Kobe Bryant is good, but can’t touch Michael Jordan

[Scott Pippen]

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?&articleid=1097960&format=&page=2&listingType=celt#articleFull

Kobe Bryant is a wonderful player. I am extraordinarily excited about watching him lead the Lakers against the Celtics in the NBA Finals that begin Thursday. I fully expect a classic performance, and I firmly believe he will lead the Lakers to a championship in six games with the final game on the Celtics’ home court.

But he’s not Michael Jordan, and he knows it.

"You’re talking about the greatest that ever played the game," Bryant said in an exasperated tone in an interview with ESPN’s Stephen A. Smith. "Michael is Michael!"

On his national radio show, Dan Patrick approached the same subject with Larry Bird.

"I think Kobe is the best player in our league, and I think he’s been the best player for a long time ..." Bird said. "But to say he’s another Michael Jordan - I can’t do that."

[KOBE24isdabest]

yeh i agree, kobe is definitely the best player in the league right now

but all time has to go to michael first

[Da_Realist]

Very good article. Those are my thoughts exactly. There was a fierceness with MJ that I hadn't seen (to the same degree) with anyone else. Players, coaches, teams feared him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKOkNZ4Yzto).

You just had to watch to 'get it'. Trying to define MJ by the number of championships, his scoring average or his other accomplishments is like trying to define Mozart by musical scales. Some things you can't define. Greatness is one of them.

[Psileas]

Why is Michael Jordan the greatest player ever? Because anyone with the blessing of eyesight who watched him knows that he was. It is, very simply, common sense. That’s why when describing the greatness of people who excel, it’s popular to say, "He (or she) is the Michael Jordan of (whatever)."

Not the Kobe Bryant of, the Wilt Chamberlain of, the Bill Russell of, the Magic Johnson of, the Larry Bird of or the Julius Erving of. It’s the Michael Jordan of.


With all respect, that's more like a popularity contest than anything else. I've heard more people saying that "he's the Kobe Bryant of..." than "he's the Bill Russell of...". This doesn't make Kobe any greater than Russell was.
About the rest and how Kobe < Jordan, I agree, but it's nothing we hear for the 1st (or even 100th) time.

[gpfanz]

Kobe is only human.. MJ is god? in disguise :roll:

[Showtime]

"Let me be me"

Fans, please listen to your guy.

[Zak]

Of course, maybe if MJ was 38 years younger, white, and didn't have a shlong.

[Da_Realist]

With all respect, that's more like a popularity contest than anything else.

I agree. At the base level, "The Best Ever..." is an opinion. The reason it seems like fact is because so many people share that opinion, making it a popularity contest.

Stats can't be used as the only measure of greatness due to the inability to measure all factors (rule changes, different eras, different style of basketball, etc). So...



About the rest and how Kobe < Jordan, I agree

How would you explain ^^ without using some sort of opinion-based observation?

[highwhey]

no attack of the kobe fans? i completely agree with this thread but kobe fans are to ignorant to see you can't make the comparison.

[allball]

in a head to head matchup Kobe could give Jordan some difficulty. I don't remember Jordan defending a perimeter player of Kobe's caliber in his career. and John Starks got at him a couple of times. Of course Kobe's never guarded a prime Jordan either. It would be a little tougher for Jordan to post up Kobe versus say Majerle, Payton or Byron/Bryon? Russell or Reggie Miller.

Kobe can't touch Jordan in terms of status and achievement but as a player he would give him a good run.

[Da_Realist]

in a head to head matchup Kobe could give Jordan some difficulty. I don't remember Jordan defending a perimeter player of Kobe's caliber in his career. and John Starks got at him a couple of times. Of course Kobe's never guarded a prime Jordan either. It would be a little tougher for Jordan to post up Kobe versus say Majerle, Payton or Byron/Bryon? Russell or Reggie Miller.

Kobe can't touch Jordan in terms of status and achievement but as a player he would give him a good run.

Jordan in his prime wouldn't need to post up. The post up fadeaway game didn't become a primary weapon until 1996. He only used it sporadically before that because he was so quick.

I also don't know if I would agree with that. Kobe is strong, but I've read his own coaches (Tex Winter, I think) say he doesn't hold his position in the post as well as he should. In other words, he gets pushed around down low. And I don't think he is that much (if at all) stronger down low than Majerle, Payton and others. More talented, yes. But stronger? I don't know about that. Especially Payton in his prime.

[DuMa]

in a head to head matchup Kobe could give Jordan some difficulty. I don't remember Jordan defending a perimeter player of Kobe's caliber in his career. and John Starks got at him a couple of times. Of course Kobe's never guarded a prime Jordan either. It would be a little tougher for Jordan to post up Kobe versus say Majerle, Payton or Byron/Bryon? Russell or Reggie Miller.

Kobe can't touch Jordan in terms of status and achievement but as a player he would give him a good run.

head to head i wouldnt put much of an argument in anything. Lebron has dominated Kobe. Paul Peirce has dominanted Kobe. but we dont mention any of that.

[Psileas]

How would you explain ^^ without using some sort of opinion-based observation?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I've seen both Jordan and Kobe play and even if I hadn't, there's plenty of footage and stats available for both. I agreed that Jordan>Kobe based on what I saw and studied, not on opinions.

[Da_Realist]

I'm not sure what you mean here. I've seen both Jordan and Kobe play and even if I hadn't, there's plenty of footage and stats available for both. I agreed that Jordan>Kobe based on what I saw and studied, not on opinions.

This is what I was referring to. This is basically what I would say if someone asked me too. But it is still an opinion based on what you saw and studied. Multiply this statement by 100 million people and it's easy to see how MJ becomes the standard to which other players are judged.

I was just trying to point out that you were right (it is a popularity contest), but that's because the original statement is an opinion. And since it's not fact, someone can feel comfortable using statements like...


Why is Michael Jordan the greatest player ever? Because anyone with the blessing of eyesight who watched him knows that he was. It is, very simply, common sense. That’s why when describing the greatness of people who excel, it’s popular to say, "He (or she) is the Michael Jordan of (whatever)."
Not the Kobe Bryant of, the Wilt Chamberlain of, the Bill Russell of, the Magic Johnson of, the Larry Bird of or the Julius Erving of. It’s the Michael Jordan of.

to justify their opinion.

[Poseidon]

Touch Michael Jordan? Kobe is on the verge of SLAPPING Michael Jordan in the next 4-5 years. Dude is just getting started. This article is going to look mighty foolish in a few years.

[mlh1981]

There is a chance that Kobe Bryant might become as skilled as Michael Jordan (and maybe he already is). However, no player will be able to match the impact that MJ had in just about every other avenue.

[Kansas]

Why won't people just realize this. Athletically Jordan was on another level than Kobe. Kobe is a great athlete, but Jordan was the most explosive human being I've ever seen.

It'd be like giving a player Kobe's fluidity/agility, VC's hops, and Wade's speed.

[guy]

There is a chance that Kobe Bryant might become as skilled as Michael Jordan (and maybe he already is).

I don't think he already is and there is a very small chance he will. Players rarely get more skilled after 30, especially with so many years played like Kobe.

[Da_Realist]

Touch Michael Jordan? Kobe is on the verge of SLAPPING Michael Jordan in the next 4-5 years. Dude is just getting started. This article is going to look mighty foolish in a few years.

Dude has been playing since 1997. He's not going to change that much as a basketball player over the next few years. He may grab some more recognition/awards, etc but that's not the reason MJ is considered the best.

[DuMa]

Touch Michael Jordan? Kobe is on the verge of SLAPPING Michael Jordan in the next 4-5 years. Dude is just getting started. This article is going to look mighty foolish in a few years.

the same mighty foolish look that you're sporting now? :oldlol:

Kobe Bryant said it himself. Kobe cant touch Michael. So why are his homers tryin to make something out of nothing? typical 12 year olds.

[Da_Realist]

At this point, if Kobe was better we would already know it. If someone felt that Kareem was better than Wilt, it didn't take them until his 20th season to figure that out.

Unless you judge solely on accomplishments/awards/recognition. In that case, as long as he's still playing he could theoretically surpass MJ, but even that is doubtful.

And that is still not a true measure of a player. Awards/accomplishments should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. In other words, it should be used to support the argument, not be the argument.

If Kobe wins his 4th ring this year, does that automatically make him better than Larry Bird?

[GreatLakes]

If Kobe wins his 4th ring this year, does that automatically make him better than Larry Bird?

Tell that to the guy who thinks Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird.:roll:

[Da_Realist]

Tell that to the guy who thinks Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird.:roll:

I don't know who that is because Larry Bird played on another level than Scottie Pippen.

[GreatLakes]

I don't know who that is because Larry Bird played on another level than Scottie Pippen.

97 Bulls

[Poseidon]

Kobe Bryant said it himself. Kobe cant touch Michael. So why are his homers tryin to make something out of nothing? typical 12 year olds.

Kobe is just showing respect to a legend, being politically correct and not trying to come off as an arrogant jerk. Privately, I'm sure he considers himself right up there with MJ and has all the tools/skill-set to be considered equal or better than him one day.

You don't become as assassin and get the type of "Killer instinct" that Kobe has by thinking that ANYONE is better than you. Ever heard Kobe mention another current player being better than him or even close to him (like how LeBron has repeatedly mentioned that Kobe is the best player in the game)? NO....and you NEVER will hear Kobe utter those cowardly words.

If Kobe wins a couple of more MVP's, a couple of more titles, add a gold medal or two to his resume and maintains similar stats/numbers over the next 4-5 years....he'll be right up there with MJ. Only a fool (or a Jordan slurper) would think or believe otherwise.

[Poseidon]

At this point, if Kobe was better we would already know it.

Was Michael Jordan regarded the "best ever" at age 29?

Why not judge Kobe's career and his place in history when he retires and not during his prime years?

[guy]

Was Michael Jordan regarded the "best ever" at age 29?

Why not judge Kobe's career and his place in history when he retires and not during his prime years?

Not by everyone, but by alot of people he was, and everyone thought he was at least on his way.

[KenneBell]

There is a chance that Kobe Bryant might become as skilled as Michael Jordan (and maybe he already is). However, no player will be able to match the impact that MJ had in just about every other avenue.
Agreed. I think he's just as skilled as Michael, Kobe has a few more tricks in the bag too. Impact there's no arguement though.


And oh yea, GRIFFEY FOR 600!!!! :bowdown:

[w00terz]

With Gasol in the lineup, Kobe can score 25 points and win. Jordan never had a dominant center like Gasol on his team. Given the Lakers progression, I really think they will be a better team than the 72 win Bulls. Vujacic is like another Kerr, along with Vlad. Odom isn't as good as Pippen but Jordan never had truly dominant big men playing with him. Kobe may very well get another 3 rings but I still think Jordan is better.

Shut up Poseidon.

[guy]

If Kobe wins a couple of more MVP's, a couple of more titles, add a gold medal or two to his resume and maintains similar stats/numbers over the next 4-5 years....he'll be right up there with MJ. Only a fool (or a Jordan slurper) would think or believe otherwise.

How so? A couple is 2, so 3 MVPs total does not equal 5 MVPs, and 5 championships, not to mention only 2 as the best player, does not equal 6 championships. And his stats right now are not equal to Jordan's, and if he doesn't put up better numbers over the next 4 years, they won't ever get equal. Right now 29 year-old Kobe's stats = 33 year-old Jordan's stats. I don't get why people think Kobe doesn't have to accomplish as much as Jordan to be considered his equal or better.

[Poseidon]

With Gasol in the lineup, Kobe can score 25 points and win. Jordan never had a dominant center like Gasol on his team. Given the Lakers progression, I really think they will be a better team than the 72 win Bulls. Vujacic is like another Kerr, along with Vlad. Odom isn't as good as Pippen but Jordan never had truly dominant big men playing with him. Kobe may very well get another 3 rings but I still think Jordan is better.

Shut up Poseidon.

My point is that Kobe deserves to be MENTIONED in the same discussion as Michael Jordan if he retires with the following achievements (all very likely BTW):

30,000+ career points

2-3 MVP's

2 Olympic Gold Medals

5-6 NBA Championships

2-3 Finals MVP awards

2-3 All-Star MVPs

81 points

62 in 3 quarters

4 straight 50+ point games

Average 40+ ppg in a month 7 separate times

[KenneBell]

. Right now 29 year-old Kobe's stats = 33 year-old Jordan's stats. I don't get why people think Kobe doesn't have to accomplish as much as Jordan to be considered his equal or better.
True but you could look at what Kobe has done as the 1st option on his team. He's done a lot in 4 years. Also, Kobe took a step back this season as he obviously could have put up 30-32ppg this season.

I see what you saying though...:cheers:

[Da_Realist]

Was Michael Jordan regarded the "best ever" at age 29?

Why not judge Kobe's career and his place in history when he retires and not during his prime years?

He was! Like I've said before, we knew when MJ came into the league and there were talks of him being the best ever in 89. 1-9-8-9.

[Da_Realist]

My point is that Kobe deserves to be MENTIONED in the same discussion as Michael Jordan if he retires with the following achievements (all very likely BTW):

30,000+ career points

2-3 MVP's

2 Olympic Gold Medals

5-6 NBA Championships

2-3 Finals MVP awards

2-3 All-Star MVPs

81 points

62 in 3 quarters

4 straight 50+ point games

Average 40+ ppg in a month 7 separate times

Accomplishments don't make the player.

Sadly, Kobe played most of his career chasing accomplishments as if that would open the door for him to be better than MJ. He's just now realizing that's fool's gold. MJ didn't play to put up the biggest stats. His stats came cause he was just that good. If he was chasing stats, he wouldn't have retired twice! He would have played like Karl Malone and kept pushing those career stats beyond reach.

[kobeFANNER]

Not by everyone, but by alot of people he was, and everyone thought he was at least on his way.

Alot of Kobe groupies will argue Kobe for GOAT and that Kobe is on his way.

Your point is pointless

:confusedshrug:

[GreatLakes]

With Gasol in the lineup, Kobe can score 25 points and win. Jordan never had a dominant center like Gasol on his team. Given the Lakers progression, I really think they will be a better team than the 72 win Bulls. Vujacic is like another Kerr, along with Vlad. Odom isn't as good as Pippen but Jordan never had truly dominant big men playing with him. Kobe may very well get another 3 rings but I still think Jordan is better.

Shut up Poseidon.

Now Gasol is a dominant center? Come on! Gasol is good. He is really playing out of position and would be a very good PF. But he is far from dominant.

Pippen is alot better than Odom, not just a little. How do you forget Rodman or Horace Grant? One is a potential HOFer and the other is an all-star caliber PF.

I am not stating this to make Kobe look better, just trying to make things abit more balanced.

[guy]

Alot of Kobe groupies will argue Kobe for GOAT and that Kobe was on his way.

Your point is pointless

:confusedshrug:

Groupies are different. The media and analysts were saying Jordan was the GOAT or on his way. Right now, no one is saying that about Kobe. There saying he MIGHT be on his way to being up there with Magic, Bird, and/or Jordan, or at least thats what I've been hearing.

[Da_Realist]

Groupies are different. The media and analysts were saying Jordan was the GOAT or on his way. Right now, no one is saying that about Kobe. There saying he MIGHT be on his way to being up there with Magic, Bird, and/or Jordan, or at least thats what I've been hearing.

And that's only because they're hyping the NBA product. More people will watch if analysts keep saying Kobe is better than MJ. They'll watch to see if it's true.

Kobe groupies are the main reason Kobe isn't appreciated. They want him to be better than MJ so bad they keep comparing, only to have Kobe shot down everytime even though he is great player.

[GreatLakes]

He was! Like I've said before, we knew when MJ came into the league and there were talks of him being the best ever in 89. 1-9-8-9.

No one said anything of the sort when he came in the league. If they would have thought that , he would definitely have been the number 1 pick. I agree that it seemed that MJ was transcendent in the league. But he definitely was not the "chosen" one like you're making it seem to be. Nobody expected anywhere close to the career out of MJ that he had.

Speaking of the "Chosen" one, LBJ is doing just as much (if not more) than MJ coming into the league to make you think that he could become the GOAT.

[GreatLakes]

Groupies are different. The media and analysts were saying Jordan was the GOAT or on his way. Right now, no one is saying that about Kobe. There saying he MIGHT be on his way to being up there with Magic, Bird, and/or Jordan, or at least thats what I've been hearing.

Ask Mark Jackson or Greg Anthony who they think will be better in the long run. But I am sure you will just dismiss their opinions.

PS. I do think MJ > Kobe, but some of the reasoning that you guys have is questionable.

[guy]

And that's only because they're hyping the NBA product. More people will watch if analysts keep saying Kobe is better than MJ. They'll watch to see if it's true.


I would've said the same thing but I left that alone. The reason being someone can say the media was just doing the same thing for Jordan. Either way, Kobe right now is not regarded as highly as Jordan was at 29.

[TheProphet]

Touch Michael Jordan? Kobe is on the verge of SLAPPING Michael Jordan in the next 4-5 years. Dude is just getting started. This article is going to look mighty foolish in a few years.

Drink poison. It'll help.

[guy]

Ask Mark Jackson or Greg Anthony who they think will be better in the long run. But I am sure you will just dismiss their opinions.

PS. I do think MJ > Kobe, but some of the reasoning that you guys have is questionable.

