What's the argument for LeBron NOT being the GOAT

[Hey Yo]

This post is so dumb I'm just gonna ignore it

Why are facts dumb to you?

[Leviathon1121]

Article from Feb. 10th, 2016


meh.

Nothing has changed based on any poll...ever 🤷*♂️

[SpaceJam2]

Why are facts dumb to you?

TheMan is a blind, MJ loving moron with no sense of judgement. He is severely lacking any semblance of analytical skills, likely due to his poorly developed brain and therefore critically limited mental capacity.

[RealSkipBayless]

TheMan is a blind, MJ loving moron with no sense of judgement. He is severely lacking any semblance of analytical skills, likely due to his poorly developed brain and therefore critically limited mental capacity.

I hear he is also into trannies

[SpaceJam2]

I hear he is also into trannies

You heard correct, my friend. In fact, his very avatar picture is that of a transvestite (i.e. Tranny).

[elementally morale]

I think honestly, it's been slightly disappointing an didn't live up to the potential he had with his teams. It's been a up and down thing with him. His lowest, being lower than most superstars that I can think of with 2011 Heat. His highest being 2016.

The fact that he teamed up with the Wade and Bosh, I always felt was a bit of a blow. And that he lost badly in 2011. Even in 2013 where the Heat won, LeBron played poorly or the Spurs just figured it out. Dared him to shoot, and he couldn't do it. He came through in the last two games, but it was still eh.

His time with the Cavs are better offensively. Defensively suffered.

MJ was the best consistently on the two way player. Best scorer, one of the best wing defenders. He dominated his era more so than other top players. Like when Wilt and Russell were against each other. Wilt dominated the stats, while Russell got the rings. Kareem was great, but his prime was in the 70s. His longevity was amazing, but when he won the bulk of his rings, he was arguably not the best player. It was 1a and 1b. And by the end of the last two, Magic was the best player.

MJ was the best throughout.

Statistically, LBJ and MJ are pretty much on par, but with LeBron leading several advance stats. Some of it is due to longevity, but in return, that's what makes MJ so great. He did it at a pace which was pretty crazy. And he was out most of the year in his second year, and retired a year and half in his prime. He accomplish more in less time than LeBron James. It took LeBron more time to pass him up points, some advance stats, and he still not there in terms of accolades. No DPOY, not enough MVPs, not enough rings or finals mvp, and etc.

LeBron has something over most stars. That's his longevity. He is a machine. He is still playing at a level that makes him top 3. MJ longevity is great too, but not as good as LeBron I would say. You could argue about the rules in today's game, coaching, and other stuff help the perimeter players nowadays compared to back then. And that's true. But it's still impressive.

But comparing them saying MJ wouldn't have done this or LeBron James wouldn't have done this is more juicy and fruitful discussion than it have any merit. You have to take into context the the rules and play styles, and they are too different in the 80s to now. But there are holes within LeBron James that I personally do not like and I feel like he isn't as skilled as MJ, Kobe or KD when it comes to scoring moves. He has a more limited move set, but unstoppable due to his athletic ability. FT shooting is a problem. Shooting in general is spotty.

There are a few players who have case for GOAT.

MJ cuz he dominated the league unlike no other. He did more in less time than LeBron. Got the best stats of his era, and some stats are still unbroken, and won at the same time. Maximize his team potential.

Kareem, longevity. Won at every level. Was a top player for like 16 years. Hold the records.

LeBron prove that he could carry a team to the finals who has no business of being there. He may surpass Kareem longevity, and setting records because of his consistent level of play. Dude is like the John Cena of the NBA lol

There are others tho.

I don't think there is a GOAT. I think there are tiers. LeBron belong in that GOAT tier to me. I mean, honestly. MJ at his peak, LeBron at his peak, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and etc. That's some of the best individual basketball you'll ever see in their era. They never played against each other peak to peak, so it's hard to say. Everything else comes with context. Who can carry their team, who maximize the most, who is the best individual player, who win the most? Some of those questions mean more to ppl than others. All are subjective to the person.

Very well said. I could argue a few minor points but I won't. It was well written ans was worth writing. A rarity these days here (and elsewhere). TY.

