SGA Is Already Better than Peak Lebron

Aside from the fact that he's not a shrivelly fourth quarter choker, SGA is poised to win MVP, FMVP, and scoring title in the same season - something Lebron was never able to do.

He's poised to win a ring organically, without jumping to a stacked team. Something Lebron couldn't do.

He's already scored 3,000 points this season, regular and post season combined. Lebron never did that.

He's the best two-way player since Jordan. A better team player and more efficient than Kobe. And clearly better than Lebron ever was.

LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15012999]LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


[B]And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.[/b]

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.[/QUOTE]
That's debatable, Hakeem by nature of his position was more impactful as a defender, MJ was a lockdown perimeter defender and had the most blocks and steals for guards multiple times but on the offensive end, MJ was clearly the better offensive player. Hakeem never led the league in scoring while MJ has the most scoring titles ever while winning a DPOY. Both were beasts on both ends, Hakeem gets the nod on defense while MJ easily has the edge on offense.

[QUOTE=TheMan;15013010]That's debatable, Hakeem by nature of his position was more impactful as a defender, MJ was a lockdown perimeter defender and had the most blocks for guards multiple times but on the offensive end, MJ was clearly the better offensive player. Hakeem never led the league in scoring while MJ has the most scoring titles ever while winning a DPOY. Both were beasts on both ends, Hakeem gets the nod on defense while MJ easily has the edge on offense.[/QUOTE]

Overrated defender

[video=youtube;p5aNUS762wM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM[/video]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15013011]Overrated defender

[video=youtube;p5aNUS762wM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM[/video][/QUOTE]

I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

I saw his career, I don't need to watch biased videos to change the narrative after the fact. If it's true you're in your late 20s, you rely on videos to get your info whereas I don't but nice chatting wit ya, dawg :cheers:

Forgot to add his fraud 1988 DPOY award, where they credited him fake steals and blocks

[video=youtube;MD2kOti016U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2kOti016U&t[/video]

BTW, I don't agree with OP that current SGA is a better two way player than peak LeBron, I'm not seeing it...yet.

[QUOTE=TheMan;15013014]BTW, I don't agree with OP that current SGA is a better two way player than peak LeBron, I'm not seeing it...yet.[/QUOTE]
If SGA is truly better than peak LeBron that would make him literally one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game. I don't see him reaching those heights :lol

If you're talking strictly two way players, not just peaks, then that's a different convo, but LeBron aside it's still a pretty outlandish claim.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15013017]If SGA is truly better than peak LeBron that would make him literally one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game. I don't see him reaching those heights :lol

If you're talking strictly two way players, not just peaks, then that's a different convo, but LeBron aside it's still a pretty outlandish claim.[/QUOTE]

He's still only 26, if he wins this year, he'll have won the NBA title younger than Jordan or James. He still hasn't reached his peak, dude might go on a run that puts him in the convo...or he may not, hence my "yet".

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15012999]LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15013011]Overrated defender

[video=youtube;p5aNUS762wM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM[/video][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15013013]Forgot to add his fraud 1988 DPOY award, where they credited him fake steals and blocks

[video=youtube;MD2kOti016U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2kOti016U&t[/video][/QUOTE]

Meltdown. :roll:

Bronie fluffer is shook by SGA.

:lebronamazed:

[QUOTE=Full Court;15013041]Don Nelson[/QUOTE]

:lol

[QUOTE=TheMan;15013019][B]He's still only 26, if he wins this year, he'll have won the NBA title younger than Jordan or James[/B]. He still hasn't reached his peak, dude might go on a run that puts him in the convo...or he may not, hence my "yet".[/QUOTE]

Yes,it should be noted this is Shai's 7th season, same as when MJ won his first.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15012990]Aside from the fact that he's not a shrivelly fourth quarter choker, SGA is poised to win MVP, FMVP, and scoring title in the same season - something Lebron was never able to do.

He's poised to win a ring organically, without jumping to a stacked team. Something Lebron couldn't do.

He's already scored 3,000 points this season, regular and post season combined. Lebron never did that.