Mark Jackson said that a long time ago, and you don't really hear that from him anymore. And yea Greg Anthony has said it, but thats one guy, and theres maybe a few others. Its not the majority opinion like it was for Jordan back then.

[TheProphet]

Ask Mark Jackson or Greg Anthony who they think will be better in the long run. But I am sure you will just dismiss their opinions.

PS. I do think MJ > Kobe, but some of the reasoning that you guys have is questionable.

They read scripts provided to them by the NBA and ABC (make your characters you have look good). Look at WWE announcers, they say the same chit about popular wrestlers. Do you really believe they actually state their opinion. If you do, go watch any cable news show. They basically say the same chit.

[flintstone]

If he really wants to "be like Mike"....he's going to need to play some pro baseball too :bowdown:

[Da_Realist]

No one said anything of the sort when he came in the league.

If they would have thought that , he would definitely have been the number 1 pick. I agree that it seemed that MJ was transcendent in the league. But he definitely was not the "chosen" one like you're making it seem to be. Nobody expected anywhere close to the career out of MJ that he had.

This is 1989 (http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=tjhunt76&search_query=1989&search=Search)

It's not scientific, but we recognized MJ right off the bat. Go back and read old articles of what the league was saying back then. You would be surprised.

[QUOTE=GreatLakes]Speaking of the "Chosen" one, LBJ is doing just as much (if not more) than MJ coming into the league to make you think that he could become the GOAT.

All you have to do is watch some video. LBJ is not MJ. Kobe is not MJ.

[GreatLakes]

They read scripts. Do you really believe they actually state their opinion. If you do, go watch fox news.

How does Mark Jackson have a script while he is telecasting a live NBA game? Anthony and Jackson have repeatedly said it, as well as many others. I am not taking there word as Gospel. Just saying that the sentiment is out there.

Of course Kobe could not have garnered as much attention as Jordan early in their careers. The paths of their careers were very different.

[TheProphet]

How does Mark Jackson have a script while he is telecasting a live NBA game? Anthony and Jackson have repeatedly said it, as well as many others. I am not taking there word as Gospel. Just saying that the sentiment is out there.

Of course Kobe could not have garnered as much attention as Jordan early in their careers. The paths of their careers were very different.

That's why they use words like "he trusts in his teammates." You seriously believe this chit. Of course, you can't do the whole game. But there are those liners that you must use. Those kiss ass. Watch Kevin Durant first game, every shot came with an "ahh, wow, this kid is going to be amazing."

I wonder if Greg Anthony and Mark Jackson are HOFers for saying comments like those. Poor Tim Hardaway, you ten times the better players than these guys and you can't get a job.

[Da_Realist]

Ask Mark Jackson or Greg Anthony who they think will be better in the long run. But I am sure you will just dismiss their opinions.


Either Kobe is better or not. He's not going to become better from this point unless you are only judging by stats. And even then, it's a long shot (though these new rules sure make things a lot easier). Kobe at 29 looks amazingly like 33+ year old MJ right now. Put that MJ in this soft league and he rips it too.

[GreatLakes]

[QUOTE=GreatLakes]No one said anything of the sort when he came in the league.

If they would have thought that , he would definitely have been the number 1 pick. I agree that it seemed that MJ was transcendent in the league. But he definitely was not the "chosen" one like you're making it seem to be. Nobody expected anywhere close to the career out of MJ that he had.

This is 1989 (http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=tjhunt76&search_query=1989&search=Search)

It's not scientific, but we recognized MJ right off the bat. Go back and read old articles of what the league was saying back then. You would be surprised.



All you have to do is watch some video. LBJ is not MJ. Kobe is not MJ.

Why are you giving me an article from 1989, when Jordan came into the league in 1984? I am sure I can find some great "GOAT" articles about LBJ right now. Show me an article from 1984-85 that says Jordan is or will be the best player in the history of the game.

Never said LBJ or Kobe is Mike. But to act like either guy can't be better than Mike is a bit arrogant and short-sighted. Dude I don't need to watch video, I watched it live.

[juju151111]

in a head to head matchup Kobe could give Jordan some difficulty. I don't remember Jordan defending a perimeter player of Kobe's caliber in his career. and John Starks got at him a couple of times. Of course Kobe's never guarded a prime Jordan either. It would be a little tougher for Jordan to post up Kobe versus say Majerle, Payton or Byron/Bryon? Russell or Reggie Miller.

Kobe can't touch Jordan in terms of status and achievement but as a player he would give him a good run.
:roll: Mj 2ould back his ass down.Why the hell people think Mj only back down those players??He backed doen everyone.The knicks didn't always use starks on him.They used wilkins.LOL russel is strong and wieghs just has much has Kobe.Also Mj doesn't need to back him down when he can get by him.

[TheProphet]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]

Why are you giving me an article from 1989, when Jordan came into the league in 1984. I am sure I can find some great "GOAT" articles about LBJ right now. Show me an article from 1984-85 that says Jordan is or will be the best player in the history of the game.

Never said LBJ or Kobe is Mike. But to act like either guy can't be better than Mike is a bit arrogant and short-sighted.

Jordan career playoff numbers up to age 29 are much better than Kobe. If you are going to argue that Kobe came into the league at age 18, then why is LeBron James, at age 23, have better numbers than Kobe in the playoffs.

[GreatLakes]

That's why they use words like "he trusts in his teammates." You seriously believe this chit. Of course, you can't do the whole game. But there are those liners that you must use. Those kiss ass. Watch Kevin Durant first game, every shot came with an "ahh, wow, this kid is going to be amazing."

I wonder if Greg Anthony and Mark Jackson are HOFers for saying comments like those. Poor Tim Hardaway, you ten times the better players than these guys and you can't get a job.

So you think people are feeding Mark Jackson to say Kobe will be better than MJ? Come on! :ohwell: There is a huge difference between Fox News and an NBA broadcast.

[juju151111]

How does Mark Jackson have a script while he is telecasting a live NBA game? Anthony and Jackson have repeatedly said it, as well as many others. I am not taking there word as Gospel. Just saying that the sentiment is out there.

Of course Kobe could not have garnered as much attention as Jordan early in their careers. The paths of their careers were very different.
LOL Jackson retracted his statement.Jackson is just watching Kobe now and thinks he is good.People like to go after wat is going on now.Do u know how much kids out there think shaq is the greatest center?Mj needs to dunk on jackson head again to refresh his memories.

[RapsFan]

This is not a jab at anyone for being younger....sometimes I wish I was a bit younger. :oldlol:

But, generally speaking, you have to be a laker homer or quite young to even debate that Kobe is better then Jordan. You cannot have watched Jordan for anything more then his last year or two. If you did, you would realize how foolish it is to make the comparison. Jordan also played in a completely different NBA. Teams were less watered down and the major difference is the changes made in the rule book to try and get scoring up and make it more entertaining. Hand checking cannot be overlooked. Back then, you could clobber a guy going to the rack. Now, any hard foul is a freakin' intentional. It's a joke. It's fun to watch but you just can't compare.

[TheProphet]

So you think people are feeding Mark Jackson to say Kobe will be better than MJ? Come on! :ohwell: There is a huge difference between Fox News and an NBA broadcast.

They'll the same. They have agendas. Promote LeBrons, Wades, Dwight, at all cost. Hell, by creating these stars, they may create more viewership. In cable news, what do they want, more viewership so they create their own stars from the famous cop who killed his wife to Illinois, to Barack Obama "We can change this word through words not action" speeches.

[TheProphet]

This is not a jab at anyone for being younger....sometimes I wish I was a bit younger. :oldlol:

But, generally speaking, you have to be a laker homer or quite young to even debate that Kobe is better then Jordan. You cannot have watched Jordan for anything more then his last year or two. If you did, you would realize how foolish it is to make the comparison. Jordan also played in a completely different NBA. Teams were less watered down and the major difference is the changes made in the rule book to try and get scoring up and make it more entertaining. Hand checking cannot be overlooked. Back then, you could clobber a guy going to the rack. Now, any hard foul is a freakin' intentional. It's a joke. It's fun to watch but you just can't compare.

Not always the case. I remember Paul Pierce tackling Billiups to the ground. Flagrant foul? Nope. Only in the NBA where officiating in all shapes and form are misleading.

[juju151111]

Accomplishments don't make the player.

Sadly, Kobe played most of his career chasing accomplishments as if that would open the door for him to be better than MJ. He's just now realizing that's fool's gold. MJ didn't play to put up the biggest stats. His stats came cause he was just that good. If he was chasing stats, he wouldn't have retired twice! He would have played like Karl Malone and kept pushing those career stats beyond reach.
the funny thing is Mj could of been the all-time stls leader and the all-timescoring leader if he never retired twice.

[juju151111]

Not always the case. I remember Paul Pierce tackling Billiups to the ground. Flagrant foul? Nope. Only in the NBA where officiating in all shapes and form are misleading.
wow that one time.he was trying to foul him.Thats the main reason the refs didn't give that call.

[Da_Realist]

Why are you giving me an article from 1989, when Jordan came into the league in 1984? I am sure I can find some great "GOAT" articles about LBJ right now. Show me an article from 1984-85 that says Jordan is or will be the best player in the history of the game.

Never said LBJ or Kobe is Mike. But to act like either guy can't be better than Mike is a bit arrogant and short-sighted. Dude I don't need to watch video, I watched it live.

I never said MJ was the best when he was a rookie. That makes no sense. In fact, I think I even spelled out "1989". My point is it doesn't take 15 years to "wait and see" if someone is going to be the best.

Kobe is already sliding out of his prime.

[RapsFan]

Not always the case. I remember Paul Pierce tackling Billiups to the ground. Flagrant foul? Nope. Only in the NBA where officiating in all shapes and form are misleading.

Pretty irrelevant to this discussion. The point is, the NBA has greatly changed.

[Da_Realist]

Pretty irrelevant to this discussion. The point is, the NBA has greatly changed.

Completely different. :cheers:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Either Kobe is better or not. He's not going to become better from this point unless you are only judging by stats. And even then, it's a long shot (though these new rules sure make things a lot eaiser). Kobe at 29 looks amazingly like 33+ year old MJ right now. Put that MJ in this soft league and he rips it too.

Many people judge a player on his achievements/awards/victories. Indeed, a player's place in history will often be determined by such. Kobe still has a few more years for those things to play out....and, thus, his place in NBA history.

[Da_Realist]

the funny thing is Mj could of been the all-time stls leader and the all-timescoring leader if he never retired twice.

His numbers would have been completely out of reach for Kobe if MJ had played in 94 and 95 (the later years of his prime).

[TheProphet]

His numbers would have been completely out of reach for Kobe if MJ had played in 94 and 95 (the later years of his prime).

Or played with the rules now.

[Da_Realist]

Or played with the rules now.

Yep.

The irony is...he would have put up even bigger numbers than he did, but he wouldn't have been a better player. We would have never seen him truly tested.

Today's league rewards the players with the best skills. Jordan's era (and before) rewarded skill but you had to be tough too. MJ getting knocked on his butt showed us what type of player he was.

It's is a skill contest nowadays. They play defense like it's an all-star game.

[RapsFan]

Or played with the rules now.

Agreed. If Jordan had played in the rules now, with as many expansion teams as there are now, and didn't retire during his prime (his prime was basically 10 years), Jordan's numbers would have been astronomical. Not a slite to Kobe, he's a great player and when it is all said and done will be considered along with some of the top guys, but I just think, having watched both for basically their entire careers, that Jordan is on a totally different level.

[juju151111]

His numbers would have been completely out of reach for Kobe if MJ had played in 94 and 95 (the later years of his prime).
yeah, but stupid people think he wouldn't.he was on pace to pass wilt and stackton in stls.All he had to do was play 94-03 without retirement.He would have those records and maybe we wouldn't have to laugh at these Kobe fans right know because they would know how great he was.Ohh well he is still 3 rd all-time in scoring and 2nd in stls.He has the most blks in the playoff for a guard.The funny thing is everytime i talk with my friend who is a kobe fan all he says is that Mj doesn't have 81.I tell him Mj has wayyyyyyy more stuff that Kobe doesn't have.just go to wikipedia and see the aount of things he did.It's Amazing.He played great on offense and defense.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Agreed. If Jordan had played in the rules now, with as many expansion teams as there are now, and didn't retire during his prime (his prime was basically 10 years), Jordan's numbers would have been astronomical. Not a slite to Kobe, he's a great player and when it is all said and done will be considered along with some of the top guys, but I just think, having watched both for basically their entire careers, that Jordan is on a totally different level.

some of you guys need to brush up on your NBA history.
MJ played DURING those league expansions. He played AGAINST those teams when they were just scrubs.
1987: Charlotte, Miami, Minnesota, Orlando
1993: Toronto
1994: Vancouver

He also played BEFORE there was a significant influx of talented Euro players.

[guy]

yeah, but stupid people think he wouldn't.he was on pace to pass wilt and stackton in stls.All he had to do was play 94-03 without retirement.

I'm a huge Jordan fan, but saying thats "all he had to do" is making it seem like that sounds easy. Jordan took about 5 years off during that period of time, so if he actually never retired through his career, I doubt he would've played till 03 in his 40s without taking a break. I'm pretty sure he would have more titles and MVPs, but I'm not totally sold on him breaking Kareem's record, but he definitely would've had a good chance. I mean he's about 6000 points off, so it probably would've taken at least 3 seasons to do it, so he would've had a good chance

[juju151111]

I'm a huge Jordan fan, but saying thats "all he had to do" is making it seem like that sounds easy. Jordan took about 5 years off during that period of time, so if he actually never retired through his career, I doubt he would've played till 03 in his 40s without taking a break. I'm pretty sure he would have more titles and MVPs, but I'm not totally sold on him breaking Kareem's record, but he definitely would've had a good chance. I mean he's about 6000 points off, so it probably would've taken at least 3 seasons to do it, so he would've had a good chance
he would of have to.remember kareem played wayy out of his prime just stacking those #s.if he retired at say 37 it wouldn't take that long.

[gts]

some of you guys need to brush up on your NBA history.
MJ played DURING those league expansions. He played AGAINST those teams when they were just scrubs.
1987: Charlotte, Miami, Minnesota, Orlando
1993: Toronto
1994: Vancouver

He also played BEFORE there was a significant influx of talented Euro players.beat me too it, the leagues was at it's worst as far as talent dilution in the 90's due to the expansion and the european talent had yet to be seriously tapped into...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

beat me too it, the leagues was at it's worst as far as talent dilution in the 90's due to the expansion and the european talent had yet to be seriously tapped into...

try telling that to some of these clowns.

[GreatLakes]

[QUOTE=GreatLakes]

Jordan career playoff numbers up to age 29 are much better than Kobe. If you are going to argue that Kobe came into the league at age 18, then why is LeBron James, at age 23, have better numbers than Kobe in the playoffs.

Say What?

[GreatLakes]

He was! Like I've said before, we knew when MJ came into the league and there were talks of him being the best ever in 89. 1-9-8-9.

Hey just replied to this quote by you. Check the highlighted segment.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

beat me too it, the leagues was at it's worst as far as talent dilution in the 90's due to the expansion and the european talent had yet to be seriously tapped into...

btw, you know how certain posters say that MJ could have dropped 81 on that Raptors team just like Kobe did?
But look at all those scrub expansion teams he played against...many times. they sucked bigtime. he never dropped 81 on them.

(note: I'm not saying that 81 is the greatest thing ever, but it is a SICK number).

[guy]

he would of have to.remember kareem played wayy out of his prime just stacking those #s.if he retired at say 37 it wouldn't take that long.

All I'm saying is that if he never had his first 2 retirements, I doubt he would've played till 2003. He probably would've had the all-time scoring record, but considering how players are more injury-prone when they get older, its not anything definite.

[juju151111]

some of you guys need to brush up on your NBA history.
MJ played DURING those league expansions. He played AGAINST those teams when they were just scrubs.
1987: Charlotte, Miami, Minnesota, Orlando
1993: Toronto
1994: Vancouver

He also played BEFORE there was a significant influx of talented Euro players.
wat the floppers???MJ would eat them alive.MJ at 39 was averging 25ppg at the all star break before he blow his knee out.

[deion2123]

Ask Mark Jackson or Greg Anthony who they think will be better in the long run. But I am sure you will just dismiss their opinions.

PS. I do think MJ > Kobe, but some of the reasoning that you guys have is questionable.
lol..Greg Anthony sat on the bench the majority of the time and also never guarded MJ..plus he hates MJ cause all the trash MJ used to talk to the Knicks...Bird has a right to talk since he was going up against MJ all the time..he guarded MJ quite a few times as well..

[GreatLakes]

Agreed. If Jordan had played in the rules now, with as many expansion teams as there are now, and didn't retire during his prime (his prime was basically 10 years), Jordan's numbers would have been astronomical. Not a slite to Kobe, he's a great player and when it is all said and done will be considered along with some of the top guys, but I just think, having watched both for basically their entire careers, that Jordan is on a totally different level.


This is the second time you talk about the league being watered down compared to Jordans era. I beg to differ the league was more watered down during the 90's. The Hornets, Magic, Heat and Timberwolves were all new expansion teams that were added in the late 80's watering down the talent. The Canadian teams were added in 1996 diluting the talent even more. If anything the league is less watered down now. Over time the NBA was able to adjust and reach farther for talent ie overseas and high schoolers. The 90's are the most watered down period of the modern era.

