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-   -   At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278583)

StateOfMind12 10-13-2012 03:32 PM

At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Rank these 3 players peak from best to worst between Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen.

I suspect the peak years of the three are...1997 for Hill, 1996 for Penny, and 1994 for Pippen.

scm5 10-13-2012 03:58 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Pippen.

He put up nearly identical numbers to Hill but played much better overall D.

Penny to me, isn't really in the comparison. Lesser numbers, D wasn't as good.

pauk 10-13-2012 04:01 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
1. Grant Hill (come on now, he was on his way to maybe be the Lebron before Lebron, i remember Jordan comparing his game to him in 1999 where grant averaged 26-7-5 and saying he passed the torch to him and so on, he was only getting better, then the injury happened)

2. Scottie Pippen

3. Penny Hardaway


But i was more of a Penny fan, one of the smoothest/fluid games i ever seen and playing PG at 6'7 made it even sexier...

When i think about it all these players were pretty damn similar, athletic point-forwards that could do everything...

dyna 10-13-2012 04:09 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
1) Hill
2) Pippen
3) Hardaway

Cali Syndicate 10-13-2012 04:21 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scm5
Pippen.

He put up nearly identical numbers to Hill but played much better overall D.

Penny to me, isn't really in the comparison. Lesser numbers, D wasn't as good.


Penny was the better most polished scorer of the three though. Had he played his natural position and the team relied more on his scoring instead of his facilitating, his numbers would be marginally better IMO.

scm5 10-13-2012 04:27 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pauk
1. Grant Hill (come on now, he was on his way to maybe be the Lebron before Lebron, i remember Jordan comparing his game to him in 1999 where grant averaged 26-7-5 and saying he passed the torch to him and so on, he was only getting better, then the injury happened)

2. Scottie Pippen

3. Penny Hardaway


But i was more of a Penny fan, one of the smoothest/fluid games i ever seen and playing PG at 6'7 made it even sexier...

When i think about it all these players were pretty damn similar, athletic point-forwards that could do everything...


Hill:

21/9/7 on 50% shooting 1.8spg .6bpg in 97'
26/7/5 on 49% shooting 1.6spg .6bpg in 00'

Pippen:

21/8/7 on 51% shooting 1.9spg 1.1bpg in 92'.
22/9/6 on 49% shooting and 2.9spg 1.1bpg in 97'

Those were their two best years for each players, in my opinion... and they are all very close. I would give the nod to Pippen because of his dominance on the defensive end of the floor.

tmacattack33 10-13-2012 04:29 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scm5
Pippen.

He put up nearly identical numbers to Hill but played much better overall D.

Penny to me, isn't really in the comparison. Lesser numbers, D wasn't as good.


Apparently efficiency doesn't matter to you in terms of numbers. Penny's FG% and TS% were threw the roof.
They were second only to MJ (yup, better than Wade, C. Paul, Deron...and of course the less efficient guys like T-mac, Carter, etc). The only people to meet that level since are Lebron and Durant.

He also had more assists per game than Grant Hill, yet one less turnover per game. Regardless, he was clearly a better passer than Hill was.

Defensively, Hill wasn't that great...he's actually been a better defender during his Phoenix resurrection than his prime days.

In 1996, Penny was 3rd in MVP voting behind MJ and Malone. And he deserved it.

Penny > Hill

pauk 10-13-2012 04:34 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Syndicate
Penny was the better most polished scorer of the three though. Had he played his natural position and the team relied more on his scoring instead of his facilitating, his numbers would be marginally better IMO.


Indeed, if you didnt look at the stats and only saw one game of these three players you would think Penny was a superstar (one of the top 3 players in the NBA or something)... he was much more aesthetically pleasing to watch, beautiful game, beautiful jumpshot, beautiful dribbling, beautiful scoring arsenal, could rebound and had amazing vision/passing skills (better than Grant/Pippen), flashy but efficient.... and remember his post game? People forget....

I say it again, Penny to me had the most beautiful game... silky smooth... everything was FINESSE...

scm5 10-13-2012 04:37 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tmacattack33
Apparently efficiency doesn't matter to you in terms of numbers. Penny's FG% and TS% were threw the roof.
They were second only to MJ (yup, better than Wade, C. Paul, Deron...and of course the less efficient guys like T-mac, Carter, etc). The only people to meet that level since are Lebron and Durant.

