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[quote]He has to prove that he's a top 5 player.[/quote]
I hope you're not implying he hasn't proven he's top 5 worthy.
[quote]You have to prove yourself every season. You can't coast off what you did the year before.[/quote]
Well of course right now Dirk > Wade, because Wade's injured. That's easy. But when Wade is healthy, he's the better player.
[QUOTE=Free]Huh? Shaq played damn near half the season, how is he responisble for the Heat being in the playoffs? And Wade being injured doens't make him a bad player, he suffered a freak injury, one that he will more than likely recover from. Not to mention he was averaging crazy # prior to his injury (29/8/5, 2 stl and 1.3 bl).[/QUOTE]
I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the Heat had a losing record when Wade got injured....and then Shaq brought them back up.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]ok, then why the fu-ck do you have him ranked higher?[/QUOTE]
Because it was based on when he's healthy, of course.
Kobe
Duncan
Wade
Lebron
Garnett
Nash
From here on out it gets confusing... Dirk isnt that great to me. He is nice offensive weapon thats about it. He has too many limitations to his game to consider him top 5.
[quote]He has too many limitations to his game to consider him top 5.[/quote]
Agreed.
[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Because it was based on when he's healthy, of course.[/QUOTE]
he was healthy in this years playoffs...that is why he played
If Dirk had Amare he probably wouldnt be the best player on the Mavs. Lets get real for a second. Dirk has Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Now those two arent worthy? Amare doesnt make Nash better....Nash has performed WELL without Amare. We've yet to see the reverse over a significant period of time. And Amare if anything has benefitted from Nash prescence via the pick n roll. Thats not saying Amare is stuck on stupid without Nash and cant score. Just that we dont know how he could handle the situation without a PG like Nash ie one who looks to get him the ball. Can Amare do it? Probably, some feel he can others are leary.
With Nash there is no question of how he produces without Amare. He won MVP. You wanna take the award away? Fine have it, give it to whomever. But he still proved he can get the job done without Amare. So this triple teamed BS is hilarious because how often does Dirk get tripled teamed? Sit there and think because the TRUTH of the matter is Dirk SOLD OUT vs a team of midgets. Dirk is the one who couldnt capatilze on mismatches. Dirk is the one who found himself not being able to post up a smaller defender. Dirk is the one who shot under 40% FG making Allen Iverson look like MJ in efficiency. Mofos DOG AI and his FG% yet a 7 foot, known shooter named Dirk shoots 38% for the series (6gms)? He shot 21% from downtown (4-19)?
But chalk it up to him being tripled team right? Why didnt everyone in the league think of defending Dirk like GSW did during the 82gm season. :rolleyes:
F*ck outta here. D.Wade was always ranked over Dirk on my top 5.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]he was healthy in this years playoffs...that is why he played[/QUOTE]
Healthy? The man dislocated his shoulder. He wasn't 100% at all after it. He needed surgery. It was like playing on a bandaged broken leg. You get used to it, but it still denies you the chance to play at your best.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the Heat had a losing record when Wade got injured....and then Shaq brought them back up.[/QUOTE]
They were at .500 when Wade got injured. The Heat picked up the pase and went 16-8 while Wade was injured. Shaq led the way for the most part while Wade was out but to suggest that he's soley responsible for the Heat makeing the playoffs is ignortant not to mention ridiculous because you're completly discounting the games that Shaq missed which was more than half the season.
1.Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Nash
5. Wade
[QUOTE=Richie2k6]I hope you're not implying he hasn't proven he's top 5 worthy.[/quote]
He didn't prove it that to me this season.
[quote]Well of course right now Dirk > Wade, because Wade's injured. That's easy. But when Wade is healthy, he's the better player.[/QUOTE]
I respectfully disagree. In the 2006-2007 season Dwayne Wade didn't demonstrate to me that he was a top 5 player over Dirk. If he played the whole season maybe he would've proven that, but since he wasn't there to prove it, I'd give Dirk the nod over him.
Look at it this way. What did Dwayne Wade do [I]this season[/I] to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk? For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]he was healthy in this years playoffs...that is why he played[/QUOTE]
you could tell he wasnt healthy..he was a full step to low and finishing below the rim and not exploding....
[QUOTE=GOBB][B]If Dirk had Amare he probably wouldnt be the best player on the Mavs. [/B][/QUOTE]
you're a fool....Dirk would have countless wide open shots and would be in the running for a scoring title.
