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-   -   How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251251)

Legend of Josh 02-09-2012 01:02 AM

How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
:banghead:

rufuspaul 02-09-2012 07:26 AM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
All part of master plan Joshson. All part of master plan.

liverpooty 02-09-2012 11:08 AM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
We are in a better situation now than we were then. Im not a big fan of perennially being either an 8 seed or 2 games back from an 8 seed. Drafting 9th-12th year in and year out is purgatory. If you're going to be good you should strive to be great. If you're going to be bad be really bad so that you can draft the pieces (hopefully), and eventually be great.

LJJ 02-09-2012 01:05 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
I know some of you say it's part of the plan, but I don't like it. I'd have much rather kept Wallace and Felton and then drafted a bit lower.

People always use OKC as an example these days, but they are such an extremely positive example. Is good to be hopeful, but it's not at all realistic to aspire the OKC route to "glory". They had an insane 3 year stretch in the draft.

They spent their 3 high lottery picks on Durant, Westbrook and Harden. They also drafted Ibaka late in the first round, and crazy enough they even drafted Landry and Glenn Davis as 2nd rounders. They could have just as easily ended up with Oden, Mayo, Flynn and Kosta Koufos. Then they would have still been the worst team in the NBA.

To prove that it normally doesn't happen, you only need to look at the teams that reached the finals over the past decade or so:

San Antonio: Only Duncan was a high lottery acquisition.
LA: No core player on the team was a high lottery acquisition.
Mavericks: No core player on the team was a high lottery acquisition.
Heat: Only Wade was a high lottery acquisition. (5th, not even that high)
Orlando: Only Howard
Cleveland: Only LBJ
Celtics: No core player on the team was a high lottery acquisition.
Pistons: No core player on the team was a high lottery acquisition.
New Jersey: No core player on the team was a high lottery acquisition.


The key to a successful franchise is to draft well with the picks they have, not to purposely get as many top 5 picks as possible. And the key is to improve the team through trades. So far, no iteration of the Bobcats management has shown the capacity to do both of these things. It makes me sad, but the future is not looking too bright. I just hope we can get lucky and land a superstar somehow.

C-A-T-S 02-09-2012 04:43 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Trust in Cho!

Timmeh 02-09-2012 06:49 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
LJJ has it right.

Also, look at the difference between Charlotte and all of those teams with the exception of Orlando and Cleveland - they're huge markets. And hell, I'll consider Orlando a major market because you give anyone the choice between Orlando, Charlotte, and Cleveland, 99% of them will pick Orlando.

That being said, I do wish we had kept Felton and Wallace and built around them. More than likely we'd have ended up with similar picks (Brown and Biyombo, and possibly even Kemba because we trade so damn much).

Even if we did build up superstars from the draft, I really could see us only getting to a 5 seed at the best, and that's getting the OKC treatment. So there's really no improvement. And once we got the 5 seed, we'd get frustrated and be totally okay when them blowing the team up and starting over again.

We got spoiled with the playoffs one year and I think we've become THOSE fans that are reeeeaalllyyyy never satisfied.

C-A-T-S 02-10-2012 02:51 AM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
The thing that hurt the most about Wallace was that he wanted to stay, you hardly ever find any All Star caliber players who would stay in a small market long but GW embraced it. I still think the trade had to happen but that doesn't make it sting any less. I think if we could have gotten Batum it may have been a bit easier to deal with.

~spectre~ 02-10-2012 09:48 AM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by C-A-T-S
Trust in Cho!


Indeed. Since he came we made that stellar trade shipping Jax to the Bucks (and look how he's since fallen) and IMO had the best draft ever for the franchise. I've always been a critic of this FO but for once I'm finally optimistic.

I wanted to keep Felton mainly because he was a good defender (I love a defensive team) and that squad we had going right after we brought in Raja Bell was one of my most favorites. After seeing how he's fared tho I'm pretty happy with how that turned out OTHER than us not getting any compensation for him.

Crash? I'll always hate that trade. All I can say it it was done under Higgins/Jordan...and now it's a brand new day. Have to just let that one go.

Legend of Josh 02-10-2012 02:03 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liverpooty
We are in a better situation now than we were then. Im not a big fan of perennially being either an 8 seed or 2 games back from an 8 seed. Drafting 9th-12th year in and year out is purgatory. If you're going to be good you should strive to be great. If you're going to be bad be really bad so that you can draft the pieces (hopefully), and eventually be great.


