say what?

[diamenz]

With bullshit I've heard a million times from people who have been programmed by the same media you eat up like a good little stooge. Ukraine and Palestine are excellent litmus tests for who is actually thinking for themselves or not. It's not exact but this is a pretty good guide in general

Pro-Ukraine/Pro-Israel: listening to mainstream liberal media

Pro-Russia/Pro-Israel: listening to mainstream conservative media

Pro-Russia/Pro-Palestine: listening to third party conspiracy cranks and/or alternative right wing media, listening to Marxist-Leninist media, or listening to mainstream conservative media but just hates Israel because they associate it with Jews.

Pro-Ukraine/Pro-Palestine: consistently against imperialism and colonialism regardless and thinking for themselves.

i'm against what the netanyahu government is doing in gaza and the west bank. i think it's unacceptable and has little to do with eliminating hamas or rescuing hostages at this point. as a matter of fact, i don't think it can be any more clear that this is now a campaign to create a greater israel and push the threat of the palestinian people in general (along with hamas) out into the sinai. i don't think it does anything to make israel safer in the long-run, is bad for their global relations and can be labeled as ethnic cleansing - some would even argue genocide. we shouldn't support it.

otoh, you know where i stand with regard to the russo-ukrainian war. so where does that put me on the spectum? am i only thinking for myself on one side of the equation and not the other?

[diamenz]

So you just want to speed up the death and destruction of Ukraine and its people. Got it.

we've gone over this. this war is going to go one of two ways. either russia takes eastern ukraine by force and installs a russian-friendly government in kiev ensuring a neutral ukraine or the west comes forth with a settlement stating likewise.

or

we continue to supply ukraine with limited equipment and ammunitions to a dwindling army who's ranks cannot be replaced quick enough to prolong the fight. at that point, biden puts us troops on the ground and we've more or less triggered a global conflict or at the least a war between two nuclear superpowers.

there's no defeating the russian army unless we get involved directly. otherwise, we're only prolonging the inevitable. so what's the sensible move?

[jstern]

we've gone over this. this war is going to go one of two ways. either russia takes eastern ukraine by force and installs a russian-friendly government in kiev ensuring a neutral ukraine or the west comes forth with a settlement stating likewise.

or

we continue to supply ukraine with limited equipment and ammunitions to a dwindling army who's ranks cannot be replaced quick enough to prolong the fight. at that point, biden puts us troops on the ground and we've more or less triggered a global conflict or at the least a war between two nuclear superpowers.

there's no defeating the russian army unless we get involved directly. otherwise, we're only prolonging the inevitable. so what's the sensible move?

You have 6,666 posts. For now.

[diamenz]

You don't know about the immigration bill, do you?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...ext-rcna136602

You said "0 dollars for our border", and I blew down that strawman argument. You retort with "well, it's all a show."

No, it's not. One party decide to play politics in election season even though the bill was written by a Republican conservative. That one party decided to not pass the funding/stricter immigration bill

isn't this the previous bill that's already been shot down? is this what the senate just recently passed to the house a few days ago? this article is dated the 4th of feb.

because i'll admit i was wrong if that's the case. i'll have to take a closer look at it.

[diamenz]

You have 6,666 posts. For now.

[diamenz]

You have 6,666 posts. For now.

i have a ways to go before i catch axe, don't i?

[SATAN]

washington is corrupt and your vote is meaningless.

You're essentially saying there's nothing anyone can do. Both parties are corrupt...But I'll insist on bickering and causing division for one of them.

Dumb

[RRR3]

i'm against what the netanyahu government is doing in gaza and the west bank. i think it's unacceptable and has little to do with eliminating hamas or rescuing hostages at this point. as a matter of fact, i don't think it can be any more clear that this is now a campaign to create a greater israel and push the threat of the palestinian people in general (along with hamas) out into the sinai. i don't think it does anything to make israel safer in the long-run, is bad for their global relations and can be labeled as ethnic cleansing - some would even argue genocide. we shouldn't support it.

otoh, you know where i stand with regard to the russo-ukrainian war. so where does that put me on the spectum? am i only thinking for myself on one side of the equation and not the other?

Apparently you had trouble reading my post.