[QUOTE=GOBB]But chalk it up to him being tripled team right? [B]Why didnt everyone in the league think of defending Dirk like GSW did during the 82gm series[/B]. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
because GS is the only team that plays small ball....they don't play with a center, they play with 2 guards and 3 forwards...they left Damp/Diop alone and tripled up on Dirk...other teams don't have that ability...
now I am not saying that Dirk didn't have a bad series, but there are legit reasons that GS gave Dirk much more problems that other teams...
[QUOTE=Young HkM]He didn't prove it that to me this season.
I respectfully disagree. In the 2006-2007 season Dwayne Wade didn't demonstrate to me that he was a top 5 player over Dirk. If he played the whole season maybe he would've proven that, but since he wasn't there to prove it, I'd give Dirk the nod over him.
Look at it this way. What did Dwayne Wade do [I]this season[/I] to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk? For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.[/QUOTE]
it doesnt have to be over Dirk...Dirk isnt a top 5 player because he has disqualified himself by getting owned by D-Wade and GS...Your 7 foot and cant post up Monta Ellis...Come ON!!!!
I told yall before when he couldnt post up Steve Nash something was up...Dirk is soft like CHARMIN...Wade wipes his *** with him, and so does Stephen Jackson.
[QUOTE=Free]They were at .500 when Wade got injured. The Heat picked up the pase and went 16-8 while Wade was injured. Shaq led the way for the most part while Wade was out but to suggest that he's soley responsible for the Heat makeing the playoffs is ignortant not to mention ridiculous because you're completly discounting the games that Shaq missed which was more than half the season.[/QUOTE]
still, you just proved that it was Shaq that had to dig the team out of the hole without the help of Wade...they wouldn't have even made the playoofs without Shaq
[quote]He didn't prove it that to me this season. [/quote]
Well I was obviously referring to, you know, when he's capabple of playing his best.
[quote]In the 2006-2007 season Dwayne Wade didn't demonstrate to me that he was a top 5 player over Dirk.[/quote]
For reasons I already stated.
[quote]What did Dwayne Wade do this season to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk?[/quote]
This season alone? He hasn't been top 5 material. Not to make excuses, but because of the sole purpose that he was nursing a severe shoulder injury.
[quote]It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.[/quote]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]you're a fool....Dirk would have countless wide open shots and would be in the running for a scoring title.
because GS is the only team that plays small ball....they don't play with a center, they play with 2 guards and 3 forwards...they left Damp/Diop alone and tripled up on Dirk...other teams don't have that ability...
now I am not saying that Dirk didn't have a bad series, but there are legit reasons that GS gave Dirk much more problems that other teams...[/QUOTE]
Please explain to me then while 1 on 1...Stephen Jackson throw his shot off the backboard 3 times...Why he passed up shots...why he couldnt post up Monta Ellis..
Dirk wasnt triple teamed......Dirk was exposed..
[QUOTE=-primetime-]still, you just proved that it was Shaq that had to dig the team out of the hole without the help of Wade...they wouldn't have even made the playoofs without Shaq[/QUOTE]
And they wouldn't have made the playoffs without Wade.
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]it doesnt have to be over Dirk...Dirk isnt a top 5 player because he has disqualified himself by getting owned by D-Wade and GS...Your 7 foot and cant post up Monta Ellis...Come ON!!!!
I told yall before when he couldnt post up Steve Nash something was up...Dirk is soft like CHARMIN...Wade wipes his *** with him, and so does Stephen Jackson.[/QUOTE]
It's not really about Dirk though, it's the idea that a player that failed to prove himself in the 2006-07 season but still manages to make my top 5.
[QUOTE=Young HkM]
Look at it this way. [B][SIZE="3"]What did Dwayne Wade do [I]this season[/I] to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk?[/SIZE][/B] For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.[/QUOTE]
this is all that needs to be said...
no everone go back to your lists and take Wade out
[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]
I told yall before when he couldnt post up Steve Nash something was up...Dirk is soft like CHARMIN...[B]Wade wipes his *** with him[/B], and so does Stephen Jackson.[/QUOTE]
Wade doesn't wipe his own ass, the refs do that for him
[quote]you're a fool....Dirk would have countless wide open shots and would be in the running for a scoring title.[/quote]
Open shots? Are you insane? That's like leaving Pippen open all night long because you're busy guarding Jordan. You don't let a 7 foot MVP sniper have open shots all night long, ever. No defense is stupid enough to leave Dirk, a franchise player, open for any circumstance.