He's the best two-way player since Jordan. A better team player and more efficient than Kobe. And clearly better than Lebron ever was.[/QUOTE]

I think Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem are the only people to ever win a scoring title, MVP, and FMVP in the same year. So I guess that would make Shai better than everyone else who didn’t do that either :lol

Also..the Thunder ARE stacked. Just because Shai is one of the lucky guys to play with a great organization capable of building a stacked cast “organically” doesn’t mean they aren’t stacked.

I’m probably as big of an SGA fan as anyone on ISH btw. But stop it :lol

Modern fandom is so toxic. Instead of enjoying SGA and cheering him on to win his 1st title, we're setting him up agaisnt Mount Olympus already because apparently hes so head and shoulders above the current crop of stars we need to compare him to GOAT's. :facepalm Enjoy the show fellas, **** these weirdos.

Fluffers!!! Hurdurrr!!!

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15012999]LeBron scored 2,999 points during the 2018 season/playoffs while dishing out considerably more assists than SGA.


And best two-way better since Jordan? LOL. Jordan wasn't even the best two way player in the 90's. That was Hakeem.

LeBron was better offensively/defensively during his back to back title run with Miami than SGA.[/QUOTE]


Lebron can't score compared to SGA - that's the issue - it's a big gap, so who cares about the assists

And Lebron isn't on any lists for 3k points in a season, or 3k + 600 assists, let alone winning titles like this, which only MJ did (and maybe SGA this year)..

Lebron also only needed 25 ppg to win the 2013 title because he had a super-team of 3 franchise players on 1 team... Lebron also averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the Finals to get a 1-2 deficit and need 7 games.. The Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 13' Finals (zero plus-minus and negative net rating).

[INDENT][img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-09-2025/uvWBVA.gif[/img][/INDENT]



[B]In addition to being the goat scorer, Jordan is also the goat playmaker:[/B]


[INDENT][IMG]https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-09-2025/5Ygdnu.gif[/IMG][/INDENT]


Only Jordan won titles while scoring 3k points (except 2000 Shaq), and only Jordan won a title with 3k points and 600 assists.

Given Jordan's singular level of domination, why should anyone be surprised that he won 6 chips as the best player (twice as many as anyone else in 3-pointer history)???.. His caliber of domination is unmatched

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15013109]Modern fandom is so toxic. Instead of enjoying SGA and cheering him on to win his 1st title, we're setting him up agaisnt Mount Olympus already because apparently hes so head and shoulders above the current crop of stars we need to compare him to GOAT's. :facepalm Enjoy the show fellas, **** these weirdos.[/QUOTE]

It's the microwave generation. We can't just let a player cook over the course of their careers and then weigh it out. Nothing but instant results or else they fall short of players whose entire careers are already etched in stone. The discourse sucks....

[QUOTE=TheMan;15013012]I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

I saw his career, I don't need to watch biased videos to change the narrative after the fact. If it's true you're in your late 20s, you rely on videos to get your info whereas I don't but nice chatting wit ya, dawg :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Yeah that video been debunked. Someone used this in an argument recently elsewhere. Eye test dawg eye test.

Offtopic but somewhat relatable is Randy moss never goes over the middle. One video posts how he doesn’t. Another Video debunks it. Tug of war. I watched Randy Moss. He ran over the middle.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15013100]I think Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem are the only people to ever win a scoring title, MVP, and FMVP in the same year. So I guess that would make Shai better than everyone else who didn’t do that either :lol

Also..the Thunder ARE stacked. Just because Shai is one of the lucky guys to play with a great organization capable of building a stacked cast “organically” doesn’t mean they aren’t stacked.

