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Old 07-07-2011, 03:08 PM   #1
wpdougie2180
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Default John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

John Elway is completely overrated, he was rated the 23rd best player of all time. Let's take a look at his career:

13 out of his 16 years he finished outside of the Top 5 in TDs thrown and out of the Top TEN 8 times

11 out of his 16 years he finished outside of the Top5 in Yards thrown and out of the Top 10 5 times

Never threw for 30 TDs in a season threw for 4000 only once.

Never 1st team all-pro (only 3 2nd team all-pros)

Biggest joke MVP in NFL history (Jerry Rice caught more TDs than he threw that year). Question how can you be the MVP but not 1st team all-pro?

Gifted starting QB spot on all 90s team over Young, Aikman, and Farve who were all better than him in the 90s.

Elways first three Superbowl runs were far more due to the ability of his defensive unit to create and force turnovers.

In 89, 43 turnovers, in 87, 46 turnovers, 86 was a down year for the D with just 35 turnovers forced

In those three seasons Elway threw for 20 TD's 0 times, completed more than 60% of his passes 0 times and was not the reason for the teams success.

1989, Elway, 18 TD, 18 INT, 8th ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 1st in scoring and created 43 turnovers, the Broncos went 11-5 and went to the Superbowl.

1990, Elway 15 TD, 14 INT, 16th ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 23rd in scoring and created 25 turnovers, the Broncos went 5-11

1991, Elway 13 TD, 12 INT, 12th ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 3rd in scoring and created 33 turnovers, the Broncos went 12-4

1992, Elway 10 TD, 17 INT, 22nd ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 19th in scoring and created 31 turnovers, Broncos went 8-8

It is clear, the Broncos went as their defense went, they ranked well, or created a good number of turnovers or both and the team did much better than when they did one or neither of those things, Elways performances are pretty even there outside of 1992, where the defense creating a solid amount of turnovers was able to pull up a bad season from thier QB.

Fallacy #1, Elway is the reason the Broncos made three SuperBowls in the late 80's, it was the underrated defense and their ability to create turnovers that was the key to the Broncos winning games and progressing to Superbowls.

Didn't win until he got all world RB Terrell Davis who in his 4 healthy year amassed more accolades than John Elway did in his whole 16 year career and avg. 142 yds rushing and 2 tds a game in his playoff career.

Last edited by wpdougie2180 : 07-07-2011 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 07-07-2011, 03:12 PM   #2
wpdougie2180
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

There's a reason that the Donks tried to replace Elawy in the 90s (Tommy Maddox anyone), it wasn't because he was carrying them to Superbowls.
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Old 07-07-2011, 05:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

Your post is FAIL

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpdougie2180
John Elway is completely overrated, he was rated the 23rd best player of all time. Let's take a look at his career:

13 out of his 16 years he finished outside of the Top 5 in TDs thrown and out of the Top TEN 8 times

11 out of his 16 years he finished outside of the Top5 in Yards thrown and out of the Top 10 5 times

Who cares? He wasn't surrounded by a lot of talent until his last couple years in the league. Despite a lack of talent and an inconsistent defense, he only had 1 losing season. He has the 9th best winning % of QBs with at least 70 wins, he's 1 or 2 in 4th quarter comebacks, 2nd in regular season wins, he's the only QB to start in 5 SBs, he's an SB MVP, he's tied for 2nd most pro bowl selections by a QB with 9, 4th in career passing yards and completions, and he's 5th in career passing TDs.

Quote:
Never threw for 30 TDs in a season threw for 4000 only once.

So what? Tom Brady has had only 2 seasons of more than 30 TDs. Troy Aikman never threw for more than 3,450 yards, never threw more than 23 TDs in a single season, and only threw 20+ TDs once. Joe Montana never threw 4,000+ yards, and only had 30+ TDs once. Steve Young only had 2 seasons of 4,000+ yards and 2 seasons of 30+ TDs. Jeff Garcia had 2 30+ TDs seasons within his first 3 years in the NFL while it took Steve Young 14 seasons to accomplish that, so does that make Garcia better?

Quote:
Biggest joke MVP in NFL history (Jerry Rice caught more TDs than he threw that year).

It was a strike-shortened season and odd things can happen (a kicker won the MVP in the previous strike-shortened season). Maybe it had to do with the Broncos making it to the SB while the Niners lost their first playoff game. Also, the fact that a WR has never won the AP MVP award. Everyone else named Rice as the MVP that year, though. Maybe you should go complain about the AP not liking WRs for some reason.

Quote:
Gifted starting QB spot on all 90s team over Young, Aikman, and Farve who were all better than him in the 90s.

