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Old 10-08-2006, 12:13 AM   #1
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Default why did Ben Wallace sign with CHI?

Without anyone thinking I To anyone who think I made this thread so bash the signing, I want to make it clear that I haven't.

Instead I would like feedback as to why did Ben sign with chi?
Was it primarily for chance at a Big check?
Or was it due to the fact that he may be believe he would have another legit title shot?
Also of note quite a few big name signees have flopped in their first year with a new team, do you guys have that fear?
What do you guys think?
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Old 10-08-2006, 02:26 AM   #2
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thebbulls drafted ben wallace for two reasons....1)HE WAS THE BEST FREE AGENT ON THE MARKET..2)HE IS THE EXACT EPITOME WAS WHAT CHICAGO IS ALL ABT....DAMN ONE MORE)>...he hated flip saunders..lol.....and he musta been told beforhand by management that theyre gonna get rid of some guys and draft some vets and he couldnt turn down the offer..ben will retire a bull..
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Old 10-08-2006, 02:28 AM   #3
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Point blank:

Pax needed someone to do what Tyson and Eddy couldn't

Man I wish we kept Elton Brand.
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Old 10-08-2006, 06:44 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BullsBigMan29
Point blank:

Pax needed someone to do what Tyson and Eddy couldn't

Man I wish we kept Elton Brand.
if they kept elton, then the bulls would never had been bad enough to truly build through the draft like they did and the one year they had multiple lottery picks to get gordon and deng would not have happened. although during that period they may have won between 30-40 since elton is just that good.
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Old 10-08-2006, 10:06 AM   #5
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Yeah you're right, I miss elton, but who knows what would happen if he stayed, we probably wouldnt have ben and deng...

But yeah I think Wallace left Detroit because of flip, and Chicago was a team that fits his game perfectly so he came here. Plus not many other teams had the cap space to pay him his money.
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Old 10-08-2006, 10:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knickscity
if they kept elton, then the bulls would never had been bad enough to truly build through the draft like they did and the one year they had multiple lottery picks to get gordon and deng would not have happened. although during that period they may have won between 30-40 since elton is just that good.

I know no team would wan't to be one of the low teams, but it benefited the team later because it received better picks. We'd be good with Brand, but there wouldn't be much talent other than him. Now the current team is multi-talented and there' isn't one obvious star, someone steps up every night.
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Old 10-08-2006, 11:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BullsBigMan29
Point blank:

Pax needed someone to do what Tyson and Eddy couldn't

Man I wish we kept Elton Brand.
Oh, you wish you kept Brand. Just be thankful youre not a wizards fan. I wish we kept, Richard Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Rasheed wallace, and Chris Webber. Not to mention the countless number of pathetic draft choices throughout the franchise history, there have been no, literaly, no, draft picks that produced good players.
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:01 PM   #8
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Ben Wallace signed with the Bulls because he wants to be on a team where defense comes first. And I'd say the Chicago Bulls are one of the last teams in the league where that is true.

Ben is a player who has been adversely affected by the new softer defensive rules and he wants to be able to effect a game like he used to. The Pistons changed their gameplan once they figured out you couldnt win with defense alone anymore. They got Flip and he really helped jolt their offense and make them one of the best offensive teams in the league. Ben was left in the dust in a sense, because he couldn't legitamately contribute on offense. He was great defensively but with the diminished role of defense in the league, it became clear that he couldn't help the Pistons beat a team like Miami or Cleveland.

Ben sat out the last quarter of game 6 against the Heat. That really pissed him off. The problem is, that was the only quarter of the game where Detroit outscored Miami. I think this frusterated him and he laid the blame on Detroit getting away from its defensive roots. Well, thats a valid claim, but the truth is the entire league is getting away from defense (except for the bulls) because theres no way you can win with hard nosed girtty defense with these new rules.

