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Old 02-15-2013, 08:25 PM   #166
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by dd24
I don't think you build around any one person unless they're Durant, Kobe, or Lebron. If you trade Howard for a guard, then you still need a big guy. For any team to win a championship they need a big time guard and a solid big guy. Howard is about as solid as they come. Getting a guy like James Harden makes no sense to me. He's not a guy that is going to lead a team to a championship. If he was that great OKC would've let Russell Westbrook go and they would've kept Harden. He wasn't even a starter on that team. Besides, the Lakers have Kobe. They play the same position. Kobe will be around for a few years. There's no reason to address the SG position until Kobe retires.

If the Lakers were to trade Howard it would be for another servicable big, and draft picks. They definitely wouldn't be getting equal value in the trade. I don't think trading Howard is the answer. I think he's about as good of a 2nd scoring option as you can have for a championship caliber team. He'll never be that #1 option because he can't shoot a free throw, so he needs someone like Kobe around to finish games. That Magic team that went to the finals was not as talented as this Lakers team. That tells me there's far more going on here.

nba is moving away from the big guy thing...who did miami had to get the chip...they had ZERO RIM PROTECTION

we have Pau Gasol...who is exceptional playing in the post and making plays...

we got Howard to tutor under kobe....we can do the same thing with Harden....Remember superstars are not made in a day...I fully expect him to be one....

tell me who is the serviceable big u talk about???

NBA is becoming perimeter oriented and the better we adapt to it...it would be much better

we still would have a max cap next summer to sign a contract like Lebron/Melo
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:46 PM   #167
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by Lakers_Kobe_Fan
nba is moving away from the big guy thing...who did miami had to get the chip...they had ZERO RIM PROTECTION

we have Pau Gasol...who is exceptional playing in the post and making plays...

we got Howard to tutor under kobe....we can do the same thing with Harden....Remember superstars are not made in a day...I fully expect him to be one....

tell me who is the serviceable big u talk about???

NBA is becoming perimeter oriented and the better we adapt to it...it would be much better

we still would have a max cap next summer to sign a contract like Lebron/Melo

Harden is an all-star and will continue to be. He's not a superstar and will never be. He's not the guy to lead a team to a championship. That's just crazy talk. That's not to say he couldn't be part of a championship team some day. He's just not that go to guy. He proved that last year.

The servicable big question isn't one I necessarily have an answer to. It would really depend on who the Lakers are talking about trades with. If it's the Nets it has to be Brook Lopez for example. Other than that I'm just not sure the Nets have the pieces to get that trade done..... anyway, I haven't really thought about it too much.

I would highly doubt Lebron would come to LA. After the whole decision thing could you imagine what the world would do if he decided to join the Lakers. He'd be criticized even more for that. Miami will have to break up their big 3 though.

Speaking of that and how you think they lack size.... they have Chris Bosh and Lebron James. They have a ton of rim protection. They play the best team defense in the NBA in my opinion. Bosh is a guy I would take over Gasol right now. He's been underrated since he's joined Miami. While he isn't a superstar caliber player like Lebron or Wade, he is an all-star big man. Pair that with Lebron and they have more than enough fire power down low. It obviously has worked against teams with big front lines like OKC....
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:08 PM   #168
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"






What's funny? You got obliterated by 24 points, blown off your own court. What's so funny?

Last edited by bladefd : 02-15-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:47 PM   #169
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by dd24
Harden is an all-star and will continue to be. He's not a superstar and will never be. He's not the guy to lead a team to a championship. That's just crazy talk. That's not to say he couldn't be part of a championship team some day. He's just not that go to guy. He proved that last year.

The servicable big question isn't one I necessarily have an answer to. It would really depend on who the Lakers are talking about trades with. If it's the Nets it has to be Brook Lopez for example. Other than that I'm just not sure the Nets have the pieces to get that trade done..... anyway, I haven't really thought about it too much.

I would highly doubt Lebron would come to LA. After the whole decision thing could you imagine what the world would do if he decided to join the Lakers. He'd be criticized even more for that. Miami will have to break up their big 3 though.

