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Old 06-25-2008, 09:11 AM   #1
jtfacts
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Default The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

I have long ago noticed that college talent many times does not translate to NBA talent. There is a difference between the characteristics that make a great college player and a great pro player. Unlike some other people who post on these forums, I will bring you evidence. Let's look at Naismith College Players of the Year from 1986 to 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismit...r_of_the_Year). I left out the last two years to give these player some time to establish themselves.

Of these 20 players, only 2, THAT'S RIGHT 2, can be considered NBA greats - David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Sure there are some who made the all star team once or twice (only four additional players) but most became role players. They did not repeat their college heroics in the Pros.

Out of these 20 players, the shorter ones fared far worse than the taller ones. Johnny Dawkins, Calbert Cheaney, T.J Ford, Jameer Nelson, Jay Williams, and JJ Redick were all great players in college. None of them were or will be, repeat All Stars of the NBA.

Anyone who responds to me, please come with evidence and not emotion. I have a bias against short players in the NBA (not college, where they thrive). The NBA is a different place, where Defense is very important. Short players (below 6'0") CAN NOT play defense well enough in the NBA to change my view of them as career backups.
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:28 AM   #2
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

So what's your point exactly? That there isn't much positive correllation between "being college player of the year" and "becoming a great nba player". I think that's definitely true, but doesn't have much to do with players' hight. Just like there are small guards who won't make it in NBA, there's an endless list of great college big men who don't make it as a pro.
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

One question...what do Jay Williams and Johnnie Dawkins have to do with your argument if they were 6'2" pgs? And Calbert Cheaney if he was 6'7"?
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

The Naismith Award isn't given to the best player in college basketball anymore. It is a popularity contest and is meaningless.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

I have two points to make in this thread.

Point 1 - Many times college talent doesn't translate to Professional talent - Calbert Cheney et al.


Point 2 - If you are going to choose a draft pick, choose a taller player , especially a taller guard. Not one of the Naismith POTY guards were chosen to play in any NBA all star games.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:24 AM   #6
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtfacts
I have two points to make in this thread.

Point 1 - Many times college talent doesn't translate to Professional talent - Calbert Cheney et al.


Point 2 - If you are going to choose a draft pick, choose a taller player , especially a taller guard. Not one of the Naismith POTY guards were chosen to play in any NBA all star games.
I think Dasher made a good point. The Naismith is a popularity award. Had it been given to the best players, Beasley would have won it last year.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtfacts
I have two points to make in this thread.

Point 1 - Many times college talent doesn't translate to Professional talent - Calbert Cheney et al.


Point 2 - If you are going to choose a draft pick, choose a taller player , especially a taller guard. Not one of the Naismith POTY guards were chosen to play in any NBA all star games.

1. This is pretty obvious

2. I think there are flops of all shapes and sizes. You can easily list hundred tall guards who flopped from the past few drafts.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:53 AM   #8
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

I am not sold on Beasley either. He is not a NBA power forward, but a small forward. He will not be able to defend the bigger men in the league, but at small forward, he will dominate. He is the same size as Lebron James. I just hope that the team that finally picks him will place him in the correct position.

Beasley is a prime example of my argument of college and Pros being different. Beasley is a PF in college and SF in Pros.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Theres hundreds of college teams with stars on each team , but which team doesnt have a star? Then you go to the nba with the best of the best and fall back into the crowd. I've always noticed this and it makes me laugh when some of my friends say that college is better than the NBA.

I'm looking forwards to Tyler Hansbrough entering the draft next year because around here in NC everybody wants to have sex with him and obviously thinks that he will dominate the nba. I still say he will be a bust in the nba.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

jtfacts, I have a question for you. Who would you consider to be the top 10 or 20 players in the NBA? You don't have to be exact, but just a rough list.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Good question Monthh. I personally like all around players that can do more than one thing. Here is my list, in no particular order:

Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Tim Duncan
Dwayne Wade (aka Little Lebron)
Paul Pierce
Tayshaun Prince
Chris Bosh
Richard Hamilton
Shawn Marrion


Formerly a huge fan of Jason Kidd but now he is getting old. I am still a fan, but he is not one of the best now.

