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Old 10-22-2008, 09:32 AM   #1
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Default If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

I've watched all the televised Raptors games this preseason and have not been all that impressed. I KNOW its preseason, but if this (the best team in years) underachieves from now to Christmas, Whats going to happen?

IMO its all on Sam at this point, the honeymoon is over. If the Raps are under .500 at Christmas should he be fired?

Its no secret that alot of knowledgable fans on this site dont respect him as a coach.

Thoughts???
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

I think a lot of fans are getting way ahead of themseleves, which is why I have always said that I think the Raps will be in a battle with about 6 other teams for the 7th and 8th spots...and any of them could take it, or end up 9th through 11th.

Mitchell will be fired 100% if we underperform. That is a good thing that can come from a bad season. Our wing play is BRUTAL. We knew this going in, but it's worse then expected at this point. Not sure the solution, to me it's Bargs. Gotta deal him for improved wing play. Parker is slow and getting slower. Moon just isn't that good....ideally suited for 6th or 7th man energy bench guy. Backup PG isn't great. Backup SG/SF is bad and coaching is bad.
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
I think a lot of fans are getting way ahead of themseleves, which is why I have always said that I think the Raps will be in a battle with about 6 other teams for the 7th and 8th spots...and any of them could take it, or end up 9th through 11th.

Mitchell will be fired 100% if we underperform. That is a good thing that can come from a bad season. Our wing play is BRUTAL. We knew this going in, but it's worse then expected at this point. Not sure the solution, to me it's Bargs. Gotta deal him for improved wing play. Parker is slow and getting slower. Moon just isn't that good....ideally suited for 6th or 7th man energy bench guy. Backup PG isn't great. Backup SG/SF is bad and coaching is bad.

I don't know if were getting ahead of ourselves, Raptors fans have big expectations this year. Or should I say big expectations for Raps fans.....A month ago I was thinking 4-5 seed and a playoff series win, based on the Denver game I'd say we'd be lucky to get the 7-8 seed.

Of course it was a PRE SEASON game, but it was our final preseason game.

Your right, Moon is all of a sudden a big concern, and AP can still get his shot off but is slow on D.

We just looked so disorganized out there against a poor defending team like Denver.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:05 PM   #4
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

imo its got A LOT to do with the second unit. When ukic came on the floor, the offense looked confused.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

First off, Sam has to go!! For the Raptors to have any success they need a coach who can draw-up plays suited for whoever is on the floor. Sure, the Raps are a young team but they need guidance, they are talented enough to learn and execute plays on defense and offense. I can't go through another season in which the Raptors get burned after every time-out.

Even if the dinos are contending for a playoff spot, for them to make it to the next level, they will be lacking two things #1 Coaching (see above) and #2 a second scoring option at the 3 spot.

We all agree that no matter what, the Raptors are in need of an athletic, slashing wing. I unfortunatly beleive that we will have to wait for another offseason to see major improvement at that position. I don't think Colangelo can land the missing piece without giving-up too much (Teams might start asking for Humphries as part of a combo for a goo slasher). The draft and free agency are his only options.

The only major move I can predict is a change in coaching, the Raptors don't have the depth to combine two of their top 7 players for a top 3.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

I look at it this way:

This was our team last year.
C - Rasho/Bargnani
PF-Chris Bosh/Humphries
SF-Jamario Moon/Kapono/Graham
SG-Anthony Parker/Delfino
PG-TJ Ford/Calderon

With this team we finished 41-41, pretty much average but underachieved due to a number of factors. Injuries, chemistry issues, etc.. that team could've been a 45-47 win team I think.

Key losses: Rasho, TJ Ford, Delfino
Key gains: Jermaine O'neal , Roko Ukic, Will Solomon

2008/09
C - Jermaine O'neal/Andrea Bargnani
PF- Chris Bosh/Kris Humphries
SF- Jamario Moon/Jason Kapono/Joey Graham
SG -Anthony Parker/Wll Solomon
PG -Jose Calderon/Roko Ukic

So who did we lose? TJ Ford was the best out of the group we lost.. and in reality he wasn't a positve factor for us so that was a case of addition by subtraction. However we do have the problem which i've talked about of lack of depth at the point. I see us being in a similar position of what the Suns were maybe like 2-3 years ago with Nash having to log very heavy minutes and becoming worn out come playoff time. Jose averaged 30 minutes a game last year and as a permanent starter I expect those numbers to spike into the 35-40mpg range, which I can see being harder for him to handle in the long run.