Speaking of that and how you think they lack size.... they have Chris Bosh and Lebron James. They have a ton of rim protection. They play the best team defense in the NBA in my opinion. Bosh is a guy I would take over Gasol right now. He's been underrated since he's joined Miami. While he isn't a superstar caliber player like Lebron or Wade, he is an all-star big man. Pair that with Lebron and they have more than enough fire power down low. It obviously has worked against teams with big front lines like OKC....

superstars and leaders are NOT made in an year.....he has the edge....give him time and he will be there under Kobe....

atleast I would put money on him then on howard atleast now
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:53 PM   #170
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by Lakers_Kobe_Fan
superstars and leaders are NOT made in an year.....he has the edge....give him time and he will be there under Kobe....

atleast I would put money on him then on howard atleast now

I'm not trying to take anything away from his game. He is one of the leagues best SG's. He's in his 3rd season though. We knew Kobe, Lebron, and Durant were superstars in that time frame. His stats this year are a bit inflated because of the team he is on. I think you use the term superstar too loosely. I disagree with all the handing out of max contracts teams do. Joe Johnson was every bit as good when he got his max deal. Look how that's turned out. He's not a superstar, he's an all-star. I would say there's around 10 or less guys in the league who deserve a max deal. Outside of that, there's all-stars that you would like to have around them. Harden isn't one of those superstars you build around. He's a piece to a team.

I guess what really gets me with the whole a team can build around Harden thing is SG is the last position any team would ever build around. In the last 20 years what teams that have won championships were built around that position? It's really just Kobe and Jordan. Harden isn't close to being on their level. One could make a debate for Wade in 06, but that was really more Shaq while he still had something left in the tank. Ray Allen will be a first ballot hall of famer, and there was never a championship team built around him. He was a piece on one, maybe even another this but he's never the guy you would build around. You build around big men, or possibly a special PG. A good big man is probably the hardest thing in the NBA to get, so you have to keep them around. Hypothetically, if I was a team that misses the playoffs and is in the lottery I'd much rather have a good big man on my team already than a good SG. You can go out and draft a guard any year. Good big guys are much harder to find.

Last edited by dd24 : 02-16-2013 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:21 AM   #171
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by dd24
Harden is an all-star and will continue to be. He's not a superstar and will never be. He's not the guy to lead a team to a championship. That's just crazy talk. That's not to say he couldn't be part of a championship team some day. He's just not that go to guy. He proved that last year.

The servicable big question isn't one I necessarily have an answer to. It would really depend on who the Lakers are talking about trades with. If it's the Nets it has to be Brook Lopez for example. Other than that I'm just not sure the Nets have the pieces to get that trade done..... anyway, I haven't really thought about it too much.

I would highly doubt Lebron would come to LA. After the whole decision thing could you imagine what the world would do if he decided to join the Lakers. He'd be criticized even more for that. Miami will have to break up their big 3 though.

Speaking of that and how you think they lack size.... they have Chris Bosh and Lebron James. They have a ton of rim protection. They play the best team defense in the NBA in my opinion. Bosh is a guy I would take over Gasol right now. He's been underrated since he's joined Miami. While he isn't a superstar caliber player like Lebron or Wade, he is an all-star big man. Pair that with Lebron and they have more than enough fire power down low. It obviously has worked against teams with big front lines like OKC....

I agree with you across the board on this. I like Harden but he reminds me of when Ben Gordon was supposed to be the next big thing......or when Joe Johnson was supposed to be the next big thing........not to mention the "Can't win a playoff game" T-Mac.......well Harden is not as good as T-Mac was.
He's a helluva #2 or #3 type guy.....not a #1......just like Dwight.

NBA is moving away from the Big Man's game and it is a terrible mistake. A team with the right bigs (Tough & Skilled), running an old school post up offense would still dominate the league, in fact it would be easy. I mentioned in another thread that the Lakers won a championship while averaging 114 points per game.....yet only made 8, 3 pointers the entire season. You don't have to jack up crazy 3's to score big. I think Stern has ruined the game by encouraging this dumb style of basketball. An old school coach like Phil, Pop, Adelman or Sloan would dominate the league with this current Lakers roster if healthy. No frills, no crazy 3's and no crap ball.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:25 AM   #172
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by bladefd





What's funny? You got obliterated by 24 points, blown off your own court. What's so funny?

I don't think he thinks it's funny, I just think he doesn't know how to react to the situation.......I could be completely wrong......and I sure as hell don't like the smile but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.....some guys care but they are just geared like I think he is.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:28 AM   #173
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by DKLaker
NBA is moving away from the Big Man's game and it is a terrible mistake. A team with the right bigs (Tough & Skilled), running an old school post up offense would still dominate the league, in fact it would be easy. I mentioned in another thread that the Lakers won a championship while averaging 114 points per game.....yet only made 8, 3 pointers the entire season. You don't have to jack up crazy 3's to score big. I think Stern has ruined the game by encouraging this dumb style of basketball. An old school coach like Phil, Pop, Adelman or Sloan would dominate the league with this current Lakers roster if healthy. No frills, no crazy 3's and no crap ball.

