Heretik32]

First of all I was always good in spelling kid, I'm just a lazy speller on tha computer, but anyway I knew that's all u had to say, because u basically can't make a point to save ur @ss

Try again.

[Scott Pippen]

i say Isiah. But Stockton can be argued

[willds09]

Try again.
I knew u was going to give up like a sore loser

[Heretik32]

I knew u was going to give up like a sore loser

Try again.

[darkofan]

i say Isiah. But Stockton can be argued

Isiah was better, no doubt.

I'm not if Stockton would be able to make the same production in a different setting (without Karl Malone).

That said, he was incredible.

But Isiah had better handles, was quicker and was a better shooter, that much is obvious.

Stockton was a better defender and manleader, but the latter too can be argued...

[JazzDoc]

Stockton, definitely. Homerism aside. Based on their career per game stats (which is actually heavily in favor of Isiah since Stockton didn't play much his first 3 seasons and was slower his last couple seasons), Stock gives you more assists, more steals, MUCH better FG, 3P, and FT percentages (.515, .384, and .826 respectively), and fewer turnovers in 5 less minutes per game than Isiah. Granted Isiah scored more points, but you'd have to be crazy to think that Stockton couldn't have scored more if he wasn't a pass-first point guard and didn't defer to Malone. One of my biggest complaints was that he didn't shoot more. If he had won a championship, there wouldn't even be this conversation.

[w00terz]

Zeke

[EricForman]

because like most mindless basketball fans you still think its all about the numbers that end up on paper at the end of the game. Particularly offensive numbers.

If you actually watched them both play you can easily make an argument either way.


You talk like I merely went by numbers as in one stat.

When the numbers I listed were more like a number of factors:

titles won, number of years spent as the #1 guy on their own team, quality of teams beaten during their runs, toughness of era each player went against...

yeah , those are just numbers. it's silly of me to think Zeke when he has Stockton beat in every one of those categories I mentioned. :rolleyes:

What the hell is up with ISH lately. First some actually thinks Jerry West was greater than Bird and now Stockton over Isiah? What's next? Ray Allen over Kobe? Ewing over Olajuwon? Casino over Goodfellas?

[joshwake]

You talk like I merely went by numbers as in one stat.

When the numbers I listed were more like a number of factors:

titles won, number of years spent as the #1 guy on their own team, quality of teams beaten during their runs, toughness of era each player went against...

all of those, exept for one, are based on opinion and/or interpretation.

whats up with people acting all dumbfounded if someone suggests Stockton as a better player?

If I was making a team zeke would probalby be about my 7th pick for PG.

[Heretik32]

If I was making a team zeke would probalby be about my 7th pick for PG.

He'd actually be my first or second pick if I wanted to put together a team that relies on their PG as their first option of offense. But that's not the kind of team I'd put together, plain and simple.

[72-10]

Goodfellas is overrated.

[EricForman]

Hi guys,

It's Earvin.

Just a reminder.

Isiah used to torch the hell out of me when we played. I couldn't stop him at all. My buddy Larry couldn't stop him either. He's one of the greatest scoring point guards of all time and he was a team player to boot.

So it makes me mad when you guys be rating John Stockton over him. It just ain't right!

Sincerely,

Magic Johnson.

[CakeorDeath]

But Isiah had better handles, was quicker and was a better shooter, that much is obvious

Thomas career shooting averages: .452 FG%, .290 3 pt%, .759 FT%

Stockton career shooting averages: .515 FG%, .384 3pt%, .826 FT%

Thomas's best FG% over one season: .488%

Number of years Stockton shot at or above .488%: 15 (yes, fifteen)

Number of years Thomas shot at or above 50%: 0

Number of years Stockton shot at or above 50%: 12

There are plenty of places to argue that Thomas was better than Stockton. Shooting is not one of them. That much is obvious.

[steve]

Thomas career shooting averages: .452 FG%, .290 3 pt%, .759 FT%

Stockton career shooting averages: .515 FG%, .384 3pt%, .826 FT%

Thomas's best FG% over one season: .488%

Number of years Stockton shot at or above .488%: 15 (yes, fifteen)

Number of years Thomas shot at or above 50%: 0

Number of years Stockton shot at or above 50%: 12

There are plenty of places to argue that Thomas was better than Stockton. Shooting is not one of them. That much is obvious.
Well, their shooting stats really show that Stockton never had to be the main focus of his team offensively (and at the same time get everyone involved). It's a lot easier to have better shooting statistics when you get to pick and choose your spots. In fact there were only two seasons when he was second on the team in field goals made (and one of those seasons was when they traded Jeff Malone for Jeff Hornacek, and both of them averaged more makes per game than Stockton). The point is that Thomas' sample size is significantly greater than Stockton's as far as shooting goes.