[quote]because GS is the only team that plays small ball....they don't play with a center, they play with 2 guards and 3 forwards...they left Damp/Diop alone and tripled up on Dirk...other teams don't have that ability...[/quote]
And being the normal, one-sided Dirk he is, he chose to shoot jumpshots over "midgets", in reference to Charles Barkley's description. What did Barkley say Dirk had to do to win? "Get them on the block, post'em up and punish those midgets." What did Dirk do? Get them on the arc, jump up and shoot the ball. He didn't attack the rim much at all. He let small players get to him. He attacks the rim more, though still not enough, against big men, but is scared and settles for jumpshots against midgets? I'm confused.
[quote]now I am not saying that Dirk didn't have a bad series, but there are legit reasons that GS gave Dirk much more problems that other teams...[/quote]
Because they swarmed him and Dirk DECIDED to shoot all day. He wasn't forced to. That's just his nature - settles for jumpers with his one-sided game play style. Turn around, fadeaway. Post up, fadeaway, pump fake, fade away, once in a while go in for a layup. Otherwise he's pretty much shooting all day unless he gets easy looks to the rim. That's another reason why he isn't a top 5 player. His game is far too one dimensional. He's a big man that plays like a guard, and everybody knows that big men that shoot all day and don't dominate in the post never win.
[quote]still, you just proved that it was Shaq that had to dig the team out of the hole without the help of Wade...they wouldn't have even made the playoofs without Shaq[/quote]
Okay? And? Shaq is the second option on offense - it was his JOB to carry them.
[quote]Wade doesn't wipe his own ass, the refs do that for him[/quote]
Oh be quiet about "the refs" and the Finals stuff. This is all coming from the mouth of a [b]Mavericks fan.[/b] :rolleyes: Wade > Dirk. Simple. Wade attacks the rim like crazy is why he got so many calls. Sure, some of them were just flat out bad, but he still deserved many of the calls. This always happens. Who ever averages more FT attempts or gets to the line most always get criticized for "cheating". Stupid is all it is.
[QUOTE=Young HkM]It's not really about Dirk though, it's the idea that a player that failed to prove himself in the 2006-07 season but still manages to make my top 5.[/QUOTE]
If we were discussing the players with the top 5 seasons, I wouldn't put Wade in the top 5, he probably wouldn't be in the top 20 becuase he didn't play enough games. But in this case we're discussing the top 5 players which implies not only performance but ability. I won't write off an injured, player especially in this case becuaes there's a strong possiblity he'll recover and be back to his old self next year. There were no signs of Wade declining as a player, in fact he was having probably the best season as an individual prior to his injury.
[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Open shots? Are you insane? That's like leaving Pippen open all night long because you're busy guarding Jordan. You don't let a 7 foot MVP sniper have open shots all night long, ever. No defense is stupid enough to leave Dirk, a franchise player, open for any circumstance.
[/QUOTE]
I wasn't saying that he would be left ungaurded...i was saying that with a center like Amare that teams wouldn't be able to double or triple team him the way that GS did
1. Duncan
2. Kobe/Bron
3. Kobe/Bron
4. Garnett
5. Wade/Nash
I would take Wade and Nash over Dirk but I can see why people would take Dirk. I just don't think that Dirk is a top 5 player. He is the definition of soft. He fades away in critical times. He can't handle pressure. Thos are the reasons Dirk isn't in my top 5.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]I wasn't saying that he would be left ungaurded...i was saying that with a center like Amare that teams wouldn't be able to double or triple team him the way that GS did[/QUOTE]
You said he would get tons of open shots and be in the run for a scoring title. I don't see how you can have open shots and not be unguarded.
[QUOTE=Free]If we were discussing the players with the top 5 seasons, I wouldn't put Wade in the top 5, he probably wouldn't be in the top 20 becuase he didn't play enough games. But in this case we're discussing the top 5 players which implies not only performance but ability. I won't write off an injured, player especially in this case becuaes there's a strong possiblity he'll recover and be back to his old self next year. There were no signs of Wade declining as a player, [B]in fact he was having probably the best season as an individual prior to his injury[/B].[/QUOTE]
the team was below .500
[QUOTE=Richie2k6]You said he would get tons of open shots and be in the run for a scoring title. I don't see how you can have open shots and not be unguarded.[/QUOTE]
by beating the [B]ONE[/B] guy that is guarding you
[QUOTE=-primetime-]the team was below .500[/QUOTE]
Dude, read. It said AS AN INDIVIDUAL.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]by beating the [B]ONE[/B] guy that is guarding you[/QUOTE]
What does Amare have to do with that? What, will he draw double teams? That doesn't mean they'll leave Dirk. They'll just leave someone else.