I don't really think the NBA is moving away from the big man's game. I think there's just a lack of great big men which has forced some teams to do so. If we look around the league at the top teams, they still have excellent big men. Even if some are limited offensively, they still lock up the paint. I think you have to have a team that has a really good creator at some position, and then you need to have a good big man. Nobody is going to win it on their own. It takes a balance of players. My problem is building around a SG is crazy, unless it's a guy like Kobe or Michael.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:41 AM   #174
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by dd24
I don't really think the NBA is moving away from the big man's game. I think there's just a lack of great big men which has forced some teams to do so. If we look around the league at the top teams, they still have excellent big men. Even if some are limited offensively, they still lock up the paint. I think you have to have a team that has a really good creator at some position, and then you need to have a good big man. Nobody is going to win it on their own. It takes a balance of players. My problem is building around a SG is crazy, unless it's a guy like Kobe or Michael.

never said build around Harden...you are getting it wrong...I said he would be a piece to another 1 which we would add in next summer....Melo/Lebron.....

thats a potent mix for a team trying to win championship....just like lebron/wade.....wade with a better jumper in Harden...

I agree with DK...the game is going away from big man...
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:46 AM   #175
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by Lakers_Kobe_Fan
never said build around Harden...you are getting it wrong...I said he would be a piece to another 1 which we would add in next summer....Melo/Lebron.....

thats a potent mix for a team trying to win championship....just like lebron/wade.....wade with a better jumper in Harden...

I agree with DK...the game is going away from big man...

You can build around Dwight though and add pieces. With what Harden gets paid you are building around him. He's making too much money to put together a championship contender with him on the team right now. Once he becomes a FA again, then we'll see what the market will dictate for him. If it's affordable enough then it's worth it to have a guy like that. I'm not sure how I feel about going after Melo for this Lakers team. He's been much better for the Knicks this year. He's still a ball stopper in a lot of ways though. I don't see how he and Harden could co-exist on a team. The only way it works for Lebron & Wade is that Lebron is such a good play maker. Wade really had to learn to change his game too. I don't see it being a good fit for Melo & Harden.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:09 AM   #176
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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I don't think he thinks it's funny, I just think he doesn't know how to react to the situation.......I could be completely wrong......and I sure as hell don't like the smile but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.....some guys care but they are just geared like I think he is.

I should have typed something. I left it too short.

I feel as if that smiling simplifies the issue here. Howard doesn't know how to deal with losing. Coming from somebody competitive like me, I would not find ANYTHING funny for at least 6 hours after getting completely destroyed and my manhood obliterated like that by another person. I would be ashamed, embarrassed, pissed, cold, out of my mind.

If we are to move forward successfully as an organization and Kobe is to pass the reins to this young stud, he must embrace it. Take it. Make use of his athletic superiority to dominate everyone out there undersized. As dd24 mentioned above, this league is starting to downsize. More stock is put into speed, less length, 3pt shot, etc. Who can match Dwight's strength, length, athletic prowess? If Dwight puts his mind to it, he can dominate every coach out there who puts focus in run&gun full-court nonsense systems.

No more nonsense. Dwight must change his role a bit. Walk away with your head down after a lose. Don't stand there joking and smiling with opposition. Those days are over. It's time for Superman to return. Put the hearts out of everyone and anyone that stands in the way. You can be Clark Kent the jokester behind the scenes, but on the court You Are Superman.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:28 PM   #177
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by bladefd
I should have typed something. I left it too short.

I feel as if that smiling simplifies the issue here. Howard doesn't know how to deal with losing. Coming from somebody competitive like me, I would not find ANYTHING funny for at least 6 hours after getting completely destroyed and my manhood obliterated like that by another person. I would be ashamed, embarrassed, pissed, cold, out of my mind.

If we are to move forward successfully as an organization and Kobe is to pass the reins to this young stud, he must embrace it. Take it. Make use of his athletic superiority to dominate everyone out there undersized. As dd24 mentioned above, this league is starting to downsize. More stock is put into speed, less length, 3pt shot, etc. Who can match Dwight's strength, length, athletic prowess? If Dwight puts his mind to it, he can dominate every coach out there who puts focus in run&gun full-court nonsense systems.

