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Old 08-13-2008, 02:30 AM   #1
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Default Why Are We So Disrespected?

Every thread this off-season in the main forum, asking posters to rank the Eastern Conference this upcoming season, we are always ranked last by most posters, and when I try to ask most of them why they rank us so low, the idiots can't even give a reasonable response except for, "you guys got rid of JO, and are now starting over". That's the best they got? Did they forget that last year, JO didn't even play, and when he did he threw off our on the court chemistry, taking bad shots, not making the extra pass, or turning the ball over? Do they forget that Travis Diener was our starter for most of the season, yet we still managed 36 wins?

Then I ask them to explain how a team that has gotten MUCH better, is going to digress, and they can't do it, they just can't come back with a sensible response.

Why no love for us, we're Indiana dammit, we're basketball, we're what basketball is all about.

Why the hate?
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Honestly, your team is not very good. They are ranked so low bc they fail to make the playoffs and traded away their franchise player away for a pg who gets just as injured. They have no identity. Too many swing men. No post players whatsoever. Who are their starting big men? Foster and Murphy? Maybe Rasho? Thats one of the weakest front lines in the league. They are stopping no one in the paint. And who is going to score? Granger is solid but he is not a top tier scorer and Dunleavy, Ford are not exactly known for scoring. Pacers have a lot of missing pieces and are not going to make any noise in the weak East next year IMO. What is their plan by the way? Are they rebuilding? Are they trying to win? Whatever they are trying to do, they need to commit to one or the the other
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas
Honestly, your team is not very good. They are ranked so low bc they fail to make the playoffs and traded away their franchise player away for a pg who gets just as injured. They have no identity. Too many swing men. No post players whatsoever. Who are their starting big men? Foster and Murphy? Maybe Rasho? Thats one of the weakest front lines in the league. They are stopping no one in the paint. And who is going to score? Granger is solid but he is not a top tier scorer and Dunleavy, Ford are not exactly known for scoring. Pacers have a lot of missing pieces and are not going to make any noise in the weak East next year IMO. What is their plan by the way? Are they rebuilding? Are they trying to win? Whatever they are trying to do, they need to commit to one or the the other

The JO/TJ injury concerns. JO is chronically injured. Some people say it's because he was on a bad team so he "didn't want to play," I don't think that was the case, but if it were, what sort of attitude is that for a max contract player? KG toiled away for years on horrible Minnesota teams and never milked any pseudo injuries. While obviously not an ideal situation, Ford's injuries are all the back condition, and has been told by multiple specialists that he can continue his NBA career unabated. If this had been a straight up one for one swap, disregarding talent level and basing it strictly on injury concerns, I could see the argument that they're near equal injury risks, but it wasn't.

Their starting bigs are the same ones, Foster and Muphy who had them a game short of the playoffs last season. Our record was better WITHOUT JO last year than with him. Indy basically plays a four-out offense, there's very rarely more than one man in the paint. While I would like to see a traditional 4 on the roster, when you're rebuilding it doesn't happen in a year. We have an adequate amount of front court depth for our system and well suited players for it.

As far as scoring, again, the same people who scored last year, with the addition of 14-16 from Ford. I'll be very, very surprsied if Granger doesn't put up at least 22ppg on 45%+. People really don't understand how good this kid is. Check his monthly splits last year. November and December they were down because JO played and was force fed the ball to take his soft 8 foot bricks. When his opportunitis re-presented themselves after another JO injury his scoring went up every month. You can literally see the leaps and bounds he's made throughout each season and offseaons. He used to have no jump shot, now he's deadly from everywhere. He used to have no ability to take a man off the dribble, now he's above average. He hasn't shown it since his rookie year, but he has a very solid post game, and I expect it to reemerge this season.

No, we aren't going to stop anyone in the paint. But our perimeter defense is improved DRASTICALLY. We actually have guards, in Jack and Rush, who will be able to stay in front of their man now. If you cannot pressure the ball, you're not going to win.

The plan is pretty obviousl, rebuild w/o gutting. Ford is 25, Granger is 25, Rush is 23, and Hibbert, even having played a full 4 years at GU is only 21, Jack 23, Dunleavy 27, Shawne Williams 22. Before the JO deal we'd have been hard pressed to extend Granger as we were above the cap and don't have the money to go above the luxury threshold. We're in position to be ~23 million under lux tax threshold next off-season, probably around 14/15 after a Granger extension. That figure inflates to a potential ~30 million if we could deal Tinsley for an expirer like Eric Snow. Rasho and Foster are 15 million in expirings who could have value to contenders near the deadline and could net more picks and/or young pieces. If acquiring young players who fit your style while putting yourself in an obviously much better financial situation, while not putting yourself in the position to struggle to win 25 games and further alienate a disillusioned fanbase isn't a plan, I have no idea what is.