[juju151111]

This is the second time you talk about the league being watered down compared to Jordans era. I beg to differ the league was more watered down during the 90's. The Hornets, Magic, Heat and Timberwolves were all new expansion teams that were added in the late 80's watering down the talent. The Canadian teams were added in 1996 diluting the talent even more. If anything the league is less watered down now. Over time the NBA was able to adjust and reach farther for talent ie overseas and high schoolers. The 90's are the most watered down period of the modern era.
The magics and Heat wasn't watered down for long since shaq and alanzo joined them in the early 90s.Unless u think shaq sucks.

[gts]

btw, you know how certain posters say that MJ could have dropped 81 on that Raptors team just like Kobe did?
But look at all those scrub expansion teams he played against...many times. they sucked bigtime. he never dropped 81 on them.

(note: I'm not saying that 81 is the greatest thing ever, but it is a SICK number).so true,

both are great players both played in different times, Good Solid arguments can and have been made both ways about defenses they faced, stats can be tossed back and forth all night each having once again a solid argument for either player... the fact is that MJ was a monster talent and possibly the greatest player ever, kobe is a great talent, inargubly the best in the league the last few years... the fact that both kobe groupies and kobe haters feel the need to keep beating the same drum over and over is a little sad..
I appreciate the fact I got to watch kareem in the 80's, jordan in the 90's and now kobe...
we get to watch now a player (kobe) who is in the argument constantly between fans, reporters, coaches, curren and ex players if he'll be the greatest of all time, how cool is that?

some will say he's not in the argument for GOAT, then they precede to argue the point, some say he is now (he's not) the wise person knows that you can't argue a player who is still writing his story out, kareem, mj and others have told their tales, I'm going to let let kobe finish telling his before judgement is passed and enjoy the hell out of it whle he does

[TheProphet]

btw, you know how certain posters say that MJ could have dropped 81 on that Raptors team just like Kobe did?
But look at all those scrub expansion teams he played against...many times. they sucked bigtime. he never dropped 81 on them.

(note: I'm not saying that 81 is the greatest thing ever, but it is a SICK number).

Jordan never had the luxury to play in this era with the rule changes and the overrated defense you expect from today. If he did, he could have scored 81 points if he was 25 or 26 with less shots since he would be shooting at a higher clip than his shooting percentage. I can estimate his numbers quite clearly:

26-42 FG (1-2 3PT) = 53 pts
28-32 FT = 28 pts

81 Pts.

Especially against the Raptors. Cake walk. If the league wanted higher scoring with all these rules changes. Imagine these rule changes benefiting the likes of Michael Jordan.

Rule changes makes guys that average 30.1 PPG in their career easily to 33-34 PPG or more.

[TheProphet]

so true,

both are great players both played in different times, Good Solid arguments can and have been made both ways about defenses they faced, stats can be tossed back and forth all night each having once again a solid argument for either player... the fact is that MJ was a monster talent and possibly the greatest player ever, kobe is a great talent, inargubly the best in the league the last few years... the fact that both kobe groupies and kobe haters feel the need to keep beating the same drum over and over is a little sad..
I appreciate the fact I got to watch kareem in the 80's, jordan in the 90's and now kobe...
we get to watch now a player (kobe) who is in the argument constantly between fans, reporters, coaches, curren and ex players if he'll be the greatest of all time, how cool is that?

some will say he's not in the argument for GOAT, then they precede to argue the point, some say he is now (he's not) the wise person knows that you can't argue a player who is still writing his story out, kareem, mj and others have told their tales, I'm going to let let kobe finish telling his before judgement is passed and enjoy the hell out of it whle he does

Tim Duncan 00s??? The guy won 3 finals MVP. Was the team's best player. Are you going to put Kobe over what this guy has accomplished? Incredible. I guess you are basing it on stats rather than impact. On Jordan's case, he had impact and the stats to back him up.

[guy]

This is the second time you talk about the league being watered down compared to Jordans era. I beg to differ the league was more watered down during the 90's. The Hornets, Magic, Heat and Timberwolves were all new expansion teams that were added in the late 80's watering down the talent. The Canadian teams were added in 1996 diluting the talent even more. If anything the league is less watered down now. Over time the NBA was able to adjust and reach farther for talent ie overseas and high schoolers. The 90's are the most watered down period of the modern era.

I don't agree with that. I don't think the league is watered down in either era. They had more teams in the late 80s and 90s, but basketball got way more popular before and during that time as well, largely cause of Magic/Bird/Jordan, meaning more people actually playing basketball after those guys came along, making it more competitive and resulting in a higher talent level. The increase in teams is basically offset by the increase in people actually playing the game.

[GreatLakes]

The magics and Heat wasn't watered down for long since shaq and alanzo joined them in the early 90s.Unless u think shaq sucks.

You're right. My bad. I forgot one player makes a good team.:rolleyes:

[juju151111]

You're right. My bad. I forgot one player makes a good team.:rolleyes:
penny hardaway.I don't know how ur so call 06 raptors with 3 second rules and no handchecking is stopping MJ prime Mj from getting 81.Peterson LMAO he would tourch his ass.

[KGTruthRayRay]

The league was easily at its lowest point in the '99-'04 era. The last few seasons it's been starting to pick up again.

[GreatLakes]

I don't agree with that. I don't think the league is watered down in either era. They had more teams in the late 80s and 90s, but basketball got way more popular before and during that time as well, largely cause of Magic/Bird/Jordan, meaning more people actually playing basketball after those guys came along, making it more competitive and resulting in a higher talent level. The increase in teams is basically offset by the increase in people actually playing the game.

Agreed the NBA became more popular in the mid to late 80's. But you don't see the results of that popularity for at least a decade. You can't just add 2 teams each in 1988-89 and two in 1989-90 and not expect the talent to be diluted. Not to mention 2 more teams in 1995-96. It takes time for scouting practices to change, just the overall evaluation of talent. Why do you think there are so many foreign players in the league right now. How many argentinians were in the league in th 80's or 90's? Now some of the best are from there (manu, oberto, scola, etc.) Look we have two teams in the finals who are led by guys who came straight out of high school. That has got to be a first in NBA history.

[Indian guy]

The NBA's dark days I'd say were 98-03. The High School obsession was in full flow and the league was littered with young guys who simply were not ready to contribute at this level. The level of play, especially offensively, dipped to an all time low. Plus there was no balance between the 2 conferences. The EC was a talent-less joke and thus turned half the postseason into a joke. Post-MJ we didn't see a single great EC team until Rasheed Wallace was traded to Detroit. Then we had the league-saving draft of 2003 which brought LeBron and Wade to the East. Then Shaq came to Miami and we finally found some much needed balance between the 2 conferences. Not to mention much needed talent.

In terms of quality of play the league I'd say peaked from the late 80's till early 90's. The Dream Team era in other words. You had the ideal balance between offense and defense to go along with BIG stars and a lot of great teams. That's also when the game's popularity was at its highest point.

[gts]

Jordan never had the luxury to play in this era with the rule changes and the overrated defense you expect from today.once again learn history, the NBA instituted the Zone defense before the no hand check rule, the zone slowed down the scoring near the basket and forced perimiter play and as such they modified the hand check rule, you can still hand check but not with a stiff arm...

jordan was an incredible post up player, that's why the bulls got by without a bigman and the zone would have a bigger effect him then kobe...

kobe is a better perimeter player than jordan was so the zone has had less of an effect on him

saying jordan would have scored more now is clearly wrong

[GreatLakes]

penny hardaway.I don't know how ur so call 06 raptors with 3 second rules and no handchecking is stopping MJ prime Mj from getting 81.Peterson LMAO he would tourch his ass.

Penny and Shaq played against a Jordan led team for exactly one season. Ooh that really stands the test of time.

I never mentioned anything about Kobe and 81. I think you're getting confused dude.

By the way they've always had the 3 second rule in the modern era on offense. If you're talking about the defensive 3 second rules, I think you're forgetting to mention the zone defenses that are now allowed that accompany it.

[juju151111]

once again learn history, the NBA instituted the Zone defense before the no hand check rule, the zone slowed down the scoring near the basket and forced perimiter play and as such they modified the hand check rule, you can still hand check but not with a stiff arm...

jordan was an incredible post up player, that's why the bulls got by without a bigman and the zone would have a bigger effect him then kobe...

kobe is a better perimeter player than jordan was so the zone has had less of an effect on him

saying jordan would have scored more now is clearly wrong
LOL when someone drive u can't handcheck them now.WTH are u talking about.The Zone defense doesn't get played alot.Teams use man to man with help defense and traps.Watch the playoffs teams.Noone uses zone defense.Zone defense gets played like 10% of the time the whole season.How does a zone stop Mj from shooting mid range jumpers???MJ is a great mid range jump shooter.He had a jumpshot since his rookie year from 20 ft.

[GreatLakes]

The NBA's dark days I'd say were 98-03. The High School obsession was in full flow and the league was littered with young guys who simply were not ready to contribute at this level. The level of play, especially offensively, dipped to an all time low. Plus there was no balance between the 2 conferences. The EC was a talent-less joke and thus turned half the postseason into a joke. Post-MJ we didn't see a single great EC team until Rasheed Wallace was traded to Detroit. Then we had the league-saving draft of 2003 which brought LeBron and Wade to the East. Then Shaq came to Miami and we finally found some much needed balance between the 2 conferences. Not to mention much needed talent.

In terms of quality of play the league I'd say peaked from the late 80's till early 90's. The Dream Team era in other words. You had the ideal balance between offense and defense to go along with BIG stars and a lot of great teams. That's also when the game's popularity was at its highest point.

How does the dark days not include the early 90's when you just added 4 teams and watered down the overall level of talent? Let me guess is it cuz the Bulls were winning championships then?

[juju151111]

Penny and Shaq played against a Jordan led team for exactly one season. Ooh that really stands the test of time.

I never mentioned anything about Kobe and 81. I think you're are getting confused dude.

By the way they've always had the 3 second rule in the modern era on offense. If you're talking about the defensive 3 second rules, I think you're forgetting to mention the zone defenses that are now allowed that accompany it.
I know u didn;t say it.I was responding to the people who said Mj couldn't score 81.LOL who cares if it was one time??They won.The knicks wasn't a watered down team,suns wasn't etc.. He beat them all the same.What zones do u speak of???All i see is people doubling and help defense.Who uses zones??What playoff teams uses Zone defense??

[guy]

Agreed the NBA became more popular in the mid to late 80's. But you don't see the results of that popularity for at least a decade. You can't just add 2 teams each in 1988-89 and two in 1989-90 and not expect the talent to be diluted. Not to mention 2 more teams in 1995-96. It takes time for scouting practices to change, just the overall evaluation of talent. Why do you think there are so many foreign players in the league right now. How many argentinians were in the league in th 80's or 90's? Now some of the best are from there (manu, oberto, scola, etc.) Look we have two teams in the finals who are led by guys who came straight out of high school. That has got to be a first in NBA history.

I don't know about that. I think it would've had their affect by then, maybe the league would have been affected by it for 2 or 3 years to adjust, but I don't see it being any longer. Either way, even if their was a dilution effect, it would have happened to every team, meaning Jordan's teams as well. So I don't see why people hold that against him.

[GreatLakes]

LOL when someone drive u can't handcheck them now.WTH are u talking about.The Zone defense doesn't get played alot.Teams use man to man with help defense and traps.Watch the playoffs teams.Noone uses zone defense.Zone defense gets played like 10% of the time the whole season.How does a zone stop Mj from shooting mid range jumpers???MJ is a great mid range jump shooter.He had a jumpshot since his rookie year from 20 ft.

Actually most teams use alot of elements of zone. If you watched the Lakers play the Spurs you would have seen Lamar Odom playing alot of one man zone. Which wouldn't have been allowed under the old rules.

Its tougher to get a midrange shot on a zone defense because those are the areas that you will have 2 defensive players collapse on an offensive player. Against a zone a slasher like Jordan would be great but more to draw the defenders and kick it to a shooter, not really to score for himself.

[gts]

LOL when someone drive u can't handcheck them now.WTH are u talking about.The Zone defense doesn't get played alot.Teams use man to man with help defense and traps.Watch the playoffs teams.Noone uses zone defense.Zone defense gets played like 10% of the time the whole season.How does a zone stop Mj from shooting mid range jumpers???MJ is a great mid range jump shooter.He had a jumpshot since his rookie year from 20 ft.
and many of those things were called illeagal defense before if the second defender didn't get right back to his man, now they can trap and actuall stop in an area and camp out if they want.

your correct few teams play a full zone all the time but they all play some form of defense now that allows players to gaurd further away and shadow for quick double teams.. watch lamar, he crusies the edge of the paint not covering anyone at all, just reacting to the ball... that would have been illegal before the zone was instituted

in the 80's 90's if a player got more than a couple arms lengths away from a player an illegal d was or could be called called, now players camp out all over, abandon perimeter shooters...

[GreatLakes]

I don't know about that. I think it would've had their affect by then, maybe the league would have been affected by it for 2 or 3 years to adjust, but I don't see it being any longer. Either way, even if their was a dilution effect, it would have happened to every team, meaning Jordan's teams as well. So I don't see why people hold that against him.

Not holding against Jordan. The poster RapsFan said the league is more watered down now then it was in Jordans era. Just pointing out that that is completely untrue.

I don't know about the effects only lasting 2-3 years. For example look at how dominant the original Dream Team was. Granted that was a collection of the greatest players ever. But they just stomped there competition. If the Dream Team were to play today, I don't think they would obliterate there competition like they did then, of course they would still win. But the talent level around the world is so much greater now, and thats what the NBA is currently tapping into.

[TheProphet]

Actually most teams use alot of elements of zone. If you watched the Lakers play the Spurs you would have seen Lamar Odom playing alot of one man zone. Which wouldn't have been allowed under the old rules.

Its tougher to get a midrange shot on a zone defense because those are the areas that you will have 2 defensive players collapse on an offensive player. Against a zone a slasher like Jordan would be great but more to draw the defenders and kick it to a shooter, not really to score for himself.

i don't see a difference between 2 players collapse and being double-triple team like Jordan faced during his time. Try again. Zone defense are for bad defenders. Just watch the NBA today to find out.

[juju151111]

Actually most teams use alot of elements of zone. If you watched the Lakers play the Spurs you would have seen Lamar Odom playing alot of one man zone. Which wouldn't have been allowed under the old rules.

Its tougher to get a midrange shot on a zone defense because those are the areas that you will have 2 defensive players collapse on an offensive player. Against a zone a slasher like Jordan would be great but more to draw the defenders and kick it to a shooter, not really to score for himself.
??? Kobe gets played one on one unless he gets hot which they start doubling on the catch.Look at all the series.Martin,Brewer, and bowen guarded him one on one.Zones are not that effective.If that were true Dwane wade wouldn't be averging 28ppg.Like i said Mj has a jumpshot and thats all u need really and his slashing abilty will get him pass anyone.They dounled and traped Mj all the time.Just like now.

[Da_Realist]

MJ faced tougher more physical defense. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89895)

[TheProphet]

MJ faced tougher more physical defense. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89895)

Kobe played with that physical defense, i don't think he's mentally tough. That's why he bytches to the referees for help.

[GreatLakes]

i don't see a difference between 2 players collapse and being double-triple team like Jordan faced during his time. Try again.


Sorry you don't see it. Let me try to clear it up for you. In a zone since you don't have to guard any particular player you can hedge towards an area. Hence a double can come quicker and more unexpectedly. In man to man it has to be a full out double because you can only double the man with the ball. How often would teams send a full out double on a guy just to leave another player wide open. You can't do this for long because you would get burnt in the long run. Especially difficult on a perimeter player like Jordan. Do you get it now. Let me know if I can make it clearer for you.

[juju151111]

i don't see a difference between 2 players collapse and being double-triple team like Jordan faced during his time. Try again. Zone defense are for bad defenders. Just watch the NBA today to find out.
Any team who plays a full zone defense is a fool, but they do make for alot of camping, but i still don't see how this will stop Mj from droping 81 on the worst defensive team in 06.

[crisoner]

Because these threads are being made...it can either mean two things....

Kobe fanatics are blowing him the f*ck up or Jordan fanatics are scared that his legacy is on the line.

I think it is a bit of both.....can we all just get along and show love to both? Really? Jordan IS and WILL ALWAYS be the GOAT. And Kobe's legacy is being created right in front of our eyes while we speak.

This should be the end of the conversation.....(but I know it won't)

[Indian guy]

How does the dark days not include the early 90's when you just added 4 teams and watered down the overall level of talent? Let me guess is it cuz the Bulls were winning championships then?

2 of those expansion teams(Heat and Hornets) were making the playoffs by '92 and '93 and Orlando rose quickly once they drafted Shaq. Besides, I judge an era but it's level of play(which is all about talent) and the balance between both conferences(how many great teams?). Nobody who saw the late 80's and early 90's will deny that the league saw it's best ball during that time period. And I just don't see how anybody who saw NBA basketball from the late 90's till about 03 can deny that that when was the lowest level of basketball was played.