No more nonsense. Dwight must change his role a bit. Walk away with your head down after a lose. Don't stand there joking and smiling with opposition. Those days are over. It's time for Superman to return. Put the hearts out of everyone and anyone that stands in the way. You can be Clark Kent the jokester behind the scenes, but on the court You Are Superman.

Great Post
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:53 PM   #178
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by dd24
I don't really think the NBA is moving away from the big man's game. I think there's just a lack of great big men which has forced some teams to do so. If we look around the league at the top teams, they still have excellent big men. Even if some are limited offensively, they still lock up the paint. I think you have to have a team that has a really good creator at some position, and then you need to have a good big man. Nobody is going to win it on their own. It takes a balance of players. My problem is building around a SG is crazy, unless it's a guy like Kobe or Michael.

Ok, let me explain my view on how the NBA is moving away from big men.
The addition of the 3pt line spelled the eventual doom of the big man, if not for that we wouldn't see guys jacking up 26 ft shots, we would not see guys drifting out on fast breaks. The rules have been changed too, the rule to limit the amount of time a big man can back down his opponent was limited and this severely hurt the post game. It was at that point the coaches and owners got the message that Stern wanted the game changed to a faster paced, free wheeling game and would continue to change the rules to make it happen. The coaches stopped going after the big post guys in favor of shooters like Dirk and Okur. They stopped training guys to play in the paint. It used to be mandatory for guys to go to the late Pete Newell's Big Man Camp to learn and refine their post game......now guys are told to work on their shot. There was a time when any big completely raw guy would make it to the NBA on size and strength alone such as Mark Eaton who was 7'4" but didn't play basketball, he was discovered working as a car mechanic and slowly taught how to play basketball. At his height, size and wingspan he was a real force inside, he never developed an offensive game. This was a common type of story until recent times and the NBA moving away from big men.

Eaton's head would barely clear the final entrance from tunnel to court at the Forum by less than a half inch, without a haircut it would actually rub concrete.

If Eaton had been playing when Shaq came in, Shaq would've had a very hard time....his toughest.

Again, the reason you don't see the classic big man today is because the coaches don't want them and don't train them.....so yes, that is the NBA moving away from them.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:59 PM   #179
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Having height and size is always a physical advantage and that will never change in basketball. Of course skill is the #1 attribute you want, if you have skill and size that gets you an edge on the competition. Sure big men need to shoot outside more today than they ever have. And absolutely the rules have changed, so I agree with those points. But to say there aren't big men at all in the NBA anymore just isn't right. I think if we looked at rosters from 70's & 80's the heights and sizes of players at their respective positions is pretty close to the same as it is today. Their skill sets may be slightly different, but I think it's still important for a team to have a guy who has a back to the basket game. That's how these teams get through the playoffs. You have to have people who can get close easy shots in the paint. That's the difference in these games that are often decided by just a few points.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:17 PM   #180
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Default Re: "Antoni and the missing "D"

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Originally Posted by dd24
Having height and size is always a physical advantage and that will never change in basketball. Of course skill is the #1 attribute you want, if you have skill and size that gets you an edge on the competition. Sure big men need to shoot outside more today than they ever have. And absolutely the rules have changed, so I agree with those points. But to say there aren't big men at all in the NBA anymore just isn't right. I think if we looked at rosters from 70's & 80's the heights and sizes of players at their respective positions is pretty close to the same as it is today. Their skill sets may be slightly different, but I think it's still important for a team to have a guy who has a back to the basket game. That's how these teams get through the playoffs. You have to have people who can get close easy shots in the paint. That's the difference in these games that are often decided by just a few points.

I am 100% for having big men in the game, so I agree with you about the importance.

The point I was making is that the NBA is trying to eliminate the Center position and I was explaining HOW they are doing it. I have been saying this for at least 3 years and more so last season. despite criticism I got.

So what happened......the NBA removed the Center position entirely this year.....if that is not an absolute clear sign of what they are up to, then there will never be a clear sign. Stern wants full speed, no contact, shot jacking and has done everything in his power to make this happen......look at the flop rule added this year, look at how easily they call flagrant fouls and the penalties for picking those up......if a Center tries to block a shot and misses, accidentally hitting the player at all, it is an automatic flagrant......and it doesn't take very many to earn a suspension........result = Bigs will have to back off and let guys score.....no more hard fouls to send a message to opponents. It's overwhelmingly clear what Stern's intent is.

Again, I am 100% against Stern's plots to eliminate the position.

But mark my words, there will continue to be anti Big Man rules added every year until it becomes pointless to have a big guy.
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