Here's why ball-dominance sucks & why it matters when guys have ball-dominnt skillset

[3ba11]

by NOT having ball-dominant skillsets, guys like Curry, Duncan, Kobe and MJ allowed higher levels of team offense/chemistry, which required less talent to win - i.e. secondary producers at sidekick like Klay, Parker and Pippen instead of franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option like Wade, AD, Luka, Kyrie, Bosh and Love

Lebron's ball-dominant skillset needed 6 different franchise players that had their own team - this is the most help ever and it produced more preseason favorites than anyone ever had (8).. However, the lower levels of team offense had non-winning records with every type of good roster, such as 4-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 4-8 with all-star teammates

Btw, ball-dominance = high-scoring primary ballhandlers like Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, etc, aka losers

[3ba11]

Teams lack capacity to add talent if they build around a secondary producer like Klay or Pippen, since any decent scorer might supplant them as 1st option - this is why secondary producers like Klay, Middleton or Pippen aren't considered franchise players - it's only the dominant elite producers that are considered franchise players.. The only exceptions are all-time floor generals like Kidd, Magic, etc.. Ultimately, Lebron's ball-dominance produces lower levels of chemistry and team offense, so he needs more sheer talent, sivch as franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option - this contrasts with non-ball-dominators that have better chemistry and therefore can win with secondary producers at sidekick.. Ultimately, a ball-dominant 1st option never produced the best basketball, aka dynasty (3 in 5) or dominant title run (1 loss average per round, 4 losses max)

[3ba11]

.
Reggie Miller and Pippen faced the same opponent in the playoffs 6 times....
.
R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage

[Full Court]

No question that Lebron's had the most help of any star in the history of the sport.

But I'm curious about how you classify SGA. Do you put him in the same category of ball dominators as Luka and Harden?

[1987_Lakers]

But I'm curious about how you classify SGA. Do you put him in the same category of ball dominators as Luka and Harden?

He doesn't like SGA, puts him in the same category as those other ball-dominant players. Then again, I don't know why you want his opinion on current players when 3ball has stated he hasn't watched an NBA game in 20 years.

[SouBeachTalents]

[Full Court]

He doesn't like SGA, puts him in the same category as those other ball-dominant players. Then again, I don't know why you want his opinion on current players when 3ball has stated he hasn't watched an NBA game in 20 years.

He's a good analyst and has keen insight into the game. His takes are much more intelligent than, say, yours.

[3ba11]

No question that Lebron's had the most help of any star in the history of the sport.

But I'm curious about how you classify SGA. Do you put him in the same category of ball dominators as Luka and Harden?

I consider a 23-year old that dropped 40 points in the seminal game of the Finals (Jalen Williams) to be a franchise player... Show me where Pippen or Klay did that - Jalen is a takeover guy that can produce elite stats... Ultimately, unlike MJ, Duncan and Curry, ball-dominators can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.. Again, this is because of the weaker chemistry of their ball-dominant skillset.. Heck, the heavily favored Thunder almost lost to bums in the Finals - they almost lost to the "weak east".. Remember that Shaq or Duncan used to SWEEP the weak East

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, Klay only dropped 40 to save the Warriors season once, not the Finals though so it doesn't really count.

I also love that this is now the criteria when his 2nd & 3rd ranked players (Kobe & Bird) dropped 40 in the Finals one time combined

[3ba11]

Hornacek destroys Klay:
.

Regular Season

Hornacek..... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay............... 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek..... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay............... 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay:

09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER

^^^ Dwight beat the 1-man Cavs just like Lebron beat the 1-man Warriors, or Baron Davis beat the 1-man Mavs in 07'.. It happens.

[3ba11]

Yeah, Klay only dropped 40 to save the Warriors season once, not the Finals though so it doesn't really count.

I also love that this is now the criteria when his 2nd & 3rd ranked players (Kobe & Bird) dropped 40 in the Finals one time combined

Klay isn't a dominant player like Jalen Williams.

There's no comparison

Klay is a far lower producer than Hornacek (see previous post).. In short, Klay is a carried bum and vastly overrated/inflated by the winning spotlight

[StrongLurk]

Klay isn't a dominant player like Jalen Williams.

