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Old 10-22-2008, 01:06 PM   #1
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Default Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

I've liked Vince as much as the next guy. It's been fun to witness this decades version of the human highlight real. The guy for years did things on the basketball court that most of us could only dream of doing. BUT, there was always one major thing (IMO) that kept him from taking that next step into the games elite. And that one thing was, and still is, an inner desire to win. I mean sure he likes to win, as anyone would, but it's not really what drives him.

One could argue that the reason he wanted to leave Toronto was because they weren't winning, but that simply wasn't it. He wanted out because of changes made to the team, changes in the front office, promises that were made and not kept, and lack of consistency. I think that an example of what i'm saying is his years in NJ. The Nets have only been out of the first round once since his arrival, and yet you always have had the impression that Vince has been happy, maybe with the exception of last year. He's been content that he's has his core of Kidd and RJ, that he's been able to have some fun, and that there hasn't been a lot of pressure on himself or the team.

I guess I can't really knock him for it because some have it and some don't, but i've now realized that as the main piece in a championship contender, VC just doesn't have what it takes. He's talented enough, but the desire is not there.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

no offense, but that post has the dust of five years ago on it.

one wonders what you were watching last year when carter played a very good, very gritty season on one foot.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
no offense, but that post has the dust of five years ago on it.

one wonders what you were watching last year when carter played a very good, very gritty season on one foot.
my post had nothing to do with putting up good numbers and playing through injuries. If you actually listened to him in interviews, he didn't seem to mind the fact that the team was doing badly. Sure he said things that he always says, we need to do this, we need to focus on that, we need to get better in this area and so on and so forth. But how many times have you heard the guy say, "This is my team, and I need to focus on this or that, I'm here to win a championship, and I won't rest until/unless I achieve that goal." Unless I missed something, it's rare to never.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

well, this is sort of where my "five years" comment comes in. all the points you mention are true in general, but people have been making them forever.

but if you listen to interviews this preseason carter has said several times that he understands that this is his team and it's time for him to step up his leadership. he's actually done it, too, like in the case where brook lopez started out soft in london before vince gave him hell, with the result that lopez played much better the second half.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Old news...
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

lol I have nothing more to add. Gigantes hit the bulls eye.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
well, this is sort of where my "five years" comment comes in. all the points you mention are true in general, but people have been making them forever.

but if you listen to interviews this preseason carter has said several times that he understands that this is his team and it's time for him to step up his leadership. he's actually done it, too, like in the case where brook lopez started out soft in london before vince gave him hell, with the result that lopez played much better the second half.
Alright fair enough. I was just thinking about it as I was reading the Nets season preview on Espn.com in which they were talking about how Vince hasn't once complained about the changes that have been made. And it made me think back to the initial trade to NJ from Toronto. He knows that this team is definitely not going to win a championship, and he is on the down end of his career, yet he's content to just work hard and make the best out of his curret situation rather than to say I want a championship.
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haterofhaters
Alright fair enough. I was just thinking about it as I was reading the Nets season preview on Espn.com in which they were talking about how Vince hasn't once complained about the changes that have been made. And it made me think back to the initial trade to NJ from Toronto. He knows that this team is definitely not going to win a championship, and he is on the down end of his career, yet he's content to just work hard and make the best out of his curret situation rather than to say I want a championship.
What you've just said there points to a massive contradiction and overwhelming sense of irony relating to this whole situation.

You're right. This Nets team - as currently constructed - will not win a Championship. We all know that. Have a think about what would happen though, if Vince did as you suggest he should - tried "show that he has leadership aspirations and a burning desire to win a Championship" - and asked for a trade to a contending team....(the reason I used parentheses there was not to quote you, but to indicate that in his time as a Net, he has done everything to show that he is in fact a true leader. One example showing this is that he missed less game time as a Net than both Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson did in their time with him as the big three - thus flying in the face of the media's perception of him as a soft player who couldn't cope with nagging injuries)

You know full well what would happen - he would be absolutely crucified. The NBA media crucified him for the way his tenure in Toronto ended and have never moved on since (I point to a lack of success of the Raptors franchise in the last 4-5 years as the reason behind this. They haven't been relevant as a franchise since VC left - hence why the media still harps back to his time there). If he tried to show aspirations of championship success and a burning desire to win, so called "journalists" like Yahoo's Adrian Wojnarowski would crucify him for being a quitter and re-hash his final days as a Raptor and compare them to his exit from Jersey.

In this sense, Vince is in a no-win situation. It's painstakingly obvious that the basketballing media will never give the guy a chance to prove their horrendously inaccurate perception of him, wrong.

Last edited by Rusty : 10-23-2008 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty
...In this sense, Vince is in a no-win situation. It's painstakingly obvious that the basketballing media will never give the guy a chance to prove their horrendously inaccurate perception of him, wrong.
very interesting theory and it makes a lot of sense to me.

it certainly does amaze me how harshly many sports writers treat carter. usually they say it's due to his competitive drive not matching his talent, but one wonders if there's still a lot of scorn left over from the toronto thing. writers in their 'best of' lists are still savaging carter, for example mike kahn's list where he ranks carter as a ridiculously low 38 in contrast to, let's say, carter's rank of 13th-best player in the NBA based on stats (efficiency rating).

these guys seem to have no trouble massively penalising carter for not having enough 'drive' and meanwhile rate a lot of guys ahead of him who are extremely selfish, erratic and inconsistent in their production, problems that you'll never have to worry about from a vince carter.

so i guess some people love to hate others based on their pet peeves. at the risk of going political, not unlike the number of americans who hate barack obama simply because he's black, has an arabic name, whose father's ancestry probably practiced islam, etc.
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Quote:
You're right. This Nets team - as currently constructed - will not win a Championship. We all know that. Have a think about what would happen though, if Vince did as you suggest he should - tried "show that he has leadership aspirations and a burning desire to win a Championship" - and asked for a trade to a contending team....(
I'm not even saying that he should demand a trade to a contending team, which is the reason I brought up the Toronto situation. Contending wasn't an issue as the team were EC contendenders at one point and time. The point was to say that win or lose, you get the impression that Vince Carter is happy with how his career has turned out and where he is now, even though the furthest he's been is the 2nd round.

Quote:
in his time as a Net, he has done everything to show that he is in fact a true leader. One example showing this is that he missed less game time as a Net than both Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson did in their time with him as the big three - thus flying in the face of the media's perception of him as a soft player who couldn't cope with nagging injuries)
Does that really show he was a true leader? or that he had poor leadership skills in Toronto and wanted to become a better leader and prove the doubters wrong?

Quote:
If he tried to show aspirations of championship success and a burning desire to win, so called "journalists" like Yahoo's Adrian Wojnarowski would crucify him for being a quitter and re-hash his final days as a Raptor and compare them to his exit from Jersey.
again, i'll reiterate the point that "desire" doesn't mean him saying , "I want to go to a championship contender." If you need further explanation about that, i'll gladly give it later when I have more time.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

out of the first round twice...

in 05-06 and in 06-07
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

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Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
out of the first round twice...

in 05-06 and in 06-07
quite an accomplishment.
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Vince Carter's fatal flaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haterofhaters
quite an accomplishment.
especially compared to your hometown team.

in fact, last time they made it to the playoffs they got spanked by the nets, correct?

still, i think the knicks could be a kickass team in a couple years. good coach, wealthy owner, if they can only figure out how to play top-notch defense.
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