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Old 07-22-2012, 03:29 AM   #145
ShaqAttack3234
7-time NBA All-Star
 
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Shep
yeh, then they traded him and made a conference, made 3 nba finals, and won 2 championships.

Did I ever say that he was a great NBA player? No, I just said he could score. The guy they traded him for(Adrian Dantley) was not only a better scorer, but a significantly better player.

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stockton dominated more games than barkley. and i rate point guards in the correct spot, but you have a history of overrating scorers, especially high scoring point guard.

at Stockton dominating games like Barkley, much less more than him. There are plenty of examples where Stockton's inability or unwillingness to take over games prevented his team from advancing in the playoffs. See 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

What's my history of overrating high scoring point guards? The only one I remember even rating that high is Kevin Johnson from about '89-'94.

Examples of you overrating high assist guys are '82 Magic, Stockton of course, Rajon Rondo(I know you had him pretty high in the top 10 in 2010) and old Mavericks Jason Kidd(wasn't he top 10 on your 2011 list?).

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lol why does "assert" himself mean scoring alot of points? stockton wasn't utah's primary scorer, or even top 2. he was utah's primary set up guy, it was up to the scorers on the team to score points.

That's because Stockton was limited to that role, great at what he did, but it's why he wasn't as good as the true MVP-caliber players who did take over games.

When Utah's primary scorer Karl Malone was struggling in the playoffs(which happened a fair amount), Utah really would have benefited from Stockton stepping up, and the only occasion I really remember this happening was the '97 WCF.

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the guys i mentioned were close to being the best players at their position. stockton had 1 guy near the best at his position, barkley had numerous.

Stockton played with that 1 player throughout his entire prime and beyond, while Malone was in his prime the entire time Stockton was, and beyond. He had a prime that lasted like a decade, he was among the best players in the NBA that whole time.

Playing with 1 isn't worse than changing teams and playing with those guys at various times. Who was the best player Barkley played with in his prime? Kevin Johnson during his worst season from the time he was an elite PG('89-'94)?

I don't think Hersey Hawkins is particularly comparable to Karl Malone.

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drexler put up numbers on a sub .500 team. it is much harder to put up numbers on a almost 60 win team than it is on a almost 40 win team.


I'm not even talking about the numbers anymore. Drexler was clearly the better scorer, rebounder, passer and shooter. Do you deny any of those things?

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and price wasn't even top 3 after the playoffs, daugherty had overtaken him by that stage the greatest player of all time had a legendary series and the series winning field goal. scottie pippen also stepped up his play with 15.0ppg, 8.6rpg, 4.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.8bpg. and horace grant had a huge rebounding series and was great overall, averaging 10.4ppg, 13.0rpg, 2.4apg, 1.2spg, and 1.2bpg.

Pippen didn't even shoot 40% in the series. Neither Pippen or Grant were all-star caliber players by that point. Hell, Grant barely was in his prime, he made 1 on one of the weakest all-star teams ever, and had somewhat of a case for maybe 1 more in '92.

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price was the best player on a team that won 42 games and lost in the first round. porter was the second best player on a team that had the second best record in the nba and made the nba finals. then you take into consideration how much better defensively porter was, then you have an easy decision.

I'll take better passing, shooting and ball-handling over better defense at the PG position. Price's team won 42 games because of Daugherty missing over 40 games, and Nance missing around 20, iirc.

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congrats on being able to see both porter and price play. i too have had the honor of seeing both play. the result of such viewings are that porter was better than price in 1990.

Nah, the result of viewing these guys play is the conclusion that Price was the better player.

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both duncan and garnett should have been final's mvp's tho. if hawkins played like that he would have actually deserved finals mvp.

I'm not sure if KG should have been MVP, he had a case, but I don't feel strongly about any of the big 3 getting finals MVP. I am leaning towards Duncan deserving the '07 award, though.

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lol where is 1982? easily his second best season in the nba. atleast your best season is correct the correct order is actually 1987, 1982, 1991, 1985, 1989.

1982 is between his 9th and 10th best season. After the 5 I mentioned, '85 and '86 are about even and his 6th/7th best seasons, then '84 is clearly next followed by '82 and '83, and he was the same player in both those seasons, so they can be placed in either order.

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barkley was one of them, magic was another one. he averaged career high's in steals and rebounds, was the lakers (and the nba's) best player, led the lakers to 57 wins which was the best record in the west, was the mvp of the playoffs and finals, and had a record of 12-2 in the playoffs en route to the nba championship.

Barkley was not in his prime until 24/25 in the '87-'88 season or 25/26 in the '88-'89 season. Which is around the normal age a player enters their prime. Magic didn't enter his prime until he was 27 in the '86-'87 season, which is also a normal age to

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trash observation here. he was an above average defender.

You may be the first I've heard say that. A great example of Magic's poor defense is the '90 WCSF. They obviously couldn't put them on KJ, so he guarded Hornacek and got torched, which was part of the reason the Suns upset the Lakers in 5 despite Magic averaging 30.

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kareem was easily better than malone, as was bird and erving. magic however, was easily the best player in the league.

Moses was doing things nobody else was capable of at those times, see his month of February when he averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg including 30+ points in 13 of the 14 games that month, 40+ points 6 times that month and 20+ rebounds six times that month.

Moses had a stretch where he had a game of 53 points(19th in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 FG and 15/18 FT followed by 45 points and 20 rebounds and finally, 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 FG and 11/15 FT. 2 games later, he had 38 points and 32 rebounds including 21 offensive rebounds, he outrebounded the entire Sonics team.

Around this time, Malone's dominance led the Rockets to a 13-2 stretch. He had another stretch with 3 straight 40+ games in late February/early March including 43 points and 23 rebounds, 44 points and 43 points(14 in the 4th quarter).

2 games later, he had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining. 3 games later he had 49 points and 12 rebounds including 22 points in the 4th quarter. And he another pair of 40 point games in late March including 41 points and 18 rebounds(12 points in the 4th quarter) followed by 46 points.

This dominant stretch that began when February started really didn't slow down until April. He had a 35 game stretch where he scored at least 30 points in 28 out of those games.

Magic was probably the 4th or 5th best player that season.

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magic took over beginning in 1982

Go ask Pat Riley or Magic himself.

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magic might have had a better post game later on in his career, but he still had a nice post game in 1982.

Nope.

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how many team's have won a championship with a point guard as the best player?

Walt Frazier definitely did it in '73, arguably '70. He was certainly the 1st option by '73, but more 1.A/1.B with Reed in '70, maybe slightly behind. Magic did it in '87 and '88, arguably '85, so he was 1st option for 2 out of his 3 championships as the best player. Isiah did it in '89 and '90, he was the 1st option for both championships.

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it could have been his game. he could have made adjustments to what his game was due to the fact that he would be missing the league's leading scorer.

It's not that easy, Pippen had a lot of talents, but being a 26-28 ppg scorer wasn't really 1 of them, and it wouldn't have necessarily made him more effective than he was playing the great all around ball he was in '94.

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although 82 games is longer than the playoffs, you play the whole season to get in a good position to play in the playoffs and its how you play in those important games, games in which only half of the leagues teams are lucky enough to even partake in, is which will utimately determine your rank.

I agree it matters, but you get more of an idea of what kind of player someone is from the entire season. Raising your game, or declining in the playoffs can impact someone's ranking for my list, but only if they're pretty close as players to begin with, and 1 series doesn't really determine who the better player is.

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he was easily better than steve nash in that regard

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