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Old 08-08-2007, 05:42 AM   #1
OneWay
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Default Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Who do you take?
Now, Toni is obviously one of my all time favorite players and I loved everything about his game. He was the ultimate winner in Europe, did great in the NBA and to put it simply, he was a man for big games.
Incredibly intelligent, poised, clutch and you could add many more superlatives to his resume. Even though he was the 6th man for the Bulls, he was always in the game when the game was on the line.

Odom is more talented, more athletic, a better rebounder and a superior slasher but Toni has a huge advantage in playmaking, intelligence, shooting and I'd say leadership too.

Toni spent most of his NBA career playing as a 6th man for the Bulls so his stats are obviously inferior to Odom's who's never been anything less than a 2nd option on a team but when Toni was actually starting he put great stats as well, close to 19 ppg, 7 rpg, 5+ apg etc.

Stat wise, Odom wins. Intagables wise, Toni wins. Both have certain advantages over each other but I would have to pick Toni who I view as almost an ultimate intagables player, sort of like Manu today but better IMO. Odom, while more talented just doesn't have that factor and Toni's edge in playmaking, intelligence and clutch ability is too much to overlook. Then add achivements to the equation and it's a no brainer but let's compare players here, not their achivements.
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:55 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Kukoc!
He was simply great coming of the bench for the Bulls.
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Old 08-08-2007, 06:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Kukoc, no doubt.
For me he is the perfect player.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:31 AM   #4
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWay

Incredibly intelligent, poised, clutch

Yeah, except, you know, in the playoffs:

1996 postseason: 10.8 ppg on 39% shooting (-2.3 ppg and 10% FG from season averages)

1997 postseason: 7.9 ppg on 36% shooting (-5.3 ppg and 11% FG from season averages)

Kukoc was a good player, but let's not exaggerate.

Quote:
Odom is more talented, more athletic, a better rebounder and a superior slasher but Toni has a huge advantage in playmaking, intelligence, shooting and I'd say leadership too.

Agreed on all counts, but Odom is also worlds better defensively. Kukoc was a sieve, while Odom is very good both individually and team-wise, and a very versatile defender to boot.


It's hard to pick, really. It would depend on what you needed. Shooting is huge for any high-level team, so I guess you take Toni, but Odom has large edges in rebounding, slashing and overall athleticism, and defense. Kukoc has a moderate edge in passing, a significant edge in bball IQ, and a large edge in shooting. Tough call.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Lamar Odom

Kukoc was a glorified sixth man who was never the best sixth man in the league.
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

what an f-ing joke. Kukoc was a no-defense playing passer living off of MJ scraps.
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

kukoc was better passer and outside shooter, in everything else odom wins.
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Odom easily. Kukoc was a solid role player who arrived in the NBA after his prime. Odom is so much better defensively (just ask Shawn Marion). As far as basketball IQ, did they publish the results somewhere we can all see them? Odom is an excellent passer, and that is usually one of the key marks of a high basketball IQ.

Odom has averaged 4.6 assists over his career in 37:17 minutes per game for his career.
Kukoc has averaged 3.7 assists in 26:18 minutes per game for his career

Not too far apart are they?
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormser
Odom is an excellent passer, and that is usually one of the key marks of a high basketball IQ.

Odom has averaged 4.6 assists over his career in 37:17 minutes per game for his career.
Kukoc has averaged 3.7 assists in 26:18 minutes per game for his career

Not too far apart are they?

Well, when you get the stats by 40 min (which is easier to compare), you have Kukoc with 5.6 apg (13 seasons) and Odom with 4.9 (in 8 seasons). Who has now higher IQ?
It is true Odom defends much better than Kukoc but it's not that Toni had no deffense.
As always, it is difficult to say who is better, but the feelings I had watching Kukoc playing were much more intense than the ones I have watching Odom. I have seen him in Europe and in the NBA and, man, when he was in the court basketball was somewhat different for me.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Wow

First of all, what's with the defense talk? Neither was more than average defensively. Yes, Odom is probably better due to athleticism but he's far from a difference maker defensively, come on, you ****in kidding me. He's an average defender at best.

Second, no assist numbers are not an indication of bball iq. If that was the case, would you consider Steve Francis, a former 7-8 apg guy a high IQ player? I know for sure I wouldn't.

Kukoc was so much smarter that it isn't even worth discussing it.