There's no comparison

Klay is a far lower producer than Hornacek (see previous post).. In short, Klay is a carried bum and vastly overrated/inflated by the winning spotlight

Kobe is a far lower producer than Lebron. Simple fact. Not worth comparing the two.

[3ba11]

Kobe is a far lower producer than Lebron. Simple fact. Not worth comparing the two.

Yeah but now you're talking about 1st options, whose skillsets dictate brand of ball, fits and team chemistry... Accordingly, a simple stat comparison isn't accurate like it usually is for 2nd options.

Specifically, Lebron achieves higher PER by having lower levels of team offense, chemistry, fits, and teammate elevation.. Similar to Luka, LeDrive's skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, so teammates don't develop or play to capacity alongside him - this stuff matters because it (turning everyone into spot-up shooter/weaker chemistry) explains why Lebron underachieves roster talent compared to his peers, i.e. non-winning records with all types of good rosters (4-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 4-8 with all-star teammates)

Furthermore, LeDrive's PER has phenomenal spacing needs - he can't shoot over packed paints like Kobe, MJ or Curry... Lebron actually needs an all-star level spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP... Ultimately, Lebron's PER imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

I can go on... Excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the championship level.. An inability to carry the scoring load means he can't defeat max defensive attention - he needs equal scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention.. Carrying the "star" category of scoring MATTERS because it requires less stars, thus allowing the GM to find the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. So Lebron's PER prevents elite roster construction (in addition to weaker chemistry, fits, brand of ball, etc)

[StrongLurk]

Yeah but now you're talking about 1st options, whose skillsets dictate brand of ball, fits and team chemistry... Accordingly, a simple stat comparison isn't accurate like it usually is for 2nd options.

Specifically, Lebron achieves higher PER by having lower levels of team offense, chemistry, fits, and teammate elevation.. Similar to Luka, LeDrive's skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, so teammates don't develop or play to capacity alongside him - this stuff matters because it (turning everyone into spot-up shooter/weaker chemistry) explains why Lebron underachieves roster talent compared to his peers, i.e. non-winning records with all types of good rosters (4-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 4-8 with all-star teammates)

Furthermore, LeDrive's PER has phenomenal spacing needs - he can't shoot over packed paints like Kobe, MJ or Curry... Lebron actually needs an all-star level spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP... Ultimately, Lebron's PER imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

I can go on... Excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the championship level.. An inability to carry the scoring load means he can't defeat max defensive attention - he needs equal scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention.. Carrying the "star" category of scoring MATTERS because it requires less stars, thus allowing the GM to find the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. So Lebron's PER prevents elite roster construction (in addition to weaker chemistry, fits, brand of ball, etc)

No need to read whatever you typed. Kobe is a far lower producer than Lebron. Simple fact. Not worth comparing the two. Move on.

[SouBeachTalents]

No need to read whatever you typed. Kobe is a far lower producer than Lebron. Simple fact. Not worth comparing the two. Move on.

But now you're talking about 1st options, whose skillsets dictate brand of ball, fits and team chemistry... Accordingly, a simple stat comparison isn't accurate like it usually is for 2nd options.

Specifically, Lebron achieves higher PER by having lower levels of team offense, chemistry, fits, and teammate elevation.. Similar to Luka, LeDrive's skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, so teammates don't develop or play to capacity alongside him - this stuff matters because it (turning everyone into spot-up shooter/weaker chemistry) explains why Lebron underachieves roster talent compared to his peers, i.e. non-winning records with all types of good rosters (4-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 4-8 with all-star teammates)

Furthermore, LeDrive's PER has phenomenal spacing needs - he can't shoot over packed paints like Kobe, MJ or Curry... Lebron actually needs an all-star level spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP... Ultimately, Lebron's PER imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

I can go on... Excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the championship level.. An inability to carry the scoring load means he can't defeat max defensive attention - he needs equal scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention.. Carrying the "star" category of scoring MATTERS because it requires less stars, thus allowing the GM to find the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. So Lebron's PER prevents elite roster construction (in addition to weaker chemistry, fits, brand of ball, etc)