And yes, Bulls fans should worried about this signing. Although he is an upgrade from Tyson Chandler, he does not fill the Bulls weakness: lack of inside scoring. Not only is a player like him less valuable in the NBA today, his body is breaking down and his numbers have been on the decline for a few years now. His large contract will make it difficult for the Bulls to resign some core players like Nocioni and Gordon. Ben will also have a negetive impact on Chicago's offense. Last year teams really figured out that Ben was an offensive achilles heal and they would foul him intentionally to break up a play. Also, Ben's lack of offensive capability allows the other team to double team the Bulls post players and makes them even less effective in that area. So the Bulls have gotten worse in their weakest area and better in their strongest area.
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:36 PM   #9
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If we need someone who can play better offensively down low, we can sub in P.J. Brown who can play as a legitimate center at 6'11. His whole career he averaged double-doubles nearly every game. He's got the size, power, intelligence, and also is not bad at defense. P.J. Brown plays both power forward and center anyway so it wouldnít be a problem. Yes, Ben Wallaceís numbers went down from the 04/05 season to the 05/06 season, but you canít expect someones numbers to be better evey year. One year a player might have a good season another year a player might have a down season. It even happens to the best players. One important stat did improve though, his FG% was 45% in 04/05 and in 05/06 it was 51%. The reason why he had less points per game than usuall was because he didnít shoot the ball as much as he usually does. Maybe if he increases his field goal attempts per game this year, he will score more points. Anything could happen. I still think he will be a nice fit for the Bulls no matter who critizes him.When a free agent like Ben Wallace is available then you have to go for him and thatís exactly what the Bulls did. Great pickup.

Not only do I think Big Ben came for a new start on a defensive minded team, I also think he can see Chicago as a place where he can someday win a second championship and it's not out of the question. He probably wants to show that he can still play at a strong level.
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Old 10-08-2006, 04:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Style
If we need someone who can play better offensively down low, we can sub in P.J. Brown who can play as a legitimate center at 6'11. His whole career he averaged double-doubles nearly every game. He's got the size, power, intelligence, and also is not bad at defense. P.J. Brown plays both power forward and center anyway so it wouldn’t be a problem. Yes, Ben Wallace’s numbers went down from the 04/05 season to the 05/06 season, but you can’t expect someones numbers to be better evey year. One year a player might have a good season another year a player might have a down season. It even happens to the best players. One important stat did improve though, his FG% was 45% in 04/05 and in 05/06 it was 51%. The reason why he had less points per game than usuall was because he didn’t shoot the ball as much as he usually does. Maybe if he increases his field goal attempts per game this year, he will score more points. Anything could happen. I still think he will be a nice fit for the Bulls no matter who critizes him.When a free agent like Ben Wallace is available then you have to go for him and that’s exactly what the Bulls did. Great pickup.

Not only do I think Big Ben came for a new start on a defensive minded team, I also think he can see Chicago as a place where he can someday win a second championship and it's not out of the question. He probably wants to show that he can still play at a strong level.

If PJ Brown is coming off the bench whos the starting PF? Anyway, that old guy still has some game left but hes not going to solve your problem. When all your scoring comes from the outside and your leading scorer only averages 16 ppg a guy like PJ Brown cannot solve your lack of offense.

And its not like Ben had up and down seasons. His numbers have been declining for 3 straight years. Hes 32 years old and thats bound to happen. His peak has come and gone. He still has game left but ihes definately on the downhill slope. His FG% went up last year BECAUSE he didnt shoot (by shots I meat tip ins/layups) the ball as much. When you get fouled your shot doesnt count as a FGA. If we factored in his missed FTA to his FG% he would be shooting around 30%. So when he actually gets the ball you have about a 30% chance of actually getting points on the board.

IMO chicago should have drafted Rudy Gay and still traded Chandler for PJ Brown. That way you would be getting a versatile scorer and defender along with ridding yourself of that nasty Chandler contract. Then you should have signed a cheap center like Przybilla or Nazr Mohammed or traded Deng for a better center. You probably could have gotten Magloire or someone like that.

With your saved cap space you could have A) Traded for Garnett... or B) Resigned all of your core in the future. Instead you are posed to make a do or die run over the next 2 years or so. I mean, after two years Gordon will probably leave and either Nocioni or Deng will be gone for sure.

