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Pretty easily Kareem. Hakeem was the better defender, but pretty much anything else I can think of Kareem was better at, and on top of that he had the second greatest longevity of anyone.
Seems kind of simple, but what else really needs to be said? This is sort of obvious to me. Even if you want to argue that Hakeem was better at his best, it's not by much, and Kareem still had an advantage in longevity by a massive amount.
[QUOTE=necya]:oldlol: he posted this like 10 times in the last 3 months...and i had to answer the same thing you did...but he just can't hear the truth.
i could have quoted Fatal's post as he was right, you are so biased jlauber.
the only way you use to judge players is by stats, a good one to propulse your Wilt.
ah yeah this so important to have rebounding titles, i have waiting Hakeem got one to say "wow he is a great rebounder". you look stupid talking about bball like that.
damn, you put too much emphasis on records put in a sport who had only 10 years of age in his professionnal history.
Pele in soccer has scored more than 100 goals in a season, todays players would need 4 seasons to do that...[/QUOTE]
First of all, basketball TODAY, is essentially the same game that was played in 1960. Yes, the lane is wider, but it had ZERO effect on Chamberlain. The year the NBA widened the lane to what it is TODAY, an ILL Wilt was averaging nearly 40 ppg at mid-season, and before his trade to Philly. And the very next year after that he led the NBA in scoring at 33.5 ppg AND set a then-record FG% mark of .540 (which HE would break two more times.) BTW, Wilt had EIGHT 60+ point games after the widening of the lane, which is THREE more than either MJ or Kobe had in their entire careers. And it was only because of his coaches and personnel that he did not have more.
And to say that the GAME was only TEN years old just how ignorant a poster you are. The NBA was formed in 1946, and Wilt was DOMINATING the NBA and setting records even into his LAST season, in 1972-73, which, in itself was over TWENTY-FIVE years later. But, PROFESSIONAL basketball had been around since the early 1920's. And COLLEGES were playing basketball as far back as the 1890's. Here again, the game was played on the same size courts, with the same size rims, with roughly the same size ball, for DECADES.
Of course the "anti-Wilt" posters like yourself and Fatal will come up with ANY kind of garbage in a desperate attempt to disparage what Chamberlain accomplished. You laugh at Wilt's rebounding records. Why? Because Hakeem could only win TWO titles in 18 seasons, and Kareem was even worse with ONE in 20 years. Those two were routinely outrebounded by much smaller players. Hell, Hakeem's TEAMMATE, the 6-6 Charles Barkley outrebounded him by FOUR rpg in the '97 season. As for Kareem, he was badlu outrebounded by a GUARD on his OWN team, in SEVERAL seasons, and post-seasons.
In Wilt's LAST NBA season, he LED the NBA (for the ELEVENTH time), in a league that Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Kareem, Hayes, Unseld, Silas, and others. Some of those guys would go on to lead the league AFTER Wilt, too. BUT, NEVER WITH Wilt. And his 18.6 rpg, which was his second WORST mark of his career, would be the highest mark for some 20 years, until Rodman's 18.7 rpg. BUT, Wilt also averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 post-season games that year...in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg. Keep in mind this was a Wilt who was in the twi-light of his career, and playing on a surgically repaired knee. A 36 year old Wilt who was nowhere near a PEAK Chamberlain.
And for those that just can't accept Wilt's scoring marks...the highest scoring season in the Wilt-era, by a player other than Wilt, was Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg season in 66-67 (on .451 shooting.) And even Barry "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him have the scoring title that season. EVERYONE in the NBA at the time KNEW that Wilt could score 40+ ANYTIME he set his mind on it. And he proved it by having the HIGH game that season, of 58 points (on 26-34 shooting.) In fact, Wilt had the HIGH game every year after that into the 68-69 season, despite hardly shooting the ball during the course of the season.
I have mentioned this story many times, but in the 68-69 season, Wilt's COACH had basically told Chamberlain to sacrifice HIS scoring so that Baylor could keep shooting. Well, it got so bad that SI was set to run a story claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Wilt got wind of the story, and the night before it hit the newsstands, he hung a 60 point game on 6-10 Connie Dierking. And he followed that up a few days later with a 66 point game against 6-11 Jim Fox. BTW, that 66 point game came on 29-35 shooting, which is by far the highest FG% in a 60+ point game. I mentioned those two players for a reason, and I will get back to them later. Wilt went on a rampage for seventeen straight games that year, averaging 32 ppg in those game. He even hung a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest game against Russell since his 46 point game on him in the last game of the '66 ECF's.