Now, am I saying I expect a 4 seed or something crazy? Absolutely not. But I see no reason they can't be a potential .500 team and battle for the 8 seed.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Pacers is my number 3 team right now...but this is what I think happened to them. Reggie miller's last year there was an amazing amazing team. When he left i think they were very strong and nba championship contenders. That whole RON ARTEST situation really F'D up the pacers and broke up a team that could have won it all. I mean think about it, you had JO, RON artest, Stephen Jackson, a healthy tinsley, basically this squad was sick. I think it took a few years for this organization to recover from the pacers/ detroit situation. But getting rid of JO was the first step in starting over. Jaamal Tinsley should be next. Basically Y'all need Danny Granger to be the face of the franchise, he really needs to step it up for that role. T.J. FORD was a good pickup and if he does what hes supposed to do I think this team will be pretty good. I feel that you guys are missing like 2 or 3 more pieces. Either that or some of these younger guys are going to have to really step it up. Basically Indiana will be fighting for a playoff spot this year. If you add a big man who is strong and has good D...then the tables might be turned. I say y'all should try and pickup someone like Rasheed Wallace or someone like him...
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas
Honestly, your team is not very good. They are ranked so low bc they fail to make the playoffs and traded away their franchise player away for a pg who gets just as injured.

They were one game off of making the playoffs playing with an ineffective Jermaine O'Neal and Travis Diener starting at point guard for half the season... If they could get 36 wins last year, they should be able to get around the same number this year -- they're playing with basically the same group of players as last year, except they've got Ford, who yes, gets injured, but he's a solid passing point guard and is a big improvement over Tinsley. They also got Jarrett Jack via trade, so they have much better insurance at point guard. At third string, they've got Diener, who's had half a season of starter's experience at point guard. They've improved well at point; even if Ford gets injured, they have better depth if one of their lead guards gets injured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas
They have no identity. Too many swing men.


Since when has great depth ever been a bad thing? Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy, and Danny Granger. Marquis Daniels can be included in that group as well, though I thought he played more point guard and shooting guard last year. That's too many swingmen to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas
No post players whatsoever. Who are their starting big men? Foster and Murphy? Maybe Rasho? Thats one of the weakest front lines in the league. They are stopping no one in the paint.

They were able to hold their own last year with Murphy, Foster, Ike Diogu, and David Harrison last year, with a measly 13/6 from Jermaine for half a season. Now, they've got Murphy, Foster, Hibbert, and Nesterovic, with the versatility to at times go small with Ford, Rush, Dunleavy, Granger, and a center of their choice. It's a very average group of players, but they should be tough inside and will be solid on the boards. Foster averaged 8.7 rebounds per game, Murphy averaged 7.2, Nesterovic averaged 4.8 in 20 minutes a game of play, and Hibbert should be good for 6 or 7, more than that if he gets a lot of playing time. They're not great at shotblocking, but Hibbert should help them in that area. Scoring won't be great, but it should be adequate. Each of these guys are average or above average scorers in the post, and Murphy has shooting range as well, so he can stretch the floor.

It isn't a frightening group, but it's underrated and they'll often outwork and outrebound their opponents. They've got great depth at center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas
And who is going to score? Granger is solid but he is not a top tier scorer and Dunleavy, Ford are not exactly known for scoring.

What? Granger and Dunleavy both averaged 19+ ppg last year... I agree that he's not a top tier scorer, but he and Dunleavy, with Rush coming off the bench, provide a very solid perimeter scoring trio. Hibbert, Foster, and Nesterovic can get garbage buckets inside, and Murphy was a 12 ppg scorer last year. Nesterovic can give you 7 or 8, Hibbert about the same, and Foster's good for 4 or 5, but he makes up for his offensive deficiencies by averaging an astounding 3.4 offensive rebounds per game in only 24.5 minutes a game of play, tying him for fifth in the league in offensive rebounds per game. The guys in spots 1-4 all averaged 30 minutes per game or more to get those numbers. Foster is a great rebounder, and he gives the Pacers plenty of second chance opportunities. At point, I consider Ford an underrated offensive player. The guy was playing 23 minutes a game last year splitting time with Jose Calderon; both of these guys may be top ten point guards in the league, top fifteen for sure. With little playing time, he was still able to average 12 ppg. I think that's about 15 ppg if he's playing 30 mpg, and he's also great at setting other players up for points, with a career average of 6.9 assists per game. Now that he's on a team in which he's the undisputed starter, I think he should be able to average 15/8 easily. He's got some solid shooters to pass to, and he should run the Pacers' offense better than Tinsley did last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas

