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-   -   Dirk better win MVP (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32177)

statman32 03-02-2007 03:44 AM

Dirk better win MVP
 
He seriously deserves it this year...I dont even think nash has a argument anymore...Yes I know there is still alot more games but right now dirk should be everyones MVP pick :cheers:

soog 03-02-2007 08:47 AM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
I'm a huge Dallas fan and a huge dirk fan, and i was of the same opinion... then nash went down and phoenix dropped 3 straight... dirk might be a great player, you might even attempt to say he's the best player out there right now.... however, I no longer believe he is the most VALUABLE player. Steve Nash is easily more valuable to his team than any other player in the league. Even if his numbers are comparable, he makes everyone else better.

Good job cuban... hope you're enjoying that money in your pocket more than a ring.

Silent Mav 03-02-2007 09:19 AM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
But the Suns were also without Diaw for a couple of those games. And even without Nash, the Suns have enough talent to beat Atlanta and they should've. So me personally, I'm not taking any of that into consideration.

It's between those two. And the Suns are just one hot streak, and Mavs a slump to turn things around for the voters. I do think Dirk deserves it. But there is a part of me that doesn't think he'll get the votes. I hope I'm wrong.

BigAl 03-02-2007 03:54 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by soog
I'm a huge Dallas fan and a huge dirk fan, and i was of the same opinion... then nash went down and phoenix dropped 3 straight... dirk might be a great player, you might even attempt to say he's the best player out there right now.... however, I no longer believe he is the most VALUABLE player. Steve Nash is easily more valuable to his team than any other player in the league. Even if his numbers are comparable, he makes everyone else better.

Good job cuban... hope you're enjoying that money in your pocket more than a ring.


Im sorry but if Im starting a franchise I place more value in the healthier player. Unfortunately since Dirk is such a warrior, Mavs fans and the nation most likely will not ever see what an impact the loss of their superstar would have.

So if we are going to talk about VALUE. How about the value of a healthy MVP caliber player is vs. an unhealthy MVP caliber player. The value to their team? Obviously Dirk is more valuable since he is more dependable.

What Im saying is this. Next year, Nash gets hurt and plays only 10 games and lets say the Suns don't even make the playoffs. I guess Nash should get the MVP again? His inability to contribute to team success projects his value?

Yes the Suns drop in value when Nash is not in the lineup as would the Mavs (if Dirk would ever go down). But we are talking about a 3-game skid. Not a big enough impact to derive any value out of it. Marion was out the other day and the Suns lost to Philadephia (horrible team). So Marion is the MVP? Because its obvious that the Suns cant even beat the lowly 76ers without Marion? No, thats dumb, as is the 3-game theory.

So here is my question/hypothetical. Which supporting cast is better?

Shawn Marion
Amare Stoudamire
Leandro Barbosa
Raja Bell
Boris Diaw

Josh Howard
Jason Terry
Devin Harris/Devan George
Eric Dampier

Yep the Suns supporting cast is better. So if your assumption is that Dirk is less valuable, then is it safe to say that the Mavs are doing more with less than the Suns?

Here is another way to look at it. We take Nash and Dirk out of the picture. Who is the better team, the Suns or Mavs? I really hope you said the Suns. So we know the Mavs are the better team at this point in the season, so, Dirk has more impact to carry a lesser supporting cast and put them above the team with the stronger supporting cast and the 2-time MVP. The variable here being Nash and Dirk.

space 03-02-2007 05:41 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Yes, the suns have a better team, but I think Mavs is a better team than Suns without both Dirk and Nash.

Without Nash, Suns simply can not find too many fast breaks or consistent offense. Mavs on the other hand, do not entirely rely on Dirk to guide their offense. Individually, Suns no doubt has quality players, but in a team, Mavs have the upper hand because of its versatility of its offense (offensive boards etc... look how they beat the cavs even with a mediocre shooting).

Silent Mav 03-02-2007 05:54 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Which kind of makes you wonder how the Suns would do with Avery coaching and his system instead of D'Antoni.

Trademark 03-02-2007 06:01 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Suns fan here. I don't think that the MVP should go to anyone but Dirk this year. The Mavericks are putting together an amazing year. Can't wait for the Mavs/Suns game.

BigAl 03-02-2007 07:41 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Mav
Which kind of makes you wonder how the Suns would do with Avery coaching and his system instead of D'Antoni.