Nobody seems to be adressing the problem in Chicago. Sure, defense is great and all but with the new rules I keep talking about there is NO WAY you can win with defense alone. You need legitamate scorers and although you have players with the potential to be those legitamate scorers, Skiles runs a Larry Brown-like system that does not encourage a free-flowing offense. Gordon would be putting up at least 20 ppg on most other teams. Wake up and smell the coffee Chicago, this league is about SCORING not DEFENSE.
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Old 10-08-2006, 05:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by final.wrath
If PJ Brown is coming off the bench whos the starting PF? Anyway, that old guy still has some game left but hes not going to solve your problem. When all your scoring comes from the outside and your leading scorer only averages 16 ppg a guy like PJ Brown cannot solve your lack of offense.
And its not like Ben had up and down seasons. His numbers have been declining for 3 straight years. Hes 32 years old and thats bound to happen. His peak has come and gone. He still has game left but ihes definately on the downhill slope. His FG% went up last year BECAUSE he didnt shoot (by shots I meat tip ins/layups) the ball as much. When you get fouled your shot doesnt count as a FGA. If we factored in his missed FTA to his FG% he would be shooting around 30%. So when he actually gets the ball you have about a 30% chance of actually getting points on the board.

IMO chicago should have drafted Rudy Gay and still traded Chandler for PJ Brown. That way you would be getting a versatile scorer and defender along with ridding yourself of that nasty Chandler contract. Then you should have signed a cheap center like Przybilla or Nazr Mohammed or traded Deng for a better center. You probably could have gotten Magloire or someone like that.

With your saved cap space you could have A) Traded for Garnett... or B) Resigned all of your core in the future. Instead you are posed to make a do or die run over the next 2 years or so. I mean, after two years Gordon will probably leave and either Nocioni or Deng will be gone for sure.

Nobody seems to be adressing the problem in Chicago. Sure, defense is great and all but with the new rules I keep talking about there is NO WAY you can win with defense alone. You need legitamate scorers and although you have players with the potential to be those legitamate scorers, Skiles runs a Larry Brown-like system that does not encourage a free-flowing offense. Gordon would be putting up at least 20 ppg on most other teams. Wake up and smell the coffee Chicago, this league is about SCORING not DEFENSE.

the signing only helped in the way that when their perimeter shooters which is where all their offense will come from, will have extra shot due to the increase in offensive rebounds. but if pj and ben start then double teams on gordon and noce would be rampant. pj was a great pickup but chi overpaid a lot for ben. I don't think 15 boards a game warrants 10 mil for a 32 yeat old center but we will see.
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Old 10-08-2006, 06:25 PM   #12
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I don't think 15 boards a game warrants 10 mil for a 32 yeat old center but we will see.

actually ben had only around 12 rebounds the past 3 years. and they payed him about 15 mil over 4 years.
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Old 10-08-2006, 11:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by final.wrath
Ben Wallace signed with the Bulls because he wants to be on a team where defense comes first. And I'd say the Chicago Bulls are one of the last teams in the league where that is true.

Ben is a player who has been adversely affected by the new softer defensive rules and he wants to be able to effect a game like he used to. The Pistons changed their gameplan once they figured out you couldnt win with defense alone anymore. They got Flip and he really helped jolt their offense and make them one of the best offensive teams in the league. Ben was left in the dust in a sense, because he couldn't legitamately contribute on offense. He was great defensively but with the diminished role of defense in the league, it became clear that he couldn't help the Pistons beat a team like Miami or Cleveland.

Ben sat out the last quarter of game 6 against the Heat. That really pissed him off. The problem is, that was the only quarter of the game where Detroit outscored Miami. I think this frusterated him and he laid the blame on Detroit getting away from its defensive roots. Well, thats a valid claim, but the truth is the entire league is getting away from defense (except for the bulls) because theres no way you can win with hard nosed girtty defense with these new rules.

And yes, Bulls fans should worried about this signing. Although he is an upgrade from Tyson Chandler, he does not fill the Bulls weakness: lack of inside scoring. Not only is a player like him less valuable in the NBA today, his body is breaking down and his numbers have been on the decline for a few years now. His large contract will make it difficult for the Bulls to resign some core players like Nocioni and Gordon. Ben will also have a negetive impact on Chicago's offense. Last year teams really figured out that Ben was an offensive achilles heal and they would foul him intentionally to break up a play. Also, Ben's lack of offensive capability allows the other team to double team the Bulls post players and makes them even less effective in that area. So the Bulls have gotten worse in their weakest area and better in their strongest area.