[JazzDoc]

Well, their shooting stats really show that Stockton never had to be the main focus of his team offensively (and at the same time get everyone involved). It's a lot easier to have better shooting statistics when you get to pick and choose your spots. In fact there were only two seasons when he was second on the team in field goals made (and one of those seasons was when they traded Jeff Malone for Jeff Hornacek, and both of them averaged more makes per game than Stockton). The point is that Thomas' sample size is significantly greater than Stockton's as far as shooting goes.

Have you ever taken a statistics class? That may be the worst argument I have ever heard. Stockton made 7039/13658 FGs, 845/2203 3-Ps, 4788/5796 FTs, whereas Isiah made 7194/15904 FGs, 398/1373 3-Ps, and 4036/5316 FTs. So Stockton shot nearly twice as many 3-point shots and still shot a much better %, and shot nearly 1000 more free throws with a much better %. Isiah shot 2000 more FGs, but are you telling me that if Stockton had shot 2000 more that his percentage would go down that much? Not possible unless he had played into his 50s.

This argument comes down to that Isiah was more popular because Stockton shied away from the spotlight and still does. You can't say that Isiah Thomas is a better PG when Stockton averaged more assists, more steals, better FG, 3P, and FT %, and less turnovers average per game over their careers in five less minutes per game (playing significantly less minutes over the first 3 years of his career). Stockton was a better shooter, better ball handler, much better defender (Isiah never got an all-NBA defensive team), and found the open man easier. The only thing Isiah has on him is more points, but that's because he took more shots and shot his inferior percentages.

[steve]

Have you ever taken a statistics class? That may be the worst argument I have ever heard. Stockton made 7039/13658 FGs, 845/2203 3-Ps, 4788/5796 FTs, whereas Isiah made 7194/15904 FGs, 398/1373 3-Ps, and 4036/5316 FTs. So Stockton shot nearly twice as many 3-point shots and still shot a much better %, and shot nearly 1000 more free throws with a much better %. Isiah shot 2000 more FGs, but are you telling me that if Stockton had shot 2000 more that his percentage would go down that much? Not possible unless he had played into his 50s.
It has nothing to do with statistics here (which is why there aren't any numbers involved), it's a matter of choice. I'm not saying one of the other is the better shooter (in a gym all by themselves who knows whose actually the best shooter). What I was pointing out was that the Jazz never had to rely on Stockton scoring, so he could choose what shots based on how many open looks he gets. Thomas was never afforded that opportunity as he had to create scoring for himself and couldn't hang back and pick and choose his moments when he could take the open shot, a lot of the times he had to force the issue which results in some bad shots (which almost assuredly would lower his field goal percentage). By just saying that Stockton has a better field goal percentage therefore he's a better shooter might have some validity to it, it's not a complete argument.


This argument comes down to that Isiah was more popular because Stockton shied away from the spotlight and still does. You can't say that Isiah Thomas is a better PG when Stockton averaged more assists, more steals, better FG, 3P, and FT %, and less turnovers average per game over their careers in five less minutes per game (playing significantly less minutes over the first 3 years of his career). Stockton was a better shooter, better ball handler, much better defender (Isiah never got an all-NBA defensive team), and found the open man easier. The only thing Isiah has on him is more points, but that's because he took more shots and shot his inferior percentages.
Thomas was more popular? That's a pretty inaccurate statement in and of itself. When Thomas was playing, especially in his latter years after the Bird comment was hung on him. If he was more popular a player, how is it that he didn't make All NBA first or second team from 1988 to 1990 despite the fact that the Pistons made it to the finals each of those seasons (winning twice). If he was more popular, how is it that also during those seasons he never made it higher than 12th in the MVP voting even though he was clearly the best player on his team (he was within the top 10 the four previous seasons). Both of those are voted on by media members who covered the NBA and spurned Thomas after they hung the Birds comments on him. Also go back to the winter of 1991 when Thomas was left off the Dream Team without much of a fuss from anyone. So don't attempt to be condescending by suggesting that people are choosing Thomas because he's more "popular" when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

[JazzDoc]

It has nothing to do with statistics here (which is why there aren't any numbers involved), it's a matter of choice. I'm not saying one of the other is the better shooter (in a gym all by themselves who knows whose actually the best shooter). What I was pointing out was that the Jazz never had to rely on Stockton scoring, so he could choose what shots based on how many open looks he gets. Thomas was never afforded that opportunity as he had to create scoring for himself and couldn't hang back and pick and choose his moments when he could take the open shot, a lot of the times he had to force the issue which results in some bad shots (which almost assuredly would lower his field goal percentage). By just saying that Stockton has a better field goal percentage therefore he's a better shooter might have some validity to it, it's not a complete argument.