Now thats an interesting thought. Here is something to consider though. Avery handpicked some of his players because of their ability to play defense. Im not sure Avery could take offensive minded players and turn them into defensive stars. Got have some sort of substance to mold people.

For example Nash will never be able to play defense at a suitable level for Avery's system. At the same time, Terry probably couldnt run a fast-break offense as well as Nash in D'Antoni's system. Point is, each coach's system is great but it also works because of the pieces they have put together to compliment it.

space- Not sure I understand that first sentence. You are saying with both superstars, the Suns are better than the Mavs, and without both superstars, the Mavs are better? So you are saying the Mavs supporting cast + their system is better than the Suns supporting cast + their system? Keep in mind that because every play is not ran through Dirk, he is always a presence on the court. When other teams have to constantly keep tabs on where he is and what he is doing it frees up other players for opportunities.

Against the Cavs the Mavs shot 47.5%. The league average is 45.6% and the Mavs season average is 46.5%. 47.5%=mediocre? As far as rebounding goes, the Mavs average 42.43 and the Suns 40.67. We are talking about 1.8 rebounds.

I honestly believe the Suns offense is way more versatile than the Mavs. The Suns lead the league in FG%, Points, 3Pt%, tied for first in FT%, and number one in assists. I think the difference are the defensive stops the Mavs get.

space 03-02-2007 07:53 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Basically what I mean: Mavs - Dirk > Suns - Nash

Yes, Dirk opens up shots for his team mates but Nash is so important to the Sun's system that Suns suck without Nash. Suns can not win without nash at the point. That's what makes Nash not merely a presence - Nash is Sun's everything. Therefore, the mavs squad will play better than the suns squad if both superstars are not in the game.

BigAl 03-02-2007 10:38 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by space
Basically what I mean: Mavs - Dirk > Suns - Nash

Yes, Dirk opens up shots for his team mates but Nash is so important to the Sun's system that Suns suck without Nash. Suns can not win without nash at the point. That's what makes Nash not merely a presence - Nash is Sun's everything. Therefore, the mavs squad will play better than the suns squad if both superstars are not in the game.



Gotcha. This is really hard to say since we really havent seen the Mavs minus Dirk for any sort of stretch...the obvious logic is that any team is worse with their star out. Under the same reasoning we cannot even tell how bad the Suns are minus Nash since he wasnt out but for a few games. Maybe a 2-4 week stretch would be a better indicator of the impact a star has when not in the lineup. My reasoning is that in just a 3 game flash, the remainder of the team (including the coach)probably doesnt have any adjustment time for the vacant spot like they would with a 2-4 week vacancy. Basically a team that loses their star shouldnt be expected to keep rolling without skipping a beat.

If the Suns were without Nash for 2-4 weeks we could really see what the remaining cast is capable of as they adjust to the missing star. Same with the Mavs or any team. So my conclusion is that the 3-game losing streak (sans Nash) from the Suns as a direct result of losing Nash, is somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction.

If we wanted to split hairs we could nominate Paul Pierce for MVP based on this logic. We all know what happened to the Celtics while he was out. I guarantee the Celtics performance without Pierce is FAR worse than anything the Suns would do without Nash (same goes for the Mavs and Dirk).

These reasons are why I really dont like anyone approving a particular player based on their absence. I would rather compare actual contributions rather than opinionated speculation.

different107 03-02-2007 10:58 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
i agree...at this point unless somebody else does something utterly amazing, dirk is well on his way to recieveing the MVP award

space 03-02-2007 11:19 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Agreed :D Hard not to give Dirk the trophy.

unknownsidhu 03-05-2007 07:19 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Also Agree :D - Dirks the best candidate for winning MVP as of right now, and at this rate should continue to be the top MVP candidate. Looking at the Mavs record - it speaks for itself why Dirk should be awarded MVP. I don't see why anyone else should even have a shot at winning MVP...:cheers:

Mavs4ever 03-05-2007 08:17 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
Dirk will prove in the Playoffs that he should be the MVP.. Go Dirk !

JellyBean 03-05-2007 08:20 PM

Re: Dirk better win MVP
 
I agree, Dirk should win the MVP award this season. It is between Nash and Dirk. I hope Dirk wins....and I aint even a Mavs fan. But the guy is good. Gotta give him his props.


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