And the very next season (69-70), Wilt's new COACH, Joe Mullaney, asked Chamberlin to become more involved in the offense. In his first nine games he was averaging 32.2 ppg, and even crushed rookie Kareem in one of them. Here was Chamberlain, in his ELEVENTH season, PROVING that he could STILL lead the NBA in scoring. However, he shredded his knee in that ninth game ( a game in which he had just scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting BTW), and virtually ALL medical opinion said that his season was done (Baylor had the same injury a few years before, and he was out the entire season afterwards.) There was even doubt in the medical community that a 7-1 300 lb man would ever play again. Well, Wilt DID comeback...WAY ahead of schedule, and to surprise of the entire medical community. He was never quite the same, but still, he put up a the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history that same season (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625), including a 45-27 game (on 20-27 shooting.) He would also battle a prime Kareem to a statistical draw the very next season, holding a Kareem, who had averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting during the season, to 25 ppg on .481 shooting (while scoring 22 ppg on .489 himself, and outrebounding Kareem, per game, 19-17.)
To be continued...
Continuing...
Now, we have a couple of "bridges" here (actually there were many), but for the sake of this topic, we only need two. One was Rick Barry, who averaged 35.6 ppg on .451 shooting in 66-67. In the 75-76 season (and a few seasons after Wilt had retired), Barry finished with a 30.6 ppg average on .464 shooting. BTW, it was slightly better than Kareem's 30.0 ppg season...which would be Kareem's last 30 ppg season. So, obviously, the game had not changed AT ALL, from 67 to 75 (although overall FGAs were down a little.) In any case, and as we know, Kareem was still hanging 40+ point games on HAKEEM in the mid-80's. And ONE MORE TIME...it was HAKEEM who was guarding Kareem in TWO of Abdul-Jabbar's 40 point games (one in '85 and the other in '86.) A 37 and 38 year old Kareem just abusing a 23 year old Hakeem. And when Kareem was 23 he was leading the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg (on .577 shooting), and winning the regular season AND Finals MVPs.
Kareem is obviously the best example of a "bridge." He played for nearly FOUR decades (one year short of the 89-90 season.) And he played FOUR seasons in the Wilt-era. For those that somehow believe Kareem to be a greater player than Wilt, how can they explain these numbers? I mentioned Wilt's 60 and 66 point games against Dierking and Fox. Well, Kareem faced those two many times, himself, including the very next season after Wilt had just annihilated those guys. Where are HIS 60+ point games against them. Kareem also faced HOFers Reed and Bellamy. Chamberlain had THREE 50+ point games against Reed with a high of 58, and he had THREE 60+ point games against Bellamy, with a high of 73 (!). Kareem faced those two guys near the ends of their careers, and where are his 58 and 73 point games against them...even when they were washed up? Kareem also faced HOFer Nate Thurmond 61 times. His HIGH game against Thurmond was only 36 points. A PRIME Wilt had a 45 point game against Nate (outscoring him 45-13), as well as several 30+ point games. Unfortunately, the "scoring" Wilt only faced Nate a handful of times. Still, even in a season in which he dramatically cut back his shooting (66-67) there was an early season game against Nate, in which Wilt's coach asked Chamberlain at the half, to take it to Nate in the second half. Chamberlain crushed Thurmond in that second half with 24 points, en route to a 30 point, 26 rebound, 12 block game. Of course everyone here by now knows that Wilt had 24 games of 40+ against Russell, including FIVE of 50+ and with a HIGH of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) CLEARLY, a PRIME Wilt could hang 40+ on ANYONE.