Well, this isn't the NFL so ... draft picks are still determined by a lottery system, and until that changes, 'tanking' or being very bad doesn't really do much for us IMO. To some degree, I honestly question the integrity of the draft system. Stern & Company behind closed doors could still be pulling strings.

To add, the picks we do take (even in the top 10 range) are almost always questionable ones.

C-A-T-S 02-10-2012 02:46 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
Well, this isn't the NFL so ... draft picks are still determined by a lottery system, and until that changes, 'tanking' or being very bad doesn't really do much for us IMO. To some degree, I honestly question the integrity of the draft system. Stern & Company behind closed doors could still be pulling strings.

To add, the picks we do take (even in the top 10 range) are almost always questionable ones.


If you finish with the worst record you are guaranteed a Top 4 pick though.

Legend of Josh 02-10-2012 06:32 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by C-A-T-S
If you finish with the worst record you are guaranteed a Top 4 pick though.


Even with my extensive NBA knowledge, I did not know that. My attention to detail isn't what it used to be with the NBA, and what's lost is gained by my attention to detail with the NFL. It's been this way little by little over the past decade or so.

acidbasesalt 02-11-2012 09:19 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
I suppose it all began with picking Adam Morrison back in 2006.
He's probably the worst lottery pick in the year, and now somewhere playing in Europe.

Then I think we traded for Jason Richardson that ate up about $13 million of cap space.

Later on Jordan hired Sam Vincent and the end result was another disaster.

Then of course, trading Jason Richardson for Boris Diaw and Raja Bell, which was a great move until Diaw underperforms every year.

We traded for Denver's 20th pick and the end result is, I don't know where that player is now.

Then we had the chance drafting Brook Lopez, and this time MJ was fairly certain in drafting him, but Larry Brown took the call and selected DJ.

And Larry Brown found us Diop for Carroll.

Then somehow we ended up trading Tyson Chandler away for cap space and Carroll.

Now Diop and Carroll are expensive units who can't play shait.

We resigned Tyrus Thomas for a truck load of money, yet he's not performing well enough, much like his tenure in Chicago.

I think if all of you ignore the past and see this season as the founding season it'll feel much better.



One more thing, I always believe the draft lottery is a grand conspiracy.
It'll be very interesting on which pick we have on the lottery day.
If we fall below top 3, call the FBI.
Just look at the past lottery results,
2010: Wizards - won 1st pick with 10% chance
76ers - won 2nd pick with "6%" chance
the worst 2010 team the Nets ended up with the 4th pick.

2009: Grizzles - won 2nd pick with 8.3% chance
Kings and Wizards the worst two teams of 09 season fell to 4th and 5th picks respectively. Not even top 3.

2008: Bulls won 1st pick with "1.7%".

2007: Seattle won 2nd pick with 9.7%
Portland won 1st pick with 5.3%.
THE WORST 3 TEAMS GOT 4th, 5th and 6th respectively.

I'm not going any further because 4 straight years of unusual data I think is enough.


You tell me if this is all normal.

Timmeh 02-11-2012 10:50 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Quote:

I think if all of you ignore the past and see this season as the founding season it'll feel much better.

I think we were better in our founding season.

rufuspaul 02-12-2012 12:56 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
At least we will shed the dead weight in the next 2 seasons.

jaggedmole 02-12-2012 05:06 PM

Re: How did we go from the playoffs two years ago, to unquestionable bottom-feeders?
 
Well there are several reasons for this.

1. The Bobcats have drafted horribly since the franchise began. Taking Morrison #3 is almost as bad as Washington taking Kwame #1. Both of those fall on MJ. Also, people forget, we left Brook Lopez and Roy Hibbert on the board in 2008 to take DJ Augustin with the 9th pick. May not sound like a bad pick. But considering we already had Ray Felton, that was a horrible move.
2. Bad Contracts. The Bobcats should rename the team to the Charlotte Bad Contracts. Think of all the guys we have overpaid and reached on over the years. The team under Larry Brown had a different philosphy than they have now. Which was building with mid level talent guys but pay them like top level guys. Cho will change this.
3. Yes it is by design. The Bobcats are a small market team. They cannot hope to go the way of OKC, Orlando or San Antonio and luck up and land a Hall of Famer. They have to be smart, patient and disciplined to build a contender. It will take time. Look at the examples of Philly and Indiana. Both those teams have sucked for several years. But they have amassed fairly talented rosters. They are deep. And both are in fairly good cap situations. (Philly is a little worse). And they have flixibility. And guess what? They are competing. THAT is who I see the Bobcats modeling themselves after. Kemba and Biyombo are the first steps of this.


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