Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[3ball]

There was no zone in MJ's era

As soon as you beat your man it was a guaranteed dunk

Look at the lane... The 3-point shooters and defensive 3 seconds free the lane of literally everyone!!!... This is the environment that allows Lebron's dunks to be mostly wide open.





Being allowed to use a zone when you have to guard 3-pointers and stay out of the paint is no better a defensive environment than NOT being allowed to use a zone but only having to guard 2-pointers and getting to camp in the paint indefinitely.

In today's game, MJ wouldn't need to be as great - he wouldn't need to make as many wild shots as he did when defenders could camp in the paint and didn't have to guard 3-pointers - today's game is about open shots, so he'd be taking more of those, just like Lebron uses the spacing to do here.
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[PHILA]

i got you...

every hood has that one massively huge guy that weighs between 300-450 pounds but is also 6'6" and could ball... barkely is that guy that made it, like, the pro version of them... there are a few others that made it, but barkely is their poster child..

Looking forward to the data.

Barkley used to jump over a 5 foot fence flat footed, after he (like Jordan) was cut from the varsity high school team. With the Sixers, Moses Malone had a big influence on him getting in shape.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGftPYLZL0c&t=3m25s



Chicago Tribune - February 15, 1987

Life has been a series of challenges for Charles Wade Barkley, and he has learned to like them.

Once challenged, he sets his jaw and refuses to stop until his quest is complete. In the process, he can be intimidating, tenacious and possessed of an almost perverse determination.

That kind of drive, an undying internal fire, brought Barkley from poverty to the lofty perch on which the 6-foot-5-inch forward sits today as the centerpiece of the 76ers.

It all started a little more than seven years ago, when Barkley, dejected, went on an exercise binge that surely helped make him the player he is today.

When Barkley was a sophomore in high school, he failed to make the varsity basketball team.

"Him not making the varsity really made him determined," said Barkley's mother, Charcey Glenn. "He became obsessed with basketball."

He didn't have time for anything but running, exercising and playing basketball. That's all he did the whole summer. He'd run and run and run. It was hot, too. But he kept running, sometimes even at night. And he'd jump and jump and jump. He scared my mother so bad--scared me, too."

In the heat of Leeds, Ala., Barkley, a pudgy kid who stood about 5-10 and weighed nearly 220 pounds, gritted his teeth and took the matter to task.

The high school coach, Billy Coupland, had told him that he had to grow or his chances of making the varsity as a junior would be slim. If he couldn't reach the appropriate height through growth, Barkley was going to try to get there by jumping.

"We had a chain-link fence about 5 feet high," said Barkley's grandmother, Johnnie Edwards, "and he'd jump from one side to the other--I mean flat-footed. And he'd do it over and over again, maybe 15 or 20 times. Then he'd rest and do it again. He did that just about every day. I think that jumping had a lot to do with him growing that summer."

Barkley sprouted to 6-2 and by Christmas was starting for Leeds High School on a talented team that went to the state finals, finishing with a 25-7 record.

[Da_Realist]

Not an interview, just a quote from his autobiography ("Living the Dream", written in 95). I typed up a bunch from there recently, and this one applied so I thought I'd share it.

That's a great analysis that can only be given by a fellow pro. He talked about MJ but he also provided a window into how he processed the game. Does he analyze any other players? That looks like a book worth picking up.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great thread, man

Jordan

[sportjames23]

And some of these young bucks here at ISH wonder why us MJ fans give MJ props so much--the man not only lived up to the hype, he EXCEEDED it.

[9erempiree]

-
Comparing Jordan's Dunking Data to Contemporaries

For the 6 seasons between 1988 and 1993, Jordan had 746 dunks, or an average of 125 dunks per season.. His high was 158 (1988), and his low was 95 (1993)... (links to complete dunk data for each season are at the bottom of this post)

By comparison, from 2002-2009 (Kobe's athletic prime and highest volume period), Kobe averaged 65 dunks... Tracy McGrady averaged 75 dunks from 2001 to 2005 (his athletic prime and highest volume period)... Vince Carter in his prime and Paul George only get about 50 dunks per season.

Infact, Jordan's dunk totals dwarf every single wing player from this era except Wade, Lebron, and Durant... These are the only players that routinely amass over 100 dunks per year, although none of them have as many dunks over a 6-year period as Jordan - the high for any of these three players is 144, by Lebron this year.... Jordan has a season of 153 dunks and another with 158 dunks, and we don't have data for his biggest dunking year - 1987 when he averaged 37.1ppg on 27 shot attempts (still had 59%TS).


Looking at the Dunking Environment Across Eras

Of course, different eras use different rules and styles of play which affect how easy it is to get a dunk - this will sound crazy, but Lebron dunked over defenders in a chest-to-chest scenario only 3 times the entire 2014 season - every other time the spacing and defensive 3 seconds prevented defenders from getting to the spot in time... and most of Lebron's dunks were completely wide open, not even a reach-in or fly-by - the 3-point shooting and floor-spacing creates too much ground and extra space for the defense to cover.... confirm for yourself... here are every single one of Lebron's dunks for the 2014 season - only 3 posters.