Pacers have a lot of missing pieces and are not going to make any noise in the weak East next year IMO. What is their plan by the way? Are they rebuilding? Are they trying to win? Whatever they are trying to do, they need to commit to one or the the other

I think it's pretty obvious they're rebuilding; when you trade your franchise player for a young point guard, and you're shopping your former starting point guard, who has a terrible contract, it looks like rebuilding to me. The thing is though, they're able to rebuild while still winning. Dunleavy (28), Granger (25), and Ford (25), the team's three best players, are all under 30 years old and have their best years ahead of them. Brandon Rush and Roy Hibbert are two other building blocks for the future that they've added, as well as Jack, and perhaps Daniels and Troy Murphy as well. They've also added some expiring contracts, so that makes it pretty obvious to me they're rebuilding, or at least retooling their young trio with younger players to build with. Whatever you would like to call it, they're getting younger and they've got a bright future ahead of them, but it might look like they're not committing to one or the other because they're also able to compete now.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by marny_navis
They were one game off of making the playoffs playing with an ineffective Jermaine O'Neal and Travis Diener starting at point guard for half the season... If they could get 36 wins last year, they should be able to get around the same number this year -- they're playing with basically the same group of players as last year, except they've got Ford, who yes, gets injured, but he's a solid passing point guard and is a big improvement over Tinsley. They also got Jarrett Jack via trade, so they have much better insurance at point guard. At third string, they've got Diener, who's had half a season of starter's experience at point guard. They've improved well at point; even if Ford gets injured, they have better depth if one of their lead guards gets injured.



Since when has great depth ever been a bad thing? Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy, and Danny Granger. Marquis Daniels can be included in that group as well, though I thought he played more point guard and shooting guard last year. That's too many swingmen to you?



They were able to hold their own last year with Murphy, Foster, Ike Diogu, and David Harrison last year, with a measly 13/6 from Jermaine for half a season. Now, they've got Murphy, Foster, Hibbert, and Nesterovic, with the versatility to at times go small with Ford, Rush, Dunleavy, Granger, and a center of their choice. It's a very average group of players, but they should be tough inside and will be solid on the boards. Foster averaged 8.7 rebounds per game, Murphy averaged 7.2, Nesterovic averaged 4.8 in 20 minutes a game of play, and Hibbert should be good for 6 or 7, more than that if he gets a lot of playing time. They're not great at shotblocking, but Hibbert should help them in that area. Scoring won't be great, but it should be adequate. Each of these guys are average or above average scorers in the post, and Murphy has shooting range as well, so he can stretch the floor.

It isn't a frightening group, but it's underrated and they'll often outwork and outrebound their opponents. They've got great depth at center.



What? Granger and Dunleavy both averaged 19+ ppg last year... I agree that he's not a top tier scorer, but he and Dunleavy, with Rush coming off the bench, provide a very solid perimeter scoring trio. Hibbert, Foster, and Nesterovic can get garbage buckets inside, and Murphy was a 12 ppg scorer last year. Nesterovic can give you 7 or 8, Hibbert about the same, and Foster's good for 4 or 5, but he makes up for his offensive deficiencies by averaging an astounding 3.4 offensive rebounds per game in only 24.5 minutes a game of play, tying him for fifth in the league in offensive rebounds per game. The guys in spots 1-4 all averaged 30 minutes per game or more to get those numbers. Foster is a great rebounder, and he gives the Pacers plenty of second chance opportunities. At point, I consider Ford an underrated offensive player. The guy was playing 23 minutes a game last year splitting time with Jose Calderon; both of these guys may be top ten point guards in the league, top fifteen for sure. With little playing time, he was still able to average 12 ppg. I think that's about 15 ppg if he's playing 30 mpg, and he's also great at setting other players up for points, with a career average of 6.9 assists per game. Now that he's on a team in which he's the undisputed starter, I think he should be able to average 15/8 easily. He's got some solid shooters to pass to, and he should run the Pacers' offense better than Tinsley did last year.



