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Old 07-24-2012, 10:36 AM   #146
Shep
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Did I ever say that he was a great NBA player? No, I just said he could score. The guy they traded him for(Adrian Dantley) was not only a better scorer, but a significantly better player.
the pistons obviously knew if they were to go deeper into the nba playoffs they had to get rid of the deadweight known as tripuke-a.
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at Stockton dominating games like Barkley, much less more than him. There are plenty of examples where Stockton's inability or unwillingness to take over games prevented his team from advancing in the playoffs. See 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.
lol out of those playoffs stockton stepped up his game in 1992, 1994, and 1996 leaving only 1990, 1993, and 1995 as the only seasons where he didn't step up. barkley meanwhile did not step up in:
1987 (disgusting showing in the playoffs, his teams most disappointing player, almost outplayed by mo cheeks)
forget 1988, he did not even make the playoffs
1989 (another disgusting showing, gets outplayed by mo cheeks)
1990 (destroyed in second round)
forget 1992, he did not even make the playoffs
1996 (destroyed by david robinson and the san antonio spurs in the first round)
1997 (almost outplayed by clyde drexler)
1998 (teams most disappointing player, almost outplayed by matt maloney)
1999 (dominated in the first round after winning 62% of all regular season games)
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What's my history of overrating high scoring point guards? The only one I remember even rating that high is Kevin Johnson from about '89-'94.
well you do put a huge emphasis on rating scoring point guards over traditional all-round point guards who are better
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Examples of you overrating high assist guys are '82 Magic, Stockton of course, Rajon Rondo(I know you had him pretty high in the top 10 in 2010) and old Mavericks Jason Kidd(wasn't he top 10 on your 2011 list?).
rondo is 5th in 2010 and kidd is 9th in 2011. nothing wrong with these rankings. rondo is the celtics best player in the regular season and playoffs, including a magic johnson like series against the cleveland cavaliers where he averaged 21/6/12/2 on 54%fg. the celtics make it to game 7 of the nba finals.
kidd, while old, still was the mavericks second best player in the regular season and playoffs. while not having mind blowing numbers, kidd showed leadership, and steady play in dallas's quest to become 2011 nba champions. its not all about stats.
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That's because Stockton was limited to that role, great at what he did, but it's why he wasn't as good as the true MVP-caliber players who did take over games.
stockton was easily more mvp caliber than barkley
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When Utah's primary scorer Karl Malone was struggling in the playoffs(which happened a fair amount), Utah really would have benefited from Stockton stepping up, and the only occasion I really remember this happening was the '97 WCF.
stockton stepped up his game in the playoffs on numerous occasions, such as 1988, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2001 (38 years old), 2002 (39 years old).
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Stockton played with that 1 player throughout his entire prime and beyond, while Malone was in his prime the entire time Stockton was, and beyond. He had a prime that lasted like a decade, he was among the best players in the NBA that whole time.
barkley obviously could not get it done with star players arounds him
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Playing with 1 isn't worse than changing teams and playing with those guys at various times. Who was the best player Barkley played with in his prime? Kevin Johnson during his worst season from the time he was an elite PG('89-'94)?
hakeem olajuwon wasn't good enough?
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I don't think Hersey Hawkins is particularly comparable to Karl Malone.
what about hakeem olajuwon
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I'm not even talking about the numbers anymore. Drexler was clearly the better scorer, rebounder, passer and shooter. Do you deny any of those things?
how many wins did these things get drexler
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Pippen didn't even shoot 40% in the series. Neither Pippen or Grant were all-star caliber players by that point. Hell, Grant barely was in his prime, he made 1 on one of the weakest all-star teams ever, and had somewhat of a case for maybe 1 more in '92.
both pippen and grant stepped up their game in that series.
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I'll take better passing, shooting and ball-handling over better defense at the PG position. Price's team won 42 games because of Daugherty missing over 40 games, and Nance missing around 20, iirc.
i'll take better defense, a player who relishes in attacking the basket rather than shoot over a third of his shots behind the arc, great post up game, and who made the nba finals at the pg position.
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Nah, the result of viewing these guys play is the conclusion that Price was the better player.
actually you are misinformed here, the real outcome is that porter is the worthier choice.
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1982 is between his 9th and 10th best season. After the 5 I mentioned, '85 and '86 are about even and his 6th/7th best seasons, then '84 is clearly next followed by '82 and '83, and he was the same player in both those seasons, so they can be placed in either order.
1987
1982
1991
1985
1989
1988
1983
1990
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Barkley was not in his prime until 24/25 in the '87-'88 season or 25/26 in the '88-'89 season. Which is around the normal age a player enters their prime. Magic didn't enter his prime until he was 27 in the '86-'87 season, which is also a normal age to
so barkley is in his prime when he is missing playoff's over deep playoff runs averaging 25/16/6 and 58% magic isn't even in his prime winning finals mvp's
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You may be the first I've heard say that. A great example of Magic's poor defense is the '90 WCSF. They obviously couldn't put them on KJ, so he guarded Hornacek and got torched, which was part of the reason the Suns upset the Lakers in 5 despite Magic averaging 30.
who is talking about 1990 here
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Moses was doing things nobody else was capable of at those times, see his month of February when he averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg including 30+ points in 13 of the 14 games that month, 40+ points 6 times that month and 20+ rebounds six times that month.