There's a reason why Clipper fans nicknamed Odom "Odumb".

Odom can pass but he can't really run the offense and definitely isn't much of a high IQ player or a leader.

Like I said, his advantages are:

Slashing, athleticism, rebounding and to some degree, defense.

Toni OTOH has an upper hand in shooting, playmaking, intelligence and clutch ability.

I don't think there's a way to deny any of this.

Of course some of you may look at them and easily conclude that Odom is better but that's a false image in your head.
Odom so far has only been the first and the second option while Toni was the 6th man on the greatest team ever.

Odom, too would be a 6th man on the Bulls and I bet everything that Phil would always prefer Kukoc for that role who as Loki said, was more of a high caliber team player.

And don't be mistaken, Toni was able to put up stats, too. 18.8 ppg, 7 rpg, 5.3 apg doesn't sound bad to me. Or 19.6 ppg and 6.2 apg at the Hawks even though he was past his prime by then.

And using Shawn ****ing Marion as a reference? Shawn What a joke. That's the best possible matchup Odom will ever find for him and still Marion always got his against Odom. Odom never shut him down.
Seriously, if Odom was anything more than average defensively, the Lakers would be just a bit more than the worst defensive team in the league but the fact is that no one really makes a difference on that team on defense. Not to say Toni was a stopper but even if Odom has defensive advantage over him it definitely isn't anything to write home about and that's for sure.

I know for sure that Lakers are missing some of the things that Toni was good at. It would be cool to have a shooter like him who I assume Kobe would trust more than Odom and another thing is that Toni could be a trusted ballhandler and a cool head when the game is on the line. Usually, Odom can't be counted on in those situations.

Odom might be a good answer but to say it isn't even close is beyond stupid.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWay
Wow

First of all, what's with the defense talk? Neither was more than average defensively. Yes, Odom is probably better due to athleticism but he's far from a difference maker defensively, come on, you ****in kidding me. He's an average defender at best.

This is a joke, right? Odom is at least 2x the defender Kukoc was. Apparently everyone but yourself realizes this.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Quote:
Agreed on all counts, but Odom is also worlds better defensively. Kukoc was a sieve, while Odom is very good both individually and team-wise, and a very versatile defender to boot.
I think you're overrating Odom's defense a bit, he's decent, I wouldn't say he's anything more.

Odom's better though. Above average teams have been built around Odom. I believe that given the right coach, he can be the centerpiece of a contender. (Mainly because I think he would respond to all that responsibility and trust like he isn't doing with the constant suppression he's getting in LA). If Dirk can why not Odom? Not saying he's as good, but he could be, and nobody's tried it yet.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Quote:
If that was the case, would you consider Steve Francis, a former 7-8 apg guy a high IQ player? I know for sure I wouldn't.
I don't think Francis ever averaged more than 6 apg at the PG spot, which is pretty woeful for his position, therefore indicative of his bball IQ wouldn't you say?
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

^ How about Marbury then? 8 apg career guy. You know what I mean.

But anyway, it's freaking ridiculous how overrated Odom is on this board.
He could be the centerpiece of a contender? This must rank up there with some other dumb **** I've read on this site. Amazing. I'm seriously speechless.....wow.
I hope you were kidding GeeWiz. I sure hope you were. Either that or you like Odom way too much, like in unhealthy dosage.

And Loki, I never said Kukoc was a good defender but the way you talk you make it sound like Odom is actually a good defender.
He isn't. He's average. He's the third best defender on the Lakers after Kobe and Kwame who may be somewhat above average but both are limited, Kobe by his role on offense and position, Kwame by his IQ or lack there of.
Do you think Odom is more than an average defender? Because you know...he isn't.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:07 AM   #15
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Default Re: Lamar Odom vs Toni Kukoc

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWay
And Loki, I never said Kukoc was a good defender but the way you talk you make it sound like Odom is actually a good defender.

I know you didn't say that Kukoc was a good defender, but I disagree: I think Odom is a good defender, especially team-wise. His interior rotations on penetration are excellent, for instance, and he has great lateral movement out on the perimeter. He's a versatile defender who can cover the 2-5 spots. Kukoc couldn't adequately guard any position -- he'd get beat off the dribble by 2/3's and posted up at will by 4/5's. There's no contest between them defensively imo. I thought this was common knowledge.
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