Hakeem vs Kareem

[QUOTE=millwad]What I said was that Kareem had amazingly more talent on his teams, even during those years he didn't win smack than Hakeem did. Talentwise there are teams he played for that didn't do any noise at all that had more talent in them than Hakeem had in 94, that's a fact.[/QUOTE]
Kareem got those talented teams when he was 33, and also when the league was getting stronger at the top (particularly the East). He was out of his prime by '81. It's like old Hakeem getting Barkley, Drexler and later Pippen (though I realize they were old, but still great players), and then acting like Hakeem had that sort of talent to play with in his prime (KAJ made most of the talent that surrounded him on those Laker teams because of his crazy longevity). His mid-20s-late-20s were spent playing on very flawed teams or he had unfortunate circumstance of key injuries to his supporting cast (mainly the second best player on his teams) at the absolute worst time (playoffs). You can't just compare a supporting cast's talent by the numbers and then translate that across eras (too different distribution of talent league-wide across the eras), the '94 team for example is absolutely not good enough to beat the 80s Celtics and maybe even the early 80s Sixer teams.

[QUOTE]How Kareem's best Playoffs 34.6/17.7/4.1 on higher pace is better than Dream's 37.5/16.8/1.8? [/QUOTE]
KAJ's numbers are over 11 games. Hakeem's numbers are over 4 games. KAJ's team in the playoffs also had a pace factor of only 103.6 which is basically around what a lot of teams were at in the regular season during the late 80s.

[QUOTE]I could remind you of Kareem epic meltdowns, how many do you know by Dream?[/QUOTE]
Outside of '73, I fail to see these "epic meltdowns". I mean yea Moses outplayed him when he was like 35 but Hakeem looked even more ordinary at that age (see Sonics series in '96 for example). You don't even need to convince me that Hakeem belongs in the discussion (prime vs. prime) because I think Hakeem is there with anyone, but at least argue it better (and more fairly) than this.

[QUOTE][B]Losing as 1st seed to 8th seed[/B], plenty of other upsets, getting outplayed by direct competitors.[/QUOTE]
When did this happen?

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Kareem got those talented teams when he was 33, and also when the league was getting stronger at the top (particularly the East). He was out of his prime by '81. It's like old Hakeem getting Barkley, Drexler and later Pippen (though I realize they were old, but still great players), and then acting like Hakeem had that sort of talent to play with in his prime (KAJ made most of the talent that surrounded him on those Laker teams because of his crazy longevity). His mid-20s-late-20s were spent playing on very flawed teams or he had unfortunate circumstance of key injuries to his supporting cast (mainly the second best player on his teams) at the absolute worst time (playoffs). You can't just compare a supporting cast's talent by the numbers and then translate that across eras (too different distribution of talent league-wide across the eras), the '94 team for example is absolutely not good enough to beat the 80s Celtics and maybe even the early 80s Sixer teams.


Outside of '73, I fail to see these "epic meltdowns". I mean yea Moses outplayed him when he was like 35 but Hakeem looked even more ordinary at that age (see Sonics series in '96 for example). You don't even need to convince me that Hakeem belongs in the discussion (prime vs. prime) because I think Hakeem is there with anyone, but at least argue it better (and more fairly) than this.
[/QUOTE]

It's a lie to say that Kareem got the talented teams when he was 33 and I'm not really gonna argue player by player he's played with, the only thing I'm saying is that Kareem had extremely more talented players around him than Hakeem did.

And seriously, don't get silly now, are you seriously gonna compare prime Magic Johnson, the best point guard by all time and prime Worthy who's one of the best SF by all-time with a non-prime Drexler and a non-prime Barkley?

Drexler wasn't even in his prime when he joined the Rockets and Barkley could barely walk at that time..

It's not a debate really, Kareem had the benifit of playing with great players, greater player than Hakeem ever had the opportunity to play with. Even during the years Kareem didn't win a thing he had greater players than Hakeem had during his first and 2nd championship-runs.

Bottom line, put Hakeem in Kareem's shoes and I don't doubt him winning that much..