Here is another one...once again, Kareem played four years in the Wilt-era. Just taking ONE season together, in 71-72, Wilt had TWO 30-30 games (one of them was a 31-32 game against 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier BTW)...in a year in which he hardly shot the ball. Why is that important? Because Kareem only had ONE 30-30 game in his ENTIRE 20 year career, and it came AFTER Wilt retired. Of course, not only did Wilt have 103 30-30 games in his NBA career (which is 75 more than all of the rest of the NBA...COMBINED)...he also had 55 40-30 games (and of course, Kareem NEVER even close to achieving that even ONCE.) AND, Wilt had 17 40-30 games just against Russell alone, including a 44-43 game.
Chamberlain also shot WAY over the LEAGUE AVERAGE his ENTIRE career. In his 50 ppg season, he was 80 points above the league average. In his 45 ppg season, he was 87 points above the league average. In his 33.5 season, he was 107 points above the league average. But, when he became his most efficient, he had TWO seasons of outshooting the league average by margins of .244 and .271...which are just LIGHT YEARS ahead of ANY other player in NBA history. He also finished .157 and .162 ahead of his nearest competitor in those two years...which again, is on the other side of the galaxy in comparison to any other leader in that category.
Blocked shots? Wilt had a game in the 68-69 season in which he blocked 23 shots. Give me a game in which Kareem had that many? In fact, Wilt had a game against KAREEM's Bucks in the '72 playoffs in which he blocked 11 shots (FIVE of them on Kareem BTW.) This from a 35 year old, 300 lb man playing on a surgically repaired knee. My god, Wilt was universally acknowledged as the best shot-blocker in the NBA in the years in which he played with Kareem...and this was a Wilt far removed from his prime (when he was putting up SEASONS of 10+ bpg.)
But, here again, Kareem PLAYED in the Wilt-era, and against MANY of the centers that Wilt faced for the entire decade of the 60's. Yet he was nowhere NEAR as dominant as a PRIME Wilt was. BUT, an aged Kareem, in the mid-to-late 80's could hang 40 + on players like Hakeem and Ewing (who he just murdered in that game...holding Ewing to nine points on 3-17 shooting.) Kareem DOMINATED Hakeem in the mid-80's...a Hakeem that would be considered the best center of the 90's, and who held his own against s Shaq that would dominate the 00's. And one more time...a way-over-the-hill Kareem hung a 46 point game on Hakeem (on 70% shooting in only 37 minutes), while a PRIME Shaq in the '99 playoffs against a washed-up Hakeem had his highest career game against Olajuwon of 37 points.
So, forget the numbers (as staggering as they), and just take a look at how much more DOMINANT Wilt was to his peers than ANY other player in NBA history. It is truly laughable that ANYONE would suggest that Hakeem would be anywhere near the player a PRIME Chamberlain was.
But IF you take a close look at the RECORD BOOK, there is page-after-page with WILT's NAME plastered all over it. And in many cases Wilt holds the NEXT mark as well. And the fact is, the majority of Chamberlain's records will never be approached, much less broken. And there were RULES put in place STRICTLY aimed at Wilt. How many RULES were put in place to curtail the "dominance" of Hakeem?
Wilt was a FAR greater player than Hakeem. There is simply no criteria that exists that disproves that fact.
^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true
Anyone who claim Hakeem was greater than Kareem, has no clue about the history of the game. How long was Olajuwon considered the best player in the world? One season? Maybe two? Kareem was the best player in the NBA during the whole 70's and was still amazing as an old man in the 80's. He had a better peak, prime and longevity (Hakeem stopped being a real dominant player at 34. A 39 year old Kareem was better offensively than a 34 year old Hakeem).
When Olajuwon was 27,28, and 29 years old,when players are near (or in) their prime, he could not even make it to the ALL NBA first team. That did not happen with the 4 best centers ever: Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq.
This is pure revisionism. No one was saying Olajuwon was the great center ever in 1995. No one can seriously claim Olajuwon has a case to be considered the best player ever, like Kareem does.
[QUOTE=KingBeasley08]^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true[/QUOTE]
Thanks for responding.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZXhAZ.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/aus3q.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=TheAnchorman]Shaqattack will say Shaq is greater than either of them, while lauber will say Chamberlain > Shaq. 5 pages of arguments will happen between each other, then KBlaze will chime in and write a thesis about how we can't conclusively prove that each center is better, lamenting on the state of the forum and how its gone down from the early 2000s.
:D[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Funny thing is, though: all of those posters might be biased (like everyone else), but they are still >>>>>>>>> 99% of ISH.