Rasho - lets be real here. I like Rasho as a lot of others did here, but we'd take -a healthy- JO over Rasho any day of the week.

Delfino - He was a decent defender and a streaky shooter, but all in all, he was definitely a replacable 2nd or 3rd tier player, so we didn't lose a whole lot.

So my point of this is, that we gained more than we lost. Our guard play hasn't been strong since the Vince Carter era. We've had pretty much at best slightly above average guard play and it hasn't been as big a problem as interior defense and rebounding. It's no doubt that we need to improve our wings but at the same time, I'm still more optimistic about this season than I was about last season.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

The defence looks non-existent. We couldn't stop anyone or anything Denver threw at us, and that is not because Denver is a good team at all, it's because we have sub-par defensive players. I mean, ****ing Dahntay Jones was owning us because our guards can't stop dribble-penetration to save their lives. The bench was ****ing brutal all-night, we have gone from having a strong bench with Rasho, Calderon, Delfino, to a bunch of straight scrubs. Solomon, Ukic, Adams has got to be one of the worst backup backcourt rotations in the league. And we couldn't even score consistently, against a piss-poor defensive team like Denver.

That was one of the most frustrating Raptors games I've seen in a long time, we just could not put anything together. I wasn't even discouraged by the Lakers game because they're actually a good team, we have to be able to beat an average team like Denver, or at least make it close, if we have any expectation of having a good record, let alone winning a playoff series.


OK, I realize it's one preseason game, and Denver is pretty good, but we need to get it together on both ends real quick come regular season, or we could end up being this year's Chicago Bulls.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
I look at it this way:

This was our team last year.
C - Rasho/Bargnani
PF-Chris Bosh/Humphries
SF-Jamario Moon/Kapono/Graham
SG-Anthony Parker/Delfino
PG-TJ Ford/Calderon

With this team we finished 41-41, pretty much average but underachieved due to a number of factors. Injuries, chemistry issues, etc.. that team could've been a 45-47 win team I think.

Key losses: Rasho, TJ Ford, Delfino
Key gains: Jermaine O'neal , Roko Ukic, Will Solomon

2008/09
C - Jermaine O'neal/Andrea Bargnani
PF- Chris Bosh/Kris Humphries
SF- Jamario Moon/Jason Kapono/Joey Graham
SG -Anthony Parker/Wll Solomon
PG -Jose Calderon/Roko Ukic

So who did we lose? TJ Ford was the best out of the group we lost.. and in reality he wasn't a positve factor for us so that was a case of addition by subtraction. However we do have the problem which i've talked about of lack of depth at the point. I see us being in a similar position of what the Suns were maybe like 2-3 years ago with Nash having to log very heavy minutes and becoming worn out come playoff time. Jose averaged 30 minutes a game last year and as a permanent starter I expect those numbers to spike into the 35-40mpg range, which I can see being harder for him to handle in the long run.

Rasho - lets be real here. I like Rasho as a lot of others did here, but we'd take -a healthy- JO over Rasho any day of the week.

Delfino - He was a decent defender and a streaky shooter, but all in all, he was definitely a replacable 2nd or 3rd tier player, so we didn't lose a whole lot.

So my point of this is, that we gained more than we lost. Our guard play hasn't been strong since the Vince Carter era. We've had pretty much at best slightly above average guard play and it hasn't been as big a problem as interior defense and rebounding. It's no doubt that we need to improve our wings but at the same time, I'm still more optimistic about this season than I was about last season.

Your right....were a better team than last year. We've got the best PF and likely PG in franchise history right now. If healthy JO would be the second best PF/C we've ever had. So we should expect more this year.

I agree with others in this forum who say package Bargs, picks and filler players for a near Allstar SG/SF. Mike Millers name comes up alot or even a lesser player who is expendable now....Shane Battier.
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAPSCANWIN
Your right....were a better team than last year. We've got the best PF and likely PG in franchise history right now. If healthy JO would be the second best PF/C we've ever had. So we should expect more this year.

I agree with others in this forum who say package Bargs, picks and filler players for a near Allstar SG/SF. Mike Millers name comes up alot or even a lesser player who is expendable now....Shane Battier.

The problem is that we aren't the only team. We can improve, but our record is based on how we do against other teams, and if they are simply better, then it doesn't matter if we are better then last year. We need to be better then the other teams.