[72-10]

There's the painful fact that he's egregiously cheated his whole career and still cannot produce any semblance of a GOAT resum

[72-10]

LeBron has more skill than Alex English, but not a lot more skill, just a little more skill.

[StrongLurk]

MJ's entire existence.

[3ball]

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Lebron's worst series

2007 ECSF vs NJN:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 24.7 on 42.3%
2007 ECF vs DET:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 25.8 on 44.7%
2007 Finals vs SAS:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 22.0 on 35.6%

2008 ECSF vs BOS:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 26.7 on 35.5%

2010 ECSF vs BOS:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 26.8 on 44.7% (quit)

2011 RD 1 vs PHI:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 24.2 on 46.9%
2011 ECF vs CHI:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 25.8 on 44.7%
2011 Finals vs DAL:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 17.8 on 47.8%

2013 RD 1 vs MIL:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 24.5 on 60.7%
2013 ECSF vs CHI:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 23.6 on 43.8%
2013 Finals vs SAS:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 25.3 on 44.7%

2014 ECF vs IND:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 22.8 on 55.7%

2015 ECSF vs CHI:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 26.2 on 39.9%

2016 RD 1 vs DET:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 22.8 on 48.7%
2016 ECSF vs ATL:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 24.3 on 50.7%

It's funny because I just took the Pippen's worst series template and barely had to change the numbers..

MJ only has 2 series that compare - 96' Finals (27.3 on 41.5%) and 97' ECF (30.2 on 38.7%)..

(the 97' ecf shouldn't count because he averaged 30, and I omitted all lebron series where he averaged 30+ regardless of efficiency, aka 2015 playoffs)

[3ball]

.
Checklist


[ x ] 2011 Playoffs - the goat choke in sports history; teammate led for entire playoffs

[ x ] 3/9... aka weak championship record... aka low team ceilings

[ x ] low ring count compared to the goat standard of modern era (3 vs 6)

[ x ] 4 playoff losses when expected to win

[ x ] perennial underdogs with super-teams from 2011 to 2017 - lost or was underdog for 6 of 7 years

[ x ] needed 2 star teammates acquired via team-hopping to win all rings

[ x ] 2007 NBA Finals - worst performance ever by #1 option in the Finals.. the 22-year old underperformed Magic and MJ at the same age - Magic won FMVP at 20; MJ set playoff scoring record at 23 (44 ppg and 63 point game)

[ x ] scored less than teammate/carried in 4 different playoff series

[ x ] no MVP's for 6 straight years in his prime (14-19'), and 1 less MVP than the goat standard of 3-pointer basketball

[ x ] 9 less scoring titles than the goat standard

[ x ] only 37% on clutch shots in playoffs (10-27) and 0% in championship (0-8)

[ x ] only 5 years as elite defender and elite 2-way player (09-13')

[ x ] gave up 4 FMVP's to defensive assignment (3 different players including 2 role players)

[ x ] missed 2005 playoffs despite having the East 2-time all-star center on his team

[ x ] poor performances in many playoff series that were worse than MJ ever played (each series listed above in post #55)

[ x ] teammates prevented 3-0 deficit in 2013 Finals while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games and 23 on 43% thru 6; it was 2011 all over again until Ray Allen saved his career; net negative for series (heat lost with Lebron on floor)

[ x ] weak off-ball player - only elite on-ball, which doesn't fit with all player types or systems, thus lowering team ceiling, brand, and viability on the championship level, aka 3/9

[ x ] ball-dominant style turns teammates into spot-up shooters, which doesn't develop players/teams and requires ready-made stars acquired via collusion/cheating.. he simply avoided the career-losing fate of other ball-dominators by colluding for the extra talent this style needs to win

[ x ] marginalized many teammates including Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Derrick Rose, IT, Rodney Hood, Crowder, and many more

[ x ] many skill weaknesses - not a pure shooter or scorer; no midrange; weak post-game; no off-ball; can't consistently rely on jumper for big games, making him very exploitable

[ x ] turnover prone - no playoff runs without 3+ turnovers

[ x ] suboptimal offensive style - he starts at SF but then shares PG duties with the PG - this creates a 2 point guard lineup that gives teammates less time and assists than they get in 1-PG lineups, thus causing low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level, aka 3/9... this suboptimal style results from a SKILL DEFICIT where he can't get elite stats off-ball.

