This year has been ideal for Lebron's legacy

[ShaqAttack3234]

Originally Posted by magnax1

Moses definitely has a case over Kareem in 79 and 80. 79 especially when Kareem just didn't play as well he showed he could in 80. Here's a statistical comparison of their 79 seasons
Kareem-
24-13-5 61 TS%
Moses-
25-18-2 60 TS%
I don't really see that as a huge difference no matter how you cut it. Of course, they are about as different as they could be. I honestly think Moses was better offensively because of all the easy extra possesions he created, and he didn't really need the ball every time down the floor to score. Kareem was obviously the better defender, and Moses seemed to kind of take possessions off on some occasions on defense.

I think Kareem was quite a bit better offensively because he was an excellent passer, while Moses was a horrible passer, or more accurately, he didn't pass. Plus, I'd take Kareem's vastly superior post game, even though Moses was a solid post scorer.

But statistically, I'd say Kareem's edge is pretty clear. 24/13/5/4, 3.5 TO, 58 FG% vs 25/18/2/1.5, 54 FG%, 4 TO. Moses was an unbelievable rebounder, but outside of that, Kareem literally did everything better.

Kareem's versatility offensively was displayed in the '79 season from the articles I've read. He was clearly the best post scorer of that era, perhaps of all time, but using him so effectively as a facilitator in the high post says a lot.

I think the Lakers underachieved pretty badly that year too considering what they did the next year with a similar team and a clearly motivated Kareem. Of course Magic did fix their rebounding issue, which was pretty big, but I still would've expected more

I've seen nothing to suggest Kareem wasn't motivated in '79, and I've researched Kareem's career, including the '79 season.

They were severely lacking at the PF position to the point that their 2 forwards were Adrian Dantley and Jamaal Wilkes, neither were power forwards, and it showed in their rebounding as they were outrebounded by 3.3 rpg, which is terrible, despite Kareem having an excellent rebounding season.

Of course Magic helped on the boards since he's among the greatest rebounding guards of all time, particularly his first 4 years when he wasn't a good half court scorer and would help out with offensive boards.

But their rebounding was also helped by the additions of Jim Chones, Spencer Haywood and Mark Landsberger in '80 and they now outrebounded opponents by 2.2 rpg. Haywood was a disappointment overall and he was suspended by the team during the finals, and he had been complaining all year, but they still had a lot more size.

That was perhaps the biggest problem for all of Kareem's 70's Laker teams, though the '77 team also lacked enough scoring around Kareem.

But the '79 team also desperately needed some perimeter defense, as evidenced by Gus Williams lighting them up for 30.8 ppg in the '79 playoffs, DJ also had a big series vs them. But Michael Cooper became a significant player for the Lakers in '80, Bill Russell pointed out the significance of Cooper for the '80 team giving them a much needed stopper.

The '80 team was just so much more complete and well rounded. They built a true team rather than having some talent that didn't fit together and glaring weaknesses on the '79 team.

In 80 I'd probably take Kareem by a moderate margin, but from 81 onward it seems pretty clear that Moses was the better player, though Bird in 84 and 85 also seems clearly better then Moses to me as he began to decline.

Moses was probably better in '82, and definitely in '83, but not '81. I've seen a handful of Kareem games from that season and he was pretty much the same player as he was in '80.

Originally Posted by jlauber

There was a game on YouTube in the early 80's (not sure if it is still there, though) in which the analyst commented that Gilmore gave Kareem the most trouble of any center at the time.

I uploaded Laker/Bull match ups from both the '79-'80 and '81-'82 seasons a while ago. Maybe it was one of them, I'll have to upload them again soon, but Gilmore did seem to play very well vs Kareem.

Here again, though, Kareem was at his peak in from '71 thru '74.

In correct, Kareem's peak was '77. However, his prime based on what I know about Kareem's career was probably from '74-'80 or '81, though he entered the league as such an NBA ready player similar to Duncan, Chamberlain and Russell.

[Shep]

i can't believe people are even debating who was better out of moses and kareem in '79 and '80 . malone was swept out of the first round in '79 (with homecourt advantage), and then swept in the second round in '80 while underperforming in both

come to think of it, moses reminds me of a taller version of charles barkley: points, rebounds and not much else. both are 2 of the most overrated players in nba history.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Originally Posted by Shep

i can't believe people are even debating who was better out of moses and kareem in '79 and '80 . malone was swept out of the first round in '79 (with homecourt advantage), and then swept in the second round in '80 while underperforming in both

Well, Malone did have 28 points and 17 rebounds in game 1. Rudy Tomjanovich, Rick Barry and Calvin Murphy combined for just 33 points on 14/42 shooting. Which seemed to be far more of an issue for Houston. But Dan Roundfield did apparently play very well vs Moses, and had 23 points and 18 rebounds himself.

But in game 2, while Moses had 21 points and 24 rebounds, he did not score in that 4th quarter and only had 8 points in the entire second half, and Houston had led by 6 at halftime and also been tied after 3 quarters. Malone shot a little under 44% in the 2 games.

Meanwhile, Kareem was fighting off elimination with 32 points and 12 rebounds vs Denver and a 14 point 4th quarter. And Kareem followed it up with an even better game 3. He had 29 points, 16 rebounds, 8 assists and 6 blocks while hitting the series winning shot.

Can't say he seemed to play particularly poorly in the 1980 series, but I see no mentions of Moses playing particularly well in any of the articles I read. Houston was swept by an average margin of 18.5 ppg, though.

Here's a very quick summary I wrote a while back about the '82 Rockets/Sonics series for those that don't know about it.

In game 1, Houston led by as many as 9 in the first half and Moses had 16 points at halftime, but Houston blew that lead and lost by 15 with Moses only scoring 4 points in the second half. Houston did respond in game 2 blowing out Seattle by 21 and Moses had 28 points and 23 rebounds. In game 3, Sikma outscored Moses 30-24 and Seattle blew out Houston by 21 to clinch the series. A headline for this game was "Sikma wins battle of the big men." Moses dropped from 31 ppg on 52% shooting during the season to 24 ppg on 43% shooting in the series.

Outside of '83, and '81, Moses didn't have an impressive playoff career. I'm giving him credit in '81 for getting to the finals, but he didn't have the best finals either.

Look at '84, he should've been in his prime, but the Sixers greatly underachieve going 52-30 and losing in the 1st round with a lineup of all-stars including Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks and Bobby Jones to support Moses.

Erving was still a 22/7/4, 51 FG% player who averaged 1.8 spg and bpg. Andrew Toney was a 20 ppg/5 apg player who shot 53% and 84% from the line. Mo Cheeks put up 13 ppg/6 apg, 55 FG% and 2.3 spg while making the all-defensive 1st team, and Bobby Jones also made the all-defensive 1st team.

That's the same core that destroyed the NBA, but they had a disappointing season, and so did Moses. Teams don't get much more talented than that.