Charles Barkley says the NBA lies about player heights, so does DraftExpress:

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/sports/basketball/22score.html[/url]

The Important Bits:

[QUOTE=New York Times]

How many times have you heard or read that a basketball player is listed at, say, 6 feet 8 inches but that he is really closer to 6-6? Do you ever wonder how something as objective as height can be in doubt, especially for elite players?

Well as long as everybody gets to exaggerate their height in a equal manner it

[url]http://www.draftexpress.com/article/A-Historical-Look-at-the-NBA-Pre-Draft-Measurements-2912/[/url]

The full explanation from the Draft Express

[QUOTE=Draft Express]At the annual pre-draft camp we find out how big players really are. Prior to a few weeks ago the only measurements available were from this decade, but the recent 90

They Listed With Shoes - Charles 6-6 With Shoes No Doubt

[QUOTE=Vienceslav][B]Well as long as everybody gets to exaggerate their height in a equal manner it

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Oh god, please tell me that was sarcasm :lol[/QUOTE]
Duh.:banana:

very interesting read....

Height doesn't mean as much now a days...Wingspan has been a big advantage for players...

Boston has been able to start Bradley and Rondo(Rondo 6'1 and Bradley 6'2) because they have wingspans of a 6'6- 6'7 player with great athletiscm.

Wade is more like 6'3 1/2 but the dude plays 6'7.

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]Well as long as everybody gets to exaggerate their height in a equal manner it

[QUOTE=dunksby]Actually KD insisted on being measured barefooted, now please proceed to GTFO. :durantunimpressed:[/QUOTE]
It begins!:cheers: :roll:

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]It begins!:cheers: :roll:[/QUOTE]
Here let me post a pic for comparison, I hope the angle is not that questionable for your feeble mind:

[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-118Pd0FOd3U/T2uAPMqX33I/AAAAAAAAA3E/6BmVhT-Ulvs/s1600/jack-nicholson-sticking-finger-flipping-bird.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/sports/basketball/22score.html[/url]

The Important Bits:



(continuing...)[/QUOTE]

In America everything has to get bigger and better every year or you failed. I never did understand the logic of corporate-America; it has actually destroyed some great companies.

Heights haven't changed much at all in the 45 years I've been watching the NBA, except that forwards are taller and guards are slightly smaller.

People say "there's more 7 footers in the league today therefore so and so couldn't make it in today's league." Or whatever. Which is almost pure corporate-America logic. In the NBA, a player can either get it done, or he can't; height has little impact on the world class athletes. There's more teams so naturally, there are more players, of all sizes.

On average though it's the same it has always been, it's simply the players lying about their height to get a payday. And then they have to support the lies the rest of their careers.

I think one of the primary issues about height is the standard with which we measure all heights. It seems through time, whether this is right or wrong, it has been a player's "height in shoes" that has prevailed in media guides and high school basketball programs. I don't find that to be much of an issue as long as its consistent with how other players are being measured as well. For the most part, that seems to be the case. For instance, in shoes, perhaps Charles Barkley is 6'6'' and in shoes, Dennis Rodman is 6'7'' (as they're both listed). This would mean barefoot, Barkley would likely be closer to 6'5'' and Rodman 6'6''. It's still telling me there's only a one inch difference between those two players, regardless of their overall total. That's really all I need to know.

The real issue for me would come in if it became clear half of the players were going by barefoot heights and the other half were going by "shoes" height. In that case, if Barkley was going by his barefoot height (6'5'') and Rodman went with his shoes height (6'7''), things become a lot more misleading. However, over the years, it seems a large majority (if not [i]very[/i] large majority) of NBA, college, and high school players go by the "shoes" height, so there's still likely general uniformity in that regard.

What that means is that it's likely always possible to see a guy like Al-Farouq Aminu (listed at 6'9'') and say, "Man, wow, he's great. He's not even a legit 6'9''. He's more like 6'7''." And there'd be some truth to that, as his barefoot measurement is 6'7''.25 (while his shoes height is 6'8''.50) but we could just as well likely say that about every single player in the NBA.