[QUOTE=KingBeasley08]^ Writing 10000000 words that no one will respond to doesn't make your point true[/QUOTE]
It was 2,049 words. And the last post was 1,095 words long, and he wrote it in 4 minutes. That's pretty impressive.
Kareem.. without a doubt. Kareem could play at both ends of the floor. He was a good defender and a scoring machine.
[QUOTE=lakers_forever]Anyone who claim Hakeem was greater than Olajuwon.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:D A typo does not invalidate the rest of my argument.
Kareem was a MUCH better scorer. A MUCH more efficient SHOOTER. And a MUCH better passer. In their primes, they were about equal in terms of rebounding and defense.
Then, you can just take a look at the rest of their resumes...
Kareem with a 6-1 edge in MVPs, and a 6-2 edge in rings. And he scored the most points in NBA history.
Olajuwon is WELL BEHIND Kareem using almost any intelligent criteria.
[QUOTE=jstern]It was 2,049 words. And the last post was 1,095 words long, and he wrote it in 4 minutes. That's pretty impressive.[/QUOTE]
I hate to spoil the suspense, but he cuts and pastes the same 50-100 responses all the time.
Also, there is no Santa or Slash
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I hate to spoil the suspense, but he cuts and pastes the same 50-100 responses all the time.
Also, there is no Santa or Slash[/QUOTE]
Last southpark definitely proved there is a slash...
[B]Id go with Kareem but Hakeem is the Best CF I ever saw...Better than Duncan and Hayes[/B]
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Hakeem gets [I]under[/I]rated?
:wtf:[/QUOTE]
THE most under-rated player on this forum is Russell. And Wilt is not far behind him in that category, either.
[QUOTE=LebronGOAT]
Kareem had more longevity, but I will take prime Hakeem over Kareem. Prime Hakeem was a monster and a far superior player than he was when younger.[/QUOTE]
i saw both of them in their primes and kareem's prime--mid to late 70s-- was better than hakeem's prime
kareem was simply dominant in the mid 70s-- defensively too
it's too bad that most people here had not seen kareem in his priime and just rely on stats or his last years in the mid 80s
you would all have a much different opinion
[QUOTE=RainierBeachPoet]i saw both of them in their primes and kareem's prime--mid to late 70s-- was better than hakeem's prime
kareem was simply dominant in the mid 70s-- defensively too
it's too bad that most people here had not seen kareem in his priime and just rely on stats or his last years in the mid 80s
you would all have a much different opinion[/QUOTE]
I don't recall Hakeem ever averaging 34.8 ppg in a season, nor 16.9 rpg in a season, nor .604 from the floor, nor 5.4 apg.
Kareem had FOUR seasons of over 30 ppg. He had FOUR seasons of over 16 rpg. He had THREE seasons of over 5 apg. NONE of which Hakeem EVER achieved in a single season. And Hakeem's HIGH FG% season was .538. Kareem managed to better that in 15 of his seasons.
It is just unfathomable that anyone could possibly claim that Hakeem's peak was greater than Kareem's.
i hope this is a joke thread
[quote=Gifted Mind]Of course for many it could depend on if we are comparing their careers or their respective primes.[/quote]Either way, it isn't close.
maybe CAJ was more dominant but he couldn't do half of things Hakeem could.
with CAJ it was same boring s@%t all over again but i only watched him in late '80,maybe he could dribble or shoot from the range
[QUOTE=PHILA]Either way, it isn't close.[/QUOTE]
this. Kareem is so underrated on this board.
[QUOTE=Laimbeer_Rodman]maybe CAJ was more dominant but he couldn't do half of things Hakeem could.
with CAJ it was same boring s@%t all over again but i only watched him in late '80,maybe he could dribble or shoot from the range[/QUOTE]
this is a new one. Careem? Caream? Cream?
Further evidence that the ignorant always identify themselves with their inability to spell the names of the players they critique.
Prime KAJ was a 30 pt/14 reb/4 ast/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player and upped that to like 33/15/4/57% in the playoffs. Hakeem isn't even close. Stop overrating him.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]this is a new one. Careem? Caream? Cream? Further evidence that the ignorant always identify themselves with their inability to spell the names of the players they critique.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps he heard the old joke too many times:
[I]Q: Why don't the Lakers have coffee anymore?