Now you may notice some NBA stars that are not on my list. The reason for this is an aspect of their game I do not like:

Carlos Boozer: Too short to hold the bigger power forwards in the game. Yes he get's his points, but he gives them back too.

Amare: Needs to rebound more and play better defense

Dwight Howard - He probably will be my favorite player for years to come, but he needs to be more assertive and score the ball more. Do you realize Hedo Turk. shoots the ball 3 more times per game than Dwight. This needs to stop. I think Dwight can be a 28pts, 12 rebounds per game guy. He reminds me so much of my Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird arguments in the mid 80's. I always said that Larry was the better player and Magic could be the better player if he just asserted himself. Magic eventually did assert himself and I hope Dwight does the same.

Shaq - too old now and I don't care what he raps about, he never was as good as Kareem.

Melo - either rebound the ball more or assist more. Don't just score the ball and that's it.

Gilbert - Does he know what an assist is?
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Okay, good you gave me 19 names of players that you admit are among the best players in the NBA. Now how many of those players were juniors or seniors in college when they came into the NBA? Maybe half, with Wade and Marion being transfers and Prince probably not being in most people's top 20. Pierce lost out to Jamison who is a very good player as well. So basically Prince (lost to Jason Williams whos career was cut short), RIP (lost to Brand), and Deron Williams had a shot and lost POY. Basically, I would give you one player in your top 20, Deron Williams, who ended up clearly being better in the NBA than the guy who won POY and was clearly better in college.

How many of those 20 Naismith Award winners were juniors and seniors as well? All but a few.

So basically, my point is that in order to win the top award in college basketball, you need to stick around for a few years. Maybe that is a flaw in the voting if it is always juniors and seniors, but if that is the case then your point in this topic is worthless. More likely, the top NBA players are good enough to leave after high school or their freshman or sophomore years. That doesn't mean Kobe, LeBron, Dwight, KG, Bosh, Shaq, and others wouldn't have been All-Americans and players of the year. Plus you look at Shaq losing to Leattner and Beasley losing to Hansbrough and you see that the proven college stars have a much better shot.

Plus, I like how you don't include past 20 years when college players didn't leave so early and Ewing, Sampson, Jordan, Walton, Abdul-Jabar, Bird, Thompson, and Pistol Pete all won the award. I will give you that it is a different game today and won't make that part of my argument, but it is interesting anyway.

And one more intersting thing to note is that after they force freshman to play a year, Durant wins the award and Beasley finishes second. I think that proves that there is a very, very good case for LeBron, Kobe, KG, Jermaine O'Neal, T-Mac, and others to have won that award if they played for only a couple of seasons. Plus you have a bunch of guys like Yao, Dirk, Manu, and Parker who obviously are top players and couldn't have even played in college. That is why that list looks looks so bad. Of the top 30 players only a few of them had a legit shot to actually win the award.

Last edited by monthh : 06-25-2008 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Chris Paul wasnt that amazing in college, he was alright but I never immagined him being a star, maybe a 6th man at most going out of college.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickness
Chris Paul wasnt that amazing in college, he was alright but I never immagined him being a star, maybe a 6th man at most going out of college.
He just wasn't a huge scoring guy. All his other stats were off the charts.

15.2 ppg, 6.6 apg, 2.4 spg, 45 fg%, 47 3fg% as a sophomore and that blazing speed.
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: The MISPERCEPTION OF COLLEGE TALENT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickness
Chris Paul wasnt that amazing in college, he was alright but I never immagined him being a star, maybe a 6th man at most going out of college.


What? Were you watching some other Chris Paul that I? The one I remember was a first team all-american, ACC freshman of the year, All-ACC defensive team and bascially one of the best guards in the college game even though he left after his sophmore season.
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