So sure, Chuck Barkley might not be a legit 6'6'', but Ben Wallace isn't a legit 6'9'', and David Robinson may not have been a legit barefoot 7'1'', or Chauncey Billups a legit barefoot 6'3''. Due to the shoe height, I'd figure most everyone has an inch or so added to their heights. For me personally, I don't find this a revelation or an area of concern. Barefoot, I'm a smidge below 6'3''. With shoes, I'm a legit 6'4''. Depending on what realm of comparison is being used, I'll refer to one or the other.

[QUOTE=dunksby]Here let me post a pic for comparison, I hope the angle is not that questionable for your feeble mind:

[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-118Pd0FOd3U/T2uAPMqX33I/AAAAAAAAA3E/6BmVhT-Ulvs/s1600/jack-nicholson-sticking-finger-flipping-bird.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Durant is 7ft tall!:applause:

[QUOTE=thelucifer69][B]They Listed With Shoes[/B] - Charles 6-6 With Shoes No Doubt[/QUOTE]

No, read the articles. Shoe heights to justify/extrapolate listed heights is acknowledged as nothing but "Flawed Logic" in the eyes of draftexpress. Their players often show up to camps wearing shoes that are larger than shoes they'll ever play in, and a players in-shoes height [I]still[/I] holds no merit in ultimately determining a list height. Dwight Howard, 6'9, 6'10.25 in shoes, 6'11 listed height?... Hmmm my math teachers always told me to round down if the decimal is below 0.5, does the NBA not know simple math?, or do they simply not give a f*ck about shoe heights because that isn't even the point?




And Barkley's shoes in the early 80's when he was a freshman in college when they pegged him at 6-6 were certainly [I]not[/I] 1 inch in thickness. Shoes of that kind of thickness were not being seen until the mid 1980's, shoes were very thin prior to the huge high-top Nike era.

[IMG]http://730foxsports.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/charles-barkley1.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=PP34Deuce]very interesting read....

Height doesn't mean as much now a days...Wingspan has been a big advantage for players...

Boston has been able to start Bradley and Rondo(Rondo 6'1 and Bradley 6'2) because they have wingspans of a 6'6- 6'7 player with great athletiscm.

Wade is more like 6'3 1/2 but the dude plays 6'7.[/QUOTE]

Wade is 6'3 3/4" (6'5" in shoes). He has a 6'11" wingspan.

Ok so this was not the case in the good old days, but it is now , anyway i feel the more relevant measurement is wing span , standing reach and shoulder height , someone with long ass neck will have 1 more in and what is that going to prove?Most people in real life are deluded about their own height anyway.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I think one of the primary issues about height is the standard with which we measure all heights. [B]It seems through time, whether this is right or wrong, it has been a player's "height in shoes" that has prevailed in media guides and high school basketball programs. I don't find that to be much of an issue as long as its consistent with how other players are being measured as well.[/B] [B]For the most part, that seems to be the case.[/B] For instance, in shoes, perhaps Charles Barkley is 6'6'' and in shoes, Dennis Rodman is 6'7'' (as they're both listed). This would mean barefoot, Barkley would likely be closer to 6'5'' and Rodman 6'6''. It's still telling me there's only a one inch difference between those two players, regardless of their overall total. That's really all I need to know.

The real issue for me would come in if it became clear half of the players were going by barefoot heights and the other half were going by "shoes" height. In that case, if Barkley was going by his barefoot height (6'5'') and Rodman went with his shoes height (6'7''), things become a lot more misleading. However, over the years, it seems a large majority (if not [i]very[/i] large majority) of NBA, college, and high school players go by the "shoes" height, so there's still likely general uniformity in that regard.