A: Cause Kareem left![/I]
:hammerhead:
[QUOTE=PHILA]Either way, it isn't close.[/QUOTE]
Peak to peak, '93-'95 Hakeem is there with anyone. Maybe not better but lol @ "it isn't close".
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Peak to peak, '93-'95 Hakeem is there with anyone. Maybe not better but lol @ "it isn't close".[/QUOTE]
he really isn't. And yes, it isn't close. It is a sizable difference, no cogent argument can be made for Hakeem.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Prime KAJ was a 30 pt/14 reb/4 ast/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player and upped that to like 33/15/4/57% in the playoffs. Hakeem isn't even close. Stop overrating him.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem isn't close?
It wasn't Hakeem's fault that it was Kareem and not him that first played with Oscar Robertson and Dandridge when he won his first chip, and then had the benifit to play with the best PG by all-time and the prime Worthy. It's not even funny how much better supporting cast Kareem had, he had 10 years playing beside the best point guard EVER!
Hakeem had his best years blown away while playing with scrubs and when he finally won he did it first with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Robert Horry and the year after he got a non-prime but still good Drexler with trading away Otis Thorpe.
Kareem won while with the Bucks playing with Dandridge and Robertson and then he didn't win smack for 9 years until Magic was drafted and before that he still had good players by his side like Wilkes, Dantley, Nixon, Goodrich, Allen etc..
When Kareem won with the Lakers he had prime Magic who is the best PG ever, Wilkes at the beginning of his stint with great scoring abilities, after 83 had on of the best SF's ever in Worthy by his side and with that he had great role players like Cooper and Scott by his side.
Kareem had so much better players by his side that it's not even funny, of course he won alot more than Hakeem, if not it would just be silly..
And talking about playoffs, Hakeem still had better playoff-stats. Hakeem averaged more points per game than any center ever (including Wilt, Shaq and Kareem) in the playoffs. His other stats are also superior to Kareem's in the playoffs.
Kareem averaged:
Points: 24.3/game
Rebounds: 10.5/game
Assists: 3.2/game
Hakeem averaged:
Points: 25.9/game
Rebounds: 11.2/game
Assists: 3.2/game
And Hakeem also averaged more steals and blocks in the playoffs..
With this said I'm not trying to say that Hakeem is better than Kareem, I'm just saying that some of you are taking alot away from Hakeem, it's closer than many of you are trying to imply.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Prime KAJ was a 30 pt/14 reb/4 ast/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player and upped that to like 33/15/4/57% in the playoffs. Hakeem isn't even close. Stop overrating him.[/QUOTE]
Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise. Even with higher pace Kareem's best was similar or worse than Dream's best in the Playoffs. Speaking of which, Kareem had pretty memorable meltdowns, and didnt had All-time great performance to remember. How sophomore Dream beat Showtime Lakers was more impressive than Kareem's best, and thats before getting to '94 Championship. Give Hakeem Oscar and super stacked Lakers with Magic, and he would probably have more rings than Kareem.
Above I mentioned scoring and rebounding (hardly any advantage for Kareem adjusting pace), how about defense? Hakeem was clearly better, and I mean [B]clearly[/B].
Kareem is ranked higher due to accolades and longevity, which is perfectly fine. But if I would have to choose prime Kareem or Hakeem, I'm betting on Dream.
[QUOTE=Harison]Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise. [B]Even with higher pace Kareem's best was similar or worse than Dream's best in the Playoffs. [/B]Speaking of which, Kareem had pretty memorable meltdowns, and didnt had All-time great performance to remember. How sophomore Dream beat Showtime Lakers was more impressive than Kareem's best, and thats before getting to '94 Championship. Give Hakeem Oscar and super stacked Lakers with Magic, and he would probably have more rings than Kareem.
Above I mentioned scoring and rebounding (hardly any advantage for Kareem adjusting pace), how about defense? Hakeem was clearly better, and I mean [B]clearly[/B].
Kareem is ranked higher due to accolades and longevity, which is perfectly fine. But if I would have to choose prime Kareem or Hakeem, I'm betting on Dream.[/QUOTE]
What exactly is your argument? that "Kareem's best was similar or worst" than Hakeems best in the playoffs? That's it.
