Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

When the defense is allowed to camp in the paint indefinitely and isn't even guarding the three point line to begin with, as was the case in previous eras, why is a strong-side flood or other scrambling scheme needed?.. Why would anyone think to come up with such a strategy?

Those schemes were originally developed to specifically combat the arrival of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds, which were things that didn't exist in previous eras, so as one would figure and as the video below demonstrates, those strategies weren't needed to play effective defense, since you COULD pack the paint and were defending a shot allocation of all two-pointers..

Since the scrambling schemes were developed to combat new things that didn't exist in previous eras, the absence of such sophistication defensively in previous eras certainly wouldn't mean it was easier to score, and the stats don't back that such an assertion either.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aefec46a22dd4b99.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef003568c2.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=DatAsh]We also need to consider that on average, players are much better 3 point shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s.[/QUOTE]

How would you even figure out if this is a true statement or not? :confusedshrug:

Ray Allen was drafted in 1996, shot about 4 3s per game from then-2000. When the rule changes in the middle of the 2000s happened, he was taking upwards of 8 per game. I mean, did he get better as a shooter or were the conditions for his 3 point shooting improved?

Dell Curry was a 6'4" sharpshooter who was getting 1-3 3-pt attempts per game in the 90s until the league shortened the line, then he was getting about 5 per game. His son is a 6'3" sharpshooter who takes 8 3s per game. Is Steph really that much of a better 3-pt shooter than his father or is he operating under more optimal conditions (like Dell got when the league moved the line temporarily)?

[QUOTE=DatAsh]

I think players simply seeking the dunk more now has something to do with it.

[/QUOTE]
The theory that players seek the dunk more today is an insult to guys that played in the 80's who were influenced by Dr. J and others.. it will also be an insult 10 years from now when someone says that about today's players.

The more rational reason for material shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are rule changes and factors affecting style of play, especially since the NBA said as much - they changed the rules specifically to reduce physicality, "open up the game" and have more dunks.

[QUOTE=fpliii]
No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those (prevalence and athleticism) are just alternative hypotheses.
[/QUOTE]
The shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence to be the cause - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunks went back down to earlier levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well, as it did pretty materially in 2010 too.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.
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[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]
[/quote]

Err, that's a one-leg takeoff, not a hop step. And he certainly didn't get more air than Jordan on that dunk.

[quote]and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Who said that James was INCAPABLE of jumping off a hop step? What I said was that he is a VASTLY worse leaper than Jordan off of a hop step, and I asked you to find an example of him dunking ON someone off a hop step. The video you posted shows him just doing an uncontested dunk off a hop step, and showing very little vertical to boot (as expected, since he's a comparatively poor hop step leaper). Hell, it looks like he barely completes the dunk.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Except he [I]clearly[/I] didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

[B]Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:[/B]

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/lR8Tut3C7gxcA/giphy.gif[/IMG]

from all the bball ive watched, and ive watched alot, i think dwade has had the most "challenged, chest to chest poster dunks" of any wing player for this generation.

[IMG]http://instntrply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBronDunk.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/kDrgtw.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/ovYBdj.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/Qz76AL.gif[/IMG]

^all upper body/chest dunks. for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron. the combination of power, speed, and aesthetics. my goodness. :eek: notice that all these dunks are contested by vaunted defenders/team defenses too?

you can also see what collengelo was referring to about defenses being more complex. look at the quick help defense (double teams) as soon as lebron is getting ready to drive. damn. like barkley said though, it doesnt matter when dude is that big, fast and strong. per barkley, the most unstoppable perimeter player in history.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][IMG]http://instntrply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBronDunk.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/kDrgtw.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/ovYBdj.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/Qz76AL.gif[/IMG]

^all upper body/chest dunks. for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron. the combination of power, speed, and aesthetics. my goodness. :eek: notice that all these dunks are contested by vaunted defenders/team defenses too?

you can also see what collengelo was referring to about defenses being more complex. look at the quick help defense (double teams) as soon as lebron is getting ready to drive. damn. like barkley said though, it doesnt matter when dude is that big, fast and strong. per barkley, the most unstoppable perimeter player in history.[/QUOTE]

bwahahahahaha @ all of this reaching.

We've posted double the amount of videos and gifs and we've yet to scratch the surface. And now by posting a few it makes Bron better?

Those are some pretty impressive dunks by LeBron, though. One thing I notice about his posters is that they're very Shaq-like.

Sheer power bulldozing anything in sight.

Nice gifs.

i have more footage from his cleveland days that i've yet to post.

lebron has better power dunks chest to chest. period. as kuniva said, straight power and dismantling of his opposition.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron.[/QUOTE][img]http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif[/img]

i think anyone who says lebron cant dunk off two feet at all, or doesnt have a single "chest to chest poster" dunk is being a bit dishonest. but i think anyone with half a brain at least knows that jordan does this MUCH better and with MUCH more frequency.

just like how you can find a highlight of bron or kobe doing a crazy circus shot. sure its something that they can pull out of their *ss every now and then, but those crazy circus shots were part of jordan's regularly used repertoire.

[IMG]http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif[/IMG]

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR

One important facet that people are overlooking is MJ's ability to read and react.

His court vision (as was talked about in a past thread) is beyond that of Bron and Kobe. Only a handful of players can even come close (Bird, Magic and perhaps a few others).

MJ was able to read the defense and react before the defense settled. Couple that with his lightning fast cat like moves he was able to dunk before the defense knew what hit them, even in a more congested space.

Another important factor is his ability to read the defense with his back turned to the rim. He is the master at beating the defense with his back to the basket, either hitting turnaround shots, making a pass or where he is completely untouchable by attacking. Going through some of his highlights his back was usually to the basket. And he's suddenly spin and dunk before the defense adjusted.

So it wasn't that the defense was 'weak' like some try to claim. He was just that much quicker and smarter.

Example... every other dunk in this vid
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&channel=medestinier[/url]

You'll notice him just exploding and losing the defender and getting to the rim for the dunk before the defense can adjust properly. As soon as he notices a rotating defender, possible double team, or any slight crease he attacks.

He's also great at catching and dunking. It takes him a split second to read and react. He can not just catch and react, but his ability to jump from any angle and position without dribbling or taking an extra step is what separates him from Bron and Kobe and to be honest most dunkers ever (including VC). He rarely has to gather himself for a dunk (or a shot), his moves are seamless never breaking stride.

One last thing that's perhaps unique to MJ.

His ability to 'adjust' while in the air.

I can't think of too many dunkers that can adjust while in the air. He'd be up in the air and shift his body to an angle entirely while cocking the ball back. Again, this is while in the air, not before takeoff or during takeoff. He'd jump up and switch hands (which isn't so rare) but also move the ball away from defenders at the same time. I've seen people do both of those, but I can't think of too many instances in which people have done these things at the same time. At least not as often as he has.

He's shifted his body and pumped the ball while in the air to avoid double teams. Re-read... to avoid double teams while in the air.

He's been hit while in the air so his body shifts, yet he still pumps the ball with one hand and dunks it.

Maybe somebody will post a gif or link of somebody doing that once or twice, but not as many as MJ and not with the combinations of actions that I posted. Closest I think of right now is Blake Griffin with some of the stuff.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][IMG]http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif[/IMG]

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR[/QUOTE]

How can they be GOAT when 90% are against midgets? and most of them aren't even contesting?