Can centers be considered clutch

[millwad]

How many of jlauber's 10,949 posts are about Wilt? Jesus.

He's quite knowledgable though. World's foremost Wilt scholar?

Na, bro, he gets all of his posts from google. Just look what he used to post about Wilt and his era;

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...7&postcount=53

And all his 10,949 posts are about Wilt, or something Wilt-related.

[millwad]

By the way, Jlauber, I found a picture of Connie Dierkings daughter, Cammy Dierking. Look how happy she is in this pic below, she's probably thinking about the fact that her 6'9 father managed to have the series of his life against prime Chamberlain.

[jlauber]

I don't have that amount of time to waste on a basketball player.

But damn, if Connie Dierking could average 17.5 points, 13 rebounds and 3.5 assists against Chamberlain I'm sure that Ryan Hollins who without no doubt is a more skilled player could destroy Chamberlain as well.

I'm very shocked over the fact that Dierking could put up numbers even close to that against a prime Chamberlain. Imagine a prime Shaq on Chamberlain instead of Connie Dierking, pure slaughter..

Regarding Dierking...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...401280PHI.html

Of course, Chamberlain also hung a 60 point game on him in the 68-69 season, which is considerably more than Kareem's HIGH game of 41 against Dierking. Evidently Hollins would have trashed Kareem too. Which, CLEARLY means that Hollins would have DESTROYED a Hakeem who allowed a 38-39 year old Kareem to AVERAGE 32.0 on .630 shooting against him in TEN STRAIGHT H2H GAMES...including games of 40, 43, and 46 (in only minutes and on 21-30 shooting.)

BTW, do you think Hollins was as skilled as 6-11 260 lb Bob Lanier?

How about Wilt against Lanier in ELEVEN STRAIGHT H2H games in his LAST TWO seasons against Lanier?

BTW, and for those that may have missed this...

Wilt faced the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier in 11 H2H games in their 71-72 and 72-73 seasons (Wilt's LAST two seasons.) Lanier was already a great player by that 71-72 season, with a career high 25.7 ppg average.

In any case, here are Wilt's numbers...


Quote:
71-72

1. 26 pts. 15 rebs. 11-14
2. 31 pts. 31 rebs. 15-22
3. 29 pts. 18 rebs. 13-17
4. 30 pts. 21 rebs. 14-18
5. 28 pts. 14 rebs. 10-13

144 pts. 89 rebs. 63-84

28.8 ppg 17.8 rpg .750 FG%

72-73

1. 22 pts. 19 rebs. 10-12
2. 21 pts. 21 rebs. 9-10
3. 14 pts 9 rebs 7-8
4. 18 pts unknown unknown
5. 22 pts. 14 rebs. 11-15
6. 22 pts. 13 rebs. 9-10

119 pts. in six games
76 rebs in five games
46-55 in five games

19.8 ppg 15.2 rpg .836 FG%

11 games


23.9 ppg

10 games

16.5 rpg

10 games


109-139 .784 FG%




BTW, Lanier had some big games against Wilt, too. But this was interesting from the standpoint that this was a well-past his peak Chamberlain, and in seasons in which he hardly shot the ball, averaging 24 ppg on .784 shooting over the course of 11 straight games, against a 6-11 HOFer.

[millwad]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...401280PHI.html

BTW, do you think Hollins was as skilled as 6-11 260 lb Bob Lanier?

How about Wilt against Lanier in ELEVEN STRAIGHT H2H games in his LAST TWO seasons against Lanier?

I think that Ryan Hollins is way more skilled than Dierking, don't you think?

[jlauber]

I don't have that amount of time to waste on a basketball player.

But damn, if Connie Dierking could average 17.5 points, 13 rebounds and 3.5 assists against Chamberlain I'm sure that Ryan Hollins who without no doubt is a more skilled player could destroy Chamberlain as well.

I'm very shocked over the fact that Dierking could put up numbers even close to that against a prime Chamberlain. Imagine a prime Shaq on Chamberlain instead of Connie Dierking, pure slaughter..

Yet, you do have time to WASTE looking up Connie Dierking's daughter.

[millwad]

Yet, you do have time to WASTE looking up Connie Dierking's daughter.

Well, that took me 30 seconds.

[Hands of Iron]

98-03 Shaq wasn't too bad in elimination games:

38/7/1 58.3% fg
36/14/1 52.2% fg
32/18/4 62.5% fg
18/9/5 55.6% fg
41/17/1 56.0% fg
35/13/2 48.0% fg
31/10/3 61.9% fg

Close-Out Games

36/16/4 69.6% fg
31/15/5 76.5% fg
31/9/4 70.6% fg
37/11/3 63.6% fg
32/18/4 62.5% fg
24/9/3 66.7%fg
15/21/3 36.8% fg
17/11/5 41.2% fg
35/11/3 63.0% fg
41/12/4 59.4% fg
25/15/2 52.9% fg
25/10/2 56.3% fg
26/10/2 57.9% fg
29/13/5 55.6% fg
21/11/7 45.5% fg
21/11/2 38.9% fg
34/10/4 60.0% fg
24/17/9 55.6% fg

[jlauber]

I think that Ryan Hollins is way more skilled than Dierking, don't you think?

Not at ALL. Same with multiple all-star Zelmo Beaty, who Wilt torched for a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 seven game series in the '64 playoffs, and in a post-season that averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting.

Nor do I think Hollins would have scored a point against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, who battled KAREEM in 43 career H2H starts, and held Kareem to SEVEN games of 30+points, with a HIGH game of 34 points in those 43 H2H's. Not only that, but in the research that I have done, Kareem probably shot less than .430 against Nate in those 43 career H2H's...including three straight post-season series of .486, .428, and .405.

And yet a PRIME Chamberlain wiped the floor with Thurmond. In fact, in a span of ELEVEN STRAIGHT H2H games against Thurmond, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg. Including games of 30, 33, 33, 34, 38, and 45 (and outscoring Nate in those games by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13.)

Or that Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and get this... .560 to .343 (in Nate's greatest season BTW.)

Nor do I think Hollins would stand a chance against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, either. How many seasons has Hollins averaged 20+ ppg (and with a high of 32?) Hell, and OLD Bellamy was putting up 18.6 ppg seasons on .545 shooting in an NBA that featured centers like Hayes, Reed, Cowens, Unseld, Lanier, Thurmond, Kareem, and Wilt.

Yet, Chamberlain CRUSHED Bellamy from his very first game (by a 52-14 margin) until late in his career. He had entire SEASONS, covering ten games each, of 43.7 ppg and even 52.7 ppg against Bellamy. And in the '68 playoffs, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, 25.5 ppg to 20 ppg; outrebounded Bellamy, 24.2 rpg to 16 rpg; and outshot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin (as bad as Shaq outshooting Hakeem by a .595 to .483 margin, and then later by a .529 to .426 margin.)

[millwad]

Not at ALL. Same with multiple all-star Zelmo Beaty, who Wilt torched for a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 seven game series in the '64 playoffs, and in a post-season that averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting.

Nor do I think Hollins would have scored a point against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, who battled KAREEM in 43 career H2H starts, and held Kareem to SEVEN games of 30+points, with a HIGH game of 34 points in those 43 H2H's. Not only that, but in the research that I have done, Kareem probably shot less than .430 against Nate in those 43 career H2H's...including three straight post-season series of .486, .428, and .405.

And yet a PRIME Chamberlain wiped the floor with Thurmond. In fact, in a span of ELEVEN STRAIGHT H2H games against Thurmond, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg. Including games of 30, 33, 33, 34, 38, and 45 (and outscoring Nate in those games by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13.)

Or that Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and get this... .560 to .343 (in Nate's greatest season BTW.)

Nor do I think Hollins would stand a chance against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, either. How many seasons has Hollins averaged 20+ ppg (and with a high of 32?) Hell, and OLD Bellamy was putting up 18.6 ppg seasons on .545 shooting in an NBA that featured centers like Hayes, Reed, Cowens, Unseld, Lanier, Thurmond, Kareem, and Wilt.

Yet, Chamberlain CRUSHED Bellamy from his very first game (by a 52-14 margin) until late in his career. He had entire SEASONS, covering ten games each, of 43.7 ppg and even 52.7 ppg against Bellamy. And in the '68 playoffs, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, 25.5 ppg to 20 ppg; outrebounded Bellamy, 24.2 rpg to 16 rpg; and outshot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin (as bad as Shaq outshooting Hakeem by a .595 to .483 margin, and then later by a .529 to .426 margin.)

Conny Dierking shot the ball with two hands..

[jlauber]

Close-Out Games

36/16/4 69.6% fg
31/15/5 76.5% fg
31/9/4 70.6% fg
37/11/3 63.6% fg
32/18/4 62.5% fg
24/9/3 66.7%fg
15/21/3 36.8% fg
17/11/5 41.2% fg
35/11/3 63.0% fg
41/12/4 59.4% fg
25/15/2 52.9% fg
25/10/2 56.3% fg
26/10/2 57.9% fg
29/13/5 55.6% fg
21/11/7 45.5% fg
21/11/2 38.9% fg
34/10/4 60.0% fg
24/17/9 55.6% fg

Impressive. Almost Wilt-esque.

[Hands of Iron]

Impressive. Almost Wilt-esque.

Pretty good, and that's a ton of games from only 98-03. It's a smaller sample size, but seems he actually did better when facing elimination. The one poor game he had, he actually shoots better than Kobe from the FT line in it. Lakers were even in that position thanks to Kobe's poor play through most of the series anyway. Shaq had games of 41/12 and 31/21 in that series.

[jlauber]

Pretty good, and that's a ton of games from only 98-03. It's a smaller sample size, but seems he actually did better when facing elimination. The one poor game he had, he actually shoots better than Kobe from the FT line in it. Lakers were even in that position thanks to Kobe's poor play through most of the series anyway. Shaq had games of 41/12 and 31/21 in that series.

Of course, I could post Wilt's close out games in the first half of his career, including those of his opposing centers, and he would just have crushed them.

BUT, I posted EVERY ONE of Wilt's CAREER "must-win" and "series clinching games." ALL 35 of them, from his rookie season, until his last season at age 36. Or from his first post-season "must win" game of 53 points, on 22-42 shooting, and 18 rebounds, to his last post-season "series clinching" game of 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. And I have challenged other's here to do the same with anyone else. I suspect that only MJ could challenge his domination.

And, here again, include rebounding (if known...which not all of Wilt's were...although he did outrebound EVERY opposing center in ALL 29 of his post-season series.) And opposing center's scoring, rebounding, and FG%'s (if known.)

[Odinn]

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/...es-since-1991/

[Hands of Iron]

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/...es-since-1991/

LOL @ Shaq 28/11/3 on 59% TS.

****ers.

33/13/3 in his prime (98-03).

[jlauber]

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/12/...es-since-1991/

Interesting, however, it doesn't include EVERY "must-win" or "series clinching" game for these players. I want ALL of them. And in the case of centers, at least, how their opposing center fared.