I’m probably as big of an SGA fan as anyone on ISH btw. But stop it :lol[/QUOTE]

Define stacked. Usually what’s implied by a stacked team meaning it’s loaded with talent. To where backups can start for other teams. Or maybe that’s my definition of stacked? I never got the sense that the Thunder were stacked. To me they have been the model of how a team should be built and play. Not that I want 32 teams playing like okc. They are the anti 3 star team that others keep trying to do. “I got two stars just need one more star player”. Whole time they can’t even fill a roster due to salary issues. SGA has help. So he doesn’t need it. But I also don’t think his team is stacked either. But again definitions can differ on what stacked means.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15013187]Define stacked. Usually what’s implied by a stacked team meaning it’s loaded with talent. To where backups can start for other teams. Or maybe that’s my definition of stacked? I never got the sense that the Thunder were stacked. To me they have been the model of how a team should be built and play. Not that I want 32 teams playing like okc. They are the anti 3 star team that others keep trying to do. “I got two stars just need one more star player”. Whole time they can’t even fill a roster due to salary issues. SGA has help. So he doesn’t need it. But I also don’t think his team is stacked either. But again definitions can differ on what stacked means.[/QUOTE]

I think Cason Wallace and Caruso would start for all but maybe a handful of teams. Caruso perhaps no more than 3 he wouldn’t. Wiggins and Joe probably for over half too. Wiggins had 41 in a game this year :lol

If you remove Shai I think Jalen Williams could be a 24-25 ppg guy and they’d probably still win 45-48ish games with all the depth. Maybe a little more honestly.

If “stacked” means star players together then no I guess not but they’re amazingly constructed.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15013207]I think Cason Wallace and Caruso would start for all but maybe a handful of teams. Caruso perhaps no more than 3 he wouldn’t. Wiggins and Joe probably for over half too. Wiggins had 41 in a game this year :lol

If you remove Shai I think Jalen Williams could be a 24-25 ppg guy and they’d probably still win 45-48ish games with all the depth. Maybe a little more honestly.

If “stacked” means star players together then no I guess not but they’re amazingly constructed.[/QUOTE]

Gotcha, I follow where you’re going with it. I agree they are amazingly constructed. I’m really interested in seeing how they look in 2 years whether they can keep everyone. Who they have to sacrifice that you figured were going to be apart of the core forever (Chet?). It’ll be interesting to see for a small market team.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15013225]Gotcha, I follow where you’re going with it. I agree they are amazingly constructed. I’m really interested in seeing how they look in 2 years whether they can keep everyone. Who they have to sacrifice that you figured were going to be apart of the core forever (Chet?). It’ll be interesting to see for a small market team.[/QUOTE]

Yea either Jalen or Chet will have to be gone unfortunately. Probably some combination or Joe, Wiggins, Wallace too.

They’ve done a great job of stacking picks in anticipation for this though. They’ve hit so well recently that I guess they’re banking on finding the right guys again. Wouldn’t put it past them.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15013207]I think Cason Wallace and Caruso would start for all but maybe a handful of teams. Caruso perhaps no more than 3 he wouldn’t. Wiggins and Joe probably for over half too. Wiggins had 41 in a game this year :lol

If you remove Shai I think Jalen Williams could be a 24-25 ppg guy and they’d probably still win 45-48ish games with all the depth. Maybe a little more honestly.

If “stacked” means star players together then no I guess not but they’re amazingly constructed.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. This is probably the best organic team since the '15 Warriors.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15013086]Bu-bu-bu-bu-but TOM BRADY!!![/QUOTE]

:roll:


[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15013116]Fluffers!!! Hurdurrr!!![/QUOTE]

You sound like a triggered Bronie fluffer.

:lebroncry:

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15013180]It's the microwave generation. We can't just let a player cook over the course of their careers and then weigh it out. Nothing but instant results or else they fall short of players whose entire careers are already etched in stone. The discourse sucks....[/QUOTE]

It's not about that. We're seeing greatness, and agenda driven "fans", such as 1987_Lakers try to undermind and downplay because it hurts their own fake narrative they're trying to push.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15013236]It's not about that. We're seeing greatness, and agenda driven "fans", such as 1987_Lakers try to undermind and downplay because it hurts their own fake narrative they're trying to push.[/QUOTE]

I just would like to see players judged within the context of their eras, contemporaries and situations. It's getting nigh high impossible to compare players decades apart over near 80 years of NBA basketball. Makes it really hard to just enjoy what's happening in the moment because there's this weird need to be compared to the past ( I know it's not unique to basketball but it really feels so antagonistic in tone compared to some other sports).