Thomas was more popular? That's a pretty inaccurate statement in and of itself. When Thomas was playing, especially in his latter years after the Bird comment was hung on him. If he was more popular a player, how is it that he didn't make All NBA first or second team from 1988 to 1990 despite the fact that the Pistons made it to the finals each of those seasons (winning twice). If he was more popular, how is it that also during those seasons he never made it higher than 12th in the MVP voting even though he was clearly the best player on his team (he was within the top 10 the four previous seasons). Both of those are voted on by media members who covered the NBA and spurned Thomas after they hung the Birds comments on him. Also go back to the winter of 1991 when Thomas was left off the Dream Team without much of a fuss from anyone. So don't attempt to be condescending by suggesting that people are choosing Thomas because he's more "popular" when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

You completely ignored the 3pt and FT percentages, though there may be some credibility to Isiah taking tougher shots. Stockton was obviously the better shooter. I'm not sure how my argument could be any MORE complete than with the numbers, especially the FTs. How better can you decide who's a better shooter than an unguarded shot from the line? If there is any evidence out there that Isiah was a better shooter, feel free to bring it forward. As for your second paragraph, I didn't mean that Isiah was more popular with the NBA players, coaches, media, etc. It's obvious from your post, that he wasn't the most popular player with Bird, Jordan, and other NBA persons. But that he's more popular among ISH posters. Hell, the population of metro Detroit is 2-3X the population of the entire state of Utah, and Michigan has Utah beat in population 5-6X. That lends to increased popularity. I'm not an Isiah hater, but it seems absurd to me that people say he is better than Stockton, when it's clear Stockton was better in nearly every statistical category (except points), was a much better defender, and much more durable. That's why I say it comes down to popularity.

[steve]

How many Detroit posters are this site? Just because there are more people in the Detroit metro area than there are in Salt Lake City doesn't mean anything on this board. In fact going by feeling and the number post/threads on their individual team forums here, the Jazz have a much larger presence on ISH than the Pistons do. You also managed to leave off something important when comparing the two, Thomas has two titles where he was the best player on the team (clearly) and was their undisputed leader. There is an argument that Stockton was never really given the chance to take the reigns because Malone was there, but we do know that Thomas did and he won championships in control of the team. So while you, a Jazz fan, is absolutely appalled at the fact of people considering Thomas better, it's a very real argument and to most neutral observers, Thomas gets the nod. It has nothing to do with popularity, it has more to do with winning and importance.

[Da_Realist]

Have you ever taken a statistics class? That may be the worst argument I have ever heard. Stockton made 7039/13658 FGs, 845/2203 3-Ps, 4788/5796 FTs, whereas Isiah made 7194/15904 FGs, 398/1373 3-Ps, and 4036/5316 FTs. So Stockton shot nearly twice as many 3-point shots and still shot a much better %, and shot nearly 1000 more free throws with a much better %. Isiah shot 2000 more FGs, but are you telling me that if Stockton had shot 2000 more that his percentage would go down that much? Not possible unless he had played into his 50s.

That's not fair. Stockton averaged more assists, but he also had Karl Malone. Don't you think Isiah would have averaged more assists if he had a teammate as efficient as Karl Malone, who averaged 25 ppg at a 52% clip? As it stands, Stockton averaged 10.5 apg while Isiah is not far behind at 9.3 apg.

Both Detroit and Utah used the pick-and-roll, but Detroit's was a guard-oriented offense. And the 3 guards were all undersized (Isiah at 6'1", Joe Dumars at 6'3" and Vinnie Johnson at 6'2). Facing defensive pressure from Michael Jordan (6'6"), Reggie Lewis (6'7"), Jeff Malone (6'4") and Hersey Hawkins (6'3") in a more physical conference without a bruising power forward like Karl Malone setting picks can alter your fg% a little bit. Imagine if Isiah had the services of Karl Malone setting picks EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT. Certainly his fg% would go up because he would get more wide-open shots. Imagine if he didn't have to shoulder the offensive burden of the team to be successful. Of course his fg% would go up as his scoring would go down.