[juju151111]

2 of those expansion teams(Heat and Hornets) were making the playoffs by '92 and '93 and Orlando rose quickly once they drafted Shaq. Besides, I judge an era but it's level of play(which is all about talent) and the balance between both conferences(how many great teams?). Nobody who saw the late 80's and early 90's will deny that the league saw it's best ball during that time period. And I just don't see how anybody who saw NBA basketball from the late 90's till about 03 can deny that that when was the lowest level of basketball was played.
I already told him about those teams rise, but they seem to not want to listen.

[gts]

gotta run gang been fun talking with you all, just one last thing, if the zone had no eefect why did scoring drop considerably to it's lowest since 1955 for two seasons after the zone was implemented? and the N.B.A. it was said stood for "No Baskets Allowed"

from a new york times article in 2003


That might be bearable if clubs ran more, but rather than push the ball to beat the zone downcourt, teams have attempted to break the zone by shooting 3-pointers. Detroit Coach Larry Brown says zone play would be less effective if the 3-point line were moved in a few feet from 23 feet 9 inches.

''The zone works because guys settle for long, bad shots,'' Brown said. ''If they moved the 3-point line in, that'd be a high price to pay for going zone.''

The zone was also supposed to cut down on isolation and two-man plays, but such strategies are nearly as prevalent as ever. That type of attack leaves two or three offensive players on the perimeter, making them quick to get back on defense to eliminate an opponent's fast break.

Thus the pace of the game has slowed even more, because it takes longer to attack a zone than a one-on-one defense, Rod Thorn, the Nets' president, said. That leads to fewer shots and fewer points.

Thorn, who was on the committee that instituted the zone, does not mind the new defenses, but he said the game would be boring if teams did not run against the zone or use motion offenses to beat it in the halfcourt.

''I think that fans want to see action,'' Thorn said. ''I think they want to see players in motion. I think they want to see spectacular things being done, and what virtually everybody is trying to do now is take away all of that by how they play defensively and offensively. If you are going to pay a lot of money to see games, you want to be entertained. I don't mean just run and gun, but fans don't want to leave the arena thinking, 'All I saw was a bunch of guys wrestling.' ''

Phil Jackson, the Los Angeles Lakers' coach, says the decline in scoring and shooting percentages is a result of such wrestling. He disagreed with the common notion that players cannot shoot as well as they used to and said instead that referees were simply allowing too much contact.

''The referees are not protecting the shooters like they have in the past,'' Jackson said. ''We say players in the N.B.A. complain about getting fouled, but you don't get any clear shots in the N.B.A. Everybody gets fouled on every shot in the N.B.A. now. Guys are getting hit underneath or in the arm, and it's changed the shooting percentages in the game.''

[GreatLakes]

2 of those expansion teams(Heat and Hornets) were making the playoffs by '92 and '93 and Orlando rose quickly once they drafted Shaq. Besides, I judge an era but it's level of play(which is all about talent) and the balance between both conferences(how many great teams?). Nobody who saw the late 80's and early 90's will deny that the league saw it's best ball during that time period. And I just don't see how anybody who saw NBA basketball from the late 90's till about 03 can deny that that when was the lowest level of basketball was played.

Just because those teams made the playoffs doesn't mean the overall level of talent wasn't diluted. How come the the dark days started in 1998? After Jordan's second retirement. Seems kind of arbitrary. Or is it? Are you trying to say that Jordans retirement sent the whole league spiraling as far as talent goes? Or level of play goes? The NBA wasn't the same after Jordan left but that was due to losing an iconic figure not a change in the game.

[juju151111]

gotta run gang been fun talking with you all, just one last thing, if the zone had no eefect why did scoring drop considerably to it's lowest since 1955 for two seasons after the zone was implemented? and the N.B.A. it was said stood for "No Baskets Allowed"

from a new york times article in 2003
hmmn cause the teams slowed down.The nba scoring has been going down since the 80s.Teams started using more set offense.The 90s showed just has much decrease has the 00s.Th main reason is teams slowed down and started taking more 3 point shot which lowered FG%.

[juju151111]

Just because those teams made the playoffs doesn't mean the overall level of talent wasn't diluted. How come the the dark days started in 1998? After Jordan's second retirement. Seems kind of arbitrary. Or is it? Are you trying to say that Jordans retirement sent the whole league spiraling as far as talent goes? Or level of play goes? The NBA wasn't the same after Jordan left but that was due to losing an iconic figure not a change in the game.
I agree with u to an extent.The game doesn't really change.U still have to put the basket in the hoop, but certain things changed Like the rules.I would like to see how kobe reacts if we put him in the 1990 series with the pistons.He would get hit alot which would tire him out and that all effects his driving abilty and such.

[hwliuLAP]

Th main reason is teams slowed down and started taking more 3 point shot which lowered FG%.

and I'm pretty sure you just proved gts point of view by simply pointing out that with zone defense it makes team to start settling for jump shots, unless they have a very good motion offense.

[juju151111]

and I'm pretty sure you just proved gts point of view by simply pointing out that with zone defense it makes team to start settling for jump shots, unless they have a very good motion offense.
How is it Zone defense when PPG was droping basically every year since the 80s.The 00s just added zones which just helped alittle for the ppg.

[GreatLakes]

I always find it funny that people say the defense was so much better in the 80's but then how come scoring was way higher then than it is now and shooting percentages were better. It makes no sense. Were players that much better then? I just have a hard time believing that. And don't say its cuz they ran more back then. Players would love to run now. Defenses just prevent them from doing so. I watched basketball throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's, and defenses are better now. Not necessarily because the schemes are better now but because the players are longer and faster. More physical defense doesn't necessarily make it better. Look at the Spurs D, not the most physical and always at the bottom of the fouls totals, but considered to be the best for the better part of this decade.

[KGTruthRayRay]

I always find it funny that people say the defense was so much better in the 80's but then how come scoring was way higher then than it is now and shooting percentages were better. It makes no sense.

Let me ask you a question: what would happen if you added 1-2 players to each team who were capable of dropping 14-18 points on any given night, gave every team a pass first PG capable of running an offense as well as scoring 12-17 ppg, and ended micromanagement by coaches. What would happen to the average team's ppg if these things occurred?

[GreatLakes]

I agree with u to an extent.The game doesn't really change.U still have to put the basket in the hoop, but certain things changed Like the rules.I would like to see how kobe reacts if we put him in the 1990 series with the pistons.He would get hit alot which would tire him out and that all effects his driving abilty and such.

Maybe. But if players like Jordan, Magic, Bird and Erving as well as countless others were able to endure the physical pounding and still play excellent ball, I don't see why Kobe wouldn't be able to do so as well. Those guys weren't super human compared to him.

[juju151111]

I always find it funny that people say the defense was so much better in the 80's but then how come scoring was way higher then than it is now and shooting percentages were better. It makes no sense. Were players that much better then? I just have a hard time believing that. And don't say its cuz they ran more back then. Players would love to run now. Defenses just prevent them from doing so. I watched basketball throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's, and defenses are better now. Not necessarily because the schemes are better now but because the players are longer and faster. More physical defense doesn't necessarily make it better. Look at the Spurs D, not the most physical and always at the bottom of the fouls totals, but considered to be the best for the better part of this decade.
The scoring was higher because people took less 3 point shots and ran more like u said.The FG% was higher because people took smarter shot.U will notice in the 90s when people started getting 3 happy the league FG% lowered. LOL the suns and the warriors seem to disagree with u.LOL longer and faster???The league hieght was at it's tallest in 87.WTH are u talking about.Longer??

[TheProphet]

Maybe. But if players like Jordan, Magic, Bird and Erving as well as countless others were able to endure the physical pounding and still play excellent ball, I don't see why Kobe wouldn't be able to do so as well. Those guys weren't super human compared to him.

If Kwame could play in this league, imagine how bad it can be.

[VCMVP1551]

It would be a little tougher for Jordan to post up Kobe versus say Majerle, Payton or Byron/Bryon? Russell or Reggie Miller.

Why? Kobe is smaller/skinnier than Russell and Majerle and skinnier than Jordan at the same height with shorter arms. Jordan in the 90's was much stronger than Kobe is. He could overpower Kobe and he had enough lift on his fadeaway to shoot over him in the post.[/QUOTE]

[ZHAKIDD532]

You cant say he's better now, but he's still only 28...if he reals off a few more titles, you may have to at least consider it in the future...not that he's the next MJ, but that's he's better...

[GreatLakes]

Let me ask you a question: what would happen if you added 1-2 players to each team who were capable of dropping 14-18 points on any given night, gave every team a pass first PG capable of running an offense as well as scoring 12-17 ppg, and ended micromanagement by coaches. What would happen to the average team's ppg if these things occurred?

Hey isn't that what the Suns have/had? Their scoring numbers weren't astronomical.

[juju151111]

Maybe. But if players like Jordan, Magic, Bird and Erving as well as countless others were able to endure the physical pounding and still play excellent ball, I don't see why Kobe wouldn't be able to do so as well. Those guys weren't super human compared to him.
Kobe complains about every call.Which are soft compared to the fouls back then.Go listen to some 80s broadcasting.U will here an announcer say they should start hitting him when he drives down the line to show him not to come down anymore.MJ was the one who took the most beaten because noone match his drving abilty.He still would come down the next play and drive on u while kobe would pull up for a contested 3.

[juju151111]

If Kwame could play in this league, imagine how bad it can be.
:roll: :lol :oldlol:

[GreatLakes]

The scoring was higher because people took less 3 point shots and ran more like u said.The FG% was higher because people took smarter shot.U will notice in the 90s when people started getting 3 happy the league FG% lowered. LOL the suns and the warriors seem to disagree with u.LOL longer and faster???The league hieght was at it's tallest in 87.WTH are u talking about.Longer??

Its the combination of quickness and length (that includes wingspan) that is outstanding today. 1987 may have had height, you had guys like Kareem, Parish, Ewing, Manute Bol, Uwe Blab, Mark Eaton all 7 footers and above thus its going to push the average height up. But did those guys possess the combo of speed and length like KG, Amare, Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Rasheed, Travis Outlaw, Pau Gasol, Kirilenko, Marion, Tyson Chandler. etc? Hell even Yao is quicker than all the centers I listed from the 80's except for Ewing.

Not saying any of the current players are better than the older players, just talking about the combo of speed and length

[Rocker09]

Kobe is playing at such a high level of basketball that people are starting to bring up the MJ-Kobe comparisons again. IMO, those comparisons should stop. Let Kobe be Kobe. He's already great as is, he doesn't need to be compared to the greatest basketball player of all time. Kobe has matured a lot this season, you're blind if you don't see this. He learned to trust his team mates more. Then again, this doesn't matter to a lot of his haters because whatever Kobe does, they find something negative about it. They keep on believing that Kobe raped that girl in colorado even though there are tons of evidence that it was in fact the girl that "initiated". When Kobe shoots too much they say he's a ballhog even though the team needs him to score in that situation. When Kobe passes too much, they say that he's not taking over the game when in fact, he's just trying to get his team mates in rhythm. They say he broke up the Lakers when in fact, it was shaq who was the main reason for the breakup. They say that Kobe is not a good leader even though he LED a team riddled w/ injuries to the NBA Finals. Funny thing is, no matter what people think about him, that won't stop him from achieving greatness.

[GreatLakes]

Kobe complains about every call.Which are soft compared to the fouls back then.Go listen to some 80s broadcasting.U will here an announcer say they should start hitting him when he drives down the line to show him not to come down anymore.MJ was the one who took the most beaten because noone match his drving abilty.He still would come down the next play and drive on u while kobe would pull up for a contested 3.

Magic complained on every call, he was one of the worst ever and thats coming from a Laker fan. Jordan complained a hell of alot. Thats your opinion that Kobe would stop driving to the basket. I think the recent Spurs series proves you wrong. Kobe continued to drive to the basket even though he wasn't being rewarded.

I think Shaq would disagree with you on who took the most beatings. :lol:

[kobeFANNER]

Kobe has rarely complained about Foul Couls this whole post season.

The "Jordan in Kobe's Era would be able to score 81" is nonsense also because there were still terrilbe teams when Jordan played. Jordan also wasn't playing on a terrible team in his prime so he didnt have to score 81 to beat the Raptors...so atleast give Kobe creditwhere it is due. 81 points was an amazing feat.

You can't Argue Kobe's Accomplishments > MJ's, but you can certainly argue that Kobe is just as skilled and just as good as Jordan.

EDIT: Loving all of these ludicris arguments....

Kobe complains on every call.... because Kobe is the only player that complains a lot.
Defense was better in MJ's era.... but we clearly ignore the stats that suggest otherwise
Talent is diluted in Kobe's era... ignoring that most of the expansion franchises came during Jordans earlier years.

[juju151111]

Magic complained on every call, he was one of the worst ever and thats coming from a Laker fan. Jordan complained a hell of alot. Thats your opinion that Kobe would stop driving to the basket. I think the recent Spurs series proves you wrong. Kobe continued to drive to the basket even though he wasn't being rewarded.

I think Shaq would disagree with you on who took the most beatings. :lol:
What does rewarding have to do with it.I said if Kobe was getting hit hard.He would pull up for his signature contested 3 point shot like he always does.

[juju151111]

Kobe has rarely complained about Foul Couls this whole post season.

The "Jordan in Kobe's Era would be able to score 81" is nonsense also because there were still terrilbe teams when Jordan played. Jordan also wasn't playing on a terrible team in his prime so he didnt have to score 81 to beat the Raptors...so atleast give Kobe creditwhere it is due. 81 points was an amazing feat.

You can't Argue Kobe's Accomplishments > MJ's, but you can certainly argue that Kobe is just as skilled and just as good as Jordan.
Mabe close in skills, but nt has good sorry.

[GreatLakes]

What does rewarding have to do with it.I said if Kobe was getting hit hard.He would pull up for his signature contested 3 point shot like he always does.

Yeah because Kobe is a p**sy and Jordan has the heart of a warrior. :rolleyes: Come on man, give Kobe a little bit more credit.

[juju151111]

Its the combination of quickness and length (that includes wingspan) that is outstanding today. 1987 may have had height, you had guys like Kareem, Parish, Ewing, Manute Bol, Uwe Blab, Mark Eaton all 7 footers and above thus its going to push the average height up. But did those guys possess the combo of speed and length like KG, Amare, Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Rasheed, Travis Outlaw, Pau Gasol, Kirilenko, Marion, Tyson Chandler. etc? Hell even Yao is quicker than all the centers I listed from the 80's except for Ewing.

Not saying any of the current players are better than the older players, just talking about the combo of speed and length
LMAO I am a tmac fan which means i watch yao ming alot and there us no way in HELL is yao ming faster then kareem,parish, and manute.WTH are u talking about??They did have players like that.patrick ewing,The hakeem,pippen,Gerald Wilkins,ralph,magic,worthy etc... i am sure there were more, buthey just never got media attention just like in 15 years noone will remember josh smith if he doesn't get deeper in the playoffs.

[TheProphet]

[QUOTE=juju151111]What does rewarding have to do with it.I said if Kobe was getting hit hard.He would pull up for his signature contested 3 point shot like he always does.[/QUOTE

Yeah because Kobe is a p**sy and Jordan has the heart of a warrior. :rolleyes: Come on man, give Kobe a little bit more credit.

If we did that, we would have to give George W. Bush credit.

[guy]

Not holding against Jordan. The poster RapsFan said the league is more watered down now then it was in Jordans era. Just pointing out that that is completely untrue.

I don't know about the effects only lasting 2-3 years. For example look at how dominant the original Dream Team was. Granted that was a collection of the greatest players ever. But they just stomped there competition. If the Dream Team were to play today, I don't think they would obliterate there competition like they did then, of course they would still win. But the talent level around the world is so much greater now, and thats what the NBA is currently tapping into.

Ok fair enough. Maybe not you but people definitely hold that against Jordan especially when comparing him to Magic and Bird.

Another thing is that Jordan/Magic/Bird are obviously not the only guys that have increased the popularity of the game. They were probably responsible for the biggest booms, but as time has gone by, basketball has gotten more popular as far as people playing the game.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=juju151111]What does rewarding have to do with it.I said if Kobe was getting hit hard.He would pull up for his signature contested 3 point shot like he always does.[/QUOTE

Yeah because Kobe is a p**sy and Jordan has the heart of a warrior. :rolleyes: Come on man, give Kobe a little bit more credit.
Who said Kobe is a *****???Kobe is in my top 3 fav players in the league.Kobe fans think i hate Kobe because i defend MJ.Kobe is the best player in the league, but if lj learns how to shoot then it will be a toss up.

[VCMVP1551]

But did those guys possess the combo of speed and length like KG, Amare, Josh Smith, Tim Duncan, Rasheed, Travis Outlaw, Pau Gasol, Kirilenko, Marion, Tyson Chandler. etc?

Marion is listed at f*cking 6'7" and that's generous. James Worthy was much bigger than him and he was quick and athletic.

[TheProphet]

LMAO I am a tmac fan which means i watch yao ming alot and there us no way in HELL is yao ming faster then kareem,parish, and manute.WTH are u talking about??They did have players like that.patrick ewing,The hakeem,pippen,Gerald Wilkins,ralph,magic,etc... i am sure there were more, buthey just never got media attention just like in 15 years noone will remember josh smith if he doesn't get deeper in the playoffs.

