Rule Enforced Spacing vs. Shooting Encouraged Spacing

[3ball]

How about you confirm this
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ase-alcoholism

[COLOR="red"]Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man and Rule 2e of Illegal Defense Guidelines confirms that:[/COLOR]

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR]. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR].

As you can see, defenders in today's era AND previous eras were allowed to sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint, and also dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds.

The only time in history when man-to-man defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" is about 3 feet, which is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found [COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR], also shown at realgm here

[DoctorP]

The rule-spaced game favored one-on-one and Jordan was amazing at that but he also had the elite mid-range. It's really about how players adapt to the rules changes and the great ones find a way to dominate.

[3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?

It's a lie - defenders who were guarding 3-point shooters could sag off their man all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game.
[/COLOR]

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR]. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR].

[COLOR="Red"]Defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.[/COLOR]

[3ball]

[COLOR="Red"]So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?

It's a lie - defenders who were guarding 3-point shooters could sag off their man all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game.
[/COLOR]

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR]. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR].

[COLOR="Red"]Defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.[/COLOR]

Not only did defenders in previous eras sag off 3-point shooters exactly like today's defenders, but teams rarely did clearouts where they posted 3-4 guys behind the 3-point line like today's game.

[COLOR="Navy"]So the sheer rarity of clearouts in previous eras shows that the "rules-enforced" spacing theory isn't valid, since it would only be valid those rare times a clearout was ran[/COLOR].. Today's game runs that play far more often - we saw Lebron get those clearouts 10+ times per game in the Finals.

But regardless - both eras defend those plays the exact same way, with the defenders sagging off shooters to the edge of the paint and the right to sag into the paint for up to 3 seconds.
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[Rocketswin2013]

And they had one of the worst finals opponents ever (thank you, Eastern Conference). What did they do that was so innovative defensively? They played straight up man to man, 1 on 1, isolation defense. That's why a bench player off the bench won Finals MVP- because he so effectively shut down the so-called best player in the league virtually singlehandedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ

You must not be very familiar with the kinds of offenses the pistons had to face.

3ball's last shit thread confirm high levels of scoring has decreased to normal-to-low the past 6 years.

Everything that made people believe the hand-checking ban and other things weakened the league's defenses from '05-'07(ORTG, DRTG, league-leading scorers) has decreased to normal levels.

The only people who deny this are people who know a lot less than the people who claim it.

You have Zach fcking Lowe, among others confirming these things. But I guess the resident obsessing compulsive stan and his fellow cult members who are nostalgic fans and trolls, hold more weight.

If this post is responded to, I expect to see some outdated quotes and outlier seasons statistics somewhere in there. It'll get the point across eventually.

[3ball]

Everything that made people believe the hand-checking ban and other things weakened the league's defenses from '05-'07(ORTG, DRTG, league-leading scorers) has decreased to normal levels.

League-wide ORtg was lower in 1997 and 1998 than the last two seasons:

1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2014: 106.6
2015: 105.6


Contrary to your statement, these aren't "normal" 2-year averages - they're both below-average.. [color="Blue"]One of the highest ever 4-year averages came from 2008-2011, when ORtg ranged between 107.3 and 108.3 - the 108.3 occurred in 2009, and it was an all-time high in the history in of the league.[/COLOR]

However, using league or team ORtg/DRtg to compare across eras doesn't work, because the style of play affects in inputs that go into calculating ORtg and DRtg, such as offensive rebounding rate, FT rate, etc.

[Sarcastic]

Damn 3ball straight murdered these fools in cold blood. Another notch on the stick.

[3ball]

Rules-based spacing - in your gif, defenders HAVEN'T followed shooters to the 3-point line - they're sagging off, just like today's game, so the old rules didn't provide any more spacing than today's rules do.. And all of your gifs were like this, with the defenders sagging off the 3-point shooters, just like today's game.

So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?.. Nothing of course - there's never been any such thing.. Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man.. The Illegal Defense Guidelines didn't change that - defenders could sag off 3-point shooters all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game:

2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR]. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than [COLOR="Blue"]2.9 seconds[/COLOR].

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found [COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR], also shown at realgm here

Man-to-man defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.. The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing..

Otoh, in previous eras, there was no such "armslength" language in the rules.. Defenders could remain in the paint with no one around and their man far out of armslength - according to Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines, a defender's man could be up to 3 feet outside the paint.. This rule allowed defenders to remain in the paint more often, which discourages a spacing and is therefore NOT rule-enforced spacing:

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Red"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is [COLOR="Red"]within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area[/COLOR].

[GIF REACTION]

Just found a great quote from a 2015 ESPN article which exactly highlights the point of this thread

It’s different these days because the rules are different. When the NBA had illegal defense, [COLOR="Red"]space in the paint was legislated into the game[/COLOR]. Defenders weren't allowed zone coverages according to where a player might drive. This all changed after 2002, when illegal defense was nixed and coaches such as Tom Thibodeau flooded the strong side to prevent scorers from driving.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...gn-at-all-star

Essentially boiled down... As much as this is about zones, it is more about man defense, and the basic principles to which it can be played.

[3ball]

Just found a great quote from a 2015 ESPN article which exactly highlights the point of this thread


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...gn-at-all-star

Essentially boiled down... As much as this is about zones, it is more about man defense, and the basic principles to which it can be played.

The only time in history when the NBA had rules-enforced spacing that didn't let man-to-man defenders sag off their man is with today's paint defenders - they must remain within "armslength" of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing.
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[GIF REACTION]

The only time in history when the NBA had rules-enforced spacing that didn't let man-to-man defenders sag off their man is with today's paint defenders - they must remain within "armslength" of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing.
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[GIF REACTION]

smarter than u aj