Where do you guys typically rate Scottie Pippen as a player?

[3ball]

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[COLOR="White"]..............[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]THE CURRENT DEFENSIVE 3 SECONDS RULE[/COLOR]


MJ was POY in college over bigs like Hakeem, Ewing and others where a TRUE ZONE was allowed.

However, today's game is nowhere near a true zone because zone defense is not allowed inside the 16 x 19 foot paint.. Inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" (about 3 feet) of an offensive player and follow him around the paint, or vacate the paint - defenders can't stand in the lane with no one else around (within "armslength").. "Armslength" is the strictest defense possible other than making defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the policy governing the most important part of the floor: the paint.

Otoh, defenders in previous eras were allowed to stay in the paint when their man was far out of armslength - Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to stand in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. This condition was always occurring because of the lack of spacing.

[COLOR="Blue"]2b[/COLOR]. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Blue"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

To summarize - defenders in today's game aren't allowed to remain in the paint when there's no one else around, while previous era defenders could.





Notice Speights on baseline, left of the rim - ideally, he'd be waiting under the rim the whole time to contest Lebron.. But today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (about 3 feet).. So Speights has walk to AWAY from the rim to remain within armslength of his man, which prevents him from contesting Lebron.

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side.. So in the clip above, Speights would've been waiting under the rim to contest Lebron and force him into a tougher shot.
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[TheMan]

But most importantly, I can't stress how much better McHale was offensively - he would've been a perennial top 3-4 scorer every year if he wasn't playing alongside 3 other all-stars..

There's a reason why Barkley keeps saying McHale was the best player he ever played against.
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You know Barkley played against MJ too, right?

[3ball]

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[COLOR="White"]..............................................[/COLOR][COLOR="Green"]Spacing[/COLOR]


The stats show that teams attempted little or no 3-pointers in previous eras, so offensive players were not spacing the floor, including the weakside - with no weakside spacing, all 5 defenders remained on the strongside, and therefore closest to help on strongside action:






Otoh, today's game uses weakside spacing to reduce the number of strongside defenders.. Help defenders are now on the weakside and furthest from helping on strongside action:





Weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders, which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated - weakside spacing necessitates strongside flooding.

Otoh, as the first GIF showed, weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders didn't need to leave the strongside.. With defenders remaining on the strongside, the strongside was already flooded and today's "strongside flood" strategy was not necessary.. 5-defender strongsides were standard.

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, and legal paint-camping, and therefore requiring more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides, which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no paint-camping, no physicality.. The highest levels of offensive sophistication simply aren't needed for the beginner version of the game.
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[97 bulls]

But most importantly, I can't stress how much better McHale was offensively - he would've been a perennial top 3-4 scorer every year if he wasn't playing alongside 3 other all-stars..

There's a reason why Barkley keeps saying McHale was the best player he ever played against.
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Oh come on. Jordan, Grant, and Armstong together took just as many if not more shot as the Celtics top shot takers outside of Mchale.

Barkley said Mchale was the toughest to guard.

You love taking quotes and twisting them

[3ball]

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[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][color="green"]Which strongside scenario is harder to score on: [/color]


[color=red]WITH weakside spacing[/color] - Being against Iggy with all 4 help defenders on weakside and [color=red]furthest[/color] to help on strongside action:






[COLOR=blue]WITHOUT weakside spacing[/COLOR] - Being against Rodman with all 4 help defenders on strongside and [color=blue]closest[/color] to help on strongside action:





Weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders (1st GIF), which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated.

Otoh, without weakside spacing (seen in 2nd GIF), defenders just remained on the strongside and closest to help on strongside action.. With defenders staying on strongside, the strongside was [color="red"]already flooded[/color] with all 5 defenders...

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, and legal paint-camping, and therefore requiring more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

The fully-flooded strongsides of previous eras is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting porous strongsides, including 1-defender strongsides (first GIF)... Porous strongside defense is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no paint-camping, no physicality.. The highest levels of offensive sophistication simply aren't needed for the beginner version of the game.

[TheMan]

Do you think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in 1994 without MJ if they hadn't 3-peated first?

Do you think they could've made the playoffs without MJ in 1989 - that was when they won 47 games behind MJ's 33/8/8/54%, when the cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 games?

No I don't...

Look, without MJ they don't win 6 titles, even if you replace Jordan with a Mitch Richmond (which was the premise of a pretty stupid thread a while back), they don't win even one, IMO. We are asking Richmond to replace the GOAT and to replicate performances he had to have, like the double double vs the Lakers to win his first chip. Richmond never had those kind of performances. That's not a knock on him, MJ was just on another level. You can't just replace a player like that thread suggests and expect more or less the same results

We know MJ is the GOAT, no need to tear down his teammates is all I'm saying...

