Originally Posted by joe
Stealing is immoral, correct? And what is stealing? Stealing is to take someones property without their consent. Taxation is even worse than stealing, because it's taking property without consent.. backed up by the threat of violence. Whether you think taxation/government is a positive or negative for society as a whole, is irrelevant when we talk about the morality.
all taxation is not necessarily stealing
and morality is subjective....
if you never use any roads or any of the services?
if you live outside the protection of the police and the fire dept?
Your kid gets home schooled by you with no help?
basically if you are f*ckin hermit? then maybe you can spout off about stealing and some misguided sense of morality..
but otherwise, its just a bunch of nonsense
Does that make government 'evil'? Maybe, but I won't open up that can of worms.
the government is no more evil than a chair or napkin is 'evil'. Its a tool
Its only as good or bad as the people running it.
if the public falls asleep and lets liars and criminals at the controls of our government? then it will reflect those people.
If we let the tools become twisted and rigged for the benefit of a few greedy people? then the government will reflect that
Also if we (as a society) take an interest in our government and take responsibility for you we let into office? you wont have people at the controls anymore.
I'll stick to arguing that it's immoral, which seems to be hard to refute. Unless you disagree that stealing is immoral.
equating taxes & stealing is an argument based on a false premise joe..
to be fair...Im against various forms of taxes as they currently exist. I think they are used to rip off the public and pay the FED for the fiat money they print without our permission.
that doesnt mean I think the idea of taxes as a whole is a bankrupt idea. Some forms of taxation can be very fair.
[quote]I do not want to go live alone in the woods, and I assure you I'm nothing like the unibomber. ;)[/qoute]
So the unarmed people, are to somehow shape the government? May I ask you, which side has the military? Which side has the power to make laws? Which side has the legal right to steal? Which side do corporations want to bribe?
'Arms' arent the only valuable weapon known to man.
If people understood where their power comes from? they would call on it more and work harder to strengthen it.
the weapon of the general public is "COOPERATION"
if people smartened up and stopped playing the game? the people who have all the money and own all the guns would have to listen.
people dont realize that they have been turned from human beings to simple 'resources' in the eyes of many elite 1% types... resources (ike cattle, chicken and turkeys, other foods and products) are simply resources to be used up...
when we start acting like humans again and impress our will on the government? we will stop being treated like resources to be raided for our money and property in any crisis.
The people with the least voice seem to pay the heaviest price.. ever notice that?
like the guy who misses the board meeting... He gets appointed all the sh*t work because he wasnt present at the board meeting to object on his own behalf.
America is the greatest example that shaping the government is impossible. You live here, you should know that. We started with the Articles of Confederation. A few years later the Constitution was created to strengthen federal power. Immediately, the federal government tried to establish a central bank. Within decades, the federal government waged the most bloody war in our history, against individual states. Within 100 years, we had public school and an income tax. Today, just over 200 years later, we have the biggest empire in human history, an executive branch that can start offensive wars and legally assassinate citizens, a national debt that is impossible to pay off, and a social security bubble that will soon pop and leave thousands of people with no retirement funds.
How do you propose the people keep this monster in its cage? Because I don't see it. If the early American ideals weren't good enough.. what would be?
the people stand up to the monster by REFUSING TO COOPERATE ANY LONGER
you dont need guns and a military for that.... All you need is courage.
Thats part of the reason I am dissappointed in your assessment of Occupy Wall Street...
Those are the people who are refusing to cooperate.. They keep pointing the finger at the true criminals while the true criminals trying to point the finger at anyone but themselves...
the tea party has value also when they stick to their financial gripes and work in that arena...
these movements need to work together to rid the government of the criminals and the controls they have created to rig the game in their favor.
the tea party may have some racist elements in it (obviously I loathe that sh*t)... But they also have some very valid points when it comes to their arguments on spending and sound monetary systems
I don't see myself as an individualist at all. Social cooperation is one of the biggest keys to human prosperity, I'd say.
Cooperation is two or more parties, mutually agreeing to take some action. What, didn't 90+% of US citizens not want the bank bailouts? But they happened anyway. A large chunk of the country doesn't support the military budget being so high.. but it keeps getting bigger. Where is the cooperation in this system?
The government is anti-cooperation. Because cooperation ceases to exist when you add violent force to the equation. It's like a boyfriend threatening to beat up his girlfriend if she doesn't do the dishes. If she does the dishes, is that cooperation?
you are looking at the government as it currently exist and acting as if that will always be the nature of any government no matter what...
you know we have thrown out the Central banks before.... it can be done again.
it looks bleak because the public has been asleep since the the late 60s. But it isnt hopeless.
If people want America, they have to fight (and even be willing to die) for it.
the corporations may have bought politicians but they still need us to make this place work and if we stick together? it wont matter if they have guns and military and the bought politicians because they still cannot overcome all of us.