[diamenz]

Apparently you had trouble reading my post.

no don't generalize me into some hack category of mass groups. because in all modesty, my views and posts regarding both wars have been extensive and thorough, are more than simple talking points and don't represent any group of people you've outlined. if i'm split on the two subjects, then it should be assumed that i'm taking a fair approach to both , which i believe i am because i have genuine interest in seeking the truth.

[RRR3]

no don't generalize me into some hack category of mass groups. because in all modesty, my views and posts regarding both wars have been extensive and thorough, are more than simple talking points and don't represent any group of people you've outlined. if i'm split on the two subjects, then it should be assumed that i'm taking a fair approach to both , which i believe i am because i have genuine interest in seeking the truth.

You literally say the exact same things everyone else I've encountered who consume alternative "third party" media says about the issue. There is literally no difference. The EXACT same things. You keep saying "well because I have inconsistent views I must be thinking for myself" as if these inconsistent views aren't pushed by certain sectors of the media, which I went over already. Just because media isn't mainstream doesn't mean they're not selling you bullshit. The only people I see consistently supporting Palestinian and Ukranian right to self-determination are anarchists and democratic socialists. Liberals, conservatives, conspiracy nuts, Marxist-Leninists, and fascists are all pure shit on one side or the other (if not both). Afaik, I'm the only person on the board who's come down strongly on both of the sides I'm coming down on here too.

[diamenz]

You literally say the exact same things everyone else I've encountered who consume alternative "third party" media says about the issue. There is literally no difference. The EXACT same things. You keep saying "well because I have inconsistent views I must be thinking for myself" as if these inconsistent views aren't pushed by certain sectors of the media, which I went over already. Just because media isn't mainstream doesn't mean they're not selling you bullshit. The only people I see consistently supporting Palestinian and Ukranian right to self-determination are anarchists and democratic socialists. Liberals, conservatives, conspiracy nuts, Marxist-Leninists, and fascists are all pure shit on one side or the other (if not both). Afaik, I'm the only person on the board who's come down strongly on both of the sides I'm coming down on here too.

if this is indeed the case, then what makes the media you consume any more credible than mine? especially given the fact that you aren't split; you're pro-p / pro-uk. the typical libtard position. look no further than a san fran soccer mom for that pov.

what matters is what you bring to the table here on this forum and how well you make your case. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the conflict in the ME - you've showcased knowledge on that issue, whether i fully agree with you or not.

otoh, i haven't seen the same from you with regard to the war in ukraine. i've seen nothing but biden-admin / liberal mainstream media talking points from you. "invaded a soverign nation unprovoked". " putin man bad" etc. why should that lend your argument any credibility?

[RRR3]

if this is indeed the case, then what makes the media you consume any more credible than mine? especially given the fact that you aren't split; you're pro-p / pro-uk. the typical libtard position. look no further than a san fran soccer mom for that pov.

what matters is what you bring to the table here on this forum and how well you make your case. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the conflict in the ME - you've showcased knowledge on that issue, whether i agree with you or not.

otoh, i haven't seen the same from you with regard to the war in ukraine. i've seen nothing but biden-admin / liberal mainstream media talking points from you. "invaded a soverign nation unprovoked". " putin man bad" etc. why should that lend your argument any credibility?

No liberal wants to abolish the state of Israel or denies it's right to exist. I do. Liberals might oppose the genocide but they had no issue with Israel before Netanyahu started doing what he's doing. I did, I could show you my twitter where I have been shitting on Israel for years but I'm not about to doxx myself.

So you think I'm smart when I agree with you and dumb when I don't, what a shocker. Biden doesn't give a shit about Ukraine, he just doesn't want Rusisa to gain any more power. Giving aid to Ukraine isn't out of the goodness of his heart, but he'll say it is for points, sure. I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe the US can't be on the right side of an issue for the wrong reasons. This stuff happens all the time, it's why you see a shitty ass theocracy like Iran supporting Palestine. By your logic, I should oppose Palestine because Iran is horrible. But I don't really care if shitty people agree with me on an issue, that's always going to happen. Every single core belief I have are also believed by some shitty people. The issue is when you start changing your views because a few idiots agree with you. Think for yourself.

