What separated MJ from Kobe?

[Rooster]

Better shot selection and leadership.

[3ball]

In terms of skill level, I think we can all agree that they were both GOAT level. So I think what separated them was raw, physical tools. And here are some of the physical advantages MJ had over Kobe:

1) Superior quickness - MJ's quickness was off the charts and it matched that of any explosive PG. This gave him a huge advantage in almost everything he did. Bottom line: he could get to a place quicker than Kobe.

2) More fluid - Like his quickness, his movements were so fluid and there was no wasted motion. Again, this allowed MJ to get to spots quicker than Kobe.

3) Ability to jump off one foot or two feet - Most players are one or the other and if you tell them to jump the way they aren't accustomed too, it can greatly impact their game. Not MJ. He was utterly devastating jumping either way and that made him more dangerous.

4) Huge hands - MJ had huge hands and was able to palm the ball. Solid advantage to have.

5) Ability to hang in the air - No one was able to jump and just hang in the air like MJ. That gave him the advantage of waiting for the defender to go back down and still get a shot off.

6) Stamina - MJ's endurance and stamina was off the charts. He could go hard all game long.

When you COMBINE all of these traits, you can see why MJ took his game to a higher level of continued, dominance over his career. Kobe was a very athletic and explosive player himself but MJ was the perfect basketball player in terms of the traits you would want.

Thoughts?

#4 can't be overstated... I don't think it's possible (or highly unlikely at least) for the GOAT to NOT have massive hands.

I think it's that much of an advantage and takes a player's ability to finish around the rim and on defenders to the next level...

It gives a guard like MJ or wing like Dr. J, the ability to finish with touch over defenders at the rim the same way big men do - guys like bynum, shaq, webber, etc.

I have big hands, and I played ball... My ability would've been completely different without big hands - I'm not even sure I would've enjoyed playing as much.
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[ClipperRevival]

Kobe was better at taking contested jumpers, and possibly better at making them because he was forced to shoot them more often. The things you listed about Jordan in the OP made it so he didn't have to take ridiculous shots like Kobe did.

Agreed. Kobe's advantages I would say:

1) Better 3 point shooter with deeper range
2) Better at consistently making highly contested, outside shots
3) Better ability to get hot from deep (related to #1)
4) At his peak, you can argue that he was a slightly more dangerous, offensive force due to his range, which allowed the points to up rack more quickly
5) Superior footwork - Since Kobe wasn't as blessed as MJ athletically, he had to rely on the basics more. I give the slight nod to Kobe in footwork.

[ClipperRevival]

#4 can't be overstated... I don't think it's possible (or highly unlikely at least) for the GOAT to NOT have massive hands.

I think it's that much of an advantage and takes a player's ability to finish around the rim and on defenders to the next level...

It gives a guard like MJ or wing like Dr. J, the ability to finish with touch over defenders at the rim the same way big men do - guys like bynum, shaq, webber, etc.

I have big hands, and I played ball... My ability would've been completely different without big hands - I'm not even sure I would've enjoyed playing as much.
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Yup. When you combine huge hands along with the ability to hang in the air, the ability to jump off one or both feet along with his quickness and off the charts explosiveness, you can see why a guy like MJ was a master at finishing at the rim. Even if the defender was right there, he can do things to change the outcome in a variety of ways.

[Dragonyeuw]

-Shot selection is the most obvious to me. Kobe is often credited for crazy shot-making ability, but MJ really didn't need to take alot of those shots. Created space better to set himself up for better looks

- MJ used his body more( shoulder shakes and shimmies, fake one way/ go the other, show the ball palm) to get defenders off balance. Kobe, coming up during the and-1 era, used the dribble more.

- MJ more often than not made his move right right away as opposed to over-dribbling or holding onto the ball too long before making a move. This meant the defense reacted to him moreso than him reacting to it.