[Round Mound]

MJ stans are so delusional . Watch Pippen`s 1993-94 season and he was clearly the best sf of the 90s . End this thread

[LAZERUSS]

Grant's career averages are 11/8.. And alongside MJ from 1988-1993, he averaged 12.2 ppg and 8.3 rpg in regular season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3-sum:per_game


In playoffs from 1988-1993, Grant averaged 11.3 and 8.1 rpg:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_per_game


SO IT'S A FACT that Grant was nothing more than an 11/8 player - without MJ, Horace was just another 11/8 player we've never heard of - Horace says so himself:

"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s

This is far from a lone opinion - people who actually watched the Bulls at the time feel Pippen is garbage and overrated.

Isiah Thomas and Laimbeer feel this way too - so the entire Piston team likely felt this way, especially considering they based their entire defense around stopping 1 guy.. Here's Chuck Daly talking about how the coaching staff created the "Jordan Rules":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s


Also, Pippen's stats in playoffs from 1996-1998 (2nd three-peat) were not top 100-level: 17.6/7.4/5.0 on 40% FG.. This is worse than Wade's 20.3/5.2/4.3 on 48% in 2011-2014 playoffs.

Of course, Pippen's chokes are EPIC - no 2nd option has ever had so many: 1990 ECF Game 7.. 1994 ECSF Game 3.. 1996 Finals.. Games 5 and 6 in 1998 Finals.



The Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

Of course, the Bulls didn't just make the 2nd round randomly - MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty first, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without him.. Just look at 1989 - the cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, .. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

Except Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.



Battier, Ray Allen, Cole, Chalmers - they ALL had far more athletic ability than Kerr and Paxson, yet the the story was frequently how they underperformed alongside Lebron.. But when MJ was winning rings with Kerr, Paxson and other supporting help, the story was never how they underperformed alongside MJ.

Kerr and Paxson played so well alongside MJ, it led to notoriety, which benefited their post-playing career.. If it wasn't for MJ, you'd never have heard of Kerr or Paxson..

But Chalmers, Cole, Battier - there is a much less likelihood that anyone will have any idea who these guys are 10 years from now because they never played that great alongside Lebron, despite having more athletic talent than Paxson, Kerr.



They broke down physically when MJ wasn't there to carry most of the load.. No surprise.



It was physically impossible for Grant and Pippen to be healthy for an entire season without MJ there and carrying most of the load.. The 1994 season proved this.

Btw, all your arguments require you to research and formulate coulda-woulda-shoulda hypotheticals - that's pathetic - you can never just rely on facts.. Otoh, I don't need hypotheticals to make my case - I can just use facts that actually happened:

For example, if Kukoc misses that walk-off game winner in Game 3 of 1994 ECSF, the Bulls go down 3-0... This is a FACT, not a hypothetical (and remember, that was the possession of Pippen's epic choke where he refused to enter the game).

Now here's the hypothetical: once they go down 3-0, they likely get swept.




Statistically, MJ was almost the same in 1995 playoffs as his 2nd three-peat years.. But that's just the stats - chemistry-wise, MJ and the Bulls were horrible.. When MJ came back, every single player was new except Pippen and they only had 17 games (while everyone else in the league got a full season to prepare).

Only a delusional fool with no other argument would convince himself that the chemistry should be the same after 2 years off playing professional baseball, only 17 regular season games, and a completely new team.

But in MJ's first full season, he led the Bulls back to a championship and eventually another 3-peat, which VERIFIED his 3-peat to 2nd Round impact.

This showed MJ's goat impact on decent teams.. and as described earlier, the 1989 season showed his goat impact on bad teams.. btw, a 3-peat champion is simply FAR better than a 1-off champions, so going from 3-peat to 2nd round is a far bigger fall than falling from 1-off champion to 2nd Round.
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Grant was a 14-10 player from the three-peat (90-91 thru 92-93), and the '93-94 season. Not only that. but he shot a spectacular .550 from the field in that span. And, the year after that, in Orlando, he was a 13-10 .567 player.

In the playoffs in that same span...13-8 .543. BUT, in his biggest series, he was HUGE. In the '91 ECF's, 14-8 .690 (yes, .690.) In the Finals, he dominated the Laker front-line with a 15-8 .627. And Jordan found out first hand just how great Grant was, when Horace DESTROYED his Bulls in the '95 ECSF's with an 18-11 .647 series.