What that means is that it's likely always possible to see a guy like Al-Farouq Aminu (listed at 6'9'') and say, "Man, wow, he's great. He's not even a legit 6'9''. He's more like 6'7''." And there'd be some truth to that, as his barefoot measurement is 6'7''.25 (while his shoes height is 6'8''.50) but we could just as well likely say that about every single player in the NBA.

So sure, Chuck Barkley might not be a legit 6'6'', but Ben Wallace isn't a legit 6'9'', and David Robinson may not have been a legit barefoot 7'1'', or Chauncey Billups a legit barefoot 6'3''. Due to the shoe height, I'd figure most everyone has an inch or so added to their heights. For me personally, I don't find this a revelation or an area of concern. Barefoot, I'm a smidge below 6'3''. With shoes, I'm a legit 6'4''.[/QUOTE]

This has never been consistent by any definition of the word. Players don't list their height by shoes, they just lie about their height and when questioned they can simply fall back on "it's my height in shoes" as an excuse. Read the articles, they say that directly. Shoe heights are by no means a consistently used or accurate means of player measurement. No 2 shoes a player swaps throughout his career are every going to be precisely the same thickness to begin with. Your height is your height. And your "shoe height" isn't even going to determine your NBA, or NCAA, or even High School. List height is literally just whatever height you and/or your agent want to you to be listed at to attract the attention of fans or scouts.

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]Durant is 7ft tall!:applause:[/QUOTE]
Show me a source where it says Durant is 7ft? Y! says 6-9 DraftExpress says 6-9, FIBA says 6-9, NBA.com says 6-9. So going by a scale of 1 to Bladers, how full of shit are you?

Scouts can tell how tall you are. Plus some players play taller than they are (chuck), and some play shorter

Some of the High Schoolers and teenager players grew a couple of centimeters after being measured in the NBA Pre Draft Camp.

Kevin Garnett 6'11" to 6'11 3/4"

LeBron James 6'7.25" to 6'8"

Kevin Durant 6'9" to 6'10"/6'10.25"

Andrew Bynum 7'0.25" to 7'1"

Chris Bosh 6'10.25" to 6'11"

[QUOTE=Lebron23]Some of the NBA teenage players grew [B]a couple of centimeters or few inches [/B]after being measured in the NBA Pre Draft Camp.

Kevin Garnett 6'11" to 6'11 3/4"

LeBron James 6'7.25" to 6'8"

Kevin Durant 6'9" to 6'10"/6'10.5"

Andrew Bynum 7'0.25" to 7'1"[/QUOTE]
A couple of centimeters and a few inches are very different.

[QUOTE=dunksby]Show me a source where it says Durant is 7ft? Y! says 6-9 DraftExpress says 6-9, FIBA says 6-9, NBA.com says 6-9. So going by a scale of 1 to Bladers, how full of shit are you?[/QUOTE]
I don

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]I don

[QUOTE=Lebron23]Some of the High schoolers and teenager players grew a couple of centimeters or few inches after being measured in the NBA Pre Draft Camp.

Kevin Garnett 6'11" to 6'11 3/4"

LeBron James 6'7.25" to 6'8"

Kevin Durant 6'9" to 6'10"/6'10.25"

Andrew Bynum 7'0.25" to 7'1"

Chris Bosh 6'10.25" to 6'11"[/QUOTE]

There's no doubt many players can grow after 18/19 years of age, however cite this kind of stuff or it lacks credibility. Key words you need to look for are "measured" and "bare feet" and the Red Flags are public statements from the NBA or NBA team.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]This has never been consistent by any definition of the word. Players don't list their height by shoes, they just lie about their height and when questioned they can simply fall back on "it's my height in shoes" as an excuse. Read the articles, they say that directly. Shoe heights are by no means a consistently used or accurate means of player measurement. No 2 shoes a player swaps throughout his career are every going to be precisely the same thickness to begin with. Your height is your height. And your "shoe height" isn't even going to determine your NBA, or NCAA, or even High School. List height is literally just whatever height you and/or your agent want to you to be listed at to attract the attention of fans or scouts.[/QUOTE]
I may have to ask, with sincerity, what is the driving issue here? I'm honestly not asking to be a punk, I'm just legitimately wondering what it is about this clearly imperfect measurement process that draws an issue with you? Is it that teams often must draft players they think are one size but are not really? Or is it just the principle of the matter and general lack of uniformity?