Moses had a stretch where he had a game of 53 points(19th in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 FG and 15/18 FT followed by 45 points and 20 rebounds and finally, 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 FG and 11/15 FT. 2 games later, he had 38 points and 32 rebounds including 21 offensive rebounds, he outrebounded the entire Sonics team.

Around this time, Malone's dominance led the Rockets to a 13-2 stretch. He had another stretch with 3 straight 40+ games in late February/early March including 43 points and 23 rebounds, 44 points and 43 points(14 in the 4th quarter).

2 games later, he had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining. 3 games later he had 49 points and 12 rebounds including 22 points in the 4th quarter. And he another pair of 40 point games in late March including 41 points and 18 rebounds(12 points in the 4th quarter) followed by 46 points.

This dominant stretch that began when February started really didn't slow down until April. He had a 35 game stretch where he scored at least 30 points in 28 out of those games.

Magic was probably the 4th or 5th best player that season.
magic was the best, meanwhile moses was all the way down at the 5 position. moses had a good regular season, and by the end of it was ahead of the likes of erving, and abdul-jabber, but still behind bird, and johnson. his poor playoff showing dropped him down the list, considering he dropped 7 points and a staggering 9 percentage points on field goals, on top of blocking less than a shot per game, and getting beaten in the first round.
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Go ask Pat Riley or Magic himself.
i talk to both with great regularity. we all share the same opinion.
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Nope.

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Walt Frazier definitely did it in '73, arguably '70. He was certainly the 1st option by '73, but more 1.A/1.B with Reed in '70, maybe slightly behind. Magic did it in '87 and '88, arguably '85, so he was 1st option for 2 out of his 3 championships as the best player. Isiah did it in '89 and '90, he was the 1st option for both championships.
so 5 in 60 years?
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It's not that easy, Pippen had a lot of talents, but being a 26-28 ppg scorer wasn't really 1 of them, and it wouldn't have necessarily made him more effective than he was playing the great all around ball he was in '94.
the bulls went from averaging 105ppg to 98ppg in 1994, it would have definately made him and the bulls more effective had he picked up the scoring slack.
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I agree it matters, but you get more of an idea of what kind of player someone is from the entire season. Raising your game, or declining in the playoffs can impact someone's ranking for my list, but only if they're pretty close as players to begin with, and 1 series doesn't really determine who the better player is.
it can definately determine that. we learn how players react to different situations, situations that could have them fishing the next day. with these things in mind we realise what kind of player he really is and is ranked according to these findings.
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