[QUOTE=Harison]Adjust for pace, and Kareem will hardly have an edge over Dream scoring and rebounding wise. [/QUOTE]

Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.[/QUOTE]

Prime Hakeem faced better opponets than prime Kareem did..
Hakeem has better playoffstats, stop overrating Kareem..

[QUOTE=millwad]Prime Hakeem faced better opponets than prime Kareem did..
Hakeem has better playoffstats, stop overrating Kareem..[/QUOTE]

It's clear that you've never even looked at KAJ's playoff stats. :oldlol: Here are his four best postseasons of >1 series:

35/17/4/4/57% FG/61% TS
35/18/4/4/61% FG/65% TS
32/16/5/4/56% FG/58% TS
32/12/3/4/57% FG/61% TS

Now here are Hakeem's:

33/10/5/3/53% FG/56% TS
29/11/4/4/52% FG/57% TS
29/11/3/4/62% FG/66% TS
26/14/5/5/52% FG/57% TS

Hakeem is no slouch, but KAJ is superior, even when you drop the rebounding by ~2-3 per game for pace depending on the year.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.[/QUOTE]
Higher pace = more possessions = more shots and rebounds for star player, if they choose to. Common sense.

Prime Kareem pretty much never had above 30+ PPG, 3 seasons from sophomore till 25, and once 30.0 at 27 yrs. All other prime years Kareem was 24-27 PPG scorer, no idea from where you took 32 pt average. His avg during prime years was ~27, adjust pace, and it will be lower.

Once again, taking eras in consideration, Kareem barely had any advantage in scoring and rebounding. But game doesnt end there - Hakeem was better and more ruthless Playoffs performer, and was obviously better defender. So no, if anyone picks prime Dream over Kareem, he isnt crazy.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]It's clear that you've never even looked at KAJ's playoff stats. :oldlol: Here are his four best postseasons of >1 series:

35/17/4/4/57% FG/61% TS
35/18/4/4/61% FG/65% TS
32/16/5/4/56% FG/58% TS
32/12/3/4/57% FG/61% TS

Now here are Hakeem's:

33/10/5/3/53% FG/56% TS
29/11/4/4/52% FG/57% TS
29/11/3/4/62% FG/66% TS
26/14/5/5/52% FG/57% TS

Hakeem is no slouch, but KAJ is superior, even when you drop the rebounding by ~2-3 per game for pace depending on the year.[/QUOTE]

Hakeem has better average in the playoffs than Kareem careerwise, don't write that crap.

As matter of fact, Hakeem has the highest points per game average in the playoffs for any center by all-time, Kareem included.

Kareem in the playoffs averaged;

24.3 ppg, 10.5 rebounds, 3.2 assists

Hakeem in the playoffs averaged:

25.9 ppg, 11.2 rebounds, 3.2 assists

So Hakeem averaged more in points, grabbed more rebounds, averaged the same amount of assists and he hade more steals per game and blocks per game than Kareem.

Bottom line, Hakeem had better stats in the playoffs as an average than Kareem, suck it up. And lets not forget that Hakeem did it vs tougher opponents, the amount of great centers Hakeem faced on daily basis wasn't the same case for Jabbar.

I honestly think people are overrating Kareem because of his stats in the regular season and the amount of championships he won, lets not forget that the 70's wasn't the best of eras and lets not forget that Kareem played with much greatest teammates than Hakeem did.

Kareem has 2 finals MVP:s, he won it all 6 times, lets not forget how great teammates he had..

lol at dickwad. the guy is stupid as fucck. how many playoff games did kareem play after he was past his prime? now how many did hakeem play past his prime? those games in the late 80s brought kareems averages down unlike hakeem who was missing the playoffs or going fishing after a 1st round exit.

compare their number up to a certain age. probably 34 cause hakeem was done after that.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Individual scoring doesn't scale with pace, it scales with usage. And there's no reason that a prime KAJ in the late 80's or early 90's wouldn't be able to take the same # of shots and get the same # of touches as he got in the early/mid 70's. Rebounding would decrease to about 13-14 reb/gm from 15-16 reb/gm, yeah.