If you take Josh Smith highlights, you could turn him into a megastar. Hell, they have to say a lot of stuff about Kobe to spark some interest. Imagine they start hyping Josh Smith into this monster. Whenever he scores, "This guy's impossible to guard." It's the voices you hear when you watch the game that brainwashes you into believing he's truly the one.

[KGTruthRayRay]

Hey isn't that what the Suns have/had? Their scoring numbers weren't astronomical.

Yeah, now what if instead of one team like that, there were 4-6 teams like that, and then another half dozen just a notch below. What would the league scoring average look like?

My point is that while defense has gotten better, it hasn't gotten better to the extent that a strict look at the numbers suggests, because team offense hasn't remained the same. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Teams averaged a shade under 100 ppg this season (99.9) -- if all of the changes I mentioned came to pass, you'd probably be looking at a league wide average of 103-105 ppg. In 1992 and '93 it was 105.3 ppg.

[juju151111]

Yeah, now what if instead of one team like that, there were 4-6 teams like that, and then another half dozen just a notch below. What would the league scoring average look like?

My point is that while defense has gotten better, it hasn't gotten better to the extent that a strict look at the numbers suggests, because team offense hasn't remained the same. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Teams averaged a shade under 100 ppg this season (99.9) -- if all of the changes I mentioned came to pass, you'd probably be looking at a league wide average of 103-105 ppg. In 1992 and '93 it was 105.3 ppg.
exactly like i said ppg was going down since the 90s.So how was it the zone that made it do that?

[GreatLakes]

LMAO I am a tmac fan which means i watch yao ming alot and there us no way in HELL is yao ming faster then kareem,parish, and manute.WTH are u talking about??They did have players like that.patrick ewing,The hakeem,pippen,Gerald Wilkins,ralph,magic,etc... i am sure there were more, buthey just never got media attention just like in 15 years noone will remember josh smith if he doesn't get deeper in the playoffs.

Yeah yao was pushin it. :oldlol:

Wilkins? Not nearly as good a defender as any of the guys I listed. Was only 6'6" and didn't have an exceptional wing span. Doesn't have the length like I am talking about. You're reaching there just like I reached on Yao.:)

Guys like Paul Pressey or Sid Moncrief would have been better examples cuz they are better defenders but they don't possess the length of guys like I am talking about.

The combo of length and quickness isl greater now. I don't need media attention I watched these guys all play.

[juju151111]

Yeah yao was pushin it. :oldlol:

Wilkins? Not nearly as good a defender as any of the guys I listed. Was only 6'6" and didn't have an exceptional wing span. Doesn't have the length like I am talking about. You're reaching there just like I reached on Yao.:)

Guys like Paul Pressey or Sid Moncrief would have been better examples cuz they are better defenders but they don't possess the length of guys like I am talking about.

The combo of length and quickness isl greater now. I don't need media attention I watched these guys all play.
i forgot about monchrief.Wilkins was a good defender.Like someone else posted james worthy had hat too.

[GreatLakes]

Yeah, now what if instead of one team like that, there were 4-6 teams like that, and then another half dozen just a notch below. What would the league scoring average look like?

My point is that while defense has gotten better, it hasn't gotten better to the extent that a strict look at the numbers suggests, because team offense hasn't remained the same. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Teams averaged a shade under 100 ppg this season (99.9) -- if all of the changes I mentioned came to pass, you'd probably be looking at a league wide average of 103-105 ppg. In 1992 and '93 it was 105.3 ppg.

And thats my point as well. That defenses have gotten better. Not worse like so many people in the thread and on this board want to believe. Sure the decline in scoring averages is a combination of many factors. And improved defenses is one of them.
:cheers:

[juju151111]

I have also yet to see a magic johnson in this era.Where is ur 6'9 pg who can run the break???

[juju151111]

And thats my point as well. That defenses have gotten better. Not worse like so many people in the thread and on this board want to believe. Sure the decline in scoring averages is a combination of many factors. And improved defenses is one of them.
:cheers:
maybe, but then the defense was great in the 90s based on ur logic the ppg lowered from the 80s right??

[GreatLakes]

Marion is listed at f*cking 6'7" and that's generous. James Worthy was much bigger than him and he was quick and athletic.

Not his height that I am talkin bout. Dude has the wing span of a guy that is like 6'10 or 6'11" or something. Same goes for Josh Smith he is only 6'8" but has the wing span of a 7 footer. Combine this with these guys exceptional speed/quicknes and you make for a guy who can cover alot of ground quickly and alter shots.

[DuMa]

I have also yet to see a magic johnson in this era.Where is ur 6'9 pg who can run the break???

Shaun Livingston :(

[GreatLakes]

I have also yet to see a magic johnson in this era.Where is ur 6'9 pg who can run the break???

Um I think his name is LeBron James. I think you can youtube him. He's up and coming, you'll hear more about him in the next few years. Mark my words.:)

[hotsizzle]

WHy even make the thread? Why are you comparing them if you dont want others comparing them?

[GreatLakes]

maybe, but then the defense was great in the 90s based on ur logic the ppg lowered from the 80s right??

Yeah defenses in the 90's are better than the eighties, and the 00's are better than the 90's.. Because athletes are getting better. Its just evolution. Like I said the scoring drop is a combination of factors, one of which is improved defenses.

I hope you're not trying to say that this disproves the league got watered down in the 90's. :)

[juju151111]

Shaun Livingston :(
:roll: :ohwell: :lol :banana: :oldlol: :hammerhead: :sleeping :eek: :wtf:

[TheProphet]

And thats my point as well. That defenses have gotten better. Not worse like so many people in the thread and on this board want to believe. Sure the decline in scoring averages is a combination of many factors. And improved defenses is one of them.
:cheers:

Offenses have gotten worse. Just watch a Detroit-Cavs game or Celts-Detroit or LAL-Spurs game.

[juju151111]

Um I think his name is LeBron James. I think you can youtube him. He's up and coming, you'll hear more about him in the next few years. Mark my words.:)
lj is not a pg and he doesn't run the break like magic.

[juju151111]

Yeah defenses in the 90's are better than the eighties, and the 00's are better than the 90's.. Because athletes are getting better. Its just evolution. Like I said the scoring drop is a combination of factors, one of which is improved defenses.

I hope you're not trying to say that this disproves the league got watered down in the 90's. :)
how could a water down league play defense???:confusedshrug: yeah evolution happened ,but 3pt shooting and bad decisions were why the FG& lowered and the ppg droped.

[GreatLakes]

lj is not a pg and he doesn't run the break like magic.

Come on man why are you such a stickler for titles. So LJ is just a SF right? He could easily play the point if he wanted to. And he can run the break just fine, maybe not as well as Magic, but the argument could be made that no player in history has run the break as well as Magic Johnson.

[juju151111]

Come on man why are you such a stickler for titles. So LJ is just a SF right? He could easily play the point if he wanted to. And he can run the break just fine, maybe not as well as Magic, but the argument could be made that no player in history has run the break as well as Magic Johnson.
true

[GreatLakes]

how could a water down league play defense???:confusedshrug: yeah evolution happened ,but 3pt shooting and bad decisions were why the FG& lowered and the ppg droped.

Huh? What? What you are saying makes no sense.

Players got dumber huh?

[TheProphet]

Come on man why are you such a stickler for titles. So LJ is just a SF right? He could easily play the point if he wanted to. And he can run the break just fine, maybe not as well as Magic, but the argument could be made that no player in history has run the break as well as Magic Johnson.

Give LeBron the weapons needed to run the break. The players he has aren't fast break material. Wally? Delonte? Z? He needs a Shawn Marion on one side, a Josh Smith on the other.

Imagine a lineup like this:

C Big Z
PF Marion
SF Josh Smith
SG Wally
PG LeBron.

[juju151111]

Huh? What? What you are saying makes no sense.

Players got dumber huh?
I meant they took to much 3s then taking jumpers closer to the basket.Ok lets say teams stop practicing 3pt shot has often and instead practice jumpers from 0ft and in and practice 3s only a small amount.Look for a rise in FG%.The closer u are the easier the shot.I's siple really.

[GreatLakes]

I meant they took to much 3s then taking jumpers closer to the basket.Ok lets say teams stop practicing 3pt shot has often and instead practice jumpers from 0ft and in and practice 3s only a small amount.Look for a rise in FG%.The closer u are the easier the shot.I's siple really.

So the implementation of the 3 point line is the sole reason that FG% and team scoring dropped? It has nothing to do with improved defense at all? It really is simple when you think of it that way.:hammerhead:

Can I ask how old you are and when you started watching the NBA?

[juju151111]

So the implementation of the 3 point line is the sole reason that FG% and team scoring dropped? It has nothing to do with improved defense at all? It really is simple when you think of it that way.:hammerhead:

Can I ask how old you are and when you started watching the NBA?
i never said it had noting to do with it.lol i said players started taking more 3s in the 90s and 00s which lowered.Teams didn't really take alot of 3s in the 80s and they also ran more which leads to quicker points.

[GreatLakes]

i never said it had noting to do with it.lol i said players started taking more 3s in the 90s and 00s which lowered.Teams didn't really take alot of 3s in the 80s and they also ran more which leads to quicker points.

Ok I agree with that statement. But the whole premise of our debate was that I say that defenses are better now compared to then and you I thought was saying defenses were better then. So if we both agree that defenses are better now we've got nothing to debate.
:cheers:

So how's the weather where you are at?

[juju151111]

Ok I agree with that statement. But the whole premise of our debate was that I say that defenses are better now compared to then and you I thought was saying defenses were better then. So if we both agree that defenses are better now we've got nothing to debate.
:cheers:

So how's the weather where you are at?
ok i will say the defense has improve a little.not a huge amount duo, but handchecking and stuff made it hardewr back then tioo.

[KGTruthRayRay]

And thats my point as well. That defenses have gotten better. Not worse like so many people in the thread and on this board want to believe. Sure the decline in scoring averages is a combination of many factors. And improved defenses is one of them.
:cheers:

However, I don't think the defense on wing players has gotten better. I think the incidence of high scoring games from perimeter players, the number of said players atop the scoring average charts, and the yearly FTA leaders pre- and post-2006 handcheck rule attests to that.

In this thread you have gts saying that Jordan wouldn't score more than he did back then if he played today. And I am far from a person who says stuff like "Jordan would average 40 ppg!" (he wouldn't). However, within the last two years we've had Kobe at 32-35+ ppg, Lebron at 31+ ppg, Iverson at 33.5 ppg, Arenas/Melo ~30 ppg etc. So what are we saying? That Jordan is only these players' equal in terms of scoring the ball? I mean, come on. :oldlol:

[gts]

However, I don't think the defense on wing players has gotten better. I think the incidence of high scoring games from perimeter players, the number of said players atop the scoring average charts, and the yearly FTA leaders pre- and post-2006 handcheck rule attests to that.

In this thread you have gts saying that Jordan wouldn't score more than he did back then if he played today. And I am far from a person who says stuff like "Jordan would average 40 ppg!" (he wouldn't). However, within the last two years we've had Kobe at 32-35+ ppg, Lebron at 31+ ppg, Iverson at 33.5 ppg, Arenas/Melo ~30 ppg etc. So what are we saying? That Jordan is only these players' equal in terms of scoring the ball? I mean, come on. :oldlol:Hey Loki,


well my argument may have been misconstrued or i said it badly, (i was in a hurry) where i feel jordan would not score more nowdays, also i feel he wouldn't score any less, maybe a slight change one way or the other but nothing that would be earth shattering...

i feel the whole defense is or was better now vs. then argument a little mistelling because for everything they may have given to offensive players to succeed they have also made things tougher in another area...

it's kinda like talking 3pt average in the 90's vs' 70's or 2000's yeah a couple players had their best years when the line waas 20 inches closer but it's not the whole league went bananas

[Emile]

The most ridiculous thing about these comparisons is bringing up the era factor.
I can see for example how that would apply to many different types of players but Kobe and Jordan? The two of perhaps 5 flawless players in the history of the game? It's beating the dead horse and serves no purpose.
Physical defenses wouldn't slow Kobe down. More athletic defenders wouldn't slow Jordan down. So why the hell do you keep bringing it up? It's pointless.
Jordan at the age of 40 averaged big numbers against those "athletic" defenders.
Kobe at the early age of 20 already averaged 20 ppg. He averaged 28.5 and 30 ppg respectively in 2001 and 2003, before the new rules really were implemented. He was going off just as easily in 2003 when he'd score 40 points for 9 games in a row.

I can really understand many arguments regarding Kobe-Jordan. But that's the one I can't. That is by far the most pointless one. And you spend so much time obsessing over it. To prove how the other would struggle in a different era. Well folks, neither would. They're both too good, can rely on skills, athleticism, too smart and can always adjust to everything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing a good cop. I'm all for comparisons, tension, whatever. But how pointless it is to compare eras? Grow up.
It wouldn't change a thing. Focus on more important things regarding the two. And there surely are many.

[RoseCity07]

Yes we all know Jordan is better than Kobe. It's not going to change. Kobe just doesn't have the same talents that Jordan had.

[Da_Realist]

The most ridiculous thing about these comparisons is bringing up the era factor.
I can see for example how that would apply to many different types of players but Kobe and Jordan? The two of perhaps 5 flawless players in the history of the game? It's beating the dead horse and serves no purpose.
Physical defenses wouldn't slow Kobe down. More athletic defenders wouldn't slow Jordan down. So why the hell do you keep bringing it up? It's pointless.
Jordan at the age of 40 averaged big numbers against those "athletic" defenders.
Kobe at the early age of 20 already averaged 20 ppg. He averaged 28.5 and 30 ppg respectively in 2001 and 2003, before the new rules really were implemented. He was going off just as easily in 2003 when he'd score 40 points for 9 games in a row.

I can really understand many arguments regarding Kobe-Jordan. But that's the one I can't. That is by far the most pointless one. And you spend so much time obsessing over it. To prove how the other would struggle in a different era. Well folks, neither would. They're both too good, can rely on skills, athleticism, too smart and can always adjust to everything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing a good cop. I'm all for comparisons, tension, whatever. But how pointless it is to compare eras? Grow up.
It wouldn't change a thing. Focus on more important things regarding the two. And there surely are many.

When was Kobe ever put on his butt and had to respond over and over again? He was facing single coverage in 2001 and 2003, no?

Did Kobe have to deal with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a5GB_1gub8) as the main option?

[GreatLakes]

However, I don't think the defense on wing players has gotten better. I think the incidence of high scoring games from perimeter players, the number of said players atop the scoring average charts, and the yearly FTA leaders pre- and post-2006 handcheck rule attests to that.

In this thread you have gts saying that Jordan wouldn't score more than he did back then if he played today. And I am far from a person who says stuff like "Jordan would average 40 ppg!" (he wouldn't). However, within the last two years we've had Kobe at 32-35+ ppg, Lebron at 31+ ppg, Iverson at 33.5 ppg, Arenas/Melo ~30 ppg etc. So what are we saying? That Jordan is only these players' equal in terms of scoring the ball? I mean, come on. :oldlol:

I agree with alot of what you're saying about Jordan. I agree with what Emile said about Jordan and Kobe being able to excel in any era.

However, I do think that the defense on wing players has gotten better. Alot has to do with the increased athleticism of players these days, going back to my length and speed debate a few pages earlier. But when you just think about the role of the zone defense, which is to force jump shots this is going to make it tougher on perimeter players. Just think about what the spurs did to Lebron last year, they packed the middle and forced lebron to shoot jumpers. And it worked to perfection. Some of the defenses they employed would have been illegal under the old rules. Sure the no hand check rule has helped out perimeter players, but when you think about the zone defenses teams can now play, this more than offsets it. This is especially evident during the playoffs when teams have the time to implement specific defenses to shut down a player.

[KGTruthRayRay]

However, I do think that the defense on wing players has gotten better. Alot has to do with the increased athleticism of players

I disagree. In fact, individual defenders were better back then imo, while team defenses are better today for the most part.

Just think about what the spurs did to Lebron last year, they packed the middle and forced lebron to shoot jumpers. And it worked to perfection. Some of the defenses they employed would have been illegal under the old rules. Sure the no hand check rule has helped out perimeter players, but when you think about the zone defenses teams can now play, this more than offsets it. This is especially evident during the playoffs when teams have the time to implement specific defenses to shut down a player.

Yeah, but what they did to Lebron was a gimmick defense. If they did that to Jordan (at any age), he'd literally average 40 against them. Good luck playing 8 feet off Jordan and giving him wide open 14-19 footers. :oldlol:

My point is not that Jordan would average 40 today, only that his numbers wouldn't be effected save for a slight drop in FG% (say 49.5-51.5% instead of 52-54%).

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Did Kobe have to deal with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a5GB_1gub8) as the main option?


how 'bout this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7V8ZukXsWmk

[Da_Realist]

how 'bout this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7V8ZukXsWmk


I thought about using that clip, but I didn't want to seem mean-spirited.

There is a clear difference between having to face a consistent physical challenge to win a playoff series and a one-time cheap shot.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I thought about using that clip, but I didn't want to seem mean-spirited.

There is a clear difference between having to face a consistent physical challenge to win a playoff series and a one-time cheap shot.

I know what you mean.
Raja Bell is a very good defender, but he is no Joe Dumars (and the Suns are a far cry from Bad Boys).