Kareem won 6 regular season MVP awards. The is an unprecedented amount of dominance. You can adjust for pace all you want, Kareem was simple considered just better than everyone else in the league.
Hakeem wasnt considered better than the other great centers until the season he won titles. Lets not retroactively act like he was considered better than David Robinson because of what happen in that 1 series.
[QUOTE=millwad][B]Hakeem had his best years blown away while playing with scrubs [/B]and when he finally won he did it first with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Robert Horry and the year after he got a non-prime but still good Drexler with trading away Otis Thorpe.[/QUOTE]
Uh...and so were Kareem's after about '74 and even then many of the years where it looked like he could take his cast to a championship, his "second option" usually got hurt in or before the playoffs (Oscar in '72, Lucius Allen in '74, Lucius Allen and others in '77). Hakeem had it rough after '86 too though, things looked so promising but injuries and drugs killed what was a very talented core.
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Uh...and so were Kareem's after about '74 and even then many of the years where it looked like he could take his cast to a championship, his "second option" usually got hurt in or before the playoffs (Oscar in '72, Lucius Allen in '74, Lucius Allen and others in '77). Hakeem had it rough after '86 too though, things looked so promising but injuries and drugs killed what was a very talented core.[/QUOTE]
What I said was that Kareem had amazingly more talent on his teams, even during those years he didn't win smack than Hakeem did. Talentwise there are teams he played for that didn't do any noise at all that had more talent in them than Hakeem had in 94, that's a fact.
In some of those years you mention I think he had just as good or better players by his side than Hakeem had in 94 and 95. I'm not gonna mention his Lakers-period since everyone knows that he played with prime Magic and prime Worthy..
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]What exactly is your argument? that "Kareem's best was similar or worst" than Hakeems best in the playoffs? That's it. [/QUOTE]
How Kareem's best Playoffs 34.6/17.7/4.1 on higher pace is better than Dream's 37.5/16.8/1.8? How many All-time great Kareem series do you remember? Not so many, none of them more memorable than Dream's. I could remind you of Kareem epic meltdowns, how many do you know by Dream?
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]
Kareem won 6 regular season MVP awards. The is an unprecedented amount of dominance. You can adjust for pace all you want, Kareem was simple considered just better than everyone else in the league.[/QUOTE]
Kareem was winning over Jerry West, old Wilt, losing to Dave Cowens, McAdoo, etc. Not exactly super stacked competition, isnt? Plus MVP voting is usually tied to better record, better team = more MVPs for its star player.
Hakeem was fighting for MVP with prime Larry Bird, prime Magic, prime Jordan, Malone, DRob, young Shaq, etc. [B]and did it with a crap team.[/B] No love from voters.
As I said, swap those players, and Dream would have as much if not more MVPs, rings, and a couple of extra DPOYs as well.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]
Hakeem wasnt considered better than the other great centers until the season he won titles. Lets not retroactively act like he was considered better than David Robinson because of what happen in that 1 series.[/QUOTE]
DRob was fantastic player, better than Duncan, but Playoffs really harmed Robinsons image. If Kareem didnt had super stacked Lakers with Magic along, how we would view Kareem today? Losing as 1st seed to 8th seed, plenty of other upsets, getting outplayed by direct competitors. Thats not exactly stellar resume.
[QUOTE=millwad]What I said was that Kareem had amazingly more talent on his teams, even during those years he didn't win smack than Hakeem did. Talentwise there are teams he played for that didn't do any noise at all that had more talent in them than Hakeem had in 94, that's a fact.[/QUOTE]
Kareem got those talented teams when he was 33, and also when the league was getting stronger at the top (particularly the East). He was out of his prime by '81. It's like old Hakeem getting Barkley, Drexler and later Pippen (though I realize they were old, but still great players), and then acting like Hakeem had that sort of talent to play with in his prime (KAJ made most of the talent that surrounded him on those Laker teams because of his crazy longevity). His mid-20s-late-20s were spent playing on very flawed teams or he had unfortunate circumstance of key injuries to his supporting cast (mainly the second best player on his teams) at the absolute worst time (playoffs). You can't just compare a supporting cast's talent by the numbers and then translate that across eras (too different distribution of talent league-wide across the eras), the '94 team for example is absolutely not good enough to beat the 80s Celtics and maybe even the early 80s Sixer teams.