So you end up with a 32 pt/13.5 reb/4 blk/57% FG/60% TS player versus a 29/11/4 blk/52% FG/56% TS center. Like I said, stop overrating Hakeem. No one in their right mind would take Dream over KAJ prime vs. prime.[/QUOTE]

This
OldSchoolBBall, we have found something we agree on.

[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]lol at dickwad. the guy is stupid as fucck. how many playoff games did kareem play after he was past his prime? now how many did hakeem play past his prime? those games in the late 80s brought kareems averages down unlike hakeem who was missing the playoffs or going fishing after a 1st round exit.

compare their number up to a certain age. probably 34 cause hakeem was done after that.[/QUOTE]

Wow, all the insults and still you just made yourself look like a fool.. If we're gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem has a major advantage, after the age of 34 Hakeem averaged 13.1 points per game in the playoffs compared to Kareem's 20.4 points per game.

Bottom line, if we're just gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem's stats are even more superior to Kareem's in the playoffs..

Who's the dick now?

[QUOTE=millwad]Wow, all the insults and still you just made yourself look like a fool.. If we're gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem has a major advantage, after the age of 34 Hakeem averaged 13.1 points per game in the playoffs compared to Kareem's 20.4 points per game.

Bottom line, if we're just gonna compare them to the age of 34 Hakeem's stats are even more superior to Kareem's in the playoffs..

Who's the dick now?[/QUOTE]
get your facts straight.

kareem up until 34 which is 81-82 for him averaged 29/15/4/2 on 53.2% shooting. hakeem up until 34 which is 96-97 for him averaged 27/12/3/3 on 53.5% shooting.

hakeem's stats are better? you sure about that?

[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]get your facts straight.

kareem up until 34 which is 81-82 for him averaged 29/15/4/2 on 53.2% shooting. hakeem up until 34 which is 96-97 for him averaged 27/12/3/3 on 53.5% shooting.

hakeem's stats are better? you sure about that?[/QUOTE]

My bad, I miscalculated it but you still got Hakeem's scoring wrong, he would have had averaged 28 a game but still, this is a retarded argument by your side. Careerwise Hakeem had better stats in the playoffs, if there would be something called best scoring stats to the age of 34 for all the centers in the NBA, yeah, then your beloved Kareem would have won... Suck it up.

And even if you want to stick with that bs you're retarded, congratulations, you just took away one of his two Finals MVPs, making him having the half of Hakeem's finals mvp.. In the process of you trying to make Kareem look so great you took away 7 of his all-star appearances and also taking away half of his championship rings, WELL DONE, SIR!

Since when did Kareem NOT have epic playoff performances? Someone mentioned it up top and no one seemed to respond. This is simply not true.

The thing that is scary about Kareem is how long he was an All Star caliber player. People talk about Kareem's skyhook,but in his prime Kareem could do it all. He was very agile, had a face up J, could drop dimes, and of course rebound and D up. But at the same time I feel Hakeem is the most talented Center all around to ever lace them up. As far as dominant scoring goes hell Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Moses, Ewing, and Robinson were all dominant scorers. But's it's the all around skills of Hakeem, Kareem, and Robinson that make them unique.

[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]lol at dickwad. the guy is stupid as fucck. how many playoff games did kareem play after he was past his prime? now how many did hakeem play past his prime? those games in the late 80s brought kareems averages down unlike hakeem who was missing the playoffs or going fishing after a 1st round exit.

compare their number up to a certain age. probably 34 cause hakeem was done after that.[/QUOTE]

Actually, we don't even need to go to 34. Give Hakeem his whole playoff career stats, up to the age of 39, then take Kareem's stats up to the same age:

Hakeem: 25.9/11.2/3.2
Kareem: 27.3/12.0/3.8

Of course, this is already doing Hakeem a favor, since he only played in 14 playoff games between the ages of 35 and 39, while Kareem played in 83...

[QUOTE]Kareem has 2 finals MVP:s, he won it all 6 times, lets not forget how great teammates he had..[/QUOTE]

He should have won it 3 times. He was clearly more dominant than Magic in 1980, and it took a major injury and a marginal 4-3 voting result to deprive him of this. He was also the pretty much undisputed best player of the 1974 Finals, losing the MVP to Havlicek only because the Celtics won in Game 7.