- Overall more explosive leaper and in-air creativity. Jumped high enough and hung long enough to see what the defense would do before manufacturing a shot around the rim

- More consistent in terms of how he approached the game night in, night out. Easier for roleplaying teammates to adapt to as a result

- MJ 'in the zone' is pretty much the same player, he just makes more shots when 'hot'. Kobe 'in the zone' is like a 48 minute heat-check from every possible spot inside the half-court line.

To me the difference is obvious, but not huge. Kobe was every bit as skilled and superior in a few ways, but MJ employed his skills in a smarter fashion, making for a more consistent player, better game management from higher IQ, better at reading the flow of the game and when to push the accelerator.

[JohnMax]

I agree with everything but #2.

Kobe is extremely fluid in the post and on his jumpshot.

Kobe just has a smaller body which gives him more flexibility. However all his body movements are much slower.

[Dragonyeuw]

Agreed. Kobe's advantages I would say:

1) Better 3 point shooter with deeper range
2) Better at consistently making highly contested, outside shots
3) Better ability to get hot from deep (related to #1)
4) At his peak, you can argue that he was a slightly more dangerous, offensive force due to his range, which allowed the points to up rack more quickly
5) Superior footwork - Since Kobe wasn't as blessed as MJ athletically, he had to rely on the basics more. I give the slight nod to Kobe in footwork.

On that point Kobe was probably more unpredictable, in that some shots you as a defender aren't even expecting him to take. Compare that to MJ, when he got hot he was pretty much taking the same shots he normally takes, just makes them at a higher clip. That, and the difference in Kobe's ability to get hotter from deep, are the offensive differences. Night in, night out, Jordan was a more consistent scorer and that shows in the averages.

[ClipperRevival]

-Shot selection is the most obvious to me. Kobe is often credited for crazy shot-making ability, but MJ really didn't need to take alot of those shots. Created space better to set himself up for better looks

- MJ used his body more( shoulder shakes and shimmies, fake one way/ go the other, show the ball palm) to get defenders off balance. Kobe, coming up during the and-1 era, used the dribble more.

[COLOR="Red"]- MJ more often than not made his move right right away as opposed to over-dribbling or holding onto the ball too long before making a move. This meant the defense reacted to him moreso than him reacting to it.[/COLOR]

- Overall more explosive leaper and in-air creativity. Jumped high enough and hung long enough to see what the defense would do before manufacturing a shot around the rim

- More consistent in terms of how he approached the game night in, night out. Easier for roleplaying teammates to adapt to as a result

- MJ 'in the zone' is pretty much the same player, he just makes more shots when 'hot'. Kobe 'in the zone' is like a 48 minute heat-check from every possible spot inside the half-court line.

To me the difference is obvious, but not huge. Kobe was every bit as skilled and superior in a few ways, but MJ employed his skills in a smarter fashion, making for a more consistent player, better game management from higher IQ, better at reading the flow of the game and when the push the accelerator.

And regarding the part in red, MJ didn't have to dance around because of his quickness. He was usually a jab step and explode type of guy. And that was enough to lose most defenders. Kobe didn't have MJ's quickness so he had to do more dribbling and dancing to lose his defender.

[ClipperRevival]

On that point Kobe was probably more unpredictable, in that some shots you as a defender aren't even expecting him to take. Compare that to MJ, when he got hot he was pretty much taking the same shots he normally takes, just makes them at a higher clip. That, and the difference in Kobe's ability to get hotter from deep, are the offensive differences. Night in, night out, Jordan was a more consistent scorer and that shows in the averages.

Yup. Night in, night out, MJ was the better scorer because he was more reliable and more consistent. But at his peak, you can argue Kobe was slightly more dangerous due to his 3 point range and ability to get hot from deep.

[andgar923]

Even if all the physical and athletic attributes were the same, MJ was simply more refined skills wise, smarter, had better vision.

We see glimpses of this late in their careers when athleticism has faded.

MJ was still better at creating better looks for himself by using footwork, timing, and just reading the defense better/quicker. MJ's superior IQ cannot be understated as it was Bird-esque.