[QUOTE]How Kareem's best Playoffs 34.6/17.7/4.1 on higher pace is better than Dream's 37.5/16.8/1.8? [/QUOTE]
KAJ's numbers are over 11 games. Hakeem's numbers are over 4 games. KAJ's team in the playoffs also had a pace factor of only 103.6 which is basically around what a lot of teams were at in the regular season during the late 80s.
[QUOTE]I could remind you of Kareem epic meltdowns, how many do you know by Dream?[/QUOTE]
Outside of '73, I fail to see these "epic meltdowns". I mean yea Moses outplayed him when he was like 35 but Hakeem looked even more ordinary at that age (see Sonics series in '96 for example). You don't even need to convince me that Hakeem belongs in the discussion (prime vs. prime) because I think Hakeem is there with anyone, but at least argue it better (and more fairly) than this.
[QUOTE][B]Losing as 1st seed to 8th seed[/B], plenty of other upsets, getting outplayed by direct competitors.[/QUOTE]
When did this happen?
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Kareem got those talented teams when he was 33, and also when the league was getting stronger at the top (particularly the East). He was out of his prime by '81. It's like old Hakeem getting Barkley, Drexler and later Pippen (though I realize they were old, but still great players), and then acting like Hakeem had that sort of talent to play with in his prime (KAJ made most of the talent that surrounded him on those Laker teams because of his crazy longevity). His mid-20s-late-20s were spent playing on very flawed teams or he had unfortunate circumstance of key injuries to his supporting cast (mainly the second best player on his teams) at the absolute worst time (playoffs). You can't just compare a supporting cast's talent by the numbers and then translate that across eras (too different distribution of talent league-wide across the eras), the '94 team for example is absolutely not good enough to beat the 80s Celtics and maybe even the early 80s Sixer teams.
Outside of '73, I fail to see these "epic meltdowns". I mean yea Moses outplayed him when he was like 35 but Hakeem looked even more ordinary at that age (see Sonics series in '96 for example). You don't even need to convince me that Hakeem belongs in the discussion (prime vs. prime) because I think Hakeem is there with anyone, but at least argue it better (and more fairly) than this.
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It's a lie to say that Kareem got the talented teams when he was 33 and I'm not really gonna argue player by player he's played with, the only thing I'm saying is that Kareem had extremely more talented players around him than Hakeem did.
And seriously, don't get silly now, are you seriously gonna compare prime Magic Johnson, the best point guard by all time and prime Worthy who's one of the best SF by all-time with a non-prime Drexler and a non-prime Barkley?
Drexler wasn't even in his prime when he joined the Rockets and Barkley could barely walk at that time..
It's not a debate really, Kareem had the benifit of playing with great players, greater player than Hakeem ever had the opportunity to play with. Even during the years Kareem didn't win a thing he had greater players than Hakeem had during his first and 2nd championship-runs.
Bottom line, put Hakeem in Kareem's shoes and I don't doubt him winning that much..
[QUOTE=Harison]Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise. [/QUOTE]
Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.
So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.
So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.[/QUOTE]
Prime Hakeem faced better opponets than prime Kareem did..
Hakeem has better playoffstats, stop overrating Kareem..
[QUOTE=millwad]Prime Hakeem faced better opponets than prime Kareem did..
Hakeem has better playoffstats, stop overrating Kareem..[/QUOTE]
It's clear that you've never even looked at KAJ's playoff stats. :oldlol: Here are his four best postseasons of >1 series:
35/17/4/4/57% FG/61% TS
35/18/4/4/61% FG/65% TS
32/16/5/4/56% FG/58% TS
32/12/3/4/57% FG/61% TS
Now here are Hakeem's:
33/10/5/3/53% FG/56% TS
29/11/4/4/52% FG/57% TS
29/11/3/4/62% FG/66% TS
26/14/5/5/52% FG/57% TS
Hakeem is no slouch, but KAJ is superior, even when you drop the rebounding by ~2-3 per game for pace depending on the year.