Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to PROVE it

[poeticism707]

There is a thread on the same page discussing the very same thing.

Does Duncan = Shaq yet?

And? This is a new twist! State your case or get off because you don't have one!

[L.Kizzle]

And? This is a new twist! State your case or get off because you don't have one!

LOL at new twist, both threads discuss the same thing, Duncan or Shaq.

Shaquille O'Neal > Tim Duncan, not by much though.

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[0ne50]

She thinks your argument stinks

[poeticism707]

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

[D]

You make a solid point, but you didn't address Shaq's defensive liabilities, hence 0 first team all defense, and only 3 2nd team! Duncan is better, plain and simple. His defensive prowess puts him over the top.

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Once again, how many All-Defensive 1sts would Duncan have if he was Center like Shaq? Duncan would not have any over Ben Wallace since Ben Wallace has been DPOY all the time. Mutombo and Hakeem were also DPOYs. Shaq getting 2 All-Defensive teams against great defensive Centers is very impressive. Duncan might be the better defender, but the advantage isn't crazy great like the awards show[/FONT]

[RidonKs]

Should I post this here too? Meh, why not.

From the other thread...

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3

Advantage Shaq

finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3

Ok, even.

season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2

If you want to believe that Shaq doesn't deserve more MVP's, then that's your business. You'll be uhh, wrong though. Really wrong.

1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9

First of all, Shaq has 8, not 9. Let's get our facts straight. However, that's irrelevant anyways.
Secondly, you do realize that Duncan has twice as much of a chance of being voted first team than Shaq does, right? Two forward spots, two center spots.
Makes a difference. A big one.

And thirdly, let's have a quick rundown of who both Duncan and Shaq had for competition for these first team selections, shall we?

Duncan Beat Out
98 - Grant Hill and Vin Baker
99 - Grant Hill and Chris Webber
00 - Grant Hill and Karl Malone
01 - Vince Carter and Kevin Garnett
02 - Chris Webber and Kevin Garnett
03 - Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Webber
04 - Jermaine O'Neal and Peja Stojakovic
05 - LeBron James and Kevin Garnett

Duncan Lost To
06 - LeBron James and Dirk Nowitzki

Shaq Beat out
98 - David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo
00 - Alonzo Mourning and David Robinson
01 - Dikembe Mutombo and David Robinson
02 - Dirk Nowitzki and Dikembe Mutombo
03 - Ben Wallace and Jermaine O'Neal
04 - Ben Wallace and Yao Ming
05 - Amare Stoudemire and Ben Wallace
06 - Ben Wallace and Yao Ming

Shaq Lost to
93 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson
94 - Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson
95 - David Robinson
96 - David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon
97 - Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing
99 - Alonzo Mourning

Notice a lot of recurring names in the guys who beat out Shaq. Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing. Three of the greatest centers ever. Shaq's better than two of them easily, but he wasn't back then. And with good reason, all three of those guys were amazing. Now check out who both of these guys beat out for their spots. Which list seems superior? And again, Shaq only had one spot to grab, Duncan had two. What if there were two center spots on the All-NBA team? Or perhaps only one forward spot? How would things change?

1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7

The previous argument can be brought up for this one as well. Only 1 center spot, compared to 2 forward spots. You won't hear an argument from me about Shaq being a superior defender to Duncan, but he was no slouch in that category. Arguably a better shot blocker/changer, his man defense (and a few other aspects) just wasn't on the same level as Duncan's.

Still though, when there are guys like Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Mourning and Ben Wallace competing for spots at Shaq's position throughout his career, what are the chances he beats out any of them for the first team? Hell, what are the chances that even Duncan beats out any of those guys for first team selections? Let me answer for you -- slim to none.

Compare...

Robinson
Hakeem
Dikembe
Mourning
Wallace
Ratliff
Camby

to

Prince
Kirilenko
Bowen
Artest
Cliff Robinson
PJ Brown
Pippen
Ratliff

Which list tends to stand out more? Defensively of course? My point point exactly.

Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

So now we get you yelling about 4 lousy points? Yeah, 4 points per game, big deal. Whatever, that's nothing. Two buckets, that's it.