[GreatLakes]

I disagree. In fact, individual defenders were better back then imo, while team defenses are better today for the most part.


Yeah, but what they did to Lebron was a gimmick defense. If they did that to Jordan (at any age), he'd literally average 40 against them. Good luck playing 8 feet off Jordan and giving him wide open 14-19 footers. :oldlol:

My point is not that Jordan would average 40 today, only that his numbers wouldn't be effected save for a slight drop in FG% (say 49.5-51.5% instead of 52-54%).

Yeah not saying Jordan wouldn't torch any defense cuz he would. Just saying its harder for perimeter players cuz of the factors I mentioned. There are alot of players who have a shaky jumpshot but you give them a lane and they're dynamite (ala Lebron).

Defense is all about effort imo. Still think todays players are overall better athletes, so if they give the effort they are better ala Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Tayshaun Prince, etc.

[goldgrill4me]

lol the more athletic, longer defenders is a joke. here are four of the best perimeter defenders in the league bowen, artest, bell and battier. none of which are freakishly long and incredibly athletic.

[GreatLakes]

lol the more athletic, longer defenders is a joke. here are four of the best perimeter defenders in the league bowen, artest, bell and battier. none of which are freakishly long and incredibly athletic.

Actually I would disagree with that. Battier and Artest have really long arms for their size.

Plus the long and quick theory goes to the overall NBA of today compared to that of the 80's. Just look at all the guys these days, KG, Duncan, Camby, Prince, Kirilenko, Gasol, Marion, Amare, Outlaw, Dalembert just to name a few they are far more conspicuous these days than in the 80's. Don't necessarily look at height, look at wingspan. These guys have McHale like wing spans but are far quicker.

[Killer_Instinct]

They'll the same. They have agendas. Promote LeBrons, Wades, Dwight, at all cost. Hell, by creating these stars, they may create more viewership. In cable news, what do they want, more viewership so they create their own stars from the famous cop who killed his wife to Illinois, to Barack Obama "We can change this word through words not action" speeches.


You don't say....:rolleyes:

[dazed27]

I disagree. In fact, individual defenders were better back then imo, while team defenses are better today for the most part.


Yeah, but what they did to Lebron was a gimmick defense. If they did that to Jordan (at any age), he'd literally average 40 against them. Good luck playing 8 feet off Jordan and giving him wide open 14-19 footers. :oldlol:

My point is not that Jordan would average 40 today, only that his numbers wouldn't be effected save for a slight drop in FG% (say 49.5-51.5% instead of 52-54%).

retarded...

everything on this thread is subjective!!
How Many Licks Does It Take To Get To The Tootsie Roll Center Of A Tootsie Pop?

The world may never know....

Would jordan be as good today as he was back then, or would kobe be as good back then as he is today?

THe world may never know....

or atleast untill we go to heaven and ask god!

[amfirst]

Just about every coach and owners said that the defense today is way better than back during the Jordan era, so stop living in the past.

We will never know who is better, since they don't play in the same era.

Plus, a rookie high school Kobe was pretty good facing a veteran Jordan in 97, and he is way better now.

:pimp:

[Poseidon]

How Many Licks Does It Take To Get To The Tootsie Roll Center Of A Tootsie Pop?

212. I can confirm this to be 100% true.


Would jordan be as good today as he was back then, or would kobe be as good back then as he is today?

Yes and even better


or atleast untill we go to heaven and ask god!

Heaven is a myth.

[baseketball4life]

retarded...

everything on this thread is subjective!!
How Many Licks Does It Take To Get To The Tootsie Roll Center Of A Tootsie Pop?

The world may never know....

Would jordan be as good today as he was back then, or would kobe be as good back then as he is today?

THe world may never know....

or atleast untill we go to heaven and ask god!
didn't Jordan play in 03? put up 20 ppg or so i think, and 03 is considered the "now" era to me. he put up 23 ppg in 02 at age 39, 20 ppg in 03 at age 40... that was in this era... imagine him 16 years younger! 16 years! 23 ppg would shoot up like a rocket


no matter what i will always prefer Kobe though, both are my favorites of all time but Kobe is slightly ahead to me and always will be

[Manute for Ever!]

One point I would like to add to the handchecking argument. The absence of handchecking makes it far easier now for a defender to fall for fakes. As a defender, if you have your hand on the offensive players mid-section, He can jab-step, shoulder-fake, head-fake, etc. as much as he wants, but you wont feel any real lateral movement until his whole body was was ready to move, thus the offensive player could really only hope to burn the D off the dribble, rather than fake him out of his shoes (unless he is a bad defender).

[plowking]

With all respect, that's more like a popularity contest than anything else. I've heard more people saying that "he's the Kobe Bryant of..." than "he's the Bill Russell of...". This doesn't make Kobe any greater than Russell was.
About the rest and how Kobe < Jordan, I agree, but it's nothing we hear for the 1st (or even 100th) time.

No its really not.

[lovethetriangle]

wha'd I miss?

[ExtremeHops]

Kobe is the best player in the league and has been over the last 4-5 years.

Lebron is currently the 2nd best player but will take over from Kobe and dominate the NBA soon.

Jordan was the dominant player throughout the 90s and is the GOAT (without question)

[Da_Realist]

Just about every coach and owners said that the defense today is way better than back during the Jordan era, so stop living in the past.


Proof? This says the opposite. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89895)

[KGTruthRayRay]

One point I would like to add to the handchecking argument. The absence of handchecking makes it far easier now for a defender to fall for fakes. As a defender, if you have your hand on the offensive players mid-section, He can jab-step, shoulder-fake, head-fake, etc. as much as he wants, but you wont feel any real lateral movement until his whole body was was ready to move, thus the offensive player could really only hope to burn the D off the dribble, rather than fake him out of his shoes (unless he is a bad defender).

Yup, very true. It also frees up room for your jumper, since guys have to give you more space now since they can't put their hands on you to counter the first step.

[Da_Realist]

One point I would like to add to the handchecking argument. The absence of handchecking makes it far easier now for a defender to fall for fakes. As a defender, if you have your hand on the offensive players mid-section, He can jab-step, shoulder-fake, head-fake, etc. as much as he wants, but you wont feel any real lateral movement until his whole body was was ready to move, thus the offensive player could really only hope to burn the D off the dribble, rather than fake him out of his shoes (unless he is a bad defender).

Very good point.

[ukplayer4]

always hilarious.

why does kobe have to do nothing as good as mike to be considered as good(by kobe hommers)

1.statistically- mj blows kobe out of the water.
2.as a player- mj was quicker, more athletic, scored on better deffenders with greater ease, had bigger hands, better deffender and a better all around game by far.
3. accomplishments- 5mvps>1 6 titles as the go to guy>3 as the support player dpoy>0 dpoy 6 finals mvps> 0 finals mvps it goes on and on and on.


i just dont understand how or where kobe is even comparable, kobe fans are saying if he wins a couple more titles and a couple more mvps he will be at mikes level HOW YOU DUMB ****S? HOW? then he will have accomplished what nearly half of what michael did as a clearly inferiour player


mind boggeling.

[guy]

However, I do think that the defense on wing players has gotten better.

Really? Then what's up with the inflation in scoring for wing players for the past few years and wouldn't that mean the value for big men, especially centers, would've actually went up instead of considerably down?

[Da_Realist]

This is getting too complicated. It's really very simple. MJ played against better, more physical defenses than Kobe. All this over-analyzing the numbers just confuses the issue.

Everything beyond that is subjective.

[allball]

12/97 Kobe 33 Jordan 36
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TC-kKQMue4g

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199712170CHI.html

2/98

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199802010LAL.html

[mjbulls23]

Just about every coach and owners said that the defense today is way better than back during the Jordan era, so stop living in the past.

We will never know who is better, since they don't play in the same era.

Plus, a rookie high school Kobe was pretty good facing a veteran Jordan in 97, and he is way better now.

:pimp:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1674598&postcount=91

[Da_Realist]

12/97 Kobe 33 Jordan 36
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TC-kKQMue4g

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199712170CHI.html

2/98

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199802010LAL.html

Good post. It's too bad we couldn't see these guys compete at their peak. 7 or 8 years earlier for MJ and 7 or 8 years later for Kobe.

That Lakers team was STACKED back then. Also, I forgot Scottie was injured during the December 97 game until I saw the clip.

[KGTruthRayRay]

12/97 Kobe 33 Jordan 36
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TC-kKQMue4g

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199712170CHI.html



Your point? Kobe scored 17 of those 36 points in the 4th against the benchwarmers, with Jordan on the bench icing his knees in a blowout. He scored about 8 of those points with Jordan guarding him (2 shots and some FT's iirc).

[RoseCity07]

This is what Jordan does to a Kobe and Shaq Laker team:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuuEUJApCOI

Just watch this Jordan clip if you want to know the kind of things he was doing at the early stages of his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUF8ZiMF9xw&fmt=18

He wasn't a scrub like Kobe was when he came into the league. He was owning kids.

I read Jordan is the only player to lead the league in scoring and win the DPOY award in the same season.

[Da_Realist]

Young Kobe was going at the old man, and the old man fended him off a little bit. It's interesting, but doesn't really say much outside of that. The Bulls were an older team playing without Pippen for 30+ games (including the first game in Chicago) and they were pacing themselves for the playoffs. Kobe was a young, determined guy playing with house money. He pretty much came off the bench to score. Didn't need to set up the team or lead in any way. He pretty much had free reign in both games.

It was fun to see during the drone of the regular season. I don't think it was any bigger than that. I always got the sense that Kobe was aiming for MJ but MJ never really took him that seriously. That's not a diss to Kobe but at that point in his career he had been through too much to pointedly go after Kobe in that way aside from a few isolated instances.

I'm amazed at what Kobe could do at such a young age, but I'm also amazed at what MJ could do at 35 years old. What other 35 year old guard could hold his own against such a young skilled and determined challenger?

[allball]

This is what Jordan does to a Kobe and Shaq Laker team:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuuEUJApCOI

Just watch this Jordan clip if you want to know the kind of things he was doing at the early stages of his career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUF8ZiMF9xw&fmt=18

He wasn't a scrub like Kobe was when he came into the league. He was owning kids.

I read Jordan is the only player to lead the league in scoring and win the DPOY award in the same season.

Kobe was 18 years old. Jordan was 21 and had played 3 years under Dean Smith. at 21 Kobe won his first championship. neither is relevant but all are true.

[allball]

Your point? Kobe scored 17 of those 36 points in the 4th against the benchwarmers, with Jordan on the bench icing his knees in a blowout. He scored about 8 of those points with Jordan guarding him (2 shots and some FT's iirc).

my only point was to show a video of Jordan against Kobe.

[RoseCity07]

Kobe was 18 years old. Jordan was 21 and had played 3 years under Dean Smith. at 21 Kobe won his first championship. neither is relevant but all are true.


You mean Shaq carried Kobe right? You know I'm sure there are 3 year players that got titles off other super stars backs. Jordan was the focus of the the entire defense and they couldn't stop him, not even the great Celtics teams.

It doesn't need to be made into a topic at all. Jordan is on a level much higher than Kobe will ever dream of being on. Kobe couldn't do what Jordan did on offense with Shaq drawing 3 defenders on every play.

[allball]

You mean Shaq carried Kobe right? You know I'm sure there are 3 year players that got titles off other super stars backs. Jordan was the focus of the the entire defense and they couldn't stop him, not even the great Celtics teams.

It doesn't need to be made into a topic at all. Jordan is on a level much higher than Kobe will ever dream of being on. Kobe couldn't do what Jordan did on offense with Shaq drawing 3 defenders on every play.

Jordan was swept twice by those Celtics teams. at 18/19 Jordan was carried to an NCAA championship, Kobe to an NBA championship in your words.

why would Kobe do what Jordan did when he had a great center? once that great center left he averaged 35PPG. plus he scored 81. something Jordan never did on anybody.

I've been a Jordan fan since I saw him play in the McDonald's All America game but doesn't cloud my vision that Kobe is one of the greatest ever and could play with Jordan on the court.

[Da_Realist]

why would Kobe do what Jordan did when he had a great center? once that great center left he averaged 35PPG. plus he scored 81. something Jordan never did on anybody.

Different everything.

1) Kobe scored 81 because he could...and he wanted to. MJ didn't score just to score, relatively speaking. There were plenty of times he could have done so if he wanted to. Against quality competition, too. Look at the Portland game in the finals where he hit 6 treys in the first half. He barely played in the second half and rested quite a bit in the first half. It's not inconceivable for him to have been able to score 40 points in the first half and another 30 in the second if he was motivated to score. Against a Finals opponent. He definitely could have against the Sacramento Kings in some meaningless game in February.

2) MJ played against better defense.

3) MJ actually played defense. A lot more consistently than Kobe. That takes energy and wears a player down over the course of a game and over the course of a season. How much more effective of a scorer would he have been if he only concentrated on the offense? How would it have changed Kobe's game if he played defense as consistently as MJ did over the course of his career?


I've been a Jordan fan since I saw him play in the McDonald's All America game but doesn't cloud my vision that Kobe is one of the greatest ever and could play with Jordan on the court.

I see what you're saying, but head-to-head matchups or one-on-one games don't really determine who the better player is. I don't think Larry Bird could win a one-on-one matchup with anybody. If head-to-head mattered, I could state Dwyane Wade is as good as Kobe by posting the Christmas matchup of a few years ago where Wade burned him all game long.

[goldgrill4me]

funny thing is people act like kobe has been tearing apart the league so far in the postseason. fact of the matter is his numbers are just average jordan playoff numbers. he hasnt had one playoff series that is off the charts like jordan used to have.

[allball]

Different everything.

1) Kobe scored 81 because he could...and he wanted to. MJ didn't score just to score, relatively speaking. There were plenty of times he could have done so if he wanted to. Against quality competition, too. Look at the Portland game in the finals where he hit 6 treys in the first half. He barely played in the second half and rested quite a bit in the first half. It's not inconceivable for him to have been able to score 40 points in the first half and another 30 in the second if he was motivated to score. Against a Finals opponent. He definitely could have against the Sacramento Kings in some meaningless game in February.

2) MJ played against better defense.

3) MJ actually played defense. A lot more consistently than Kobe. That takes energy and wears a player down over the course of a game and over the course of a season. How much more effective of a scorer would he have been if he only concentrated on the offense? How would it have changed Kobe's game if he played defense as consistently as MJ did over the course of his career?



I see what you're saying, but head-to-head matchups or one-on-one games don't really determine who the better player is. I don't think Larry Bird could win a one-on-one matchup with anybody. If head-to-head mattered, I could state Dwyane Wade is as good as Kobe by posting the Christmas matchup of a few years ago where Wade burned him all game long.

no doubt Jordan and Kobe are different people and approach the game differently and no doubt Jordan is GREATER than Kobe. all I said was:

A) in a head to head matchup Kobe could give Jordan a good matchup

B) Kobe is one the very best to ever play the game


have never said Kobe is better than Michael. he's not IMO.

I do believe Kobe scored that 81 to win that game. people criticized Jordan's 63 point game. in the barbershop the talk was always "Jordan is a ballhog" "he'll never be as great as Larry and Magic" "great player but will never achieve legend status" "will never win a championship"

I remember those Pistons series wanting to fight people. I also remember in 91 finals (broke up with my girl during game 1) after Bulls went up 2-1, cats in the shop saying LA was going to come back and win 3 straight and giving Jordan no respect like Kobe gets no respect now.

[GOBB]

Does Bird believe Kobe has been the best player for a long time? Why do people in general do that? I guess I'm guilty of it too. But Kobe is having an incredible season, and then you overrate, fabricate things from the past to make your upcoming statement sound good. That is my only guess to WHY Bird said he believes Kobe has been the best player for a long time, based off this season...he just enhanced, boosted Kobe in prior seasons.

One of the reasons fans need to take ex greats opinions with a grain of salt. They flop more than euros. I swear. Is there any ex NBA greats who stand by thier comments and make reasonable statements? That dont sway back and forth just for the moment or feel they have to prop up a player on national TV so it doesnt come across as taking a shot? I mean Bird saying Kobe hasnt been the best player for a long time isnt a diss, but in the sportsmedia it can be taken out of context and percieved that way. I just dont like when ex players do it.

MJ i guess, altho i havent heard a lot of interivews from him is pretty neutral or shall i say he doesnt get into the comparison game. Normally just says he is one of the greats/likes to think he is one of the greats and its hard to compare different eras. Havent heard so much of a solid stance.

[Da_Realist]

no doubt Jordan and Kobe are different people and approach the game differently and no doubt Jordan is GREATER than Kobe. all I said was:

A) in a head to head matchup Kobe could give Jordan a good matchup

B) Kobe is one the very best to ever play the game

No dispute there. A lot of people could give Jordan a good matchup one-on-one. That's a different game. I still think MJ takes it, but that's purely subjective. I've never seen either play one-on-one.



I do believe Kobe scored that 81 to win that game. people criticized Jordan's 63 point game. in the barbershop the talk was always "Jordan is a ballhog" "he'll never be as great as Larry and Magic" "great player but will never achieve legend status" "will never win a championship"

Near the end, after the game was over, Kobe was padding a little bit. But I don't blame him for it. Why not? I would have done the same thing. :D But I do take issue with some of his fans that use that game as proof that Kobe is better because Michael couldn't do it. I know that's not what you were saying (there is a difference between didn't and couldn't) so I wasn't really responding to you as much as to other people that have that point of view.