If the issue is teams not being able to draw legitimate conclusions about players these days (though they are now listed twice - with shoes and without shoes), I'd have to agree with other posters who suggest wingspan and standing reach may be equally as important, if not more so. As such, teams must not only rely on height statistics.

Otherwise, as mentioned prior, I'm not sure it's a revelation to anyone that the NBA has historically provided official heights without using an uniform measuring stick, so to speak. Throughout culture, height always seems to be subject to variables. College and high school listings can be just as inconsistent. Most folks can see a listed height of 6'7'' and assume it's generally going to be in that range. In the long run, it's not too big of an issue. Charles Barkley was nasty. It doesn't make any difference to me whether he did it at 6'6'' or 6'4''.75. Awesome is awesome.

Shaq's measures, Wow. He had nearly every advantage possible. And he had a pretty good touch - no range and good passing ability. I make a big deal about the 31 point threshold and how insistent it is - wild that even Shaq is subject to it when he was close to breaking the threshold. Interesting is Amare Stoudamire whose advantage seems only to be quickness and athleticism - I imagine he must have a long reach, can get to the 26 ppg (I should add coordination being that Kenyon Martin lacks that quality and has a similar build).

Do you all see DH as having the same superior qualities over the other centers as Shaq had - so-be-it to a lesser degree? Considering we realize that DH is measuring among the tallest in reach.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]There's no doubt many players can grow after 18/19 years of age, however cite this kind of stuff or it lacks credibility. Key words you need to look for are "measured" and "bare feet" and the Red Flags are public statements from the NBA or NBA team.[/QUOTE]


LeBron looks 4.25" taller than Wade.

[url]http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100882?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532[/url]

[url]http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100881?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532[/url]

[url]http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100888?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532[/url]

[QUOTE=Lebron23]LeBron looks 4.25" taller than Wade.

[url]http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100882?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532[/url]

[url]http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100881?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532[/url]

[url]http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwyane-wade-and-lebron-james-of-the-miami-heat-poses-for-news-photo/138100888?esource=linkconn&aid=39902&asid=94532[/url][/QUOTE]

I think lebron is a legit 6'8 and small change. Ive seen him next to Carmelo and melo is a legit 6'7.

Everyone knows Wade is like 6'3 and change. he's shorter than Kobe who's like 6'5 and change.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I may have to ask, with sincerity, what is the driving issue here? I'm honestly not asking to be a punk, I'm just legitimately wondering what it is about this clearly imperfect measurement process that draws an issue with you? Is it that teams often must draft players they think are one size but are not really? Or is it just the principle of the matter and general lack of uniformity?

If the issue is teams not being able to draw legitimate conclusions about players these days (though they are now listed twice - with shoes and without shoes), I'd have to agree with other posters who suggest wingspan and standing reach may be equally as important, if not more so. As such, teams must not only rely on height statistics.

Otherwise, as mentioned prior, I'm not sure it's a revelation to anyone that the NBA has historically provided official heights without using an uniform measuring stick, so to speak. Most folks can see a listed height of 6'7'' and assume it's generally going to be in that range. In the long run, it's not too big of an issue. Charles Barkley was nasty. It doesn't make any difference to me whether he did it at 6'6'' or 6'4''.75. Awesome is awesome.[/QUOTE]