Stockton averaged more steals but it's easier to gamble on defense when you have a 7'3" Five-Time All-Defensive Player (3 of those were First Team) and Two-Time DPOY playing behind you (Mark Eaton). As it stands, Stockton averaged 2.1 spg and Isiah averaged 1.9 spg. Not a big difference there.

Most of the arguments for Stockton centers around stats. Isiah supporters tend to offer up performances. Off the top of my head I can list a few things I've seen Isiah do that left me in amazement.

- 16 points in 94 seconds against the Knicks in 84
- game-winner against Hawks in 87
- destroying the Celtics in 88 after the heartwrenching loss to them in 87
- almost single-handedly taking the title from the Lakers on a severely sprained ankle in 88
- MVP performance in the 90 NBA Finals

Many more things that I can remember that stats won't measure. That's why I would choose Isiah Thomas.

[joshwake]

Hi guys,

It's Earvin.

Just a reminder.

Isiah used to torch the hell out of me when we played. I couldn't stop him at all. My buddy Larry couldn't stop him either. He's one of the greatest scoring point guards of all time and he was a team player to boot.

So it makes me mad when you guys be rating John Stockton over him. It just ain't right!

Sincerely,

Magic Johnson.
again... please re-read post #217

[joshwake]

Well, their shooting stats really show that Stockton never had to be the main focus of his team offensively (and at the same time get everyone involved). It's a lot easier to have better shooting statistics when you get to pick and choose your spots. In fact there were only two seasons when he was second on the team in field goals made (and one of those seasons was when they traded Jeff Malone for Jeff Hornacek, and both of them averaged more makes per game than Stockton). The point is that Thomas' sample size is significantly greater than Stockton's as far as shooting goes.

since when does taking alot of shots at an average FG% constitute a great PG?

Isn't the job of the PG to get the most efficent scoring for the TEAM. I'm not saying Zeke did not do that... but I will say that Stockton was better at it, thus, imo he was a better PG.

[joshwake]

That's not fair. Stockton averaged more assists, but he also had Karl Malone. Don't you think Isiah would have averaged more assists if he had a teammate as efficient as Karl Malone, who averaged 25 ppg at a 52% clip? As it stands, Stockton averaged 10.5 apg while Isiah is not far behind at 9.3 apg.

Both Detroit and Utah used the pick-and-roll, but Detroit's was a guard-oriented offense. And the 3 guards were all undersized (Isiah at 6'1", Joe Dumars at 6'3" and Vinnie Johnson at 6'2). Facing defensive pressure from Michael Jordan (6'6"), Reggie Lewis (6'7"), Jeff Malone (6'4") and Hersey Hawkins (6'3") in a more physical league without a bruising power forward like Karl Malone setting picks can alter your fg% a little bit. Imagine if Isiah had the services of Karl Malone setting picks EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT. Certainly his fg% would go up because he would get more wide-open shots. Imagine if he didn't have to shoulder the offensive burden of the team to be successful. Of course his fg% would go up as his scoring would go down.

Stockton averaged more steals but it's easier to gamble on defense when you have a 7'3" Five-Time All-Defensive Player (3 of those were First Team) and Two-Time DPOY playing behind you (Mark Eaton). As it stands, Stockton averaged 2.1 spg and Isiah averaged 1.9 spg. Not a big difference there.

Most of the arguments for Stockton centers around stats. Isiah supporters tend to offer up performances. Off the top of my head I can list a few things I've seen Isiah do that left me in amazement.

- 16 points in 94 seconds against the Knicks in 84
- game-winner against Hawks in 87
- destroying the Celtics in 88 after the heartwrenching loss to them in 87
- almost single-handedly taking the title from the Lakers on a severely sprained ankle in 88
- MVP performance in the 90 NBA Finals

Many more things that I can remember that stats won't measure. That's why I would choose Isiah Thomas.

I was going to respond to this post and point out the many flaws,,, but I need to go to bed sometime in the next 3 days... so..... someone else can.

[symbol33]

Has to be Isiah Thomas, the guy was such a unique badass. That is no knock on John Stockton, he is a top 50 player all time, but Isiah Thomas is probably the most underrated player from the golden era of the NBA (1980-1993). You hear about Magic, Bird, & Jordan but you never hear about Isiah and he was right there with those guys.

I think, and people will laugh at me, but I think Isiah Thomas is arguably a top 10 player all time. I think he is right there with Oscar Robertson in the history books.

it's no doubt that Isiah is better than Stockton, but, compare to Oscar, :lol