Either way, Dirk will not get a sifficient amount of "open shots" and will never win a scoring title. With Melo, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Kobe, McGrady, Iverson, etc, he has no chance.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]the team was below .500[/QUOTE]
Yes, but team wins is only one factor you look at when determining a list of top 5. If you used that criteria, Garnett wouldn't even be in the top 20-30
I'm done defending Dirk and the Mavs. In fact, the more i think about it, I'm tired of their act and don't know if I could even consider myself a Mavs fan anymore. So many things about that team I don't like.
And there's no defending Dirk's playoffs either. You Mavs fans would like the world to believe that the double team is some illegal tactic that was just invented this yr to stop Dirk, or even that Dirk was doubled every time he touched the ball.
They swarmed him like that the first game, then the effect it had on Dirk mentally just lingered. 4 times he was in the post, the real post, iso'd against Stephen Jackson. 1 time he spinned off him and made a layup. The other 3 SJax mollywhopped his shot off the backboard.
Furthermore, he has a defeatist attitude which you never want to see in a leader i.e "If we lose this game [potentially the 3rd L in a 4 L series], the season's over" or the "I'm making what they're giving me, I just can't do much" type quote or the "Avery wants me to get a post game, I'll work on it but it's never going to be a strong point of my game" type quotes.
[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Dude, read. It said AS AN INDIVIDUAL.[/QUOTE]
yes, and that INDIVIDUAL could lead his team to wins like Lebron or Kobe
[QUOTE=-primetime-]yes, and that INDIVIDUAL could lead his team to wins like Lebron or Kobe[/QUOTE]
Oh God.
Individual as in person accolades. MVP, scoring title, career number averages, all-NBA selections, etc.
Not championships, winning percentages, etc. Those are team accolades.
[QUOTE=Richie2k6][B]What does Amare have to do with that? [/B]What, will he draw double teams? That doesn't mean they'll leave Dirk. They'll just leave someone else.
[/QUOTE]
since Damp/Diop don't know how to score nobody has to worry about gaurding them...that frees up a player to focus on Dirk...GS left Damp/Diop all alone, Avery knew this would be a problem and decided to not even play them half the time...
If Dirk had an Amare type player then other teams would have to worry about the paint and that would give Dirk more outside shots...teams just don't have to worry about Damp/Diop becuase they can't score worth a sh-it.
[QUOTE=-primetime-]now if only Dirk had an Amare to keep him from being triple teamed...[/QUOTE]
same with KG buddy...if only he had someone to take away the triple teams...at least dirk has j-ho and jet
[QUOTE=Richie2k6]
Not championships, winning percentages, etc. Those are team accolades.[/QUOTE]
well you certainly don't use that as an excuse for Wade winning with Shaq...
all I am saying is that Wade may have been having a good year number wise but his team was losing without shaq's help....numbers aren't everything.
[quote]that frees up a player to focus on Dirk[/quote]
When people double team Iverson, they don't leave Melo open, or vice-versa. They're a double team offensive threat, like Dirk and Amare would be. When you double team one of the team, your second task is to make sure the other offensive threat can't get easy points. You don't double team Iverson and guard Camby while Melo is easily waltzing his way into the paint for an easy layup. You guard who is the biggest offensive threat, in order.
[quote]If Dirk had an Amare type player then other teams would have to worry about the paint and that would give Dirk more outside shots...[/quote]
Which he loves, right? Shooting. He looooooooves shooting. He loves it enough to shoot over 6"8 players rather than post them up to the rim.
No point in even talking about this anyway. Enough "If Dirk had Amare" stuff. He doesn't have Amare. That's a fact. "What ifs" don't mean anything.
[QUOTE=MK2V1GP]same with KG buddy...if only he had someone to take away the triple teams...at least dirk has j-ho and jet[/QUOTE]
i would trade Dirk for KG....just so you know
[quote]well you certainly don't use that as an excuse for Wade winning with Shaq...[/quote]
:rolleyes:
[quote]all I am saying is that Wade may have been having a good year number wise but his team was losing without shaq's help....numbers aren't everything.[/quote]
He had good personal accomplishments, and sub-par team accomplishments. And I wasn't just referring to his numbers. He was playing the best ball of his life, aside from the Finals.