His ORtgs were off the charts in both the regular season and especially the post-season from '90-91 thru '94-95, with regular season marks of 126, 126, and a league-leading 132. He was even more dominant in the post-season, with five straight years of 123. 126, 126, 127, and a league-leading 130.


Pippen at 100?

YOU are the ONLY idiot on the planet who feels that way. He was voted among the Top-50 in '97 and before his SIXTH ring, and surely is in the top-40 today.

The Bad Boys didn't concern themselves with Pippen (and Grant)? That explains why those two, along with Cartwright, wiped out the crumbling Pistos in the '91 ECF's. While MJ was held below his scoring average for the 4h straight time by the Bad Boys (albeit, he FINALLY shot above his regular season FG%...after being WAY below it in the first three battles with the Bad Boys)...Pippen hung a 22-8-5-3-2 .475 series, and Grant, as always was dominant with a 14-8 .690...while an aging Cartwright hung an 11-5 .594. THAT explains how the Bulls FINALLY got over the hump against Detroit. Of course, this was a Piston team in shambles, and would drop from 50-32, to 48-34, and down to 40-42 in from '91 thru '93.


The Bulls went from a 57-25 team all the way down to a 55-27 team after MJ quit, and left them little time to find a replacement. The reality was, they scrambled to come up with Kukoc, Kerr, and the famous Pete Myers, who took MJ's spot.

And this was no "ordinary" 55-27 second round loser, either (that would be the NEXT year and with JORDAN.) Nope, this team went 55-27 with Pippen missing 10 games, and Grant missing 12. Think about that. 22 missed games by their two best players, on a team that went 55-27. They would have easily been a 60+ win team with those two healthy all year. And again...that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they swept the Cavs, and then lost a seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks...in a series in which they won ALL THREE games on their home court (and they lost an 87-86 game on NY's, as well.) Of course, the Knicks would go on to lose a close seventh game, by four points, to the 58-24 Rockets, in a series in which they outplayed Houston. Again...HCA, and the Bulls likely win the TITLE.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

As for "they broke down physically"...

Pippen was injured in the SECOND game of the season, and missed the next 10 games (and Chicago only went 3-7 in those BTW.) HOWEVER, he came back to play the next 70 straight games, as well as all of the playoff games. Oh, and his Bulls went 51-21 in those 72 games...or a 58-24 pace. Add a healthy Grant in the 12 games he missed, and easily a 60+ win team...and likely a champion.


BUT, it gets even worse for MJ. The Bulls lost Grant in the off-season, and couldn't find a replacement. And yet, somehow, Pippen carried a team without Grant (and MJ) to a 34-31 record. Think about that. Pippen could take a roster without BOTH MJ and Grant, to a winning record, while MJ NEVER had a winning record without Pippen and Grant.

Ok, then MJ comes back in the last 17 games. Now, the Jordanites will claim...see a .750 winning percentage. BUT, given Grant's record in the previous season, of 48-22...the Bulls would have gone 12-5 had HE been playing in those 17 games.

And by the time the playoffs started, MJ was playing at the SAME level he had in his '92-93 post-season. BUT, with the SAME roster and COACH from the previous season, sans Grant, he couldn't do any better than the "11-8" Grant, and in fact, did WORSE. His Bulls were whacked by the Magic, 4-2. Oh, and guess who was the BEST player on the floor in that series...none other than Horace "11-8" Grant, with his 18-11 .647 series...and as Jlip noted...the ECSF MVP.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=357166

So again...a healthy and fully refreshed MJ, with Pippen and the SAME COACH he had in his '93 title run...couldn't do as well as Grant and Pippen from the year before. In fact, WORSE...as that Magic team would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team.


Then 3ball contends that MJ then led the Bulls to three straight more titles. Except he forgot to mention that the '95 Bulls team, that was wiped out by Grant's Magic in the second round...ADDED HOFer Dennis Rodman, and 20 ppg scorer Ron Harper to basically a team that had gone 55-27 (and should have been 60-22) without Jordan. Think about that. Adding MJ, Rodman, and Harper, to a 55-27 (60-22) team, with the "only" loss being Horace Grant.


BTW, while 3ball loves to put down Pippen's offensive numbers from '96 thru '98 in the playoffs....he ignores MJ's ROTTEN shooting in those three straight Finals (.455, .427, and a horrific .415.) Thank god Pippen's DEFENSE carried a shot-jacking MJ to three titles, because Jordan's shooting certainly wasn't going to do it.