How can it be that Detroit had one of the best offenses in the league with Ben wallace on their team, yet if he comes on the bulls, he'll have a negative impact on it? Hmmm, let's see, the Pistons had the worst scoring in the paint in the league, yet they won the most games in the league and were favorites to win it all last year. But that must not be true since a declining Ben wallace hurts a teams offense so much. Why don't you lay off the hatorade for awhile, and quit trying to make up these supposed "faults" to make yourself feel better about how bad your team is doing compared to the bulls.

If you were here in Chicago, you would know that all last season and in the offseason, Paxson has always said that we need to improve our length and athleticsm. He's said that statement a ton of times, but never has he said that we need to get a low post scorer. That's because most people who have a good knowledge of basketball know that you don't necessarily need a traditional low post scorer in order to score in the post. Look at phoenix without amare, they didn't have a post presence with amare and camby missing most of the season, but with their athleticsm they were still able to score. Improving the athleticsm and having people that can finish around the basket, can go a long way in getting points in the paint. The bulls had no one like that last year except for Deng, but now they have Deng, Thabo, Tyrus, Khryapa, and wallace. The length that they needed in the backcourt was accomplished by getting thabo and griffin. Paxson had his checklist of what the most important things he needed to accomplish and he got them. I'm sure he wouldn't mind having a traditional low post scorer, but it wasn't a necessary priority as you non bulls fans want to make assessments on by watching a few nationally televised games.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:21 AM   #14
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How can it be that Detroit had one of the best offenses in the league with Ben wallace on their team, yet if he comes on the bulls, he'll have a negative impact on it?

Um...Detroit had one of the best offenses because they had Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, and Tayshaun Prince. The offense was still one of one of the best even though they had problems scoring in the paint. Why did they have problems with scoring in the paint? Ben Wallace. Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun prince were ALWAYS double teamed and often reverted to kicking it out to one of the 4 good shooters, if not hanging around the perimeter themselves. With Ben gone I expect to see Detroit's points in the paint improve now that opponents will have to guard Nazr Mohammed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
most people who have a good knowledge of basketball know that you don't necessarily need a traditional low post scorer in order to score in the post. Look at phoenix without amare, they didn't have a post presence with amare and camby missing most of the season, but with their athleticsm they were still able to score.

Anyone who scores a lot in the post can be considered a post scorer. I never said anything about traditonal or non conventional types of scorers. The plain fact is Ben Wallace is not a good post scorer. That is the only place he can score...but he can't do it well. And comparing your situation with the Phoenix Suns is just ridiculous. They are the best offensive team in the league and Chicago is one of the worst. And you realize Camby and Amare aren't on the same team right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
Improving the athleticsm and having people that can finish around the basket, can go a long way in getting points in the paint.
are you trying to make the case that people who are athletic and finish around the basket are good at scoring in the paint? wow good one. thats as obvious as saying a shape with three sides and a pointy top is a triangle.

thabo is not a post scorer and I highly doubt scrubs like Khryrapa and Adrian Griffen will solve your problem. Tyrus Thomas will take some time to develop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
Why don't you lay off the hatorade for awhile, and quit trying to make up these supposed "faults" to make yourself feel better about how bad your team is doing compared to the bulls.

lay off the haterade? how about you lay off the denial? how about you make better arguments than comparing your team's offense to the Phoenix Suns or Detroit Pistons?

if you don't see that there is a problem with lack of offense in Chicago, specifically post scoring, then you are simply in denial. And I am very secure that my team is better than yours, but that has nothing to do with this argument. I'm not trying to pick apart the Bulls because I'm jealous. I'm disputing that Ben Wallace has made the Bulls one of the top teams in the East like all you blind Chicago fans keep saying. If Ben Wallace went to a team who was secure offensively but needed defensive firepower...I wouldnt have any problems saying he would make that team a whole lot better. But Chicago is a place that needed more scoring, not more defensive help.

I dispute the fact that Chicago will be able to win it like the Larry Brown Pistons used to. It just not possible to win with defense alone because of the ways the rules have changed these past 2 years. The Pistons used to grind it out and shut down the other teams scorers...but if you cant bump a guy like Wade or James without giving up 2 points at the FT line (or an and 1) how in the world can you play gritty grind it out defense? Ben Wallace wants to go back to the good old days where you could play the kind of defense he excells at and his lack of scoring ability could be easily overlooked...but this is the new NBA, and hes still the same old Ben, just a little older.

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Old 10-09-2006, 04:19 AM   #15
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LOL... he's only DPOY
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