81 points is a lot of points but some people use that as some sort of standard that MJ couldn't match.


I remember those Pistons series wanting to fight people.

Ahh...the Pistons. I have never been happier during a game than during game 4 of the 1991 ECF. I've never felt so content with the world. The sky was the bluest blue I've ever seen. The air was fresh. The sun was a brilliant yellow and WE FINALLY BEAT THE PISTONS!!!

You guys that did not go through those tough losses every year and get teased in school for being the only Bulls fan (before being a Bulls fan was in vogue) have NO IDEA. You really don't. (I should go home just to re-watch that game)


I also remember in 91 finals (broke up with my girl during game 1) after Bulls went up 2-1, cats in the shop saying LA was going to come back and win 3 straight and giving Jordan no respect like Kobe gets no respect now.

People have extreme views on Kobe. From one end of the spectrum (he was a scrub who was carried to 3 titles) to the other (he's the G.O.A.T). Both views are wrong, imo. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[guy]

People have extreme views on Kobe. From one end of the spectrum (he was a scrub who was carried to 3 titles) to the other (he's the G.O.A.T). Both views are wrong, imo. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Yea exactly. IMO he'll end up as a top 5-7 player of all-time, but I highly doubt he gets to no. 1, but there's always a chance. Not every great player is going to be the greatest, and that in no way is a bad thing or a knock on that player.

[Killer_Instinct]

I believe Kobe to be the better scorer. Nothing anyone says will change my mind on that. The big numbers Kobe has put up throughout his career has been mind numbing. MJ has more scoring titles, yeah. Iverson also has more scoring titles than Kobe, but can you honestly say Iverson is a better scorer than Kobe? He is, to me, what Wilt would be if he were a guard, scoring-wise. But, there's more than scoring in the game. Kobe just isn't better than MJ in those areas IMO.

[Y2Gezee]

I have always been a fan of Kobe, never hated on him that I can think of. But I still think he has a ways to go before he's MJ (though if he has an incredible 3-6 years he can certainly get close). But a championship this year (which isn't a given) still doesn't crack him into my top 10. Kobe's been the most overall skilled player in the league for a while, but this is the only season he's deserved to be MVP.

Shaq (who's in my top 5) and Duncan (who also doesn't crack the top 10 for me, but I think eventually will by the end of his career) have been the best and most effective players for many years (since Jordan with the Bulls). Kobe is badass, and one of the most fun players to watch that I've ever seen, but as THE MAN this is the first year he's been truly great and worthy of mention with Jordan for a season.

[Y2Gezee]

I believe Kobe to be the better scorer. Nothing anyone says will change my mind on that. The big numbers Kobe has put up throughout his career has been mind numbing. MJ has more scoring titles, yeah. Iverson also has more scoring titles than Kobe, but can you honestly say Iverson is a better scorer than Kobe? He is, to me, what Wilt would be if he were a guard, scoring-wise. But, there's more than scoring in the game. Kobe just isn't better than MJ in those areas IMO.

No

[guy]

I believe Kobe to be the better scorer. Nothing anyone says will change my mind on that. The big numbers Kobe has put up throughout his career has been mind numbing. MJ has more scoring titles, yeah. Iverson also has more scoring titles than Kobe, but can you honestly say Iverson is a better scorer than Kobe? He is, to me, what Wilt would be if he were a guard, scoring-wise. But, there's more than scoring in the game. Kobe just isn't better than MJ in those areas IMO.

Ummm, you do realize that Jordan put up some crazy huge scoring numbers as well right? And nobody has came close to putting up the amount of great scoring outbursts Jordan's had in the playoffs, at least since he came into the league. And Jordan was not an Allen Iverson.

[KGTruthRayRay]

No

At least with scoring people can make some sort of case, but there's literally no other area of the game where Kobe is better than Jordan -- rebounding, passing, playmaking, any aspect of defense (individual, team/help, fastbreak, off the all, post), intangibles like leadership etc.

You're saying that he IS better in other areas? I'd love to hear that case made.

[Da_Realist]

I believe Kobe to be the better scorer. Nothing anyone says will change my mind on that. [/B]

Not even facts? :confusedshrug:

[RoseCity07]

Jordan was swept twice by those Celtics teams. at 18/19 Jordan was carried to an NCAA championship, Kobe to an NBA championship in your words.

why would Kobe do what Jordan did when he had a great center? once that great center left he averaged 35PPG. plus he scored 81. something Jordan never did on anybody.

I've been a Jordan fan since I saw him play in the McDonald's All America game but doesn't cloud my vision that Kobe is one of the greatest ever and could play with Jordan on the court.

You act like scoring 81 once means Kobe is the greatest. Do you know he shot 46 shots and shot 20 FTs. He jacked up 13 3pt shots. If Jordan had been that selfish in a game he would have been able to score more than 81.

This is Kobe's first year shooting over 50 percent in the playoffs. Jordan did it for 4 straight years in the playoffs. Kobe's career player of FG shooting is 44.7%, Jordan's is 48.7%. Jordan also averaged 33 PPG in the playoffs. Kobe averages 24 PPG.

Since points seem to mean so much to you you can't ignore the playoff numbers:

Jordan 33 PPG> Kobe 24 PPG

Jordan 48.7 FG%> Kobe 44.7 FG%

Yeah Kobe can play with Jordan, he'll just always get beat. I rooted against Jordan in the finals, so I guess my judgement is clouded.:rolleyes:

[BIGSHOT]

Kobe>Jordan
Bout to get his 4th ring at 29.

[mjbulls23]

Kobe>Jordan
Bout to get his 4th ring at 29.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1666153&postcount=435

[RoseCity07]

I believe Kobe to be the better scorer.


Jordan more than doubled Kobe's PPG total the first year Kobe played in the finals, Jordan did this in just his second year.

Kobe 21.1 PPG in playoffs 4th season < Jordan 43.7 PPG in the playoffs 2nd season.

Kobe played in 20 games, Jordan in 3 in those seasons. Kobe shot 44% from the fields, Jordan shot over 50%. Then Jordan went on to average the most PPG in playoff history. Jordan scored over 30 PPG in the playoffs 12 out of his 13 years in the playoffs. The only time he didn't score over 30 PPG was his rookie year when he scored 29.3 PPG. Kobe has scored over 30 PPG game a measly 3 out of 11 years in the playoffs.

Jordan 12/13> Kobe 3/11

Kobe's 4th best PPG game average in the playoffs barely beats out Jordan's worsts which happened in his rookie season.

[BIGSHOT]

Kobe is the G.O.A.T
32 PPG
6 RPG
6 APG
52% shooting.
In these playoffs.
Led a team with no other All-Stars or All NBA performers to the NBA Finals in only his 4th year as the man.:bowdown:

[XxNeXuSxX]

Kobe is the G.O.A.T
32 PPG
6 RPG
6 APG
52% shooting.
In these playoffs.
Led a team with no other All-Stars or All NBA performers to the NBA Finals in only his 4th year as the man.:bowdown:
The lack of basketball knowledge in this thread absolutely disgusts me.

[RoseCity07]

Kobe is the G.O.A.T
32 PPG
6 RPG
6 APG
52% shooting.
In these playoffs.
Led a team with no other All-Stars or All NBA performers to the NBA Finals in only his 4th year as the man.:bowdown:


Great job lying.

ESPN says Kobe is scoring 28 PPG in the playoffs, 5 assists, 6 rebounds.

If that is wrong and your right then Jordan still beats Kobe. Jordan career averages are better than Kobe's playoff stats this year.

[BIGSHOT]

The lack of basketball knowledge in this thread absolutely disgusts me.
:oldlol:

[BIGSHOT]

Great job lying.

ESPN says Kobe is scoring 28 PPG in the playoffs, 5 assists, 6 rebounds.

If that is wrong and your right then Jordan still beats Kobe. Jordan career averages are better than Kobe's playoff stats this year.
Nope.I'm pretty sure its 32 or 32 PPG.
And Kobe's playoff avgerages as the man are right there with Jordan as the man.:bowdown:

[RoseCity07]

Time to go to bed child, I thought trolls got sleepy after being fed.

[BIGSHOT]

Time to go to bed child, I thought trolls got sleepy after being fed.
Nice comeback.
You're the same clown who said Spurs would beat the Lakers.:oldlol:

[juju151111]

Kobe is the G.O.A.T
32 PPG
6 RPG
6 APG
52% shooting.
In these playoffs.
Led a team with no other All-Stars or All NBA performers to the NBA Finals in only his 4th year as the man.:bowdown:
Huh??Pau gasol averged 20 and 10.just because u don't make the all-star team doesn't mean r not a all-star caliber player.It could mean they are just better players.Going by ur logic Mj won the 91,98 playoffs by himself because pip didn't make the all star team that year.Yep Mj destroyed the lakers and jazz all by his lonesome because he had no other all stars.

[allball]

You act like scoring 81 once means Kobe is the greatest. Do you know he shot 46 shots and shot 20 FTs. He jacked up 13 3pt shots. If Jordan had been that selfish in a game he would have been able to score more than 81.

This is Kobe's first year shooting over 50 percent in the playoffs. Jordan did it for 4 straight years in the playoffs. Kobe's career player of FG shooting is 44.7%, Jordan's is 48.7%. Jordan also averaged 33 PPG in the playoffs. Kobe averages 24 PPG.

Since points seem to mean so much to you you can't ignore the playoff numbers:

Jordan 33 PPG> Kobe 24 PPG

Jordan 48.7 FG%> Kobe 44.7 FG%

Yeah Kobe can play with Jordan, he'll just always get beat. I rooted against Jordan in the finals, so I guess my judgement is clouded.:rolleyes:

the point i was making to the other poster was that he said Jordan put up big numbers as the primary offensive focus as if Kobe didn't.

In the 63 point game against Boston Jordan took 41 shots and made 19 FTs.

Jordan had a 69 point game where he took 37 shots and made 21 free throws.

if Jordan had closed in on 80 he probably would have went for it.

no matter how many shots taken it's up to the defense to stop you and if they can't, keep shooting.

81 on 46 (+35) is good with me. just like 63 on 41 (+22) is good with me.

i'm not sure what the rest is about. never said Kobe would beat Jordan in a playoff series. never said he had a better career.

[Younggrease]

Huh??Pau gasol averged 20 and 10.just because u don't make the all-star team doesn't mean r not a all-star caliber player.It could mean they are just better players.Going by ur logic Mj won the 91,98 playoffs by himself because pip didn't make the all star team that year.Yep Mj destroyed the lakers and jazz all by his lonesome because he had no other all stars.

yes it does...being an all star player is relative to your peers. Pau simplay doesnt stack up to his peers well enough to garner all star status.

The guy isnt an all star, he is too soft and mentally weak. Dude makes Dirk look like he got Reggie Millers heart.

Pau has NEVER averaged 20/10. He has only averaged 20 points for 2 seasons and has NEVER averaged 10 rebounds a game. HE is a step below an all star because he just backs down from top post players(Although he should do well against KG)

[juju151111]

yes it does...being an all star player is relative to your peers. Pau simplay doesnt stack up to his peers well enough to garner all star status.

The guy isnt an all star, he is too soft and mentally weak. Dude makes Dirk look like he got Reggie Millers heart.
huh watever he still a 19-20ppg,9-10 rebs guy who led his team to 50 wins before.Okur and kirk made it to all-star games before.LMAO pau>>>okur.

[Younggrease]

huh watever he still a 19-20ppg,9-10 rebs guy who led his team to 50 wins before.Okur and kirk made it to all-star games before.LMAO pau>>>okur.

Pau averaged 9 rebounds a game 1 out of his 9 years in the league. and that was one year he made the all star team. That was like 4 years ago.

Also in Memphis one year they had 50 wins he missed half the season and they had a better record without him. His team begged him to shoot and to stop up and take responsibility and he folded time and time again. Very similarly to his career in Spain. I have put up with Pau because he is a Laker but he is one of the mentally weakest players in the league.

[juju151111]

Pau averaged 9 rebounds a game 1 out of his 9 years in the league. and that was one year he made the all star team. That was like 4 years ago.

Also in Memphis one year they had 50 wins he missed half the season and they had a better record without him. His team begged him to shoot and to stop up and take responsibility and he folded time and time again. Very similarly to his career in Spain. I have put up with Pau because he is a Laker but he is one of the mentally weakest players in the league.
He was averging 8.9 and 8.8 which is basically 9.His best rebounding year was 9.8.Like i said He can get u 19-20ppg with 9-10 rebs.Also like i said Pau>>> mehmet okur.

[hotsizzle]

Great job lying.

ESPN says Kobe is scoring 28 PPG in the playoffs, 5 assists, 6 rebounds.

If that is wrong and your right then Jordan still beats Kobe. Jordan career averages are better than Kobe's playoff stats this year.

28/6/5 were Kobe's numbers in the regular season.

Kobe's numbers in the playoffs: 31.9 PPG 6.1 REBS 5.8 ASTS on 50.9 FG%
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG,SG,G,GF,SF,PF,F,FC,C&conference=NBA&year=postseason_2007

[gabeh1018]

Very good article. Those are my thoughts exactly. There was a fierceness with MJ that I hadn't seen (to the same degree) with anyone else. Players, coaches, teams feared him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKOkNZ4Yzto).

You just had to watch to 'get it'. Trying to define MJ by the number of championships, his scoring average or his other accomplishments is like trying to define Mozart by musical scales. Some things you can't define. Greatness is one of them.


that is a damn fine analogy :applause:

[KenneBell]

Over his whole body of work, Kobe's not on Jordan's level.

But right now, he is playing on Jordan's level statistically and in impact on the games they play in.

If he can keep his play up though the Finals to the championship I don't see why it's out of the question to say 29yo Kobe is as good as 29yo Jordan. I don't see anything out of the ordinary that jumps as putting Jordan over Kobe at the same age. I guess you could go with intangibles...just my opinion though.

[Killer_Instinct]

Ummm, you do realize that Jordan put up some crazy huge scoring numbers as well right? And nobody has came close to putting up the amount of great scoring outbursts Jordan's had in the playoffs, at least since he came into the league. And Jordan was not an Allen Iverson.


You're so right. No one has put up the insane numbers MJ had in the Playoffs. But i'm not talking strictly Playoffs. There's no argument there. MJs stats in the Playoffs speak for themeselves. But if we are looking at the HIGHEST points put up, Kobe is a better scorer. Two games, off the top of my head, MJ had 63 against the Celtics(was that an overtime?), and 69 against the Cavs.

Kobe recorded 62 in 3 quarters. In doing that, he accomplished something NO ONE in the history of the NBA had done, and outscored an entire NBA team by himself. The WCF Champs that year, to be exact. We all know the 81 Point game. 81>69. Sorry. :confusedshrug: Kobe also has toppled MJs 50 point game streak, surpassing him with 4. He has gotten as close to 100 as we'll see for a while. Factor in his 56 point game in 3 Quarters, his 52 point game in 3 against Utah, his 40 point streaks, and there is nothing wrong with Kobe being seen as a top 3 scorer in NBA History.

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Michael Jordan

As I said before though, putting up huge number is the only think Kobe does better than MJ to me. MJ couldn't be stopped.


*What was that game were he hit an insane 21-28 FG?*

But Kobe is just as bit unstoppable on the Offensive end as MJ. Period. I just feel that when Kobe gets hot, he does more damage than any other player. If you want to get technical, yes, MJ was a much more efficent scorer than Kobe. He rarley had a 7-26 game as Kobe does numerous times throughout a season. But he also never accomplished the scoring feats Kobe has. MJ is still the surperior player, though. But Kobe is, and will remain to me the best scorer behind Wilt in NBA history.

*And I'm not comparing MJ to Iverson. Where'd you get that from? I was using AI as an example to show just because one has more scoring titles than another, dosen't make them better than the other. Circumstances can arise. It's a fact. Just because AI has more scoring titles than Kobe dosen't mean he is a better scorer than Kobe. Clear now? No where was I insuating AI was MJs equal.*

[dafunkphenom]

It's hard to compare Jordan and Kobe's offensive game. The guy above says Kobe's offensive game is equal to Jordan's but I would like to see if Kobe coulde put up those numbers on a consistent basis back in the 90's when defense wasn't called the way it is today. I've heard many experts and analyst's that say Jordan would have averaged 40 - 45 ppg in some seasons if he was playing under today's rules. But nobody will ever know the true answer.

[Killer_Instinct]

It's hard to compare Jordan and Kobe's offensive game. The guy above says Kobe's offensive game is equal to Jordan's but I would like to see if Kobe coulde put up those numbers on a consistent basis back in the 90's when defense wasn't called the way it is today. I've heard many experts and analyst's that say Jordan would have averaged 40 - 45 ppg in some seasons if he was playing under today's rules. But nobody will ever know the true answer.


We'll never know. But what we do know is that Kobe has done some things on the Offensive end MJ never did. That's fact. You can stipulate and ponder all you want about getting a time machine and throwing Kobe into the past, and bringing Jordan to the future, but it won't happen.

[Bless Mathews]

I was watching NBA FANTASTICS narrated by Dan Patrick....

Bob Cousy was pretty FUNKY.. for an old white dude..

