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  1. #1
    Facts Are Misleading
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    Default I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    I just watched one of the games in the opening round Knicks series and one thing that really stuck out.

    Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much. I'd say BJ Armstrong and Pippen have the ball in their hands way more, not exactly creating for others but just running the offense.

    Pippen wasn't great in this game. Quite a few bad turnovers, I didn't chart any defensive plays that stuck out (shutting down a driving Lane off an ISO, a great closeout, rotation, etc) beside a nice first half charge he took in a fast break situation.

    Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.

  2. #2
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    You must mean 91' since they didn't play the Knicks in 90'. It sounds like you watched Game 2.

    How do you think Ewing looked? He was 6/6/1 on 43% in Game 1. 17/10/2 for the series--but on 40%, which is terrible efficiency for a center.

    Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.
    They ran that experiment with Jordan for part of the 89' season.
    Last edited by Roundball_Rock; 05-22-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  3. #3
    Facts Are Misleading
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    He looks like a unique talent and came out with something to prove in the first half of game 2, but he didn't perform after that in this game. He missed a lot of shots and didn't make other plays.

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    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine View Post
    He looks like a unique talent and came out with something to prove in the first half of game 2, but he didn't perform after that in this game. He missed a lot of shots and didn't make other plays.
    That may sum up his career. I don't know what to make of him. Amazing talent, had no offensive help, but also underperformed in key series (especially the 94' finals). On net I tend to be pro-Ewing but he is fascinating to me. What is your take on him career wise?

  5. #5
    All washed up ThatCoolKid's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Games I watch of MJ he plays a lot of off the ball for large portions of the game. Nothing wrong with that - but he isn't in the thick of things the way Lebron is to the same extent.

  6. #6
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine View Post


    Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much.

    And yet he led the bulls in assists for those Playoffs and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (88', 89', 90', 91', 93', 97')

    That's a primary reason that I have MJ/Bird as #1 and 2 all-time - they're among the only high assist players that didn't play a point guard role (dominate the ball)... And only MJ averaged 10+ assists in a series without bringing the ball up or starting at PG

    A couple other things you'll notice - Pippen never hits a big shot and basically doesn't play the 4th quarter - the standard was MJ doing everything in the 4th, as Phil reveals here.

    Secondly, Pippen is never the primary defender on the opponent's best player.. MJ guarded Magic for most of the 91' Finals, and was the primary defender on Drexler, Miller, Payton (games 3 and 5), and Isiah (numerous)... The only exception is when Pippen guarded Penny and got torched
    Last edited by 3ball; 05-22-2020 at 02:19 PM.

  7. #7
    NBA rookie of the year Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine View Post
    I just watched one of the games in the opening round Knicks series and one thing that really stuck out.

    Jordan doesn't have the ball in his hands much. I'd say BJ Armstrong and Pippen have the ball in their hands way more, not exactly creating for others but just running the offense.

    Pippen wasn't great in this game. Quite a few bad turnovers, I didn't chart any defensive plays that stuck out (shutting down a driving Lane off an ISO, a great closeout, rotation, etc) beside a nice first half charge he took in a fast break situation.

    Quite a different way Jordan is playing as compared to many stars today. Harden/LeBron have the ball in his hands more in half a quarter than Jordan an entire game if this pattern continues throughout the '90 playoff run.
    Interesting challenge. Keep us updated to your thoughts as you go through them. Bookmarked.

  8. #8
    NBA Superstar tontoz's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    The Bulls ran the triangle offense which was a ball sharing offense based on reads and movement.

  9. #9
    NO KLAY, NO PLAY AlternativeAcc.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Of course he didn't have the ball in his hands, nor did he exert much energy on defense contrary to popular belief.

    He didn't have to do much but take a lot of shots. He saved all of his energy for that and did very little dirty work at all. He's more similar to Curry than people realize.

    He drew single coverage by guys like Kevin Johnson and Jeff Hornacek more times than not in the finals.

    When you watch Jordan you realize he was just a run of the mill SG on a stacked team in a garbage era.

  10. #10
    NO KLAY, NO PLAY AlternativeAcc.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

    Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

    Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.

  11. #11
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by AlternativeAcc. View Post
    Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

    Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

    Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.
    Teams that use a primary ball-handler LOSE, while teams that move the ball and use all 5 guys win - the only dynasties since 1990 are system/ball movement teams (bulls, Lakers, Spurs warriors)

    And it's harder to score without getting to dribble as much... Dribbling a lot before scoring is AAU skill level.. so it's the opposite of genuis - go to any playground and you'll see stiffs dominating the ball - it's the easiest and dumbest way to play but that's lebron's wheelhouse - dumb AAU ball, aka 3/9 ball, aka get swept-ball.. aka record-loss ball

  12. #12
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by AlternativeAcc. View Post
    Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

    Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

    Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.
    Averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs while scoring 31 a game for the 1991 title run. Yeah, sure.

  13. #13
    National High School Star RogueBorg's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by AlternativeAcc. View Post
    Jordan didn't have the mental burden many playmaker have. Being the primary ball handler and playmaker is a mental feat that gets overlooked and drains you of energy...

    Jordan was only able to score like he did because he didn't do much else outside of that.

    Meanwhile LeBron has been the primary ball handler, decision maker, defender, and scorer for his entire career for 17 straight years with no vacations in between.
    What in the world are you talking about?

    Jordan's career usage rate is 33.3% compared to LeBrons's 31.5%

    Just for giggles, MJ's TOV% is 9.3 to LeBron's 13.1.

    Jordan had the ball more often and committed fewer turnovers.

  14. #14
    NO KLAY, NO PLAY AlternativeAcc.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball View Post
    Teams that use a primary ball-handler LOSE, while teams that move the ball and use all 5 guys win - the only dynasties since 1990 are system/ball movement teams (bulls, Lakers, Spurs warriors)

    And it's harder to score without getting to dribble as much... Dribbling a lot before scoring is AAU skill level.. so it's the opposite of genuis - go to any playground and you'll see stiffs dominating the ball - it's the easiest and dumbest way to play but that's lebron's wheelhouse - dumb AAU ball, aka 3/9 ball, aka get swept-ball.. aka record-loss ball
    Teams that have more talent relative to the competition win


    Jordan was a flashy player so people think he's the GOAT because of marketing hype

    Duncan didn't get as much love because he was boring and Spurs played in a tougher era. Their team won more because they had more USEFUL talent just like the bulls... versatile players who could pass, shoot, and have great timing

    Lebron never had the most talented or best coached teams and faced MUCH more stiff comp. So what he accomplished is more impressive than what Jordan and Duncan did by a country mile

  15. #15
    NO KLAY, NO PLAY AlternativeAcc.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueBorg View Post
    What in the world are you talking about?

    Jordan's career usage rate is 33.3% compared to LeBrons's 31.5%

    Just for giggles, MJ's TOV% is 9.3 to LeBron's 13.1.

    Jordan had the ball more often and committed fewer turnovers.
    Jordan wasn't the main playmaker, ball handler, or defender for any of his championships

    Lebron was for all of his, against much tougher comp to boot

    Jordan was a jumpshooter on a stacked team in a garbage era.

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