[kennethgriffin]

And what advantages did Kobe have over MJ? I'm asking seriously, not to bait. Let's keep it constructive.

my poont exactly ^


the fact that you can't think of any shows youre biased. why bother even having a conversation

jordan fans think his sh*t tastes like ice cream and he jizzes chocolate syrup

[Young X]

Played way smarter and more disciplined. Pretty sure it's because he went to UNC while Kobe came straight outta high school. He was also a more explosive athlete and didn't settle for nearly as many bad shots as Kobe...instead he worked harder to get the shots he wanted. Also a better defender, and a better, more willing passer.

[3ball]

1) Better 3 point shooter with deeper range
2) Better at consistently making highly contested, OUTSIDE shots
3) Better ability to get hot from deep (related to #1)

I agree with 1-3 above

But part of the reason for that was MJ's active intent NOT to shoot 3-pointers because he thought it took away from his overall game (namely, it reduced his goat rim attack, which was dimensions superior to Kobe).

Also, regarding #2 above - the "outside" means long-two's or further imo - no one had crazier hangtime jumpshots and paint/mid-range shots than MJ - Kobe CANNOT make the type of hanging jumpshots from the mid-range that MJ routinely made.

4) At his peak, you can argue that he was a slightly more dangerous, offensive force due to his range, which allowed the points to up rack more quickly

[COLOR="Green"]Not in the higher level playoffs.

Kobe was NOT capable of having big scoring games in the playoffs like MJ - no one is close to MJ when it comes to big scoring games or scoring in the playoffs:[/COLOR]


40 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 38
Jerry West -- 20
Elgin Baylor -- 14
Kobe Bryant -- 13
Wilt Chamberlain -- 13
Shaquille O'Neal -- 12
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 11
Lebron James -- 11
Allen Iverson -- 10
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 9
Rick Barry -- 8
Bernard King -- 7
Dirk Nowitzki -- 7
Dwyane Wade -- 7
George Gervin -- 6
Charles Barkley -- 5
Larry Bird -- 5
John Havlicek -- 5
Bob McAdoo -- 5
Bob Pettit -- 5
Dominique Wilkins -- 5


50 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 8
Wilt Chamberlain -- 4
Allen Iverson -- 3
Jerry West -- 2
Elgin Baylor -- 1
Charles Barkley -- 1
Rick Barry -- 1
John Havlicek -- 1
Sam Jones -- 1
Eric Floyd -- 1
Ray Allen -- 1
Bob Pettit -- 1
Billy Cunningham -- 1
Bob McAdoo -- 1
Dominique Wilkins -- 1
Karl Malone -- 1
Vince Carter -- 1
Dirk Nowitzki -- 1
[COLOR="Red"]Kobe Bryant -- 1[/COLOR]
Bob Cousy -- 1


60 point games (Playoffs)

Michael Jordan -- 1
Elgin Baylor -- 1

5) Superior footwork - Since Kobe wasn't as blessed as MJ athletically, he had to rely on the basics more. I give the slight nod to Kobe in footwork.

Actually, MJ's superior athleticism allowed him to use footwork Kobe couldn't - like, MJ could finish with tremendous power at the rim off of a no-dribble drop-step or a move using just 1 dribble... For Kobe to finish with any power, he needed 2+ dribbles most of the time, if not all the time.
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[Noyze]

The things that can't be understated.

1) Jordan was quicker and faster. This is a huge advantage, he couldn't be caught in the open floor. Kobe was also hard to catch but you could grab him. Also Jordan's change of direction was quicker.

2) Jordan was more efficient. Playing college ball I'm sure was the factor. He could make a play to the basket on 2 moves. This saves energy.

3) Endurance, it lead to more consistent play on both ends.

4) Huge hands is another plus, especially on the def end.

[rmt]

my poont exactly ^


the fact that you can't think of any shows youre biased. why bother even having a conversation

jordan fans think his sh*t tastes like ice cream and he jizzes chocolate syrup

Maybe there aren't any - except for 3pt shooting. I'll give Kobe that. And maybe instead of taking all those highly contested shots, he should have passed the ball and he'd get credit for shot selection.