Could Biden be sending all the money he is to Ukraine if it was up to me? No, because he'd be sending money to Palestine and lots of other countries facing similar situations as well. And he would be giving people healthcare, legalizing weed, abolishing the police and prison, etc. "But who will protect us" I'm sure you'll say. Well get a gun and protect yourself, you don't need the state. But the act of aiding Ukraine isn't bad, giving aid to people who need it is good. Is Biden doing it for altruistic reasons? Of course not he's evil as shit. His geopolitical interests just happened to be on the same side as the morally correct position, it's purely a coincidence. In a similar situation in Palestine where his interests were on the other side, he showed zero consistency.

[jstern]

i have a ways to go before i catch axe, don't i?

I didn't want to mention him, because he's dragging me into so many back and a forths and if I mention his name he's going to enter this thread, but my initial thought was that it took diamenz almost 12 years to reach 6,666 post, and Axe had already beaten that number in around 7 months. It even took RRR3 over a year to beat that number, yet Axe, 7 months or so.

[Axe]

i have a ways to go before i catch axe, don't i?

Hey, stay on your topic please. Ty.

[diamenz]

No liberal wants to abolish the state of Israel or denies it's right to exist. I do. Liberals might oppose the genocide but they had no issue with Israel before Netanyahu started doing what he's doing. I did, I could show you my twitter where I have been shitting on Israel for years but I'm not about to doxx myself.

So you think I'm smart when I agree with you and dumb when I don't, what a shocker. Biden doesn't give a shit about Ukraine, he just doesn't want Rusisa to gain any more power. Giving aid to Ukraine isn't out of the goodness of his heart, but he'll say it is for points, sure. I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe the US can't be on the right side of an issue for the wrong reasons. This stuff happens all the time, it's why you see a shitty ass theocracy like Iran supporting Palestine. By your logic, I should oppose Palestine because Iran is horrible. But I don't really care if shitty people agree with me on an issue, that's always going to happen. Every single core belief I have are also believed by some shitty people. The issue is when you start changing your views because a few idiots agree with you. Think for yourself.

Could Biden be sending all the money he is to Ukraine if it was up to me? No, because he'd be sending money to Palestine and lots of other countries facing similar situations as well. And he would be giving people healthcare, legalizing weed, abolishing the police and prison, etc. "But who will protect us" I'm sure you'll say. Well get a gun and protect yourself, you don't need the state. But the act of aiding Ukraine isn't bad, giving aid to people who need it is good. Is Biden doing it for altruistic reasons? Of course not he's evil as shit. His geopolitical interests just happened to be on the same side as the morally correct position, it's purely a coincidence. In a similar situation in Palestine where his interests were on the other side, he showed zero consistency.

i can respect this.

But the act of aiding Ukraine isn't bad, giving aid to people who need it is good

i do have to push back on this point though and you may even agree with me.

this "aid" does not go to ukraine - the majority of it doesn't anyway. it goes to defense contractors here, which at this stage of the game is senseless. not only because we have no surge capacity to manufacture these arms and ship them overseas in time for a dwindling, untrained army with low morale and limited experience operating this equipment; but because any $ that gets through to the government in kiev will either be used to pay the salaries of corrupt bureaucrats or end up getting stolen by these same individuals when all of the resources there eventually dry up and russian tanks are parading down the streets of the capital. and they've fled the country.

can we also agree that the ukrainian counter-offensive is over and these defensive positions that ukrainian soldiers are holding will not last?

do you agree with this?

we've gone over this. this war is going to go one of two ways. either russia takes eastern ukraine by force and installs a russian-friendly government in kiev ensuring a neutral ukraine or the west comes forth with a settlement stating likewise.

or

we continue to supply ukraine with limited equipment and ammunitions to a dwindling army who's ranks cannot be replaced quick enough to prolong the fight. at that point, biden puts us troops on the ground and we've more or less triggered a global conflict or at the least a war between two nuclear superpowers.

there's no defeating the russian army unless we get involved directly. otherwise, we're only prolonging the inevitable. so what's the sensible move?

we both want what's best for the ukrainian people and their country. in order to begin the process of repopulating and rebuilding, a russian victory that is inevitable should not be prolonged and a settlement from the west is in the ukrainian people's best interest.