I think it's pretty obvious they're rebuilding; when you trade your franchise player for a young point guard, and you're shopping your former starting point guard, who has a terrible contract, it looks like rebuilding to me. The thing is though, they're able to rebuild while still winning. Dunleavy (28), Granger (25), and Ford (25), the team's three best players, are all under 30 years old and have their best years ahead of them. Brandon Rush and Roy Hibbert are two other building blocks for the future that they've added, as well as Jack, and perhaps Daniels and Troy Murphy as well. They've also added some expiring contracts, so that makes it pretty obvious to me they're rebuilding, or at least retooling their young trio with younger players to build with. Whatever you would like to call it, they're getting younger and they've got a bright future ahead of them, but it might look like they're not committing to one or the other because they're also able to compete now.
Great post.

I can't add anything that you didn't already state, except for the fact that you said Troy Murphy averaged 12 ppg last year, which is TRUE, but looking at his numbers post all-star break when JO missed his string of games, he flourished, providing us with over 16 ppg and over 8 rpg. I think he could duplicate those numbers for the whole year, and maybe even better. He's our main big right now, and his confidence is only getting higher.

Again, I think people who didn't watch many Pacer games last year don't understand the fluidity that this team played with, thy played as a TEAM, as a unit, and that's what I love about them, we're the underdogs this year, the only thing we can do is surpass everyone's expectations.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

It's good that your disrespected, because now if you do good this year, you can laugh back at all those guys faces who ranked you so low.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

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It's good that your disrespected, because now if you do good this year, you can laugh back at all those guys faces who ranked you so low.


How sweet it will be.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Bulls fan here. I can't figure it out either. You guys have some decent pieces in place. Young pieces. I didn't like the trade that much....but oh well. Did you guys get a draft pick out of it??? If anything you guys have players who are well respected not to mention some skills! Good luck this year!
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

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How sweet it will be.

Yeah, and if the doubters are right, you'll have a high pick in the draft anyway; it's a win-win.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

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Originally Posted by vmdv12
Bulls fan here. I can't figure it out either. You guys have some decent pieces in place. Young pieces. I didn't like the trade that much....but oh well. Did you guys get a draft pick out of it??? If anything you guys have players who are well respected not to mention some skills! Good luck this year!
We got Roy Hibbert out of the deal, so yeah, we got a draft pick.

I'm not sure how you don't like the trade for us.

Hibbert
Rasho
Ford
Baston (who's an underrated energy guy)
+
the cap relief we'll be getting

for

JO

We won, and everyone will realize this next year.
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:44 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Lakers fan here, but my best buddy is a Pacers fan and we talk about it all the time.

Honestly, I think you are in the best position you have been in since Reggie retired.

Cap space and a few good young players under 25 who can grow together.

I think your strongest point team wise is that you don't have what would classically be noted as a "SUPERSTAR" calibre player, don't get me wrong as I think Danny Granger is an awesome player and probably your best right now, but typically he would not be classed as a "SUPERSTAR".

Good PG and a backup who could start in lieu of an injury, great perimiter players and someone who could turn out to be a very solid starting C in a year or so depending on how hard he works, the only real thing you are lacking is that low block 4 man, Murphy is not the answer and that's for sure.

If I was a Pacers fan, I would just accept the hating for another year or so, because if this team stays together or manages to pulloff a good trade for a legit 4 man or drafts well again next year, you could be the East's version of the up and comin Blazers, then the haters will have to stand up and pay attention.

Just an opinion, I think a Drew Gooden type 4 man in a frontline with Hibbert would be a good 4/5 combo.

How's that for positive and unbiased opinion?
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

we have been underdogs for the last few yearsand our team is still in a transition phase. don't look for us to be down for long.
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why Are We So Disrespected?

Big Dogg,

Great post.

I agree, I believe we're in the best position since Reggie retired, and also, if we could pull off a quality 4 for Tinsley who we're shopping ATM, then again, we would be in a great position for a playoff run.

I think Brandon Rush is going to contribute right away, he's a very mature player.
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:17 AM   #15
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Big Dogg,

Great post.

I agree, I believe we're in the best position since Reggie retired, and also, if we could pull off a quality 4 for Tinsley who we're shopping ATM, then again, we would be in a great position for a playoff run.

I think Brandon Rush is going to contribute right away, he's a very mature player.


Appreciate the props.

Rush will give you quality bench minutes and should see sufficient court time when he comes on, for either Granger or Dunleavy or whoever can then move to the 3 whilst he plays the 2.

I really hope Hibbert proves to be the surprise package for you guys, he has potential and could be your C for many years to come, you also have quality backup bigs in Foster and Nesterovic off the bench when Hibbert becomes a starter.

With a quality 4 you guys will be strong in the east.
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