Creating awareness. Many oblivious fans insist the league is now stacked with giants who underrate their height when the opposite is true, there is constant chatter between some fans discussion these over inflated numbers and they don't realize actual measurements have been taken for many of these players. Speculative pictures, etc - they're silly when real world measurements are available from draftexpress and international competitions etc. Also, using modern inflated heights as a means to diminish prior era's players who's listed heights actually weren't inflated by the player. And also, even the fans that know the NBA's player heights are inflated are usually unaware that it[I] isn't[/I] consistent, which is why these arguments over who is taller than who even arrises. :confusedshrug:


For example:

Kevin Durant: 6'9, 7'4.5 wingspan
6'9 list height

Dwight Howard: 6'9, 7'4.5 wingspan
6'11 list height

Kevin Love: 6'7.75
6'10 list height


Coincidence that people are convinced Durant is a "7 footer"? He isn't. It just looks that way next to the league's "bigs" that he is clearly equal too in height like Dwight, and even taller than guys like Kevin Love - despite those guys both being listed taller than he is.

And this thread has now been completely derailed by people who've gone into speculation mode again, speculating with the typical grossly inflated crop of numbers seen in every other thread rather than considering that most of these players in question might actually be [I]shorter[/I] than expected :facepalm :roll:

[url]www.draftexpress.com/measurements[/url]

^---- here i'll save you some time, they've already been [I]measured[/I]

[QUOTE=PP34Deuce]I think lebron is a legit 6'8 and small change. Ive seen him next to Carmelo and melo is a legit 6'7.

Everyone knows Wade is like 6'3 and change. he's shorter than Kobe who's like 6'5 and change.[/QUOTE]

Kobe is 6'4 and change. Wade is 6'4 in shoes though.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]And this thread has now been completely derailed by people who've gone into speculation mode :facepalm :roll:

[url]www.draftexpress.com/measurements[/url]

^---- they've been [I]measured[/I][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]LeBron looks [B]4.25"[/B] taller than Wade. [/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown:

Has any one of the folks speculating heights actually read the original post? How players listed heights are pretty much all [SIZE="4"]inflated[/SIZE]?, with only the rarest of exceptions? By rare we're talking maybe half a dozen guys in the entire league. There are [I]measurements[/I] actually recorded on draftexpress.com/measurements and here we still have people assuming most all of the list heights of the NBA's modern stars [I]under[/I]-listed their heights, and that we must compare them standing next to other players (who also inflated their height) in order to determine their real life heights?

:wtf:

:biggums:

Once the ball is up in the air, your listed height doesn't matter. So why worry?

-Smak

[QUOTE=ILLsmak]Once the ball is up in the air, your listed height doesn't matter. So why worry?

-Smak[/QUOTE]

Because (the actual) measurements of NBA players are another stat that can be interesting to analyze, at least IMO. Sure at the end of the day the play on the court is all that matters, but everybody likes to see some stats and numbers to add to discussion

[QUOTE=Rake2204][B]I may have to ask, with sincerity, what is the driving issue here? I'm honestly not asking to be a punk, I'm just legitimately wondering what it is about this clearly imperfect measurement process that draws an issue with you? Is it that teams often must draft players they think are one size but are not really? Or is it just the principle of the matter and general lack of uniformity?[/B]

If the issue is teams not being able to draw legitimate conclusions about players these days (though they are now listed twice - with shoes and without shoes), I'd have to agree with other posters who suggest wingspan and standing reach may be equally as important, if not more so. As such, teams must not only rely on height statistics.

Otherwise, as mentioned prior, I'm not sure it's a revelation to anyone that the NBA has historically provided official heights without using an uniform measuring stick, so to speak. Throughout culture, height always seems to be subject to variables. College and high school listings can be just as inconsistent. Most folks can see a listed height of 6'7'' and assume it's generally going to be in that range. In the long run, it's not too big of an issue. Charles Barkley was nasty. It doesn't make any difference to me whether he did it at 6'6'' or 6'4''.75. Awesome is awesome.[/QUOTE]

I'm only speculating but I would suspect that Cavs has a slight agenda with this thread. He reads voraciously on ISH and finds a common flaw among the younger guys that post on here; namely, the 60s and 70s were filled with short unathletic players.