THAT was REALITY.

MJ didn't have a winning record without Pippen and Grant. Plain-and-simple. And even worse, he went 1-9 in the post-season in that span (which included a 20-15 performance from Charles Oakley in a series in which Jordan shot .417.)

And yet, Pippen was a signficant winner without Jordan. Same with Grant, whose presence not only led a Bulls team to a 55-27 record withOUT Jordan...but then raised the Magic from a 50-32 record, to a 60-22 record the very next year.

So much for Jordan carrying worthless scrubs to titles. We saw what MJ could do with bad rosters...which was basiscally... a sub- .500 record, and first round sweeping losses.

[TheMan]

So we now have on one side 3ball, who thinks the Bulls without Jordan were a bunch of hapless D Leaguers...and on the other side is LOOSERUS who thinks MJ's supporting cast were on the early 80s 76ers, Larry Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers level of stacked


Only at ISH...I'm outta here, the retard level gonna hit the roof

[97 bulls]

So we now have on one side 3ball, who thinks the Bulls without Jordan were a bunch of hapless D Leaguers...and on the other side is LOOSERUS who thinks MJ's supporting cast were on the early 80s 76ers, Larry Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers level of stacked


Only at ISH...I'm outta here, the retard level gonna hit the roof

Well to be honest, i feel the second threepeat Bulls were just as stacked as those great 80s teams

[3ball]

55-27 record withOUT Jordan

The Bulls didn't win 55 games and make the 2nd round randomly in 1994 - MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty first, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without him.. Just look at 1989 - the cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%..

But instead, MJ took a team that would've been lottery without him, to 6 games with the champs, which is the best anyone's ever done with a lottery team.

We saw what MJ could do with bad rosters

We sure did - again, just look at 1989 - MJ took a team that would've been lottery without him, to 6 games with the champs, which is the best anyone's ever done with a lottery team.

By comparison, Lebron also took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, except Lebron averaged [COLOR="Indigo"]30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%[/COLOR] in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's [COLOR="Navy"]34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51%[/COLOR] in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.
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[3ball]

So we now have on one side 3ball, who thinks the Bulls without Jordan were a bunch of hapless D Leaguers...and on the other side is LOOSERUS who thinks MJ's supporting cast were on the early 80s 76ers, Larry Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers level of stacked


Only at ISH...I'm outta here, the retard level gonna hit the roof

Don't lump me with that idiot lazeruss.

I post facts... You guys can't even refute my shit, other than to say "calm down, MJ's the goat."

So don't categorize me with lazeruss, who says things that are ridiculous and based on if this, and if that...

Whereas I just state the facts - what actually happened... Then I let you guys make all the excuses.. I simply refuse to back down to everyone's attempts to rewrite history about what happened..

You guys are the ones making stuff up because you weren't there to see it happen.. What you guys are doing is the equivalent of someone coming on here 15 years from now and saying Lebron was a great mid-range player.

Btw, are you saying the 47-win Bulls WEREN'T lottery in 1989 without MJ's 33/8/8?... The cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins that year... Now let's see who's being ridiculous.

[97 bulls]

Don't lump me with that idiot lazeruss.

I post facts... You guys can't even refute my shit, other than to say "calm down, MJ's the goat."

So don't categorize me with lazeruss, who says things that are ridiculous and based on if this, and if that...

Whereas I just state the facts - what actually happened... Then I let you guys make all the excuses.. I simply refuse to back down to everyone's attempts to rewrite history about what happened..

You guys are the ones making stuff up because you weren't there to see it happen.. What you guys are doing is the equivalent of someone coming on here 15 years from now and saying Lebron was a great mid-range player.

Btw, are you saying the 47-win Bulls WEREN'T lottery in 1989 without MJ's 33/8/8?... The cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins that year... Now let's see who's being ridiculous.

Not that I need to speak for Lazarus, but what is he saying that isnt true? Or at using the same type of reasoning as you.

[LAZERUSS]

So we now have on one side 3ball, who thinks the Bulls without Jordan were a bunch of hapless D Leaguers...and on the other side is LOOSERUS who thinks MJ's supporting cast were on the early 80s 76ers, Larry Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers level of stacked


Only at ISH...I'm outta here, the retard level gonna hit the roof

The Bulls COMPETITION in the 90's was ALSO NOWHERE near the level of the teams of the 80's, either.

And yes, his teammates were capable of winning 55+ games, and challenging for titles withOUT him.

FACT.