They all had much more talent around them until Elway's last 3 years (even then those QBs still had better WRs). Maybe he shouldn't have been on the 1st team, but is it really a big deal?

Quote:
Elways first three Superbowl runs were far more due to the ability of his defensive unit to create and force turnovers.

You're telling me that defense is important to success in the NFL? Who would have ever thought that...

Quote:
86 was a down year for the D with just 35 turnovers forced

Their defense was ranked 17th in turnovers that year, so there goes that theory.

Quote:
In those three seasons Elway threw for 20 TD's 0 times, completed more than 60% of his passes 0 times and was not the reason for the teams success.

So what you're saying is that Elway did not single-handedly take them to 3 SBs? Well no fucking shit, genius. Also, in '87 he only played in 12 games and if he had played in 16 games, then he was on pace for 4,264 yards, 25 TDs and some pretty good rushing numbers, as well.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:05 PM   #4
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpdougie2180
John Elway is completely overrated, he was rated the 23rd best player of all time. Let's take a look at his career:

13 out of his 16 years he finished outside of the Top 5 in TDs thrown and out of the Top TEN 8 times

11 out of his 16 years he finished outside of the Top5 in Yards thrown and out of the Top 10 5 times

Never threw for 30 TDs in a season threw for 4000 only once.

Never 1st team all-pro (only 3 2nd team all-pros)

Biggest joke MVP in NFL history (Jerry Rice caught more TDs than he threw that year). Question how can you be the MVP but not 1st team all-pro?

Gifted starting QB spot on all 90s team over Young, Aikman, and Farve who were all better than him in the 90s.

Elways first three Superbowl runs were far more due to the ability of his defensive unit to create and force turnovers.

In 89, 43 turnovers, in 87, 46 turnovers, 86 was a down year for the D with just 35 turnovers forced

In those three seasons Elway threw for 20 TD's 0 times, completed more than 60% of his passes 0 times and was not the reason for the teams success.

1989, Elway, 18 TD, 18 INT, 8th ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 1st in scoring and created 43 turnovers, the Broncos went 11-5 and went to the Superbowl.

1990, Elway 15 TD, 14 INT, 16th ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 23rd in scoring and created 25 turnovers, the Broncos went 5-11

1991, Elway 13 TD, 12 INT, 12th ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 3rd in scoring and created 33 turnovers, the Broncos went 12-4

1992, Elway 10 TD, 17 INT, 22nd ranked scoring offense, Defense ranked 19th in scoring and created 31 turnovers, Broncos went 8-8

It is clear, the Broncos went as their defense went, they ranked well, or created a good number of turnovers or both and the team did much better than when they did one or neither of those things, Elways performances are pretty even there outside of 1992, where the defense creating a solid amount of turnovers was able to pull up a bad season from thier QB.

Fallacy #1, Elway is the reason the Broncos made three SuperBowls in the late 80's, it was the underrated defense and their ability to create turnovers that was the key to the Broncos winning games and progressing to Superbowls.

Didn't win until he got all world RB Terrell Davis who in his 4 healthy year amassed more accolades than John Elway did in his whole 16 year career and avg. 142 yds rushing and 2 tds a game in his playoff career.
You're nuts. Elway was one of the best. IMO he was the best QB I ever saw.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:34 PM   #5
KingBeasley08
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

Sorry bro but Elway is one of the GOATs. Although Rice shoulda been MVP and Young did deserve the All Decade team over him IMo
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:50 PM   #6
wpdougie2180
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
Your post is FAIL



Who cares? He wasn't surrounded by a lot of talent until his last couple years in the league. Despite a lack of talent and an inconsistent defense, he only had 1 losing season. He has the 9th best winning % of QBs with at least 70 wins, he's 1 or 2 in 4th quarter comebacks, 2nd in regular season wins, he's the only QB to start in 5 SBs, he's an SB MVP, he's tied for 2nd most pro bowl selections by a QB with 9, 4th in career passing yards and completions, and he's 5th in career passing TDs.



So what? Tom Brady has had only 2 seasons of more than 30 TDs. Troy Aikman never threw for more than 3,450 yards, never threw more than 23 TDs in a single season, and only threw 20+ TDs once. Joe Montana never threw 4,000+ yards, and only had 30+ TDs once. Steve Young only had 2 seasons of 4,000+ yards and 2 seasons of 30+ TDs. Jeff Garcia had 2 30+ TDs seasons within his first 3 years in the NFL while it took Steve Young 14 seasons to accomplish that, so does that make Garcia better?