[QUOTE=Full Court;15013232]I agree with this. This is probably the best organic team since the '15 Warriors.[/QUOTE]

OKC didn't draft Shai... they're not organic, chico

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15013230]Yea either Jalen or Chet will have to be gone unfortunately. Probably some combination or Joe, Wiggins, Wallace too.

They’ve done a great job of stacking picks in anticipation for this though. They’ve hit so well recently that I guess they’re banking on finding the right guys again. Wouldn’t put it past them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah who can really argue with the track record of drafting replacement and/or trading for them even. Great situation to be in for a franchise.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15013241]OKC didn't draft Shai... they're not organic, chico[/QUOTE]

^Incredibly low IQ take. OKC didn't draft a lot of their players. No team has drafted all their players. Organic means they developed their players rather than hunting for stars. Glad I could educate you.

If it weren't for Fat, OP would be the heaviest poster on the forum.

Crazy talk.

[QUOTE=MrFonzworth;15013307]If it weren't for Fat, OP would be the heaviest poster on the forum.[/QUOTE]

You sound like this thread upset you. :lol

Here's a serious question though. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being an utter meltdown, how upset were you about Lebron choking away the serious against the TWolves?

:roll:

[QUOTE=TheMan;15013012]I've seen that video, it's been debunked.

I saw his career, I don't need to watch biased videos to change the narrative after the fact. If it's true you're in your late 20s, you rely on videos to get your info whereas I don't but nice chatting wit ya, dawg :cheers:[/QUOTE]

He just needs confirmation bias. He doesn't really care about actual analysis. Which Lakers fans you know hate Kobe?

[QUOTE=Full Court;15012990]Aside from the fact that he's not a shrivelly fourth quarter choker, SGA is poised to win MVP, FMVP, and scoring title in the same season - something Lebron was never able to do.

He's poised to win a ring organically, without jumping to a stacked team. Something Lebron couldn't do.

He's already scored 3,000 points this season, regular and post season combined. Lebron never did that.

He's the best two-way player since Jordan. A better team player and more efficient than Kobe. And clearly better than Lebron ever was.[/QUOTE]

This is an absurd take. SGA isn't the defender that peak LeBron was, nor is his game as explosive as LeBron. If you want to isolate some seasons, then sure. But SGA isn't on the level of LeBron circa 2009-2014. In fact, I wouldn't say he's on the level of LeBron 2015-18, either.

[QUOTE=TheMan;15013012]I've seen that video, it's been debunked. [/QUOTE]

Debunked by who? Some obsessed MJ fan on youtube? :lol

He's a more complete player than peak Bron for sure. No weaknesses.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15013355]Debunked by who? Some obsessed MJ fan on youtube? :lol[/QUOTE]

No, just about anyone who watched him play at any point of his career between 1988-93 could debunk it. You don't get to be a top 5 DPOY vote getter almost every year and being heralded by many analysts as being the best defensive player in the league (irrespective of truth) despite not being an elite big without [I]actually[/I] being great defensively.

Gambling the passing lanes was a necessary consequence of not having elite shot blocking on the team back then. If you watched the Bulls, they were masterminds of the full court press. Their perimeter defense (including MJ's consistent harassment), put pressure on teams offensively. MJ was a constant pest because his speed and quickness allowed him to play elite help defense the way few guards could, and allowed him to cover almost the entire half-court set.

This was something mentioned by a lot of post players during that time, because they knew MJ was lurking and it made it more difficult to establish in the post, or perimeter guys to evade screens.

So while Taylor is correct, it's completely devoid of context, let alone the results that it yielded -- mainly an ECF appearance of finals appearance/title.