Magic, best passer ever...

Isiah, quick as snot...

MJ..THE BEST !! This was a show from the 80's..you know , before jordan got supersmart, before his turn around and his 3.. When he'd take it to the hoop passing 3,4,5 opposing players li

ke a hot needle through some ky jelly....

absolutely uncanny.... kobe cant hold his grid knee brace...

google it know nots.

[Rocker09]

There's a reason why Jordan is considered as the best to ever play the game. His accomplishments are almost impossible to reach. IMO, There's a very small chance for Kobe to reach Jordan's stature. This is the reason why my stand have always been to let Kobe just be Kobe. Let him be great for who he is. He's having the best playoff performance of his career, let's just appreciate that.

[RoseCity07]

I think it's still too early to say what Kobe's final place on the all time greatest players list is going to be. He is just starting to really get some where with a great team. When it's all said and done I can definitely seeing him being the seconds greatest player of all time behind Jordan.

What I know for sure is that we are all seeing a NBA legend right now playing his best basketball. It's hard not to bring up questions about who he is better than. Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan though. 6 Championships, all the awards, amazing plays. Michael Jordan's talent mixed with his amazing quickness, body control, basketball IQ, awareness, etc is what I think really separate him from Kobe.

Just enjoy watching Kobe right now.

[gts]

I think it's still too early to say what Kobe's final place on the all time greatest players list is going to be. He is just starting to really get some where with a great team. When it's all said and done I can definitely seeing him being the seconds greatest player of all time behind Jordan.

What I know for sure is that we are all seeing a NBA legend right now playing his best basketball. It's hard not to bring up questions about who he is better than. Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan though. 6 Championships, all the awards, amazing plays. Michael Jordan's talent mixed with his amazing quickness, body control, basketball IQ, awareness, etc is what I think really separate him from Kobe.

Just enjoy watching Kobe right now.wow nice post bro...well said might not agree 100% but salute

[KGTruthRayRay]

Over his whole body of work, Kobe's not on Jordan's level.

But right now, he is playing on Jordan's level statistically and in impact on the games they play in.

Except for, you know, the whole "defense" thing. Kobe has been invisible on defense in every way this postseason. And he still isn't Jordan's equal on offense, as well as he's played.


If he can keep his play up though the Finals to the championship I don't see why it's out of the question to say 29yo Kobe is as good as 29yo Jordan.

Of course you don't. You're a Kobe fan. Because one great playoffs is equal to the 8 all-time level seasons and playoffs Jordan had by the same age. :oldlol: We won't even talk about stuff like averaging 13.4 FTA/gm through the first two rounds and then facing exclusively single coverage in the third round, all of which helps his numbers immensely. As does conserving all of his energy for the offensive end.

[Da_Realist]

Over his whole body of work, Kobe's not on Jordan's level.

But right now, he is playing on Jordan's level statistically and in impact on the games they play in.

If he can keep his play up though the Finals to the championship I don't see why it's out of the question to say 29yo Kobe is as good as 29yo Jordan. I don't see anything out of the ordinary that jumps as putting Jordan over Kobe at the same age. I guess you could go with intangibles...just my opinion though.

No offense, but it's obvious you didn't watch MJ when he was 29. I'm not gonna bash Kobe here to make a point because he's playing well, but he has never looked like the 29 year old MJ.

[Da_Realist]

It's a little disconcerting to see all these young guys try to define MJ by his numbers, as if the numbers define who he was as a player. That is such a cop out. Numbers don't measure everything, but the minute Kobe averages 30 points on 50%, he has the same impact as MJ did. Those who've watched both disagree. It's because of the intangibles.

MJ was a supreme athlete and talent who played with the intensity of a scrub trying to make the cut. Even as the premier superstar in the league. He played tremendous defense, rebounded, blocked shots, averaged a high number of steals for a guard and dove on the floor for loose balls. All this takes energy. If MJ was only concerned with saving his energy for scoring he would have destroyed the record books. He was the ultimate utility guy (willing to do anything to get a win, despite being the star).

Look at when MJ was 29 years old. Not only did he play exceptionally well in the Finals, but he defended a Hall of Fame guard (Drexler) while doing it. He was constantly being double teamed because he was the focus of the offense and he didn't have an efficient or dominant big man to take the pressure off.

Ironically, it's because MJ wasn't concerned with his individual numbers that some of you guys think there is a possibility for Kobe to reach that level. If he took the short cuts that Kobe takes throughout his career MJ would have burned the record books for scoring.

Of course, he wouldn't have been regarded as the GOAT if he took that route.

[Da_Realist]

Over his whole body of work, Kobe's not on Jordan's level.

But right now, he is playing on Jordan's level statistically and in impact on the games they play in.

If he can keep his play up though the Finals to the championship I don't see why it's out of the question to say 29yo Kobe is as good as 29yo Jordan. I don't see anything out of the ordinary that jumps as putting Jordan over Kobe at the same age. I guess you could go with intangibles...just my opinion though.

I hate to feel like I'm always downing Kobe because he's a phenomenal player. It's just that statements like ^^ force me to find a way to differentiate between the two players. Because Kobe is not on MJ's level, I have to keep saying negative things about him.

Kobe isn't the only fantastic superstar player that had shortcomings. Neither Charles Barkley or Drexler played much defense. Patrick Ewing had hands of stone and couldn't pass to save his life. Shaq and Tim Duncan can't hit free throws. Penny Hardaway didn't have much heart. Karl Malone choked in big moments and Isiah Thomas sometimes resorted to streetball when he felt threatened.

The only difference with those players is...well, first of all, they're different so it's easier to make a case for them because it's like comparing apples to oranges. Secondly, there isn't a whole multitude of fans blood-thirsty to justify their era by having it defined by "the greatest player ever". So everyday there is comparison upon comparison upon comparison. They love it when it looks favorable, but the minute someone says, rightfully, that he's still not MJ he's called a "hater".

So Kobe and his fans are still chasing this dream without realizing that Kobe can never be considered the best if you keep comparing him to someone else. That by definition makes the other person (MJ, in this case) the standard.

When MJ came into the league, he was compared to DR J because of his athleticism and showmanship. Later on, he was compared to Dominique because of his dunks. Now he's compared to no one. Why? Because by most accounts, he is now the standard.

Kobe will never truly arrive until Kobe is no longer compared to MJ or anyone else. When you are the standard, you are no longer compared to anyone -- everyone else is now compared to you. So as long as these young Kobe fans come on this board to find a way to compare him to MJ, they're unknowingly conceding that Kobe isn't there yet.

Even Kobe gets it, which is why he wants the comparisons to stop.

[guy]

You're so right. No one has put up the insane numbers MJ had in the Playoffs. But i'm not talking strictly Playoffs. There's no argument there. MJs stats in the Playoffs speak for themeselves. But if we are looking at the HIGHEST points put up, Kobe is a better scorer. Two games, off the top of my head, MJ had 63 against the Celtics(was that an overtime?), and 69 against the Cavs.

Kobe recorded 62 in 3 quarters. In doing that, he accomplished something NO ONE in the history of the NBA had done, and outscored an entire NBA team by himself. The WCF Champs that year, to be exact. We all know the 81 Point game. 81>69. Sorry. :confusedshrug: Kobe also has toppled MJs 50 point game streak, surpassing him with 4. He has gotten as close to 100 as we'll see for a while.

Ok well Jordan had a 3 game 50 point streak, so your basically saying Kobe was the better scorer based off of 3 games, instead of evaluating what these players did on a consistent basis?




Factor in his 56 point game in 3 Quarters, his 52 point game in 3 against Utah, his 40 point streaks, and there is nothing wrong with Kobe being seen as a top 3 scorer in NBA History.

I can name a bunch of great games by Jordan too. The main reason I put Jordan ahead of Kobe in scoring is that he was way more efficient and he did it when it counted the most. Kobe has not come close to matching Jordan's collection of scoring outbursts in the playoffs that include 63 against the Celtics, back-to-back 50 and 55 point games against the Cavs, 56 against the Heat, 35 first-half points against the Blazers in the Finals, 54 against the Knicks, 55 against the Suns in the Finals, 55 against the Bullets, 38 against the Jazz with the flu, 45 against the Jazz, and thats just some of the games.



But Kobe is just as bit unstoppable on the Offensive end as MJ. Period. I just feel that when Kobe gets hot, he does more damage than any other player. If you want to get technical, yes, MJ was a much more efficent scorer than Kobe. He rarley had a 7-26 game as Kobe does numerous times throughout a season. But he also never accomplished the scoring feats Kobe has. MJ is still the surperior player, though. But Kobe is, and will remain to me the best scorer behind Wilt in NBA history.

Jordan's a much more efficient scorer even with less FTA, more physical defenses, and required the majority of the attention from the defenses, something Kobe hasn't had to go through for most of his career. That should be enough.




*And I'm not comparing MJ to Iverson. Where'd you get that from? I was using AI as an example to show just because one has more scoring titles than another, dosen't make them better than the other. Circumstances can arise. It's a fact. Just because AI has more scoring titles than Kobe dosen't mean he is a better scorer than Kobe. Clear now? No where was I insuating AI was MJs equal.*

You said Kobe's scoring numbers are mind-numbing in comparison to MJs, as if MJ didn't have mind-numbing numbers himself, and then say just cause Jordan has more scoring titles doesn't mean anything, since AI has more scoring titles as well. I'll agree that scoring titles don't mean everything, but to me that sounded like you were saying MJ was on AI's level of scoring.

[Da_Realist]

We all know the 81 Point game. 81>69.


Michael's Game
69 pts, 6 asts, 18 rbs, 4 stls, 62% on the road against a playoff team (Cleveland Cavaliers) that finished 42-40.

Kobe's Game
81 pts, 2 asts, 6 rbs, 3 stls, 61% at home against a lottery team (Toronto Raptors) that finished 27-55.

How much energy did it take to secure those rebounds against a team featuring Larry Nance and Hot Rod Williams? How much harder was it to score on the road against a playoff team that was bounced out of the playoffs by the Bulls the previous 2 years (most dramatically by The Shot the year before)?

You can't just go by the numbers.

[Killer_Instinct]

Ok well Jordan had a 3 game 50 point streak, so your basically saying Kobe was the better scorer based off of 3 games, instead of evaluating what these players did on a consistent basis?



I can name a bunch of great games by Jordan too. The main reason I put Jordan ahead of Kobe in scoring is that he was way more efficient and he did it when it counted the most. Kobe has not come close to matching Jordan's collection of scoring outbursts in the playoffs that include 63 against the Celtics, back-to-back 50 and 55 point games against the Cavs, 56 against the Heat, 35 first-half points against the Blazers in the Finals, 54 against the Knicks, 55 against the Suns in the Finals, 55 against the Bullets, 38 against the Jazz with the flu, 45 against the Jazz, and thats just some of the games.



Jordan's a much more efficient scorer even with less FTA, more physical defenses, and required the majority of the attention from the defenses, something Kobe hasn't had to go through for most of his career. That should be enough.



You said Kobe's scoring numbers are mind-numbing in comparison to MJs, as if MJ didn't have mind-numbing numbers himself, and then say just cause Jordan has more scoring titles doesn't mean anything, since AI has more scoring titles as well. I'll agree that scoring titles don't mean everything, but to me that sounded like you were saying MJ was on AI's level of scoring.


All I'm telling you is that Kobe shattered MJs 50 point game streak. That's all. 4>3. No matter how you look at it. I already told you, yes, MJ was a more consistent scorer. Like I said, he rarley had 7-26 games. Kobe has those a lot more than MJ did. I am aware of the great scoring games MJ has had. But I name numerous games that Kobe produced similar results. Kobe's high scoring games are pretty consistant, also. His 81 Point Game he shot 66%. He is also consistant, not on par with MJ in that area, but when he gets hot he is just as consistant as MJ, if not more.


No where was I saying that MJ was on AI's level. I still don't think you understood me. AI has more scoring titles than about anyone in the NBA now. But he still isn't a better scorer than Kobe, just because he has more than Kobe. That was my only point. No one in their right minds thinks MJ and AI are on the same page.

[Killer_Instinct]

Michael's Game
69 pts, 6 asts, 18 rbs, 4 stls, 62% on the road against a playoff team (Cleveland Cavaliers) that finished 42-40.

Kobe's Game
81 pts, 2 asts, 6 rbs, 3 stls, 61% at home against a lottery team (Toronto Raptors) that finished 27-55.

How much energy did it take to secure those rebounds against a team featuring Larry Nance and Hot Rod Williams? How much harder was it to score on the road against a playoff team that was bounced out of the playoffs by the Bulls the previous 2 years (most dramatically by The Shot the year before)?

You can't just go by the numbers.


You just furthered proved why MJ is the better player. That is obvious. Kobe hasn't put up those all around stats in a 60 point game. But I'm strictly speaking scoring here. Kobe recorded 62 points in 32 minutes. It took MJ a full game. If I wanted the complete performance, I'd be a dumbass not to take MJs performance. But the way Kobe got his points with that much quickness to outscore a complete team by himself was incredible. And no matter how you look at, 81 is a bigger number than 69.

MJs overall game was better because he is a player Kobe has not and will not ever be. But 81 is more than 69. That is the only thing I'm speaking of. I know MJ has better stats. That's not the debate. But Kobe, IMO, racks up points like no other. It's what makes him Kobe.

[guy]

All I'm telling you is that Kobe shattered MJs 50 point game streak. That's all. 4>3. No matter how you look at it. I already told you, yes, MJ was a more consistent scorer. Like I said, he rarley had 7-26 games. Kobe has those a lot more than MJ did. I am aware of the great scoring games MJ has had. But I name numerous games that Kobe produced similar results. Kobe's high scoring games are pretty consistant, also. His 81 Point Game he shot 66%. He is also consistant, not on par with MJ in that area, but when he gets hot he is just as consistant as MJ, if not more.


No where was I saying that MJ was on AI's level. I still don't think you understood me. AI has more scoring titles than about anyone in the NBA now. But he still isn't a better scorer than Kobe, just because he has more than Kobe. That was my only point. No one in their right minds thinks MJ and AI are on the same page.

4>3 is not shattering. Its more obviously, but I wouldn't call that shattered. And sure Kobe is great when he gets hot and maybe as consistent as Jordan when he did, but he didn't get hot as often as Jordan nor did he do it as much in important games. Both players have had numerous great scoring games, the difference is Jordan did it wayy more then Kobe in the playoffs and thats a big reason I would say Jordan is a better scorer. If it was game 7, and someone needed to score 50+ on high FG%, I would bet on Jordan doing it before Kobe.

Its not just about that stuff though, overall he's a more skilled scorer. Jordan's midrange game is better, he's a better penetrator and a better post-up scorer. Kobe's a better three-point shooter, and there about even on FTs. I'll take a better midrange game over better three-point shooting every single time.

I get what your saying about the AI-Jordan thing.

[Da_Realist]

You just furthered proved why MJ is the better player. That is obvious. Kobe hasn't put up those all around stats in a 60 point game. But I'm strictly speaking scoring here. Kobe recorded 62 points in 32 minutes. It took MJ a full game. If I wanted the complete performance, I'd be a dumbass not to take MJs performance. But the way Kobe got his points with that much quickness to outscore a complete team by himself was incredible. And no matter how you look at, 81 is a bigger number than 69.

MJs overall game was better because he is a player Kobe has not and will not ever be. But 81 is more than 69. That is the only thing I'm speaking of. I know MJ has better stats. That's not the debate. But Kobe, IMO, racks up points like no other. It's what makes him Kobe.

Kobe has had 3 seasons where he scored 30+ ppg. None of those seasons did he shoot 50%.

MJ has had 8 seasons scoring 30+ ppg, 7 of which he shot 50% or better. He also had another season average of 29.6.

30 point seasons

Kobe
05/06 35.4 pts, 45%
06/07 31.6 pts, 46%
02/03 30.0 pts, 45%

MJ
91/92 30.1 pts, 52%
95/96 30.4 pts, 50%
90/91 31.5 pts, 52%
88/89 32.5 pts, 54%
92/93 32.6 pts, 50%
89/90 33.6 pts, 53%
87/88 35.0 pts, 54%
86/87 37.1 pts, 48%

Looking at only scoring, Kobe doesn't measure up. I didn't even bring up the physical defenses MJ had to face. MJ scored 30 from the ages of 23 - 33. That's a 10 year span (not counting the 97 year where he scored 29.6 ppg). It also doesn't take into account that MJ retired for almost 2 years during the middle of it. Do you think Kobe could put up 30 pts for a whole season in 4 years when he is 33? I think not.

So, again...MJ scored more and he scored more efficiently while being the focal point of his team's offense for 13 years (double and triple teams). During this span, he played better defense, blocked more shots, stole more passes, and averaged more assists per game.

Years from now, when MJ and Kobe are in heaven discussing their earthly accomplishments the discussion will center on who was the better scorer. Which do you think Kobe himself would rather have? That one page document describing his 81 point game or that thick legal binder that MJ is gonna leaf through to state his case?

[Manute for Ever!]

Years from now, when MJ and Kobe are in heaven discussing their earthly accomplishments the discussion will center on who was the better scorer. Which do you think Kobe himself would rather have? That one page document describing his 81 point game or that thick legal binder that MJ is gonna leaf through to state his case?

Very well said :applause: