Finals MVP is the most important stat...

[Connor B]

...in measuring all time greats. It roots out the retarded Michael Jordan argument of, in his case, "5 beats 1 (now 2)" in the case of Kobe and Lebron. I really don't want to make this thread about Kobe and Lebron, but it is a good example...Kobe may have more rings, but both guys have the same number of FMVPs, meaning they were the best and/or most impactful players during each of those Finals.

Now of course you don't want to really take away Kobe's first three rings because he was important to that team's success - so think of it this way - if you could replace Lebron at the same age (and in this case time of his career since they both came in at 18) with Kobe, do the Lakers still win? I think the answer is an obvious yes. Kobe whined and demanded to be traded to the Lakers (sorry but that's what happened) and Lebron got stuck in Cleveland. This discussion of "would player y have player x's rings had they replaced player x on their given team" allows us to measure the value of player x's extra rings.

From here, we can add up all the other stats and crap and come to the conclusion that at this point we should...just **** off cause both guys are still playing.

[Doranku]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?

[Fudge]

/thread

[riseagainst]

OP: don't want this to turn into a kobe vs lebron debate.
then decides to write half a block of sh1t on kobe vs lebron.*

anyway OP is a fakkit.

[Kyle_korver]

billups?

[Mr Exlax]

Dirk has one FMVP so he's better than Malone and Barkley combined.

[tpols]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?

Not only that, but if Lebron was on LA he wouldn't have won any FMVP with shaq facing the front courts he did in the finals. So Bron could've played just like he has and I guess those rings wouldn't count according to op

[Doranku]

Not only that, but if Lebron wouldn't have won any FMVP with shaq facing the front courts he did in the finals. So Bron could've played just like he has and I guess those rings wouldn't count according to op

That's assuming what the OP says is even true in that LeBron could replace Kobe and the Lakers would still win.

Kobe has won twice as the man, and the Heat were the most stacked team (easily) in the league during each of the past two years. With the mediocre competition both years, there's no reason to think that a prime Kobe wouldn't win both years with that Heat squad.

Now LeBron on the other hand? How do we know he could effectively play second banana to Shaq? His off-the-ball movement is terrible today, and even worse when he was 21-23.

Kobe killed the Blazers, Spurs, Kings, etc. with his jump shooting ability during those '00-'02 runs. Bronzy's jumper was broke as hell at that age. 21-23 year old Bronzy w/ Shaq just isn't a good pairing. There' no way they have the same success as Kobe/Shaq and 3peat.

Not a chance.

So basically, OP's logic is retarded and his assumptions are wrong. Great thread OP. f@ggot

[tmacattack33]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?

This is not at all true.

Lebron's one of a kind versatility is what got Miami through last year's playoffs with Chris Bosh being injured for two rounds.

Lebron was able to step into the PF role and provided the necessary rebounding and necessary size and defense against the opposing bigs. Kobe would not have done that. MJ could not have even done that. And no, no other Miami back up big man could have done that either...Joel Anthony and Juwan Howard are terrible.

[tpols]

This is not at all true.

Lebron's one of a kind versatility is what got Miami through last year's playoffs with Chris Bosh being injured for two rounds.

Lebron was able to step into the PF role and provided the necessary rebounding and necessary size and defense against the opposing bigs. Kobe would not have done that. MJ could not have even done that. And no, no other Miami back up big man could have done that either...Joel Anthony and Juwan Howard are terrible.

If kobe or mj were on the team the whole dynamic would be completely different.

Lebron works best as a drive and dish to 3 pt shooters. Bosh last year took more threes in the playoffs than all the other years in his career combined. He was pushed out to the perimeter to Accommodate Lebron's game.

Bosh is a smart passer, good slasher, and great midrange shooter from the high post and playing with Lebron forced him into a completely new, shitty role where he wasn't allowed near the basket so that the big men guarding him wouldn't be able to protect the rim as well on Lebron drives.

MJ and kobe were great at playing a two man in and out game and would compliment the former 24/11 first option and 19/9 third option Bosh much better. Bosh would be a 20/10 player with mj or Kobe easy.

And wades slashing game combined with mj/Kobe's midrange game would make that pair less redundant. The east competition was a joke and the heat would've finished the Spurs off twice as fast if Lebron wasn't scared to shoot.. Plus kobe has always had outstanding success against the Spurs defense.

[Nash]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?

You mean Kobe would carry the team with no front court, Wade on 1 knee and Bosh being injured for a good deal of the playoffs in 2012?

Kobe would have to lead a team with Joel Anthoony, Haslem, Turiaf, Juwan Howard, and Dexter Pittman in the front court. Also he would have to become a PF like Lebron because it was needed and I'm pretty sure Kobe can't be used as a PF.

Also he needs to lead the team in pts, apg and rpg while having sky high PER to fill in for Wade on 1 knee, lack of frount court and Bosh's absence in 2012.

Yeah, also tiny detail. Beat an OKC team that ran over the whole Western Conference with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka AND Harden.

Good luck.

[tmacattack33]

If kobe or mj were on the team the whole dynamic would be completely different.

Lebron works best as a drive and dish to 3 pt shooters. [B]Bosh last year took more threes in the playoffs than all the other years in his career combined. He was pushed out to the perimeter to Accommodate Lebron's game.

Bosh is a smart passer, good slasher, and great midrange shooter from the high post and playing with Lebron forced him into a completely new, shitty role where he wasn't allowed near the basket so that the big men guarding him wouldn't be able to protect the rim as well on Lebron drives.

MJ and kobe were great at playing a two man in and out game and would compliment the former 24/11 first option and 19/9 third option Bosh much better. Bosh would be a 20/10 player with mj or Kobe easy. [B]

And wades slashing game combined with mj/Kobe's midrange game would make that pair less redundant. The east competition was a joke and the heat would've finished the Spurs off twice as fast if Lebron wasn't scared to shoot.. Plus kobe has always had outstanding success against the Spurs defense.

Many questionable things in that whole post...but the main was is that I guess you just ignored the main part of my post where I said that Bosh was injured for two rounds of last year's playoffs. LOL.

[VIntageNOvel]

related : http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=310167

[tpols]

Many questionable things in that whole post...but the main was is that I guess you just ignored the main part of my post where I said that Bosh was injured for two rounds of last year's playoffs. LOL.

If it's questionable explain why. Bosh was in a new role this year.. A much worse one for his playing style. All of the numbers back it up and if you saw the games it was obvious he was pushed out to the perimeter and featured far less.. No PnR with Bron like in their first year together where he put up 19/9.. In place of that was the drive and dish 3pt shooters game. And that's fine because it worked. But I do not want to hear that Bosh was no longer capable because he was excluded from the gameplan based on his first options playstyle

Would been a completely different system with Kobe or mj who complimented big men and the in and out game much better.


And Yea Bosh was injured during their playoff series in the east.. Where competition was old or subpar and Wade although slightly injured was still having monster games at critical points in series. But yes would've been tougher to dominate Okc like Bron did. Still possible to win just tougher.

That shit with Dallas though in 2011? Doesnt happen with Kobe or mj.. That mental collapse was worse than anything any superstar has ever done and Miami was very clearly in control early and a much much better team

So it evens out either way

[Unbiased_one]

If it's questionable explain why. Bosh was in a new role this year.. A much worse one for his playing style. All of the numbers back it up and if you saw the games it was obvious he was pushed out to the perimeter and featured far less.. No PnR with Bron like in their first year together where he put up 19/9.. In place of that was the drive and dish 3pt shooters game. And that's fine because it worked. But I do not want to hear that Bosh was no longer capable because he was excluded from the gameplan based on his first options playstyle

Would been a completely different system with Kobe or mj who complimented big men and the in and out game much better.


And Yea Bosh was injured during their playoff series in the east.. Where competition was old or subpar and Wade although slightly injured was still having monster games at critical points in series. But yes would've been tougher to dominate Okc like Bron did. Still possible to win just tougher.

That shit with Dallas though in 2011? Doesnt happen with Kobe or mj.. That mental collapse was worse than anything any superstar has ever done and Miami was very clearly in control early and a much much better team

So it evens out either way

Kobe in the 2004 finals was worse than lebron in 2011 so I'm not sure why you think Kobe would have won in those (although he may well have). What's for sure is that Kobe has never displayed the level of play that the heat needed from lebron these past two postseasons.