Individual stats and percentages don't tell the whole story, but you're entirely agenda driven so it doesn't surprise me that you saw something and used it to pull down MJ's position in basketball history.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15013361]No, just about anyone who watched him play at any point of his career between 1988-93 could debunk it.[B] You don't get to be a top 5 DPOY vote getter almost every year[/B] and being heralded by many analysts as being the best defensive player in the league (irrespective of truth) despite not being an elite big without [I]actually[/I] being great defensively. [/QUOTE]

Ben Taylor and his team watched over 200 MJ games to confirm this, he wasn't just nitpicking games. We saw Kobe make 12 All-Defensive teams, most of them were undeserving, I really don't put much stock into how high he finished into DPOY voting, we all know about his case in '88 where he was gifted fake steals and blocks to win the award. (Hakeem was more deserving that year)

We saw a 35 year old MJ finish 4th in DPOY voting in '98, over Tim Duncan

We saw him finish 2nd in '93, over David Robinson and Patrick Ewing who anchored a historic defense that year.

I'm supposed to believe these votings are accurate? LOL

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15013358]He's a more complete player than peak Bron for sure. No weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

Is he? Peak LeBron was pretty well-rounded. When was his peak, and what is meant by [I]more complete[/I]? How do we contextualize this relative to position? James' size affords him a degree of versatility Gilgeous-Alexander can't hope to match, on offense [I]and[/I] defense.

A simple look at Synergy Sports Tracking's play-type statistics shows us this to be true. Let's compare 2013-14 LeBron to 2024-25 Shai:

[QUOTE][SIZE=2]PPP = points per possession; volume = number of possessions per game; POE = points over expectation (league average)

Points Over Expectation is a metric that highlights how much more efficient a player is than what we can expect from league average performance in each play.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[B]2013-14 LeBron RS[/B]

Isolation: 97th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 100th percentile PPP, 73rd percentile volume, 8th POE rank
Spot-up: 91st percentile PPP, 48th percentile volume, 41st POE rank
Transition: 94th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Roll Man: 90th percentile PPP, 21st percentile volume, 34.5th POE rank
Cut: 92nd percentile PPP, 71st percentile volume, 18th POE rank
Hand-off: N/A
Off Screen: 70th percentile PPP, 73rd percentile volume, 56th POE rank
Putback: 94th percentile PPP, 60th percentile volume, 25th POE rank
Post-up: 99th percentile PPP, 84th percentile volume, 4th POE rank

[B]2013-14 LeBron PO[/B]

Isolation: 95th percentile PPP, 98th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 92nd percentile PPP, 80th percentile volume, 4th POE rank
Spot-up: 68th percentile PPP, 54th percentile volume, 50th POE rank
Transition: 98th percentile PPP, 95th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
PnR Roll Man: 88th percentile PPP, 62nd percentile volume, 15th POE rank
Cut: 100th percentile PPP, 74th percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
Hand-off: 62nd percentile PPP, 15th percentile volume, 41th POE rank
Off Screen: 75th percentile PPP, 79th percentile volume, 20th POE rank
Putback: 98th percentile PPP, 63rd percentile volume, 4.5th POE rank
Post-up: 100th percentile PPP, 89th percentile volume, 1st POE rank

[B]2024-25 Shai RS[/B]

Isolation: 99th percentile PPP, 100th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 99th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
Spot-up: 95th percentile PPP, 30th percentile volume, 27th POE rank
Transition: 86th percentile PPP, 99th percentile volume, 3rd POE rank
PnR Roll Man: N/A
Cut: 87th percentile PPP, 45th percentile volume, 43rd POE rank
Hand-off: 97th percentile PPP, 51st percentile volume, 18th POE rank
Off Screen: 65th percentile PPP, 48th percentile volume, 65th POE rank
Putback: 100th percentile PPP, 31st percentile volume, 12th POE rank
Post-up: 72nd percentile PPP, 69th percentile volume, 34th POE rank

[B]2024-25 Shai PO[/B]

Isolation: 67th percentile PPP, 89th percentile volume, 7th POE rank
PnR Ball Handler: 88th percentile PPP, 97th percentile volume, 1st POE rank
Spot-up: 7th percentile PPP, 18th percentile volume, 104th POE rank
Transition: 80th percentile PPP, 93rd percentile volume, 2nd POE rank
PnR Roll Man: N/A
Cut: N/A
Hand-off: N/A
Off Screen: N/A
Putback: 19th percentile PPP, 27th percentile volume, 26th POE rank
Post-up: 100th percentile PPP, 14th percentile volume, 1st POE rank