He also had more assists per game than Grant Hill, yet one less turnover per game. Regardless, he was clearly a better passer than Hill was.

Defensively, Hill wasn't that great...he's actually been a better defender during his Phoenix resurrection than his prime days.

In 1996, Penny was 3rd in MVP voting behind MJ and Malone. And he deserved it.

Penny > Hill


I posted up Hill's numbers above... here are Penny's two peak seasons:

22/4/7 on 51% FG% 2.0spg .6bpg in 96'
21/4/7 on 51% FG% 1.7spg .3bpg in 95'

In terms of scoring, Penny was the more natural scorer and scored more efficiently, but he wasn't as good as Hill.

Hill was like a mini-Lebron while Penny was like a mini-Wade.

Myth 10-13-2012 04:38 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
1. Pippen
2. Hill
3. Penny

Hill would have likely had a better peak than Pippen if it weren't for injuries. Pippen's D is what kept him above hill on my list.

scm5 10-13-2012 04:40 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pauk
Indeed, if you didnt look at the stats and only saw one game of these three players you would think Penny was a superstar (one of the top 3 players in the NBA or something)... he was much more aesthetically pleasing to watch, beautiful game, beautiful jumpshot, beautiful dribbling, beautiful scoring arsenal, could rebound and had amazing vision/passing skills (better than Grant/Pippen), flashy but efficient.... and remember his post game? People forget....

I say it again, Penny to me had the most beautiful game... silky smooth... everything was FINESSE...


I agree, it isn't all about numbers. Their numbers are actually kinda close, but Hill just did more throughout the game. It's about defense as well, and while Hill and Penny were more or less on the same level defensively, Pippen was on another level.

Pippen's defense, plus putting up numbers that are arguably greater than Hill and Penny's is ridiculous.

scm5 10-13-2012 04:46 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Myth
1. Pippen
2. Hill
3. Penny

Hill would have likely had a better peak than Pippen if it weren't for injuries. Pippen's D is what kept him above hill on my list.


The thing is, we're just talking about peaks. Peak play, Pippen was better. Hill was more consistently good, and put up better numbers than Pippen overall, when he was healthy. Enough to cover the gap defensively.

tmacattack33 10-13-2012 04:54 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scm5
I posted up Hill's numbers above... here are Penny's two peak seasons:

22/4/7 on 51% FG% 2.0spg .6bpg in 96'
21/4/7 on 51% FG% 1.7spg .3bpg in 95'

In terms of scoring, Penny was the more natural scorer and scored more efficiently, but he wasn't as good as Hill.

Hill was like a mini-Lebron while Penny was like a mini-Wade.


Wade's passing is closer to Hill's. Lebron and Penny's vision and passing are closer. (Penny was also a much better shooter than Wade, so that comparison is off). Lebron himself said that he'd compare himself to Penny and Magic.

As for the stats...

96 Penny: 21.7 pts on .605 TS%, 4.3 reb, 7.1 assists, 2.8 turnovers

99 Hill: 25.8 pts, .565 TS%, 6.6 reb, 5.4 assists, 3.2 turnovers


Basically an even stat line. And to me, from watching the games, Penny was a better scorer and on another level in terms of passing.




Biggest argument on Penny's behalf...was what he did without Shaq for 30 games in 1996. This was also what helped him come 3rd in MVP voting:

In the first part of the season (a 22 game span) without Shaq in 1996: Penny stats: 26.3 ppg, .622 TS% (there is no other way to describe this than purely amazing), 6.8 assists/3.2 turnovers, 5.3 reb

Clippersfan86 10-13-2012 05:11 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Penny clearly doesn't fit in with how short his prime is. Hill+Pippen are evenly matched and debatable. VERY similar players. Hill was better score, Pippen better defender IMO.

Whoah10115 10-13-2012 05:25 PM

Re: At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Syndicate
Had he played his natural position and the team relied more on his scoring instead of his facilitating, his numbers would be marginally better IMO.




This is not true. Penny Hardaway was 6'7 in high school, and played PG in high school.


Penny was a PG, in the mold of Magic Johnson, if anyone could be. Even without injuries, his stats were down when he moved to SG, including his points.



I understand they're all shorter, but Rose (who I think is a PG), Curry, and especially Westbrook are PG's, so I can't see how Hardaway's natural position is SG..not when we're talking about his actual game and not his height.


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