Think about this. How many games do you see throughout the year that are decides by two baskets or less? Quite a few. Hell, just for fun, let's multiply it out. Shaq scores 328 more points than Duncan in one full season. He gets 164 more baskets. Sounds a little more meaningful, doesn't it? Duncan's played 10 years. Over the course of that time, on average, Shaq's scored a total of 3280 more points than Duncan. In a 10 year stretch. That's 1640 more baskets. Sound meaningful yet? Hmm?

4 points per game more? Yeah, that's worth quite a bit.

And in reality, it doesn't even matter what the statline says for their careers. I've already posted why Shaq is better than Duncan. It was a nice, detailed post, and SURPRISE... it didn't have any stats involved. "Wow, how can you like, compare players posting stats?" By WATCHING them of course. Something I suggest you start doing. Here it is...

Right now, Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He's a defensive anchor, and a solid man to man defender. He draws doubles in the post, and is a solid passer out of those doubles. He can hit both cutters and open shooters. He doesn't force things in the post. He's got a bunch of post moves. He controls the defensive glass.

Ok, great. He's awesome. Now, take all of that (minus the team defense) and multiply it by 2. Now you have Shaq. You want to talk about drawing double teams? Duncan can only dream of creating the havoc Shaq did during the championship runs. Teams actually created defenses designed to completely collapse on Shaq. and guess what? It still didn't work. Shaq's that dominant. Solid post moves, a nice array of jumphooks and jumpshots, amazing footwork, amazing passing out of the post. And to top all of that off, he's (perhaps) the most dominant player that's ever lived. He had more power than half the centers in the league today combined (and possibly still does). He rebounded well just like Duncan. Perhaps not to his full potential, but again, that's not what we're talking about.

All of these things lead to the fact that prime Shaq is better than prime Duncan. I could break down their careers as well, even with another chip and Finals MVP in Duncan's case, and Shaq would still probably have the edge.

And again, I can't stress this enough. It's an extremely tight race. Extremely tight. And yet, the winner is never in doubt. Only a fool would take Duncan in his prime over Shaq in his prime. Their careers are closer, but when comparing who's the better player, Shaq is the winner. Undoubtedly.

That sums up my thoughts quite nicely, once again.

He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash!

lol

Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points!

lol

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq!

I bolded the words that you use WAY too much.

[poeticism707]

I love how everyone is responding, but no one is addressing how Tim Duncan is so far ahead in defensive accomplishments, all nba, etc. Let's here some sound rhetoric!

[ronron15]

the achievements were close, it was too close to call...

but one thing u left out is greatness... shaq is just greater than duncan, his game demands other things that numbers dont show

[D]

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Once again. Shaq is a Center. Duncan is a Foward. Fowards have 2 spots available for them every year on All-NBA teams, Centers have one. Giving Shaq the disadvantage since he had to go against Hakeem, Robinson on All-NBA Teams and Ben Wallace, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Alonzo on All-Defensive teams. Duncan would most likely have no more than 5 All-Defensive Team Selections if he was Center like Shaq

Your arguments are stupid like you[/FONT]

[poeticism707]

Great points, but it is still close. What puts Tim Duncan over the Top? Defensive accomplishments! Also, Tim Duncan has more season MVPs than Shaq, that's it! Just like Shaq has one more title.

[poeticism707]

the achievements were close, it was too close to call...

but one thing u left out is greatness... shaq is just greater than duncan, his game demands other things that numbers dont show

Why don't you just plug ESPN into the keyboard, then ESPN can type for you?

[D]

Great points, but it is still close. What puts Tim Duncan over the Top? Defensive accomplishments! Also, Tim Duncan has more season MVPs than Shaq, that's it! Just like Shaq has one more title.

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]Defensive Accomplshments? What defensive accomplishments? Does Duncan have a DPOY? Didn't think so. How many All-Defensive Teams would he have gotten if he was a Center? Answer that one[/FONT]

[ronron15]

I love how everyone is responding, but no one is addressing how Tim Duncan is so far ahead in defensive accomplishments, all nba, etc. Let's here some sound rhetoric!

duncan is a better defender overall, hes been to all defensive teams more than shaq...

shaq is greater tho, he was the mvp of a dynasty, he was the most dominant player on the planet, he was the reason for the "hack-a-(whoever)* tactic...

[Timmy D for MVP]

[QUOTE=D