It was a strike-shortened season and odd things can happen (a kicker won the MVP in the previous strike-shortened season). Maybe it had to do with the Broncos making it to the SB while the Niners lost their first playoff game. Also, the fact that a WR has never won the AP MVP award. Everyone else named Rice as the MVP that year, though. Maybe you should go complain about the AP not liking WRs for some reason.



They all had much more talent around them until Elway's last 3 years (even then those QBs still had better WRs). Maybe he shouldn't have been on the 1st team, but is it really a big deal?



You're telling me that defense is important to success in the NFL? Who would have ever thought that...



Their defense was ranked 17th in turnovers that year, so there goes that theory.



So what you're saying is that Elway did not single-handedly take them to 3 SBs? Well no fucking shit, genius. Also, in '87 he only played in 12 games and if he had played in 16 games, then he was on pace for 4,264 yards, 25 TDs and some pretty good rushing numbers, as well.

First he started 16 years of course he's going to rank pretty high on all time career stats

Secondly you talk about his lack of supporting cast would you say Brady had a great supporting cast before Moss and Welker or how about Jim Everett or Moon or Dave Krieg or Esiason or Kelly who all put up better numbers than he did. Which suggest his teams were good it wasn't all him which means he was overrated being selected as the 23rd best player of all time.

All the QBs you list were more accurate by a ton than Elway. He also happens to have a lower QB rating than them (lower than Michael Vick)


Rice was the first receiver to top 20 receiving TDs in a season, and he did it in just 12 games. The same season, Reggie White put up 21 sacks in over a 12 period game. If we're going by team value (and the positional [read:QB] bias), why not Dave Krieg? He had more total TDs than Elway and lead his team to the playoffs despite not having a top 10 defense like Elway did (the Broncos defense ranked 7th in the league to the Seahawk's 14th, and 3rd in turnovers forced to the Seahawk's 9th).
Also the MVP is voted on before the Super Bowl

86 is maybe the only year you could argue against the defense. Even then, the defense forced multiple turnovers in 8 of their regular season wins, and two defenders were selected as first team all-pro. 4 of the 6 games the Broncos scored over 30 (including the 38-36 shootout against the Raiders) There was at least one P/K return or defensive score.

In 87, the defense jumped up to 7th, and was 3rd in turnovers forced. They forced 5 or more turnovers in 5 games. They did not go a single game without forcing a turnover, and completely shut out two teams.

In 89, the defense was ranked 1st in the NFL, and ranked 2nd in turnovers forced. Meckenburg was once again first team all-pro, and a rookie Atwater contributed with 3 interceptions and over 100 tackles.



He was never the top QB in the league during his era. He was always behind the likes of Montana and Marino. He was behind Favre in the mid 90's. There really is nothing that John Elway did that separates him from Randall Cunningham as a Quarterback other than after a few seasons of mediocre play Cunningham was replaced. Elway was not. What separates Elway from Boomer Esiason or Jim Kelly as a Quarterback NOTHING. Except he has a great defense early on in his career that help carry the team to Superbowls, and then was given ELITE talent, which he helped guide to two more Superbowls and win them.

Remember Superbowls are a team achievement.

Would you call Donovan McNabb a top 100 player of all time?? If Not then why is Elway up there?? Because of MYTH. He had mystique. He had a story behind him. Elways reputation far outweighs his actual accomplishments.

If he was the best at his position he would have made at least one First Team All-Pro team in his career (ZERO), and he would have made more than 3 2nd Team All-Pro berths in his career.

He stole an MVP trophy from either Montana or Rice in 1987 (And that fact that he was the AP MVP, but not on the AP 1st Team All-Pro speaks volumes as to the slide in the back door way he managed to win the award).

On Offense he was the only guy there for a long while. And he posted mediocre seasons, he posted seasons where he threw more INT's than TD's and often times when he did mange to throw more TD's than INT's it was by one or two. Elite QB's like a Tom Brady, have that talent and they do far better than what Elway did. Dan Marino never had a running game, had an OK-Good OL, and made the Marks brothers himself, becasue he was an elite QB.

Becasue he was not the only good player on that team, that TEAM had a very good defense, that created turnovers, and the Denver Broncos Team went as they did not as John Elway did.

Another Question where do you rank Ben Roethlisberger in QBs today considering he has 2 Super Bowl wins and went to a third?

Last edited by wpdougie2180 : 07-08-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

ok im a youngling but this guy has some good points. any of the older elway fans wanna refute this cuz im starting to get the idea that elway was a not-as-good Roethlisberger
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: John Elway: Completely overated!!!!

You never watched him play. No quarterback is gonna put up stats playing under Dan Reeves. He bailed out that team more times in the 4th quarter than you can even count when Reeves finally took off the reigns.
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