Up above I meant that I think Raps fans are getting ahead of themselves in terms of the optimism when we got JO.
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

I am sure raptors will be above 0.500 by Xmas.

but i do agree that we should make some deal to strengthen the backcourt defense.. i thought Adams was suppose to be a good defender...

we have no one who can defend a decent PG/SG
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

I just wish bench steps up and be more confident and plays defense like the Celtics bench. Last year no doubt everyone thought they aren't going to win with pathetic bench, but they stepped up and they are good.

I'm not really worried about the starting lineup (maybe Moon), but the second unit needs to step up.

I don't care if It's preseason, Moon has showed no signs of improvement. 28% from the field averaging 5 points. Kapono wins his spot imo.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
The problem is that we aren't the only team. We can improve, but our record is based on how we do against other teams, and if they are simply better, then it doesn't matter if we are better then last year. We need to be better then the other teams.

Up above I meant that I think Raps fans are getting ahead of themselves in terms of the optimism when we got JO.
Two things I have to say about that.
1. As I said in my prior post, our team was better than our record indicated. If you remember, first was the TJ injury, then he came back and their were chemistry issues. Then Bosh got injured late in the season and this team couldn't win to save our lives. We weren't a 41-41 team. At the end of February we were 32-25. In March we went 6-11 thanks to wins against Charlotte, Miami (twice), New York, Seattle, and a surprise win against Detroit. But you get the idea, the month in itself was bad, and we couldn't beat ANY above .500 teams. We started the month with blowout losses to Charlotte and Orlando, then we have some wins against bottom feeders (Miami and Seattle) sandwiched in, and then a loss to a depleted Wizards team that didn't have Caron Butler or Gilbert Arenas. Then, Bosh is still M.I.A. when we go on our 5 game West coast road trip and lose to all 5 of the teams, LA, GS, Denver, Sacramento, and Utah.

So my point of this all is that the team that ended the season wasn't a playoff team. We weren't a team that played the best it could and ended up 41-41. We were a team with a ton of issues and made the playoffs because we managed to stop the bleeding just enough to squeak out a 6th seed.

2. We're hearing all this talk about how the east has improved, but the only Eastern Conference team that improved enough to be a significant contender was Philly.

The Heat have Beasley now, but Mark Blount is there starting center and Chris Quinn is their starting pg. Sure it's gonna be a fun, up and down the court team, but that's not going to make them a real threat.

The Bucks got Richard Jefferson.. Yeah it improves them, but I don't think that RJ, Michael Redd, and Bogut make that team some sort of powerhouse.

Those are the only teams I can think of with major additions. The Cavs improved as well, but they were above us. The Pistons and Magic pretty much stayed the same while we got better.

The Hawks suck. Sure they managed to squeak into the playoffs by losing the least last year, but they still have their work cut out for them to make it back in.

So I think what you've done is overrate the other teams, and underrate our team. Nobody has said we're gonna be a top 2-3 team in the East, but we're definitely gonna be a big threat.

Last edited by bokes15 : 10-22-2008 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

But right now, in the preseason, yes only the preseason, we haven't shown this improvement. On paper we can look and say we improved, but it has to show on the court. Teams can develop from free agency, or just with internal growth. Right now, we haven't shown that.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
But right now, in the preseason, yes only the preseason, we haven't shown this improvement. On paper we can look and say we improved, but it has to show on the court. Teams can develop from free agency, or just with internal growth. Right now, we haven't shown that.
Which is a double standard coming from you seeing that you're saying that changes mean nothing on paper until the games are played, but also telling us that other teams have improved (even though they haven't played any regular season games either). Tell me which EC teams have looked very improved in the preseason? None, it's all speculation at this point.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: If This Raptors Team Underachieves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Which is a double standard coming from you seeing that you're saying that changes mean nothing on paper until the games are played, but also telling us that other teams have improved (even though they haven't played any regular season games either). Tell me which EC teams have looked very improved in the preseason? None, it's all speculation at this point.

Since we're not playing very well in the preseason, I am giving credit to those teams we are playing against.

We know on paper out team has improved, since we are able to watch out team on the court more then other teams, we can see if it is translating well onto the court. It's not a double standard, just more information to base an opinion. Maybe other teams are just as messed up as us, and if so, then we'll be fine. But for me, having watched the preseason games, I am not seeing the improvement yet. I don't know how many could say they have.

I can't tell you all the teams that have looked improved in the preseason, but I can tell you a team that doesn't look improved...and it's the Raptors.
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