All Lebron dunks from 1st half of season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYKuK84cCQ
All Lebron dunks from 2nd half of season... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiApca7OtE0


After you've watched Lebron's dunks in the 2014 season, compare that to Jordan's dunks in 1987... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH7_BW9hCI&t=2m12s

RIGHT AWAY you can tell that there's a massive difference - there is no spacing and less room between defenders because the defense is packed-in so they can better defend only 2-pointers, and shot-blocking big men are camped in the paint awaiting penetrators (rather than today's game where helping on penetration involves scrambling from the three-point line to the paint and then making sure you aren't in there for more than 3 seconds).

The lack of spacing meant Jordan had to frequently dunk over and through guys if he wanted to dunk - so much so, that even with the limited footage available from back then, it is easy to find literally hundreds of Jordan dunks over defenders... For example, listed below are links to various collections of Jordan posters (very partial collections)... you could never accumulate collections like this for Lebron, because today's game with the spacing doesn't allow this level of shot contestion, so Lebron doesn't even have a small fraction as many posters as Jordan has.

Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders

Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers

Various Two-Handed Posters Over Defenders (two-foot takeoffs)



Total Number of Dunks for Each Player in Various Seasons (retrieved from 76er's Media Guides)

1988... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lb0...8#.U_0tH_ldX2U
1989... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ra47s3&s=8#.U_0qN_ldX2U
1990... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29aw...8#.U_0sDPldX2U
1991... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.U_0tS_ldX2V
1993... http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6i9zef&s=8#.U_02XvldX2U

88'-93'... https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/...28075347_n.jpg

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. Put Kobe in there and we know who the best is.

I can bring up videos that trumps that.

[3ball]

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron.

If it wasn't for the media mistakenly trying to sell everyone on comparing Lebron to MJ and people actually going for it, I wouldn't bring up Lebron at all.

[9erempiree]

If it wasn't for the media mistakenly trying to sell everyone on comparing Lebron to MJ and people actually going for it, I wouldn't bring up Lebron at all.

You didn't need to pull up stats to try and say Lebron sucked at dunking. ISH already knows that.

Lebron's reason as a good dunker?

Dat eye-level tho.

[DJ Leon Smith]

I like how you favor MJ as the greatest by comparing him to Lebron. Put Kobe in there and we know who the best is.

I can bring up videos that trumps that.

OK we're waiting.

Thank you for bringing up the next epic thread after pauk's LeBron flop thread failed. You're doing God's work

[fpliii]

Spoke to Harvey Pollack today, and ordered the 95-96 and 96-97 yearbooks (with data from 94-95 and 95-96). I'll upload the new scans when the books arrive.

[Soundwave]

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Looking at 3ball's gifs it just strikes it home for me that not only is Jordan's pure vertical fairly impressive, but what's more notable about it is just the sheer speed he can rise up off the floor.

It just seems like he has springs in his legs, very difficult to guard when a guy can accelerate and leap off the floor so quickly, you can't angle him off. A lot of guys can jump high, but they need more time/space to gather themselves to do so, Jordan is almost like a video game cheat code the way he can elevate on a dime and get really good explosion on the jump from almost any leaping angle.

They must be putting something in the water in North Carolina.

I definitely agree with you. I've long said that Jordan needed less leg/knee flexion to "gather" for a jump than any of the other great leapers (Carter, Nique, Dr. J etc.). I personally attribute it to him having more fast twitch fibers in his thighs and calves (which is likely also what makes him quicker/more explosive than those guys in terms of speed). You can really see how little flex he needs to get great air, and how quickly he gets off the ground, in these two plays:

At the 21:33 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv3V5l9hG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fc4Ydxq4YI#t=3m34s

[fpliii]

Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players

1988.. http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8
1989.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mno...8#.VAi_6vldX2U
1990.. http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8
1991.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U
1993.. http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8

Thanks. Here is the Sixers plus/minus for 91-92 and 94-95, 95-96:

http://www35.zippyshare.com/v/92248068/file.html

[3ball]

Thanks, this along with 3ball's plus/minus data from 1991, 1993, etc. will provide a better statistical picture of Barkley in his prime years.

Don't have the 1992 season... I think Fpliii has it and posted the data previously.

Plus-Minus Data for Sixers Players

1988.. http://tinypic.com/r/143qmom/8
1989.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mno...8#.VAi_6vldX2U
1990.. http://tinypic.com/r/v7xts6/8
1991.. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=hx838g&s=8#.VAjAVfldX2U
1993.. http://tinypic.com/r/346u6ih/8

[3ball]

All Zo Posters are Different From Each Other (see different color uni's)