[ x ] the goat stat-padder - needed the highest time of possession/weakest ball movement ever to get good stats in 2015-2018 Finals - his teams are routinely massively out-assisted in the championship

[ x ] can't carry lottery casts to playoffs - missed playoffs 3 times with teams that were lottery the prior year (04', 05', 19') - aka couldn't drag lottery casts to low seeds/underdog matchups in 1st Round, and only made playoffs with high seeds, good teams, and easy 1st round matchups, thus inflating early playoff resume compared to other stars who were good enough to carry lottery casts to low seeds

[ x ] needed prime Pippen numbers or better from sidekick to win Finals (20/5/5 on 48% was worst sidekick performance in Finals)

[ x ] can't command double-teams due to weak jumper that rarely gets hot or requires getting the ball out of his hands; and his lack of off-ball game allows opponents to defend his long-dribble style, which is preferred over double-teaming and spurring ball-movement (Stan Van Gundy and Kerr let him dribble away - they wanted the ball in his hands).. so his weak jumper and long-dribble style prevents double-teaming and allows teammates to be guarded straight-up and locked down, like the 2009 ECF where he lost as the favorite, or the 2015 Finals where a better team effort would've beaten Curry/Klay (who are otherwise losers in the Finals, 8-10 without KD).


And so much more... too much to list all in one post.
.

[SpaceJam2]

.
Lebron's worst series

2007 ECSF vs NJN:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 24.7 on 42.3%
2007 ECF vs DET:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 25.8 on 44.7%
2007 Finals vs SAS:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 22.0 on 35.6%

2008 ECSF vs BOS:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 26.7 on 35.5%

2010 ECSF vs BOS:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 26.8 on 44.7% (quit)

2011 RD 1 vs PHI:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 24.2 on 46.9%
2011 ECF vs CHI:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 25.8 on 44.7%
2011 Finals vs DAL:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 17.8 on 47.8%

2013 RD 1 vs MIL:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 24.5 on 60.7%
2013 ECSF vs CHI:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 23.6 on 43.8%
2013 Finals vs SAS:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 25.3 on 44.7%

2014 ECF vs IND:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 22.8 on 55.7%

2015 ECSF vs CHI:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 26.2 on 39.9%

2016 RD 1 vs DET:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 22.8 on 48.7%
2016 ECSF vs ATL:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 24.3 on 50.7%

It's funny because I just took the Pippen's worst series template and barely had to change the numbers..

MJ only has 2 series that compare - 96' Finals (27.3 on 41.5%) and 97' ECF (30.2 on 38.7%)..

(the 97' ecf shouldn't count because he averaged 30, and I omitted all lebron series where he averaged 30+ regardless of efficiency, aka 2015 playoffs)

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico

[3ball]

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico

That post (#55) was a setup for post #56 above - respond to that one, if you can..

[SpaceJam2]

That post (#55) was a setup for post #56 above - respond to that one, if you can..

?

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico

[3ball]

?

MJ beat NOBODY

What was his best ring?

Let us know chico

… you couldn't even quote it because it was so potent.. sign of extreme weakness.. ..

you couldn't BEGIN to respond to it..

So now that I've thoroughly kicked your ass, I'll humor you by answering your question:

1998 was MJ's best ring because the completion of a 2nd three-peat made history as the goat modern achievement, aka better than peak Shaq could achieve (only 1 three-peat), while Kobe/KD/Lebron all failed to get even 1 three-peat.

And the 1998 Jazz beat Duncan/Robinson/Popovich, so they were better than Lebron's best comp - that ends whatever counter you have - the Jazz beat Duncan/Popovich, the team that you say is such great comp for Lebron..

They also beat Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley and swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers - so they beat the best comp ever to make a Finals (Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem)..

Of course, Stockton was the 2nd-best player on that Utah team, which is a higher-ranked 2nd player than Lebron ever faced before 2017.... Now let's hear about Hornacek you repetitive robot - get some new material, and some better/viable material this time..

The reality is that you can't compare rosters from a 2-star vs. 2-star era to the recent 3-star vs. 3 star era... obviously, if you gave those Jazz a 3rd star, they would beat pretty much any team in history, since they already took the goat team to 6 tight games with just 2 stars.
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