So, like a good lawyer, he's building a case by providing overwhelming evidence;

* his detailed measurements threads:

Jerry West
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=254467[/url]

Russell, Wilt, Kareem........:
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=257270[/url]

* his hilarious thread showing how the modern athlete has evolved since Michael Jordan's day (all 10 years ago now):

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259723[/url]



and now this thread.... where once again Sir Charles makes David Stern drink the truth without any benefit of this bottle:

[img]http://www.tackletreasures.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/aivarnish2.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=The_Yearning]Kobe is 6'4 and change. Wade is 6'4 in shoes though.[/QUOTE]
I'd say Kobe is a legit 6'5 barefoot. MJ is 6'4.75 and Kobe is slightly taller than Mike. Like a 1/4 inch. He's about 6'6.25-6'6.5 in sneakers.

Wade is a legit 6'5 in shoes. He's 6'3.75 barefoot, and these days almost ALL basketball sneakers are at least 1.25-to 1.5 inches thick in the heel.

I wear size 13, and all my LeBron's, Jordan's and Kobe's are at least that thick in the heel if not thicker. Kobe wears a size 14, so his would be slightly thicker than mine. LeBron wears size 16 in game, so his are AT LEAST an inch and a half. Dwyane Wade wears size 15, so he's adding close to an inch and a half as well.

Dwyane wade is actually built like a guy who is 6'7. He has long legs and arms. Big hands and feet. He just has a small torso in comparison to the rest of his body.

They definitely lie. I played with the UCI players. The guy they listed as 6'9 (Stanislav Zuzak) I clearly could see the top of his head (I'm actually 6'9), and the guy they listed as 7' (Adam Parada) I was as tall as him. He was listed as 7' when he played Pre-season games for the Kings and the Lakers, and is still listed as 7' on his wiki.

[QUOTE=NumberSix][B]I'd say Kobe is a legit 6'5 barefoot. MJ is 6'4.75 and Kobe is slightly taller than Mike.[/B] Like a 1/4 inch. He's about 6'6.25-6'6.5 in sneakers.

Wade is a legit 6'5 in shoes. He's 6'3.75 barefoot, and these days almost ALL basketball sneakers are at least 1.25-to 1.5 inches thick in the heel.

I wear size 13, and all my LeBron's, Jordan's and Kobe's are at least that thick in the heel if not thicker. Kobe wears a size 14, so his would be slightly thicker than mine. LeBron wears size 16 in game, so his are AT LEAST an inch and a half. Dwyane Wade wears size 15, so he's adding close to an inch and a half as well.

Dwyane wade is actually built like a guy who is 6'7. He has long legs and arms. Big hands and feet. He just has a small torso in comparison to the rest of his body.[/QUOTE]

Kobe said in an extensive NY times story about some of his personal life that he wasn't actually sure what his height was for a long time until out of curiosity he had his wife measure him. (I believe the interviewer brought the subject up when jokingly inquiring if he shrunk since he was once listed 6-7, and later changed to 6-6). He said his wife measured him at exactly 6'4 and 3/4.

1992 Olympics - the Olympic committee knew of inflated NBA heights and so measured the players willing to be measured. Jordan was one of them who got measured, he was 6'4 and 7/8ths.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Kobe said in an extensive NY times story about some of his personal life that he wasn't actually sure what his height was for a long time until out of curiosity he had his wife measure him. (I believe the interviewer asked why he was once listed 6-7, and later changed to 6-6). He said his wife measured him at exactly 6'4 and 3/4.

1992 Olympics - the Olympic committee knew of inflated NBA heights and so measured the players willing to be measured. Jordan was one of them who got measured, he was 6'4 and 7/8ths.[/QUOTE]

Interesting to note that 3 of the all-time greatest players are within just a smidgen of each other: Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley, & Michael Jordan.